I kinda like the idea of making him viable in teamfights by making him a sort of support character that can win fights by healing rather than damage. It seems way more interesting than just having map wide unblockables but unfortunately i worry it wont be effective
Personally not a fan of the rework. Striving to give every hero an answer for everything will eventually lead to all hero's being very similar, and I'm not really a fan of that. I liked how, at launch and the 3 years following, every hero played different and were good in certain situations but bad in others. The second you decide "hey, let's give every hero a bash, hyper armor, and dodge attacks" is when everyone starts to play the same. Vanguard should be similar to each other, assassins should be similar to each other, and heavys should be similar to each other, with the only exception being hybrids. If every hero gets the same characteristics of each other in the end, then why even have class-based hero's at this point? Rag on me all you want, but I'm not a fan of where the FH team is taking the direction of the game.
I finnaly found someone else who dosent like the rework. I felt like shoalin was completely fine before the rework. The unblockable they used to have was fine. The only thing they should have changed from before the rework was the dodge attack into stance. That was the only change they should have made. That change was the only reasonable one. And maybe the sweep after the kick should have been changed to like what they have now but not after every stance attack like they have it now. Really in my opinion he was completely fine there was nothing needing a rework about them.
@@yoshigaming9321 A uniquely bad hero isn't a good hero. Blame the devs for being so restrictive and/or unimaginative in how they design offensive moves that they have to use the same 3 types of attacks that they know work, rather than lobbying for culling effective movesets.
I like what they done with shaolin, his rework makes him a better character. But what baffles me is how they did this next to conq rework? How do you do well with one character, but completely meat grind conq? I'm not going to jump to the conclusion of favouritism, but both characters were given the same time frame to be reworked, and possibly the same people. The end result for shaolin makes it seem that they put so much effort into it, but conq is just lazy decisions of add this and that.
I’ve played since the beta of this game on Xbox one. Ubi has favorited knights from the get go. Best armor , best executions , best weapons looks. Best move sets for having fun.
Im not sure the complains against conq are that legit. He is fucking oppresive now but shaolin can destroy conq too, their rework are very strong but in different ways. People just don't like orange because it force them to act and react and it is indeed a bit tedious at time but the time of THE unblockable that come somewhere in a chain is over, we know it now. Conq is not that alien in the game as it is now. Ganking is a miserable mess now but not because of conq, it's like that for a while now and shaolin sweep is as obnoxious in these situations No wonder they plan on remove the ability to gb people from the side because dominion is so biased now, it is almost luck to survive a gank, renvenge can't save you anymore when it is more than 1v2, rarely. Imo conq is not the worst of the roaster right now, far from it
Conp is his own page in this book because first of all he is by far the most hated hero which is why they hat to be carefull of who they listen in case of fedback since many wanna see them in the ground Second his lack of animation ubisoft did stop a long time ago to make new character animation for rework and while this is no issue by other heroes it definitily is on conp since his animation are Limited with not even a single one fitting for a role catcher (which is why he didnt got one) so yeah overall conp was way more harder to rework therefore a fail was inevitable
Shaolin at least had an interesting base moveset and mostly needed tweaks to be good. Conq didn't have much to work with. But yeah I still agree it was rough
shaolins rework is fantastic imo and makes him feel like he has an answer for everything. the light attacks from qi stance do make me feel a little cheap though
the fact that any atack can come after the sweep and so it has no punish is what makes it op imo, even if you dodje correctly (wich is still a 50/50) you get rewarded with no damage
Specials like the sweep where the only answer to them is to dodge should never be feintable, because its either get hit, or get hard guard-broken and combo'd again, probably back into the special again. The skeleton crew left working on FH legit have no idea what balance is, do they.
I understand the game moving towards giving heroes more aggressive purely read base movesets but it’s still quite annoying to fight a shaolin without a dodge attack when he can just get a free light/heavy even after you making the correct read to dodge, basically forcing you to make correct reads twice in a row (or even three because he can still feint the heavy), meanwhile most of other bash heavy heroes can’t do that, however rather than taking away his follow up or allowing others to follow up I think the best solution is to just give everyone a dodge attack
@@leetzabach5793 if you guess correctly that he’s going for a kick/sweep and without a dodge attack you can really only gb punish him, but he can just follow up and you eat a light/heavy, so you have to make a read again that if he will throw out the follow up or not and parries it (mind you the light is 400ms and the heavy is feintable, meaning he might feint it again so you have to make three correct reads in a row if you don’t have a dodge attack in order to punish him)
@@Bigbigger1009 i always just light people when i dodge the sweep. I dont understand his problem. Indeed just blocking, gbing after sweep is a rookie mistake. You dont gb glad after a missed toestab xD.
@@Bigbigger1009 wait so you’re telling me I just shouldn’t be able to punish his mixup when so many of other bashes can be? I’m trying to discuss about how heroes without dodge attack can’t punish the bashes and you’re telling me to just block? That’s not even the point I’m trying to make
4:50 it could be interesting to have a character that incorporated being able to flow after being parried into their move set obviously with some conditions to prevent it from becoming op. Almost like an super enhanced light attack.
I could actually see how that would work character-wise with Shaolin. If he gets parried and the enemy pushes his staff away, he could quickly flip the staff around and hit his opponent on the other side while they are still recovering from the parry. Gameplay wise this would be broken, but it’s a cool idea nonetheless.
@@theitalianmexican1035 I was thinking it might work to replace Nuxia’s traps where she gets a fast flow after getting her heavy parried that cancels her parry stun and allows her to use a quick all guard like Musha or a top light attack that stuffs GBs but is slow. (so she can gamble at getting to continue her offence at the risk of getting GB’d/light parried and the opponent has to make a read of whether to light or to GB) Maybe use the trap catching animation as the all guard follow up. It obviously wouldn’t make her viable on its own but with half decent offence that doesn’t even have to be 50/50s normally be in her favour (maybe let her soft feint into an unblockable version) she could be an interesting character.
@@danieltirico6593 to be able to do a specific move I don’t think so. It’s like a different form of follow up on whiff like Nobushi and Valkyrie both have. Where throwing your bash is made viable but the fact that the opponent has to make a read to punish it. It would obviously have to be limited
I may be a bit biased here but I genuinely hate going against shaolin since the rework. I’ve heard so much praise for him but he’s just become incredibly annoying and I feel like conq has just gotten a disproportionate amount of hate. Again, considering the fact that conq is one of my favorite characters I may be biased .
I like the rework but there is one thing that bothers me. And that's the fact that he gets a follow up attack after a missed bash or sweep ik it can be reacted but in anti-gank its annoying. Another fact is I hope they add the feature that the sweep from shaolin can knock down teammates too soo they have to see whenever they sweep or not. Anything else it's a great rework
I wonder if out of Chi stance if his side heavies should take the unblockable role and keep his top undodgable so he in team fights when needed and with his hit box can cause some external pressure while also opening up his opponent..??🧐
I really like his rework. They just need to fix some minor things like hitboxes and feat interactions like you said. One gripe I have is that I wish he kept one of his unblockables, specifically the top chi-stance ub,. I just find the top undodgeable to be less useful in most situations when forcing a reaction.
I've killed so many people by catching them dodging with it lmao, I honestly prefer it over the unblockable now. Just needs conditioning on who you're fighting and you'll be able to get them with it
To correct this. The top one is much better than the unblockable cause u can track with it and god I tell u those accidental blocks on my side undodgeable ones was annoying. I do however think that he should have kept the top unblockable after the kick.
Yeah, I see both sides. I just wish that chi stance top heavy was ub, so that during teamfights I could have more pressure. I understand why its good to have it undodgeable for 1v1s, I was just thinking in the perspective of teamfights.
At the higher skill brackets I am sure he is no problem, but us down here at the bottom he feels oppressive, I run into them every game, and I can barely defend myself
my only complaint is the stamina cost of the sweep, especially after feinting. If it was reduced from 30 to maybe 15 he could mixup more rather than tuckering out after 1 1/2 sweep combos
No, I under stand how you feel but we don't need more characters who can delete multiple health bars in one stamina bar. It doesn't mean they will, but it even being possible is a problem we've consistently had with updated/new heroes lately.
@@victornguyen1175 You don’t want your health bars being deleted? Then make the correct read. It’s infuriating how some heroes make you feel punished for trying to go on the offensive due to their bad stamina management.
A lot is the same, just new chains really. Major additions are sweep, dodge out of qi, and forward dodge bash, most of the other changes are property changes or new chains
i love this rework. it feels so fun and balanced and i love that. i do think that the sweep catching me on a left early dodge is a bit annoying. As well as people getting multiple heavies on me shen im being ganked against the sweep. But i think those things might get fixed and are smaller issues compared to the overall kit of shaolin. I enjoy playing against shaolin and also as shaolin. Hate conqueror tho
I really hope they change just one thing. Give us back the post kick top heavy 😭 I miss it :(( Oh… actually I totally forgot. That is nothing compared to the new Zone. It is absolutely useless imo. Maybe I haven’t just found the right way to use it yet. I just started playing again about a week ago after a year break lol. Getting the skill from before back is slow going 😂 I’m sure people I matched with those first few days saw my reps and stats like “uh oh get ready” and then I get out there and they’d say “how is this guy so bad…” Lol Anyway fr though he probably has the slowest zone now. In the past it was a very useful tool in his kit for all kinds of things from interrupting, feinting into and out of combos, getting a solid wide spread to gain a bit of space in an anti-gank scenario, and many more im sure 😢. Idk now I feel like I can’t even feint the zone bc it can be reaction parried/ deflected so easily. Ohhhhh wellll Shaolin is still and always will be my fav :) First tried him out in mid to late 2020 and he was my boy all through the pandemic!! So thank you for this video freeze! Very informative and really helped me find the differences post rework!! I missed so much being gone the last year I’m basically having to re-learn how to fight all these reworked heroes at once 😂 Ggs family sorry for the dang novel in the comments, but if anyone actually reads this then heck yeah! You rock! Let’s play sometime :P 🎉
Indeed i maned him before the rework and I took a break from the game for like a year and kinda upset that they reworked him and I feel like he’s not as good after the kick I could heavy unbreakable and then I would faint it, now I can’t. A lot of different stuff I don’t like.kinda sucks that I have to change the way I fight and now there isn’t much for combos with him to be aggressive
look.. personally i just hate unpunishable bashes/sweeps its 1 thing to predict it its another to get nothing for it. i find that in high tier play the literal only thing i can do to shaolin is wait for a light parry which isn't hard its just anoying cat and mouse gameplay.
What are the hitboxes like on the qi stance side heavies? I always instinctively use them in team fights but I'm not sure if the hitboxes are all that good
I say change the feat to where it only works on hit as the fact it works on block is stupid when it's undogeable in team fights it's basically a clease on demand too powerful and the fact it work on team mates is also a big problem Also change the cooldown as their are many options from chi stances if sliptthrough got nerf with both damage and cool down because how powerful it was on orochi then this should too
I genuinely hate that his infinite chain is completely untouched. If you made Qi stance able to link into itself and act as 90% of Shaolin's best options, whats the point of ever using his regular chains except for the occasional cheeky extra light on your way from neutral to Qi? It could be a three hit chain and Shaolin would be exactly the same, functionally.
This is a what I call a good rework (this is more of a buff then a rework technically) you don’t have to change the entirety of their kit you just need to change what their issues are shaolin was just underwhelming because he was lacking moves and needed tune ups.
The only problem I have with this rework is that they got rid of both of his unblockables. Especially the one he could’ve done after the kick. I HATE how the only thing you can do after a kick now is the light. As a frequent Shaolin player, I used that unblockable even more than the light. Playing him now, I’ve pressed the heavy button after the kick more often that I’ll admit, and seeing him just not do anything is aggravating. I also don’t get why they changed the top Chi stance heavy to be undodgable. He already has a foward dodge attack, and both side undodgable heavies, why did they think he needed another attack to catch dodges? If they wanted him to excel in teamfights, killing his external pressure, and overall pressure in a fight wasn’t the way to do it. If they at least add back the unblockable heavy option to the kick, I’ll be completely happy with this rework.
I like Shaolin but he could still use some tweaks, it's just he's better than he was previously. I'd prefer, as Freeze said, Qi Stance from finishers too and top heavy from Qi Stance should've remained unblockable. Besides these I'd say increase the sweep range because compared to Talk, Shaolin sweeps a single person while Valk sweeps just about everyone Infront of her. Just give them the same sweep is all I ask.
Well if you dodge his sweep, you can just light him to interrupt his heavy.. the light also lands before he can feint.. lack of knowledge for proper punishments does not make a hero OP..
@@BennyOddity and it’s also one of his only mix ups, which takes a large Amy of setup to even get to. Where characters like warden can do the exact same thing out of neutral. I don’t see how people are complaining that a character as cool and difficult to play as shaolin has a single 50/50
I’m heavily split on Shaolin’s rework. On one hand I love that he’s actual good, but on the other hand, I hate how streamlined he became. I kinda enjoyed the more esoteric and weird shaolin, even if his offense was weak. Though, I don’t know what I was expecting; it still is Ubisoft who’s doing the reworks.
It is still by far one of the more nuanced classes, only beaten by arguably kyoshin. It’s not like he has dodge cancel on everything, qi on everything, and sweep on everything, which was a very possible rework given recent heroes.
Well I'm loving his rework. I am a shaolin main before his rework and now he feels alot better. The only thing I wish they would change is the stamina for the sweep,just decrease it a bit
@@xavierjohnson2597 I find him able o nuke a health bar in one stamina bar if he hits all his attacks using only lights and heavy after sweep. The only thing I wish is that he could kill every character in one stamina bar. It's not that much to ask for since every other character almost can do that anyways.
@@FirePhoenix103 true but I like that I have to use my brain and I’m rewarded for doing so. If I feel like deleted somebody in 1 stam bar constantly I’ll use pirate lol
@@xavierjohnson2597 well saying shaolin takes more reads and thought than most characters,it's not to much to give him that. The odds you get every single read to kill someone in one bar is low at best (depending on skill). Nuxia is my favorite to do that with and all it takes is half her bar to kill someone.
The most surprising thing to me was the lack of a heavy soft-feint into light, to get into Qi stance. It would look janky without new animations, but it feels more intuitive as a non-bash opener than just "top light is enhanced now". Plus we don't have a hero yet with an omnidirectional light soft-feint that doesn't have some special property.
I do appreciate what they've done with shaolin so far. But I'd like the unblockable after kick back. And I'd like to feint into qi stance. It would give a lot more "flow" options with feintable sweep, unblockable, openers, and maybe undodgable qi attacks
Still waiting for Lawbringer Rework. "I hate hitboxes where the weapon model phases through a character and doesnt do anything" Lawbringer Mains: Yup Month 7(about to be 8) of Waiting.
@@horus_thebirbgod68 the 8 months is just the length of me waiting since the first time I commented this. Technically I've been waiting far longer, say 2 years now. But yeah, HL definitely needs some tweaks to his kit.
wasnt lb in comp meta for the longest time compared to any other hero? He still has very high potential for duels and ok ganks, better than like half the cast. Only thing lb needs is a good opener and remove impale on heavy parry
Am I in the minority annoyed as hell about this rework? sure he is much viable and fun to play but what about countering him? he is near impossible to be guardbreak and more slippery than JanJun, not to mention his stamina consumption is so low he ALWAYS has the upperhand and simply dodge attack every aggression he gets.
The sweep is the most annoying thing about his rework. In my opinion, I don’t think you should be able to chain on whiff. Plus it’s not guardbreak vulnerable on top of people being able to feint it. People complain about 50/50s right? Where’s the consistency hm?
So, do you also have a problem with Orochis kick, JJ's Kick, Gladiators shield bash, BP's shield bash, Gryphons bash, LB's bash, Tiandis bash, Zhanhu's bash, and shugokis bash? All of these bashes are able to chain on whiff.
@@Sarcastic_Frog Gryphon and LB bash do not chain on whiff. also, all the bashes you mentioned either confirm a light attack or nothing at all, shaolin's confirms a heavy.
@@Sarcastic_Frog and the attack that is confirmed by the bash is an important detail when discussing the viability of it. If any of those other characters actually land their bash, they get a light attack. Low reward for low risk. If shaolin lands his he gets a heavy. High reward for low risk. Pretty important.
Honestly. I think this is one of their best reworks imo. It gave him everything he needed and he is more than viable now. I love fighting him as I lose and win on a regular basis to him in a fair fight.
Everyone saying shaolin rework is amazing lol he's now the meta character for brain dead moves but you got all this characters that don't compare close to ez mode shaolin haha Ubisoft wilding...
Tiandi, Warlord, Kensei, Valk, Nobushi, Peacekeeper. sadly now they ain't shit against this crazy reworks can't even compare. this game is all about meta characters now
This was the last straw for me. His leg sweep Is hard to dodge and when he gets it he’s offered a free heavy into a light. His dodge attack recovery is too fast for most characters and him being able to feint the leg sweep makes it impossible to counter with the more balanced characters. Play against him as a warden and see what I mean. His stamina is off the charts. You can play as defensive as you need to and it seems like there’s never an opening. His top attack also can’t be dodged which doesn’t make sense since it’s a neutral attack. Don’t even get me started on multiple player fights. Since the leg sweep already offers a free heavy into light, this becomes more op when you realize their other teammates can hit you with little to no recovery as well. And we already know how terrible the revenge system is. Overall it’s another terrible rework. It seems like the people who think this characters rework was needed more than likely already use op characters to begin with. He was fine the way he was and I actually enjoyed fighting him. Now it seems like a waste of time to fight him because unless you’re using a character with a dodge attack, it’s pretty much already game over. Just another shitty rework to a game I used to love but have lost hope in.
havnt watched yet, expectation: he will say nothing is wrong with shaolin and will call stupid annyone who says his sweep is borken ah yeah ''no one has complained about the rework'' i cant count the amount of games ive seen people complain about it
Honestly you couldn't ask any better out of a shaolin rework. He has a complete moveset of options with a complete array of counterplay to and just like he always was, everything feels decided on and intentionally done with shaolin. He's still far from a meta powerhouse, but he's comfortably viable with a very good give and take, risk/reward to his moveset. To help the console players who aren't as in tuned with the finer techniques in for honor who struggle with shaolin now, ill list the viable mixups in shaolins KIT and your options to counter them. 1. Enhanced top light, you can't block to prevent QI stance anymore so having to learn to reaction parry his top light is a must, however you can't be too reckless with it or you'll eat alot of top heavies, you can expect a mixup with heavies if you've parried multiple light openers before. 2. Kick/undodgeable, shaolins QI lights are reactable so blocking them is easy and consistent, but the kick/undodgeable poses a good mixup. The kick can be chained after, but only with a universally timed light attack, so learn not to immediately gb after dodging the sun kick because a top light can be chained afterwards for a free light parry. The undodgeable has been slowed post rework so now you have the option to light interupt it on read if you've been stunned by a light hit/blockstun. This option is less risky than a parry as the shaolin can only feint and block the light attack. 3. Sweep, the move can be chained after miss into a forward dodge heavy which beats gb unless feinted, however you can punish sweep aggressively by light attacking on read to feint sweep, and after dodging a sweep (without a dodge attack) you can neutral light and interupt the chained heavy afterwards without making the read on weather he feint it or not. 4. Neutral kick, its rather slow but has good range and decent tracking, so it can be reaction dodged, afterwards however he can chain into neutral attacks meaning you have to deal with omnidirectional lights and heavies after dodging so best dodge attack if possible. Dodge cancels... don't forget he has them now.
I hope they add the ub heavy after qi kick back, would add more options to shaolin instead of just throwing a light, because sooner or later players will be expecting the light after shaolin misses his qi kick. Some people will say "but you can use his forward dodge kick when in qi stance which can allow you to throw a heavy, so why add a move back that guarantees nothing?" Well as I said before it adds options to shaolin missing his qi stance kick and because its unblockable adds more pressure. And say you do go for a dodge kick out of qi stance well look at that you can't do a sweep so you have to go back into qi stance, not a bad thing but you won't be able to use shaolins sweep after preforming a dodge kick. So hopefully they can add his ub heavy back from qi stance kick.
@@atynniehawke9341 bro if orochi has access to an unblockable attack after missing his kick, why can't shaolin? Everyone is complaining he doesn't have an unblockable, well he had 2, 1 that was replaced for a undodgeable attack, and the other got completely taken away from him. And here I am suggesting that he gets back the one unblockable that didn't need to be removed or is broken and you are saying it will overtune him??!?! You won't be able to spam it like most of the other characters! You would have to commit to a kick for the unblockable heavy to be thrown out! LIKE OROCHI!!!
@@atynniehawke9341 because people aren't complaining about it, its not broken we even tested orochis kick unblockable heavy wiff or land everyone liked it. So you are seriously going to complain about shaolins which requires not 1 but 2 steps to access the unblockable. I would understand if it was pirate, raider, conqueror, or even Jang Jun, with their unblockable attack spams. But you can't even spam shaolins even if they do add it. You would need to attack with light or a heavy, go into qi stance, kick, and the throw a light. And if you are a competent player, you can make reads.
@@Vova_6-2-6-0 i complain if on top of all 50/50 and unpunishable stuff he has they gave him an unblockable as well, this 50/50 meta became kind of an annoyance, everyone want the cheap way to deal damage, never get punished and never being stopped, new players look like toddlers nowdays
![[For Honor] Insane Reaction Or Scripter IDK Anymore - Shaolin Duels](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/zwf26lSI3vA/mqdefault.jpg)
I kinda like the idea of making him viable in teamfights by making him a sort of support character that can win fights by healing rather than damage. It seems way more interesting than just having map wide unblockables but unfortunately i worry it wont be effective
I can confirm it's all effective
Getting swept by him gank fights is GGs basically, the sweep gives no revenge at all
Couldn't agree more, sweep should be levelled as valkyrie sweep friendly fire is a must so he has to be carefull where he sweeps.
I never realized how nice his sweep feint animation is. Slowing it down really shows how much of a master shaolin is
Personally not a fan of the rework. Striving to give every hero an answer for everything will eventually lead to all hero's being very similar, and I'm not really a fan of that. I liked how, at launch and the 3 years following, every hero played different and were good in certain situations but bad in others. The second you decide "hey, let's give every hero a bash, hyper armor, and dodge attacks" is when everyone starts to play the same. Vanguard should be similar to each other, assassins should be similar to each other, and heavys should be similar to each other, with the only exception being hybrids. If every hero gets the same characteristics of each other in the end, then why even have class-based hero's at this point? Rag on me all you want, but I'm not a fan of where the FH team is taking the direction of the game.
I finnaly found someone else who dosent like the rework. I felt like shoalin was completely fine before the rework. The unblockable they used to have was fine. The only thing they should have changed from before the rework was the dodge attack into stance. That was the only change they should have made. That change was the only reasonable one. And maybe the sweep after the kick should have been changed to like what they have now but not after every stance attack like they have it now. Really in my opinion he was completely fine there was nothing needing a rework about them.
Only us verterans will remember how characters used to be unique
@@yoshigaming9321 A uniquely bad hero isn't a good hero. Blame the devs for being so restrictive and/or unimaginative in how they design offensive moves that they have to use the same 3 types of attacks that they know work, rather than lobbying for culling effective movesets.
Oh yea and what are they gonna spend the extra time on balancing?
@@sugmaballs6027 the change he needed the most was the neutral kick cuz Jesus Christ I ain’t seen a character b so bad at opening people up
oh god i'm flowing 💩
🧻
Love your vids man
I like what they done with shaolin, his rework makes him a better character. But what baffles me is how they did this next to conq rework? How do you do well with one character, but completely meat grind conq?
I'm not going to jump to the conclusion of favouritism, but both characters were given the same time frame to be reworked, and possibly the same people. The end result for shaolin makes it seem that they put so much effort into it, but conq is just lazy decisions of add this and that.
I’ve played since the beta of this game on Xbox one. Ubi has favorited knights from the get go. Best armor , best executions , best weapons looks. Best move sets for having fun.
Im not sure the complains against conq are that legit. He is fucking oppresive now but shaolin can destroy conq too, their rework are very strong but in different ways. People just don't like orange because it force them to act and react and it is indeed a bit tedious at time but the time of THE unblockable that come somewhere in a chain is over, we know it now. Conq is not that alien in the game as it is now.
Ganking is a miserable mess now but not because of conq, it's like that for a while now and shaolin sweep is as obnoxious in these situations
No wonder they plan on remove the ability to gb people from the side because dominion is so biased now, it is almost luck to survive a gank, renvenge can't save you anymore when it is more than 1v2, rarely.
Imo conq is not the worst of the roaster right now, far from it
Because Conq is tank type of hero his Weapon is not so Great
Conp is his own page in this book because first of all he is by far the most hated hero which is why they hat to be carefull of who they listen in case of fedback since many wanna see them in the ground
Second his lack of animation ubisoft did stop a long time ago to make new character animation for rework and while this is no issue by other heroes it definitily is on conp since his animation are Limited with not even a single one fitting for a role catcher (which is why he didnt got one) so yeah overall conp was way more harder to rework therefore a fail was inevitable
Shaolin at least had an interesting base moveset and mostly needed tweaks to be good. Conq didn't have much to work with. But yeah I still agree it was rough
I fucking despise this rework so much, it feels like fighting a fucking machine gun on console man
shaolins rework is fantastic imo and makes him feel like he has an answer for everything. the light attacks from qi stance do make me feel a little cheap though
the fact that any atack can come after the sweep and so it has no punish is what makes it op imo, even if you dodje correctly (wich is still a 50/50) you get rewarded with no damage
Specials like the sweep where the only answer to them is to dodge should never be feintable, because its either get hit, or get hard guard-broken and combo'd again, probably back into the special again.
The skeleton crew left working on FH legit have no idea what balance is, do they.
Exactly !
I understand the game moving towards giving heroes more aggressive purely read base movesets but it’s still quite annoying to fight a shaolin without a dodge attack when he can just get a free light/heavy even after you making the correct read to dodge, basically forcing you to make correct reads twice in a row (or even three because he can still feint the heavy), meanwhile most of other bash heavy heroes can’t do that, however rather than taking away his follow up or allowing others to follow up I think the best solution is to just give everyone a dodge attack
How can you making the correct read mean the shaolin gets a free light/heavy? Surely that means either the read or your timing was wrong
@@leetzabach5793 if you guess correctly that he’s going for a kick/sweep and without a dodge attack you can really only gb punish him, but he can just follow up and you eat a light/heavy, so you have to make a read again that if he will throw out the follow up or not and parries it (mind you the light is 400ms and the heavy is feintable, meaning he might feint it again so you have to make three correct reads in a row if you don’t have a dodge attack in order to punish him)
@@pepega2838 you can just block the heavy after sweep, and the light after kick is always from the top lol
@@Bigbigger1009 i always just light people when i dodge the sweep.
I dont understand his problem.
Indeed just blocking, gbing after sweep is a rookie mistake.
You dont gb glad after a missed toestab xD.
@@Bigbigger1009 wait so you’re telling me I just shouldn’t be able to punish his mixup when so many of other bashes can be? I’m trying to discuss about how heroes without dodge attack can’t punish the bashes and you’re telling me to just block? That’s not even the point I’m trying to make
4:50 it could be interesting to have a character that incorporated being able to flow after being parried into their move set obviously with some conditions to prevent it from becoming op.
Almost like an super enhanced light attack.
I could actually see how that would work character-wise with Shaolin. If he gets parried and the enemy pushes his staff away, he could quickly flip the staff around and hit his opponent on the other side while they are still recovering from the parry. Gameplay wise this would be broken, but it’s a cool idea nonetheless.
@@theitalianmexican1035 I was thinking it might work to replace Nuxia’s traps where she gets a fast flow after getting her heavy parried that cancels her parry stun and allows her to use a quick all guard like Musha or a top light attack that stuffs GBs but is slow. (so she can gamble at getting to continue her offence at the risk of getting GB’d/light parried and the opponent has to make a read of whether to light or to GB)
Maybe use the trap catching animation as the all guard follow up. It obviously wouldn’t make her viable on its own but with half decent offence that doesn’t even have to be 50/50s normally be in her favour (maybe let her soft feint into an unblockable version) she could be an interesting character.
I think it defeats the purpose of a parry to be able to move immediately afterward
@@danieltirico6593 to be able to do a specific move I don’t think so. It’s like a different form of follow up on whiff like Nobushi and Valkyrie both have. Where throwing your bash is made viable but the fact that the opponent has to make a read to punish it.
It would obviously have to be limited
I may be a bit biased here but I genuinely hate going against shaolin since the rework. I’ve heard so much praise for him but he’s just become incredibly annoying and I feel like conq has just gotten a disproportionate amount of hate. Again, considering the fact that conq is one of my favorite characters I may be biased .
Both of em are pieces of shit lol
I personally hate the change that he can chain on whiff with all of the bashes. I loved the rework until that
@@ethanhalsey3630 exactly, it’s like he’s getting rewarded for fucking up lol
Everyone ive faced who played shoalin played them all insanely defensive no one plays then agresivly they all just turtle
I like the rework but there is one thing that bothers me. And that's the fact that he gets a follow up attack after a missed bash or sweep ik it can be reacted but in anti-gank its annoying. Another fact is I hope they add the feature that the sweep from shaolin can knock down teammates too soo they have to see whenever they sweep or not. Anything else it's a great rework
"Maybe I'm reacting."
"No you're not"
made me really laugh lol
I wonder if out of Chi stance if his side heavies should take the unblockable role and keep his top undodgable so he in team fights when needed and with his hit box can cause some external pressure while also opening up his opponent..??🧐
I really like his rework. They just need to fix some minor things like hitboxes and feat interactions like you said. One gripe I have is that I wish he kept one of his unblockables, specifically the top chi-stance ub,. I just find the top undodgeable to be less useful in most situations when forcing a reaction.
I've killed so many people by catching them dodging with it lmao, I honestly prefer it over the unblockable now. Just needs conditioning on who you're fighting and you'll be able to get them with it
To correct this. The top one is much better than the unblockable cause u can track with it and god I tell u those accidental blocks on my side undodgeable ones was annoying. I do however think that he should have kept the top unblockable after the kick.
Yeah, I see both sides. I just wish that chi stance top heavy was ub, so that during teamfights I could have more pressure. I understand why its good to have it undodgeable for 1v1s, I was just thinking in the perspective of teamfights.
At the higher skill brackets I am sure he is no problem, but us down here at the bottom he feels oppressive, I run into them every game, and I can barely defend myself
my only complaint is the stamina cost of the sweep, especially after feinting. If it was reduced from 30 to maybe 15 he could mixup more rather than tuckering out after 1 1/2 sweep combos
No, I under stand how you feel but we don't need more characters who can delete multiple health bars in one stamina bar.
It doesn't mean they will, but it even being possible is a problem we've consistently had with updated/new heroes lately.
Cough cough raider
My only complaint is that the dodge attack doesnt fucking dodge attacks
@@victornguyen1175 You don’t want your health bars being deleted? Then make the correct read.
It’s infuriating how some heroes make you feel punished for trying to go on the offensive due to their bad stamina management.
i have never played shaolin and he still looks the same as old shaolin to me
A lot is the same, just new chains really. Major additions are sweep, dodge out of qi, and forward dodge bash, most of the other changes are property changes or new chains
That clip at the end with the gb whiffs made my organs hurt, I hate it when that happens.
They literally made Shaolin into brainless free win character like Shinobi before his nerf
i love this rework. it feels so fun and balanced and i love that. i do think that the sweep catching me on a left early dodge is a bit annoying. As well as people getting multiple heavies on me shen im being ganked against the sweep. But i think those things might get fixed and are smaller issues compared to the overall kit of shaolin. I enjoy playing against shaolin and also as shaolin. Hate conqueror tho
Balanced? xD
@@NorthernHarker well i think its balanced lol
@@NorthernHarker he has no hyper armor or no unblockable attacks he is definitely balanced but they should of done more
Some heroes have literally 0 counter play to shaolin without parrying for minor damage
@@thebigree6155 those heroes should get some kinds of buffs to allow them to deal with shaolin
How do you do the kick with shiolin now ?
Shaolin is the best rework Ubi has ever done(maybe after Kensei)
Beautifully said man
I am like 90% sure that I did proc invigorate once with the kick, I haven't been able to recreate it nor do I have footage
The only thing I saw in the side by side comparison for the sweep is that he seems to remove his hand from his staff on feints.
I really hope they change just one thing. Give us back the post kick top heavy 😭 I miss it :((
Oh… actually I totally forgot. That is nothing compared to the new Zone. It is absolutely useless imo. Maybe I haven’t just found the right way to use it yet. I just started playing again about a week ago after a year break lol. Getting the skill from before back is slow going 😂 I’m sure people I matched with those first few days saw my reps and stats like “uh oh get ready” and then I get out there and they’d say “how is this guy so bad…” Lol
Anyway fr though he probably has the slowest zone now. In the past it was a very useful tool in his kit for all kinds of things from interrupting, feinting into and out of combos, getting a solid wide spread to gain a bit of space in an anti-gank scenario, and many more im sure 😢. Idk now I feel like I can’t even feint the zone bc it can be reaction parried/ deflected so easily. Ohhhhh wellll Shaolin is still and always will be my fav :) First tried him out in mid to late 2020 and he was my boy all through the pandemic!! So thank you for this video freeze! Very informative and really helped me find the differences post rework!! I missed so much being gone the last year I’m basically having to re-learn how to fight all these reworked heroes at once 😂 Ggs family sorry for the dang novel in the comments, but if anyone actually reads this then heck yeah! You rock! Let’s play sometime :P 🎉
Indeed i maned him before the rework and I took a break from the game for like a year and kinda upset that they reworked him and I feel like he’s not as good after the kick I could heavy unbreakable and then I would faint it, now I can’t. A lot of different stuff I don’t like.kinda sucks that I have to change the way I fight and now there isn’t much for combos with him to be aggressive
I would like to have the unblockable and not the neutral kick
If shoalin's sweep doesn't unbalance allies then why does valk's?
look.. personally i just hate unpunishable bashes/sweeps its 1 thing to predict it its another to get nothing for it. i find that in high tier play the literal only thing i can do to shaolin is wait for a light parry which isn't hard its just anoying cat and mouse gameplay.
I want his old zone back, otherwise I LOVE the rework
anyone else not having fun I'm not having fun...currently this feels like the worst state of play since they introduced wu Lin to the game
No fun at all….
IMO Shaolin is annoying asf….
But I guess this is the new for honor…
@@Noexela definitely annoying no arguments 🙄 here
What are the hitboxes like on the qi stance side heavies? I always instinctively use them in team fights but I'm not sure if the hitboxes are all that good
How about if they made his stance attack flow back into the stance if u held the attack button
I say change the feat to where it only works on hit as the fact it works on block is stupid when it's undogeable in team fights it's basically a clease on demand too powerful and the fact it work on team mates is also a big problem
Also change the cooldown as their are many options from chi stances if sliptthrough got nerf with both damage and cool down because how powerful it was on orochi then this should too
I love this character AAAAAAAA
I genuinely hate that his infinite chain is completely untouched. If you made Qi stance able to link into itself and act as 90% of Shaolin's best options, whats the point of ever using his regular chains except for the occasional cheeky extra light on your way from neutral to Qi? It could be a three hit chain and Shaolin would be exactly the same, functionally.
For the sweep thing, the only way i found that works to dodge it is backwards
Yea, the fact that invigorate hasnt been changed just further shows how ignorant ubi is of feats despite them playing such a big role in game
This is a what I call a good rework (this is more of a buff then a rework technically) you don’t have to change the entirety of their kit you just need to change what their issues are shaolin was just underwhelming because he was lacking moves and needed tune ups.
They were not lacking moves at all
The only problem I have with this rework is that they got rid of both of his unblockables. Especially the one he could’ve done after the kick. I HATE how the only thing you can do after a kick now is the light. As a frequent Shaolin player, I used that unblockable even more than the light. Playing him now, I’ve pressed the heavy button after the kick more often that I’ll admit, and seeing him just not do anything is aggravating. I also don’t get why they changed the top Chi stance heavy to be undodgable. He already has a foward dodge attack, and both side undodgable heavies, why did they think he needed another attack to catch dodges? If they wanted him to excel in teamfights, killing his external pressure, and overall pressure in a fight wasn’t the way to do it. If they at least add back the unblockable heavy option to the kick, I’ll be completely happy with this rework.
I'm feeling so stupid when after the kick i press heavy and just don't do anything
I like Shaolin but he could still use some tweaks, it's just he's better than he was previously. I'd prefer, as Freeze said, Qi Stance from finishers too and top heavy from Qi Stance should've remained unblockable. Besides these I'd say increase the sweep range because compared to Talk, Shaolin sweeps a single person while Valk sweeps just about everyone Infront of her. Just give them the same sweep is all I ask.
I haven't played the game for a year ! Why the new character has Unblockable + hyper armor + dash xD
Shaolin is op for sure, the sweep is very close to undodgeable and can chain into heavy on wiff that should be taken out
Well if you dodge his sweep, you can just light him to interrupt his heavy.. the light also lands before he can feint.. lack of knowledge for proper punishments does not make a hero OP..
@@BennyOddity and it’s also one of his only mix ups, which takes a large Amy of setup to even get to. Where characters like warden can do the exact same thing out of neutral. I don’t see how people are complaining that a character as cool and difficult to play as shaolin has a single 50/50
I’m heavily split on Shaolin’s rework. On one hand I love that he’s actual good, but on the other hand, I hate how streamlined he became. I kinda enjoyed the more esoteric and weird shaolin, even if his offense was weak. Though, I don’t know what I was expecting; it still is Ubisoft who’s doing the reworks.
It is still by far one of the more nuanced classes, only beaten by arguably kyoshin. It’s not like he has dodge cancel on everything, qi on everything, and sweep on everything, which was a very possible rework given recent heroes.
@@seraphendipity kyoshin isn’t nuanced💀
How do use the sweep on xbox??
press X after any Qi move
@@fkkfreeze OHHHH THANK YOU, it’s so simple I was just making it complicated
Well I'm loving his rework. I am a shaolin main before his rework and now he feels alot better. The only thing I wish they would change is the stamina for the sweep,just decrease it a bit
Agreed he runs out of Stam a little bit too quickly sometimes
@@xavierjohnson2597 I find him able o nuke a health bar in one stamina bar if he hits all his attacks using only lights and heavy after sweep. The only thing I wish is that he could kill every character in one stamina bar. It's not that much to ask for since every other character almost can do that anyways.
@@FirePhoenix103 true but I like that I have to use my brain and I’m rewarded for doing so. If I feel like deleted somebody in 1 stam bar constantly I’ll use pirate lol
@@xavierjohnson2597 well saying shaolin takes more reads and thought than most characters,it's not to much to give him that. The odds you get every single read to kill someone in one bar is low at best (depending on skill). Nuxia is my favorite to do that with and all it takes is half her bar to kill someone.
@@FirePhoenix103 you’re right I see what you mean tho if that happened they may try to nerf him so I’m satisfied with what we have
Nova King did a deflect but was cancelled cause it hit the wall. So his deflect isn't 100% guaranteed
I had to pick him up because the rework made him look ez mode to use.
The most surprising thing to me was the lack of a heavy soft-feint into light, to get into Qi stance. It would look janky without new animations, but it feels more intuitive as a non-bash opener than just "top light is enhanced now". Plus we don't have a hero yet with an omnidirectional light soft-feint that doesn't have some special property.
This is quite a nice idea that I can get behind.
I do appreciate what they've done with shaolin so far. But I'd like the unblockable after kick back. And I'd like to feint into qi stance. It would give a lot more "flow" options with feintable sweep, unblockable, openers, and maybe undodgable qi attacks
I play Dom but I don't have a type: Shaolin,JJ,zhanhu
And remember conq is getting another change tomorrow
I heard Warden and Kensei are next.
Jesus Warden is so trash, hoping and praying. And Kensei is fine, his heavies are just slo but the enders have hyper armor sooooo 🤷🏾♂️🤷🏾♂️
Still waiting for Lawbringer Rework.
"I hate hitboxes where the weapon model phases through a character and doesnt do anything"
Lawbringer Mains: Yup
Month 7(about to be 8) of Waiting.
Me, waiting for a HL rework for 3 fking years
@@horus_thebirbgod68 the 8 months is just the length of me waiting since the first time I commented this. Technically I've been waiting far longer, say 2 years now. But yeah, HL definitely needs some tweaks to his kit.
wasnt lb in comp meta for the longest time compared to any other hero? He still has very high potential for duels and ok ganks, better than like half the cast. Only thing lb needs is a good opener and remove impale on heavy parry
@@cykablyat6348 He was in Comp meta Id say 3 years ago?
Am I in the minority annoyed as hell about this rework? sure he is much viable and fun to play but what about countering him? he is near impossible to be guardbreak and more slippery than JanJun, not to mention his stamina consumption is so low he ALWAYS has the upperhand and simply dodge attack every aggression he gets.
I hate this rework too i felt like they were completely fine how they were
He’s so fucking op
The sweep is the most annoying thing about his rework. In my opinion, I don’t think you should be able to chain on whiff. Plus it’s not guardbreak vulnerable on top of people being able to feint it. People complain about 50/50s right? Where’s the consistency hm?
So, do you also have a problem with Orochis kick, JJ's Kick, Gladiators shield bash, BP's shield bash, Gryphons bash, LB's bash, Tiandis bash, Zhanhu's bash, and shugokis bash? All of these bashes are able to chain on whiff.
@@Sarcastic_Frog Gryphon and LB bash do not chain on whiff. also, all the bashes you mentioned either confirm a light attack or nothing at all, shaolin's confirms a heavy.
@@Sarcastic_Frog Look at valkyrie sweep then look at Shaolin sweep, you are compering knockdown ability with bashes.
@@jonathancarpenter2336 it wasn't about the damage the hot bash confirms, but about chain on whiff ability.
@@Sarcastic_Frog and the attack that is confirmed by the bash is an important detail when discussing the viability of it. If any of those other characters actually land their bash, they get a light attack. Low reward for low risk. If shaolin lands his he gets a heavy. High reward for low risk. Pretty important.
Honestly. I think this is one of their best reworks imo. It gave him everything he needed and he is more than viable now. I love fighting him as I lose and win on a regular basis to him in a fair fight.
Everyone saying shaolin rework is amazing lol he's now the meta character for brain dead moves but you got all this characters that don't compare close to ez mode shaolin haha Ubisoft wilding...
Who's a balanced hero in your eyes?
Tiandi, Warlord, Kensei, Valk, Nobushi, Peacekeeper. sadly now they ain't shit against this crazy reworks can't even compare. this game is all about meta characters now
@@fkkfreeze shaman gladiator valk tiandi are the closet to balance being on a spectrum
You should make a video of how many times u said how's it going everybody because I swear u say that in every video 😆
My only complaint for Shaolin was the Nerf to his Zone attack...its so slow now that even a Half Blind Baby could parry it
This was the last straw for me. His leg sweep Is hard to dodge and when he gets it he’s offered a free heavy into a light. His dodge attack recovery is too fast for most characters and him being able to feint the leg sweep makes it impossible to counter with the more balanced characters. Play against him as a warden and see what I mean. His stamina is off the charts. You can play as defensive as you need to and it seems like there’s never an opening. His top attack also can’t be dodged which doesn’t make sense since it’s a neutral attack. Don’t even get me started on multiple player fights. Since the leg sweep already offers a free heavy into light, this becomes more op when you realize their other teammates can hit you with little to no recovery as well. And we already know how terrible the revenge system is. Overall it’s another terrible rework. It seems like the people who think this characters rework was needed more than likely already use op characters to begin with. He was fine the way he was and I actually enjoyed fighting him. Now it seems like a waste of time to fight him because unless you’re using a character with a dodge attack, it’s pretty much already game over. Just another shitty rework to a game I used to love but have lost hope in.
havnt watched yet, expectation: he will say nothing is wrong with shaolin and will call stupid annyone who says his sweep is borken
ah yeah ''no one has complained about the rework'' i cant count the amount of games ive seen people complain about it
Im in love with many changes, but as a shaolin main, he feels kinda braindead :/
Honestly you couldn't ask any better out of a shaolin rework. He has a complete moveset of options with a complete array of counterplay to and just like he always was, everything feels decided on and intentionally done with shaolin.
He's still far from a meta powerhouse, but he's comfortably viable with a very good give and take, risk/reward to his moveset.
To help the console players who aren't as in tuned with the finer techniques in for honor who struggle with shaolin now, ill list the viable mixups in shaolins KIT and your options to counter them.
1. Enhanced top light, you can't block to prevent QI stance anymore so having to learn to reaction parry his top light is a must, however you can't be too reckless with it or you'll eat alot of top heavies, you can expect a mixup with heavies if you've parried multiple light openers before.
2. Kick/undodgeable, shaolins QI lights are reactable so blocking them is easy and consistent, but the kick/undodgeable poses a good mixup. The kick can be chained after, but only with a universally timed light attack, so learn not to immediately gb after dodging the sun kick because a top light can be chained afterwards for a free light parry.
The undodgeable has been slowed post rework so now you have the option to light interupt it on read if you've been stunned by a light hit/blockstun.
This option is less risky than a parry as the shaolin can only feint and block the light attack.
3. Sweep, the move can be chained after miss into a forward dodge heavy which beats gb unless feinted, however you can punish sweep aggressively by light attacking on read to feint sweep, and after dodging a sweep (without a dodge attack) you can neutral light and interupt the chained heavy afterwards without making the read on weather he feint it or not.
4. Neutral kick, its rather slow but has good range and decent tracking, so it can be reaction dodged, afterwards however he can chain into neutral attacks meaning you have to deal with omnidirectional lights and heavies after dodging so best dodge attack if possible.
Dodge cancels... don't forget he has them now.
I think they could nerf his tier 3 feat but changing it only to heal him similar to BPs feat or reduce the radius
I hope they add the ub heavy after qi kick back, would add more options to shaolin instead of just throwing a light, because sooner or later players will be expecting the light after shaolin misses his qi kick. Some people will say "but you can use his forward dodge kick when in qi stance which can allow you to throw a heavy, so why add a move back that guarantees nothing?" Well as I said before it adds options to shaolin missing his qi stance kick and because its unblockable adds more pressure. And say you do go for a dodge kick out of qi stance well look at that you can't do a sweep so you have to go back into qi stance, not a bad thing but you won't be able to use shaolins sweep after preforming a dodge kick. So hopefully they can add his ub heavy back from qi stance kick.
Yeah, i mean you want him to be overtuned with absolutely no downsides whatsoever, seems fair
@@atynniehawke9341 bro if orochi has access to an unblockable attack after missing his kick, why can't shaolin? Everyone is complaining he doesn't have an unblockable, well he had 2, 1 that was replaced for a undodgeable attack, and the other got completely taken away from him. And here I am suggesting that he gets back the one unblockable that didn't need to be removed or is broken and you are saying it will overtune him??!?! You won't be able to spam it like most of the other characters! You would have to commit to a kick for the unblockable heavy to be thrown out! LIKE OROCHI!!!
@@Vova_6-2-6-0 orochi shouldn't have either, who told you using orochi as an example would've made a point, lol
@@atynniehawke9341 because people aren't complaining about it, its not broken we even tested orochis kick unblockable heavy wiff or land everyone liked it. So you are seriously going to complain about shaolins which requires not 1 but 2 steps to access the unblockable. I would understand if it was pirate, raider, conqueror, or even Jang Jun, with their unblockable attack spams. But you can't even spam shaolins even if they do add it. You would need to attack with light or a heavy, go into qi stance, kick, and the throw a light. And if you are a competent player, you can make reads.
@@Vova_6-2-6-0 i complain if on top of all 50/50 and unpunishable stuff he has they gave him an unblockable as well, this 50/50 meta became kind of an annoyance, everyone want the cheap way to deal damage, never get punished and never being stopped, new players look like toddlers nowdays
And ppl saying he’s balanced please stop 😂😂😂 no fr stop it
I want cent buff mwhaaaaahhh😭😭😭
I don't get why they removed the top unblockable. If Shinobi can have side undodgable and top unblockable then why can't Shaolin?
Am I the only one who thinks he’s op
He needs bouth unblockables back and then hes super nice :3
He's so unstoppable and so unpunishable that makes me sick
He is, I guess correctly and get punished….
@@Noexela he's not gb vulnerable at all, he's unpunishable
Keep his T3 the same, there's barely any "healers" apart from Gryphon and maybe JJ.
Next rework should remove him from the game
Hehehe ha
Worst rework by far.
The only thing i really liked was forward kick
Boomer
rude
@@fkkfreeze boomer