Would using the bridge pin slotting technique aleviate the issue of the bridge pins pulling forward as more of the tension of the string is held by the bridge plate and not the pin? That is sawing in a groove in the slot towards the soundhole and turning the pins backwards or using unslotted pins. Also, can those cracks be repaired and if so how?
I think that could be one of the viable approaches to improve this situation. I would just add one additional detail to it. If using this approach, I would probably recommend using un-slotted pins that are oversized. At the time of the recording, two of the pin hole walls were somewhat crushes, as a result of the pins not being at 90 degree. So, enlarging the diameters of the pin holes would clean up the mess. It would also provide a cleaner pin hole walls to receive the pins and increase the contact area. Although the pins would not be holding the strings, they should be properly seated. In fact, the more I think about this, literally as I am typing, I think this might actually be the best and simplest solution. I definitely want to pin your comment (no pun intended).
I've been playing guitar for forty years. You have to be realistic here, you get a beautiful mahogany body guitar with an abalone rosette for under £400! I bought one recently and had my local luthier make a few adustments...it's a wonderful guitar for a fraction of the cost of a Taylor or Martin.
Thomann is putting out some great looking instruments for the price points they are hitting. I feel like corners have to be cut somewhere and my guess is wood and electronics in the electric guitars. As for the acoustic you examined, the cracking in the bridge was with the grain of the wood. If they rotated the wood 90 degrees before carving it would that have made a difference? Thanks for another excellent deep dive!
I agree that Thomann puts out these instruments are attractive prices. I've seen quite a few of them, recently. I've also done a lot of finishing work on many of them. In essence, customers were paying me to do the type of finishing work that would normally be done on high end boutique builds. In many cases, believe it or not, people paid me more than they paid for the instruments. I am concerned about the big picture. These are still cheaply made guitars. There's no way to make guitars cheaply without cutting corners, starting from unethical forestry, exploitation of workers that borders on slave labor and then there's technical aspects of the builds, such as glue joints, wood grain orientation, hardware (see my Harley Benton Progressive Series review video - ua-cam.com/video/5xH5vIXT97I/v-deo.html that shows the sitar buzzing in the cheaply-built Floyd Rose licensed hardware). To answer your question about wood grain orientation on the bridge, the wood grain needs to run perpendicular to the strings. There are reasons why bridges crack between the bridge pins. In this case, the two recessed parts of the bridge have a lot to do with it, as the recessed parts structurally weaken that part of the bridge. But there are other reasons, too. Perhaps that's a good topic for another video.
You think there's any way to reinforce to who with a metal or wooden cylinder the pin-holes of the bridge or do I misunderstand how the acoustics of a bridge function?
I'm afraid there is no easy or cheap way to replace the bridge. This is a time consuming high skilled job that requires specialized tools and experience, and every bridge reglue job is different. It is one of the jobs on my price list that generates the lowest revenue per hour, as it is so time consuming. And sometimes you don't know how time consuming it will be until you've removed the bridge and reached the point of no return.
There are in fact bridge pin hole repair plugs available www.stewmac.com/parts-and-hardware/endpins-and-bridge-pins/bridge-pin-hole-repair-plugs/ but, as with any other luthery jobs, one needs specialized tools and experience to get good results. It is also important to point out that this was a brand new guitar. We should not be doing a bridge replacement nor pin hole repairs on brand new guitars.
I just checked at Thomann and the CLG 650 SM is no longer available. I ordered one a month ago and it is on the way so guess I have ordered the last one. Hope I have not made a major mistake in buying one but I guess I will know in a few weeks. With all the good reviews I have been seeing, I wonder why they have discontinued this model.
Every guitar is different, even if the same make an model. I think guitar reviews are not to be taken literally as the guitar being reviewed is not going to be identical to all the other guitars of the same make and model. I look at each guitar separately.
many similarities with guitars from Cort, where, for example, Ibanez acoustics are also manufactured alongside other brands. I think the Harley Bentons come from Cortek. tens of thousands of Cort guitar models have this bridge design and you don't hear anything negative about it... maybe an isolated case
D'Angelico acoustic guitar also have the same bridge design. It's a bad design, in my opinion. There's simply less support for the bridge pins. The design does have some benefits, such as lighter weight (which is beneficial for the sound) and also a naturally occurring brake angle of the strings over the saddle (which is also beneficial for the sound). The break angle can be achieved on a conventional bridge by cutting string slots against the holes, but it does result in a heavier bridge. I think the entire bridge pin design and the actual proportions that we are stuck with is not ideal to begin with.
I like cheap, but you get what you paid for. I expect to tweak (or replace) the nut on a budget guitar but there's nothing you can do about a poor design. I'd like to try one of their parlor models someday.
In the case of this CLC-650 the poor design is the bridge. I wouldn't say there's nothing one can do about it, but for most people the fix is not practical. If I had this guitar and really wanted to fix it, so I could keep it, I could spend the time to remove the bridge, make a new one and glue it in. But for the average person that is not a viable option. It is also a question, how that bridge was glued, and what kind of glue was used. I have a feeling it was fast curing superglue, as I've seen on dozens of cheap guitars. I'm actually already planning a video that will clearly show how these bridges are glued in and why it's a problem when it comes to longevity and serviceability of these guitars.
We live in a throw away society. Replacing a bridge on an acoustic is beyond me. If I had to I would plug the holes and redrill forgoing the deep recess.
You’re right, plugging and re-drilling would help. That main recessed area across the back of the bridge would still be there, but at least it would get rid of those completely unnecessary secondary recessed areas inside the pin holes.
Like any Harley Benson guitar ever made, this bridge is actually a copy of another manufacturer’s design. I see this kind of bridge design on D’Angelico acoustic guitars, but I am not sure which manufacture actually came up with it.
It’s not even corner cutting. They just badly designed the bridge. Instead of the entire recessed area, the holes just need to have string slots, so that the strings can have the proper brake angle over the saddle.
@@GuitarQuackery Corner cutting can manifest in the form of deficient design review / product testing processes, resulting in bad designs advanced into production. Have you ever encountered similarly bad designs in pro-level multi thousand $ guitars?
@@GuitarQuackery I realize now that my previous comment was not worded well and could come across as defensive, but it wasn't at all meant to be - and I was genuinely interested whether you encountered such design flaws on expensive guitars.
@@Iamadoctor6365 Oh, I simply misunderstood what you meant, as I usually would think that cutting corners would mean to do things in a way to save money. But they are not saving any money by making those recessed areas. In fact, those are even extra steps in the production of the bridge. Now regarding your question. I think there are plenty of higher end guitars that have some design flaws. I always thought that the Gibson SG was not properly designed. When they designed the TOM bridge it was made to work with the Les Paul, which has a carved top. Then they re-designed the Les Paul in 1961 into a flat top guitar (which was later named SG). But they made the mistake of keeping the bridge that was originally used on the carved top Les Paul. So, in order to make the work they had to tilt the neck on the SG. Unlike on a Fender, the SG neck is at a significant angle. And it is because of that angle that the pickups on 99% of SG guitars are not parallel to the strings. I would say that's a design flaw. Speaking of the SG, is the neck dive a design flaw, too?
I did loosen those strings before removing the bridge pins. Look closely at 8:19 when I say, "Why don't I... remove the string..." and you will see the E6 loosely shake a little bit, as I am turning the tuning peg (off camera). The E6 string does end up flying off a little bit, as I guess I didn't loosen it all the way. But if you look at the removal of the A5 string, at 8:33 you can clearly see that the string is loose. Again, I was turning the tuning pegs off camera, while I was also holding a camera and doing the work with my hands. I don't think I've ever removed any bridge pins without first loosening the strings. Hope this clarifies it.
Would using the bridge pin slotting technique aleviate the issue of the bridge pins pulling forward as more of the tension of the string is held by the bridge plate and not the pin? That is sawing in a groove in the slot towards the soundhole and turning the pins backwards or using unslotted pins. Also, can those cracks be repaired and if so how?
I think that could be one of the viable approaches to improve this situation. I would just add one additional detail to it. If using this approach, I would probably recommend using un-slotted pins that are oversized.
At the time of the recording, two of the pin hole walls were somewhat crushes, as a result of the pins not being at 90 degree. So, enlarging the diameters of the pin holes would clean up the mess. It would also provide a cleaner pin hole walls to receive the pins and increase the contact area.
Although the pins would not be holding the strings, they should be properly seated. In fact, the more I think about this, literally as I am typing, I think this might actually be the best and simplest solution.
I definitely want to pin your comment (no pun intended).
I've been playing guitar for forty years. You have to be realistic here, you get a beautiful mahogany body guitar with an abalone rosette for under £400! I bought one recently and had my local luthier make a few adustments...it's a wonderful guitar for a fraction of the cost of a Taylor or Martin.
When it comes to Harley Benton, there are also concerns about unethical forestry.
Cool review! Very comprhensive review and neat take on the bridge. Lets save same some trees! Great points!!
I love trees. We kind of need them.
That’s why I hate IKEA. Illegally cutting virgin forests in Romania and building furniture that breaks by design.
Thomann is putting out some great looking instruments for the price points they are hitting. I feel like corners have to be cut somewhere and my guess is wood and electronics in the electric guitars. As for the acoustic you examined, the cracking in the bridge was with the grain of the wood. If they rotated the wood 90 degrees before carving it would that have made a difference? Thanks for another excellent deep dive!
I agree that Thomann puts out these instruments are attractive prices. I've seen quite a few of them, recently. I've also done a lot of finishing work on many of them. In essence, customers were paying me to do the type of finishing work that would normally be done on high end boutique builds. In many cases, believe it or not, people paid me more than they paid for the instruments.
I am concerned about the big picture.
These are still cheaply made guitars. There's no way to make guitars cheaply without cutting corners, starting from unethical forestry, exploitation of workers that borders on slave labor and then there's technical aspects of the builds, such as glue joints, wood grain orientation, hardware (see my Harley Benton Progressive Series review video - ua-cam.com/video/5xH5vIXT97I/v-deo.html that shows the sitar buzzing in the cheaply-built Floyd Rose licensed hardware).
To answer your question about wood grain orientation on the bridge, the wood grain needs to run perpendicular to the strings. There are reasons why bridges crack between the bridge pins. In this case, the two recessed parts of the bridge have a lot to do with it, as the recessed parts structurally weaken that part of the bridge. But there are other reasons, too. Perhaps that's a good topic for another video.
Is there a way to fix or replace the bridge relatively easily or at a guitar shop for cheap?
You think there's any way to reinforce to who with a metal or wooden cylinder the pin-holes of the bridge or do I misunderstand how the acoustics of a bridge function?
I'm afraid there is no easy or cheap way to replace the bridge. This is a time consuming high skilled job that requires specialized tools and experience, and every bridge reglue job is different. It is one of the jobs on my price list that generates the lowest revenue per hour, as it is so time consuming. And sometimes you don't know how time consuming it will be until you've removed the bridge and reached the point of no return.
There are in fact bridge pin hole repair plugs available www.stewmac.com/parts-and-hardware/endpins-and-bridge-pins/bridge-pin-hole-repair-plugs/ but, as with any other luthery jobs, one needs specialized tools and experience to get good results.
It is also important to point out that this was a brand new guitar. We should not be doing a bridge replacement nor pin hole repairs on brand new guitars.
I just checked at Thomann and the CLG 650 SM is no longer available. I ordered one a month ago and it is on the way so guess I have ordered the last one. Hope I have not made a major mistake in buying one but I guess I will know in a few weeks. With all the good reviews I have been seeing, I wonder why they have discontinued this model.
Every guitar is different, even if the same make an model. I think guitar reviews are not to be taken literally as the guitar being reviewed is not going to be identical to all the other guitars of the same make and model. I look at each guitar separately.
many similarities with guitars from Cort, where, for example, Ibanez acoustics are also manufactured alongside other brands. I think the Harley Bentons come from Cortek. tens of thousands of Cort guitar models have this bridge design and you don't hear anything negative about it... maybe an isolated case
D'Angelico acoustic guitar also have the same bridge design.
It's a bad design, in my opinion. There's simply less support for the bridge pins. The design does have some benefits, such as lighter weight (which is beneficial for the sound) and also a naturally occurring brake angle of the strings over the saddle (which is also beneficial for the sound). The break angle can be achieved on a conventional bridge by cutting string slots against the holes, but it does result in a heavier bridge.
I think the entire bridge pin design and the actual proportions that we are stuck with is not ideal to begin with.
Insane wisdom Man. Keep it up!
I’m trying.
I like cheap, but you get what you paid for. I expect to tweak (or replace) the nut on a budget guitar but there's nothing you can do about a poor design. I'd like to try one of their parlor models someday.
In the case of this CLC-650 the poor design is the bridge. I wouldn't say there's nothing one can do about it, but for most people the fix is not practical. If I had this guitar and really wanted to fix it, so I could keep it, I could spend the time to remove the bridge, make a new one and glue it in. But for the average person that is not a viable option.
It is also a question, how that bridge was glued, and what kind of glue was used. I have a feeling it was fast curing superglue, as I've seen on dozens of cheap guitars.
I'm actually already planning a video that will clearly show how these bridges are glued in and why it's a problem when it comes to longevity and serviceability of these guitars.
We live in a throw away society. Replacing a bridge on an acoustic is beyond me. If I had to I would plug the holes and redrill forgoing the deep recess.
You’re right, plugging and re-drilling would help. That main recessed area across the back of the bridge would still be there, but at least it would get rid of those completely unnecessary secondary recessed areas inside the pin holes.
谢谢你宝贵的建议 !
There’s an old Chinese proverb, that says… eh, just kidding, LOL.
Thank you, my friend.
They tried to make a stylish bridge instead of a good one.
Like any Harley Benson guitar ever made, this bridge is actually a copy of another manufacturer’s design. I see this kind of bridge design on D’Angelico acoustic guitars, but I am not sure which manufacture actually came up with it.
Shame, would have been a decent guitar if HB didnt corner-cut on the bridge.
It’s not even corner cutting. They just badly designed the bridge.
Instead of the entire recessed area, the holes just need to have string slots, so that the strings can have the proper brake angle over the saddle.
@@GuitarQuackery Corner cutting can manifest in the form of deficient design review / product testing processes, resulting in bad designs advanced into production.
Have you ever encountered similarly bad designs in pro-level multi thousand $ guitars?
@@Iamadoctor6365 Oh, I see. I misunderstood what you meant.
@@GuitarQuackery I realize now that my previous comment was not worded well and could come across as defensive, but it wasn't at all meant to be - and I was genuinely interested whether you encountered such design flaws on expensive guitars.
@@Iamadoctor6365 Oh, I simply misunderstood what you meant, as I usually would think that cutting corners would mean to do things in a way to save money. But they are not saving any money by making those recessed areas. In fact, those are even extra steps in the production of the bridge.
Now regarding your question. I think there are plenty of higher end guitars that have some design flaws.
I always thought that the Gibson SG was not properly designed. When they designed the TOM bridge it was made to work with the Les Paul, which has a carved top. Then they re-designed the Les Paul in 1961 into a flat top guitar (which was later named SG). But they made the mistake of keeping the bridge that was originally used on the carved top Les Paul. So, in order to make the work they had to tilt the neck on the SG. Unlike on a Fender, the SG neck is at a significant angle. And it is because of that angle that the pickups on 99% of SG guitars are not parallel to the strings. I would say that's a design flaw.
Speaking of the SG, is the neck dive a design flaw, too?
Who in their right mind removes bridge pins without loosening the string tension?
I did loosen those strings before removing the bridge pins. Look closely at 8:19 when I say, "Why don't I... remove the string..." and you will see the E6 loosely shake a little bit, as I am turning the tuning peg (off camera). The E6 string does end up flying off a little bit, as I guess I didn't loosen it all the way. But if you look at the removal of the A5 string, at 8:33 you can clearly see that the string is loose.
Again, I was turning the tuning pegs off camera, while I was also holding a camera and doing the work with my hands.
I don't think I've ever removed any bridge pins without first loosening the strings.
Hope this clarifies it.
DAMN this pickguard is ugly!
However, you have to admit that it would look good around the campfire, with people singing songs, while drinking warm beers and eating moldy bread.