One cool detail in the movies is that you can see Gandalf's cloak is clasped together by the brooch of Lothlorien, implying he was there even if it's not mentioned outright
I have seen some people criticise the fact that Gandalf is portrayed as too human in the films. I understand the criticism, and in the books Tolkien’s writing style, where he tends to write in a slightly detached way, lends itself to Gandalf being a little more other-worldly. It is less easy to maintain that in film, and could have made Gandalf a little flat or stand-offish. With the resurrection scenes Jackson gets the message over to the audience that Gandalf is a little different, without de-humanising a character that has been well fleshed out up to this point. It also gives a good point at which to show a change in pace, where Gandalf is given agency to return and fix things, midway (ish) through the Trilogy. The Fellowship was reactive, on the backfoot, Gandalf the White is proactively taking the fight to Saruman, and eventually Sauron.
If you listen carefully when Gandalf speaks before he is revealed, you can hear that it is not just Saruman's voice but Gandalf's as well, shifting between the other and back. Both Christopher Lee and Ian McKellen recorded the lines and the sound mixers carefully transitioned between the two lines. They also asked Lee and McKellen to imitate each other to add more ambigituity. Philipa Boyens say in the director and writer's commentary that she thought Ian McKellen was better at mimicing Christopher Lee than Lee mimicing McKellen.
Gandalf also said, "This is a foe beyond any of you. Run!" Not, "any of us," but "any of you." That indicates to me, at least, that he foresaw the possibility of having to go weapon-to-weapon with the demon of the ancient world. (Borne out by him handing over leadership of the Fellowship to Aragorn before turning to confront it.)
To be fair, he used an elven blade and charged it with lightning before stabbing the Balrog with it (after an already lengthy fight). So both were gravely injured and it looks like that last blast caused the Balrog (and Gandalf) to die. :)
@sststr He used Glamdring, which is an elven sword used by the king of Gondolin. He also called upon lightening to empower the sword, which wasn't anything the others could plus, they had regular blades.
Originally, they were going to show how the Balrog became slimey after getting out of the water and Gandalf continue the fight up the Endless Stairs but it turned out to make a slimey Balrog would be so expensive for such a short scene so this bit was cut for budget reasons. Concept art of the Slime Balrog and The Endless Stairs have been made and can be seen on the Extended Edition's behind the scenes material. One version depicts the Balrog as being similiar to his normal form but is black like hardened lava and inbetween the cracks leaks out an oily substance, which presumbly must be burning and could be like its "blood".
These are always great! Being nearly as old as Treebeard, I first read the books many years ago and reread them many times. However, since the movies came out, I mostly have watched them. It is great to be reminded of what the books originally said. I think my opinion is always, love the book version and love the movie version.
This is one of the best chapter in the books and films. I love how Gandalf just approaching them slowly, the tension is strong and then start to troll them with his words in enigmatic style. He also put some kind of spell on them or something because they can’t attack who they think is saruman before Gandalf let them of the hook.
I thought this was an acceptable compression of everything that took place in the book, but I did miss Galadriel's messages to the three hunters. Also, Gimli is a total badass in this chapter, ready to take on Sauruman single-handed. ‘Saruman!’ cried Gimli, springing towards him with axe in hand. ‘Speak! Tell us where you have hidden our friends! What have you done with them? Speak, or I will make a dint in your hat that even a wizard will find it hard to deal with!’ _-The White Rider_
04:10 Shadowfax was not Gandalf’s horse at this point. Theoden had not yet gifted him. That happened after Gandalf freed Theoden from Wormtongue’s influence. “But as for your gift, lord, I will choose one that will fit my need: swift and sure. Give me Shadowfax! He was only lent before, if loan we may call it.”- Gandalf
“Since Gandalf’s head is now sacred, let us find one that is right to cleave!” Gimli in the end of the White Rider chapter once Gandalf tells him the message from Galadriel :)
I loved Jackson's interpretation. It fills in a lot of info about Gandalf for a presumably ignorant audience (that's he's in no way human, that his identity takes many forms, and that 'wizards' are much more than magic users and are connected to a higher level of creation) while also gifting book readers with some exciting easter eggs to latch onto.
I remember there was a George Martin interview where he talked about Gandalf's return saying how he always preferred gandalf the grey over gandalf the white, and also criticized the trope of characters coming back to life with no consequences, and he explains that's why in his books there are consequences to characters resurrecting. Now I personally agree that bringing characters back to life can ruin the death scenes of said characters, and it removes the risk of death, but I also disagree specifically with the example of gandalf, his return as gandalf the white has such a important rule not just in the story itself but also a thematic importance, gandalf was sent to middle earth to guide it's peoples and acts like a beacon of hope and encouragement in the face of overwhelming odds, him coming back as gandalf the white who is wiser and more powerful makes the situation seem less hopeless and makes it feel that we might stand a chance against Sauron's unstoppable forces. I can't even begin to imagine how different lotr would have been if we didn't have gandalf the white.
Also, Gandalf is not just "a character", he is a Maia, so the usual rules don't really apply. We need look non further than Frodo to see a character changed by near-death experience.
George Martin is just dumb and takes everything literally. It isn’t real to him unless you know how every person in Minas Tirith is taking a dump. The strange thing is there is a definitive consequence for Gandalfs resurrection; in that he literally isn’t long for the world. He hasn’t been resurrected ; it’s more like he’s been temporarily reanimated, and only under the condition that he has to leave and return to the undying lands once his task is completed.
Peter slipped up briefly in The Two Towers film when Gandalf chastises Theoden for wanting to go to Helm's Deep. It's as if Gandalf conveniently forgot that the most defensible position is absolutely needed when confronting a superior size army.
I consider a major character change Aragorn urging Legolas to shoot. Even though the movie sets up more certainty for the approaching character to be Saruman, they still don't know for sure, and even if it was indeed Saruman, they don't know his intentions. Shooting from distance like that basically constitutes an ambush, which goes against the ethical values of a hero that Aragorn is supposed to be.
My weird theory is that Gandalf didn’t cause Anduril to flame. He froze it in Aragorn’s hand, but the sword itself flamed in recognition of Gandalf. “the light of the sun shone redly in [Anduril] and the light of the moon shone cold” (FOTR, The Ring Goes South). Gandalf told the balrog that he is a wielder of the flame of Anor (sun). The sun is the last light of Laurelin, aka holy light. Gandalf, because he is a servant of the Secret Fire (Iluvatar), wields holy light against the evil creatures; Anduril reflects that holy light, and Aragorn uses it against evil creatures. The holy light reflected in the sword kindles when the wielder of that holy light returns in his resurrected form.
@@jefffinkbonner9551 Thanks. It just makes sense. It's always bothered me a little that Gandalf would do something to hurt Aragorn when he just deflected the other weapons.
Love following this series! I just got the Fellowship of the Ring book a few days ago and already, while I have seen the episodes of this series, reading felt different and definitely different from the movie!
I think you did a really good job breaking everything down and you have earned my subscription even though this is the first or "maybe" second video of yours I've watched. 😃
The Change 20 scene (extended edition addition) is also well shot. IMO, The tone of voice and blue light around the characters is a nice foreshadowing of Frodo's success...that Jackson did not want to "reveal" in the Theatrical release.
The only missed opportunity here was the nameless things he should have had the fight with the balrog been longer and showing the nameless things gnawing on the roots of the mountains at least in passing
No, just no. The entire point of the nameless things is to be just that, a nameless thing. Something that gives the world a bit of mystery, just like Tom Bombadil, or the disappearance of the Entwives. They are never given a description of their appearance, hell they don't even have a name, so how do you propose they show something on film that's never been given a description? At most, perhaps Gandalf could have been given a line saying he had saw them, but what's the point? Non-book readers wouldn't get the reference, and book readers already know the reference. Just let mysteries be mysteries, they were written that way for a reason.
@Grimhart89 well thank you for your opinion the balrog was also supposed to be in League with the Orcs And approximately man size so if he can make changes to that he can make changes to whatever he wants
One thing that is missed in the movies that is sad is the part that talks about how Gandalf kept Sauron from figuring out where Frodo is. I love the idea of them having this "battle" happening in the minds over middle earth.
I love these videos. They are so calming and interesting. Btw I ordered the lotr trilogy books for christmas I also just noticed that you updated your character design
@@factorfantasyweekly Thanks man. I really appreaciate
20 днів тому+2
I think Peter Jackson did an amazing job at evoking the same feelings as the book. He obviously had to translate a few details to make that happen. The reveal in the book just wouldn't play well on screen. The visuals that would've had to have been employed in order to maintain the same level of ignorance for the viewer would have been rather corny and bordering on implausible. Peter Jackson used the same principle, only visually rather than linguistically. And some things that might've been conveyed through dialogue in the book would've been redundant in the film. For instance, we see Gandalf's fight with Durin's Bane, eliminating any need for Gandalf to recount it in detail. So, yeah, the reveal in the film is masterfully done to capture the same experience.
I remember one of the friends I went to see the Return of the King with at the cinema exclaimed 'of course!', when Pippin shouts "the eagles are coming!'. He'd not read the the Hobbit or the LOTR books and I'm not sure he'd seen the previous films. If the filming, run times and budgets had allowed Gwaihir to appear more periodically through the other two films and fleshed him out as a character and not used the eagles as a deus ex machina this would have greatly improved the trilogy as a whole. It would have been a good callback to his rescue from Orthanc if nothing else.
"He didn't go alone, Sam went with him." "Did he now? Good, very good." You have to love how it's Aragorn/Legolas who would look to Gandalf to restore hope giving that restoration of hope to Gandalf with just one recounting of friendship
Gandalf's return in the movie was handled extremely well IMO. Ian McKellen did such a phenomenal job as Gandalf and this whole scene was one of my favorites from the trilogy, actually. Yeah, it has a few changes resulting from other changes in the folms, but it doesn't matter. It still comes across the way it should.
I love your videos, and this is one of my favorite scenes (book or movie). I’ve got a nosy question: why does your hobbit avatar wear boots? Is he Trotter?
Pretty sure Jackson took visual cues for Gandalf's return from the Hildebrandt Brothers' illustration of the scene in their famous 1978 Tolkien calendar art.
what gets me is that Jackson went through all of this trouble and then proceeded to have the literal angel...humiliated by being disgraced and put down by the Witch King of Angmar which also never happened. I do think the movie vs. even the cartoon made the Balrog's battle utterly minimal (the Balrog's fall shattered a freaking mountain completely....he didn't just run out of flame and puff out like a dying fly); but I would argue that as another user said just below, Jackson did much better in making him more 'gentle' rather than aloof, which was done with excellence by Sir Ian McKellan, who still maintained that seeming otherworldly distance at times, but in other times you could see Nienna's influence (whose teachings Olorín/Gandalf had taken to heart in Valinor, as the Lady of Tears taught him compassion).
IMO the Gandulf reveal in the movies is spot on to how it needed to be handled for a movie. There are some changes I'd like to have not been done, but I understand Peter Jackson's reasoning behind them.
Never understood why White Gandalf does not remember his name by this point, because before this he met the hobbits and Treebeard, and surely they called him on his name. Strange. Any thoughts?
Personally, I never took his dialogue with Aragorn as meaning he forgot his name. You can tell he is being playful about it (in typical Gandalf style) and using the phrasing to emphasize that he isn’t Gandalf the Grey anymore but Gandalf the White. It’s like if your buddy got a promotion at work and you said “Assistant Manager” and they were like “Nah fam in GENERAL Manager now!”
@@Unikornis86 Actually, they took this dialogue from the book. In the book, Merry and Pippin have not met Gandalf yet, they meet him for the first time in Isengard when Gandalf comes to ask from Treebeard help for the battle of Helm's Deep, so it makes perfect sense. Merry and Pippin describe this scene to Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli while eating and smoking before they meet Saruman in Orthanc (after the Helm's Deep). Treebeard had seen Gandalf wandering after he had helped Frodo escape from Sauron's eye in Amon Hen but he hadn't talked to him. There is a good chance before meeting the three hunters that Gandalf the White had only met Galadriel and the elves of Lorien (they probably used Mithrandir) and Gwaihir
@@georgep7373 Thanks, I did not know that difference between book and movie. So the movie deceived me with the ending of the first scene between the hobbits and Treebeard, when he drops them at the feet of Gandalf (white robes). Thanks for clearing it up.
@@Unikornis86 You are welcome! Here is how Pippin describes the scene. (they were trying to find some place to rest among the ruins in Isengard when a rider in white came). I just sat up staring, with my mouth open. I tried to call out but couldn't. There was no need. He halted just by us and looked down at us. "Gandalf" I said at last, but my voice was only a whisper. Did he say: "Hullo Pippin! This is a pleasant surprise?" No, indeed! He said: "Get up, you tom-fool of a Took! Where in the name of wonder, in this ruin is Treebeard? I want him. Quick!
It'd be pretty hard to drag out the "disguised" Gandalf part given that the audience would immediately recognize Sir Ian. Being a visual medium, that kinda had to be cut down.
Peter Jackson thought during the writing about showing a naked Gandalf walking though Lothlorien for directions, as he talks about it in the commentary. It's difficult to tell whever he was serious about it but went against the idea as how tricky it would have been to film this without causing problem with the censors (or because he thought than that the pacing would have slowed the movie to a crawl) or if he was joking as he is known for pulling pranks and jokes about certain stuff.
An interesting detail is that Gandalf detests the word/name "the Balrog". 'Name him not!' said Gandalf, and for a moment it seemed that a cloud of pain passed over his face, and he sat silent, looking old as death. It is the last time the word is mentioned in the entire trilogy, except when Faramir mentions it during his conversation with Frodo about his adventures. Throughout his account of the battle in the mountain, Gandalf instead calls the Balrog he, him, or my enemy. I'm sure Tolkien very deliberately did so to further show how unpleasant Gandalf's experience of the encounter was.
They definitely made it epic in the movies but I also appreciate the paralells to Jesus in the books, what with him coming back to life and meeting people who knew him who haven't recognized him yet.
Another change about Gandalf's return. Not so much about the plot, but for the audiences. When you read the books before the movies came out, you didn't know Gandalf would come back, so this is an amazing turning point in the story. When Jackson did the movies he decided ha can never keep it a secret (and rightly so), and included him in trailers and film promotion, do no surprises there.
I mean...it would've been kinda pointless for PJ to try and keep Gandalf's return a secret when none of the book-fans would shut up about it. From day one, the fans were practically tripping over each other to spoil all the major plot points so why even try? 😂
I think the scene was handled well, although somewhat abbreviated compared to the books. I missed some of the extended conversations with Treebeard at Wellinghall and the stories of the Entwives, but there's no way that would have worked well in a film without slowing everything down significantly (as the Tom Bombadil chapters would have also done). If Jackson had followed the structure of the books, as Tolkien had intended, it might have worked, but since instead the various storylines were interwoven, it would have been much more difficult to maintain the right pace of the story.
While Legolas doesn't say about how the elves taught the tree how speak, it IS mentioned in the book though. I'm not sure who says it (or if it the narration that say it), I think it was Treebeard who tells this to Merry and Pippin.
If the movie directors intended Gandalf's return as a surprise for the audience who had not read the books, then they blatantly gave it away in the trailer for The Two Towers.
Yeah which is unfortunate because directors/writers don’t necessarily get a lot of say in what goes into marketing and trailers. Think of all the movie trailers these days that are basically just all the plot points of a movie. Like thanks now I don’t have to watch the whole thing lol
The changes made by Jackson hold up well. Rather than alienate Superfans, they add a nice jumping off point for further analysis and discussion...as evidenced by this video series and many other YT creators. Jackson must be bursting with renewed pride about his epic trilogy. Amazon's Rings of Power is so danged awful that the OG and extended versions are even further elevated. Even the ridiculous Hobbit adaptation benefits.
One of the most interesting things about this scene that I noticed was the first time I saw in it was not in high definition and the forest was very dark and foreboding and has a darkness about it. High definition had just come out and the were playing a side by side comparison of this scene I was astonished the high definition, the forest was brighter with golden beams of sunlight and all I could this was that doesn’t look scary at all. Nooooooo. High definition also ruined star wars (original move) as now you could see the screws holding the sets of the death star together.
I like the facelift but i think you still have a problem. When you are moving your face and arms you dont shift your weight at all, at least move your shoulders if you arent going to make every pose full body
Controversial opinion. Christopher Lee should have played Gandalf. No question. Hes a strict old school headmaster archetype... and Tolkien himself suggested Lee.
He was way too old for the physicality of such a huge 3 film part by the time it got filmed. He was born in 1922 which would’ve made him 77-78 when they filmed?
I wonder why Gandalf thought it was a good idea to mess with the integrity of anduril by super-heating it without quenching it, having no water nearby? That would have made the sword brittle and useless, if my basic knowledge of metallurgy is correct, it would de-temper the blade.
@@lokiopensloloc5680it’s not a problem if it’s not superheated to extreme temperatures. You don’t need that sort of temperature to not damage the sword. I guess it was around 200-250C° To hot to hold and to cold to do any damage to andruril
In addition to the facts Tiitto mentioned, your knowledge of metallurgy is wanting, Loki, as you have it just about backward. In addition to the need to heat the particular alloy to its Lower Critical Temperature (1500 F or higher) before any substantive changes can be achieved, meanly letting it air cool would at most anneal it to some degree, and quenching would make it brittle. Quenching is involved in tempering, but the steel is heated to a lower, subcritical temperature, and the typically quenched in oil, not water.
One cool detail in the movies is that you can see Gandalf's cloak is clasped together by the brooch of Lothlorien, implying he was there even if it's not mentioned outright
these small details are what makes these movies so enjoyable to rewatch
Check out what all the choirs say... it ALL has meaning ❤
I have seen some people criticise the fact that Gandalf is portrayed as too human in the films. I understand the criticism, and in the books Tolkien’s writing style, where he tends to write in a slightly detached way, lends itself to Gandalf being a little more other-worldly. It is less easy to maintain that in film, and could have made Gandalf a little flat or stand-offish. With the resurrection scenes Jackson gets the message over to the audience that Gandalf is a little different, without de-humanising a character that has been well fleshed out up to this point. It also gives a good point at which to show a change in pace, where Gandalf is given agency to return and fix things, midway (ish) through the Trilogy. The Fellowship was reactive, on the backfoot, Gandalf the White is proactively taking the fight to Saruman, and eventually Sauron.
If you listen carefully when Gandalf speaks before he is revealed, you can hear that it is not just Saruman's voice but Gandalf's as well, shifting between the other and back. Both Christopher Lee and Ian McKellen recorded the lines and the sound mixers carefully transitioned between the two lines. They also asked Lee and McKellen to imitate each other to add more ambigituity. Philipa Boyens say in the director and writer's commentary that she thought Ian McKellen was better at mimicing Christopher Lee than Lee mimicing McKellen.
A.Mazing
I noticed the mixing when I first watched. To be fair to Lee, his voice is easier to mimic, go deep and Scary!
Gandalf: Swords are of no more use here!
Also Gandalf: slays Balrog with a sword.
Gandalf also said, "This is a foe beyond any of you. Run!" Not, "any of us," but "any of you." That indicates to me, at least, that he foresaw the possibility of having to go weapon-to-weapon with the demon of the ancient world. (Borne out by him handing over leadership of the Fellowship to Aragorn before turning to confront it.)
@@BobBlumenfeld "fly you fools"
So they neck a crate of Redbull
To be fair, he used an elven blade and charged it with lightning before stabbing the Balrog with it (after an already lengthy fight). So both were gravely injured and it looks like that last blast caused the Balrog (and Gandalf) to die. :)
@sststr He used Glamdring, which is an elven sword used by the king of Gondolin. He also called upon lightening to empower the sword, which wasn't anything the others could plus, they had regular blades.
@DanakarEndeel I think Handalf died from exhaustion and from his wounds. After all, he fought for three-four days with no food or sleep.
This series is so much fun and you are doing such a great job with it! I look forward to the new episode every Saturday! Thank you!
Glad you’re enjoying it! I love making them 🙏🏼
Originally, they were going to show how the Balrog became slimey after getting out of the water and Gandalf continue the fight up the Endless Stairs but it turned out to make a slimey Balrog would be so expensive for such a short scene so this bit was cut for budget reasons. Concept art of the Slime Balrog and The Endless Stairs have been made and can be seen on the Extended Edition's behind the scenes material. One version depicts the Balrog as being similiar to his normal form but is black like hardened lava and inbetween the cracks leaks out an oily substance, which presumbly must be burning and could be like its "blood".
These are always great! Being nearly as old as Treebeard, I first read the books many years ago and reread them many times. However, since the movies came out, I mostly have watched them. It is great to be reminded of what the books originally said. I think my opinion is always, love the book version and love the movie version.
This is one of the best chapter in the books and films.
I love how Gandalf just approaching them slowly, the tension is strong and then start to troll them with his words in enigmatic style.
He also put some kind of spell on them or something because they can’t attack who they think is saruman before Gandalf let them of the hook.
"a little taste of Merry and Pippin" over a shot of Gimli tasting orc blood...well played, friend.
I thought this was an acceptable compression of everything that took place in the book, but I did miss Galadriel's messages to the three hunters.
Also, Gimli is a total badass in this chapter, ready to take on Sauruman single-handed.
‘Saruman!’ cried Gimli, springing towards him with axe in hand. ‘Speak! Tell us where you have hidden our friends! What have you done with them? Speak, or I will make a dint in your hat that even a wizard will find it hard to deal with!’
_-The White Rider_
04:10 Shadowfax was not Gandalf’s horse at this point. Theoden had not yet gifted him. That happened after Gandalf freed Theoden from Wormtongue’s influence.
“But as for your gift, lord, I will choose one that will fit my need: swift and sure. Give me Shadowfax! He was only lent before, if loan we may call it.”- Gandalf
“Since Gandalf’s head is now sacred, let us find one that is right to cleave!”
Gimli in the end of the White Rider chapter once Gandalf tells him the message from Galadriel :)
Last time I was this early, olorin was still afraid
Love your face lift! Contrary to popular beliefs, it shows more emotion 😂
Thank you! Plus, I was getting tired of holding my arms up for the last six months.
I loved Jackson's interpretation. It fills in a lot of info about Gandalf for a presumably ignorant audience (that's he's in no way human, that his identity takes many forms, and that 'wizards' are much more than magic users and are connected to a higher level of creation) while also gifting book readers with some exciting easter eggs to latch onto.
I remember there was a George Martin interview where he talked about Gandalf's return saying how he always preferred gandalf the grey over gandalf the white, and also criticized the trope of characters coming back to life with no consequences, and he explains that's why in his books there are consequences to characters resurrecting.
Now I personally agree that bringing characters back to life can ruin the death scenes of said characters, and it removes the risk of death, but I also disagree specifically with the example of gandalf, his return as gandalf the white has such a important rule not just in the story itself but also a thematic importance, gandalf was sent to middle earth to guide it's peoples and acts like a beacon of hope and encouragement in the face of overwhelming odds, him coming back as gandalf the white who is wiser and more powerful makes the situation seem less hopeless and makes it feel that we might stand a chance against Sauron's unstoppable forces.
I can't even begin to imagine how different lotr would have been if we didn't have gandalf the white.
Also, Gandalf is not just "a character", he is a Maia, so the usual rules don't really apply. We need look non further than Frodo to see a character changed by near-death experience.
George Martin definitely has a point. But within the story it makes sense with Gandalf, considering what he is.
George Martin is just dumb and takes everything literally. It isn’t real to him unless you know how every person in Minas Tirith is taking a dump. The strange thing is there is a definitive consequence for Gandalfs resurrection; in that he literally isn’t long for the world. He hasn’t been resurrected ; it’s more like he’s been temporarily reanimated, and only under the condition that he has to leave and return to the undying lands once his task is completed.
Peter slipped up briefly in The Two Towers film when Gandalf chastises Theoden for wanting to go to Helm's Deep. It's as if Gandalf conveniently forgot that the most defensible position is absolutely needed when confronting a superior size army.
With no way out, just run was the idea
“He says they know his name. Which in his opinion I guess he thinks means he doesn’t have to tell them” I mean that’s what I do😂
I’m glad you mentioned the biblical stuff, because I was thinking of the transfiguration with Peter, James and John.
Yes, I’ve caught that similarity as well.
Very road to damascas
@@CloudslnMyCoffee Also very road to Emmaus 🤓
@@phosphorus4 you right!
I just read this scene last night! Good timing.
Now that I've binge watched the whole series to this point, I subscribed. :) Looking forward to the rest of it.
Welcome to the community!
I consider a major character change Aragorn urging Legolas to shoot. Even though the movie sets up more certainty for the approaching character to be Saruman, they still don't know for sure, and even if it was indeed Saruman, they don't know his intentions. Shooting from distance like that basically constitutes an ambush, which goes against the ethical values of a hero that Aragorn is supposed to be.
My weird theory is that Gandalf didn’t cause Anduril to flame. He froze it in Aragorn’s hand, but the sword itself flamed in recognition of Gandalf. “the light of the sun shone redly in [Anduril] and the light of the moon shone cold” (FOTR, The Ring Goes South). Gandalf told the balrog that he is a wielder of the flame of Anor (sun). The sun is the last light of Laurelin, aka holy light. Gandalf, because he is a servant of the Secret Fire (Iluvatar), wields holy light against the evil creatures; Anduril reflects that holy light, and Aragorn uses it against evil creatures. The holy light reflected in the sword kindles when the wielder of that holy light returns in his resurrected form.
Outstanding!
That’s not even a weird theory; that’s just brilliant!
@@jefffinkbonner9551 Thanks. It just makes sense. It's always bothered me a little that Gandalf would do something to hurt Aragorn when he just deflected the other weapons.
@@kentfletcher8539 Thank you. It’s a fairly recent thought.
Love following this series! I just got the Fellowship of the Ring book a few days ago and already, while I have seen the episodes of this series, reading felt different and definitely different from the movie!
Awesome! It’s always great to relive these moments through Tolkien’s original words.
@@factorfantasyweekly True that! I am hooked!
I think you did a really good job breaking everything down and you have earned my subscription even though this is the first or "maybe" second video of yours I've watched. 😃
Treebeard didn't sing, he was reciting poetry.
In some audiobooks that were released long before the films, he does still sing. In the Recorded Books version narrated by Rob Inglis, for example.
@@keithtorgersen9664 We're talking about the movies here, not audio books.
The Change 20 scene (extended edition addition) is also well shot. IMO, The tone of voice and blue light around the characters is a nice foreshadowing of Frodo's success...that Jackson did not want to "reveal" in the Theatrical release.
The only missed opportunity here was the nameless things he should have had the fight with the balrog been longer and showing the nameless things gnawing on the roots of the mountains at least in passing
No, just no. The entire point of the nameless things is to be just that, a nameless thing. Something that gives the world a bit of mystery, just like Tom Bombadil, or the disappearance of the Entwives. They are never given a description of their appearance, hell they don't even have a name, so how do you propose they show something on film that's never been given a description? At most, perhaps Gandalf could have been given a line saying he had saw them, but what's the point? Non-book readers wouldn't get the reference, and book readers already know the reference. Just let mysteries be mysteries, they were written that way for a reason.
@Grimhart89 well thank you for your opinion the balrog was also supposed to be in League with the Orcs And approximately man size so if he can make changes to that he can make changes to whatever he wants
One thing that is missed in the movies that is sad is the part that talks about how Gandalf kept Sauron from figuring out where Frodo is. I love the idea of them having this "battle" happening in the minds over middle earth.
I enjoy your analysis of the fims vs the books.
I love these videos. They are so calming and interesting.
Btw I ordered the lotr trilogy books for christmas
I also just noticed that you updated your character design
Exciting! Enjoy the read through. 🙏🏼
@@factorfantasyweekly Thanks man. I really appreaciate
I think Peter Jackson did an amazing job at evoking the same feelings as the book. He obviously had to translate a few details to make that happen. The reveal in the book just wouldn't play well on screen. The visuals that would've had to have been employed in order to maintain the same level of ignorance for the viewer would have been rather corny and bordering on implausible. Peter Jackson used the same principle, only visually rather than linguistically. And some things that might've been conveyed through dialogue in the book would've been redundant in the film. For instance, we see Gandalf's fight with Durin's Bane, eliminating any need for Gandalf to recount it in detail. So, yeah, the reveal in the film is masterfully done to capture the same experience.
I remember one of the friends I went to see the Return of the King with at the cinema exclaimed 'of course!', when Pippin shouts "the eagles are coming!'. He'd not read the the Hobbit or the LOTR books and I'm not sure he'd seen the previous films. If the filming, run times and budgets had allowed Gwaihir to appear more periodically through the other two films and fleshed him out as a character and not used the eagles as a deus ex machina this would have greatly improved the trilogy as a whole. It would have been a good callback to his rescue from Orthanc if nothing else.
I seem to remember gandalf not quite remembering the name he went by in middle earth as well.
"He didn't go alone, Sam went with him."
"Did he now? Good, very good."
You have to love how it's Aragorn/Legolas who would look to Gandalf to restore hope giving that restoration of hope to Gandalf with just one recounting of friendship
4:52 accidentally put character twice instead of location lol no big deal love the series!!
Oopsie! Thanks for watching 🙏🏼
Gandalf's return in the movie was handled extremely well IMO. Ian McKellen did such a phenomenal job as Gandalf and this whole scene was one of my favorites from the trilogy, actually. Yeah, it has a few changes resulting from other changes in the folms, but it doesn't matter. It still comes across the way it should.
I love your videos, and this is one of my favorite scenes (book or movie).
I’ve got a nosy question: why does your hobbit avatar wear boots? Is he Trotter?
I am just avoiding any feet pics 👀💀
Pretty sure Jackson took visual cues for Gandalf's return from the Hildebrandt Brothers' illustration of the scene in their famous 1978 Tolkien calendar art.
what gets me is that Jackson went through all of this trouble and then proceeded to have the literal angel...humiliated by being disgraced and put down by the Witch King of Angmar which also never happened. I do think the movie vs. even the cartoon made the Balrog's battle utterly minimal (the Balrog's fall shattered a freaking mountain completely....he didn't just run out of flame and puff out like a dying fly); but I would argue that as another user said just below, Jackson did much better in making him more 'gentle' rather than aloof, which was done with excellence by Sir Ian McKellan, who still maintained that seeming otherworldly distance at times, but in other times you could see Nienna's influence (whose teachings Olorín/Gandalf had taken to heart in Valinor, as the Lady of Tears taught him compassion).
IMO the Gandulf reveal in the movies is spot on to how it needed to be handled for a movie. There are some changes I'd like to have not been done, but I understand Peter Jackson's reasoning behind them.
Never understood why White Gandalf does not remember his name by this point, because before this he met the hobbits and Treebeard, and surely they called him on his name. Strange. Any thoughts?
Personally, I never took his dialogue with Aragorn as meaning he forgot his name. You can tell he is being playful about it (in typical Gandalf style) and using the phrasing to emphasize that he isn’t Gandalf the Grey anymore but Gandalf the White. It’s like if your buddy got a promotion at work and you said “Assistant Manager” and they were like “Nah fam in GENERAL Manager now!”
@@factorfantasyweekly Cheers, that helps. One way to look at it.
@@Unikornis86 Actually, they took this dialogue from the book. In the book, Merry and Pippin have not met Gandalf yet, they meet him for the first time in Isengard when Gandalf comes to ask from Treebeard help for the battle of Helm's Deep, so it makes perfect sense. Merry and Pippin describe this scene to Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli while eating and smoking before they meet Saruman in Orthanc (after the Helm's Deep).
Treebeard had seen Gandalf wandering after he had helped Frodo escape from Sauron's eye in Amon Hen but he hadn't talked to him. There is a good chance before meeting the three hunters that Gandalf the White had only met Galadriel and the elves of Lorien (they probably used Mithrandir) and Gwaihir
@@georgep7373 Thanks, I did not know that difference between book and movie. So the movie deceived me with the ending of the first scene between the hobbits and Treebeard, when he drops them at the feet of Gandalf (white robes). Thanks for clearing it up.
@@Unikornis86 You are welcome! Here is how Pippin describes the scene.
(they were trying to find some place to rest among the ruins in Isengard when a rider in white came). I just sat up staring, with my mouth open. I tried to call out but couldn't.
There was no need. He halted just by us and looked down at us. "Gandalf" I said at last, but my voice was only a whisper. Did he say: "Hullo Pippin! This is a pleasant surprise?" No, indeed! He said: "Get up, you tom-fool of a Took! Where in the name of wonder, in this ruin is Treebeard? I want him. Quick!
It'd be pretty hard to drag out the "disguised" Gandalf part given that the audience would immediately recognize Sir Ian. Being a visual medium, that kinda had to be cut down.
Peter Jackson thought during the writing about showing a naked Gandalf walking though Lothlorien for directions, as he talks about it in the commentary. It's difficult to tell whever he was serious about it but went against the idea as how tricky it would have been to film this without causing problem with the censors (or because he thought than that the pacing would have slowed the movie to a crawl) or if he was joking as he is known for pulling pranks and jokes about certain stuff.
Does anyone else need subtitles to understand Gandalf in that scene with Aragorn? He whispers and mumbles at the same time!
An interesting detail is that Gandalf detests the word/name "the Balrog".
'Name him not!' said Gandalf, and for a moment it seemed that a cloud of pain passed over his face, and he sat silent, looking old as death.
It is the last time the word is mentioned in the entire trilogy, except when Faramir mentions it during his conversation with Frodo about his adventures. Throughout his account of the battle in the mountain, Gandalf instead calls the Balrog he, him, or my enemy. I'm sure Tolkien very deliberately did so to further show how unpleasant Gandalf's experience of the encounter was.
They definitely made it epic in the movies but I also appreciate the paralells to Jesus in the books, what with him coming back to life and meeting people who knew him who haven't recognized him yet.
Another change about Gandalf's return. Not so much about the plot, but for the audiences. When you read the books before the movies came out, you didn't know Gandalf would come back, so this is an amazing turning point in the story. When Jackson did the movies he decided ha can never keep it a secret (and rightly so), and included him in trailers and film promotion, do no surprises there.
I mean...it would've been kinda pointless for PJ to try and keep Gandalf's return a secret when none of the book-fans would shut up about it. From day one, the fans were practically tripping over each other to spoil all the major plot points so why even try? 😂
Congratulations on the facelift!
I think the scene was handled well, although somewhat abbreviated compared to the books. I missed some of the extended conversations with Treebeard at Wellinghall and the stories of the Entwives, but there's no way that would have worked well in a film without slowing everything down significantly (as the Tom Bombadil chapters would have also done). If Jackson had followed the structure of the books, as Tolkien had intended, it might have worked, but since instead the various storylines were interwoven, it would have been much more difficult to maintain the right pace of the story.
0:44 good old friends
Shadowfax is described as being silver.
Because Peter Jackson made him white, he is most of the time being drawn as white ever since.
I say Peter Jackson did an epic job of whittling off from the book what was superfluous in the films.
But then The Hobbit happened.
Tolkien's LotR: Timeless classic
Jackson's LotR: Magnificient adaptation
Amazon's RoP: Complete trash
Very good.
While Legolas doesn't say about how the elves taught the tree how speak, it IS mentioned in the book though. I'm not sure who says it (or if it the narration that say it), I think it was Treebeard who tells this to Merry and Pippin.
Yea I believe in the Treebeard chapter there’s quite a bit of dialogue in which a history lesson like that is given. Except way more in depth.
Since Treebeard mistakes M&P for Orcs, it might be Orc blood from earlier encounters.
He 100% did I agreed he did
If the movie directors intended Gandalf's return as a surprise for the audience who had not read the books, then they blatantly gave it away in the trailer for The Two Towers.
Yeah which is unfortunate because directors/writers don’t necessarily get a lot of say in what goes into marketing and trailers. Think of all the movie trailers these days that are basically just all the plot points of a movie. Like thanks now I don’t have to watch the whole thing lol
Isn't the Welling Hall missing in the movie? It is one of my favourite places in the book.
Wouldn't Gandalf have heard Merry & Pepin call him "Gandalf" when he met them earlier? Not remembering his name not long afterwards seems odd.
The changes made by Jackson hold up well. Rather than alienate Superfans, they add a nice jumping off point for further analysis and discussion...as evidenced by this video series and many other YT creators. Jackson must be bursting with renewed pride about his epic trilogy. Amazon's Rings of Power is so danged awful that the OG and extended versions are even further elevated. Even the ridiculous Hobbit adaptation benefits.
He did indeed.
There is a location change in the book the meeting taking place on a cliff is significant no cliff in the movie
One of the most interesting things about this scene that I noticed was the first time I saw in it was not in high definition and the forest was very dark and foreboding and has a darkness about it. High definition had just come out and the were playing a side by side comparison of this scene I was astonished the high definition, the forest was brighter with golden beams of sunlight and all I could this was that doesn’t look scary at all. Nooooooo. High definition also ruined star wars (original move) as now you could see the screws holding the sets of the death star together.
Calling the Lord of the Rings the best trilogy ever made is like saying the sky is blue.
Yes. And?
oh sh*t i caught up already :(
I like the facelift but i think you still have a problem. When you are moving your face and arms you dont shift your weight at all, at least move your shoulders if you arent going to make every pose full body
Pixel Art Gibbi > 4K Gibbi ;-) (easier to imagine the first blundering about an old school computer LOTR style dungeon)
Character difference: Shadowfax is silver in the book, not white.
Beter Jackson did a great job, but he simply did not give magic the attention is deserved.
Huh? Gandalf's returning scene in the movie lasts less than two minutes. On what basis can that be considered "epic"?
Jordan hitting his game winning shot over Craig Ehlo was about 5seconds- one of the most epic moments in sports
Controversial opinion.
Christopher Lee should have played Gandalf. No question.
Hes a strict old school headmaster archetype... and Tolkien himself suggested Lee.
He was way too old for the physicality of such a huge 3 film part by the time it got filmed. He was born in 1922 which would’ve made him 77-78 when they filmed?
Character timeline character shirt pls
💀
Im one of the 40%
🙌
Dude... is Gandalf an aftrganga?
Olorin
don't you mean "grand elf" 🤦♂️🤭
I wonder why Gandalf thought it was a good idea to mess with the integrity of anduril by super-heating it without quenching it, having no water nearby? That would have made the sword brittle and useless, if my basic knowledge of metallurgy is correct, it would de-temper the blade.
I think that the uhh fantastical magical enchantments and such might kind of uhh... trump your knowledge of metallurgical processes
@@AJ0223 so... magical heat is not, in fact, heat, in your fantasy world? Was Aragorn just being a silly billy, dropping it like that, kid?
@@lokiopensloloc5680it’s not a problem if it’s not superheated to extreme temperatures.
You don’t need that sort of temperature to not damage the sword.
I guess it was around 200-250C°
To hot to hold and to cold to do any damage to andruril
In addition to the facts Tiitto mentioned, your knowledge of metallurgy is wanting, Loki, as you have it just about backward. In addition to the need to heat the particular alloy to its Lower Critical Temperature (1500 F or higher) before any substantive changes can be achieved, meanly letting it air cool would at most anneal it to some degree, and quenching would make it brittle. Quenching is involved in tempering, but the steel is heated to a lower, subcritical temperature, and the typically quenched in oil, not water.
This is great work you’re doing, but you’ve talked about nothing for the first six minutes.
Don’t bore us, get to the chorus!
I put timestamps so people can skip to the plot changes if they don’t wanna hear me yap 💀
Big fan of Tolkien and the movies… but the movies are far from perfect… they could have actually been better.
True fact, the dwarf version of AIDS was started by grimly when drinking or h blood here ……truly terrible