@2:30ish - Gollum doesn’t choke because the Lembas is dry. He chokes for the same reason that the elven rope made him feel like it was burning and freezing him: the corruption of the ring makes him sensitive to items made by elves; particularly those from Galadriel’s realm, which not only is populated with elves that have returned from the Uttermost West and have lived in Valinor; but also the influence of Nenya plays a role. In any event, it is the purity of these items, and those that made them, that cause poor, corrupted Gollum’s suffering. They are antithetical to him.
A lot of the travelling throughout the trilogy takes place at night in the books, but at day in the movies. I guess two reasons. First, glorious landscape shots instead of dark scenes that make the movie quite gloomy. Secind, it's much easier to film during the day.
They were also (mostly) never in such a rush that they didn't have time to eat a snack and take a nap. In fact, the closer that the hobbits got to Mt. Doom, the more they had to stop and rest to try and conserve energy.
As a kid, there was one very short scene I LOVED of the animated LOTR because it had Frodo and Sam (and Gollum?) traveling at night which created the oppressive atmosphere that fit their suicide mission. Some things that film did right
@@randyfrakes6667 But to the viewer the cave troll in Moria also got him until we say his mithril armour. All his near deaths had proper raesons he survived not just - leave the audience shocked for a while then come bakc and have him say, "I think Ill be OK after all". Like in Game of Thrones Season 8 Battle at Winterfell: Show character get swarmed and overwhelmed by wights. Cut away to another scene. Cut back and show that they are OK. So lazy and pathetic.
The ents were my favorite part about the books when I read them in 2001. I was so disappointed with how they were left out in so many ways in the movies, with the removal of quick beam and a lot of their time together. I think the worst change to the what’s in the movie though, hands down, is that the creatures most known for “not being hasty” make a hasty decision to attack Isengard. In the books, the decision is somber, and they know they are likely going to all die, and yet they decide to anyway. And the song!
I feel like their hasty decision is still in line with how they were presented in the books. Treebeard had never thought of Saruman doing such a thing, and now that he realizes the grave nature of what's going on, he decides to make a bit of a hasty decision. I mean, after seeing so many of your friends dead and industrialized by one of your supposed friends, that would have to hurt more than anything. He also says before he leaves that they likely will not return, so that mixed with the wonderful music I think portrays the emotion from the book very well, although it is maybe more epic seeming than it was in the book. I would say his retaliation was still in line for the character, as Treebeard of course had a VERY deep love for nature and all things beautiful and would want to do something about such hatred right away. That's just my opinion, however.
I agree. LOTR by Jackson is an absolutely amazing production despite all the criticized variations from the book. It is an amazing piece of cinematography, scripting, acting and SFX. However, the book evokes far more emotion than the film because Tolkien was an amazing writer.
I think LotR is now in the same allegory class as Morte d'Arthur where many authors and screenwriter interpret to story in their own way. This does not detract from Jackson's interpretation; rather it shows the richness of JRRT's work and it's position in our metaphorical and allegorical societal structure.
According to Professor Tolkien, Allegory rests in the ‘purposed domination of the author’ for the meaning that it has. Check the Fellowship Preface. His works may have many layers of metaphorical meaning, which gives them depth and room for myriad interpretations; but he intentionally avoided lacing the narrative with any allegorical meaning to the best of his ability. I agree with much of your point; but my OCD had to put suggestions of allegory to rest.
Treebeard hearing the voices first is something the Bakshi film got right! In the books Treebeard also says that if he hadn't heard them first he would have stepped on them! 😂
Jackson should have left it like it was in the book. The marsh should not have open flames, but ghost like lights, Gollum says they are candles of corpses, and not to look at them, or follow them. You said Gollum said the battle was when he was young before the Precious came, but he says he was told of the great battle long ago.
Glad you pointed this out. I was going to. In the movie, Gollum says, "don't follow the lights" but there are no lights. In the book, the lights were down in the water with the corpses.
there is a phenomenon where decomposing matter in bogs can catch fire and burn for a very long time. This is what Tolkein was describing - but through the eyes of the hobbits who didn't know this and therefore saw them as ghost-like lights. Similar bogs are all over England - Tolkein would have known this phenomenon well
I prefer the book's coverage of this journey. There's more time to explore the interpersonal dynamics of the group, and I enjoy Gollum's frankly sarcastic personality. * * * * * * But in a little while [Gollum] stopped suddenly and sniffed the air doubtfully, hissing as if he was troubled or displeased again. ‘What is it?’ growled Sam, misinterpreting the signs. ‘What’s the need to sniff? The stink nearly knocks me down with my nose held. You stink, and master stinks; the whole place stinks.’ ‘Yes, yes, and Sam stinks!’ answered Gollum. ‘Poor Sméagol smells it, but good Sméagol bears it...' _- The Passage of the Marshes_
Originally, after Frodo reminds Gollum his real name, it was going to show the flashback of Sméagol's backstory of how he found The Ring and how it transformed him into Gollum (which Gandalf tells Frodo in the kitchen of Bag End in chapter three of The Fellowship of the Ring) but during the editing, Jackson thought that it slowed down the pace of the movie so he cut it from the theatrical version. He then thought of use it for the Extended Version but then said to Fran Walsh (the producer and co-writer) "You know what? Let's save it for The Return of the King" which is how it ended up in the third movie. On a side note, I think how the order of the scenes in the movie fits the pacing better than how it is in the book as they wouldn't work as smoothly for a movie. Remember that you can take all the time you want in a book but for a movie it needs to have a steady pace so you don't get bored to fall asleep (like Merry and Pippin does to Treebeard's poetry in the next scene with them), therefore you can't drag for too long or be confused on how it is structured, like a bumpy road and you want it to be as smooth as possible.
I do have to say I do like watching these videos because as someone who has only seen the films. Its actually surprising when learn that a scene was completely made up and did not appear in the books. I actually assumed that everything we seen in the movie is what happened in the books. That shows how well written this film series is they are integrated so well. Like for example the battle of Helms deep (spoilers but of course everyone probably already knows) the Elves were not there in the books however I did not learn that until after I saw the film and it was shocking. I literally thought it was in the books that elves would show up because it is a perfect parallel to the last Alliance. Elves and Men fighting along side each other against the darkness once more. It felt like something Tolkien would write. It the same story with The Hobbit when it comes to Tauriel, I was shocked that she was made up for the movie because she felt so well integrated and I just assumed that every character we see in the movie was in the book. That just shows how well written a lot of this stuff is.
I loved Gollum in the movies, especially in the second one. Many alterations to characters like Treebeard, Theoden, Aragorn and Faramir caused me quite to dislike the "Two Towers", at least it's the movie I'm least attached to. But the Gollum/Smeagol scenes were brilliant. And they are the most important reason for watching TT again. I like the look of Treebeard but I quite dislike his actions because they go so much against anything written in the books. I would have loved it if PJ had sticked a bit more to his true character.
I prefer the relationship between Frodo and Gollum in the book but it wouldn’t have worked so well in a movie setting I don’t think. Jackson made the right choice.
I have officially binged all the LotR you've done. Definitely appreciate your content, and I'm glad to have gotten to discover you by sheer happenstance.
Treebeard was a struggle when Weta Workshop designed him for many reasons. One of them is that Peter Jackson wanted to avoid copying the Ralph Bakshi version which he thought wasn't great and referred him as a "walking, talking carrot" (onsindering his orange skin, I see where he gets it at 😆). Tolien illustrator and concept artist of the movie John Howe have previously in book illustraions avoided to draw him in full as he wasn't sure how much tree-to-man ratio he was going to do ("Is he a man shaped like a tree or is he a tree shaped like a man?"). One of the Weta concept designers Daniel Falconer, who made a lot of the elven designs like Rivendell and Lothloríen, had Treebeard in his head when he read the book as a kid and drew him based on his mind's design, hence how Treebeard was designed. For the close up shots with Merry and Pippin, Treebeard was made into a large animatronic puppet which was operated by several people, two was running the arms, two for swaying him back and forth to make him look like walking and one was radio controlling his head movements and eyes plus a couple of guys walked around holding branches to cast of the shadows on the puppet and Dominic Monaghan and Billy Boyd to similute movement as Treebeard walks through the forrest. Also was Richard Taylor off-screen yelling "Left! Right! Left! Right!" to guide the rythm off the walk. In addition John Rhys-Davies sat off screen and read Treebeards lines (which he would recorded in post-production, with the voice recording being played through a wooden tunnel to make it more, literally, wooden and echoey, Rhys-Davies wondered at first how an ent should talk as trees don't have lungs, so he decided on speaking on the inhales rather on the exhales). For making the tree bark on Treebeard's skin look realistic, Weta put on euraphane onto acrual trees and brought the molds back to the workshop to make the bark which they put on the puppet. The beard was done as a weave made from air roots and mosses. Also they put in a detail that is hard to see is the shell of a Kaori snail which is unfortunatley an endangered species in New Zealand due to a pest that was introduced by the early settlers, making it rare. They also put real branches on the puppet's body. When Treebeard holds up the Hobbits, Monaghan and Boyd sat on bicyce seats that was in Treebeard's hands, which unfortunatley squished their testicles to the point that Dominic Monaghan thought that'd never thought he was goingt to get kids (if it's true or not is unkknown, as he hasn't been a relationship since his relationship with Evangeline Lilly, his co-star from Lost, who'd later play Tauriel in The Hobbit trilogy, and haven't got any kids yet, Boyd on the other hand have a son named Jack William Boyd, with his wife Alison McKinnon). For the wide shots Treebeard was naturally done as a CGI character, The rendering on Treebeard was so complex that the rendering time took 48 per frame (in rendering time). Since the head wasn't so expressive, Jim Rygel and the computer guys at Weta Digital discussed what to animate. First they were just going to just aimated the eyes and the mouth but after a few mintues, they dropped the idea and decided to just replace the whole head with a CG version to make it as expressive as possible but took in mind that he had to have less expressions compared to other creatures as it'd seem unnatarual if his bark-like skin stretched like skin does so they walked a fine balance how much/little streching his skin does as he talked or gave expressions.
Meriadoc is the one who has a clearer sense of where the two hobbits are in the book, as he was the one who'd spent some time looking at maps in Rivendell. Meriadoc's also the one who is more willing to go into Fanghorn early on, not just because it makes more sense, but because (as a Brandybuck) he's also got some familiarity with old forests. This is a fantastic series, by the way, and I've created a YT account just to comment on this. Keep up the great work!
Thanks for watching! And yes, it’s funny the parallels that Merry draws between the Old Forest and Fangorn. Especially because of their trip earlier on in the book into the Old Forest, they seem to be veterans in terms of forest exploration. 😎😂
I never understood why the film had Treebeard tricked into going to war; it was so contrived. How did the hobbits know where to lead Treebeard to so he could see his toppled "tree friends"? They didn't know Saruman had begun a mass destruction of trees whereas Treebeard, having spoken to Gandalf after his re-appearance, would probably have known exactly that.
Me neither. In the books, Merry and Pippin were a catalyst, the last drop that made a long-simmering pot boil over, whereas the movie Ents were incapable of any action until someone came and made them. When the same pattern repeated in Gondor all over, I felt like howling.
Only 2 scenes? He left so much of the book on the floor and added imagination to the movie I had to re-explain it to quite a few people. I did enjoy it, just prefer J.R.R.'s original work. Well done. Really well done. Thank you. Take care.
You have to admit however that the scenes with the magnificent Ents were loooong and draaaaawn out as they should have been. Ho-hum,hmrph....I love Treebeard's 'poet-tree, 😂' I could listen to such a creature forevermore.
The more times I read the books and watch the movies, the more I appreciate how Jackson made choices that both respected the core mythology of LotR and made them good films. My heart says this is what JRRT hoped for when creating a modern mythology
It's been said that Tolkien was telling the story to be read from a book...and Jackson was telling a story to be experienced on a screen. Had it been for a film, Tolkien may very well have made the same changes. Similar words are rumored to have come from the Tolkien Estate itself.
I think these changes are fine. It's a change for a visual medium. We have to see these things not be told about them. Also I love that the Ents are walking trees. Again because of the visuals.
I love them both. The fact is that most of the Two Towers, Sam and Frodo are just walking. Currently nearing the end of the Two Towers book, and the latter half takes place during The Return of the King. Adding drama is a little annoying, but makes the chapters about them being miserable while walking and walking and walking something more to watch.
wow this was illuminating because the appearance of treebeard was always one of my favorite scenes in the films- the character was always something that i think was kind of a brilliant conception but now im really conflicted. i think the "look" of treebeard in the films is superior honestly, but i think jackson's re telling of this whole thing was weak. yes it builds tension but it tracks more that treebeard didnt know about hobbits, because they are constantly overlooked (something that has always triggered the question in my mind, what and who are the hobbits a metaphor for?--if they are a metaphor.) grishnakh chasing them into the forest and then being killed by treebeard is so serendipitous for merry and pippen that it beggars belief, as does treebeard stepping on something and not investigating what he stepped on, which would have cleared up that merry and pippen were not orcs at all. (who steps on a foreign object and doesnt look to see what they stepped on?) the travelling of frodo and co. during the day also in hindsight makes absolutely no sense, since it is pretty common sense to move under the cover of darkness in stealth- i wonder if this was done to keep gollum from seeming super creepy all the time/justify the cgi budget/give andy sirkis more room to flex?- no idea honestly. all these jumbled decisions and 180's from the book are completely nonsensical. great video.
I do not think that these were "jumbled" oder "nonsensical" decisions. The film team really gave intensive thought to all the alterations they made. There were reasons of storyline and pacing, timing and visualisation. We as individuals might not like these decisions. But they were necessary for turning this epic book trilogy into marvellous films. I myself do not like all their changes of plot, timeline or characterisation, but I adored the movies right from the very first time of seeing the Fellowship of the Ring in cinema. They are masterpieces. They would not have been, had they sticked 100% to everything in the books. I just imagined the scene of Merry and Pippin meeting Treebeard. After the excitement of escaping the battle the pacing slows down to two hobbits calmly ambeling through Fangorn, eating, joking, complaining a bit about the stiff air, climbing the rock shelf, looking out into the world and the sky, enjoying the spell of sunshine and having light conversation. And then Treebeard talking to them and getting to know them and telling them about the Ents and making new rhymes. This is a joy to read - but I think it would be ghastly boring to watch.
Hah, trusting Gollum because he resqued Frodo? It was clear right away that he didn't want the ring to be lost! :D I still haven't read the books completely, by the way. However, I always did wonder why Gollum was so cheerful and helpful, bringing them to Mordor.
It is fun and informative to see the movie scene to the book differences, but it doesn't diminish my appreciation for Jackson's LOTR. What a Masterpiece of cinema this was, complete with how it hasn't aged any more from when it came out to right now would be to an Ent. An instant classic and timeless piece of work. As for the comparison between the two forms of media, I'm so impressed that Jackson adaptations were so very much in the spirit of the source material. These are fun and very well done reviews.
My biggest gripe with the movies is how much time is spent on the battles and how much character and dialogue was lost. Also, the Tom Bombadil part is critical as the weapon that kills the Nazgûl king was obtained there
This series is very interesting. I never really liked how the film introduced treebeard because he's just sleeping there so it's a one in a million chance that he would be the tree the hobbits climb.
In my humble opinion, when doing a movie of a book series that has been so popular, should try their utmost to stick to the book. It does have one benefit however, that when someone watches the movies and recognize the differences, it inevitably seems to cause many to research even further into the story almost ad nauseum.😜
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This is a rare case where I can't really figure out why the changes were made. And, absent a solid reason, I feel it should've been kept closer to the book.
I do have a love for these movies for the source material that DID make it into them, but I think Peter Jackson can be a bit hacky. The scene where Treebeard literally man handles the massive iron gate of Isengard being left out was, I thought, a dam tragedy.
I rather like the changes for the film, it builds tension. The Dead Marshes being some spooky evil that perhaps Sauron is behind shows that even the lands beyond Mordor are becoming blighted. Treebeard being more tree than man is also a neat visual distinction at the variety of creatures in the world. But the biggest change in Gollum's character I like better in the film. It feels more hopeful that even Gollum, who was a creature enslaved to the ring for so long, may yet find a way to escape its grasp.
I noticed many changes from the book when I watched the first film and struggled with how it altered the story. Eventually I rationalized it as the movie is the directors attempt at telling the story and He made many changes to make the story shorter and easier for an audience to follow and be drawn into it. I came to the conclusion that it was after all the best version of the story at this time and the special effects are really good. If He followed the books exactly I think it would have taken 5 or 6 films to do it in and people may have never gone to see the second film if He included Tom Bombadil and the barrow downs, which were mini adventures that bonded the hobits closer together but didn't have anything to do with the main story other than providing the hobits with a few elvish weapons.
I love the movies as their own creation but I really wish they stuck closer to the books. Like Legolas is practically merry in the books and in the movie he is all "mysterious" and overly serious. I'm just really glad that Jackson decided not to put Arwen into the fight at Helms Deep even after he filmed her there.
I was really hoping to see, on video, the "fighting style" of the Ents that was described in the text. Tolkien wrote that the damage an Ent brings is like watching the countless years of root growth and destruction through seemingly impenetrable objects, except said destruction takes place in a matter of seconds, rather than centuries.
The best decision Jackson made was removing the singing, so taking the gollum song out was in no way sad. It would have been a really strange movie with them in. Some of the changes are simply the visualisation that is the only way a movie can demonstrate something whereas a book can describe. I think alot of the changes aren't really changes
Jackson still showed the arc from bad to good and it works well on film and then it develops. I feel like as long as the themeing is the same it's fine. Sometimes details change.
The ents are one of Tolkien’s most original things and one of my favorite parts of LotR, and Jackson did ‘em dirty. He passed over almost all of it, then made the battle - one chapter - most of the film.
I disagree. Saving some of the best parts of the Ents to discover for those who choose to read the books after being inspired to do so from watching the movies is a good thing in my book.
A deleted bit from the film would have payed homage to the Treebeard's list of creatures saying "You're not on the old list.". This was cut probably due to pacing.
Ah yes, pacing.....which would have made sense were it not for the additional 45 minutes of material, not in the books, that Jackson added to The Two Towers.
As a long-time fan of the book, I definitely felt confused by the changes to how Treebeard dealt with Merry and Pippin. Treebeard, as one of the very oldest entities in Middle-Earth (bar Tom Bombadil, who's referred to as the Eldest by Elrond) had a lot of confidence in his own ability to slowly, carefully, and methodically assess the strange new creatures he managed not to mistake for orcs! The idea that this figure would simply defer judgement to a young whippersnapper of a Wizard seemed bizarre to me! And narratively for the movie, there was just no need for suspense or tension at that moment, we'd had plenty of that with the battle and escape. it would definitely have worked better with a softer, easing of tension and showing Treebeard conversing with the hobbits just a she did in the book.
I got the impresion that, in Jackson's version, the Lembas has some form of spiritual goodness or holiness baked into them. Everything made by the elves has a kind of holiness to it, which purifies whatever it touches. Gollum, who is totally corrupt, is being purified by the holy elven elements. He says, "It tries to choke us!" I'm not totally sure Tolkien specifically intended this, but it is a vague picture of the power of Jesus Christ. Normally whenever a defiled or filthy thing touches an undefiled or clean thing, the defilement is transmitted to the previously undefiled thing, ruining it. This is why we must be careful what we subject our eyes, ears, and mind to. We are very easily defiled by the world's spiritual corruption, and we have zero ability to clease ourselves of that spiritual corruption. But whenever our King Jesus touches anything, the defilement is removed, and the sin purged. While I don'tassume that Tolkien personally had saving faith in Christ alone to make him able to stand in the presence of the Holy One, he nonetheless knew much theology of the Church of Rome (which adherents call 'Catholic'). Thus, he knew well the absolute realities of holiness and corruption, and they are major themes affecting all of his fantasy. His story really is about Good versus Evil, not just Team A versus Team B, which is all a person can have when they foolishly declare the silliest of faiths that "there is no God," and thus, "nothing exploded and created everything."
Gollum cant eat the bread because magic. Just like he can't bear the elven rope, and in the book, Sam and Frodo speculate on if the rope is actually hurting Gollum, though it's not tied tight, but because it was made by elves. Gollum says in the movie they travel by night, sleep in the day, likewise in the book, and they do both in both.
I always felt that Gollum's apparently genuine pain from the rope was nonsensical. He wasn't an intrinsically evil being and there's no reason why elvish items would be any more harmful to him than the hobbits.
@@FoolsMasque “Frodo: 'It's a pity Bilbo didn't kill Gollum when he had the chance.' Gandalf: 'Pity? It's pity that stayed Bilbo's hand. Many that live deserve death. Some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them, Frodo? Do not be too eager to deal out death in judgment. Even the very wise cannot see all ends. My heart tells me that Gollum has some part to play in it, for good or evil, before this is over. The pity of Bilbo may rule the fate of many.' Frodo: 'I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.' Gandalf: 'So do all who live to see such times, but that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides that of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring, in which case you were also meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought.” ― J.R.R. Tolkien
I liked Treebeard's physical depiction in the movie. My imagination couldn't have come up with anything better. I wish there had been MORE Treebeard and more Pippen and Merry, but that wouldn't have worked for the movie run-time or continuity. When I first saw the movies 20 years ago, @Fact or Fantasy, I was so upset at all the changes. The books are still superior works of art but I've reconciled myself to the movies. And sometimes the movies are better. Gandalf and Co. entering Edoras and Gandalf casting away Saruman's influence over Théoden was waaaaaaay better constructed in the movie than in the book. When I went back and read the chapter after having seen the movie, I thought Tolkien's scene was rather dull and lackluster. Score one for Philippa Boyens.
Agreed! I like how the Ents look. Maybe it’s because I haven’t seen a better alternative, but making them look tree-ish just makes sense to me. Plus, I saw the movies first and THEN read the books so I love both formats. Obviously certain things fit better in different mediums. And yea, some of Theoden’s best lines aren’t even ones pulled from Tolkien, but rather Boyens’ work. 👀
How dare you use facts and have an unbiased opinion on the differences between the books and movies ! First time coming across your videos and I’d have to say this is some great LOTR content.
The movies made it seem like Treebeard was indifferent until Merry and Pippin came along. Tolkien described the Ents' anger as a long-brewing flood precipitated by the arrival of Merry and Pippin. Peter Jackson really screwed up my favorite character and The Two Towers in general. I really don't love the LOTR movie trilogy and haven't rewatched any of the films after seeing them once in the theaters. Sure, it's a movie. But it's not the same story as the book when it could have been.
Films are a different medium and allowances need to be made to adjust to that medium. Now some of the film changes work well. Others less well. But overall it works for the medium it was made for.
I like having the 2 versions! Both are Masterpieces! (Even if after reading the books watching them in theaters had a few scenes that were HIGHLY FRUSTRATING and I don't even care about the elves at helms deep! But after all these years, I highly appreciate both for their own version... BUT OBVIOUSLY TOLKIEN'S VERSION IS BEST!)
At first I wasn't initially happy with Treebeard or the other ents looking like bunches of hard-skinned celery. The book was clear that they were more humanoid looking and personally, I always suspected that it was ents that Morgoth 'twisted' into the race of trolls.
Thank you for pointing out that Jackson's ents were not at all book-accurate. Few have said so, though it is the truth. Skin isn't bark! Oh well, Jackson's introduction to the world of LOTR was through Bakshi. Take a look at Treebeard in that animated film. We can see that although Bakshi's LOTR was a failure and Jackson's a resounding and enduring success, Bakshi nevertheless left his mark. The books are the best.
It looked like someone just went overboard with the branches and knots and no one had the heart to tell them😛 Under all that there may still the same being. I think YT ate my other comment, so yeah, don’t forget the “old stump of a tree” with two “branches left”. Now bringing it together, and adding more thoughts😛: With all the descriptions together, it kinds of alternates between tree-ish and human-like: Overall shape is humanoid, silhouette can be perceived as tree-like, the form of each body part is human(even what looks like it could be clothing), the appearance of each body part is tree-like. And THEN there’s the actually flesh, which is…well, I’d say something other than wood.
I think Jackson did it justice. Sure some changes weren't necessary. But film adaptations inevitably require some creative license when adapting nearly 500k words.
I find PJ's overall handling of the Ents underwhelming but given the time constraints, this was - unfortunately - something that could be reduced without severely impacting the main storyline. - That said, though, I mightily disapprove of tricking Treebeard into the war with Saruman, that should have been the Ents' own decision. Another issue I have with this part of the movie is changing the wonderful creepiness of the Dead Marshes into a cheap jumpscare.
I've nearly lost friendships debating the LotR books versus the movies. 🤐 The movies are GREAT movies, but mediocre-to-poor adaptations, as is nearly always the case with Hollywood. If you're not familiar with the books (and at least 9/10 people aren't), then that's fine. If you're familiar with the books and have a fondness for them, the movies can be traumatic. Personally, I'd've done cartwheels if Jackson hadn't flubbed around with Tolkein's work... but that's just not how Hollywood has ever worked. I can sit through and generally enjoy the LotR movies, although I can't help but wince at several of Jackson's choices. I barely associate them with the books, as almost all the little details that made the books special to me are altered or omitted altogether. That said, I find "The Hobbit" to be a completely unwatchable nightmare. Just sayin'. YMMV.
The films are wonderful. I find very little to complain about with any of the three. The Hobbit is a different matter, but even those I appreciate more and more over time. But they really can’t compare to the books. The films do a great job of reflecting the books’ greatness. They hold their own greatness as well. The bottom line is that the films deserve the praise they have been given and I am always cautious about any criticism of it. But the books will always rule.
One problem with the movie version is Treebeard thinking they are Orcs when they look nothing like Orcs. Still, I love both versions. Each is appropriate for its purpose.
Books are more about style and consciousness, films about visuals and structure. The book is better IMO, but the film is adapted to work for the screen. They're both fantasy, but otherwise are two very different genres, while the book is about a piece of history in middle earth, an adventure through a fantastic world and everything to do with it, and is much more character driven, the film is much more plotty and action-blockbuster based with the elements of the books being more of a backdrop. If you're a film fan and don't really care about the depth, the film is great - but if you want something more, the books are vastly superior. In terms of book and film, both have plot, but the films are more scene by scene, with the characters existing in the string of scenes, where the book reverses this, and the characters drive the scenes that come and the flow of the story feels much less plotty/contrived, and more organic. While there is some development in the films, the characters are basically the same thing throughout, just with some trauma or a change of clothing; the book really emphasizes the change building up, and the contrast between the early chapters and the Scouring of the Shire is a great show of the change they went through. Not trying to criticize the film as a film. Film and book are two different art forms, and while there are books that have the same sort of plotty structure as a screenplay (a lot of modern indie authors do that), the great books better explore the medium, the consciousness of the characters, the pacing, and the word style the page and imagination allows. Film has one POV (the camera), and is more about visuals and action. More artistic filmmaking goes beyond this, but films that do that like 2001 and Blowup aren't exactly going to light up box-office sales like something such as Peter Jackson's Lord of the Rings, Avatar, or some Disney film will. Film and TV tends to be quite rigid in structure, they're making shows more like books these days (it's near impossible to replicate al the elements) and look how much Twitter screeches and complains about it - they have different expectations, and often a different audience - a lot of TV fans don't read.... anything!
Of course it is ONE OF the most iconic fantasy movie trilogies ever made. What other fantasy movie trilogy are there? And, to answer your question, Tolkien's story is better by far.
When you break a thing to learn what is it's make up you have left the paths of wisdom . Jackson's writers smashed the story line into an unbelievable facsimile. The only reason his move did so well was because it was famous before it was butchered into a movie . Also look at the movies that LotR was up against.
FYI, the Ents are the entelechies, the agent/power that bring potential into actual Being, according to Aristotle. They 'herd Hurons' which are neurons. Middle-earth is the material brain. Hobbits are habits, the four main Hobbits are the Cardinal Virtues. Frodo is Temperance, Sam- Fortitude, Pippin- Prudence and Merry- Justice. Gollum is Intemperance, thus calling Frodo Master. The Wizards are the Intellectual Virtues according to Aristotle's 'Ethics'. Sauron is Artificial Intelligence, and Saruman has taken control of Academia, he is in the image of socialist John Dewey. Worm Tongue is his slave, the Marxist teacher unmanning and perverting our children. Tom and Goldberry are the fallen, transmigrated spirits of the Trees of Light, Tom is the fallen Rational Will, and Goldberry the fallen Rational Intellect. Tolkien's mythology is an epic contest between Aquinas and Descartes. This is all explained in great detail in the recently published book- 'Mount Doom, The Prophecy of Tolkien Revealed'.
Next to the changes he made to Faramir, I believe the changes he made to the Ents were Peter Jackson's biggest middle finger to the fans of the books.....and was about the time I lost all interest in seeing the 3rd movie in the cinema.
I am pretty much ok with all the changes Jackson made, and can at least understand each decision even if I don't love them. The only exception is the Palantiris. I think they either needed to be cut entirely or the needed to be better explained. Specifically failing to show that Denethor had a Palantir and that was what caused his descent to madness and despair was a mistake. It took a deeply flawed and unlikeable but nonetheless strong and sympathetic character and made him a simpering idiot fool....
The books by Tolkien are wonderful without a doubt, but I think in terms of film presentation, I think that Jackson's film version is the ideal for a film. If Jackson had made the movies to be absolutely true to the books, they would have been way too long, and boring as shit.
While I acknowledge Peter Jackson's brilliant series, I can never forgive him for deviating from the books. No Tom Bombadil? Are you freakin' kidding me? Elevating Arwen beyond Glorfinel, a huge mistake pandering to potential female viewers that likely never came without pressure from boyfriends and husbands. Tolkien created a world, Jackson and the screenwriters bastardized it, only glorified due to the cash that was invested in it.
@2:30ish - Gollum doesn’t choke because the Lembas is dry. He chokes for the same reason that the elven rope made him feel like it was burning and freezing him: the corruption of the ring makes him sensitive to items made by elves; particularly those from Galadriel’s realm, which not only is populated with elves that have returned from the Uttermost West and have lived in Valinor; but also the influence of Nenya plays a role. In any event, it is the purity of these items, and those that made them, that cause poor, corrupted Gollum’s suffering. They are antithetical to him.
Chefs kiss explanation.
Came here to say that, but not as well.
"it burns, it freezes, nasty elves twisted it...take it off!!"
You beat me to what I was going to write. Nicely said.
Jackson having Frodo tell Sam to go home was beyond unforgivable.
100% this!
What is "beyond" unforgivable? War?
@@NowhereMan7 altering the script in such an unbelievable way. Frodo never did any such thing.
A lot of the travelling throughout the trilogy takes place at night in the books, but at day in the movies. I guess two reasons. First, glorious landscape shots instead of dark scenes that make the movie quite gloomy. Secind, it's much easier to film during the day.
They were also (mostly) never in such a rush that they didn't have time to eat a snack and take a nap. In fact, the closer that the hobbits got to Mt. Doom, the more they had to stop and rest to try and conserve energy.
No one in real life travels in woods at night. It was dumb on Tolkiens part because you cannot see 2 feet in front of you period.
@@cj88macleod That's not true. I have seen dozens of orienteerers on TV travelling in woods at night.
@ that’s because they literally have a map and compass. Take it away and it’ll turn into a search and rescue show .
As a kid, there was one very short scene I LOVED of the animated LOTR because it had Frodo and Sam (and Gollum?) traveling at night which created the oppressive atmosphere that fit their suicide mission. Some things that film did right
My late mother got so tired of Frodo almost dying over and over again, lol. I remember her shouting at the tv screen, "Oh, just die already!"
💀
I hated how the last hour of RotK was Frodo and Sam 200 yards...
Painful.
Frodo almost died twice, once on Weathertop, when he was stabbed by the Ringwraith, and again when he was stung by Shelob the spider.
@@randyfrakes6667 But to the viewer the cave troll in Moria also got him until we say his mithril armour.
All his near deaths had proper raesons he survived not just - leave the audience shocked for a while then come bakc and have him say, "I think Ill be OK after all".
Like in Game of Thrones Season 8 Battle at Winterfell: Show character get swarmed and overwhelmed by wights. Cut away to another scene. Cut back and show that they are OK. So lazy and pathetic.
My first button (remember the Sixties?) said “FRODO LIVES!”
The ents were my favorite part about the books when I read them in 2001. I was so disappointed with how they were left out in so many ways in the movies, with the removal of quick beam and a lot of their time together.
I think the worst change to the what’s in the movie though, hands down, is that the creatures most known for “not being hasty” make a hasty decision to attack Isengard. In the books, the decision is somber, and they know they are likely going to all die, and yet they decide to anyway.
And the song!
I feel like their hasty decision is still in line with how they were presented in the books. Treebeard had never thought of Saruman doing such a thing, and now that he realizes the grave nature of what's going on, he decides to make a bit of a hasty decision. I mean, after seeing so many of your friends dead and industrialized by one of your supposed friends, that would have to hurt more than anything. He also says before he leaves that they likely will not return, so that mixed with the wonderful music I think portrays the emotion from the book very well, although it is maybe more epic seeming than it was in the book. I would say his retaliation was still in line for the character, as Treebeard of course had a VERY deep love for nature and all things beautiful and would want to do something about such hatred right away. That's just my opinion, however.
I read them in 1982 and feel much the same way
Last week as I was walking to church I saw little white flowers blooming around a rock and I thought of LOTR and these videos.
Treebeards sorrow at the loss of the Entwives is so beautiful and moving in the books. One of the many things missing from the films.
It's not missing from the films.
@@histguy101 it's mentioned but nowhere near as in depth as the books and without the poetry
@@mememan5466we didn’t want to spend an hour listening to him whine about how he’s missing tree bussy
@@gargoyles9999 *trussy
I agree. LOTR by Jackson is an absolutely amazing production despite all the criticized variations from the book. It is an amazing piece of cinematography, scripting, acting and SFX. However, the book evokes far more emotion than the film because Tolkien was an amazing writer.
Takes a bit for me to comment on a video but I absolutely LOVE finding a new quality YT series! Kudos to you
Thanks for watching!
I think LotR is now in the same allegory class as Morte d'Arthur where many authors and screenwriter interpret to story in their own way. This does not detract from Jackson's interpretation; rather it shows the richness of JRRT's work and it's position in our metaphorical and allegorical societal structure.
Not to detract from your point but I remember that toilken hated allegory.
According to Professor Tolkien, Allegory rests in the ‘purposed domination of the author’ for the meaning that it has. Check the Fellowship Preface. His works may have many layers of metaphorical meaning, which gives them depth and room for myriad interpretations; but he intentionally avoided lacing the narrative with any allegorical meaning to the best of his ability. I agree with much of your point; but my OCD had to put suggestions of allegory to rest.
Treebeard hearing the voices first is something the Bakshi film got right!
In the books Treebeard also says that if he hadn't heard them first he would have stepped on them! 😂
Jackson should have left it like it was in the book. The marsh should not have open flames, but ghost like lights, Gollum says they are candles of corpses, and not to look at them, or follow them. You said Gollum said the battle was when he was young before the Precious came, but he says he was told of the great battle long ago.
Glad you pointed this out. I was going to. In the movie, Gollum says, "don't follow the lights" but there are no lights. In the book, the lights were down in the water with the corpses.
That I can live with, I've seen marsh lights. They are gases from the decomposing flora.
@@RoboSteavethe lights ARE the corpses
there is a phenomenon where decomposing matter in bogs can catch fire and burn for a very long time. This is what Tolkein was describing - but through the eyes of the hobbits who didn't know this and therefore saw them as ghost-like lights. Similar bogs are all over England - Tolkein would have known this phenomenon well
Dead body’s produce methane. Methane is a gas that burns.
This is my favorite series currently being updated on UA-cam. I'm excited when I see the new video pop up each week!
I prefer the book's coverage of this journey. There's more time to explore the interpersonal dynamics of the group, and I enjoy Gollum's frankly sarcastic personality.
* * * * * *
But in a little while [Gollum] stopped suddenly and sniffed the air doubtfully, hissing as if he was troubled or displeased again.
‘What is it?’ growled Sam, misinterpreting the signs. ‘What’s the need to sniff? The stink nearly knocks me down with my nose held. You stink, and master stinks; the whole place stinks.’
‘Yes, yes, and Sam stinks!’ answered Gollum. ‘Poor Sméagol smells it, but good Sméagol bears it...'
_- The Passage of the Marshes_
Originally, after Frodo reminds Gollum his real name, it was going to show the flashback of Sméagol's backstory of how he found The Ring and how it transformed him into Gollum (which Gandalf tells Frodo in the kitchen of Bag End in chapter three of The Fellowship of the Ring) but during the editing, Jackson thought that it slowed down the pace of the movie so he cut it from the theatrical version. He then thought of use it for the Extended Version but then said to Fran Walsh (the producer and co-writer) "You know what? Let's save it for The Return of the King" which is how it ended up in the third movie.
On a side note, I think how the order of the scenes in the movie fits the pacing better than how it is in the book as they wouldn't work as smoothly for a movie. Remember that you can take all the time you want in a book but for a movie it needs to have a steady pace so you don't get bored to fall asleep (like Merry and Pippin does to Treebeard's poetry in the next scene with them), therefore you can't drag for too long or be confused on how it is structured, like a bumpy road and you want it to be as smooth as possible.
I do have to say I do like watching these videos because as someone who has only seen the films. Its actually surprising when learn that a scene was completely made up and did not appear in the books. I actually assumed that everything we seen in the movie is what happened in the books. That shows how well written this film series is they are integrated so well.
Like for example the battle of Helms deep (spoilers but of course everyone probably already knows) the Elves were not there in the books however I did not learn that until after I saw the film and it was shocking. I literally thought it was in the books that elves would show up because it is a perfect parallel to the last Alliance. Elves and Men fighting along side each other against the darkness once more. It felt like something Tolkien would write.
It the same story with The Hobbit when it comes to Tauriel, I was shocked that she was made up for the movie because she felt so well integrated and I just assumed that every character we see in the movie was in the book. That just shows how well written a lot of this stuff is.
I loved Gollum in the movies, especially in the second one. Many alterations to characters like Treebeard, Theoden, Aragorn and Faramir caused me quite to dislike the "Two Towers", at least it's the movie I'm least attached to. But the Gollum/Smeagol scenes were brilliant. And they are the most important reason for watching TT again.
I like the look of Treebeard but I quite dislike his actions because they go so much against anything written in the books. I would have loved it if PJ had sticked a bit more to his true character.
Gollum, Gandalf & Galadriel were the only 3 characters that I felt were complety true to their book counterparts.
Hoom Hoom Hoom!
I prefer the relationship between Frodo and Gollum in the book but it wouldn’t have worked so well in a movie setting I don’t think. Jackson made the right choice.
I have officially binged all the LotR you've done. Definitely appreciate your content, and I'm glad to have gotten to discover you by sheer happenstance.
Thanks for being a part of the community!
Treebeard was a struggle when Weta Workshop designed him for many reasons. One of them is that Peter Jackson wanted to avoid copying the Ralph Bakshi version which he thought wasn't great and referred him as a "walking, talking carrot" (onsindering his orange skin, I see where he gets it at 😆). Tolien illustrator and concept artist of the movie John Howe have previously in book illustraions avoided to draw him in full as he wasn't sure how much tree-to-man ratio he was going to do ("Is he a man shaped like a tree or is he a tree shaped like a man?"). One of the Weta concept designers Daniel Falconer, who made a lot of the elven designs like Rivendell and Lothloríen, had Treebeard in his head when he read the book as a kid and drew him based on his mind's design, hence how Treebeard was designed.
For the close up shots with Merry and Pippin, Treebeard was made into a large animatronic puppet which was operated by several people, two was running the arms, two for swaying him back and forth to make him look like walking and one was radio controlling his head movements and eyes plus a couple of guys walked around holding branches to cast of the shadows on the puppet and Dominic Monaghan and Billy Boyd to similute movement as Treebeard walks through the forrest. Also was Richard Taylor off-screen yelling "Left! Right! Left! Right!" to guide the rythm off the walk. In addition John Rhys-Davies sat off screen and read Treebeards lines (which he would recorded in post-production, with the voice recording being played through a wooden tunnel to make it more, literally, wooden and echoey, Rhys-Davies wondered at first how an ent should talk as trees don't have lungs, so he decided on speaking on the inhales rather on the exhales).
For making the tree bark on Treebeard's skin look realistic, Weta put on euraphane onto acrual trees and brought the molds back to the workshop to make the bark which they put on the puppet. The beard was done as a weave made from air roots and mosses. Also they put in a detail that is hard to see is the shell of a Kaori snail which is unfortunatley an endangered species in New Zealand due to a pest that was introduced by the early settlers, making it rare. They also put real branches on the puppet's body.
When Treebeard holds up the Hobbits, Monaghan and Boyd sat on bicyce seats that was in Treebeard's hands, which unfortunatley squished their testicles to the point that Dominic Monaghan thought that'd never thought he was goingt to get kids (if it's true or not is unkknown, as he hasn't been a relationship since his relationship with Evangeline Lilly, his co-star from Lost, who'd later play Tauriel in The Hobbit trilogy, and haven't got any kids yet, Boyd on the other hand have a son named Jack William Boyd, with his wife Alison McKinnon).
For the wide shots Treebeard was naturally done as a CGI character, The rendering on Treebeard was so complex that the rendering time took 48 per frame (in rendering time). Since the head wasn't so expressive, Jim Rygel and the computer guys at Weta Digital discussed what to animate. First they were just going to just aimated the eyes and the mouth but after a few mintues, they dropped the idea and decided to just replace the whole head with a CG version to make it as expressive as possible but took in mind that he had to have less expressions compared to other creatures as it'd seem unnatarual if his bark-like skin stretched like skin does so they walked a fine balance how much/little streching his skin does as he talked or gave expressions.
Meriadoc is the one who has a clearer sense of where the two hobbits are in the book, as he was the one who'd spent some time looking at maps in Rivendell. Meriadoc's also the one who is more willing to go into Fanghorn early on, not just because it makes more sense, but because (as a Brandybuck) he's also got some familiarity with old forests.
This is a fantastic series, by the way, and I've created a YT account just to comment on this. Keep up the great work!
Thanks for watching! And yes, it’s funny the parallels that Merry draws between the Old Forest and Fangorn. Especially because of their trip earlier on in the book into the Old Forest, they seem to be veterans in terms of forest exploration. 😎😂
I never understood why the film had Treebeard tricked into going to war; it was so contrived. How did the hobbits know where to lead Treebeard to so he could see his toppled "tree friends"? They didn't know Saruman had begun a mass destruction of trees whereas Treebeard, having spoken to Gandalf after his re-appearance, would probably have known exactly that.
Me neither. In the books, Merry and Pippin were a catalyst, the last drop that made a long-simmering pot boil over, whereas the movie Ents were incapable of any action until someone came and made them. When the same pattern repeated in Gondor all over, I felt like howling.
Only 2 scenes? He left so much of the book on the floor and added imagination to the movie I had to re-explain it to quite a few people. I did enjoy it, just prefer J.R.R.'s original work.
Well done. Really well done. Thank you. Take care.
You have to admit however that the scenes with the magnificent Ents were loooong and draaaaawn out as they should have been. Ho-hum,hmrph....I love Treebeard's 'poet-tree, 😂' I could listen to such a creature forevermore.
The more times I read the books and watch the movies, the more I appreciate how Jackson made choices that both respected the core mythology of LotR and made them good films. My heart says this is what JRRT hoped for when creating a modern mythology
Those faces in the marsh creeped me ALL the way out the first few times I watched. Jackson really does know how to do his original job.
It's been said that Tolkien was telling the story to be read from a book...and Jackson was telling a story to be experienced on a screen. Had it been for a film, Tolkien may very well have made the same changes. Similar words are rumored to have come from the Tolkien Estate itself.
Yea, it would be impossible to do it exactly as the books. That’s why I am a fan of both!
I think these changes are fine. It's a change for a visual medium. We have to see these things not be told about them. Also I love that the Ents are walking trees. Again because of the visuals.
I love them both. The fact is that most of the Two Towers, Sam and Frodo are just walking. Currently nearing the end of the Two Towers book, and the latter half takes place during The Return of the King. Adding drama is a little annoying, but makes the chapters about them being miserable while walking and walking and walking something more to watch.
It’s funny because at all the conventions that the hobbit actors do, they refer to the movies as “the walking movies we did in New Zealand”. 😂
wow this was illuminating because the appearance of treebeard was always one of my favorite scenes in the films- the character was always something that i think was kind of a brilliant conception but now im really conflicted. i think the "look" of treebeard in the films is superior honestly, but i think jackson's re telling of this whole thing was weak. yes it builds tension but it tracks more that treebeard didnt know about hobbits, because they are constantly overlooked (something that has always triggered the question in my mind, what and who are the hobbits a metaphor for?--if they are a metaphor.) grishnakh chasing them into the forest and then being killed by treebeard is so serendipitous for merry and pippen that it beggars belief, as does treebeard stepping on something and not investigating what he stepped on, which would have cleared up that merry and pippen were not orcs at all. (who steps on a foreign object and doesnt look to see what they stepped on?) the travelling of frodo and co. during the day also in hindsight makes absolutely no sense, since it is pretty common sense to move under the cover of darkness in stealth- i wonder if this was done to keep gollum from seeming super creepy all the time/justify the cgi budget/give andy sirkis more room to flex?- no idea honestly. all these jumbled decisions and 180's from the book are completely nonsensical. great video.
I do not think that these were "jumbled" oder "nonsensical" decisions. The film team really gave intensive thought to all the alterations they made. There were reasons of storyline and pacing, timing and visualisation. We as individuals might not like these decisions. But they were necessary for turning this epic book trilogy into marvellous films. I myself do not like all their changes of plot, timeline or characterisation, but I adored the movies right from the very first time of seeing the Fellowship of the Ring in cinema. They are masterpieces. They would not have been, had they sticked 100% to everything in the books.
I just imagined the scene of Merry and Pippin meeting Treebeard. After the excitement of escaping the battle the pacing slows down to two hobbits calmly ambeling through Fangorn, eating, joking, complaining a bit about the stiff air, climbing the rock shelf, looking out into the world and the sky, enjoying the spell of sunshine and having light conversation. And then Treebeard talking to them and getting to know them and telling them about the Ents and making new rhymes. This is a joy to read - but I think it would be ghastly boring to watch.
Hah, trusting Gollum because he resqued Frodo? It was clear right away that he didn't want the ring to be lost! :D
I still haven't read the books completely, by the way.
However, I always did wonder why Gollum was so cheerful and helpful, bringing them to Mordor.
Subbed about a week ago and love your series. I hope you will do some in depth lore series as well. Keep it up.
How is the Nazgul's steed described in the book? I always found the flying dinosaurs in the film well over the top.
More or less described like giant vultures , "great featherless carrion birds".
It is fun and informative to see the movie scene to the book differences, but it doesn't diminish my appreciation for Jackson's LOTR. What a Masterpiece of cinema this was, complete with how it hasn't aged any more from when it came out to right now would be to an Ent. An instant classic and timeless piece of work.
As for the comparison between the two forms of media, I'm so impressed that Jackson adaptations were so very much in the spirit of the source material. These are fun and very well done reviews.
My biggest gripe with the movies is how much time is spent on the battles and how much character and dialogue was lost. Also, the Tom Bombadil part is critical as the weapon that kills the Nazgûl king was obtained there
Don't fear an Ent. They're all bark and no bite.
💀
Tell that to Saruman.
This series is very interesting. I never really liked how the film introduced treebeard because he's just sleeping there so it's a one in a million chance that he would be the tree the hobbits climb.
I didn't mind Merry and Pippin taken to the white wizard, but I don't like treebeard's hasty decision making throughout the film.
Them traveling through the swamp by day probably just looked better.
In my humble opinion, when doing a movie of a book series that has been so popular, should try their utmost to stick to the book.
It does have one benefit however, that when someone watches the movies and recognize the differences, it inevitably seems to cause many to research even further into the story almost ad nauseum.😜
This is a rare case where I can't really figure out why the changes were made. And, absent a solid reason, I feel it should've been kept closer to the book.
Alright alright, after all these months I finally subscribed! :-)
in Tolkein you can also tell something is evil when they touch something elf-made and it hurts them.
I love and look forward to this every week : ) you are the bee's knees.
No, you are!
I do have a love for these movies for the source material that DID make it into them, but I think Peter Jackson can be a bit hacky. The scene where Treebeard literally man handles the massive iron gate of Isengard being left out was, I thought, a dam tragedy.
I've read the books only about 3x but I was ok with the changes. And leaving Tom Bombidil out was also quite the controversy, I was ok with that also.
I rather like the changes for the film, it builds tension. The Dead Marshes being some spooky evil that perhaps Sauron is behind shows that even the lands beyond Mordor are becoming blighted. Treebeard being more tree than man is also a neat visual distinction at the variety of creatures in the world.
But the biggest change in Gollum's character I like better in the film. It feels more hopeful that even Gollum, who was a creature enslaved to the ring for so long, may yet find a way to escape its grasp.
I noticed many changes from the book when I watched the first film and struggled with how it altered the story. Eventually I rationalized it as the movie is the directors attempt at telling the story and He made many changes to make the story shorter and easier for an audience to follow and be drawn into it. I came to the conclusion that it was after all the best version of the story at this time and the special effects are really good. If He followed the books exactly I think it would have taken 5 or 6 films to do it in and people may have never gone to see the second film if He included Tom Bombadil and the barrow downs, which were mini adventures that bonded the hobits closer together but didn't have anything to do with the main story other than providing the hobits with a few elvish weapons.
Greetings from Brazil mellon, can't say how much i enjoy watching this series as it will take too long to say everything 😅
It’s treebeard!
I love the movies as their own creation but I really wish they stuck closer to the books. Like Legolas is practically merry in the books and in the movie he is all "mysterious" and overly serious. I'm just really glad that Jackson decided not to put Arwen into the fight at Helms Deep even after he filmed her there.
I was really hoping to see, on video, the "fighting style" of the Ents that was described in the text. Tolkien wrote that the damage an Ent brings is like watching the countless years of root growth and destruction through seemingly impenetrable objects, except said destruction takes place in a matter of seconds, rather than centuries.
Trust me, we’ll get there! Going scene by scene so stayed tuned for those scenes 👀
I would want a discussion about what the orcs and trolls or generally sauron's surviving forces would have done after sauron's defeat.
The best decision Jackson made was removing the singing, so taking the gollum song out was in no way sad. It would have been a really strange movie with them in. Some of the changes are simply the visualisation that is the only way a movie can demonstrate something whereas a book can describe. I think alot of the changes aren't really changes
Jackson still showed the arc from bad to good and it works well on film and then it develops. I feel like as long as the themeing is the same it's fine. Sometimes details change.
In the Dead Marshes, I think that Sam believed Gollum was eating corpses, not bugs or worms.
When they drank the Entish draught is when I figured out the Hobbits were the saplings of the Entwives.
Only "a few" differences???
💀
The ents are one of Tolkien’s most original things and one of my favorite parts of LotR, and Jackson did ‘em dirty. He passed over almost all of it, then made the battle - one chapter - most of the film.
He should have doubled the screen time the Ents got
I disagree. Saving some of the best parts of the Ents to discover for those who choose to read the books after being inspired to do so from watching the movies is a good thing in my book.
They get a lot of time in the movie. The whole middle act, Merry and Pippen are with treebeard
A deleted bit from the film would have payed homage to the Treebeard's list of creatures saying "You're not on the old list.". This was cut probably due to pacing.
Ah yes, pacing.....which would have made sense were it not for the additional 45 minutes of material, not in the books, that Jackson added to The Two Towers.
As a long-time fan of the book, I definitely felt confused by the changes to how Treebeard dealt with Merry and Pippin. Treebeard, as one of the very oldest entities in Middle-Earth (bar Tom Bombadil, who's referred to as the Eldest by Elrond) had a lot of confidence in his own ability to slowly, carefully, and methodically assess the strange new creatures he managed not to mistake for orcs! The idea that this figure would simply defer judgement to a young whippersnapper of a Wizard seemed bizarre to me!
And narratively for the movie, there was just no need for suspense or tension at that moment, we'd had plenty of that with the battle and escape. it would definitely have worked better with a softer, easing of tension and showing Treebeard conversing with the hobbits just a she did in the book.
I got the impresion that, in Jackson's version, the Lembas has some form of spiritual goodness or holiness baked into them. Everything made by the elves has a kind of holiness to it, which purifies whatever it touches. Gollum, who is totally corrupt, is being purified by the holy elven elements. He says, "It tries to choke us!" I'm not totally sure Tolkien specifically intended this, but it is a vague picture of the power of Jesus Christ. Normally whenever a defiled or filthy thing touches an undefiled or clean thing, the defilement is transmitted to the previously undefiled thing, ruining it. This is why we must be careful what we subject our eyes, ears, and mind to. We are very easily defiled by the world's spiritual corruption, and we have zero ability to clease ourselves of that spiritual corruption. But whenever our King Jesus touches anything, the defilement is removed, and the sin purged. While I don'tassume that Tolkien personally had saving faith in Christ alone to make him able to stand in the presence of the Holy One, he nonetheless knew much theology of the Church of Rome (which adherents call 'Catholic'). Thus, he knew well the absolute realities of holiness and corruption, and they are major themes affecting all of his fantasy. His story really is about Good versus Evil, not just Team A versus Team B, which is all a person can have when they foolishly declare the silliest of faiths that "there is no God," and thus, "nothing exploded and created everything."
Love how you portray Tolkien's fictional work as fact 😂
Pretty sure, no I’m positive he is just telling you the changes from the book from the movies.
You’re telling me it didn’t really happen? 👀
Almost like Tolkien himself saying that middle earth is our world at a different time.
Can't prove it isn't an alternative universe Tolkien tapped into on an acid trip
Gollum cant eat the bread because magic. Just like he can't bear the elven rope, and in the book, Sam and Frodo speculate on if the rope is actually hurting Gollum, though it's not tied tight, but because it was made by elves.
Gollum says in the movie they travel by night, sleep in the day, likewise in the book, and they do both in both.
I always felt that Gollum's apparently genuine pain from the rope was nonsensical. He wasn't an intrinsically evil being and there's no reason why elvish items would be any more harmful to him than the hobbits.
@@FoolsMasque “Frodo: 'It's a pity Bilbo didn't kill Gollum when he had the chance.'
Gandalf: 'Pity? It's pity that stayed Bilbo's hand. Many that live deserve death. Some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them, Frodo? Do not be too eager to deal out death in judgment. Even the very wise cannot see all ends. My heart tells me that Gollum has some part to play in it, for good or evil, before this is over. The pity of Bilbo may rule the fate of many.' Frodo: 'I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.'
Gandalf: 'So do all who live to see such times, but that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides that of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring, in which case you were also meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien
I liked Treebeard's physical depiction in the movie. My imagination couldn't have come up with anything better. I wish there had been MORE Treebeard and more Pippen and Merry, but that wouldn't have worked for the movie run-time or continuity. When I first saw the movies 20 years ago, @Fact or Fantasy, I was so upset at all the changes. The books are still superior works of art but I've reconciled myself to the movies. And sometimes the movies are better. Gandalf and Co. entering Edoras and Gandalf casting away Saruman's influence over Théoden was waaaaaaay better constructed in the movie than in the book. When I went back and read the chapter after having seen the movie, I thought Tolkien's scene was rather dull and lackluster. Score one for Philippa Boyens.
Agreed! I like how the Ents look. Maybe it’s because I haven’t seen a better alternative, but making them look tree-ish just makes sense to me. Plus, I saw the movies first and THEN read the books so I love both formats. Obviously certain things fit better in different mediums.
And yea, some of Theoden’s best lines aren’t even ones pulled from Tolkien, but rather Boyens’ work. 👀
@@factorfantasyweekly Boyens refers to herself, rather humbly, as "a good mimic."
How dare you use facts and have an unbiased opinion on the differences between the books and movies ! First time coming across your videos and I’d have to say this is some great LOTR content.
I know, I really should get more opinionated… 👀😂 thanks for watching!
@@factorfantasyweekly absolutely 😂 and no problem, definitely subscribing 😎💯
The movies made it seem like Treebeard was indifferent until Merry and Pippin came along. Tolkien described the Ents' anger as a long-brewing flood precipitated by the arrival of Merry and Pippin. Peter Jackson really screwed up my favorite character and The Two Towers in general. I really don't love the LOTR movie trilogy and haven't rewatched any of the films after seeing them once in the theaters. Sure, it's a movie. But it's not the same story as the book when it could have been.
Ill do you one better.. Why is Treebeard?
Metaphors go over your head.
Sweet, love this deries
As you well know, trolls were always the opponents of the ents.
Films are a different medium and allowances need to be made to adjust to that medium. Now some of the film changes work well. Others less well. But overall it works for the medium it was made for.
I like having the 2 versions!
Both are Masterpieces!
(Even if after reading the books watching them in theaters had a few scenes that were HIGHLY FRUSTRATING and I don't even care about the elves at helms deep!
But after all these years, I highly appreciate both for their own version... BUT OBVIOUSLY TOLKIEN'S VERSION IS BEST!)
I don't care if they change it is awsome.
This is an excellent series! Do you have these LOTR in a sequential playlist?
Yep! You can find an “All Episodes” playlist, as well as each individual movie (as I complete them), on my channel page. 🙏🏼
At first I wasn't initially happy with Treebeard or the other ents looking like bunches of hard-skinned celery. The book was clear that they were more humanoid looking and personally, I always suspected that it was ents that Morgoth 'twisted' into the race of trolls.
Imagine if Jackson had produced movies where everyone stops and sings all the time.
Thank you for pointing out that Jackson's ents were not at all book-accurate. Few have said so, though it is the truth. Skin isn't bark! Oh well, Jackson's introduction to the world of LOTR was through Bakshi. Take a look at Treebeard in that animated film. We can see that although Bakshi's LOTR was a failure and Jackson's a resounding and enduring success, Bakshi nevertheless left his mark. The books are the best.
It looked like someone just went overboard with the branches and knots and no one had the heart to tell them😛 Under all that there may still the same being.
I think YT ate my other comment, so yeah, don’t forget the “old stump of a tree” with two “branches left”.
Now bringing it together, and adding more thoughts😛: With all the descriptions together, it kinds of alternates between tree-ish and human-like: Overall shape is humanoid, silhouette can be perceived as tree-like, the form of each body part is human(even what looks like it could be clothing), the appearance of each body part is tree-like.
And THEN there’s the actually flesh, which is…well, I’d say something other than wood.
I think Jackson did it justice.
Sure some changes weren't necessary. But film adaptations inevitably require some creative license when adapting nearly 500k words.
I find PJ's overall handling of the Ents underwhelming but given the time constraints, this was - unfortunately - something that could be reduced without severely impacting the main storyline. - That said, though, I mightily disapprove of tricking Treebeard into the war with Saruman, that should have been the Ents' own decision.
Another issue I have with this part of the movie is changing the wonderful creepiness of the Dead Marshes into a cheap jumpscare.
I've nearly lost friendships debating the LotR books versus the movies. 🤐
The movies are GREAT movies, but mediocre-to-poor adaptations, as is nearly always the case with Hollywood. If you're not familiar with the books (and at least 9/10 people aren't), then that's fine. If you're familiar with the books and have a fondness for them, the movies can be traumatic.
Personally, I'd've done cartwheels if Jackson hadn't flubbed around with Tolkein's work... but that's just not how Hollywood has ever worked. I can sit through and generally enjoy the LotR movies, although I can't help but wince at several of Jackson's choices. I barely associate them with the books, as almost all the little details that made the books special to me are altered or omitted altogether. That said, I find "The Hobbit" to be a completely unwatchable nightmare.
Just sayin'. YMMV.
I love the movies, I have seen them so many times since I was 7-8 years old
The films are wonderful. I find very little to complain about with any of the three. The Hobbit is a different matter, but even those I appreciate more and more over time. But they really can’t compare to the books. The films do a great job of reflecting the books’ greatness. They hold their own greatness as well. The bottom line is that the films deserve the praise they have been given and I am always cautious about any criticism of it. But the books will always rule.
One problem with the movie version is Treebeard thinking they are Orcs when they look nothing like Orcs. Still, I love both versions. Each is appropriate for its purpose.
Books are more about style and consciousness, films about visuals and structure.
The book is better IMO, but the film is adapted to work for the screen. They're both fantasy, but otherwise are two very different genres, while the book is about a piece of history in middle earth, an adventure through a fantastic world and everything to do with it, and is much more character driven, the film is much more plotty and action-blockbuster based with the elements of the books being more of a backdrop. If you're a film fan and don't really care about the depth, the film is great - but if you want something more, the books are vastly superior.
In terms of book and film, both have plot, but the films are more scene by scene, with the characters existing in the string of scenes, where the book reverses this, and the characters drive the scenes that come and the flow of the story feels much less plotty/contrived, and more organic. While there is some development in the films, the characters are basically the same thing throughout, just with some trauma or a change of clothing; the book really emphasizes the change building up, and the contrast between the early chapters and the Scouring of the Shire is a great show of the change they went through.
Not trying to criticize the film as a film. Film and book are two different art forms, and while there are books that have the same sort of plotty structure as a screenplay (a lot of modern indie authors do that), the great books better explore the medium, the consciousness of the characters, the pacing, and the word style the page and imagination allows. Film has one POV (the camera), and is more about visuals and action. More artistic filmmaking goes beyond this, but films that do that like 2001 and Blowup aren't exactly going to light up box-office sales like something such as Peter Jackson's Lord of the Rings, Avatar, or some Disney film will. Film and TV tends to be quite rigid in structure, they're making shows more like books these days (it's near impossible to replicate al the elements) and look how much Twitter screeches and complains about it - they have different expectations, and often a different audience - a lot of TV fans don't read.... anything!
Of course it is ONE OF the most iconic fantasy movie trilogies ever made. What other fantasy movie trilogy are there? And, to answer your question, Tolkien's story is better by far.
When you break a thing to learn what is it's make up you have left the paths of wisdom . Jackson's writers smashed the story line into an unbelievable facsimile. The only reason his move did so well was because it was famous before it was butchered into a movie . Also look at the movies that LotR was up against.
FYI, the Ents are the entelechies, the agent/power that bring potential into actual Being, according to Aristotle. They 'herd Hurons' which are neurons. Middle-earth is the material brain. Hobbits are habits, the four main Hobbits are the Cardinal Virtues. Frodo is Temperance, Sam- Fortitude, Pippin- Prudence and Merry- Justice. Gollum is Intemperance, thus calling Frodo Master. The Wizards are the Intellectual Virtues according to Aristotle's 'Ethics'. Sauron is Artificial Intelligence, and Saruman has taken control of Academia, he is in the image of socialist John Dewey. Worm Tongue is his slave, the Marxist teacher unmanning and perverting our children. Tom and Goldberry are the fallen, transmigrated spirits of the Trees of Light, Tom is the fallen Rational Will, and Goldberry the fallen Rational Intellect. Tolkien's mythology is an epic contest between Aquinas and Descartes. This is all explained in great detail in the recently published book- 'Mount Doom, The Prophecy of Tolkien Revealed'.
Next to the changes he made to Faramir, I believe the changes he made to the Ents were Peter Jackson's biggest middle finger to the fans of the books.....and was about the time I lost all interest in seeing the 3rd movie in the cinema.
Tolkien's version is better, but I can understand that some things work better in books and other things work better on the big screen.
Jacksons movies made so many mistakes. As for the comment "which version is better" well thats just ridiculous.
Narratively I honk the. Movie makes sense for the time it has to tell the story
But I think I like the book version more.
2:52 The color for this scene seems really off. Am I misremembering, or is something actually up?
Yea they colored it different in different versions. I couldn’t find a version without that bad coloring. 😭
@@factorfantasyweekly Sad.
I do recall hearing 4k version changed things, makes me question whether it’s worth picking up.
Question: at what point is Gollum told that they’re going to Mt Doom to destroy the ring?
In the film after frodo and Sam fight on the pass of Cirith Ungol. In the books not at all.
I am pretty much ok with all the changes Jackson made, and can at least understand each decision even if I don't love them. The only exception is the Palantiris. I think they either needed to be cut entirely or the needed to be better explained. Specifically failing to show that Denethor had a Palantir and that was what caused his descent to madness and despair was a mistake. It took a deeply flawed and unlikeable but nonetheless strong and sympathetic character and made him a simpering idiot fool....
What was Treebeard's real indentity?
We know there's really small changes in comparison to the books. But we would settle for anything close to this level of quality. ffs.
There are both great and little changes. Both are quality works, book and adaptation. No need to get mad... Or is that your pastime?
The books by Tolkien are wonderful without a doubt, but I think in terms of film presentation, I think that Jackson's film version is the ideal for a film. If Jackson had made the movies to be absolutely true to the books, they would have been way too long, and boring as shit.
Isn't it canon that the ents look more and more like trees as they age?
so what was treebeard's true identity and where was it hidden?
While I acknowledge Peter Jackson's brilliant series, I can never forgive him for deviating from the books. No Tom Bombadil? Are you freakin' kidding me? Elevating Arwen beyond Glorfinel, a huge mistake pandering to potential female viewers that likely never came without pressure from boyfriends and husbands. Tolkien created a world, Jackson and the screenwriters bastardized it, only glorified due to the cash that was invested in it.
The books are better.