Burgundy vs Bordeaux, with Hugh Johnson and Jancis Robinson
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- Опубліковано 22 лип 2015
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Filmed at the Emmanuel Centre on 23rd March 2015.
Among wine lovers, there is no greater divide than that between Burgundy and Bordeaux. These are the world’s most celebrated wine regions, different places producing different styles of wine. What separates them and why the great rivalry?
Many wine buffs believe that Bordeaux is for beginners. It’s a wine that you enjoy before your palate has fully matured and you then move on to the more exquisite pleasures of Burgundy. Bordeaux, say its detractors, is cerebral, like algebra, and is dignified at best. Burgundy, on the other hand, is a wine that makes you dream. As Roald Dahl once wrote, “To drink a Romanée-Conti is like having an orgasm in the mouth and nose at the same time”.
But others disagree. The best red Burgundy is made only from the pinot noir grape and some would argue that there’s not that much going on with it. Bordeaux, its aficionados like to point out, is almost always a blend of grapes that include cabernet sauvignon, merlot, cabernet franc, malbec and petit verdot. It’s a construct, it has detail, you feel more deeply engaged.
And then there’s the business of place - and indeed the business of business. Bordeaux has historically been affluent and attractive to outsiders. In recent times it has become increasingly corporatised and preoccupied with hiking up prices. Burgundy, on the other hand, has always been insular, composed almost entirely of small, family-run farms where the owners roll up their sleeves, get out into the vineyards and make the wines themselves. Why, say Burgundy lovers, would you want to drink a Bordeaux label owned by a man in a Brioni suit, when you could have the romance and authenticity of a wine made by a boot-clad farmer whose family have worked the same plot for generations? But is the ‘soul’ of a wine really so important? Much Bordeaux may nowadays be industrially produced by big business, but isn’t what counts the quality of the wine that comes out of the bottle?
In March 2015 Intelligence Squared brought together Britain’s two giants of wine writing, Hugh Johnson and Jancis Robinson, to go head to head in a debate on the world’s two greatest wines.
The wines:
Burgundy: Sauvigny-les-Beaune 1er Cru, ‘Aux Serpentiers’ 2010, Jean-Baptiste Lebreuil
Bordeaux: Chateau Lalande Borie, 2009, Saint Julien
Bordeaux is a wine-MAKERS region, and Burgundy wine-GROWERS region.
If you want a powerful, artisanal, and consistently delicious wine go for Bordeaux, but if you want an adventurous, intellectually challenging, terrier-focused wine go for Burgundy.
In the bottle, it's hard to say one region is better than the other, but the experience of researching and learning about Burgundy, is a wine nerd's delight.
Isn’t it more the point that Bordeaux reds are Cabernet/Merlot etc blends, but Burgundy red is Pinot Noir? Bordeaux whites are Sav’ Blanc/Semillon blend, but Burgundy whites are Chardonnay - again, not a blend.
I like Hugh Johnsons approach. Didn't try and make it a competition.
Awesome topic!
Rog volley Yeah, awesomely pretencious and trivial.
Michio Flanders someone's got their head up their ass.....
It's "awesome" that you used the word awesome in its correct usage. Surely you can't be an American? If you are, it's a fluke that you got it right, ho-hum.
An argument that can never be won
Exotic Wine Travel q
Why choose? Try both, all the time.
Great Approach!!
Because the fun is in the debate that’s why and the obvious point is they are both great.
@@MarlboroughBlenheim1 I agree, but both are champions for me.
Burgundy vs Bordeaux is like choosing between your son and daughter, both are different, both can be brilliant, both can be disappointing, vive la difference.
Haha "both can be disappointing" xD
Your analogy is good to a point - except for one obvious difference - you don’t love your children as much as a good claret.
@@MarlboroughBlenheim1 lol.
I think this is a great topic and a lively conversation, and both presenters did a fantastic job. That being said, if you're choosing a LB Bordeaux to present your argument (which you absolutely would), you shouldn't bring a 6yr old vintage to make your argument, even if it's price point is under $70. I would have presented the 2000 vintage. JMO.
I'm also a huge fan of Hugh's Napa Cab review. I have one California Cab investment wine in my cellar (2013), because it has 50+yrs of aging potential, and I'm counting on California to fall into the ocean, making my Cali Cab sentimentally priceless.
Bordeaux is the king of wines. Burgundy is the queen. says it all.
What does this mean?
*Barolo has entered the chat*
this is not what I expected ... i thought it would be a look at the wines, but actually it a look at the wine systems in place by either wine region. Gives a good insite for consumers to understand more about wine then they would usually be able too.
Nic.
Jancis 👍👍👍❤❤❤
Jancis commented on the beauty of the rolling hills of Burgundy and said that makes a difference. The silly man in the middle laughed it off that the flat land or the hills of the regions don’t make a difference. Well, they do, they make all the difference.
I love to see how they skip questions 45:00 😄😄😄
My opinion: Burgundy is simply more fascinating and does deliver red wines that can make you shiver. Great Burgundies' are capable of long aging, and compensate with high intensity and elegance what they might lack in body. It should be noted, however, that those wines are very rare to find and mostly come at a fortune. They are the exception, not the rule. No other wine region in the world led me to such disappointments as Burgundy: I have spent 20-30-40 $ on wines which were watery at best. The opposite is true of Bordeaux, where one can not only find excellent wines in the 15-20$ range, but will hardly be disappointed when spending larger sums. Therefore, I conclude that my heart wants to vote for Burgundy, whereas my brain prefers Bordeaux. If only the prices for Burgundy would be more honest and reflective of the actual quality of the wine, then there would be no match. But money does play a role and while I could afford drinking regularly Bordeaux, I certainly cannot think the same of Burgundies. And on a side note: Bordeaux's white wines can be stellar. Try them!
‘Who are you buying it from “ how on earth can one know who best to buy from?
Id have joined the debate team back in highschool if i knew then what i know now.
corton charlemagne my best !!
2013, Louis Jadot
Great stuff!! Bordeaux all the way!!!
Could anyone tell me what did the host say about his favorite white wine? Jancis and Hugh both chose Riesling. Thanks!
Condrieu (Northern Rhone, Viognier)
@Putnam Weekley Many thanks!
@@JenCfilm Many thanks!
SPOLERS!!
Initial voting: Burgundy: 45% | Bordeaux: 35% | Undecided: 20%
Final voting: Burgundy: 55% | Bordeaux: 44% | Undecided: 1%
I thought Robinson made a more convincing case. Her's was a more theoretical plight that pointed out the imperialistic flaws to the Bordeaux region - and how Burgundy marches more to their own beat. Perhaps she benefited from getting to "go" second... Nonetheless, bravo to both, a great discussion!!
Kyle Eggemeyer a
To me the answer is very simple: it's masculine vs feminine. But which is which? Answers on a postcard, please.
Red Bordeaux and white Burgundy for me. Pinot Noir is not a favourite grape of mine.
See, I'd rather drink red Burgundy and white Bordeaux. Isn't wine wonderful?
It's like everything else in life it's what you like.
I enjoy the circular debate regarding both regions improving, getting better all the time while at the same time saying that new world wines are somehow catching up... There are no BAD vintages in Australian wine making so even the basic stuff is good and the excellent stuff is up there with the best. Save your money and just buy Aussie wine :p
Real? One is Better then the other? Not true. They are different. Enjoy both.
Only a personal taste. There is no way to compete with such different products.
It's just like choosing between fender vs gibson, ferrari x lamborghini and so on
I can't afford Italian luxury supercars but I can relate to the electic guitars hahaha... Why not have both?
The most pointless debate on intelligence sq, but also one of the most entertaining!
And therefore not pointless afterall!
Burgundy too is a mongrel. In fact, nearly every vineyard in France uses grafted vines thanks to The Great Blight (phylloxera) in the mid 19th century. VERY few French wines come from pure vines.
+Ashley Hyatt It's been redundantly shown that this either does not affect the wine, or is so low down on the totem pole of variables as to be essentially non-affective. It's pure romantic nonsense that you think the grafting of other rootstock matters.
+Brandon Smoot Didn't say one thing about it affecting the wines myself, so no nonsense on this end. Whether grafting matters, well try telling that to the dozens of vineyards that chose to close rather than save their vines through grafting. It may not have affected the wine taste, quality, etc. but it certainly affected the image of old stock purity.
+Ashley Hyatt Yes, I've visited several vineyards. The idea of purity greatly affects image and price. Many tasters claim there is a noticeable difference.
I just love how Smoot is trying to use big people words. "Redundantly shown" huh? Probably not. Try "abundantly" next time.
+Nathan Caravaggio uh, no. You can certainly prove something redundantly. The difference is in the intent and degree. 'Abundantly' would mean that enough proof was raised to meet the right standard, even a high standard. 'Redundantly' would mean that standard was meet, and then re-meet, many times over. Suggesting both a much greater body of evidence [degree]...and a chronology of repeated, revisited efforts over an era [intent].
+Ashley Hyatt of course you implied that. Be honest here. But it appears you really wanted to make a positively bizarre claim about ethereal 'purity'. Seriously, if the wine is not impacted, and you are only claiming concern over "image"...that's just...a uniquely weird preoccupation with...what? Axiomatic botanical supremacy I suppose.
I'm I the only one who is annoyed by the mis-placed of their seating....should be Bordeaux vs Burgundy on the backdrop
As if the pricing in burgundy is attractive to young drinkers.. Nah a good PQR (concerning Europe) is found in Sud-Ouest, Languedoc-Roussillon, Italy, Germany, croatia and more on that side of Europe.
Forgot Spain and Portugal
What is the name of the show host? His accent is superb
Jancis totally amazing with language and speaking .. not saying she's right , I don't know
Good speakers interesting topic but this is a silly debate. You can’t compare the two. Apples and oranges. They both have their place. Both regions always seem to me to be overpriced unless you know where to look.
I disagree on that. You can find good Bordeaux at an affordable price. Never, and I repeat never, will you find a decent Pinot Noir under the 25-30$ range. A delicious, elegant Bordeaux will cost you around 35$ at the store, while you will have to pay around 50$ for the same level in Burgundy. If you want a top Chateau, you will pay 300-500 $, very expensive, but still affordable, if you are into wine collecting. Try and buy a top Burgundy (Romanee-Conti, Richebourg, Grand Echesaux) : you will have to pay 3 times as much.
@@amoreazione3563 Good Bordeaux at affordable prices? You must be joking. At 35$ you will only find average wines, nothing special and clearly overpriced...I'm not even going to talk about burgundy, instead I will suggest you to go spend a third of that (12$) in decent bottle of Rioja or Ribera del Duero in order to get the same or even better quality. In Rioja at the 35$ range you will be getting Bordeaux second growth quality, or even first in a good vintage.
Conclusion: Do not drink french wine(unless you willing to hurt your wallet)is expensive for what it is.
@@pedrovergaraurquijo8551 there are affordable Bordeaux and I can name you two of them off the top of my head: Chateau Potensac and Chateau Coucheroy. They are both below 30 euros a bottle, but they are obviously not cheap if compared to a Spanish wine. Ribera del Duero is one of my favorite regions, particularly the wines that come from the higher elevations which are less coarse and more acidic
@@amoreazione3563 Chateau Potensac and Chateau Coucheroy have an average critic´s score of 89/100 and 86/100 respectively in wine searcher. Yes, they might be affordable but clearly they are not worth the 35$ they cost.
For the same price I suggest you to go buy a bottle of Muga Selección Especial from Rioja or a San Román from Toro they average 93/100 and 94/100 points.
In order to find that acidity balance you were talking about I´ll recommend you to seek for good vintages rather than vineyard location. 2015, 2016, 2011,2010,2005 and 2004 may be good examples.
regards,
@@pedrovergaraurquijo8551 have you tried Dominio de Atauta? And Protos 27?
I mostly drink Spanish reds from Ribera, Rioja and Bierzo regions; and German Gewürztraminer and Riesling white wines, but when I do drink French, I like Beaujolais, Côtes du Rhône reds and northern Rhône Viognier and Alsace whites.
I was just beginning to despair of you, sir or madame, then you mentioned Alsace whites. What a relief...
That's a rough group of wines IMO
@@rogerlephoque3704 Is that sarcasm?? Haha
@@aitornavarro6597 Cheers! Mine's a pint of Krug, squire...
this should never be on intelligence squared
I just clicked to add my two cents. What a ridiculous video and title. There is absolutely no comparison in these regions. Each does what the other simply cannot and very well indeed.
That's basically the brand of these debates.
Two equal and radically distinct greats in a field squaring off.
There's one on Verdi vs Wagner too, and that's great too.
Much more one sided though; but I won't tell you who won!
Next video will be about something even more trivial. Vanilla vs Chocolate ice cream or maybe cashmere vs silk if you want to get more highbrow.
Overonator I will defend vanilla and silk to the death. Preferably together.
TheMangoDeluxe
I will defend chocolate and cashmere by killing everyone who disagrees, then I will be RIGHT when there is no one LEFT.
Overonator Not every debating topic has to be so serious. Lighten the fuck up.
DarKool81
Fine consider me lightened.
+Overonator There is always a bigger issue. If we start with the precept that we can only discuss the most important matters, virtually no conversations might ever be begun. Moreover debate-forums are perhaps best suited to mid-range subjects, as the subjects with the grandest scope are more in need of a library of competing tomes than a cluster of orators.
Regardless, calling this particular example "trivial" is odd indeed. Not many things have been as influential to the wine world as Burgundy and Bordeaux, and few things have been of such importance to human civilization as wine. Love it or care less...wine is culture, economy, agriculture, hygiene, craft, leisure and gastronomy in one.
Roux Jr really is ham. He's a bit lost without histrionic backing music and voice-overs a la MasterChef.
*HAM... what is a H A M? Who is asking? Bangkok-Johnnie, of course!* ua-cam.com/video/3EGoIZi4zy8/v-deo.html
Rioja !
It's funny in a satirical way and insufferably snobby. But I get it's part of the industry. I did enjoy it I think. I guess my feelings are that most of these people are so far removed from the process and art of wine-making that it's sort of like listening to radio-hosts that spin up top 40 all day and asking them to speak about how Hendrix was important to rock and roll and blues. Like you might get a decent answer? But to use their vernacular, "don't count on it." Imo, you want to debate these questions, forget the "writers" and go to the wineries. There's a debate.
Most connoisseurs know that mixed wine is best, but does take decades to mature. Who has the time or the money? Burgundy wins with vintages under 15 years old and Bordeaux wins with vintages over 25 years old. So the best competition would be in the middle around twenty years old, and that's still expensive. 1997 Domaine de la Romanee-Conti Romanee-Conti Grand Cru is about $14,000 a bottle and a 1997 Chateau Mouton is about $250 a bottle. The Burgundy is rated 2 points better at 97, so I guess it wins on taste, but I'd rather have a case or two of the Mouton. I'll take my $12 Mouton Cadet and that's Bordeaux, baby!
That's a very bizarre way of thinking about wine in general. Even on a points scale, DRC vs Mouton R. is a kind of a joke comparison.
boring... they didn't prepare themselves, nor they discussed any technical or recent-historical aspects.
jancis talked more about bordeaux than about burgundy.. and talked more about other things than the tasting elements of the very wine itself. actually sh e said almost nothing about burgundy wine itself.
that poor guy's childhood:
"dad grabbed me", "dad forced me"
Anyone forced to drink d’Yquem is beyond sympathy
Janice was right. Nowadays Burgundy are the most expensive wines on earth on the secondary market. There’s not one domaine who sold their house to china.
Whilst bordeaux sold their houses& souls.
Fascinating discussion about 2 great wine regions in France but the moderator was a complete ass which ruined it for me.....................................
Bordeaux is the king of wines , no comparison, ill take a Chateau Margaux over a Romanee Conti any day of the week
When people ask me: "Burgundy or Bordeaux?" I always respond: "Rioja!".
As for the debate I knew that Burgundy would win, and not because I think Burgundy is better than Bordeaux (or vice versa) but because Jancis is a way more charming and bright commentator than Hugh.
+deck444 Your last statement is nonsense. They're equally charming and bright; Hugh's wit is slightly drier, that's all. Burgundy gained only one percent more on the second vote.
Nigella Like with wine, it all comes down to preference I guess.
Man with high tastes and low income i see.
deck444 I've been staring at a bottle of 2005 La Rioja Alta GR 904 all weekend, trying to remind myself that it's for a special occasion. LOL
This event (the audience) proofs again wine is mostly for old wine nerds in old-fashioned suits. And I prefer Coke instead of Sprite....
When I spew up in the morning after three bottles of claret the night before my vomit definitely has the "terroir" of the Gironde Valley.
c l a s s
An Englishman who criticizes American food makes you laugh more than food itself. How is your food instead? 😂
Taint and oxidation, elephant in the room, no mention of screwcap
Actually, both of them are sadly mistaken: Italian wines are absolutely the cream of the crop; especially, the top Brunello's, the Barolo's, and the Barbaresco's. But that's not all, there are also unbeatable Primitivo di Manduria, Aglianico del Vulture ..........
DMM No kidding! Just like this video only showcases their personal tastes, as well.
smartdave599 There are?! 😳 Anything worth drinking or just glorified poolside piss water?
Just like you pissing on everything that doesn't fit your taste.
They are not mistaken, its still the same old story. When it comes to the top-of-the-line-wines, nothing out of france can compete, save for the white wines, where Rieslings are the top-of-the-line.
Sure, Brunellos or Barolos are mighty fine wines, and Sangiovese is actually my favorite grape variety. But not even legends like the Tignaello or Sassicaia can really compete to the top wines from france.
If it comes to wines below 50€ however, I think you certainly have a grain of truth, at least if we speak of tuscany and everything north of it.
09:00 "[Bordeaux] was actually designed for this market, the English market."
My preference for Burgundy is making more sense all the time.
Horrible job by debate moderator
Why do you say that? Injecting his opinion too much?
And if you have to know that it proves much of it is poor
napa spanked french wines in 1976 and 2006 complete snobs
Both of them are overrated definitely.
Some are good some are horrible...
What about portuguese wines? Yes, the top portuguese wines,not Port Wines...but Alentejo or Dão wines?
What about Georgia wines?
What about Lebanon wines?
What about Chile or Argentina wines...???
What about new Zealand or Australian wines???
Bordeux wins for me..
both are extremely overrated and one is insanely overpriced. both are amazing regions though. also fascinating how Britain has the loudest voice when it comes to wine and absolutely no wine culture of their own😅
A Great burgundy is always worse than an average premier cru de Bourgogne. Not even close, sorry.
Burgundy = Bourgogne. What are you talking about?