The 500 rule - tested (astrophotography)
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- Опубліковано 5 жов 2024
- This week I test the 500 rule in astrophotography. The 500 rule is the little calculation that you need to do so the stars in your shot are round star like!
I use the 500 rule every time I take a shot of the stars to get better photos....and I've tested it with all of my lenses to see how true it really is.
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Mike
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Hi Mike, I just want to say 'thank you' for making time to produce such educational videos, your channel is what people like me need who want to get into photography. Your hard work does not go unnoticed!
Thanks so much for your kind words! I have a lot of fun making these and it's great to hear that they are helping!
Thanks for watching 😁👍
Well, I used to make some astro photos with my Nikon 85 mm and APS-C sensor. The sweet spot was 2.5s even though 300/85 gives 3.5. Above 2.5, I started getting oval stars. I guess the rule has more tolerance for smaller focal lengths.
It also comes down to personal taste and tolerances. As Mp counts become higher, it is possible to get closer in to an image when looking at it at 100% so the level is constantly dropping.
I remember with the canon 5D mk1 it was the 600 rule ... and I bet now with the Sony A7rv, it probably has to be the 300 rule for that beast of a camera.
However if the image was just shared on instagram, it would probably still be the 500 rule ...
Great channel man; informative, high quality, no bs. Keep it up, subscribed!
Thanks Gabe! Really appreciate the comment and the sub. I’m loving the challenge of producing these videos so there’s lots more to come! 👍
The exposure time should vary not only depending on focal length and sensor size, but also on the sky area we are shooting. The stars near the Equator move faster than the stars in Polar regions. So if we shoot eg. Ursa Minor we can set longer exposure than for Orion with the same camera and lens.
That is a very good point. I’ll definitely make a note if that. Do you know what the variation is between the poles and equator?
@@mikesphotography If my trigonometry is correct and we assume that star's apparent speed (measured in degrees per a time unit) at equator (declination = 0 deg) is 100%, and longest acceptable time of exposure is 100%, then at different declinations we have:
dec | speed | time
0 | 100% | 100%
10 | 98,5% | 101%
20 | 94,0% | 106%
30 | 86,6% | 115%
40 | 76,6% | 130%
50 | 64,3% | 156%
60 | 50,0% | 200%
70 | 34,2% | 292%
80 | 17,4% | 576%
90 | 0,0% | infinite
This means for example that if the declination is 60 deg (e.g. Cassiopeia) the stars move 2 times slower than Orion's belt (declination about 0), so we can set 2 times longer time of exposure.
Wow! That’s a fantastic source of information! Thanks so much!! 👍
Thank you, Mike, for also adding the information about the crop sensor camera. I was not aware of that, I will try some shots with this new calculation.
Thanks so much. This calculation definitely helps in getting your settings right and the stars nice and round! 😁👍
I have the Rokinon 14mm 2.8 and I like to do 15s exposures too. It has some distortion but I think that it can handle very well for such a cheap lens. Nice video mike!
Thanks Otávio! It is definitely my go to lens when I want the majority of the milkyway in. And yes, a great budget lens. 👍
I’d love to try the Laowa 15mm f2 but it’s just so damn expensive!!
Great video, Mike! This rule has served me well for several years and I have many beautiful photos by using it. I’m getting a star tracker this week so I can ignore the rule, shoot lower iso and longer focal lengths. Ever tried one?
Hi Steven,
Its a good rule to follow isn't it, makes it easy to instantly get your exposure time and then you just have to play around with the iso to dial it in! 👍
That's excellent, you're going to love the shots you can get with a star tracker! I've been using one this year and I'm amazed with the colours I'm getting out of the milky way...and as well as using longer exposure times and lower ISOs and apertures, you can also use much longer focal lengths! It is a whole new thing to learn but it's pretty straight forward once you get your head around it all.
I have a video coming out soon where I compare stacking and tracking, going over the pros and cons for each...and I'll probably be making a how to track the stars tutorial later in the year. 👍
Thanks for watching!
With my Pentax K1 at 15mm I can easily shoot at 70 second exposures with no streaking - with the IBIS based AstroTracing.
Interesting. That sounds like a specialised function of the pentax cameras...👍
So helpful👍 thanks a lot for content🙏
No worries, thanks for watching. 😁👍
Wow. I was thinking; I could only take pictures without trails if the pictures were fast. And in some cases (wide angle) for more time. Now I realize that my rule is the 300 (I have the Canon 77D) and the 50mm 1.4f lens I was using is an EF and that makes a 80mm for my camera. So I have a 300/80=3'75 secs and the rule makes sense, because I can't take pictures longer than 4 secs if I want them without trails with this lens and this aperture. Now, I will try with the wide angle for 30 secs. THANX!!
Cool, great to hear your thoughts and calculations...they're spot on. 😁👍
I'm referring to this wonderful helpful video as I run off to the interior of British Columbia with my Zeiss 35mm f2.8 !! Very excited to see how it is going to be!
Awesome!! Let me know how you get on Paul! I bet the skies will be fantastic out there!! 👍
I think even the 500 rule gives you too long exposure times with that newer high res cams. On my A7iv with the Laowa 15/2.0 about 15s seem to be the absolute maximum before the stars get streched too much...
Thanks for sharing. You're probably right, as the resolutions get higher, the 100% crop viewing gets tighter and tighter, pushing this number down. Although it all depends on what you are going to do with the photos, if it is for the likes of instagram, the 500 rule is fine, but if you are making large prints, then the shorter the better ... or even stack and track to get the most detail. 🤔
When I first got into astrophotography, it was known as the 600 rule ... but now it should be more like the 300 rule.
Thanks for watching 😁👍
I'm not usually much of a pixel peeper, but I find that even slightly elongated starts really bug me. IMO, 500 mm seconds is WAY too high for FF, particularly when shooting near the equator. I prefer 200 or even less.
I know what you mean. Although when you crop in to 100% you’re effectively zooming in to that part of the sky ... so then if you were to use the 500 rule for that part of the image, at a guess, you’d be having to divide 500 by about 85-100 to get perfectly round stars.
The alternative is to start using a tracker so when done right, you’d get round stars all the time. 😁
The way I look at it is I think about how it’s going to be viewed...if it’s just social media, I use the 500 rule nearer the poles and the 400 rule nearer the equator ... if I really like the composition and I think I might print the image at a later date, I’ll get an extra one with a much lower shutter speed.
Great to hear your thoughts on the subject though. What lens do you normally shoot the stars with?
Really fantastic mike! I’m gonna try this out with my A7ii + Tamron 28-75
Awesome!! The 500 rule really comes in handy when getting pin point stars! and if you're closer to the equator, it's worth dropping it down to the 400 rule just to be on the safe side. 👍
Mike Smith Tnx mike!
thx so much, I appreciate this.
No problem, I hope it has helped! 😁👍
Hi Milke, first of all: a big thank you for the channel and a massive thumbs up. But then I have a question: as you are using a A7 in crop mode I assume you don't multiply the focal length by 1.5? That would be important for my calculations, for I am using an A6000 with full frame lenses. Thanx very much and keep up the good work.
Thanks very much!
For the a6000 I'd use the 300 rule, with my a7iii, I use the 400 or 500 rule.
Then there is no need to multiple the focal length by 1.5.
👍
@@mikesphotography Thanks a lot!
Thank you for this amazing and helpful video ❤✨ is this rule works for phone too ??
I researched this and found the NPF rule is more accurate as it takes into account the mega pixels of the camera. There's a calculator on photo pills .
What do you think Mike
Hi Patrick,
The NPF rule definitely gives you more pinpoint stars when pixel peeping or blowing the image up to A2 size or bigger, but when sharing to social media, the 500 rule is ok...so it all depends on what you're going to be doing with the image.
The NPF rule does mean you have to ramp up your ISO levels...so then you'd have to start stacking to get rid of the extra digital noise.
👍
Must be rules of thump.
There is huge difference between stars near the North stars and stars at the ground level
Definitely, the best way is to go out and test it all for yourself.
Thanks for watching 😁👍
Where does ISO settings fit into this equation?
Oh no, its very informative thanks :) i searched a lot and only found video comparison between 6500 and a7iii in terms of low light noise. If you do a video comparing both at same iso’s (exposed correctly) it would make a great video ;) because usually people just bump up the iso of each camera and it eventually clips and doesnt mean much for comparison. Thanks again ;) subscribed ;)
Awesome! Thanks Emre!
Yes definitely....I’ll have a hunt around and see if I can find one to play with! 👍 also thanks so much for the sub, really appreciate it! 😁
Can't you use registacks useful
Hey, Where do I get all of this information about my camera from? Where can I check if I have a Crop or a Full Frame Sensor? Where can I check my Lens?
Hey Timo,
If you google your camera name and "specs" it should give you all the details of your camera. What camera do you have? Maybe I can help...
Isn't this rule gonna change depending on where you are in the world??
That's a good question Joao. The closer you are to the equator, the shorter your exposure times will have to be. SO if I am in the uk, I can get away with the 500 rule and in Dubai, I notch it down to the 400 rule. THe best way is to test it out...different people have different tolerances to what they can put up with in their photos.
Thanks for watching 😁👍
Hiya I got the a7rii and Samyang 85mm f1.4 what settings would be ideal
With the 85mm, you will be severely limited with your shutter speed. I'd go with the 400 rule and this would give you an exposure time of 4.7 seconds. Anything longer than this would start to stretch the stars out. Consider a wider focal length or using a tracker to mitigate this. 👍
500 rule for my crop sensor camera(a6300 with sigma 16mmf1.4)
which formula will I use?
500/(16mm x 1.5) vs 300/16mm
For the crop sensor in the a6000 series, I’d go with the 300 rule.
I was just shooting last night with the a6500, used that rule and it worked really well!
@@mikesphotography thank you! I think the 18sec ss will still be alright considering i have an f1.4 lens
Most definitely!! I was shooting with the a6500 last night that I borrowed from a friend. I was pleasantly surprised at how well it did...I think I was getting about 15 seconds with an 18mm focal length, so you'll be fine with the sigma! 😁👍
Is this ‘rule’ really applicable to mft? It’s just that I shot a 6 second exposure of Venus using the short end of an OMZ 85-250 f5 and got a razor sharp starburst out of it. According to the ‘rule’ I should only have gotten the beginnings of star trails even if I’d used the calculation for 500!!! How say you, Mr Smith?
What is the megapixel count on your camera? And have you looked at it at 100%?
When you do look at the image on your monitor, it'll look OK, and you can bend the rule quite a bit, but when you blow the image up to poster size, you'll start to see the stars as ovals if you go much over the given shutter speed...but hey, it's your camera so you can keep that sukka open for as long as you want...
Thanks for watching. 👍
I have the Rokinon 20mm paired with the a7 iii, what ISO would you recommend?
What is the maximum aperture of your rokinon?
Mike Smith Sorry I guess I left that small detail out 😬 20mm F2
Haha! No worries. I’d say at f2 you could get the iso down to between 2000-5000, with a shutter speed of about 15-20 seconds. This would give you some nice Astro exposures. It also depends on how much moonlight there is about. If it’s a new moon (no moonlight), you might have to bump up the iso to get some detail in the landscape you include in the shot. If there is moonlight about, you can then play around with the iso.
I’d recommend going out and playing with the settings. I’ll normally take a few test shots and then use the zoom in feature to see how the stars are coming out. Then try different ISO’s and shutter speeds to see what works best.
The great thing with astrophotography is that, as long as it’s clear with no impending storms, you have at least a few hours to play with different settings and different compositions.
I hope that helps Michel. 👍
Mike Smith Thank you
Hey Mike, I have a Sony A5100 and recently bought a new lens - E50mm, F1.8 OSS
Applying the 300 rule as my camera is a cropped factor, that would leave me with 6 seconds of exposure.
Have yet to try any astro shots with my new lens, any advise?
That sounds about right. The 50mm is quite a tight framing but if you keep it to 6 seconds you should get clean looking stars.
Just start with a high iso and then bring it down as much as you can to lessen the noise in the shot.
With that crop I’d try and pick out details like prions belt or part of the milkyway....and if you have good visibility on the horizon try and get some of the ground in the shot to add something other than stars.
Also make sure you have plenty of time....I end up spending hours and hours under the stars!
I hope that helps. 👍
Hey Mike, do you think with a 1.8 lens A6500 is good for iso performance or does the A7iii is SIGNIFICANTLY better? What do you think? Is it worth getting rid of it and upgrading? (of course there is the crop factor thing which limits the wideness of lenses but I am ignoring that for this question) Thanks :)
Good question Emre! The a6500 is a great little camera and I’ve seen some amazing results with it. If you get a 1.8 lens, you’d definitely get some great shots.
Did you have a specific lens in mind?
I shot astrophotography for a long time with a canon cropped sensor body with a 10-20mm sigma and it worked just fine for me, and the a6500 is significantly more advanced than those old canons!
Although it is a great feeling buying new kit! 😁
Mike Smith thanks for the reply :) i usually use my 18-35 sigma art 1.8 or 10-18 sony f4
No worries. 😁 Do you use a speed booster with the sigma?
If not, it might be worth getting a faster superwide, like the samyang 12mm f2 so you have a faster lens than your f4 10-18mm.
Mike Smith No speedboosters as i know eventually will upgrade (hopefully a7iv :)) ) but a faster superwide is a great idea i will browse around foe the samyang , thanks ;) one question, how much noise do you get woth the a7iii at say 1600 or 3200 Mike? I mean there is no thing as “no noise” in astrophotography right?
Haha!! And knowing Sony, it won’t be too long before the mark iv comes out!! 😆
With noise, it all depends on how much ambient and added light there is. The a7iii is pretty good up to about 10000iso and I think I shot a few images at 16000 with some success.
I normally shoot at anywhere between 2000 and 6400. You do get noise with most cameras unless you have perfect conditions....and even then, you’ll get a slight bit of noise. It’s just how you manage it.
It would be interesting to test the a6500 against the a7iii to see how they cope. I don’t know anyone with one at the mo, but might have to see if I can get one to try out.
Sorry, lots of rambling there...I hope that all made sense.
👍
Hi Mr.Smith...i have a problem with my camera(Sony A7r ii) and Batis Lens(18mm f2.8)....as i follow the 500 Rules for astrophotography and take shot with my Sony A7r ii and 18mm Batis(without Tracker),Stars begin to trail from 12" Exp(even in the center of photo)....i dont know why!!! is that depend on 42MP resolution of sensor ?
With the higher megapixel sensors, they give you the ability to zoom in a lot more to get to the 1 to 1 crop. Inevitably with all this resolution, the rotation of the earth will be visible when viewing the image this closely.
Can you see the trails when you're viewing the image as a whole?
There is another way to calculate your shutter speed and that is with the NPF technique. With the a7rii and the 18mm batis, the 500 rule would give you an exposure time of 28 seconds, but the npf rule takes into account your sensor size and calculates it at 6.2 seconds... I'm going to do a video on it as soon as I get out under the stars again...
If you have the app photopills, in spot stars, it gives you the npf rule shutter speed value when you tell it what camera and lens you will be using. 👍
@@mikesphotography No I can not see trails as i view whole image, even 1:3 Crop mode....Thank You So much , Now i can figured out what happen to 500 rules and the Resolution of sensor.
What about Aperture and ISO? :)
You basically have to shoot with a wide open aperture and then set the ISO to get a good exposure.
I have a video on astrophotography where I go through exactly how to get the right settings. It is with the A7iii but you can apply the rules to any camera with manual mode.ua-cam.com/video/XPVEEiYZQCI/v-deo.html
Thanks for watching 😁👍
Interesting how you argue that a poorer quality image taken with the same camera justifies the claim that FF is much better for astrophotographer.
Umm...I think you're missing the point. This video is not about whether full frame or cropped sensors are better. I just show people which rule to use with what camera and what sensor size but thanks for your input.
I'm quite confused is the oval what I want? or the sharp circles? I guess it's whatever I want preference wise right?
ah ok circle it is Hhahaha
You got it! 😁 it’s the sharp circle...although I have a photo that I really like hanging on my wall...when you look closely, the stars are quite oval like...it’s all down to personal tolerances. 😁👍
@@mikesphotography Haha, I think it's quite cool going for the streak ones if you're doing a time lapse, as it has those trails. But still, I can understand! What do you think? I really want to also start getting my prints on my wall.
It’s great when you do get a good photo and print it out. It really does show what you need to work on but it also shows you what you got right...well worth doing!
With timelapses, I make sure I get them as circles so then I can get stills anytime throughout the sequence.
👍
Hello, video very useful for me, thank you very much. I've got D 7200 and I am using Sigma 10-20 mm for astrophotography,is my camera has got crop censer? Could you kindly advice me please.
Thanks so much. I’m glad it has helped.
The d7200 is a crop sensor so you need to use the 300 rule.
At 10mm you’ll have 30 seconds of exposure time, at 20mm you’ll have 15 seconds.
I hope that helps 👍
Thanks Mike .
hello Mike, I did my trail with your 300 rule it worked absolutely fine, thanks again.
That’s great siddhartha!! I’m glad I could help! 😁👍
What if I use an adapter on a crop sensor to mount a full-frame lens on it.
Which rule should I use, 500 or 300?
For example, I use a Canon M50 with an adapter so what I usually do is for a 10mm lens 500/(10x1.6 crop factor) or 500/16mm = 31.25 seconds.
Is it right?
Or should I use 300/(10x1.6) or 300/16mm = 18.75 seconds?
Please help; thank you.
If it is an adapter, just do what you are doing. Which is basically the 300 rule, give or take a few digits ...
If it was a speed booster, this would then let you use the 500 rule.
Thanks for watching 😁👍
@@mikesphotography Thanks for replying; it cleared my doubts.
Keep delivering the excellent content 🤗
Hey mike, i've use m50, am i use the 300 rule?
Hi Gusti, yes, the 300 rule would be good for the M50. 😁👍
@@mikesphotography so if i use viltrox speedbooster adapter, am i still use 300 or change to 500?
I have full frame camera with 24-70mm lens . How do i determine perfect shutter speed ?
So whatever your focal length is set to for the shot you're about to take, divid 500 by that number. So if you're on 70mm it would be about 7 seconds and if you were on 24mm, it would be about 20 seconds. With the numbers next to the zoom ring, just work out how far you're zoomed in/out and then work out your rough focal length from that and then use this calculation. 👍
@@mikesphotography thank you
Distortion huh? kaabbbooommmm with lens correction profile.
That is true....but it can only get rid of a certain amount of distortion...much better to get a lens with less distortion so the pixels don't get so warped when the computer program is trying to fix the problem.
Thanks for watching. 😁👍
but does it still count if your using a f1.4 lens,
Yes, it counts no matter what your f-stop is. Your wider aperture will just let in more light so you will get a better exposure at lower shutter speeds and iso levels. But you will still have to keep the shutter speeds within the limits of the 500 rule.
Great video!
As I understand, if pixel density is bigger, this rule can change a little bit. We now have full frame sensors with the same pixel density as a crop sensor, because of this, I guess you need to change 500 maybe to 600 so you can have round stars.
Have you use this rule with a high pixel density full frame sensor? Something around 45 to 59 mega pixel camera.
Guillermo, with the larger megapixel sensors, you have to go the other way. It used to be the 600 rule, now it is the 500 rule. With a super high megapixel camera it would have to be the 400 rule.....unless you mean with a medium format camera....and that then throws a massive spanner in the works!!
Basically the higher the megapixel count, the more you can zoom in, therefore the less time you can leave the shutter open before you’ll start to see the streaks in the stars.
The different rules tend to work with the size of the sensor. So crop sensors aps-c would be 300, full frame would be 500 and medium format would be about 600-700....at a guess!
Does that make sense?
Hi Mike, yes totally makes sense. The idea is to avoid a star to jump to the next pixel and start making a trail. Because high density sensors have pixels nearest to each other, as you mentioned we have less time to avoid this "jump" to the next pixel.
I made a mistake with my comment, yes the rule should change the way you mentioned.
Thanks for your reply, have a great day!
That’s a really interesting way to think about it...in not giving it too much time to form on two separate pixels....thanks for that! 👍
So do you have a really high megapixel camera!?
so...what is the rule when I use my tracker? LOL.
Make sure it's properly polar aligned. Having a tracker means being able to use longer exposures or lower ISO or aperture or higher f-stop.
With a tracker there are no rules!! 😆 ... apart from polar alignment...