Credit Where Credit is Due - with Tom Vasel
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- Опубліковано 5 вер 2024
- Tom Vasel discusses his thoughts on attribution in board gaming!
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I’ve really been loving these new videos on board game history and interesting facts and observations Tom. Not only am I learning things but we all get to see your passion on another level for your craft.
💯
We really appreciate when the artists name is included. We enjoy looking up their bios and exploring all the other things they may have done. Great video.
11:05 is a total hoot! Lowercase Tom and all cap Mike! The "King Dili" is too too funny. Great and thanks for the vid, lot of fun in the business....
This is tough. Fashion is a creative field and you don't get a list of credits with a Tshirt. If the label is a very famous 1 designer label, then you know who made it. But if you pick up a TShirt at walmart you'd probably never find out who designed it. In fact most products have some creativity to them, as they aren't purely functional, and the designers of those products are rarely, if ever, given credit. I suppose sometimes you get that QC sticker that has a number on it...
Thanks for continuing to make "discussion" videos from time to time! It's really useful to take a step back and think about larger trends and how we got to this point.
A fact to add: GMT Games talks often on their web page and blogs about the developers, playtesters, designers, etc who contribute to their games. I think other publishers do too. So that information is out there and if gamers/customers engage with it, publishers will talk more about it. Demand for this information will encourage supply!
On Amazon I can search for books by an author, but they don't list the designers of boardgames, making it hard to search for games by a designer. But even on many online boardgame stores is it difficult to search by designer.
Please consider supporting your FLGS. The River is poison.
@@unlimitedrabbit In fairness, some games are VERY tough to get at a LGS - typically ones by smaller companies that used Kickstarter. But they show up on Amazon. Huge fan of how Kickstarter has increased the power of smaller designers & developers to launch games - but it's not all sunshine and rainbows. There are drawbacks to it.
18XX games tend to acknowledge Francis Tresham as the originator of the 18XX series. Sadly, not all. Francis was a wonderful man, who didn’t seek fame or fortune, so it is great to see those games recognise the originator of the design.
Interesting video Tom.
Maybe the inspiration from earlier designs should be acknowledged in the rulebook.
Dvd or Blu-ray covers often have "directed by" and possibly "produced by" on the cover somewhere. The more space on a board game box definitely has space for designers and artists. And just how a movie has credits, an instruction book certainly has space for all the contributions.
Maybe in a separate leaflet or something. What we don't want is a rule book thickened by pointless pages that few people actually read when we're already drowning in thick rulebooks. Major contributions should be necessary, I agree. But I also find it stupid how films and video games will go so far as crediting the person that brought such and such their coffee. I would almost say that credit should only go to people who work freelance, whereas any person with a fixed income from a company involved should just be credited by that company. ie "A game from Fantasy Flight" automatically includes all employees, they don't need individual credit. They can go set up a wiki page somewhere like IMDB where people can go look.
Great video, Tom! Love it! More like this, please. Maybe a historical look at common themes, common mechanics, etc.
Happy that Geoff helped start the TGDA. It's about time it was more of a standard thing in the industry to protect the designers and give them proper credit.
I still love the front of the box of one my favorite games ever, and it brings out a little smile every time I read it: "Obsession, A Dan Hallagan Board Game" 😄
Put all the designers, artists, developers etc. on the box lid, but on the right side panel. Easy place on the side that won’t clutter a front or back or be too small in place for the art and then rendered useless. On the side you have enough space to list all the names, grouped by designation. It would be a uniform standard spot and everyone would do it which means those who aren’t putting the information on the front/back would now do so. Sacrificing one side panel that basically has placeholder art or the game name only would be a simple solution.
What a fantastic series. Very informative and interesting. Thanks for your contributions to the board game hobby and industry Tom! Well done!
In the early days of Hollywood, movies were credited (marketed) by the studio or the producer, more than anything else (think "An MGM Musical" or "A David O. Selznick picture"). It was a long time and a lot of work by the directors, writers, and actors unions before credits were automatically on the posters (and those remain a matter of negotiation to this day), and decades after that when we started seeing full credits in the movie, not just department heads. Games are running a parallel course now: we're exiting the period of "A Parker Brothers game", but there's still a long way to go before everyone involved in the production gets the credit they deserve, and the various guilds will be instrumental in making that happen.
And how those names on trailers, posters, and in the credits appear is a HUGE deal now. Tons of rules and regulations by the associated unions for how & when names are displayed. Not just to protect actors from the companies, but also to protect them from each other (ie, one actor hogging the credits spotlight too much).
Developers deserve more credit.
Great conversation. Something I noticed is that many of the reviews on this channel (and to be fair, many channels) do not mention the designer when talking about a game unless they are already quite famous, often opting only to mention the publisher (if that). Would love if you guys made more of an effort to mention the people behind the games too, it would help with visibility and recognition :)
Great behind-the-scenes look at the industry! We'd love to see more like this. Cheers!
This was super interesting. Thanks for sharing this history!
Thank you for advocating for designers’ names to be on the front of the box, Tom! I agree I think we are moving in the right direction and hopefully mass market publishers will get on board soon. I also appreciate the research done for this video and the history of the different organizations advocating for designers’ rights. So glad the TTGDA now exists 😅
Definitely agree. The designer of the game speaks to me of the quality of the skeleton, so to speak. No matter how much polish you put onto a mediocre design, it'll never be the kind to capture you so completely, or offer the level of replayability and deep strategic choices that top-end game designs have. But at the same time, an amazingly designed game that just has the basic touches put onto it often show cases those issues. Bad rulebooks, painful insert/box design, underwhelming component quality. A good publisher/developer promises me that I'm going to like the flesh & skin of the game, not just the skeleton that makes it move.
I really think that the format should be:
Name of Game (duh), nice and bold. Designer's name on the front of the box, centered either towards the bottom, or under the game name. Publisher logo in the bottom right corner. Artist's name next to or under publisher logo if done with a single artist. If done with multiple artists, they get demoted to box side and/or rulebook. Rulebook should ALWAYS have a page listed of everyone involved in the project on a design/develop level. Teams (ie the publisher company) should have a header, with members involved listed under it.
Everyone gets credit, but we keep it limited to 3 names on the front of the box (2 designers for a collaboration, plus 1 artist), plus the publisher logo. If more designers, then they need a 'design team' name, or a lead designer to hog the credit.
Full credits should be listed on the inside of the back cover (leaving back cover for quick reference materials). Always the same place, so everyone knows right where to look.
+1 to more board game history videos. Love Them!
As a consumer it can be really helpful to know who designed the game, if you are familiar with their work. Which brings up a question about the use of pseudonyms. In addition, at least one designer used another designers name as a pseudonym in the past, which has led to confusion and rights disputes. It is a very interestingly political and nuanced aspect of designing/publishing which I love to hear more about. Thanks for discussing it Tom.
Monopoly was "designed" by Charles Darrow, Clarence Darrow was the famous lawyer in the early 20th that defended the teacher in the Scopes Monkey Trial.
Lizzie Magie designed the game that would become Monopoly. The Charles Darrow story is incomplete, as he actually stole the idea after playing her game. He sold the game to Parker Brothers as his own idea. She was eventually compensated by Parker Bros for the concept after the connection was discovered.
@@BoardGamesBricksHobbies I know hence the quotes around “designed”
@@BoardGamesBricksHobbies ooooooooo cool.
This is a fun video, and I'll need to finish it later, but I didn't know Prospero Hall (designers) disbanded! They had some nice games.
What should be *required* is for the designer's name (as the principle author of the work) to appear on the cover at his/her discretion and for there to be a Credits page somewhere in the game rulebook that lists all the people who officially contributed to the game (who want their name to appear).
That should be Ethics (and preferably Law) 101 for any collaborative creative effort that is put on the market for commercial gain.
As far as who else's name should be on the actual cover besides the designer, I think that should be left as a creative/marketing decision by the production team. That way, it is available as a kind of kudos to any artist, writer, developer, etc. to show that the production team finds their input valuable enough to affect marketing (i.e. whether people want to get the game or not). But, their names will all be documented inside the box one way or the other.
Great video! Keep it up Tom. I am really liking these board game industry information videos a lot. Thank you.
Great video Tom, super important topic. I love that you're taking time talking about issues important to board gaming.
Loving the credit screen, MIKE. You bring up a lot of good points, tom. 😊 In my opinion, following the movie model, on the front of the box should be the designer(s) name above the title, the artist(s) name below the title. For games with minis, that credit should at least be on the back of the box so that the 3-D modeler(s) can build a reputation with consumers the way the graphic artists do. Lastly, the full list of credits should be in the rulebook.
I’ve been thoroughly enjoying this series of videos. May there be many more.
I'm a fan of designer, artist, and developer if it exists. Great video Tom and Mike! ;)
a lot of publishers are really disrespectful with authors.
Bingo. And it's not an accident. They like keeping the creatives "in their place," lest they gain more negotiating power. Until an author reaches critical mass, e.g., Rowling or Clancy, publishing houses prefer to minimize them. In gaming, we have some like that: Rosenberg, Ruhnke, or Hargrave. It's nice to see her building professional solidarity, rather than pulling the ladder up behind.
@@jasmadams totally. First hand account : the publisher i worked for was reallllllly shitty towards at least two of the most prolific authors out there. Like not giving news for years. Like trying to find ways to minimize their input on games. Like talking shit about them. They were just a commodity. The games, in their minds, were not the authors' anymore. The authors became a kind of necessary obstacle to make millions off of
Box credits should be like the way poster art for films and plays are designed.
More, more of these videos please on different topics on board game industry or history, please.
An important topic. Need to remind us & discuss periodically.
My first published game I thought who cares no one knows me or the artist anyways but I’m putting us both on my future games I think it adds to the validity of the product and respects our work. I’m talking as an indie solo designer
I was surprised that Mattel included the designer Nick Hayes on the cover of Wizards Wanted. Now if only Mattel would give credit to the Hot Wheels artists, too many of them say Designer: Hot Wheels even though the Hot Wheels wiki has the real name.
Very interesting, thanks Tom Vasel!
Great video, have really bee enjoying this format and topics.
wow I had no idea! this is great board game history!
This is why I always introduce new games with "This is [game] by [designer(s)]."
This will help with gamers who are now spoilt for choice (or overwhelmed) with the amount of games being released these days. Make it easier to follow game designers, just like we can buy books from our favourite authors.
Does the DIce Tower have a response video to the Meeple German trademark issue?
The first game I ever bought on steam was Reiner Knizia's The Confrontation.
A law needs to be made. Another reason not to buy from big brands. So glad the smaller game companies brand the designer proudly on their boxes. They know us board gamers follow the designers. It's an easy sale.
Every person involved in the making of a game should go on the box or in the box. Designer and artist for sure. The others can be listed inside the box at a minimum.
I think at this point, most publishers don't even think twice about putting a designer's name on it because even if that designer is a first-time designer, what if their next game is a Wingspan or a Heat or a The Crew? There's going to be a lot of interest in that designer's earlier games. How do you bring in all those people if you're hiding who made your game?
But let's not get silly with this. One of the best things to ever happen to movies is them getting rid of all the names at the beginning. Especially like those 50s movies that basically had today's end credits at the beginning. I don't think this will get too bad because many covers are now getting too convoluted, with designer and artist and publishing company and the player count and age and time-to-play and awards and what have you. Box art has gotten so fantastic and it's starting to get muted by the clutter. Box art is usually created to work with the title, but not all the other words and logos that get slapped on there. I find myself really appreciating the publishers who put a strip at the bottom with all that stuff. Maybe if something like this became somewhat of a standard, then so would the information included upon it. Just a thought.
I really dislike when the front of the box has age ranges, play-time, and player counts. If I'm curious about a game from the name & art (and designer name perhaps), I know I can find that information on a side or the back of the box. Player count is PLENTY for me to see on the front, and even that is optional.
I want the front of my box to be gorgeous. But most of my games are displayed showing their side only. So all 4 sides need to show the pertinent information (game name mainly). Throwing on the player count and play-time here doesn't hurt.
Leave age range for the back of the box ALWAYS. If it's in my collection, I don't need to know what it is. If you feel that you MUST share age range as an advertising mechanic, include a paper band around the game before shrink wrapping it, so that you can put the "advertising info" onto the band, which gets thrown away after the game is bought.
Great video as always. Surprised Mike D's name isnt bigger in the credits 😂
The big one for me in recent years that I couldnt believe was MOOD publishing leaving Ole Steiness off the box entirely AFTER using his name to advertise on Kickstarter, so they used his name to get board gamer's attention and then scrubbed him for the retail release because they were trying to sell it to the video gamers. 😒
Just seems like something that should be negotiated between the various people that contribute to the game and the publisher. For me, all I really care to know is the game designer(s). It could certainly get very out of hand trying to credit everyone that was involved in getting that game to the consumer. Do we thank the guy at the manufacturing plant in China? What about the UPS worker that delivered it? Accountants? Lawyers?
Time to use the backside of the box top. Most are blank. Maybe even on the backside of the game board.
Thanks for doing this video!
This Mike Dilisio guy surely seems important. I meab, look at how big his name was during the credits!
New word-of-the-month: "cluttersome" :)
Always a big fan of Dilisio videos
"What else has Peter Jackson done?"
Better not go down that rabbit hole. 😂
Not just designers but I think everyone who contributed to the project should at least go into the rulebook as credits. I'm a marketer who spends many hours talking with people and making sure all the messages and blasts are going out there, which ultimately leads to sales and popularity of the game. Yet... we're most often the least important when it comes to being credited but I wish it wasn't so.
great insights!! 😊
My opinion is Designer and Artist on front of box. All other contributors on last page of rules
But who is a contributor?
Is the licensing team a contributor, because they signed the deal with the designer?
Is the sales team a contributor, because they maybe gave some hints to the artist about what they think sells?
Should the manufacturer be listed? Some publishers do this, but most don't.
In movies we have long credits listing everybody including the catering team. Do we need this in board games?
I don't know... I find it hard to draw a line somewhere between nobody and everybody
This is amazing
I mean, if even movie posters can have that bunch of names on it why not board game boxes? put it in the back, have some creative way of making it part of the box idk, but do it. It's sad to me when you like the art, game, miniatures, whatever about the game and have to dig deep just to find that one person's name, even though they had such big part on the production.
extremely important video, hope the publishers listen to you Tom!
It's one part that big names sell
It's another part that unions require it to be so.
Videogame publishers mostly want to strip the teams and key visionaries of visibility from the public eye so you see the faceless corpo as the 'creator' rather than the people making it.
Hasbro already pulling this crap with their properties.
Designers and artists should have names on the boxes for as long as we can fight for it.
Then everyone else gets a prominent page of accreditation
what about the fact that sometime the artist designer can not put there name on the box(for legal reasons) they maybe using a pseudo name for know, should that name be on the box?
lower case tom vasel cracks me up...KING DILI reigns supreme.
What are the thoughts on self publishing and placing the name on the box? Personally I felt weird about putting my name on the cover for my first game, cause I felt my name added nothing to the game
It's a small thing, but what the name adds to me is the confidence in your own product that you're willing to have your name be attached to it. Plus if it's well-received, you'll have more credibility to your name for the next time.
@@DTChrisYi that’s an interesting take that I hadn’t really thought about!
You also have to future proof a little bit though. What if your second or third or fourth game becomes a hit? People will want to be able to find your other games. I suppose as an indie publisher that could be a little bit harder, but I still think it's worth considering. In that sense, it's not bragging but actually a consideration to your players in the future.
put the name of the maker/producer of those incedible pieces in the box!
I must be buying from the right publishers. Not a single one of my 120+ collection doesn’t have the author’s name in the box.
This issue is all about the money. Designers rightly want to get paid well for their popular works.
Pretty high score for an expansion that is non essential. I think that speaks volumes about the game. Amazing!
How about a seperate sheet with all the credits in the box. i do think the designer should be on the box as well just not everbody tha would be much.
A box cover is a marketing tool to draw people to purchase the box ... it's not an education tool to educate or promote a person unless by doing so it will increase the number of sales.
In the end - like most thing - what the person who pays money for something wants is what will be produced.
If people who purchase board games want to see a particular name than that name will end up on more boxes.
If people who purchase board gaems want them to be more like art pieces that they can show off or display ... with less words on them ...
Building a brand will always help with sales because it helps people know what to expect, the brand could be a world, designer, publisher or something else.
You're one of the people here with the proper answer. But I guess that you already know as well what type of people are the leading voices in boardgaming industry. They like to make laws, associations that will impose things on customers indirectly. In capitalism, it's the customer who decides.
Publishers started putting designer names not because there is a guild, but because people want to buy games from a specific designers and they become brand.
👏
Put as many names on the box cover as you want. But the designers should be most obvious and clear. Everyone is different - I get that - but for me the only name that matters in the decision to purchase is the designer. All the rest is nice to know and icing on the top, but has no weight in my wallet.
No need but if wanted small text in the back
Since the Dice Tower is designer heavy, being a designer himself, Tom, and employing designers, Roy, it could be argued that there are biases. I would like to see Dice Tower include publishers in this conversation and get their input.
Can i offer you a few more commas?
@@jimmybaggz5932 only if you have them to spare
No reason the free market can’t handle this.
Movie credits are Ridiculous
Video game ones have become even longer.
Spoken like someone who watches a lot of Marvel Movies in theaters! 😂 (Because you have to wait until the end of the credits. Which is annoying)
Nah, designer name doesn't really need to be on the cover. Neither does the artist or the publisher or the developer or playtesters or the forty Chinese ladies who packed the boxes. There's a place for that stuff in the rulebook.
Any reason for that? Or the casual racism?
@@Dragon7398 Pretty sure I explained myself fully. I guess you didn't read the entire comment. No racism here dum dum, sorry to disappoint. Firstly Chinese isn't a race, it's a nationality. Secondly my little joke was a dig at companies that exploit Chinese people by exclusively Chinese factories simply because it's cheaper to do so.
@@TheLunatiched Insults, bigotry, and 'no need to give credit to artists just because 🤷'. Quite the persuasive 'argument'.
@@Dragon7398 Care to explain any of these claims you are making? Nowhere did I do what you suggest. You are the only one throwing around insults. I already explained myself fully (which, by the way, I had zero responsibility to do so) yet here you are making false claims. To a hammer everything looks like a nail. It must be tough to live with so much hate inside. I'm sorry for you. I sincerely hope things get better for you.
@@TheLunatiched 'dum dum', clearly not an insult. And you haven't explained anything aside from just 'no, don't give credit on the box'. That and your casual xenophobia are shocking. You are clearly not talking with good faith here; good luck, and try to become a better person someday.