I want to congratulate and thank Corey for having the vision to start this channel. Every person on the Monroe team deserves this recognition and they have you to thank for it.
Question for you if you live in a colder climate; how does your truck pre-heat the battery after it's been sitting overnight in the freezing cold? Some guy made a comment that his neighbor's Lightning turned into a brick in the freeze we just had.
@@FelixTheCat69 You keep it plugged into the charger and the battery heaters heat up the battery when you precondition prior to scheduled departure or when you remote start, just have to give it time to warm up before hammering it. Can’t speak for what the other person’s neighbor did.
@@FelixTheCat69 To expand on what Sean said, a small emersion heater, not unlike one in your electric water heater at home, heats coolant that is circulated through the coolant plates under the cells. Electric coolant pumps circulate the coolant. Keeping it plugged in should work, especially with preheating.
Man I’m chomping at the bits here! I am a Production Supervisor for SKBA, the US based headquarters here in Ga. The NDA in our contracts prevent us from saying anything at all about what we build, but some of the comments are spot on while others are way off base (ahem…heat transfer). Truly enjoyed this video guys, it was intriguing seeing it from the outside in. Keep up the great work.
5k miles in I had my SR XLT Max Trailor Tow Package with 9.4kwh kit had a bettery module go bad and show low voltage, they had to replace it. It was done in about 1 1/2 months, the battery assembly itself came relatively quickly, 5 days. the main problem was getting a new lift JUST for the truck to be worked on. Runs like a champ still, loving it.
Thank you for these videos. I help mentor a high-school robotics team (frc) and I very often find great little lessons for our students (for example the ~90 seconds on GD&T in this video at about 4:05 or so).
Munro live is an edutainment/infotainment channel showing application of the abstract and all of it's members get a chance to explain stuff it is one of the few channels which can make people watch long videos with enthusiasm and is it's strength.
20:45 - Mach-e has no SK Innovation cells. These are pouch cells from LG Energy (LGX E71a). Their chemistry is likely NMC-721. The cells from F-150 Lightning are supplied by SK Innovation (as you said), likely with NMC 9 0.5 0.5 chemistry. So considerably more Nickel, less manganese and less cobalt. The Mach-e is more similar to the Chevrolet Bolt because both packs are essentially engineered by LG Energy Solution (or LGChem as they were called earlier).
19:45 - what are the electrical plug for the connectors on the cast aluminum ends of the LG MachE modules, so I can buy a pigtail and connect a module to a balancer???
@@DavidHalko Don't know. If you have a careful look at the connector you should be able to read the connector manufacturer's name and then continue your search from there. Also many connectors have a typical pin distance of pins, i.e. the uniform distance between pins measured from center to center. Some common header pitches are: 5.08 mm (0.200 in) 3.96 mm (0.156 in) 2.54 mm (0.100 in) with 0.64 mm (0.025 in) square pins or precision machined 0.50 mm (0.020 in) round pins 2.00 mm (0.079 in) with 0.50 mm (0.020 in) square pins 1.27 mm (0.050 in) 1.00 mm (0.0394 in) This pitch together with the layout of the pins (row count and column count) gives a good idea, what to search for. From there you can then get universal connector pigtails to interface with the connector. For stationary indoor use this will suffice. Once you need all the automotive characteristics like protection against dust, moisture, vibration and so on, you will need a proper locking connector with proper sealing however.
Hi@@koeniglicher - I own 4 of the 8s4p batteries, from a MachE, I started backward engineering the pin outs, I now know enough pins to make it useful, but not enough to figure out what the manufacturer of the connector is. I tried to go to ford, to buy some cabling, but they wanted a VIN, which I do not have. I just need a stationary application. I used breadboard to header pin wire extenders to connect to the 2x sockets on each battery, but those wires are very thin. I may be stuck with them. 👎 Maybe I can take some more photos, zoom in more, and take your suggestion…
@@DavidHalko Google and some of the other major search companies offer a search function that can identify what is in the camera view, or possibly what is in a picture. I haven't really used this feature myself, so I can't speak to how good it is, especially with a more esoteric part, but I know this search capability exists. If you're still having a hard time figuring it out, you could always use a micrometer or caliper to try and capture both the size of the pin, and also the pin spacing. If you do decide to try this, be very careful to not accidentally short two live conductors. If they're shorted you could possibly kill the caliper, any circuitry inside the cell/pack, or anything else that might become energized by the voltage, up to and including you. One other thing to keep in mind, is that how you use the Calipers and/or micrometer will absolutely influence the readings you get. Trying to measure the exact dimensions of the pins themselves, along with the pitch of the conductors in the receptacle is something that would need to be performed very carefully, and likely repeated more than a couple times so that you can be as sure as possible what the exact dimensions are for your new plug.
Just one of the larger modules has the same capacity as the entire (useable) battery in my gen 1 BMW i3 (~16 kWh). Whilst cell chemistry and energy density has improved, it is the better packing ratio that is really driving that change!
expensive to built this ford lighting battery back as what I understand. Munro channel has educated my understanding of these batteries how they are put together.
Masterful explanations and just the right level of detail. Excellent 'off the cuff' presentation skills and give high confidence of their background/knowledge.
Thanks for sharing this. I recently accepted work as a battery manufacturing engineer working on pack assembly for Ford so you speaking of the next iteration of the cooling system is like you speaking directly to me haha. Thanks for sharing.
Finally some serviceability. I never would have guessed that Ford would be the one to bring it, but yet I'm very happy to see someone is taking it into consideration.
I would guess serviceability is less about future upgrades; this is most certainly about large corporations managing their risk as they enter new technology spaces.
This is encouraging. I wonder if Munro can give viewers a guess as to when we might start to see aftermarket replacements for batteries and related tech. It makes more sense for a 3rd party to enter that market once serviceability is really feasible. With batteries it makes sense to replace degraded units, but as the tech improves (which is happening fast) it would also make sense to replace them with lighter ones or higher capacities, or longer lasting ones. My Leaf is running at about 90% range after 7 years so replacement for me doesn't make sense yet, and it might not in future if Nissan still wants to charge as much for a replacement battery as they want today, but perhaps a 3rd party would change that (for all auto makers). Competition is good.
Nice video. For those who bought and admire with this truck - your battery problems will start on the 4th year of use or earlier. Soft packs+prismatic shape = worst for customer, but cheapest for manufacturer. Plus no adequate cooling will cause cells puffing = fast degradation.
Those slots in the aluminum plate also allow the plate to expand and contract, changing in length, without stressing the fastening areas. That's probably intentional to keep the aluminum flat instead of bulging up and down.
Starting to remind me of furniture making by designing in wood expansion and contraction among the parts so the unit doesn't pull itself apart. Such an old principle being used now in this newer technology. Also happy to see the packs are serviceable. There were those who thought the Tesla solution was just fine but it seemed contrary to the direction one would like to go in with permanent fixing and very cumbersome removal. It too reminded me how in woodworking one doesn't want to design anything that makes it impossible for the next person to fix or remove etc. Not a principle always shared among those making furniture or vehicles for that matter. But still best practice.
Tesla's approach has a lot of advantages. Mainly the pack can be structural, which saves tons of cost and weight. And new Tesla batteries are so reliable and long lasting that they are very unlikely to need service. I think Tesla should include battery replacement in it's insurance product, maybe even without any added cost. With such rare replacement the cost would be negligible, but it would reassure customers.
@@andrasbiro3007 The advantages are all for the manufacturer not the end user. Even minor damage to a Tesla battery pack from debris on a highway striking the pack become a $24,000 repair bill since the pack is not repairable.
@@andrasbiro3007 -- When you claim a battery pack is "structural," you are also saying the the pack will be twisted about as you drive. Can you say, "Accident Waiting to Happen?" Seriously, I suspect that FMC is going to settle on the hybrid model for its EVs. The battery pack will be smaller and wouldn't be expected to be a part of the frame. Making it "repairable" is nice and, I suspect this will become the new standard. I would say it's even money whether Elon has some folks working on "repairable" packs.
@@heathwirt8919 You keep ignoring the value of the failed battery with that bogus $24k figure. Ever hear of a "core credit"? even a cheap water pump has a core value which reduces the purchase cost. The "core credit" for a giant expensive battery would likely be > 2/3 of the cost of a new one.
In LG Chem modules (such as the Mach E and Bolt, and the Chrysler Pacifica Hybrid), the segmented housing allows a heat transfer plate to be sandwiched between each pair of cells, extending through the bottom of the module and bending 90 degrees to form a surface which is pressed against the thermal management plate (through paste or a suitable sheet material). This SKI design doesn't have that feature, with a complete bottom side to the module box, a feature shared with many other modules include all of the VDA 355 format variants, and apparently with no heat transfer plates. Yes, that does seem like it will make a significant difference in heat transfer ability.
Just to sum up and repeat the battery configuration: *Extended Range battery pack:* (143.47 kWh gross/131 kWh net capacity) total is 96s 5p of SK Innovation pouch cells (480 cells in total) with 82 Ah each. Smaller module: 11.95 kWh gross capacity = 40 cells wired in 8s5p. 1 unit of this module. Larger modules: 16.44 kwh gross capacity = 55 cells wired in 11s5p. 8 units of this module in 2 layers. *Standard Range battery pack:* (107.55 kWh gross/98 kWh net capacity) (my estimate based on your information) Likely: Smaller module: 11.95 kWh gross capacity = 40 cells wired as 10s4p of these cells. 9 units of this module. Makes a total of 90s 4p (360 cells). Ford said earlier, it would be NMC-9 0.5 0.5 (Hi-Nickel) cells.
So the standard range pack still has nine modules in two layers? That may be, but it would be an unnecessarily expensive way to build it. A more rational design would have the minimum number of modules possible, to reduce both structure and cooling complexity. The Mach E has fewer modules in the standard version than the extended version, with only one layer in the standard version.
@@brianb-p6586 I don't know for sure. This is just my best guess. We will know it, once anyone has disassembled a standard range battery pack of an F-150 Lightning and shared his findings. Or you can make a best guess yourself and reply how they fit e.g. 364 cells (91s4p) into 7 modules (about 52 cells each). Then they would make 7s modules a 13s4p. Still, it looks like you cannot get 7 modules into one layer of this pack. So some of the modules will need to be stacked on top anyways.
Thanks for loads of useful info ,some good tactics used by Ford ,it looks like everything is very serviceable which is great ,for when the vehicle reaches end of life . was reading a post in another youtube video , where a guy described the job of replacing a module , what made it super difficult and time consuming was the heat transfer plate and the heat conducting paste ,rather than a direct swap module for module ,in a quick and easy job , it takes a significant ammount of time to mess around with the paste , this is superbad for the dealer service centre costs and customer cost. It also looks like there is alot more room in the battery housing pack for more battery capacity in future lightning models.
I suspect that the intercell "foam" pad is also for thermal control. Making sure all your cells are at the same temperature is really important for even aging, so that foam pad which looks like it may have some low thermal impedance loading material (it looks to be fairly heavy which is normally an indicator of this)acts to allow heat to move laterally through the cell stack.
The battery management system covers such problems. On the whole, it's generally necessary to cool the entire battery. The foam just keeps things in place.
Cooling is only really relevant in high-load situations, fast-charging in particular. Under driving use, the actual C-rating on the cell is completely trivial, leading to negligible heating. TBH, _heating_ the pack is the issue in colder climates
For cooling, be aware of fluid dynamics boundary layer effects. Also limitation of how much "sensible" heat a static fluid can absorb. Re your safety culture, once cell junctions removed, potential for high voltage effectively zero. It’d be wise to remove warnings to prevent "warning fatigue". It might be a cell-short fire danger, not a high voltage danger.
You guys get to do some fun stuff! Thanks for sharing. This helps to understand what is going on with the different manufacturers batteries. Very interesting stuff.
I gawd I love tearing these packs down. They’re so cool to see and make me more comfortable buying one maybe one day. Maybe one day all these little parts will be available in auto parts stores making DIY an option for electric repair geeks.
I do like a serviceable pack, with modules one could re-use in other projects. Like the original tesla modules. These could become quite popular for that. The modern monolithic foam-gooped fasternless packs are no use at all for that sort of thing.
This is a common misconception. The 4680 is designed to be recycled. The whole pack, foam and all, will get turned into a slurry and its components separated out into raw materials. Check out Redwood materials, they just got a $2B loan from the US govt to expand their planned battery materials campus in Nevada. Facilities and ones like it will be instrumental to the battery supply chain in the future.
@@aybase Recycling does little good for the vehicle owner stuck with a $20,000 battery replacement bill! It also doesn't allow for reuse of the batteries. This is pure greed to get more money out of customers!
@@DavidJohnson-tv2nn Nope. It tells me Tesla has confidence in its product and that it will not need replacement. Having modular design like this tells me that they know the battery tech will fail and are anticipating making many replacements. Also, the Tesla structural battery solution increases efficiency for both manufacturing and performance.
@@themonsterunderyourbed9408 And I'm sure you know better. There isn't a product ever designed that doesn't need repairs. You make a bold claim with no evidence to support it. The GM design recognizes reality and makes it easier for the customer. The Tesla design screams "F" the customer! Let them buy a new car from us! Just like the evil Apple corporation and their anti-consumer attitude.
@19:20 the Mach E isn't just a model year different, it is from a different supplier, despite the claim @20:45 that the Mach E has "the same SK Innovations cell". That's why it is constructed differently. Of course SKI and LG Chem modules vary in their details. The Bolt and Mach E modules are alike because they are two instances of the same LG Chem product line, unlike the SKI modules in the Lightning.
the lightening and mach e battery differences ,shows ford still need to make improvements on there battery pack constructions, currently as you demonstrated non commonality between the two, which has added parts & costs/time to the production of the battery packs, ford should have opted for one or the other and then reduced the parts, thanks Jordan & Antoinio for the video :) :)
I expect every EV maker will continue evolving/improving battery pack designs with each new generation of vehicles. Tesla has and does build multiple different kinds of battery packs with different base cell sizes and different chemistries (Tesla China is reported making many LiPO based vehicles). The materials and industry are not mature enough for there to be a permanent "right way" declared yet.
I'd say the reason there is only one alignment hole in the cooling pack is because aluminium expands and contracts with heat. If there are two fixed points the pan will bow, either away from the pack limiting cooling or into the pack, stressing the batteries.
Just got my Lightning and no wonder it can't charge as fast as other design. Instead of those black rubber they should have put in cooling plate between the cells. This would allow them to have better control on thermal.
@@brianb-p6586 Yeah, you took your roll of camera film to the drug store and got your pictures on paper back three days later. Back then a cordless phone was one that was disconnected and not working.
One important point is that the pouch cells (remember: they need to be in compression) will breathe, that is , change their thickness, with every charge-discharge-cycle. The actual hard electrode layers change their thickness as the Lithium Ions are moved in and out. And of course the bags will swell up with gas as the cells age. And there's temperature changes. So that's why the foam is a really clever solution.
Great video, very interesting and informative. The "foam" strips are in-between every other cell, instead of every cell. That is the same configuration as aluminum cooling plates in the Bolt EV and the same as the liquid cooling plates in the Volt EREV [PHEV]. This provides cooling on one side of every cell. So, I wonder if the "foam" material is thermally conductive? If so, that would make more sense than just cooling the bottom edge where the thermal putty is.
The LG modules have the foam layers every second cell interface, too; they are not for heat transfer in either the LG design or the SKI design. In the LG stack, foam sheets and aluminum heat transfer plates alternate. Where the LG stack has the aluminum plates the SKI stack doesn't have anything - the cells are in direct contact.
Would enjoy a video about 3D printing and it’s application in the auto industry. With 3D printing the coolant system could be integrated directly into the battery, instead of a separate component. Thanks. Excellent videos.
The enclosure is leaky enough that the rubber probably isn't for venting. The rubber has two functions. The first function is to provide electrical isolation to the cut edge of the cell pouch. If the cut edge of the cell pouch makes contact with aluminum module enclosure (chassis ground) you could have a loss of isolation or a reduction in isolation. The second is to provide clearance to edge of the cell. The edge at that location of the cell dips below the bottom surface and if clearance wasn't provided you would have cell pouch failure due to the stress applied at the corner.
11:10 In Germany we call this "Wortakrobatik" literally translates to "word acrobatics". Future terrorists will tell the police, that they placed a "compressed element getting expanded from within" - not a "bomb" after the "blow off event" or "thermal event" or "outgasing event". SCNR. 😉
Yes, just like almost every other pouch cell module, but particularly easy because the BMS is external to the module so an alternate BMS could be used instead of trying to talk to proprietary Ford systems. Unfortunately the capacity is so high that they won't be useful unless the conversion needs either low voltage or high total pack capacity.
Great work as ever Munro Team! That's a pretty horrible cooling path. Is there no interstitial conductive plate between the cells to take the thermal flux from the cell face to the end of the cell at the base? Poor. The foam strips are to manage expansion while keeping an even pressure on the cell. Pouch cells require a degree of preload to work best.
As a retired consulting mechanical and electrical engineer, it looks like the cooling plate is in the wrong location. If I'm seeing this correctly, the plate is at the bottom of the battery pack. So the bottom of the pack stays cool, but the heat rises to the top of the pack, so there is a major temperature differential within the pack. My understanding is that Tesla (and perhaps others) circulates a fluid throughout the battery pack in such manner as to introduce cooling (when required) along the sides of the batteries. In designing building cooling systems, we never introduced cooling air at the floor of the building because it just wouldn't work.
Heat "rises" in air, not in fixed structures, like a sealed battery pack. The cells themselves have a semi-liquid electrolyte dispersed withing the plates, but it would an extremely minimal ability to convect.
@@wizzyno1566 " ...heat rises to the top of the pack" What is that supposed to mean? Heat does not "conduct" up. Absolutely, having the cooling plate at the bottom of the pack limits its overall effectiveness, but with modern cells, the IR is so low and the C-rate so low during driving, heat is hardly an issue any more. The pack needing to be _heated_ in colder climates is really the issue.
Yet you were consulting engineer! There is huge amount of science & practice behind battery cooling. Solutions often not what pub crowd expected. Even Sandy got this wrong one time.
Good video. I appreciate that Ford, GM, and some others are making the effort to make batteries serviceable. This helps to ensure that these vehicles can have long lives, not cut short by an "Uneconomical to Repair" future. I remember claims that failed batteries would surely send the Prius to an early grave. all it takes is Googling "Rebuilt Prius Battery" to prove that wrong. Note: The Chevrolet Volt was the first with the longitudinal bolt design. That battery sandwiched cooling plates between every few cells. Expensive, yes, but those batteries survive quite well in the challenging daily 100-0% life of a PHEV.
Yes but your comparing an old prius battery that cost 20k for 8kwh pack today you can get 80kwh pack for 10k-15k prices are coming down 10 more years I bet there be in the 5000 range
@@lesstevens2370 Sorry for late reply. I would encourage you to check Tesla prices for out of warranty 2012 replacement batteries. It's near twice what you say. Tesla will brick or restrict your car if they find that you have repaired or replaced the battery yourself. Meanwhile private companies are popping up that can service batteries. Weber University trains and ASE certifies mechanics to service EVs and their batteries.
@Miata822 well yeah 11 year old 18650 battery tech which are being discontinued and replaced with either the 2780 or the 4680 versions that's why it cost more and the 4680 is the cheapest option for batteries since you don't need thousands of them anymore unlike those old 18650 batteries
Jordan is very articulate, making things very understandable. Good job! Antonio, with the word "Hold", the "L" is pronounced. So it's not "Hoo-D", it's "Hole-D".
Interesting take on consolidating the cooling plate. Considering serviceability and costs over time, I would think it's better to have the more modular cooling plates over a single larger brazed assembly. Can't imagine an ID4 having a cooling plate issue after a fender bender and having to replace the entire thing. Brazing larger assemblies isn't a capability many have so to support lower costing of that part, you need to be able to multi source.
Rather than foam strips, I would rather see aluminum plates used as partitions between each cell. Apply a little thermal compound, and those plates can serve as heat sinks, efficiently transferring heat from the flat surfaces of the cells, to the outside of the case. Those aluminum plates would have flanges, like I-beams, so that screws can be used between their edges and the top and bottom plates of the battery modules. That would make the flat coolant plates much more effective at getting the heat from the cells, to the coolant. The biggest thing, is that it would put significant thermal mass between a failed cell and adjacent cells, confining the damage to the one failed cell, which can easily be replaced. Pouch cells like to be 'squeezed' together, to avoid delamination between electrodes. That maintains the lowest possible equivalent series resistance of each cell, which combined with the extra heat dissipation efficiency, would allow faster charge rates, and more sustained horsepower.
Looks like a design where a module could be swapped if bad battery found. Then, an opportunity for a company to take the swapped module and replace the bad cell(s) and return the module as serviceable.
I think it may be in your best interest to look a little closer into RC batteries and BMS systems to understand more on pouch cells. These have been around for some time, and there are great resources from those that run them. This is by far one of the best ways to configure these pouch cells and make them "right to fix" without destroying the vehicle, which the battery case is a part of that. I pat Ford on the back for the simple BMS and packaging of these modularly to make replacing simple. Generally its one cell or pouch that is bad in the whole pack. Being able to fix these unlike tesla is a god send.
Antonio do they make that shirt in any size other than a Smedium? Joking aside, I love the value he brings to these battery module teardowns. Keep it up!
Great video guys. One question tho...if you put the unit on a lift, looking from steel base of the vehicle plate up, is there any insulation between the metal base of the vehicle and steel battery compartment ( with the aluminium cooling unit above that)? I can see a potential for a loss of cooling ability when sitting on hot surface (ground) when stationary.
I'm fairly convinced that the foam rubber pads/insulators/isolators between battery pouches have a major role in preventing damage and wear due to vibration. Unlike Teslas or even the Mach-E, the F-150 is expected to be durable off-road. Really, off-road isn't as torturous as rural, rutted dirt or gravel roads. Bouncing over some ruts wouldn't bother a battery pack, but driving weekly or daily down a 10 mile gravel road could cause abrasion between the pouches that will be mitigated by those pads.
That just means these cells are super delicate and the design has no cooling on the wide surface area, the cooling is forced only to the bottom of each cell. It is the overall pack frame that protects the cells, it is rigid so it won't flex. I would bet the piece of rubber is either an insulator or to improve heat transfer between cells. Their cooling strategy does not look that good. Other packs with similar pouch cells use thin cooling pads as dividers between the cells that let fluid flow through them. Such as the ones lg chem made for the chevy volt and bolt. The offroad aspect has nothing to do with the internals of the pack. The only pack for any vehicle that is designed to transfer physical load to the battery cells is tesla's structural pack which uses cylindrical cells.
@@_PatrickO It sounds like you've never held a lithium-ion pouch cell in your hand. The cooling solution is sub-optimal, but the entire pouch is metallic and will transfer heat to/away from the rest of the pack. They are not, however, rigid - which is why we call them a pouch instead of a box or something else. As such, sandwiching them tightly will minimize movement, but not totally restrict abrasion of the foil layer of the pouch when pressed against a neighboring pouch - which would lead to leakage, shorting, and pack failure. We're talking about high-frequency oscillation surface-to-surface friction, not bouncing around within the case.
7:13 In order to have this discussion about heat rejection requirements, you should consider the modes of heat transfer (conduction, convection, and radiance). Your comments seem to imply that aluminum and thermal pastes are an impediment to heat rejection; however, the opposite is actually true. In terms of conducting heat, both aluminum and thermal pastes are highly conductive materials, and they are probably the most conductive materials for the cost and weight. Inside the case, air gaps around the cells allow for heat transfer through convection. Now, it's true that air convection isn't the most effective at transferring heat, but because the entire case is highly conductive aluminum with a lot of surface area, the heat rejection qualities of this configuration is probably much better than you seem to be implying. Either way, it is certainly sufficient for the 1 C to 1.5 C rated cells that Ford selected for this application.
I'm in my third year of college on track to get my bachelors in Electrical Electronics Engineering Technology, you guys need an intern for over the summer? I would love to learn from you guys lol.
I really appreciate Ford making these battery modules serviceable. I absolutely hate non-serviceable large assemblies. I understand how they make manufacturing easier, but putting everything together with adhesives makes long term repair and maintenance much harder with attendant long term environmental impacts. It looks like these assemblies are likely to also be easier to break down for recycling at EOL. Also, I'm wondering about the internal resistance of pouch vs. cylindrical battery cells? Does either format have an advantage? DeWalt's work on their power tool batteries suggests that their pouches have less internal resistance than their cylindrical cells. This also implies lower heat loads to be dissipated and better round trip efficiency. Does anyone know?
The F150 lighting is sitting on the lots here in Eastern CT. They are so expensive and a price increase does not make sense when they have so many other models they Are not producing like the hybrid Maverick. Only 35% of orders are being considered.
Good day. I encountered a similar problem with the second and fifth modules on a 2022 Ford F150 Lightning. Tell me how I can contact you and discuss a few issues?
Good to know they made it repairable for those inevitable recalls. I'm sure my local dealership will enjoy doing the recall work then telling owners they have to pay for a whole new battery pack.
"For manufacturing variation" No those cooling plate holes allow for the plate to expand with heat and contract while cooling. The cooling and heating plate will change size greatly since aluminum changes a lot compared to the battery pack. Not for ease of assembly.
Hi thanks for your videos there very informative, I noted in this video you said battery's would have better thermal management if immersed in the cooling liquid ! would it be better then to use like transformer oil as the thermal management medium instead of glycol. or is this just not possible? I mean it works for HV transformers and there are non toxic transformer oils available now ! This way the battery's could be immersed in the cooling medium.
It is interesting that the Mach E and the Lightning are so different. I would have expected at least a little bit of commonality. Hopefully when other vehicles come out on these same platforms we will begin to see commonality... especially if they want to maintain serviceability as a feature. That should also help costs/prices in the long term. Although this early in the game it is also likely we will see many iterations of changes as Ford and others attempt to discover their long term EV strategies. GM claims they have their strategy nailed down with Ultium... Im personally not convinced of the finality of that, but it will be interesting to see how it develops.
Ultium is a joke vaporware. It's just more stalling by legacy automakers to try and keep customers away from Tesla. Another version of "We'll have 43 different electric models by 2022" yet they still only offer one, maybe. GM(nor any other legacy OEM) has no plans or supply for volume production. They're just waiting for Tesla to go bankrupt so they can say "Look! We told you electric cars wouldn't work!" Except Tesla will absolutely not fail and will continue to take over the market.
@@koreysutter6461 The battery manufacturer doesnt lead the design, the OEM does. You can have a dozen different battery manufacturers and still have commonality between the housings and motors etc.
One would wonder if Ford might release a truly modular pack that could be mated to the Eluminator. Built in BMS, or, also a ESC/EMS with built-in BMS. I’d buy it, or a couple. They are already in a partnership with AEM, who seem to be doing great things. A plug and play system that could be used to convert ICE vehicles, would sell, perhaps TOO much. But, I’d also wonder if there would be cost savings in serviceability, and that plus, kit sales could offset the additional part # and systems cost. Be cost
Ford is only offering the Mach E GT front drive unit as a "crate motor" under the "Eluminator" name to get good publicity - they clearly have no interest in selling and supporting it. They certainly wouldn't have any interest in designing and building new EV components just for the aftermarket... especially since they buy the modules from outside suppliers.
Problem with trying to service this battery after say 8 years. Are these pouch cells still being made? The replacement cells would have to be stored with a floating charger to keep them from self discharging to dead. Since cells in a pack have to be a similar capacity to properly balance a pack, with cell degradation, how would a new cell be matched?
If you have a faulty module, all you need to do is relace it with a module with equvalent or slightly higher capacity to maintain the overall battery pack's capacity. You could even waste money on a brand new module, but that would be of no benefit. The BMS (battery management system - all evs have one) will ensure that no module is overcharged. On discharge, the bms will stop the car when the weakest module reaches its minimum voltage. Older vehicles can have weak modules replaced with a module of similar capacity to the remaining modules. Ev conversion shops are matching used modules as part of their conversion process.
People suggesting it's good that the battery pack is serviceable. That sort of suggests that Ford is not too confident in the integrity/longevity of the cells or think the design or electronics are going to hold up>
Great review! I like this detailed nerd tech stuff. Even we have one US (Panasonic) and one chinese (LFP) Model 3, I don't like the 4680-glueed-plastic-brick without serviceability in 10 yrs. or so. The modular Volkswagen/Ford/... aproach I like much more and willing to pay 500-1000 bucks more for that. It pays off on the long run, as the value of the car stays higher.
Agreed! Many a 20+ year old F150 is still on the road every day. A ten year old EV with a dead monolithic battery pack is mostly likely going to end up being scrapped out as uneconomical to repair.
@John Horner so you don't think with all these battery manufacturers making millions of batteries aren't going to bring the price down for packs, so say you bought a f150 3.5 just finished paying for it and the engine went you will just scrap it and buy a new one??
The battery design approach from Ford vs Tesla is interestingly different. Tesla approach to reduce cost and make EV really availlable to customer as fast as possible is reducing manufacturing cost for exemple with nre structural and non repairable battery while Ford choose to make these upgradable and repairable.
Tesla has also designed the pack for high reliability. When Ford has so many fittings, connections, and fasteners, you decrease reliability. The one problem that Tesla discovered early on is modules can't be swapped out. The pack must have matched modules - ones that age together. When you swap out a module with a new one (other than in production), the pack will have a very shortened life as the modules will no longer charge and discharge evenly (which is very critical). Even on old Teslas with modules, Tesla replaces the entire pack if a module fails. I think Ford, GM and others have yet to discover this problem as it only shows up in packs that have aged a bit. Sadly, all that design for "repairability" is a total waste of engineering, cost, and hurts reliability.
Tesla designed the 4680 pack for *vehicle* efficiency. Many of the main points of failure (electronics) are in the "penthouse", separate from the "structural" element and can be repaired. The cells (Subject to confirmation by Munro,) seem to be "fused" to remove a faulty individual from the circuit. As someone mentioned elsewhere, you have to gauge the cost of pack replacement against the time of removal, strip down, diagnosis and repair. From the recent report (Morgan Stanley?) There's a path for the 4680 pack to reduce from $10-12k down to $5-6k by the time warranties expire. A 2 hour(?) Swap will be more cost-effective to the customer than the strip/ diagnose/ repair/ reassemble route (which would probably involve module replacement anyway?)
@@tesla_tap exact, matching perfectly involve precise algorithm to match Internal resistance and capacity model as well as perfect matching over the aging. I've been repairing, investigating and designing lithium battery for years and matching and make sure the BTM is also working perfect to make all cells to age equally is very difficult. Even on my Volt after 8 years i can see cells internal resistance that are higher that depend the location where they are in the battery. I very like the Tesla approach. Like you said having modules replaced on a battery involve having the same battery SOH, not only soc and capacity and i think not all garage are capable storing enough and even finding modules that have these same caracteristics..
@@tesla_tap untrue. If you have a faulty module, all you need to do is relace it with a module with equvalent or slightly higher capacity to maintain the overall battery pack's capacity. You could even waste money on a brand new module, but that would be of no benefit. The BMS (battery management system - all evs have one) will ensure that no module is overcharged. On discharge, the bms will stop the car when the weakest module reaches its minimum voltage. Older vehicles can have weak modules replaced with a module of similar capacity to the remaining modules. Ev conversion shops are matching used modules as part of their conversion process.
@@nordic5490 Sorry, I disagree. The BMS has no way to deal with mismatched modules, new or old. When mismatched, some modules will charge and discharge at a different rate, causing modules to die an early death. The BMS may detect the issue, but it can't fix it.
"When you're not performing your duties do they keep you in a little box? Cells. Interlinked." "Why don't you say that three times? Within cells interlinked. Within cells interlinked. Within cells interlinked." -Base Line Test Blade Runner 2049
“Ford hiked the starting price of the F-150 Lighting electric pickup for at least the third time this year. It's now up 40% since the vehicle launched” - CNBC 12/16/22
Well, that may not entirely be driven by costs. When demand exceeds supply, a seller is leaving money on that when he distributes his product by "allocation" rather than highest bidder.
I want to congratulate and thank Corey for having the vision to start this channel. Every person on the Monroe team deserves this recognition and they have you to thank for it.
💯
F-150 Lightning owner here, SR XLT 312A. Really enjoying the series, thanks for such in-depth EV content!!
Thanks for watching!
Question for you if you live in a colder climate; how does your truck pre-heat the battery after it's been sitting overnight in the freezing cold? Some guy made a comment that his neighbor's Lightning turned into a brick in the freeze we just had.
@@FelixTheCat69 You keep it plugged into the charger and the battery heaters heat up the battery when you precondition prior to scheduled departure or when you remote start, just have to give it time to warm up before hammering it. Can’t speak for what the other person’s neighbor did.
@@FelixTheCat69 To expand on what Sean said, a small emersion heater, not unlike one in your electric water heater at home, heats coolant that is circulated through the coolant plates under the cells. Electric coolant pumps circulate the coolant. Keeping it plugged in should work, especially with preheating.
Man I’m chomping at the bits here! I am a Production Supervisor for SKBA, the US based headquarters here in Ga. The NDA in our contracts prevent us from saying anything at all about what we build, but some of the comments are spot on while others are way off base (ahem…heat transfer). Truly enjoyed this video guys, it was intriguing seeing it from the outside in. Keep up the great work.
Thanks
5k miles in I had my SR XLT Max Trailor Tow Package with 9.4kwh kit had a bettery module go bad and show low voltage, they had to replace it. It was done in about 1 1/2 months, the battery assembly itself came relatively quickly, 5 days. the main problem was getting a new lift JUST for the truck to be worked on.
Runs like a champ still, loving it.
We have ten lightning pro’s deployed for work and they are absolutely outstanding. Thanks Munroe
Wow you were actually able to get a pro model. Who’s you have to do a “favor” for?
@@jm100368 nobody but I have bought a lot of trucks over time
Yea there is a list with priority for fleet,dealers etc then street people. The dealers will not tell you that
Ten? So you dropped near a million dollars? That's insane (one of these trucks costs around 100k where I live).
What application are they being used for?
Thank you for these videos. I help mentor a high-school robotics team (frc) and I very often find great little lessons for our students (for example the ~90 seconds on GD&T in this video at about 4:05 or so).
That is awesome!
Munro live is an edutainment/infotainment channel showing application of the abstract and all of it's members get a chance to explain stuff it is one of the few channels which can make people watch long videos with enthusiasm and is it's strength.
20:45 - Mach-e has no SK Innovation cells. These are pouch cells from LG Energy (LGX E71a). Their chemistry is likely NMC-721.
The cells from F-150 Lightning are supplied by SK Innovation (as you said), likely with NMC 9 0.5 0.5 chemistry. So considerably more Nickel, less manganese and less cobalt.
The Mach-e is more similar to the Chevrolet Bolt because both packs are essentially engineered by LG Energy Solution (or LGChem as they were called earlier).
Great comment! 👏👏
19:45 - what are the electrical plug for the connectors on the cast aluminum ends of the LG MachE modules, so I can buy a pigtail and connect a module to a balancer???
@@DavidHalko Don't know. If you have a careful look at the connector you should be able to read the connector manufacturer's name and then continue your search from there. Also many connectors have a typical pin distance of pins, i.e. the uniform distance between pins measured from center to center. Some common header pitches are:
5.08 mm (0.200 in)
3.96 mm (0.156 in)
2.54 mm (0.100 in) with 0.64 mm (0.025 in) square pins or precision machined 0.50 mm (0.020 in) round pins
2.00 mm (0.079 in) with 0.50 mm (0.020 in) square pins
1.27 mm (0.050 in)
1.00 mm (0.0394 in)
This pitch together with the layout of the pins (row count and column count) gives a good idea, what to search for.
From there you can then get universal connector pigtails to interface with the connector. For stationary indoor use this will suffice. Once you need all the automotive characteristics like protection against dust, moisture, vibration and so on, you will need a proper locking connector with proper sealing however.
Hi@@koeniglicher -
I own 4 of the 8s4p batteries, from a MachE, I started backward engineering the pin outs, I now know enough pins to make it useful, but not enough to figure out what the manufacturer of the connector is.
I tried to go to ford, to buy some cabling, but they wanted a VIN, which I do not have.
I just need a stationary application.
I used breadboard to header pin wire extenders to connect to the 2x sockets on each battery, but those wires are very thin. I may be stuck with them. 👎
Maybe I can take some more photos, zoom in more, and take your suggestion…
@@DavidHalko Google and some of the other major search companies offer a search function that can identify what is in the camera view, or possibly what is in a picture. I haven't really used this feature myself, so I can't speak to how good it is, especially with a more esoteric part, but I know this search capability exists.
If you're still having a hard time figuring it out, you could always use a micrometer or caliper to try and capture both the size of the pin, and also the pin spacing. If you do decide to try this, be very careful to not accidentally short two live conductors. If they're shorted you could possibly kill the caliper, any circuitry inside the cell/pack, or anything else that might become energized by the voltage, up to and including you. One other thing to keep in mind, is that how you use the Calipers and/or micrometer will absolutely influence the readings you get. Trying to measure the exact dimensions of the pins themselves, along with the pitch of the conductors in the receptacle is something that would need to be performed very carefully, and likely repeated more than a couple times so that you can be as sure as possible what the exact dimensions are for your new plug.
Just one of the larger modules has the same capacity as the entire (useable) battery in my gen 1 BMW i3 (~16 kWh). Whilst cell chemistry and energy density has improved, it is the better packing ratio that is really driving that change!
expensive to built this ford lighting battery back as what I understand. Munro channel has educated my understanding of these batteries how they are put together.
Masterful explanations and just the right level of detail. Excellent 'off the cuff' presentation skills and give high confidence of their background/knowledge.
Thanks for sharing this. I recently accepted work as a battery manufacturing engineer working on pack assembly for Ford so you speaking of the next iteration of the cooling system is like you speaking directly to me haha. Thanks for sharing.
Wish you much success in the next step of your career!👍😊
Thank you Jordan and Antonio. Excellent presentation.
Thanks Fred
I would like to hear your thoughts on recycle-ability of the pack and probably of 2nd life use cases. Excellent tear down and always enjoy the videos.
Same. Wondering if Ford will reuse modules in a home power wall type product?
Finally some serviceability. I never would have guessed that Ford would be the one to bring it, but yet I'm very happy to see someone is taking it into consideration.
This design is no more or less serviceable than nearly every other current EV battery design, other than Tesla's unfixable stuff.
I would guess serviceability is less about future upgrades; this is most certainly about large corporations managing their risk as they enter new technology spaces.
Great work guys. Your channel is very unique and informative 👍
Thanks a ton!
Thanks for watching!
This is encouraging. I wonder if Munro can give viewers a guess as to when we might start to see aftermarket replacements for batteries and related tech. It makes more sense for a 3rd party to enter that market once serviceability is really feasible. With batteries it makes sense to replace degraded units, but as the tech improves (which is happening fast) it would also make sense to replace them with lighter ones or higher capacities, or longer lasting ones.
My Leaf is running at about 90% range after 7 years so replacement for me doesn't make sense yet, and it might not in future if Nissan still wants to charge as much for a replacement battery as they want today, but perhaps a 3rd party would change that (for all auto makers). Competition is good.
Nice video. For those who bought and admire with this truck - your battery problems will start on the 4th year of use or earlier. Soft packs+prismatic shape = worst for customer, but cheapest for manufacturer. Plus no adequate cooling will cause cells puffing = fast degradation.
Those slots in the aluminum plate also allow the plate to expand and contract, changing in length, without stressing the fastening areas. That's probably intentional to keep the aluminum flat instead of bulging up and down.
Great observation! 👏👏
Starting to remind me of furniture making by designing in wood expansion and contraction among the parts so the unit doesn't pull itself apart. Such an old principle being used now in this newer technology. Also happy to see the packs are serviceable. There were those who thought the Tesla solution was just fine but it seemed contrary to the direction one would like to go in with permanent fixing and very cumbersome removal. It too reminded me how in woodworking one doesn't want to design anything that makes it impossible for the next person to fix or remove etc. Not a principle always shared among those making furniture or vehicles for that matter. But still best practice.
Tesla's approach has a lot of advantages. Mainly the pack can be structural, which saves tons of cost and weight. And new Tesla batteries are so reliable and long lasting that they are very unlikely to need service. I think Tesla should include battery replacement in it's insurance product, maybe even without any added cost. With such rare replacement the cost would be negligible, but it would reassure customers.
@@andrasbiro3007 The advantages are all for the manufacturer not the end user. Even minor damage to a Tesla battery pack from debris on a highway striking the pack become a $24,000 repair bill since the pack is not repairable.
@@andrasbiro3007 -- When you claim a battery pack is "structural," you are also saying the the pack will be twisted about as you drive. Can you say, "Accident Waiting to Happen?"
Seriously, I suspect that FMC is going to settle on the hybrid model for its EVs. The battery pack will be smaller and wouldn't be expected to be a part of the frame. Making it "repairable" is nice and, I suspect this will become the new standard. I would say it's even money whether Elon has some folks working on "repairable" packs.
@@heathwirt8919 It does matter for the end user, what you're going to get is a heavier truck, less efficient and higher cost.
@@heathwirt8919 You keep ignoring the value of the failed battery with that bogus $24k figure. Ever hear of a "core credit"? even a cheap water pump has a core value which reduces the purchase cost. The "core credit" for a giant expensive battery would likely be > 2/3 of the cost of a new one.
In LG Chem modules (such as the Mach E and Bolt, and the Chrysler Pacifica Hybrid), the segmented housing allows a heat transfer plate to be sandwiched between each pair of cells, extending through the bottom of the module and bending 90 degrees to form a surface which is pressed against the thermal management plate (through paste or a suitable sheet material). This SKI design doesn't have that feature, with a complete bottom side to the module box, a feature shared with many other modules include all of the VDA 355 format variants, and apparently with no heat transfer plates. Yes, that does seem like it will make a significant difference in heat transfer ability.
Just to sum up and repeat the battery configuration:
*Extended Range battery pack:* (143.47 kWh gross/131 kWh net capacity) total is 96s 5p of SK Innovation pouch cells (480 cells in total) with 82 Ah each.
Smaller module: 11.95 kWh gross capacity = 40 cells wired in 8s5p. 1 unit of this module.
Larger modules: 16.44 kwh gross capacity = 55 cells wired in 11s5p. 8 units of this module in 2 layers.
*Standard Range battery pack:* (107.55 kWh gross/98 kWh net capacity) (my estimate based on your information)
Likely: Smaller module: 11.95 kWh gross capacity = 40 cells wired as 10s4p of these cells. 9 units of this module. Makes a total of 90s 4p (360 cells).
Ford said earlier, it would be NMC-9 0.5 0.5 (Hi-Nickel) cells.
So the standard range pack still has nine modules in two layers? That may be, but it would be an unnecessarily expensive way to build it. A more rational design would have the minimum number of modules possible, to reduce both structure and cooling complexity. The Mach E has fewer modules in the standard version than the extended version, with only one layer in the standard version.
@@brianb-p6586 I don't know for sure. This is just my best guess. We will know it, once anyone has disassembled a standard range battery pack of an F-150 Lightning and shared his findings. Or you can make a best guess yourself and reply how they fit e.g. 364 cells (91s4p) into 7 modules (about 52 cells each). Then they would make 7s modules a 13s4p. Still, it looks like you cannot get 7 modules into one layer of this pack. So some of the modules will need to be stacked on top anyways.
@@koeniglicher Yes, it does look like a second layer is necessary, but it could be shorter and simpler.
Thanks for loads of useful info ,some good tactics used by Ford ,it looks like everything is very serviceable which is great ,for when the vehicle reaches end of life . was reading a post in another youtube video , where a guy described the job of replacing a module , what made it super difficult and time consuming was the heat transfer plate and the heat conducting paste ,rather than a direct swap module for module ,in a quick and easy job , it takes a significant ammount of time to mess around with the paste , this is superbad for the dealer service centre costs and customer cost. It also looks like there is alot more room in the battery housing pack for more battery capacity in future lightning models.
I suspect that the intercell "foam" pad is also for thermal control. Making sure all your cells are at the same temperature is really important for even aging, so that foam pad which looks like it may have some low thermal impedance loading material (it looks to be fairly heavy which is normally an indicator of this)acts to allow heat to move laterally through the cell stack.
Good observation, I was thinking the same thing.
The battery management system covers such problems. On the whole, it's generally necessary to cool the entire battery. The foam just keeps things in place.
Very light weight. It is used for vibration management and fixing the cell into place.
Nice video and presentation.
I guess I missed a critical description of the thermal path from - where on cell porch - through at the coolant plate.
Thank you for information. Thanks all your team and wish good luck and happiness . . .
Cooling is only really relevant in high-load situations, fast-charging in particular. Under driving use, the actual C-rating on the cell is completely trivial, leading to negligible heating. TBH, _heating_ the pack is the issue in colder climates
I like how you guys show the evolution from older models ot the newer.
We have 4 Lightening pros and 5 2022 Range Rovers, Everyone wants to use the lightening pro! Love the break down and explanation
For cooling, be aware of fluid dynamics boundary layer effects. Also limitation of how much "sensible" heat a static fluid can absorb.
Re your safety culture, once cell junctions removed, potential for high voltage effectively zero. It’d be wise to remove warnings to prevent "warning fatigue". It might be a cell-short fire danger, not a high voltage danger.
You guys get to do some fun stuff! Thanks for sharing. This helps to understand what is going on with the different manufacturers batteries. Very interesting stuff.
Fantastic observations Jordan , and a very good presentation, I also enjoyed the comparisons with the bolt and Mach-e
Glad you liked it!
I gawd I love tearing these packs down. They’re so cool to see and make me more comfortable buying one maybe one day. Maybe one day all these little parts will be available in auto parts stores making DIY an option for electric repair geeks.
I highly doubt they will want anyone monkeying with these battery packs for liability reasons
I do like a serviceable pack, with modules one could re-use in other projects. Like the original tesla modules. These could become quite popular for that. The modern monolithic foam-gooped fasternless packs are no use at all for that sort of thing.
Thank God that Ford chose to make their battery packs serviceable. Unlike the unrepairable Tesla 4680 piece of crap!
This is a common misconception. The 4680 is designed to be recycled. The whole pack, foam and all, will get turned into a slurry and its components separated out into raw materials. Check out Redwood materials, they just got a $2B loan from the US govt to expand their planned battery materials campus in Nevada. Facilities and ones like it will be instrumental to the battery supply chain in the future.
@@aybase Recycling does little good for the vehicle owner stuck with a $20,000 battery replacement bill! It also doesn't allow for reuse of the batteries. This is pure greed to get more money out of customers!
@@DavidJohnson-tv2nn Nope. It tells me Tesla has confidence in its product and that it will not need replacement.
Having modular design like this tells me that they know the battery tech will fail and are anticipating making many replacements.
Also, the Tesla structural battery solution increases efficiency for both manufacturing and performance.
@@themonsterunderyourbed9408 And I'm sure you know better. There isn't a product ever designed that doesn't need repairs. You make a bold claim with no evidence to support it. The GM design recognizes reality and makes it easier for the customer. The Tesla design screams "F" the customer! Let them buy a new car from us! Just like the evil Apple corporation and their anti-consumer attitude.
@19:20 the Mach E isn't just a model year different, it is from a different supplier, despite the claim @20:45 that the Mach E has "the same SK Innovations cell". That's why it is constructed differently. Of course SKI and LG Chem modules vary in their details.
The Bolt and Mach E modules are alike because they are two instances of the same LG Chem product line, unlike the SKI modules in the Lightning.
Great post-editing, drop-in clips, etc. That's a lot of work and rarely gets recognized
the lightening and mach e battery differences ,shows ford still need to make improvements on there battery pack constructions, currently as you demonstrated non commonality between the two, which has added parts & costs/time to the production of the battery packs, ford should have opted for one or the other and then reduced the parts, thanks Jordan & Antoinio for the video :) :)
Being that one is made in Mexico and the other in Michigan the different designs probably affect production ver little if at all.
Those modules are designed and made by two different companies 🤦♂️
I expect every EV maker will continue evolving/improving battery pack designs with each new generation of vehicles. Tesla has and does build multiple different kinds of battery packs with different base cell sizes and different chemistries (Tesla China is reported making many LiPO based vehicles). The materials and industry are not mature enough for there to be a permanent "right way" declared yet.
I'd say the reason there is only one alignment hole in the cooling pack is because aluminium expands and contracts with heat.
If there are two fixed points the pan will bow, either away from the pack limiting cooling or into the pack, stressing the batteries.
Just got my Lightning and no wonder it can't charge as fast as other design. Instead of those black rubber they should have put in cooling plate between the cells. This would allow them to have better control on thermal.
Jordan remembers sticky sheets as cell phone holders when he was a kid. When I was a kid, phones had rotary dials and were wired to the wall.
Photos or it didnt happen! (kidding.....)
@@wilber8260 We didn't have digital cameras back then...
@@brianb-p6586 Yeah, you took your roll of camera film to the drug store and got your pictures on paper back three days later. Back then a cordless phone was one that was disconnected and not working.
@@brianb-p6586 better. polaroid
One important point is that the pouch cells (remember: they need to be in compression) will breathe, that is , change their thickness, with every charge-discharge-cycle. The actual hard electrode layers change their thickness as the Lithium Ions are moved in and out.
And of course the bags will swell up with gas as the cells age. And there's temperature changes.
So that's why the foam is a really clever solution.
The foam is the normal solution - pouch cell stacks always have foam separators in them.
Great video, very interesting and informative. The "foam" strips are in-between every other cell, instead of every cell. That is the same configuration as aluminum cooling plates in the Bolt EV and the same as the liquid cooling plates in the Volt EREV [PHEV]. This provides cooling on one side of every cell. So, I wonder if the "foam" material is thermally conductive? If so, that would make more sense than just cooling the bottom edge where the thermal putty is.
The LG modules have the foam layers every second cell interface, too; they are not for heat transfer in either the LG design or the SKI design.
In the LG stack, foam sheets and aluminum heat transfer plates alternate. Where the LG stack has the aluminum plates the SKI stack doesn't have anything - the cells are in direct contact.
Would enjoy a video about 3D printing and it’s application in the auto industry. With 3D printing the coolant system could be integrated directly into the battery, instead of a separate component. Thanks. Excellent videos.
Thank you!
The enclosure is leaky enough that the rubber probably isn't for venting. The rubber has two functions. The first function is to provide electrical isolation to the cut edge of the cell pouch. If the cut edge of the cell pouch makes contact with aluminum module enclosure (chassis ground) you could have a loss of isolation or a reduction in isolation. The second is to provide clearance to edge of the cell. The edge at that location of the cell dips below the bottom surface and if clearance wasn't provided you would have cell pouch failure due to the stress applied at the corner.
I like how carefully he tried to word things to mean that the cell would turn into a bomb without a vent without saying the word bomb… 😂😂😂
Tongue tripping to avoid saying " Explode" 😂
Munroes pension is with Ford….😂
@@shazam6274 Always liked the term "non-passive failure".
@@patrickkenny2077 Physical release of chemical energy??
11:10 In Germany we call this "Wortakrobatik" literally translates to "word acrobatics". Future terrorists will tell the police, that they placed a "compressed element getting expanded from within" - not a "bomb" after the "blow off event" or "thermal event" or "outgasing event". SCNR. 😉
Great presentation! Thank you both 👏👏👏
Another great video. Thank you.
Our pleasure!
Those modules would be great for people doing EV conversions!
Yes, just like almost every other pouch cell module, but particularly easy because the BMS is external to the module so an alternate BMS could be used instead of trying to talk to proprietary Ford systems. Unfortunately the capacity is so high that they won't be useful unless the conversion needs either low voltage or high total pack capacity.
Or using the modules for energy storage at home or a shed….
Great work as ever Munro Team! That's a pretty horrible cooling path. Is there no interstitial conductive plate between the cells to take the thermal flux from the cell face to the end of the cell at the base? Poor. The foam strips are to manage expansion while keeping an even pressure on the cell. Pouch cells require a degree of preload to work best.
As a retired consulting mechanical and electrical engineer, it looks like the cooling plate is in the wrong location. If I'm seeing this correctly, the plate is at the bottom of the battery pack. So the bottom of the pack stays cool, but the heat rises to the top of the pack, so there is a major temperature differential within the pack. My understanding is that Tesla (and perhaps others) circulates a fluid throughout the battery pack in such manner as to introduce cooling (when required) along the sides of the batteries. In designing building cooling systems, we never introduced cooling air at the floor of the building because it just wouldn't work.
Heat "rises" in air, not in fixed structures, like a sealed battery pack. The cells themselves have a semi-liquid electrolyte dispersed withing the plates, but it would an extremely minimal ability to convect.
Conduction doesn't care about up or down. You're thinking convection.
@@wizzyno1566 " ...heat rises to the top of the pack" What is that supposed to mean? Heat does not "conduct" up.
Absolutely, having the cooling plate at the bottom of the pack limits its overall effectiveness, but with modern cells, the IR is so low and the C-rate so low during driving, heat is hardly an issue any more. The pack needing to be _heated_ in colder climates is really the issue.
Yet you were consulting engineer! There is huge amount of science & practice behind battery cooling. Solutions often not what pub crowd expected. Even Sandy got this wrong one time.
Please turn in your engineering credentials if you think that conduction is dependent on gravity.
Good video. I appreciate that Ford, GM, and some others are making the effort to make batteries serviceable. This helps to ensure that these vehicles can have long lives, not cut short by an "Uneconomical to Repair" future. I remember claims that failed batteries would surely send the Prius to an early grave. all it takes is Googling "Rebuilt Prius Battery" to prove that wrong.
Note: The Chevrolet Volt was the first with the longitudinal bolt design. That battery sandwiched cooling plates between every few cells. Expensive, yes, but those batteries survive quite well in the challenging daily 100-0% life of a PHEV.
Yes but your comparing an old prius battery that cost 20k for 8kwh pack today you can get 80kwh pack for 10k-15k prices are coming down 10 more years I bet there be in the 5000 range
@@lesstevens2370 Sorry for late reply. I would encourage you to check Tesla prices for out of warranty 2012 replacement batteries. It's near twice what you say. Tesla will brick or restrict your car if they find that you have repaired or replaced the battery yourself. Meanwhile private companies are popping up that can service batteries. Weber University trains and ASE certifies mechanics to service EVs and their batteries.
@Miata822 well yeah 11 year old 18650 battery tech which are being discontinued and replaced with either the 2780 or the 4680 versions that's why it cost more and the 4680 is the cheapest option for batteries since you don't need thousands of them anymore unlike those old 18650 batteries
@@lesstevens2370 Not getting drawn into a debate. You don't seem familiar with the subject.
Jordan is very articulate, making things very understandable. Good job!
Antonio, with the word "Hold", the "L" is pronounced. So it's not "Hoo-D", it's "Hole-D".
Dang, my Appalachian accent showin through.
Bravo........the cooling plate.........do they use for heating to.........cold weather ....cheers
excellent work
Interesting take on consolidating the cooling plate. Considering serviceability and costs over time, I would think it's better to have the more modular cooling plates over a single larger brazed assembly. Can't imagine an ID4 having a cooling plate issue after a fender bender and having to replace the entire thing. Brazing larger assemblies isn't a capability many have so to support lower costing of that part, you need to be able to multi source.
Regarding the chemistry: These cells are >Ni90 as confirmed by SK and Ford.
I sure would like to see you guys wear safety glasses!
Rather than foam strips, I would rather see aluminum plates used as partitions between each cell. Apply a little thermal compound, and those plates can serve as heat sinks, efficiently transferring heat from the flat surfaces of the cells, to the outside of the case. Those aluminum plates would have flanges, like I-beams, so that screws can be used between their edges and the top and bottom plates of the battery modules. That would make the flat coolant plates much more effective at getting the heat from the cells, to the coolant. The biggest thing, is that it would put significant thermal mass between a failed cell and adjacent cells, confining the damage to the one failed cell, which can easily be replaced. Pouch cells like to be 'squeezed' together, to avoid delamination between electrodes. That maintains the lowest possible equivalent series resistance of each cell, which combined with the extra heat dissipation efficiency, would allow faster charge rates, and more sustained horsepower.
Looks like a design where a module could be swapped if bad battery found. Then, an opportunity for a company to take the swapped module and replace the bad cell(s) and return the module as serviceable.
I think it may be in your best interest to look a little closer into RC batteries and BMS systems to understand more on pouch cells. These have been around for some time, and there are great resources from those that run them. This is by far one of the best ways to configure these pouch cells and make them "right to fix" without destroying the vehicle, which the battery case is a part of that. I pat Ford on the back for the simple BMS and packaging of these modularly to make replacing simple. Generally its one cell or pouch that is bad in the whole pack. Being able to fix these unlike tesla is a god send.
Antonio do they make that shirt in any size other than a Smedium? Joking aside, I love the value he brings to these battery module teardowns. Keep it up!
Am bear, not Antonio.
Great review!!!
Good job guys!
Thanks E
Great video guys. One question tho...if you put the unit on a lift, looking from steel base of the vehicle plate up, is there any insulation between the metal base of the vehicle and steel battery compartment ( with the aluminium cooling unit above that)? I can see a potential for a loss of cooling ability when sitting on hot surface (ground) when stationary.
so they traded ultrasonics 4 a laser! cool video, 4 such a hot subject!! yup! they'll probably be a huge jump in re-designs in 23'. good luck !
Well done
Mite wanna use an impact socket lol thought you guys are professional
Great video! Weird cooling system.
Thank you!
Welcome
I'm fairly convinced that the foam rubber pads/insulators/isolators between battery pouches have a major role in preventing damage and wear due to vibration. Unlike Teslas or even the Mach-E, the F-150 is expected to be durable off-road. Really, off-road isn't as torturous as rural, rutted dirt or gravel roads. Bouncing over some ruts wouldn't bother a battery pack, but driving weekly or daily down a 10 mile gravel road could cause abrasion between the pouches that will be mitigated by those pads.
That just means these cells are super delicate and the design has no cooling on the wide surface area, the cooling is forced only to the bottom of each cell. It is the overall pack frame that protects the cells, it is rigid so it won't flex. I would bet the piece of rubber is either an insulator or to improve heat transfer between cells. Their cooling strategy does not look that good. Other packs with similar pouch cells use thin cooling pads as dividers between the cells that let fluid flow through them. Such as the ones lg chem made for the chevy volt and bolt.
The offroad aspect has nothing to do with the internals of the pack. The only pack for any vehicle that is designed to transfer physical load to the battery cells is tesla's structural pack which uses cylindrical cells.
@@_PatrickO Slow charging Bolt might not be such a great example.
What is E-GMP (Genesis/Kia/Hyundai) doing to get such high speeds?
@@_PatrickO It sounds like you've never held a lithium-ion pouch cell in your hand. The cooling solution is sub-optimal, but the entire pouch is metallic and will transfer heat to/away from the rest of the pack. They are not, however, rigid - which is why we call them a pouch instead of a box or something else. As such, sandwiching them tightly will minimize movement, but not totally restrict abrasion of the foil layer of the pouch when pressed against a neighboring pouch - which would lead to leakage, shorting, and pack failure. We're talking about high-frequency oscillation surface-to-surface friction, not bouncing around within the case.
@@rebturtle the rubber is likely there for expansion and contraction. It may conduct heat or it may be an insulator, cannot tell.
black foam inserts could be a thermally conductive graphite foam, if such exists. graphite films used in smartphones and laptops for a long time
7:13 In order to have this discussion about heat rejection requirements, you should consider the modes of heat transfer (conduction, convection, and radiance). Your comments seem to imply that aluminum and thermal pastes are an impediment to heat rejection; however, the opposite is actually true. In terms of conducting heat, both aluminum and thermal pastes are highly conductive materials, and they are probably the most conductive materials for the cost and weight. Inside the case, air gaps around the cells allow for heat transfer through convection. Now, it's true that air convection isn't the most effective at transferring heat, but because the entire case is highly conductive aluminum with a lot of surface area, the heat rejection qualities of this configuration is probably much better than you seem to be implying. Either way, it is certainly sufficient for the 1 C to 1.5 C rated cells that Ford selected for this application.
Is that black foam thermally conductive? It could also help to have good thermal contact and average out temperature across the pack?
It’s full of air, can be compressed to "nothing", so I’d assume not a good thermal conductor.
It is not very thermally conductive, and does not need to be. Heat flow is vertically between the cell and the thermal management plate.
I'm in my third year of college on track to get my bachelors in Electrical Electronics Engineering Technology, you guys need an intern for over the summer? I would love to learn from you guys lol.
I think they take applications/ enquiries on the website?
Is the extended range battery the same battery pack with an extra module? Can we DIY add a module to a normal range battery?
I really appreciate Ford making these battery modules serviceable. I absolutely hate non-serviceable large assemblies. I understand how they make manufacturing easier, but putting everything together with adhesives makes long term repair and maintenance much harder with attendant long term environmental impacts. It looks like these assemblies are likely to also be easier to break down for recycling at EOL. Also, I'm wondering about the internal resistance of pouch vs. cylindrical battery cells? Does either format have an advantage? DeWalt's work on their power tool batteries suggests that their pouches have less internal resistance than their cylindrical cells. This also implies lower heat loads to be dissipated and better round trip efficiency. Does anyone know?
Can i do a anti rust treatment on the frame of a lightning ? For those who live in snow/salt land
The F150 lighting is sitting on the lots here in Eastern CT. They are so expensive and a price increase does not make sense when they have so many other models they Are not producing like the hybrid Maverick. Only 35% of orders are being considered.
Good day. I encountered a similar problem with the second and fifth modules on a 2022 Ford F150 Lightning. Tell me how I can contact you and discuss a few issues?
For cooling, I wonder why they didn't go with something like mineral oil. It's an insulator, so it can be placed in contact with the electrical parts.
Seeing some videos showing Lightnings with failed battery cells and extremely long delays with warranty repairs. Any insights?
Good to know they made it repairable for those inevitable recalls. I'm sure my local dealership will enjoy doing the recall work then telling owners they have to pay for a whole new battery pack.
"For manufacturing variation"
No those cooling plate holes allow for the plate to expand with heat and contract while cooling. The cooling and heating plate will change size greatly since aluminum changes a lot compared to the battery pack. Not for ease of assembly.
Listing thermal paste as a barrier temp passes through is oblivious to t~pasres purpose
Hi thanks for your videos there very informative, I noted in this video you said battery's would have better thermal management if immersed in the cooling liquid ! would it be better then to use like transformer oil as the thermal management medium instead of glycol. or is this just not possible? I mean it works for HV transformers and there are non toxic transformer oils available now ! This way the battery's could be immersed in the cooling medium.
It is interesting that the Mach E and the Lightning are so different. I would have expected at least a little bit of commonality. Hopefully when other vehicles come out on these same platforms we will begin to see commonality... especially if they want to maintain serviceability as a feature. That should also help costs/prices in the long term. Although this early in the game it is also likely we will see many iterations of changes as Ford and others attempt to discover their long term EV strategies. GM claims they have their strategy nailed down with Ultium... Im personally not convinced of the finality of that, but it will be interesting to see how it develops.
Ultium is a joke vaporware. It's just more stalling by legacy automakers to try and keep customers away from Tesla. Another version of "We'll have 43 different electric models by 2022" yet they still only offer one, maybe.
GM(nor any other legacy OEM) has no plans or supply for volume production.
They're just waiting for Tesla to go bankrupt so they can say "Look! We told you electric cars wouldn't work!"
Except Tesla will absolutely not fail and will continue to take over the market.
Different manufacturers sk innovation vs LG
The commonality prevents the ID Buzz to get as big a battery as it really needs.
@@koreysutter6461 The battery manufacturer doesnt lead the design, the OEM does. You can have a dozen different battery manufacturers and still have commonality between the housings and motors etc.
Wow. Looks like cylindrical is the superior form factor.
Really love the battery topic! I would consider myself a batteryhead. Is the same as saying 4G63, 2JZ, LS, 4A-EG, K20 etc...
One would wonder if Ford might release a truly modular pack that could be mated to the Eluminator. Built in BMS, or, also a ESC/EMS with built-in BMS. I’d buy it, or a couple. They are already in a partnership with AEM, who seem to be doing great things. A plug and play system that could be used to convert ICE vehicles, would sell, perhaps TOO much. But, I’d also wonder if there would be cost savings in serviceability, and that plus, kit sales could offset the additional part # and systems cost.
Be cost
Ford is only offering the Mach E GT front drive unit as a "crate motor" under the "Eluminator" name to get good publicity - they clearly have no interest in selling and supporting it. They certainly wouldn't have any interest in designing and building new EV components just for the aftermarket... especially since they buy the modules from outside suppliers.
its always scary to look at so many pouches together like this. We take great caution with little amount of battery on rc toys.
Problem with trying to service this battery after say 8 years.
Are these pouch cells still being made?
The replacement cells would have to be stored with a floating charger to keep them from self discharging to dead.
Since cells in a pack have to be a similar capacity to properly balance a pack, with cell degradation, how would a new cell be matched?
No one is going to replace a single cell in a vehicle pack, and even replacement of a complete module is only likely in a relatively new pack.
If you have a faulty module, all you need to do is relace it with a module with equvalent or slightly higher capacity to maintain the overall battery pack's capacity. You could even waste money on a brand new module, but that would be of no benefit.
The BMS (battery management system - all evs have one) will ensure that no module is overcharged.
On discharge, the bms will stop the car when the weakest module reaches its minimum voltage. Older vehicles can have weak modules replaced with a module of similar capacity to the remaining modules.
Ev conversion shops are matching used modules as part of their conversion process.
9:28 without considering the multiple connector problem why isn’t the cooling plate bottom piece braised directly to the battery module?
How does the BMS measure the temperature of the cells?
People suggesting it's good that the battery pack is serviceable. That sort of suggests that Ford is not too confident in the integrity/longevity of the cells or think the design or electronics are going to hold up>
Ahhh...the argument that one should believe one is perfect when evidence suggests that is impossible.
Great review! I like this detailed nerd tech stuff. Even we have one US (Panasonic) and one chinese (LFP) Model 3, I don't like the 4680-glueed-plastic-brick without serviceability in 10 yrs. or so. The modular Volkswagen/Ford/... aproach I like much more and willing to pay 500-1000 bucks more for that. It pays off on the long run, as the value of the car stays higher.
What about the rather bad thermal management of the cells in this pack? The 4680 pack is much better in that regard.
@@w0ttheh3ll serviceable packs can also have good thermal management.
Agreed! Many a 20+ year old F150 is still on the road every day. A ten year old EV with a dead monolithic battery pack is mostly likely going to end up being scrapped out as uneconomical to repair.
@John Horner so you don't think with all these battery manufacturers making millions of batteries aren't going to bring the price down for packs, so say you bought a f150 3.5 just finished paying for it and the engine went you will just scrap it and buy a new one??
@@johnhorner5711 Tesla battery packs will last longer than 10 years. They'll probably outlast the body of the car.
Pouch cells 👌
The battery design approach from Ford vs Tesla is interestingly different. Tesla approach to reduce cost and make EV really availlable to customer as fast as possible is reducing manufacturing cost for exemple with nre structural and non repairable battery while Ford choose to make these upgradable and repairable.
Tesla has also designed the pack for high reliability. When Ford has so many fittings, connections, and fasteners, you decrease reliability. The one problem that Tesla discovered early on is modules can't be swapped out. The pack must have matched modules - ones that age together. When you swap out a module with a new one (other than in production), the pack will have a very shortened life as the modules will no longer charge and discharge evenly (which is very critical). Even on old Teslas with modules, Tesla replaces the entire pack if a module fails. I think Ford, GM and others have yet to discover this problem as it only shows up in packs that have aged a bit. Sadly, all that design for "repairability" is a total waste of engineering, cost, and hurts reliability.
Tesla designed the 4680 pack for *vehicle* efficiency.
Many of the main points of failure (electronics) are in the "penthouse", separate from the "structural" element and can be repaired.
The cells (Subject to confirmation by Munro,) seem to be "fused" to remove a faulty individual from the circuit.
As someone mentioned elsewhere, you have to gauge the cost of pack replacement against the time of removal, strip down, diagnosis and repair.
From the recent report (Morgan Stanley?) There's a path for the 4680 pack to reduce from $10-12k down to $5-6k by the time warranties expire.
A 2 hour(?) Swap will be more cost-effective to the customer than the strip/ diagnose/ repair/ reassemble route (which would probably involve module replacement anyway?)
@@tesla_tap exact, matching perfectly involve precise algorithm to match Internal resistance and capacity model as well as perfect matching over the aging. I've been repairing, investigating and designing lithium battery for years and matching and make sure the BTM is also working perfect to make all cells to age equally is very difficult. Even on my Volt after 8 years i can see cells internal resistance that are higher that depend the location where they are in the battery. I very like the Tesla approach. Like you said having modules replaced on a battery involve having the same battery SOH, not only soc and capacity and i think not all garage are capable storing enough and even finding modules that have these same caracteristics..
@@tesla_tap untrue. If you have a faulty module, all you need to do is relace it with a module with equvalent or slightly higher capacity to maintain the overall battery pack's capacity. You could even waste money on a brand new module, but that would be of no benefit.
The BMS (battery management system - all evs have one) will ensure that no module is overcharged.
On discharge, the bms will stop the car when the weakest module reaches its minimum voltage. Older vehicles can have weak modules replaced with a module of similar capacity to the remaining modules.
Ev conversion shops are matching used modules as part of their conversion process.
@@nordic5490 Sorry, I disagree. The BMS has no way to deal with mismatched modules, new or old. When mismatched, some modules will charge and discharge at a different rate, causing modules to die an early death. The BMS may detect the issue, but it can't fix it.
I think i learned in high-school, heat rises. So why cool from the bottom?
"When you're not performing your duties do they keep you in a little box? Cells.
Interlinked." "Why don't you say that three times? Within cells interlinked. Within cells interlinked. Within cells interlinked."
-Base Line Test Blade Runner 2049
“Ford hiked the starting price of the F-150 Lighting electric pickup for at least the third time this year. It's now up 40% since the vehicle launched” - CNBC 12/16/22
Well, that may not entirely be driven by costs. When demand exceeds supply, a seller is leaving money on that when he distributes his product by "allocation" rather than highest bidder.
I think they are also preparing for the LFP F-150. Which opens the question can Ford deliver a sub $40k full size work truck?
Where hopes and wishes smack directly into reality. BEV's aren't easy.
Well, Tesla changed prices that many times just last month.
Bidens inflationary programs are taxi ng corporations more that is were price increases are coming from