A reminder again to please be kind and respectful when debating on this topic, no need to be at each others throats for a goofy video game. Thank you :) (Director's Take Summary edit) - The 6v6 Director's Take is out as of today 7/25/2024. It basically goes into the history of all the format changes they did to overwatch, (similar to what I do here) but obviously adds a bit more detail from their perspective. Aaron also adds at the end they are open to testing out 6v6 and other format changes in quick play hacked. Can read it all yourself here - overwatch.blizzard.com/en-us/news/24104605/?fbclid=PAZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAaaOK3_7fO3cVAyEMUv8XnUmSThYAzllmYxV0IZYD9U15Al-CoE0Zs0FDk0_aem_l_MIdrZj--kE5WsbnoNvcA My Opinion - I think Aaron actually did a pretty good job with this, being very open about things and taking points in from both sides. He never outright says 6v6 or 5v5 is better, just mentions points from both sides and their perspective overtime. I also of course love the fact he said they are willing to test major format changes like 6v6 in the Quick Play hacked instead of just putting it in the game outright (as ya boi suggested). Again overall very pleased with this and how open he was to us about it. If the dev team continues to be this open about things and listening to the community, I have high hopes about the future :)
Hell no I’m not being nice. Everyone with half a brain said for the last 2 years of OW1 that 5v5 couldn’t work. Then the pros said it. But the Devs ignored the best and most knowledgeable players on the planet on every continent, and implemented it anyway. We’ve been screaming about it since OW2 dropped. Everything that plagued OW1 is not only present in OW2, but it’s significantly worse XD. Hills became mountains. We have every hero massively over tweaked, the hyper mobility creep, these weird ass passive creeps, “DPS feels better” said NO DPS PLAYER EVER. You just shoot and shoot and nothing dies because supports outheal damage, and then supports have a get out of jail free card. Teleport, Suzu, Immortality, Fade, like what? Not to mention the skill ceiling falling so low I bet my 2 year old could place diamond, because bullets are the size of softballs and projectiles are literally barrels now. Not to include the “play for you” creep. Illari Pylon is insane, the new hero just has auto locking bullets and missiles? None of these new heroes feel like the original lineup. We went from McCree with a flash and quick load, and if you messed it up you were dead. To Venture who is invulnerable underground, jumps up and takes like half a swishes health bar, and 2 shots. And if she messes it up, she gets bap immortality field and when you shoot that and almost kill her she gets suzued, and when you almost kill her again her underground ability is off cool down and you’re back to square 1. Which, also, double shield was not a problem until bap got released. Immortality and invulnerability was the first sign this game was shit. That’s what made it terrible. We went from high skill heroes, where mistakes and bad positioning left you dead. To, go and do whatever you want, drop 30k damage for 8 kills, and be invulnerable for half the game. I’m not going to be nice about it, these devs are insane. And this community is full of morons. Being nice about everything is what got us here ein the first place. For half a goddamn decade, it was “trust the devs” “just be patient” “let them cook”, and now look? The game is awful, because everyone was walking on eggshells in the first place. Dies anyone actually hop on and go, man I really love this game, this game is the best it’s ever been. No. Not a soul does that, except for the handful of streamers who have to stay relevant 👀 Flats. Who thirsted for Fran so hard she stopped playing altogether essentially. Not to mention the identity politics creep. Tracer, lesbian, cool. 76, gay, cool. Widowmaker, husband slayer cool. Like it or not, identity politics is notoriously a killer. Because it gies from established lore to pandering. It nearly killed off the MCU altogether. Fuck man. Delete everything and bring back 2018 Overwatch we can move forward from there.
While balance is a big Issue, for me I used to be an off-tank player, and I really enjoyed the playstyle of enable my tank/ dps and peel for my supports, now I'm forced to just play main tank and I don't enjoy it, I don't wanna use 2 bubbles on myself but I have to or I get way less value and give up so much space. Its like if the removed a support and now Lucio, Brig, and Mercy either got reworks that change their entire playstyle to fit the flex support playstyle or they become giga buffed and now Lucio makes everyone go faster that wrecking ball. It may be a similar experience for everyone else if they buff/rework every support but the support players would hate the game, We joke about reddit Lucio's, but now they don't get to play how they wanted to or they are literally throwing, they don't have fun anymore
I'm exactly the same. I played OW1 since the beta and I always absolutely adored playing off tank. It was my favorite role for years but as soon as OW2 came out; I'm stuck playing a weird game of rock paper scissors against the other tank 💀. Heaven forbid you win the first team fight because the entire team counterswaps and still retains all of their ult charge. The last couple of seasons had me completely drop the game which is weird for me of all people lol.
Counter picking the tank in OW2 feels like 3-5 players bullying one player. If you tried that in OW1 at least you’d have another tank who probably wasn’t countered and probably had favorable matchups into the counter picks.
@@mariustan9275 So Widow players are winning fights thanks to teamwork then? As far as I know, an average team can easily win if it has good medic and even easier if it has a good engineer. There's nothing one good player can do against a well-positioned sentry, a teleporter around the payload/point, dispenser in place where his teammates falling back when low on resources AND a man with a shotgun running around protecting those buildings. And, of course, Medi-gun to break through/defend the point and just generally give players advantage in fight.
@@NothingMeansNothingButNothing There is actually a lot most classes can do against a sentry. Even Scout, the class weakest to sentries, has a pistol by default to easily kill a sentry. Also Widow being a classical Sniper is an outlier there. Most heroes cannot carry games without a massive skill difference. Also the situation you described sounds like a coordinated team, which is most of the time not the case. Teamwork isn't as emphasized and most of the time no one ever coordinates with everyone. It is possible, it just isn't the main point of the game.
@@tj9287she not bad at all. The devs even said awhile ago she had the highest winrate of support. She just very hard to play and dies help right know is not a good meta for her
The biggest issue with 5v5 in my opinion is how isolated a tank can become. If a tank has one bad game, their team can quickly turn against them. Being the only player designated to a particular role leads to a lot of toxicity for the tank player, and it's painful to witness. I don't think 6v6 would solve this issue, but it was less severe in Overwatch 1.
@@thatoneguyc8312I switched from tank to support, so I know how hard playing tank is, but boy do I get mad (in secret of course) when my tank picks ball
Absolutely. Many times at this point as a tank you make even one mistake someone immediately says "tank sucks gg". If this game had any kind of kick feature it would be abused constantly.
Kind off. The thing about tanks is that they are objectively superior to dps. They can deal damage on a similar level, their higher hp makes them way more difficult to kill compared to 200 hp dps and the biggest thing is their ability to mitigate damage which stacks significantly when you have a rein shield, dva matrix, zar bubble etc. At that point even low healing out put is enough to compensate for the damage received. Though characters like Ana being able to heal as much as they do is not helpful to the situation.
Balance is an issue in Overwatch, and that will never change, however with the 5v5 format, there are inherent issues with trying to balance it compared to the 6v6 format. The issues with 5v5 became apparent very early on in OW2, with tanks basically getting shafted at every turn, DPS becoming rather domineering, and Support not being able to do too much overall. Now, most characters are way too overtuned or in some cases barely touched, leading to the overall balance being an absolute nightmare. Returning to 6v6 wouldn’t fix everything, but it would be a necessary stopgap measure to start fixing things properly, rather than what feels like panic patching resulting in some characters getting unneeded nerfs that buff other characters simply due to the nerf. The biggest issue with OW2 right now is too much damage and healing, adding a second tank and doing nothing else would only make things worse. By readding the 6v6 format, the OW2 dev team would also need to completely rework some heroes (looking at you, Mauga and Orisa) but ultimately the amount of healing supports output would need to be slashed, same goes for overall damage output from the DPS needing to be lowered. There are other issues that need to be addressed, however asides from the big ones like Suzu and Immortality Field needing to be reworked, the others can be dealt with in time.
You make a lot of good points. Nerfing support healing output is tricky because if you do it too much, they’d feel super weak. I feel like you could possibly achieve the same effect by nerfing/eliminating tank health regen and nerfing any of their self healing abilities.
True. The problem with only having 1 tank is that because that 1 tank has to peal for supports, make space, tank damage, take on the other tank, etc they have to be storng enough to do everything. But being strong enough to do everything makes them OP. A single tank now has to do all the jobs 2 tanks previously did, which means they now have to be giga-buffed into the stratsophere so they can do everything but again, they're now OP.
Suzu and Imo have needed a rework from day 1 if you ask me. Just get rid of immortality stuff, replace it with a damage resist and/or reduce the cd. You are 100% on point though on everything you said imo.
I may be a sadist, but I absolutely loved being hunted down as a support in season 1. The constant pressure to keep your team up while keeping the flankers out reminded me of why I fell in love with support in Ow1.
@@KingDanOfBarr I played so much Ana during the beta and season 1. It felt amazing to both have the freedom to make ridiculous plays, and to feel constantly boxed in by dive heros.
The game was made for 6v6 trying to force 5v5 into this format is inevitable that at some point it will collapse and we are seeing it now with more and more people agreeing on the fact that 6v6 was not only more fun and you could have more synergy with your team but it overall had a better ranking system and better progression system and it was overall a balanced game. Like you said if they hadn’t left ow1 to rot and updated it the goats meta or the double shield meta would have never been a problem imo it was always unique for every season to have its own meta it was pretty cool to see what people could come up with, for example I really enjoyed the orisa hog meta thank god it didn’t last as much as goats but in the end it promoted teamwork and I loved that part of the game. In the end I genuinely don’t think they are gonna revert it to 6v6 it’s unfortunate but let’s be real then ow2 wouldn’t even have a reason to exist -_-
The game was also originally made with no hero limits...then no role limits...then role queue. See? It keeps changing. If we wanna be real about it, Overwatch was made to be a casual game that introduced a lot of people to the fps genre but had a competitive mode shoehorned into it.
@@OGEdger you do understand that no limits lasted for like a month right. I do know all the metas that came I know the goats I know double shield I know the three tanks meta I know the three dps meta I know the game was never designed with role queue in mind role queue was just a convenience change to prevent annoying metas. But the game was always, since 2016, designed around 2 tanks 2 dps and 2 supports. The game will just never work in a 5v5 format unless they rework everything (like I said) which is pointless when the old format worked perfectly if not better than this. I love this game I have been playing since ow1 and even I have never reached any of the higher ranks I still can’t stand to watch it get ruined like this. The game clearly doesn’t work is like everyone says “ if your kaiju dies you loose” it is not fun to play and you know that And about the game being casual imo ow is one of the hardest games to play out there competitive didn’t really ruin the game quite the opposite if it wasn’t for comp the game would have never lasted as long as it did
@@Void-Knull the balancing was great what do you mean. The reason why the “balancing” was bad is because they abandoned the game during the double shield meta the double shield meta should have never lasted that long other than that the balancing was great especially when you consider the fact that rein was a playable character and wasn’t getting countered by everyone in the roaster
@@Void-Knullthey literally could've easily fixed shield meta but they didnt want to and instead band aid "fixed" it with 5v5 completely throwing off the balance, 5v5 was aimed to "have less visual clutter" yeah didnt work
@@questionable_live nah, I don't think so, rein Vs ram has been a good matchup even in ow2, with a Zarya or a jq on they're sides it could be even more a beautiful battle
In my opinion, 6v6 is a more interesting format from a theory crafting point of view, but 5v5 is clearly the most enjoyable and watchable format. I think 6v6 created too many comps where every character patched out the other's vulnerability which just made things unbreakable and the problem would have gotten worse as more and more hero released coordination and defensive play got better. While I really enjoyed the tank synergies and I found the game generally a bit more enjoyable for tanks specifically, I think the role was unbalanced by design and was sort of the only fun role, where as supports were safer than in OW2 but leaned toward healboting rather than engaging with the game and DPS were just miserable. The role of a tank is to control space by winning duals in its threat range and for it to feel fun you have to have tanks be quite good at being dps, which lead tanks to be very good general dps counters while being their own counter. As for 5v5, while I don't think the format is perfect and having only one tank clearly makes things less interesting and it can make some games feel not great, I think the overall discussion about tanks feeling bad gas been exaggerated, either focusing on very specific high level situations which had their equivalent in 6v6, and just sustained by tanks players who were frankly awful at positioning and timing, and often took very bad habits of thinking they were invincible, generally lacking patience. I don't think that 6v6 is much more balançable than 5v5 and honestly without the blatantly awful balance change we received every 2 seasons, a lot of Overwatch 2's meta has been quite enjoyable. I especially think about the pre-Ilari meta, the season 9 meta, ... Ps : btw I play tank and really enjoy the role in OW2 so you know
As someone who never played OW1 I’d like for them to at least add a 6v6 mode just so I can see what all the hype was about. I do agree with another tank covering your weaknesses
I prefer 6v6 but honestly it forces more team play and OW PLAYERS don’t want to play like a team they literally removed 2CP cause playing as a team was far to difficult. The fact no one acknowledges this just proves the own community gaslights itself.
2CP was pure ass if you got steam rolled on first point then you were bound to lose second point within a minute due to ult economy. You just had to pray you picked the right heroes to counter the attackers on first point. It was also the game mode with the most draws cuz of its bad design
@@Nahidwin08.16 that’s not at all how most games worked. I’ve recently watched plenty where this doesn’t happen. Don’t take bad memories and act like it ALWAYS was like this. It ALWAYS did however have the least amount of group fights if someone died early then it was stagger season for the whole round that’s what actually happened. Y’all couldn’t play as teammates. Theirs data backing this up THE COMMUNITY is at fault.
2CP was removed due to the up and down pacing of each round. Steamrolling first only to find a full stall team on second and capping after four minutes of OT without losing a fight. Though most maps had this problem. It was most prevelant on 2CP, which made it unbearable.
@@Zartress wait I thought stream rolls were more prevalent in ow2 NOW for this convo all of a sudden it was more of a problem in ow1!? How does everyone change the redirect!?
2CP was break choke simulator 2CP was very defence sided but 1st point had long walks from spawn and 2nd was basically at there door step While Attackers got a little bit of spawn advantage for 1st they had a long walk for 2nd even with a moved spawn room Attackers if they did steam roll 1st tho got the Ults to steam roll 2nd with
I personally prefer 5v5 as the Tank acts as the team leader in a way. In many cases, you want to build your DPS and Supports around the team style that the Tank pick sets in place. There is however, value in duo tanks so you can have offensive tanks without ditching their back line completely. The issue is that also allows the death ball strategy where two tanks can more easy guard a large pile of allies.
Hoge bomen vangen veel wind. Or, in English, high trees catch a lot of wind. As the leader, you have all the responsibility and often times are blamed if you aren't playing "optimally" or at least what your teammates think is optimal. Yes, essentially being the leader is nice, but what about being a leader in a team that doesn't listen and blames you for everything? A lot of the time as tank that happens to me.
Open queue until recently was used mainly for 2-1-2 comps where tank players sick with rq bs can play tank duos (thus making queue times in rq even worse), but now with tankwatch is generally 3 tanks in oq. On the other hand there is also 6v6 custom games with whole community and matchmaking around it, so anyone can try it can see for themselves how it plays.
What devs need to do is to further reduce the effects of CC's & debuffs on tanks and give them some level of counterplay to them. Right now, Orisa and Zarya are the best picks against CC-heavy team comps because Orisa has an ability that literally defends her from CC while Zarya can bubble to not only shield from CC but can also remove her own debuffs. Buff Doom & Ramattra's block to where the initial animation can avoid attack-based CC's like flashbang and sleep dart in a "perfect shield" type of move. Give JQ's shout the same thing where the initial shout can allow her to avoid getting CC'd. On the same note, they should buff Doomfist's powered-up punch, JQ's ult, Rein's charge, and to be able to break & pass through junkrat's trap. If Mauga & Orisa can run through it with their charge/fortify ability, other tanks charge-abilities/ults should be able to do the same. Changing Cassidy's grenade every season isn't the answer to the CC/tank problem.
I just generally dont like what they did to the game. As a genji one trick the hero just doesnt feels as hard and rewarding as earlier. The new hitboxes just feel awful. Whats crazy is how they are adjusting it for the "newer players" but then forget that ow peaked while it was DIFFICULT
Used to play loads of overwatch daily back in 2016-2017, with the occasional playing from 2018-2022 however I have recently come back and atm all the 6v6 / 5v5 thing is happening and tbh I really enjoy 5v5, more so then I did 6v6 on launch day in 2016
6:32 - I actually had a solution back in the day whenever I ran into 5 DPS. It was simple. I go DPS myself, and now it's 6 DPS. Solved the 5 DPS issue every time. 👍👍
One tank created the issue that the games became an absolute mess. No order whatsoever with all responsibility being on the sole tank, who is the only protection the teammates have. The entire game is built around 6 players per team and it shows strongly with 5v5. They had to break the entire tank role, build it over and break it again.
The release of OW2 seemed fresh and exciting not because of 5v5 but because double shield was removed, games were faster, and 2cp was removed. I remember immediately dreading tank role, 5v5 was never good imo. They fixed severe issues with OW2 but created far more. It’s more commonly known now that supports are too strong but this has been an issue since Bap & Brig.
I’m a 5v5 fan over 6v6 but I’ve never played this game at a higher level. I just like how 5v5 feels more free flowing and less cluttered. Dps feels very impactful, tanks are still strong and can carry matches, and supports can even pop off and get more kills. I just like that 5v5 feels more fps like than 6v6 which feels more like league of legends.
Ah, a rare fellow 5v5 enjoyer! I'm also not the highest ranking player (just reached Plat for the very first time) but think I prefer 5v5 for all the reasons you said. Tanks can still definitely carry games, and I like how supports can feel more like battle medics with one less tank to keep topped off. OW2 just has a more aggressive, fast-paced "deathmatch" feel to it.
Might be a hot take here, but I feel like 5v5 can be balanced but only in OQ and not in RQ. You see for the most part OP has been 2-1-2 but then became a 3 tank 2 support, however that can be balanced by reducing the amount of healing overall since healing has been a problem since season 3 of OW1 with the introduction of Ana and the rise of triple tank, as well as reducing the amount of damage dps can do slightly since they've been power creeping too. But if they still want to do RQ as the main mode then 6v6 is just gonna have to be the way to go due to 5v5 RQ being so much more difficult to balance compared to 6v6 RQ where it just needs good balance changes like reducing healing all together since like I said, it's been a problem since season 3. So at the end it depends on what they want to prioritize, if they want to continue doing 5v5 go with OQ, however if they still want to use RQ go with 6v6, that's just how I see it.
@@_.Ok. Unlimited Hero Selection with 12 v 12 for arcade or something similar. It would be fun to play if you think about it. No one will get stress out because one player doesn’t get heavily pressured like 5v5 or 6v6
@@tsuaririndoku I mean I guess it would technically be fun in the way when you're 8 you make a minecraft world to spam TNT everywhere. I don't think it would be an enjoyable gamemode in general but I could see it being fun in a buttonmashy brainless way.
The funny thing is the issue with double shield wasn't the tanks, it was healers like baptiste for example that allowed them to cycle shields unpunished. In the lazy attempt to fix double shield they just removed one tank but WE STILL HAVE THE ISSUE OF BAP BEING TOO STRONG. They simply just fail to understand what the issue of the game is and always try to take the easy way out like they did with 5v5. The switch to 5v5 eventually changed nothing because the healers are still as strong as ever. The only good thing it did achieve was shorter queue times but because the game went f2p at the same time it is way more likely that the game going f2p solved that issue meanwhile it caused the game to become more character dependent forcing you to counterpick way more and buff healers because they now only need to keep 1 tank alive instead of two. 6v6 or 5v5, the format wont change anything unless healers get nerfed. Tank is still going to be the most unpopular role because the healers just undo all their work. I can go on and on, but if they "fix" healers by nerfing them, no ones going to play healer because it's simply the most boring role. By making it the strongest and easiest role people have essentially ignored the fact it's the most boring role.
I hope the majority here agrees that the Brig and Bap hatred it's justified. After all, people call "Double shield" meta what was actually a "Broken AoE healing, Imortality Field, Double shield". They made role queue and then add a damn Tank and 'Ultimate on cooldown' hero to the support role.
Nice video. I've been a tank main since OW1 and honestly think I prefer 5v5 for its more aggressive "deathmatch" feel and decreased visual clutter. Tank honestly doesn't feel too different for me, though I've only just reached Plat and am sure solo tank feels worse the higher rank you are. I'm interested in seeing what the devs do with the 6v6 experiment. I think removing Orisa's shield alone would've made 6v6 feel better, as her high-health low-cooldown shield was the main culprit in the double shield meta.
Loved OW1-I even still have a poster from when I first fell in love with the game. As a Zarya/Mei main from OW1, though, OW2 has been a tough adjustment. I’ve really tried to like it, but the removal of Mei’s freeze and Zarya’s other tank teammate makes it feel like OW2 isn’t designed for players like me. Sure, I still have fun occasionally, but it’s mostly driven by nostalgia. I understand it’s a live-service game, so things are gonna to change, but the shift from OW1 to OW2 has been, for lack of a better words, "not it."
some things Blizzard needs to fix before I side with 6v6 is 1. the number of tank heroes with shields so we don't hop back into double shields. 2. slashing the health of all tanks back down. (imagine two raid bosses with 700+ health) 3. finding a way to rework Mauga and Ram because they will dominate (because they were designed for 5v5)
On the dps feeling better in 5v5 point you made, I'm curious if you've tried the 7HSKW 6v6 custom game mode before because I've honestly found all roles feel pretty impactful. Also small note, the balancing that's been done for that code made it so venture can dash twice underground if you dash right away which feels surprisingly way way better to me than live venture. Hope that goes to the live game one day. I hope that venture isn't too strong and they don't change that (for the custom game I mean, because it get's balance patches a decent bit)
Never actually tried the mode, but definitely seems pretty interesting from what I've seen. I guess with less stuns in ow2 and such may make dps actually feel better than I originally thought for 6v6. Also yeah that venture change seems fun, would be curious to see how it works in the live game.
@@RockSkull i also only just realised since it's actually getting updated fairly frequently, that this custom game is getting better and more frequent updates than overwatch 1 did balance wise at least in my opinion, which is a little funny idk. And yeah fair. The one stun I wish theyd bring back is flashbang with maybe a slightly shorter stun just because i feel like it has such a smooth pacing gameplay wise to watch a cass flashbang and then one tap a tracer. It's a cool dynamic to me. I've found myself changing my opinion slightly on things like oneshots and flashbang, where if it isn't too oppressive, that maybe they aren't so bad since really so many thing's don't feel great to get hit by, oneshots, stuns. Like hanzo one shot may suck sometimes but damn does it feel good to do and it is usually earned well when you get a kill. Bit of a random and only slightly related rant mb. Pretty much if we were to delete things that feel bad to get hit by too much, which to some degree i feel like that has been done, then we end up sacrificing a heroes' fun and identity just to make the game slightly less frustrating. tbf it's situational even with that logic, like brigs stun is gone apart from her ult and thank god for that
@@jimmyjab8744 my only gripe with flashbang isn't even with flashbang just fan the hammer being to consistently good with it I don't like the "shot faster" abilities, they feel spammy and cheap imo
@@Void-Knull heh, im talking about a custom game of 6v6 getting frequent patches tho wdym. Sounds like ur talking bout the game itself not the code im meaning unless im stoopid
I think that the issues with many counters is that they are inherent and not based on play style. For example mei/ symm into genji, the reason that they are good against him isn't because of a way they can be played to deny genji impact, it's because their attacks just ignore deflect and deny part of his kit, something anyone can do, with 0 skill required I think counters should have 50-50 winrates with 0 skill players, only once people begin to understand how specific characters can counter others should counters begin to affect winrates, as before this point a win or loss isn't decided by skill but by character choice, which sucks
i genuinely don’t get it i don’t know why. Double tank with 6v6 was not that enjoyable and it is fine to admit that. As you mentioned, as a dps player I hated playing dps. If you played any niche character ranking up was hell, it was mainly suited for big damage makers. And even as support, it felt like you had less identity as a player back then. Now, game is more fast paced, supports have more to do and are not just “healers”, dps feels impactful. The only thing I do agree with is the boss fight environment especially with the newest updates. I think in the beginning of overwatch 2 it was pretty balanced and I think they can get back to that with 5v5
Personally i like the 5v5 format as ive had a more fun experience than 6v6, going from two tanks who usually just had shields and you would have to wait for one of them to randomly die as you put bullets into them wasn't as exillerating as it was made out to be. Along with that if you saw two tanks on point or payloads you weren't going to contest it as you usually had zero chance of surviving the duo. Meanwhile in 5v5 tanks may be stronger but they are not as immortal as they are made out to be, sometimes its just their supports doing the job and you take out the source the tank can easily be widdled down, along with the fact i have a better chance at contesting points and payloads with only 1 tank at them who i know i can out a dent in.
My thoughs about this is that i really got used of 6v6 and I kinda understand about the change but its just sad for me as a tank player to deal with this issue actually but I wished they can try 6v6 again but I guess they wont sadly :/
i personally miss playing 6v6, as a dva main. If i leave the team to dive enemies, the enemy tank dives my backline too, making it into a race who can kill the supports fastest. If i stay with the team, i should have just switched to something else that works better at staying with the team. I felt super powerful in ow1 as an off tank but in ow2 i am super stressed instead of having fun. I have stayed away from roleq and i have only been playing openq so i could play with the possibility of having at least an other tank on my team
One issue with 6v6 would be queue times. The vast majority of the playerbase pkays dps, then support, then even after the megabiff tank has the shortest queue time since no one os playing it. That was actually one of the reasons they stated with the ow2 release. DPS players were whining about 20 and 30 minute queue times but wouldn't play tank or support.
I didn’t anyone mentioning it but the main for the tank delete is dps and healers ratio to the tank. It’s like 2.5 to 1, there are not a lot of tank players and deleting two tanks helps with queue.
6v6 wont work with roleQ. Nobody will Q tank. If players want 6v6 they gotta accept roleQ. I quitted OW1 when they introduced roleQ bcs i wasnt ok with it that devs chose how we played. Let people decide how they wanna play and the meta will adapt
the part about support is so true. The lesson should have been learned back in early ow2 hog meta but nope we got super support power creep causing the awful s5 s6 s7 dps support meta
Iv always been a somewhat casual to ow but in a weird way I do miss the 6v6 I’m a healer main so I always felt a sense of pride trying my hardest to keep everyone alive. Now in the 5v5 half the time you basically gotta worry about your 1 tank if your dps players suck. But that’s more of a my issue as a solo player but still idk I miss the chaos
I only played tank in OW1 when nobody wanted to switch or just to queue a game quickly so I don’t really care either way lol but I’ve definitely enjoyed playing support more in OW2
As a support player since overwatch release this is my opinion on the idea of 6v6 compared to 5v5. I do believe that the queue times are way better than it was prior, I remember sometimes it would take me 15 minutes for 1 game. While the double shield meta was seemingly strong, I do believe the main focus of it being so strong is the supports that can basically knockoff anyone from going near or allowing your team to output major damage. (Examples of this is Baptiste, Brigitte, Ana) With the release of Mauga, I do believe the double shield meta wont be as stressful as it was prior. As you stated, that the burden of being a solo tank is too much, which causes some tanks to be undermined or less utilized. Counterpicking is a huge major thing due to the solo tank, whereas double tank counter picking had less burden as the second tank could support the other tank. It’s why majority support players or tank players do feel that they aren’t getting healed, there is just too much damage for you yourself to soak up. Whenever I attempt to play tank, I do see the frustrations that tank players do get mad about. I do believe that in theory it would be nice to make a separate queue for people who want to play 6v6 or 5v5 but it would make queue times even longer. I believe that Overwatch should attempt one of those things that customize quickplay such as the current HACKED :passives event as of right now, with the current patches made for Overwatch 2 and see how people may enjoy or dislike it.
they could keep 6v6 as a default mode for open queue ngl, since tanks hp's are already weak and if players go 2 tanks and 2 dps, that leaves only 1 support as a spot for the team to play as and same goes for 2 support and 2 tanks leading to only 1 dps
In OW1 you were forced to play a tank you dont like because of your team comp. In OW2 you are forced to play a tank you dont like because of the enemy team comp. As long as your other tank works with you in 6v6, its real fun... unless the meta tanks suck. As long as the other team doesnt swap to 3 counters and your team picks 2 compatable supports in 5v5, its probably kinda fun... unless the meta tanks suck.
The big thing about 6v6 is that you need to reintroduce a lot of CC It was there for a reason, and without it tanks would just run wild. The limiting factor for tanks is usually either their range or their mobility, which CC helps you exploit by keeping them away from you. If you have 2 tanks on the field coming at you and no way to stop their march forward, then it's not gonna be very fun for anyone.
6v6 glazers seem to forget how shit the balance has always been... like I hate using the overused 'rose-tinted glasses' point, but the more I debate this topic the more truth I see in it
@Void-Knull Yeah, balance was always bad and metas were always pretty hard pressed There is just no balancing a game like Overwatch, especially if it just gets new characters added forever with each one screwing up the balance further
i remember the old day open queue with 5 DPS , i beg 1 of them to change either tank or healer, i will fill in another role. however, all ignore me until lossing the game, then one of them change widow or mei to block other player. i prefer 6v6 when ow2 launch, but i will prefer 5v5 now. spending time to breaking double shield is bore. queue time improve too.
I’ve been kind of a proponent of 5v5. 6v6 was too open for a lot of the more broken metas. I feel like 5v5 is just better overall and easier to balance from a full team perspective…most of the time. That said though, with the recent tank buffs, I’d rather have 6v6 than giga-buffed raid boss tanks lol. So that gave me some new perspective. I think 6v6 could potentially work again, but they’d need to rework some of the tanks to allow it to be healthier. Mostly nerfing tank shields across the board or giving tanks other defensive abilities that don’t involve large shields. With Orisa not having one anymore at all, double shield meta wouldn’t be as prevalent but it would still be a problem in 6v6 today. 5v5 definitely isn’t perfect though. I guess maybe I’d like to see them try 6v6 once again with some tank tunings to see how it played out.
As someone who played mainly support the biggest difference was, if you can kill and hold your own it wasn’t a bad change but the ones that can’t fight just got completely dunked on. with characters I was still getting used to on support I would just not be helpful until I could kill
I definitely think there is a way to balance 5v5 properly. Tank is a role that has to deal with a lot of pressure with being so easy to deal damage to. When one tank got removed it became more pressure on tanks. To make 5v5 work they need to remove pressure from tanks by making them tankier and making them deal less damage. By doing this tanks become less rewarding to deal damage to thus removing some pressure from tanks. The game probably wouldn't be balanced if we take back 6v6 the same way it isn't balanced now. Maybe balancing 5v5 is even faster than balancing 6v6 again. One extra tank would maybe be good for counter swapping to cover up for the other tanks weaknesses, but i think that the other roles could help cover up for the tanks weaknesses if pressure is removed from the tank. They could also rework some tanks to make them cover up for their own weaknesses. I think this poor balance is because the devs aren't balancing 5v5 properly and not because having one less tank is a bad concept.
so you would be taking agency from tank players, making them the press q role, and boring AF to kill, slowing the pacing of the game to the point where there is no reason for anybody to play tank or try and interact with the tank player other than avoiding them like the plague making Q times even higher becouse nobody on their right state of mind would want to play as tank since they just sit down and relax while they watch everone else do cool stuff. Sorry I don't see how this would be good
@@wachinchonchan Adding a second tank would slow the game more than making the existing tank tankier. If you have a problem with the game becoming slower then you shouldn't support 6v6. I personally feel like people fucus tanks to much in the current meta. Making tanks more "boring" to kill could be a solution to this. Tank is supposed to be a passive role. If you think it's "boring" to not be able to deal loads of damage you should play dps. Tanks are mainly supposed to create safety for and take attention from the rest of the team.
Why not just have 6v6 with tanks doing less damage? It's not fun when you can't do anything and tank players deserve to have fun too. With a second tank and lowered damage you have a partner to share the load and you can actually play the game. Also this prevents supports needing to be buffed to help the tank. Gigabuffed supports were also an issue and just made it more annoying because healing was too high. Which made damage needing to be higher. This was also a problem because now we are in a situation where either nothing dies or you die if you don't play perfect due to the damage and healing numbers getting out of control. All the while health numbers slowly getting higher little by little. Most of these issues could be avoided if we had a second tank. As for double shields. 1) the orisa rework would have help alot. 2) nerfing aoe healing and nerfing abilities like immortality field and suzu into the dirt (specifically sustain abilities that are too strong) will actually kill that comp. 3) for people that say "Checkmate what about Ram?" I say IF it's an issue lower the time that his barrier can be up. Unlike OW1 Orisa, Rams' barrier has a short time it can be up and can't be cycled due to its high cooldown. Overwatch is at its worst when you feel like you can't do anything. This has been proven in the past with stun abilities, strong sustain abilities, and high healing being some of the biggest complaints.
@@quad7778 Increasing the survivability of tanks would solve the problems as much as adding a second tank. Tanks wouldn't need to share the load if one tank could handle the load itself. This could also be an alternative to increasing healing. If tanks have trouble surviving then tanks should be buffed instead of support. This will avoid the problems you just mentioned. This may also solve the issue of not being able to do anything. Right now tanks are kind of limited because it's so risky engage. Increase tank survivability to solve that. I'm not saying that they should nerf tank damage a lot. I'm just saying that it might be necessary to compensate if they make tanks tankier. Even if this makes tanks weak when it comes to damage, there is another role dedicated to dealing damage which means it not that important for tanks to deal a lot of damage. I agree with you on the double shield thing. It could've easily been fixed with proper balancing just like 5v5 can.
@mccrasyboy2786 Idk, the idea looks great on paper but it really comes down to how those buffs would be executed. Can we trust the devs to make tanks tankier without making them feel oppressive to deal with. Personally, I would rather deal with 2 weaker tanks that I can kill than one wall that I feel like I can't kill. It's like with two tanks the healers have to divide their healing more, and tank cooldowns/abilities will be lowered due to having two tanks. I want to feel like I am able to kill one rather than just feel like I'm being forced to stop playing because dva eats all my shots throughout the game. At that point, I would counter swap to something that dunks on the tank just to have fun again, but is that really a good thing... Because for the tank, that is really frustrating to deal with when the enemy team is able to counter swap you into the dirt. Counter swapping could be mitigated with two tanks. Idk it feels like adding that second tank could fix so many more issues without causing the game to feel stagnant. Numbers would be generally lowered, more team coordination would be needed, counter picks would be less prevalent, tanks would be killable since the healing would be more divided, and the list goes on. It feels like we got to a burnout point way quicker than in Overwatch 1, but is that fair to say since Overwatch 1 had less hero's needing to be balanced. The final decision really goes to the devs though and we just have to deal with whatever they decide to do.
I feel that DPS not feeling as good in 6v6 will he helped drastically by the role passives. Having the Heal reduction give them a sense of purpose and to be honest I feel that Tanks and Supports should ALWAYS deal less damage then a DPS looking at Zen, Bap, Mauga, & Roadhog. I feel those as well as a change to either how many non-personal barriers can be on a Team or how their HP is determined would be enough to make 6v6 feel better in the immediate future. Long term they will have to REALLY think through what CC abilities they allow and where they allow them.
I'd love to have dubble tank back. Tank has been one of my main roles since early overwatch 1 and I can say it was a lot more fun going two tanks. Also if you don't counter pick you can basically not do anything. I can't play the characters I want to because I will get counterpicked and destroyed. Kind of have to pick a counter to the other tank or we lose.
If hardware became good enough I'd be very interested in the possibility of 7v7 to help the dps queues while not putting too much on any one given player to perform
now that it's 5v5 i feel like tanks is just a DPS with more HP i keep seeing tanks run off to flank or get left alone to 1 v 4 what i mean to say is i feel like Tanks are playing more like DPS then Tanks aka Doom fist but now as rein i mean all that new tanks are like DPS Junker Queen Mauga even Ram just goes star platinum mode but yeah maybe that's just me that feels that way
Honestly no matter what they say for the 6v6 dev blog I'm happy. 1) Bringing back 6v6 is going to fix the game if they put the work in. 2) If they are doing a semi trial thing then everyone is going to realize 6v6 is better as long as the devs actually give it a fair chance. 3) If they aren't bringing back 6v6 then I don't have to waste my time and energy on a sunk ship. I have spent so long loving/hating this game and I'm getting pretty close to neither and instead to apathy.
As a casual player, I lost interest in the game after they introduced 5v5 because I played a lot of secondary/off tank and didn't want to always be the main tank. If they brought back 6v6 I'd likely give the game a look again. I did like introduction of role que and only allowing one of each hero per team though, those were actually good changes.
Miss og anna, being a rein main it was the best to just speed through wacking everyone like the massive man in even more massive armor carrying a pick up truck for a hammer that rein is
Balance is the main problem Overwatch has had since the beginning. Fact of the matter is, it’s not possible to balance 5v5 role queue, but 6v6 can be balanced with the right changes They said 6v6 is just nostalgia pandering bs, and if that’s true they should put their money where their mouth is and prove it. Take the custom game code and put it for arcade and I bet nobody would want to go back
Yeah arcade isn't role lock It needs to be in QP where everyone can see that it's an option with role q then they can decide if the queues matter that much or of they like 1 format over the other
i used to play a lot of off-tank in ow1 and now it feels a bit unplayable, especially for lower skill players. Lucio was also a top pick of mine but now because he has less protection you almost have to mix healing with dps
I would just prefer that roles are pick after getting in on a match, having 3 separates waiting lines makes entering on matches so slow, and is not something they can't do, in the community gamemode this format was a thing and waiting times where cero also being able to switch roles mid match so if mi friend has to many problems whit his role i can replace him for flexibility
The song is called "Answering The Call" by Adam Burgess, the bit I used is right at the beginning of the song :) The only time I remember them using it officially was for that "Protector" animated short they released on their Japanese channel.
I feel like a lot of people against 6v6 use the metas as their argument a lot, whereas the real only arguments against the format itself I've heard a genuine argument about is that queue times are shorter across the board due to having 1 less tank on each team. While I feel that this is a valid point, I believe that the game should strive to be as good as it possibly could be, and I feel that 6v6 was more balanced and more structured than 5v5 ever can be. The appeal of Overwatch as opposed to other shooters is the team play, and removing a teammate inherently removes team play, which goes against the original design philosophy of Overwatch. I have many arguments against 5v5 as a format compared to 6v6, citing every meta that we've had in Overwatch 2 as an example of this. When the game came out, Dva, Zarya, and Winston were the big 3 tanks, and most people defaulted to Zarya. To fix this issue, let's look at ways to check Zarya. A great example is Reinhardt being able to keep a shield in Zarya's face, preventing her from doing damage. Now, if the game was 6v6 at the time, Zarya wouldn't have been a problem, as Rein and Winston check her, and you would just run one of those tanks to check it, while also having a Zarya of Dva of your own. Next meta I believe was the Hog Meta because his hook was too strong in a 5v5 environment. As a fix, what if your team just had a Dva or Orisa in addition to their other tank with the express purpose of keeping their Hog in check, which would have solved the problem. Next was the Orisa Meta, which resulted due to Orisa being too difficult to kill, but if there were a 6th player in the mix, it would substantially change the dynamic of Orisa and she would not be nearly as polarizing (in theory). Admittedly, this meta may have been much different if the game was 6v6, and Orisa probably would have still been too powerful. Next I remember the meta being Bastion rush, which required that the tank play Sigma so that the bastion didn't murder him, but if there were a second tank in the mix, a team could dedicate a Dva, Orisa, or Sigma to help absorbing the bastion while the other tank was able to actually play the game. Next Meta was Ram rush... 6v6 wouldn't have changed this meta at all to be frank. Next meta was a rotation of Mauga, Hog, and Orisa being powerful, and both Hog and Mauga are hard countered by Dva, which would have created a much more dynamic meta. Currently we're in a meta where teams either run Sig, Ram, or Monkey, and a second tank won't change the current meta much. In addition to metas being fixed by a second tank most of the time, in 5v5, counterswapping is way too powerful, and did anyone notice that counterswapping wasn't a huge issue in Overwatch 1? That's because the second tank could cover the weaknesses of the first tank, preventing an entire team from making the tank's life miserable with a simple swap. I could give examples of this, but this comment is much too long now. I have always been, and will continue to be, a 6v6 supporter until the developers can make 5v5 an objective better experience than 6v6, which I don't believe is possible.
@@darkdragon072 The song is called "Answering The call" by Adam Burgess, the bit I used is right at the beginning! Also sorry for the late response, yt never gives me notis for replies lol
8:11 but they should've nerfed the supports that did that lol (like you said the game was left to rot) 8:12 but with one less tank in the way, they've had to just flat out nerf DPS characters numbers, soldier went down like 3 whole damage per bullet or something, genji shurikens went from 29 to 27, reaper got -1 damage per pellet, etc. And then s9 health changes lmao, the TTK is so much longer now, also random side note ult charge is WAYYY slower nowadays than it used to be, ow2 nerfed all ult charge globally by around 10%, and then again in season 9.
6v6 and role queue cannot go together. its never going to work. the queue times will be insane and role queue is like a crutch for the shitty dps role. if it goes back to 6v6, it needs to be open and the game needs to be balanced appropriately. role queue can only work with 5v5.
I don't think it really matters which one is better than the other, but losing the option to play 6v6 instead of 5v5 is overall stupid. Being pigeon-holed into one format doesn't feel good, ever, especially if there was a heavily enjoyed format that was replaced by one that's less enjoyed.
I think what bothers me the most is the fact that the dev team has split the ow community right down the middle. You have 5v5ers saying that 6v6ers are just seeing things through rose tinted glasses and you have 6v6ers calling 5v5ers delusional. As much as I personally want 6v6 to come back I know thats probably not the case and truthfully, I'll be fine with it because I know I can finally let the game go. Great video by the by!
I find you saying that dps feels better in ow2 pretty shocking ngl. After making tanks raid bosses due to 5v5, in the situations where you have no other option but to focus tank, it just feels like shooting a brick wall. In 6v6, tank players also had to worry more about over extending because while they had some good defensive kit and health for survivability, a dps was still a big threat to them. That made the dps role feel much better than it does now. Good video!
You know too well that tanks needed to either be raid bosses that fight eachother or they would stay in spawn all game because they explode due to all the focusing that happened before the megabuff.
@@charliemiller4577 Thanks for the kind words! For me dps in 6v6 was always rough because of just how slow the game was. With 2 tanks on the battlefield things really slow down and it makes it really hard to do things like flank/dive the backline due to the 2nd tank often peeling. I will say with less stuns+shooting into shields probably being less prevalent with ow2 might make it feel better.
@@arakemi1080 well isn’t that the inherit problem with the single tank format? I think that making the tanks super buffed, while being the only option for making them feel good now, has hurt every role in terms of enjoyment.
@@charliemiller4577 blizzard being blizzard, and seeing how the team looks nowadays, i can see WHY they aren't changing back to 6v6. a certain group of people just doesn't want to admit they did something wrong.
A reminder again to please be kind and respectful when debating on this topic, no need to be at each others throats for a goofy video game. Thank you :)
(Director's Take Summary edit) - The 6v6 Director's Take is out as of today 7/25/2024. It basically goes into the history of all the format changes they did to overwatch, (similar to what I do here) but obviously adds a bit more detail from their perspective. Aaron also adds at the end they are open to testing out 6v6 and other format changes in quick play hacked. Can read it all yourself here - overwatch.blizzard.com/en-us/news/24104605/?fbclid=PAZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAaaOK3_7fO3cVAyEMUv8XnUmSThYAzllmYxV0IZYD9U15Al-CoE0Zs0FDk0_aem_l_MIdrZj--kE5WsbnoNvcA
My Opinion - I think Aaron actually did a pretty good job with this, being very open about things and taking points in from both sides. He never outright says 6v6 or 5v5 is better, just mentions points from both sides and their perspective overtime. I also of course love the fact he said they are willing to test major format changes like 6v6 in the Quick Play hacked instead of just putting it in the game outright (as ya boi suggested). Again overall very pleased with this and how open he was to us about it. If the dev team continues to be this open about things and listening to the community, I have high hopes about the future :)
On a serious note, why not give us both options? Let the players choose. Like is it not that simple?
I disagree with your point on how dps was worse in ow1... Everyone had less hp, hanzo can 1 shot, dragon blade felt good, things were killable.
6v6 is real overwatch
5v5 is a scam to sell F2P to kids
Hell no I’m not being nice. Everyone with half a brain said for the last 2 years of OW1 that 5v5 couldn’t work. Then the pros said it. But the Devs ignored the best and most knowledgeable players on the planet on every continent, and implemented it anyway. We’ve been screaming about it since OW2 dropped. Everything that plagued OW1 is not only present in OW2, but it’s significantly worse XD. Hills became mountains. We have every hero massively over tweaked, the hyper mobility creep, these weird ass passive creeps, “DPS feels better” said NO DPS PLAYER EVER. You just shoot and shoot and nothing dies because supports outheal damage, and then supports have a get out of jail free card. Teleport, Suzu, Immortality, Fade, like what?
Not to mention the skill ceiling falling so low I bet my 2 year old could place diamond, because bullets are the size of softballs and projectiles are literally barrels now. Not to include the “play for you” creep. Illari Pylon is insane, the new hero just has auto locking bullets and missiles? None of these new heroes feel like the original lineup. We went from McCree with a flash and quick load, and if you messed it up you were dead. To Venture who is invulnerable underground, jumps up and takes like half a swishes health bar, and 2 shots. And if she messes it up, she gets bap immortality field and when you shoot that and almost kill her she gets suzued, and when you almost kill her again her underground ability is off cool down and you’re back to square 1.
Which, also, double shield was not a problem until bap got released. Immortality and invulnerability was the first sign this game was shit. That’s what made it terrible. We went from high skill heroes, where mistakes and bad positioning left you dead. To, go and do whatever you want, drop 30k damage for 8 kills, and be invulnerable for half the game. I’m not going to be nice about it, these devs are insane. And this community is full of morons. Being nice about everything is what got us here ein the first place. For half a goddamn decade, it was “trust the devs” “just be patient” “let them cook”, and now look? The game is awful, because everyone was walking on eggshells in the first place. Dies anyone actually hop on and go, man I really love this game, this game is the best it’s ever been. No. Not a soul does that, except for the handful of streamers who have to stay relevant 👀 Flats. Who thirsted for Fran so hard she stopped playing altogether essentially.
Not to mention the identity politics creep. Tracer, lesbian, cool. 76, gay, cool. Widowmaker, husband slayer cool. Like it or not, identity politics is notoriously a killer. Because it gies from established lore to pandering. It nearly killed off the MCU altogether. Fuck man. Delete everything and bring back 2018 Overwatch we can move forward from there.
@@Twizzzums yes
can't wait for overwatch 6 where people just 1v1 for the win
They will stand in spawn waiting to see what the other guy’s gonna pick. They gonna draw every game. Lmfao😂
Don’t worry we are already headed that way because tanks are The only two players that matter in a match
I can’t wait until overwatch 7 when you give Activision money and you spin a wheel to see if you win or lose
@@charliemiller4577Nah, just go full headshot sweat on widow.
The tank will have to counter you, not your tank.
Nah 0v0 is more suitable. It actually quite balanced.
Orisa's rework alone would've fixed the double barrier meta dilemma.
you'd now play ramattra+sigma and it would be the same
@@valentinafuffa535 Ramattra's barrier isn't as impactful as orisa's so it wouldn't be that bad.
@@batjope23 how is it not?
@@RyeCA orisa's barrier had longer duration and lower cooldown whereas ramattra's has shorter duration and higher cooldown.
@@valentinafuffa535 Bro, you can't be serious with this statement
As someone who mained off tank in ow 1, ow2 feels horrible to play
I played nothing but tank and support in OW1 since season 3. I could only stand OW2 for a season and a half and have never played since.
Dva main here, I hate main tanking now
I miss offtank zarya so much
Rein Zarya combo will forever be missed
@@jacobsterling9330 what's different?
While balance is a big Issue, for me I used to be an off-tank player, and I really enjoyed the playstyle of enable my tank/ dps and peel for my supports, now I'm forced to just play main tank and I don't enjoy it, I don't wanna use 2 bubbles on myself but I have to or I get way less value and give up so much space. Its like if the removed a support and now Lucio, Brig, and Mercy either got reworks that change their entire playstyle to fit the flex support playstyle or they become giga buffed and now Lucio makes everyone go faster that wrecking ball. It may be a similar experience for everyone else if they buff/rework every support but the support players would hate the game, We joke about reddit Lucio's, but now they don't get to play how they wanted to or they are literally throwing, they don't have fun anymore
@@Jagora_ Yeah I honestly agree. It feels like the devs trying to fit the off-tanks in ow2 made them lose their identities a bit.
Used to like playing Genji but the nerfs made it so you had to be on adrenal to get any value
@@teamhunter730 that’s a balance issue, not a hero identity issue
I'm exactly the same. I played OW1 since the beta and I always absolutely adored playing off tank. It was my favorite role for years but as soon as OW2 came out; I'm stuck playing a weird game of rock paper scissors against the other tank 💀. Heaven forbid you win the first team fight because the entire team counterswaps and still retains all of their ult charge.
The last couple of seasons had me completely drop the game which is weird for me of all people lol.
Counter picking the tank in OW2 feels like 3-5 players bullying one player. If you tried that in OW1 at least you’d have another tank who probably wasn’t countered and probably had favorable matchups into the counter picks.
This deadass is why team fortress 2 is still playable. Counterpicking doesn’t kill the enjoyment of the game.
@@Random-ps4dl Other than the fact that teamwork isn't as emphasized in that game, despite the name. Solo players with enough skill can stomp a pub.
@@mariustan9275 So Widow players are winning fights thanks to teamwork then? As far as I know, an average team can easily win if it has good medic and even easier if it has a good engineer. There's nothing one good player can do against a well-positioned sentry, a teleporter around the payload/point, dispenser in place where his teammates falling back when low on resources AND a man with a shotgun running around protecting those buildings. And, of course, Medi-gun to break through/defend the point and just generally give players advantage in fight.
@@NothingMeansNothingButNothing There is actually a lot most classes can do against a sentry. Even Scout, the class weakest to sentries, has a pistol by default to easily kill a sentry. Also Widow being a classical Sniper is an outlier there. Most heroes cannot carry games without a massive skill difference. Also the situation you described sounds like a coordinated team, which is most of the time not the case. Teamwork isn't as emphasized and most of the time no one ever coordinates with everyone. It is possible, it just isn't the main point of the game.
4:50 proceeds to add three of the most cluttery and distracting ults in a row
They all are tbh except Illari. Kiri, jq, Mauga, lw.
@@BigMamaBlack you think kiri and mauga dont have clutterly ults???
@@YeCurry0 Mauga's ult aint cluttery by itself, its more his debuff that clutters the screen.
Kiri's ult is KINDA cluttery but its manageable.
@@YeCurry0 no they do have clutter ults. I used a period.
@@BigMamaBlack oh mb
Not to mention brig/bap was the raid boss supps who could ruin your day by just existing
I forgot Brig was even a hero still, you never see her being played she’s that bad now
@@tj9287 she's not bad lol, just not insane free easy afk and get value + easy to hit stun lol
@@tj9287she not bad at all. The devs even said awhile ago she had the highest winrate of support. She just very hard to play and dies help right know is not a good meta for her
and still are
The biggest issue with 5v5 in my opinion is how isolated a tank can become. If a tank has one bad game, their team can quickly turn against them.
Being the only player designated to a particular role leads to a lot of toxicity for the tank player, and it's painful to witness. I don't think 6v6 would solve this issue, but it was less severe in Overwatch 1.
I like playing tank but avoid it like the plague because I know if I have a bad game my team is gonna turn on me.
There is also the lack of diversity, counter swaping, loss of tank skill gap and expression, and hate for not picking a main tank.
@@thatoneguyc8312I switched from tank to support, so I know how hard playing tank is, but boy do I get mad (in secret of course) when my tank picks ball
I just want to play with my friends. We are a group of 6 friends. If they bring back 6v6 we can finally play together
Absolutely. Many times at this point as a tank you make even one mistake someone immediately says "tank sucks gg". If this game had any kind of kick feature it would be abused constantly.
Its almost like triple tank being meta is an issue with healers not with the tanks by themselves
Kind off. The thing about tanks is that they are objectively superior to dps. They can deal damage on a similar level, their higher hp makes them way more difficult to kill compared to 200 hp dps and the biggest thing is their ability to mitigate damage which stacks significantly when you have a rein shield, dva matrix, zar bubble etc. At that point even low healing out put is enough to compensate for the damage received. Though characters like Ana being able to heal as much as they do is not helpful to the situation.
Balance is an issue in Overwatch, and that will never change, however with the 5v5 format, there are inherent issues with trying to balance it compared to the 6v6 format. The issues with 5v5 became apparent very early on in OW2, with tanks basically getting shafted at every turn, DPS becoming rather domineering, and Support not being able to do too much overall. Now, most characters are way too overtuned or in some cases barely touched, leading to the overall balance being an absolute nightmare. Returning to 6v6 wouldn’t fix everything, but it would be a necessary stopgap measure to start fixing things properly, rather than what feels like panic patching resulting in some characters getting unneeded nerfs that buff other characters simply due to the nerf.
The biggest issue with OW2 right now is too much damage and healing, adding a second tank and doing nothing else would only make things worse. By readding the 6v6 format, the OW2 dev team would also need to completely rework some heroes (looking at you, Mauga and Orisa) but ultimately the amount of healing supports output would need to be slashed, same goes for overall damage output from the DPS needing to be lowered. There are other issues that need to be addressed, however asides from the big ones like Suzu and Immortality Field needing to be reworked, the others can be dealt with in time.
I've been trying to say this for so long lmao, thank u you for finally putting this into words.
You make a lot of good points. Nerfing support healing output is tricky because if you do it too much, they’d feel super weak. I feel like you could possibly achieve the same effect by nerfing/eliminating tank health regen and nerfing any of their self healing abilities.
True. The problem with only having 1 tank is that because that 1 tank has to peal for supports, make space, tank damage, take on the other tank, etc they have to be storng enough to do everything. But being strong enough to do everything makes them OP. A single tank now has to do all the jobs 2 tanks previously did, which means they now have to be giga-buffed into the stratsophere so they can do everything but again, they're now OP.
Suzu and Imo have needed a rework from day 1 if you ask me. Just get rid of immortality stuff, replace it with a damage resist and/or reduce the cd.
You are 100% on point though on everything you said imo.
@@grandmasteryado8478 True.
I may be a sadist, but I absolutely loved being hunted down as a support in season 1. The constant pressure to keep your team up while keeping the flankers out reminded me of why I fell in love with support in Ow1.
True season 1 felt so good and skillful to play even if kiri was gigabusted, you still had tracer and genji hunting your ass down.
@@KingDanOfBarr I played so much Ana during the beta and season 1. It felt amazing to both have the freedom to make ridiculous plays, and to feel constantly boxed in by dive heros.
@@S0UPIE is this sarcasm?
No, It was genuinely fun untill sojourn started 1 shooting me from across the map
The game was made for 6v6 trying to force 5v5 into this format is inevitable that at some point it will collapse and we are seeing it now with more and more people agreeing on the fact that 6v6 was not only more fun and you could have more synergy with your team but it overall had a better ranking system and better progression system and it was overall a balanced game. Like you said if they hadn’t left ow1 to rot and updated it the goats meta or the double shield meta would have never been a problem imo it was always unique for every season to have its own meta it was pretty cool to see what people could come up with, for example I really enjoyed the orisa hog meta thank god it didn’t last as much as goats but in the end it promoted teamwork and I loved that part of the game. In the end I genuinely don’t think they are gonna revert it to 6v6 it’s unfortunate but let’s be real then ow2 wouldn’t even have a reason to exist -_-
The game was also originally made with no hero limits...then no role limits...then role queue. See? It keeps changing.
If we wanna be real about it, Overwatch was made to be a casual game that introduced a lot of people to the fps genre but had a competitive mode shoehorned into it.
@@OGEdger you do understand that no limits lasted for like a month right. I do know all the metas that came I know the goats I know double shield I know the three tanks meta I know the three dps meta I know the game was never designed with role queue in mind role queue was just a convenience change to prevent annoying metas. But the game was always, since 2016, designed around 2 tanks 2 dps and 2 supports. The game will just never work in a 5v5 format unless they rework everything (like I said) which is pointless when the old format worked perfectly if not better than this. I love this game I have been playing since ow1 and even I have never reached any of the higher ranks I still can’t stand to watch it get ruined like this. The game clearly doesn’t work is like everyone says “ if your kaiju dies you loose” it is not fun to play and you know that
And about the game being casual imo ow is one of the hardest games to play out there competitive didn’t really ruin the game quite the opposite if it wasn’t for comp the game would have never lasted as long as it did
"the game was made for 6v6!"
that must be why the balance was so much better back then, and totally not even worse than it currently is /s
@@Void-Knull the balancing was great what do you mean. The reason why the “balancing” was bad is because they abandoned the game during the double shield meta the double shield meta should have never lasted that long other than that the balancing was great especially when you consider the fact that rein was a playable character and wasn’t getting countered by everyone in the roaster
@@Void-Knullthey literally could've easily fixed shield meta but they didnt want to and instead band aid "fixed" it with 5v5 completely throwing off the balance, 5v5 was aimed to "have less visual clutter" yeah didnt work
The introduction of role queue was the beginning of the end.
6v6 was better because riffing off the chemistry I built with my regular tank buddy was one of the most satisfying feelings I've ever had in gaming.
as a ramattra player, as long as ramattra will stay atleast okey pick i am happy
Imagine play ramattra with a Zara or a junker queen to help you, especially while you're not in nemesis form
@@Jack06121995 yeah except that kills Rein/Zarya the new tanks weren't made for 6v6
@@questionable_live nah, I don't think so, rein Vs ram has been a good matchup even in ow2, with a Zarya or a jq on they're sides it could be even more a beautiful battle
In my opinion, 6v6 is a more interesting format from a theory crafting point of view, but 5v5 is clearly the most enjoyable and watchable format.
I think 6v6 created too many comps where every character patched out the other's vulnerability which just made things unbreakable and the problem would have gotten worse as more and more hero released coordination and defensive play got better. While I really enjoyed the tank synergies and I found the game generally a bit more enjoyable for tanks specifically, I think the role was unbalanced by design and was sort of the only fun role, where as supports were safer than in OW2 but leaned toward healboting rather than engaging with the game and DPS were just miserable. The role of a tank is to control space by winning duals in its threat range and for it to feel fun you have to have tanks be quite good at being dps, which lead tanks to be very good general dps counters while being their own counter.
As for 5v5, while I don't think the format is perfect and having only one tank clearly makes things less interesting and it can make some games feel not great, I think the overall discussion about tanks feeling bad gas been exaggerated, either focusing on very specific high level situations which had their equivalent in 6v6, and just sustained by tanks players who were frankly awful at positioning and timing, and often took very bad habits of thinking they were invincible, generally lacking patience. I don't think that 6v6 is much more balançable than 5v5 and honestly without the blatantly awful balance change we received every 2 seasons, a lot of Overwatch 2's meta has been quite enjoyable. I especially think about the pre-Ilari meta, the season 9 meta, ...
Ps : btw I play tank and really enjoy the role in OW2 so you know
Fair point, however I can no longer play roadhog so bring back 6v6
As someone who never played OW1 I’d like for them to at least add a 6v6 mode just so I can see what all the hype was about. I do agree with another tank covering your weaknesses
you're really not missing anything of value though
@@Void-Knullyes the fuck he is 😂, there’s a custom game of 6v6 I played and the game is night and day and genuinely enjoyable
I feel bad you missed it, it was the best.
@@Void-Knull Even if it sucks let's just see it.
I prefer 6v6 but honestly it forces more team play and OW PLAYERS don’t want to play like a team they literally removed 2CP cause playing as a team was far to difficult. The fact no one acknowledges this just proves the own community gaslights itself.
2CP was pure ass if you got steam rolled on first point then you were bound to lose second point within a minute due to ult economy. You just had to pray you picked the right heroes to counter the attackers on first point. It was also the game mode with the most draws cuz of its bad design
@@Nahidwin08.16 that’s not at all how most games worked. I’ve recently watched plenty where this doesn’t happen. Don’t take bad memories and act like it ALWAYS was like this. It ALWAYS did however have the least amount of group fights if someone died early then it was stagger season for the whole round that’s what actually happened. Y’all couldn’t play as teammates. Theirs data backing this up THE COMMUNITY is at fault.
2CP was removed due to the up and down pacing of each round. Steamrolling first only to find a full stall team on second and capping after four minutes of OT without losing a fight. Though most maps had this problem. It was most prevelant on 2CP, which made it unbearable.
@@Zartress wait I thought stream rolls were more prevalent in ow2 NOW for this convo all of a sudden it was more of a problem in ow1!? How does everyone change the redirect!?
2CP was break choke simulator
2CP was very defence sided but 1st point had long walks from spawn and 2nd was basically at there door step
While Attackers got a little bit of spawn advantage for 1st they had a long walk for 2nd even with a moved spawn room
Attackers if they did steam roll 1st tho got the Ults to steam roll 2nd with
Overwatch 2 still has a gamemode that has no hero lock called No Limits.
Well yh
I personally prefer 5v5 as the Tank acts as the team leader in a way. In many cases, you want to build your DPS and Supports around the team style that the Tank pick sets in place.
There is however, value in duo tanks so you can have offensive tanks without ditching their back line completely. The issue is that also allows the death ball strategy where two tanks can more easy guard a large pile of allies.
Hoge bomen vangen veel wind. Or, in English, high trees catch a lot of wind. As the leader, you have all the responsibility and often times are blamed if you aren't playing "optimally" or at least what your teammates think is optimal. Yes, essentially being the leader is nice, but what about being a leader in a team that doesn't listen and blames you for everything? A lot of the time as tank that happens to me.
Tbh I don't even remember how it was. It's been so long ago
Open queue until recently was used mainly for 2-1-2 comps where tank players sick with rq bs can play tank duos (thus making queue times in rq even worse), but now with tankwatch is generally 3 tanks in oq. On the other hand there is also 6v6 custom games with whole community and matchmaking around it, so anyone can try it can see for themselves how it plays.
What devs need to do is to further reduce the effects of CC's & debuffs on tanks and give them some level of counterplay to them. Right now, Orisa and Zarya are the best picks against CC-heavy team comps because Orisa has an ability that literally defends her from CC while Zarya can bubble to not only shield from CC but can also remove her own debuffs.
Buff Doom & Ramattra's block to where the initial animation can avoid attack-based CC's like flashbang and sleep dart in a "perfect shield" type of move. Give JQ's shout the same thing where the initial shout can allow her to avoid getting CC'd. On the same note, they should buff Doomfist's powered-up punch, JQ's ult, Rein's charge, and to be able to break & pass through junkrat's trap. If Mauga & Orisa can run through it with their charge/fortify ability, other tanks charge-abilities/ults should be able to do the same.
Changing Cassidy's grenade every season isn't the answer to the CC/tank problem.
I just generally dont like what they did to the game. As a genji one trick the hero just doesnt feels as hard and rewarding as earlier. The new hitboxes just feel awful. Whats crazy is how they are adjusting it for the "newer players" but then forget that ow peaked while it was DIFFICULT
Yes. Next question.
U watch the video?
congratulations on missing half of the point of the video, really promoting healthy discussion here aren't you
@@dripyonko_3912did you play the first game ?
@@leoliebeaux245 yes 💀
Used to play loads of overwatch daily back in 2016-2017, with the occasional playing from 2018-2022 however I have recently come back and atm all the 6v6 / 5v5 thing is happening and tbh I really enjoy 5v5, more so then I did 6v6 on launch day in 2016
6:32 - I actually had a solution back in the day whenever I ran into 5 DPS. It was simple. I go DPS myself, and now it's 6 DPS. Solved the 5 DPS issue every time. 👍👍
If you can't beat em join em
Off tank was the most fun position
One tank created the issue that the games became an absolute mess. No order whatsoever with all responsibility being on the sole tank, who is the only protection the teammates have. The entire game is built around 6 players per team and it shows strongly with 5v5. They had to break the entire tank role, build it over and break it again.
The release of OW2 seemed fresh and exciting not because of 5v5 but because double shield was removed, games were faster, and 2cp was removed. I remember immediately dreading tank role, 5v5 was never good imo.
They fixed severe issues with OW2 but created far more. It’s more commonly known now that supports are too strong but this has been an issue since Bap & Brig.
I quit ov since 5v5 tank gameplay is always about swapping so bad
Da, I used to main off tank and now it’s not even fun cus you’re guaranteed to lose if u don’t counter in higher ranks
is overwatch 6v6 Bett-
"YES!"
I’m a 5v5 fan over 6v6 but I’ve never played this game at a higher level. I just like how 5v5 feels more free flowing and less cluttered. Dps feels very impactful, tanks are still strong and can carry matches, and supports can even pop off and get more kills. I just like that 5v5 feels more fps like than 6v6 which feels more like league of legends.
Ah, a rare fellow 5v5 enjoyer! I'm also not the highest ranking player (just reached Plat for the very first time) but think I prefer 5v5 for all the reasons you said. Tanks can still definitely carry games, and I like how supports can feel more like battle medics with one less tank to keep topped off. OW2 just has a more aggressive, fast-paced "deathmatch" feel to it.
balancing 5v5 is like balancing the 3 branches of government
Might be a hot take here, but I feel like 5v5 can be balanced but only in OQ and not in RQ. You see for the most part OP has been 2-1-2 but then became a 3 tank 2 support, however that can be balanced by reducing the amount of healing overall since healing has been a problem since season 3 of OW1 with the introduction of Ana and the rise of triple tank, as well as reducing the amount of damage dps can do slightly since they've been power creeping too. But if they still want to do RQ as the main mode then 6v6 is just gonna have to be the way to go due to 5v5 RQ being so much more difficult to balance compared to 6v6 RQ where it just needs good balance changes like reducing healing all together since like I said, it's been a problem since season 3. So at the end it depends on what they want to prioritize, if they want to continue doing 5v5 go with OQ, however if they still want to use RQ go with 6v6, that's just how I see it.
How about making OW2 being 12v12 and anyone can choose any heroes. Afraid of Chaos? Players love Chaos.
ow but tf2
We need this as an arcade mode for sure
If players really loved chaos then total mayhem would be fun
@@_.Ok. Unlimited Hero Selection with 12 v 12 for arcade or something similar. It would be fun to play if you think about it. No one will get stress out because one player doesn’t get heavily pressured like 5v5 or 6v6
@@tsuaririndoku I mean I guess it would technically be fun in the way when you're 8 you make a minecraft world to spam TNT everywhere. I don't think it would be an enjoyable gamemode in general but I could see it being fun in a buttonmashy brainless way.
6v6 OW is playable !
I saw SamitoFPS made a balanced 6v6 custom game
Ngl seems really good
Yup 7HSKW is the workshop code if you want to play 6v6 mode
The funny thing is the issue with double shield wasn't the tanks, it was healers like baptiste for example that allowed them to cycle shields unpunished. In the lazy attempt to fix double shield they just removed one tank but WE STILL HAVE THE ISSUE OF BAP BEING TOO STRONG. They simply just fail to understand what the issue of the game is and always try to take the easy way out like they did with 5v5. The switch to 5v5 eventually changed nothing because the healers are still as strong as ever. The only good thing it did achieve was shorter queue times but because the game went f2p at the same time it is way more likely that the game going f2p solved that issue meanwhile it caused the game to become more character dependent forcing you to counterpick way more and buff healers because they now only need to keep 1 tank alive instead of two. 6v6 or 5v5, the format wont change anything unless healers get nerfed. Tank is still going to be the most unpopular role because the healers just undo all their work. I can go on and on, but if they "fix" healers by nerfing them, no ones going to play healer because it's simply the most boring role. By making it the strongest and easiest role people have essentially ignored the fact it's the most boring role.
I hope the majority here agrees that the Brig and Bap hatred it's justified. After all, people call "Double shield" meta what was actually a "Broken AoE healing, Imortality Field, Double shield". They made role queue and then add a damn Tank and 'Ultimate on cooldown' hero to the support role.
Nice video. I've been a tank main since OW1 and honestly think I prefer 5v5 for its more aggressive "deathmatch" feel and decreased visual clutter. Tank honestly doesn't feel too different for me, though I've only just reached Plat and am sure solo tank feels worse the higher rank you are.
I'm interested in seeing what the devs do with the 6v6 experiment. I think removing Orisa's shield alone would've made 6v6 feel better, as her high-health low-cooldown shield was the main culprit in the double shield meta.
Loved OW1-I even still have a poster from when I first fell in love with the game. As a Zarya/Mei main from OW1, though, OW2 has been a tough adjustment. I’ve really tried to like it, but the removal of Mei’s freeze and Zarya’s other tank teammate makes it feel like OW2 isn’t designed for players like me. Sure, I still have fun occasionally, but it’s mostly driven by nostalgia. I understand it’s a live-service game, so things are gonna to change, but the shift from OW1 to OW2 has been, for lack of a better words, "not it."
some things Blizzard needs to fix before I side with 6v6 is
1. the number of tank heroes with shields so we don't hop back into double shields.
2. slashing the health of all tanks back down. (imagine two raid bosses with 700+ health)
3. finding a way to rework Mauga and Ram because they will dominate (because they were designed for 5v5)
If the game as it is now goes into 6v6 I could see Mauga Hog becoming meta (correct me if I’m wrong I still don’t know much about how metas form)
On the dps feeling better in 5v5 point you made, I'm curious if you've tried the 7HSKW 6v6 custom game mode before because I've honestly found all roles feel pretty impactful. Also small note, the balancing that's been done for that code made it so venture can dash twice underground if you dash right away which feels surprisingly way way better to me than live venture. Hope that goes to the live game one day. I hope that venture isn't too strong and they don't change that (for the custom game I mean, because it get's balance patches a decent bit)
Never actually tried the mode, but definitely seems pretty interesting from what I've seen. I guess with less stuns in ow2 and such may make dps actually feel better than I originally thought for 6v6. Also yeah that venture change seems fun, would be curious to see how it works in the live game.
@@RockSkull i also only just realised since it's actually getting updated fairly frequently, that this custom game is getting better and more frequent updates than overwatch 1 did balance wise at least in my opinion, which is a little funny idk. And yeah fair. The one stun I wish theyd bring back is flashbang with maybe a slightly shorter stun just because i feel like it has such a smooth pacing gameplay wise to watch a cass flashbang and then one tap a tracer. It's a cool dynamic to me. I've found myself changing my opinion slightly on things like oneshots and flashbang, where if it isn't too oppressive, that maybe they aren't so bad since really so many thing's don't feel great to get hit by, oneshots, stuns. Like hanzo one shot may suck sometimes but damn does it feel good to do and it is usually earned well when you get a kill. Bit of a random and only slightly related rant mb. Pretty much if we were to delete things that feel bad to get hit by too much, which to some degree i feel like that has been done, then we end up sacrificing a heroes' fun and identity just to make the game slightly less frustrating. tbf it's situational even with that logic, like brigs stun is gone apart from her ult and thank god for that
@@jimmyjab8744 my only gripe with flashbang isn't even with flashbang just fan the hammer being to consistently good with it
I don't like the "shot faster" abilities, they feel spammy and cheap imo
@@jimmyjab8744 frequency of updates doesn't matter when the quality is so shit, as evidenced by all of OW2
@@Void-Knull heh, im talking about a custom game of 6v6 getting frequent patches tho wdym. Sounds like ur talking bout the game itself not the code im meaning unless im stoopid
Dive was really peak overwatch.
They need to add an overwatch classic mode. Bring back turret bastion with his shield, sym shields, torb armor and mercy mass resurrection.
I think that the issues with many counters is that they are inherent and not based on play style.
For example mei/ symm into genji, the reason that they are good against him isn't because of a way they can be played to deny genji impact, it's because their attacks just ignore deflect and deny part of his kit, something anyone can do, with 0 skill required
I think counters should have 50-50 winrates with 0 skill players, only once people begin to understand how specific characters can counter others should counters begin to affect winrates, as before this point a win or loss isn't decided by skill but by character choice, which sucks
i genuinely don’t get it i don’t know why. Double tank with 6v6 was not that enjoyable and it is fine to admit that. As you mentioned, as a dps player I hated playing dps. If you played any niche character ranking up was hell, it was mainly suited for big damage makers. And even as support, it felt like you had less identity as a player back then. Now, game is more fast paced, supports have more to do and are not just “healers”, dps feels impactful. The only thing I do agree with is the boss fight environment especially with the newest updates. I think in the beginning of overwatch 2 it was pretty balanced and I think they can get back to that with 5v5
Personally i like the 5v5 format as ive had a more fun experience than 6v6, going from two tanks who usually just had shields and you would have to wait for one of them to randomly die as you put bullets into them wasn't as exillerating as it was made out to be.
Along with that if you saw two tanks on point or payloads you weren't going to contest it as you usually had zero chance of surviving the duo.
Meanwhile in 5v5 tanks may be stronger but they are not as immortal as they are made out to be, sometimes its just their supports doing the job and you take out the source the tank can easily be widdled down, along with the fact i have a better chance at contesting points and payloads with only 1 tank at them who i know i can out a dent in.
6v6 wasn't perfect but still better than 5v5
What I miss most about 2x tanks is losing at char select when I get 2 off tanks. Or even better falling asleep waiting for Que to pop
Losing at character select can still happen it didn't go away with 5v5
Sure queues are better but they'll go back to long queues at this rate
My thoughs about this is that i really got used of 6v6 and I kinda understand about the change but its just sad for me as a tank player to deal with this issue actually but I wished they can try 6v6 again but I guess they wont sadly :/
i just miss dps doomfist 🥲
ts so real bro tank doomfist is only doomfist in name, real doom died in ow 1
i personally miss playing 6v6, as a dva main. If i leave the team to dive enemies, the enemy tank dives my backline too, making it into a race who can kill the supports fastest. If i stay with the team, i should have just switched to something else that works better at staying with the team. I felt super powerful in ow1 as an off tank but in ow2 i am super stressed instead of having fun. I have stayed away from roleq and i have only been playing openq so i could play with the possibility of having at least an other tank on my team
One issue with 6v6 would be queue times. The vast majority of the playerbase pkays dps, then support, then even after the megabiff tank has the shortest queue time since no one os playing it. That was actually one of the reasons they stated with the ow2 release. DPS players were whining about 20 and 30 minute queue times but wouldn't play tank or support.
But the solution isn't to make tank worse to play if they truly want to fix queues
I didn’t anyone mentioning it but the main for the tank delete is dps and healers ratio to the tank. It’s like 2.5 to 1, there are not a lot of tank players and deleting two tanks helps with queue.
6v6 wont work with roleQ. Nobody will Q tank. If players want 6v6 they gotta accept roleQ. I quitted OW1 when they introduced roleQ bcs i wasnt ok with it that devs chose how we played. Let people decide how they wanna play and the meta will adapt
Just stumbled across you, I'm digging the channel!
@@AL0G1C appreciate it :D
the part about support is so true. The lesson should have been learned back in early ow2 hog meta but nope we got super support power creep causing the awful s5 s6 s7 dps support meta
Iv always been a somewhat casual to ow but in a weird way I do miss the 6v6 I’m a healer main so I always felt a sense of pride trying my hardest to keep everyone alive. Now in the 5v5 half the time you basically gotta worry about your 1 tank if your dps players suck. But that’s more of a my issue as a solo player but still idk I miss the chaos
I only played tank in OW1 when nobody wanted to switch or just to queue a game quickly so I don’t really care either way lol but I’ve definitely enjoyed playing support more in OW2
As a support player since overwatch release this is my opinion on the idea of 6v6 compared to 5v5.
I do believe that the queue times are way better than it was prior, I remember sometimes it would take me 15 minutes for 1 game. While the double shield meta was seemingly strong, I do believe the main focus of it being so strong is the supports that can basically knockoff anyone from going near or allowing your team to output major damage. (Examples of this is Baptiste, Brigitte, Ana) With the release of Mauga, I do believe the double shield meta wont be as stressful as it was prior. As you stated, that the burden of being a solo tank is too much, which causes some tanks to be undermined or less utilized. Counterpicking is a huge major thing due to the solo tank, whereas double tank counter picking had less burden as the second tank could support the other tank. It’s why majority support players or tank players do feel that they aren’t getting healed, there is just too much damage for you yourself to soak up. Whenever I attempt to play tank, I do see the frustrations that tank players do get mad about. I do believe that in theory it would be nice to make a separate queue for people who want to play 6v6 or 5v5 but it would make queue times even longer. I believe that Overwatch should attempt one of those things that customize quickplay such as the current HACKED :passives event as of right now, with the current patches made for Overwatch 2 and see how people may enjoy or dislike it.
they could keep 6v6 as a default mode for open queue ngl, since tanks hp's are already weak and if players go 2 tanks and 2 dps, that leaves only 1 support as a spot for the team to play as and same goes for 2 support and 2 tanks leading to only 1 dps
In OW1 you were forced to play a tank you dont like because of your team comp. In OW2 you are forced to play a tank you dont like because of the enemy team comp. As long as your other tank works with you in 6v6, its real fun... unless the meta tanks suck. As long as the other team doesnt swap to 3 counters and your team picks 2 compatable supports in 5v5, its probably kinda fun... unless the meta tanks suck.
The big thing about 6v6 is that you need to reintroduce a lot of CC
It was there for a reason, and without it tanks would just run wild. The limiting factor for tanks is usually either their range or their mobility, which CC helps you exploit by keeping them away from you.
If you have 2 tanks on the field coming at you and no way to stop their march forward, then it's not gonna be very fun for anyone.
6v6 glazers seem to forget how shit the balance has always been... like I hate using the overused 'rose-tinted glasses' point, but the more I debate this topic the more truth I see in it
@Void-Knull Yeah, balance was always bad and metas were always pretty hard pressed
There is just no balancing a game like Overwatch, especially if it just gets new characters added forever with each one screwing up the balance further
i remember the old day open queue with 5 DPS , i beg 1 of them to change either tank or healer, i will fill in another role. however, all ignore me until lossing the game, then one of them change widow or mei to block other player.
i prefer 6v6 when ow2 launch, but i will prefer 5v5 now. spending time to breaking double shield is bore.
queue time improve too.
I’ve been kind of a proponent of 5v5. 6v6 was too open for a lot of the more broken metas. I feel like 5v5 is just better overall and easier to balance from a full team perspective…most of the time.
That said though, with the recent tank buffs, I’d rather have 6v6 than giga-buffed raid boss tanks lol. So that gave me some new perspective. I think 6v6 could potentially work again, but they’d need to rework some of the tanks to allow it to be healthier. Mostly nerfing tank shields across the board or giving tanks other defensive abilities that don’t involve large shields. With Orisa not having one anymore at all, double shield meta wouldn’t be as prevalent but it would still be a problem in 6v6 today.
5v5 definitely isn’t perfect though. I guess maybe I’d like to see them try 6v6 once again with some tank tunings to see how it played out.
As someone who played mainly support the biggest difference was, if you can kill and hold your own it wasn’t a bad change but the ones that can’t fight just got completely dunked on. with characters I was still getting used to on support I would just not be helpful until I could kill
I definitely think there is a way to balance 5v5 properly. Tank is a role that has to deal with a lot of pressure with being so easy to deal damage to. When one tank got removed it became more pressure on tanks. To make 5v5 work they need to remove pressure from tanks by making them tankier and making them deal less damage. By doing this tanks become less rewarding to deal damage to thus removing some pressure from tanks. The game probably wouldn't be balanced if we take back 6v6 the same way it isn't balanced now. Maybe balancing 5v5 is even faster than balancing 6v6 again. One extra tank would maybe be good for counter swapping to cover up for the other tanks weaknesses, but i think that the other roles could help cover up for the tanks weaknesses if pressure is removed from the tank. They could also rework some tanks to make them cover up for their own weaknesses. I think this poor balance is because the devs aren't balancing 5v5 properly and not because having one less tank is a bad concept.
so you would be taking agency from tank players, making them the press q role, and boring AF to kill, slowing the pacing of the game to the point where there is no reason for anybody to play tank or try and interact with the tank player other than avoiding them like the plague making Q times even higher becouse nobody on their right state of mind would want to play as tank since they just sit down and relax while they watch everone else do cool stuff. Sorry I don't see how this would be good
@@wachinchonchan Adding a second tank would slow the game more than making the existing tank tankier. If you have a problem with the game becoming slower then you shouldn't support 6v6. I personally feel like people fucus tanks to much in the current meta. Making tanks more "boring" to kill could be a solution to this. Tank is supposed to be a passive role. If you think it's "boring" to not be able to deal loads of damage you should play dps. Tanks are mainly supposed to create safety for and take attention from the rest of the team.
Why not just have 6v6 with tanks doing less damage? It's not fun when you can't do anything and tank players deserve to have fun too. With a second tank and lowered damage you have a partner to share the load and you can actually play the game. Also this prevents supports needing to be buffed to help the tank. Gigabuffed supports were also an issue and just made it more annoying because healing was too high. Which made damage needing to be higher. This was also a problem because now we are in a situation where either nothing dies or you die if you don't play perfect due to the damage and healing numbers getting out of control. All the while health numbers slowly getting higher little by little. Most of these issues could be avoided if we had a second tank. As for double shields. 1) the orisa rework would have help alot. 2) nerfing aoe healing and nerfing abilities like immortality field and suzu into the dirt (specifically sustain abilities that are too strong) will actually kill that comp. 3) for people that say "Checkmate what about Ram?" I say IF it's an issue lower the time that his barrier can be up. Unlike OW1 Orisa, Rams' barrier has a short time it can be up and can't be cycled due to its high cooldown. Overwatch is at its worst when you feel like you can't do anything. This has been proven in the past with stun abilities, strong sustain abilities, and high healing being some of the biggest complaints.
@@quad7778 Increasing the survivability of tanks would solve the problems as much as adding a second tank. Tanks wouldn't need to share the load if one tank could handle the load itself. This could also be an alternative to increasing healing. If tanks have trouble surviving then tanks should be buffed instead of support. This will avoid the problems you just mentioned. This may also solve the issue of not being able to do anything. Right now tanks are kind of limited because it's so risky engage. Increase tank survivability to solve that. I'm not saying that they should nerf tank damage a lot. I'm just saying that it might be necessary to compensate if they make tanks tankier. Even if this makes tanks weak when it comes to damage, there is another role dedicated to dealing damage which means it not that important for tanks to deal a lot of damage. I agree with you on the double shield thing. It could've easily been fixed with proper balancing just like 5v5 can.
@mccrasyboy2786 Idk, the idea looks great on paper but it really comes down to how those buffs would be executed. Can we trust the devs to make tanks tankier without making them feel oppressive to deal with. Personally, I would rather deal with 2 weaker tanks that I can kill than one wall that I feel like I can't kill. It's like with two tanks the healers have to divide their healing more, and tank cooldowns/abilities will be lowered due to having two tanks. I want to feel like I am able to kill one rather than just feel like I'm being forced to stop playing because dva eats all my shots throughout the game. At that point, I would counter swap to something that dunks on the tank just to have fun again, but is that really a good thing... Because for the tank, that is really frustrating to deal with when the enemy team is able to counter swap you into the dirt. Counter swapping could be mitigated with two tanks. Idk it feels like adding that second tank could fix so many more issues without causing the game to feel stagnant. Numbers would be generally lowered, more team coordination would be needed, counter picks would be less prevalent, tanks would be killable since the healing would be more divided, and the list goes on. It feels like we got to a burnout point way quicker than in Overwatch 1, but is that fair to say since Overwatch 1 had less hero's needing to be balanced. The final decision really goes to the devs though and we just have to deal with whatever they decide to do.
I'm the only person the believes 5v5 is better. And I'm ok with that.
From just a basic balancing of roles having one role be outnumbered is a problem. If they want to double down they can go 3 dps 1 support 1 tank next
I feel that DPS not feeling as good in 6v6 will he helped drastically by the role passives. Having the Heal reduction give them a sense of purpose and to be honest I feel that Tanks and Supports should ALWAYS deal less damage then a DPS looking at Zen, Bap, Mauga, & Roadhog. I feel those as well as a change to either how many non-personal barriers can be on a Team or how their HP is determined would be enough to make 6v6 feel better in the immediate future. Long term they will have to REALLY think through what CC abilities they allow and where they allow them.
I'd love to have dubble tank back. Tank has been one of my main roles since early overwatch 1 and I can say it was a lot more fun going two tanks. Also if you don't counter pick you can basically not do anything. I can't play the characters I want to because I will get counterpicked and destroyed. Kind of have to pick a counter to the other tank or we lose.
hm idk support was the undisputed meta role since kirikos release until dps passive was added and 90% of complaints was their solo sustainability
I think they should make it like shields in Apex, where 1 side goes through and the other side blocks damage.
If hardware became good enough I'd be very interested in the possibility of 7v7 to help the dps queues while not putting too much on any one given player to perform
now that it's 5v5 i feel like tanks is just a DPS with more HP i keep seeing tanks run off to flank or get left alone to 1 v 4 what i mean to say is i feel like Tanks are playing more like DPS then Tanks aka Doom fist but now as rein i mean all that new tanks are like DPS Junker Queen Mauga even Ram just goes star platinum mode but yeah maybe that's just me that feels that way
No as a support half my games the tanks just trade back lines. Our ball kills all their supports while we get dove by a dva.
Honestly if they have a role queue for 6v6 I’d love for it to come back, open queue kinda just makes things unfair no matter what you do lol
Honestly no matter what they say for the 6v6 dev blog I'm happy.
1) Bringing back 6v6 is going to fix the game if they put the work in.
2) If they are doing a semi trial thing then everyone is going to realize 6v6 is better as long as the devs actually give it a fair chance.
3) If they aren't bringing back 6v6 then I don't have to waste my time and energy on a sunk ship. I have spent so long loving/hating this game and I'm getting pretty close to neither and instead to apathy.
As a casual player, I lost interest in the game after they introduced 5v5 because I played a lot of secondary/off tank and didn't want to always be the main tank. If they brought back 6v6 I'd likely give the game a look again. I did like introduction of role que and only allowing one of each hero per team though, those were actually good changes.
Miss og anna, being a rein main it was the best to just speed through wacking everyone like the massive man in even more massive armor carrying a pick up truck for a hammer that rein is
Balance is the main problem Overwatch has had since the beginning. Fact of the matter is, it’s not possible to balance 5v5 role queue, but 6v6 can be balanced with the right changes
They said 6v6 is just nostalgia pandering bs, and if that’s true they should put their money where their mouth is and prove it. Take the custom game code and put it for arcade and I bet nobody would want to go back
Yeah arcade isn't role lock
It needs to be in QP where everyone can see that it's an option with role q then they can decide if the queues matter that much or of they like 1 format over the other
i used to play a lot of off-tank in ow1 and now it feels a bit unplayable, especially for lower skill players. Lucio was also a top pick of mine but now because he has less protection you almost have to mix healing with dps
Personally in my opinion I think 6v6 had just as much problems as 5v5
Dude 6v6 was way better to play as a tank. As a Rein main, I need a tank partner to support me like Zarya or Dva.
I would just prefer that roles are pick after getting in on a match, having 3 separates waiting lines makes entering on matches so slow, and is not something they can't do, in the community gamemode this format was a thing and waiting times where cero also being able to switch roles mid match so if mi friend has to many problems whit his role i can replace him for flexibility
What's the song you used for the outro? I know it from somewhere but can't put my finger on it.
The song is called "Answering The Call" by Adam Burgess, the bit I used is right at the beginning of the song :)
The only time I remember them using it officially was for that "Protector" animated short they released on their Japanese channel.
I feel like a lot of people against 6v6 use the metas as their argument a lot, whereas the real only arguments against the format itself I've heard a genuine argument about is that queue times are shorter across the board due to having 1 less tank on each team. While I feel that this is a valid point, I believe that the game should strive to be as good as it possibly could be, and I feel that 6v6 was more balanced and more structured than 5v5 ever can be. The appeal of Overwatch as opposed to other shooters is the team play, and removing a teammate inherently removes team play, which goes against the original design philosophy of Overwatch. I have many arguments against 5v5 as a format compared to 6v6, citing every meta that we've had in Overwatch 2 as an example of this. When the game came out, Dva, Zarya, and Winston were the big 3 tanks, and most people defaulted to Zarya. To fix this issue, let's look at ways to check Zarya. A great example is Reinhardt being able to keep a shield in Zarya's face, preventing her from doing damage. Now, if the game was 6v6 at the time, Zarya wouldn't have been a problem, as Rein and Winston check her, and you would just run one of those tanks to check it, while also having a Zarya of Dva of your own. Next meta I believe was the Hog Meta because his hook was too strong in a 5v5 environment. As a fix, what if your team just had a Dva or Orisa in addition to their other tank with the express purpose of keeping their Hog in check, which would have solved the problem. Next was the Orisa Meta, which resulted due to Orisa being too difficult to kill, but if there were a 6th player in the mix, it would substantially change the dynamic of Orisa and she would not be nearly as polarizing (in theory). Admittedly, this meta may have been much different if the game was 6v6, and Orisa probably would have still been too powerful. Next I remember the meta being Bastion rush, which required that the tank play Sigma so that the bastion didn't murder him, but if there were a second tank in the mix, a team could dedicate a Dva, Orisa, or Sigma to help absorbing the bastion while the other tank was able to actually play the game. Next Meta was Ram rush... 6v6 wouldn't have changed this meta at all to be frank. Next meta was a rotation of Mauga, Hog, and Orisa being powerful, and both Hog and Mauga are hard countered by Dva, which would have created a much more dynamic meta. Currently we're in a meta where teams either run Sig, Ram, or Monkey, and a second tank won't change the current meta much. In addition to metas being fixed by a second tank most of the time, in 5v5, counterswapping is way too powerful, and did anyone notice that counterswapping wasn't a huge issue in Overwatch 1? That's because the second tank could cover the weaknesses of the first tank, preventing an entire team from making the tank's life miserable with a simple swap. I could give examples of this, but this comment is much too long now. I have always been, and will continue to be, a 6v6 supporter until the developers can make 5v5 an objective better experience than 6v6, which I don't believe is possible.
5v5 no major format changes !
- role passive
- health regeneration for all roles
Why not 3 dps and open queue for 6v6?
6vs6 was better.
W outro
Do you know the name of the song?
@darkdragon072 roxxane but his diy version
@@kaiupnxt do you know the song before that one?
@darkdragon072 if you're talking about the song with the piano right before the very end then unfortunately I don't :(
@@darkdragon072 The song is called "Answering The call" by Adam Burgess, the bit I used is right at the beginning!
Also sorry for the late response, yt never gives me notis for replies lol
8:11 but they should've nerfed the supports that did that lol (like you said the game was left to rot)
8:12 but with one less tank in the way, they've had to just flat out nerf DPS characters numbers, soldier went down like 3 whole damage per bullet or something, genji shurikens went from 29 to 27, reaper got -1 damage per pellet, etc. And then s9 health changes lmao, the TTK is so much longer now, also random side note ult charge is WAYYY slower nowadays than it used to be, ow2 nerfed all ult charge globally by around 10%, and then again in season 9.
6v6 and role queue cannot go together. its never going to work. the queue times will be insane and role queue is like a crutch for the shitty dps role. if it goes back to 6v6, it needs to be open and the game needs to be balanced appropriately. role queue can only work with 5v5.
6v6 was better
I don't think it really matters which one is better than the other, but losing the option to play 6v6 instead of 5v5 is overall stupid. Being pigeon-holed into one format doesn't feel good, ever, especially if there was a heavily enjoyed format that was replaced by one that's less enjoyed.
They should add a limited event to test 6v6
So much better it’s actually sad that I have to only queue tank because relying on one brain dead tank sucks
I think what bothers me the most is the fact that the dev team has split the ow community right down the middle. You have 5v5ers saying that 6v6ers are just seeing things through rose tinted glasses and you have 6v6ers calling 5v5ers delusional.
As much as I personally want 6v6 to come back I know thats probably not the case and truthfully, I'll be fine with it because I know I can finally let the game go.
Great video by the by!
I find you saying that dps feels better in ow2 pretty shocking ngl. After making tanks raid bosses due to 5v5, in the situations where you have no other option but to focus tank, it just feels like shooting a brick wall. In 6v6, tank players also had to worry more about over extending because while they had some good defensive kit and health for survivability, a dps was still a big threat to them. That made the dps role feel much better than it does now. Good video!
In 6v6 I was able to kill stuff, now everything is immortal.
You know too well that tanks needed to either be raid bosses that fight eachother or they would stay in spawn all game because they explode due to all the focusing that happened before the megabuff.
@@charliemiller4577 Thanks for the kind words! For me dps in 6v6 was always rough because of just how slow the game was. With 2 tanks on the battlefield things really slow down and it makes it really hard to do things like flank/dive the backline due to the 2nd tank often peeling. I will say with less stuns+shooting into shields probably being less prevalent with ow2 might make it feel better.
@@arakemi1080 well isn’t that the inherit problem with the single tank format? I think that making the tanks super buffed, while being the only option for making them feel good now, has hurt every role in terms of enjoyment.
@@charliemiller4577 blizzard being blizzard, and seeing how the team looks nowadays, i can see WHY they aren't changing back to 6v6. a certain group of people just doesn't want to admit they did something wrong.