As someone who adored/adores the MGS series but never got around to taking in the community's thoughts, theories or opinions on the franchise, I have to say that your four videos on the games were nothing less than what I have come to expect from your channel (the time period of when they were done factored into any "issues"). They got me to consider things I hadn't before, considered things in more depth that I had, and basically were some great ruminations of the games. I'm not sure if you still worry about not having anything new to add to a product's discussion but I think past Arche forgot something important. It's not just what you say but how you say it and the /how/ you deliver a lot of your information is very much a key part to what makes the Lorerunner who he is.
Thankyou for starting on this, Arch. Please don't worry about the opinionated people who will take issue with your' opinion. I am very excited to hear your' views on this series. Not "even if", but "especially if" your' opinion differs from mine. Although I am a little saddened you'll be playing the re-make of MGS, and not the original..there we go with opinions again, in my personal opinion, the original is a superior game. But it doesn't matter because I am genuinely excited to hear your thoughts, either way. thanks for the hours of entertainment and the heaps of perspective.
This may sound weird but I actually rather like Armstrong both as a character and as a villain. His motivations make a huge amount of sense to me, especially in the wake of 4.
i havent played any of the MGS game, back in the times of PS1 my money was heavily limited and while my money is in a better situation now i find that im now limited on time and my steam Library is creeping closer and closer to the 300 mark (most of them unplayed but on the list)
Finally MGS ruminations! Hey, Arch, I´ve got an observation about MGS4. Remember that the Gekos sound like cows. Well, I think there is a hidden meaning behind it. If you connect that sound to the fact that Snake enters the battlefield in the back of a truck suggests that him and the others soldiers are cattle. Think about it, he enters in the back of a truck and when he joins the troups we hear the cow sound. Then in level 2 he goes across green pastures like cattle being fed, and Naomi tells him he has an expiration date, as if he was food. Then in level 3 he gets burn like a cow being branded and he discover Solidus body inside a package that looks exactly like a meat package. Then he goes into a frozen facility very much like a meatlocker. And finnaly in the last level he has to literally get kooked inside a giant microwave. And after all this Sunny has the eggs ready to eat. What do you think? I call this the Snake is Cattle theory. I hope you like it and use it in your ruminations.
It is great that you are doing this series, I feel this series is very inteligent and deep, great for ruminations. I really hope you get to do peace walker and 5 in the future. Thanks for doing this series.
You are spot-on about MGS 2. It was a parody of the fans and their expectations. This isn't the first time I've heard someone mention it. When you examine the game in-depth, it becomes more apparent. At the time Kojima was done with Metal Gear, but he created something too big to escape. Fan expectations were enormous, and I believe Kojima tried to set it up to end the series as a metaphorical middle finger. This may sound like I hate MGS 2, but that is false. I actually really like the game, but it took many years to understand and appreciate it.
I am so excited to see what's your opinion on these games as I have very much enjoyed every single one of your ruminations as well as your oblivion role play videos.
In Poland the first MGS was a big deal, all of them actually. There was this magazine PSXExtreme and those guys had a lot of special interviews with Kojima.
About MGS: Peace Walker, the console ports are imo the true versions of this game. While the content is identical, the 60fps and proper controls and online play turn the game from a boring slog with a cool story to a fun, enjoyable and surprising one. A large part of that game is and having one or a few friends playing at the same pace and having matchmaking for bosses. The game imho is missing it's soul without that.
well, much like resident evil revelations, the game was made for portables so it works better in portables, sure, it "feels" better on a console, but it flows better on a portable, besides, the PSP version was made with sony's officially tunneling software in mind and the vita version can use the second analog for aiming, so that works out in the end
brunocar "sure, it [...]feels[...] better on a console, but it flows better on a portable" - what is this even supposed to mean? Isn't "flow" something you FEEL in the first place? ... But what does "flowing" actually mean? Nothing substantial whatsoever. "the game was made for portables so it works better in portables" - WHY? That's a (pretty dumb, to be honest) thesis, not a fact. You didn't elaborate on WHY that would be the case. The way you try to verify this statement is by referring to ITSELF in the attempt of a verification ["that is so (right or wrong) because it is that way] xD Honestly: useless comment; keep it to yourself next time.
Arch, after the Phantom Pain comes out, and you've had time to play through and (for lack of a better word) ruminate on the other games on your own, will you do a rumination series on "Story Arc 2" of the MGS series, as you've called it?
So far, I feel you've done good MGS Ruminations(with this vid and MGS1), though I have only watched one other channel that critiqued the console titles in a way I like a lot(made me look at MGS2 in a totally different way). I won't mention him 'till much later though.
Love that you're doing this Arch! May I ask you a quick question? What did you mean by saying you played the proper Metal Gear Solid remake? I thought there was only one remake?
I've talked about this extensively, mostly on my stream though I've done some videos about it as well, but put simply; the word 'remake' is thrown around a bit too much for my tastes so I came up with my own terms. In order of quality; a port, a remake, a Proper Remake, and a True Remake. Most games that are just 'remakes' only barely qualify, with minor changes and whatnot.
Wait, when you say Metal Gear 2 is kind of a crap game, do you mean "Snake's Revenge" for the NES, that had no input from Kojima at all or "Metal Gear 2: Solid Snake" for the MSX2, that was developed by Kojima when he learned that that abomination on the NES existed?
Don't worry about expectations arch. I just want to hear your honest opinion on these games with your style that you do so well. I've heard others and now I want to know yours. It's what I'm here for. 😉
On the expectation thing, i have a bit of an opinion on that when it concerns MGS. I mean, sure, 2 got ripped to shreds because Raiden, but honestly, the team had to have seen that coming; and that was not an oversight, not a slipup, not the team getting tired. Raiden was a very conscious and deliberate decision that they ran all the way with. And Raiden aside, let's be honest here, was the game really that good from a writing standpoint? I mean, gameplay-wise it was a good improvement, and had a lot of good stuff going for it, no doubt about it, but for a game that's as story driven as that one, to have that kind of excuse for a plot, even discounting all the late-game weirdness, is just not up to standard. And yet, where's the fan outcry over that? All the fans raged about as the girly little poser pretending to be Snake - rightly so, after you find out that the reason for him was Kojima going over to a bunch of high-school girls and asking them whether they found Snake appealing or not. It wasn't even an artistic decision (distorted from emotional breakdown or not), it was a marketing one, based, of all things, on people totally outside your target audience. No really, how are loyal, money-spending fans supposed to feel when the game they were waiting to spend more money on had been made not with them in mind, but with a group they couldn't identify with if they tried? Sorry, that last paragraph was a tangent (one i spent too much time on to just delete now, so there). Point is, that was the one thing people raged about, while ignoring all the game's many other flaws. Why? Because Metal Gear. Because Kojima. MGS4 was no different. I mean, even discounting that you can easily run that game in half the time it takes you to watch all those cutscenes, did i just pay €60+ for a supposed conclusion to a saga, that consists of 1 part action, 1 part corny humor, 2 parts screwing around, a metric crapton of stupid melodrama and the worst emo verbal diarrhea since that thing about the sparkly vampires? I mean, the graphics were very pretty, sure enough, and good thing too because the reviewers had to cling to SOMETHING to give that game high scores. And it got high scored, it got them by the truckload. People were lauding it as their favorite game not two weeks after having played it. Now i'm not the kind of person who will have a strong opinion about something anytime soon after having experienced it. I normally gotta digest it first, and all (case in point, the wall of text you're trudging through right now). But i was flabbergasted right off the bat, at the insane praise this game was getting. Now, would it have been the case if it wasn't Metal Gear? Would it really have gotten the mega-pass that it did from critics and fans alike? I'm usually reserved in my conclusions, and don't really like being this assertive on things i cannot prove, but no. Not in a million years would THAT game have gotten that ridiculous kind of acclaim had it not borne the name it did, or that of it's maker. So yeah, hope you enjoyed the read.
The quality of writing in the series is what it is, and at this point, I don't think gamers can expect anything more. The writing isn't amazing, but it is in no way horrendous. There are dozens of games, novels, and films that are written more poorly than the MGS series, which makes up for the writing with some really great ideas. Also, a lot of what we call melodrama today is not considered as such by the Japanese. If you've seen any Japanese anime or movies made in the past thirty or so years you would know this. "High Art" in Japanese media is not something that's frequently seen nowadays. MGS. It's a Japanese thing. And it's also a Japanese interpretation of American ideals, concepts, etc.
Nexus Verbal True, but sometimes i wonder whether the fault lies with the execution or the idea itself. MGS2 had too many things in place from the very beginning that were just... well, questionable. And MGS4's inability to shut up for two seconds... i dunno, there's bad writing, and there's THAT. As for the melodrama thing, you're right, and it's the reason i've banished a lot of anime from my existence as i got older, but i think there's a huge difference from Dragonball, Captain Tsubasa and Yamato, and the kind of vapid, self-pretentious crap that's aired today. The former had a sincerity about it's corniness that made it very much enjoyable; the latter is the japanese kardashians. I'll point out that's not a universal thing for them either. There are a lot japanese authors and directors who have managed to kick that abomination right out of the window (Takeshi Kitano, Tsutomu Nihei, Yuki Urushibara) and come out all the better for it. Sure, it's not the standard, and maybe that's why it's good. You'd have to go into actual japanese society in order to go any deeper into the subject, though, and no way i'm opening that can of worms on youtube.
Regards to repeating analysis of others, don't worry about it, I wanna hear how yours pans out. While I like this and I am a big supporter of pushing the envelope in general, I am a little worried MGSV will push the squik factor too hard, based on things suggested by interviews, the game's theme and what has been shown in trailers which is already quite bad. Especially considering Ground Zeroes (the main campaign), which already has a very strong sense of unease, corruption, complacency by guards and immense immorality (save the 'primary' hostage without getting the others and watch Snake's reaction) through the entire 1hr trek, not to mention the tapes which... don't listen to them trust me. XD
Great series of ruminations but the details of Kojima's issue's are a little off. It was MGS4 when he had a breakdown not MGS2. I think your interpretation of MGS2 is a interesting one.
MGS is one of those franchises I try to get into every once in a while, and each time I do it just seems like a worse and worse prospect. Nowmim at the point where I won't even consider playing one. I started with MGS2, and kind of liked the stealth gameplay but gave up on it once it became apparent it wanted to try and have action game bosses. Ulgh. Then I tried MGS4, and loved the little gameplay I could find sandwiched in between overly long, tedious and horridly written cutscenes... up until the point I where I had to suffer through a bunch of poop jokes culminating in some random look with diahrea soiling himself. Violently. And more recently I briefly entertained the idea of trying to play Ground Zeroes, only to learn a major part of its trailer-sized story is a very graphic, violent gang rape scene. So, yeah: I'm done trying. I'll concede the series may have some good gameplay, but that hardly matters to me when the context of that play is so blatantly, actively terrible.
***** I suppose... And not that I think rape isn't worse, but for some reason story-related killings in previous MGS games is easier to swallow. That's American culture for ya(me), I guess. Also video game culture(killing baddies a common way to progress).
***** Gratuitous violence is part of the campy spy genre, though. Sexual violence is not. The disconnect is jarring. It's like seeing a photorealistic God-of-War style decapitation in a Kirby game. The juxtaposition just makes a bad thing -worse-.
***** I think I see what you're saying, though I'll have to look up camp later(or a Super Bunny Hop vid; good MGS stuff). There will probably be more jarring stuff since Kojima is trying to tell a darker story, though. The enemies don't have masks like previous games, for instance, in GZ but pretty detailed faces to humanize them(my observation).
As someone who adored/adores the MGS series but never got around to taking in the community's thoughts, theories or opinions on the franchise, I have to say that your four videos on the games were nothing less than what I have come to expect from your channel (the time period of when they were done factored into any "issues"). They got me to consider things I hadn't before, considered things in more depth that I had, and basically were some great ruminations of the games.
I'm not sure if you still worry about not having anything new to add to a product's discussion but I think past Arche forgot something important. It's not just what you say but how you say it and the /how/ you deliver a lot of your information is very much a key part to what makes the Lorerunner who he is.
Thankyou for starting on this, Arch. Please don't worry about the opinionated people who will take issue with your' opinion. I am very excited to hear your' views on this series. Not "even if", but "especially if" your' opinion differs from mine. Although I am a little saddened you'll be playing the re-make of MGS, and not the original..there we go with opinions again, in my personal opinion, the original is a superior game. But it doesn't matter because I am genuinely excited to hear your thoughts, either way. thanks for the hours of entertainment and the heaps of perspective.
ok so the plot of Metal Gear Rising Revengeance boils down to “Nanomachines, Son” and Rules Of Nature.
This may sound weird but I actually rather like Armstrong both as a character and as a villain. His motivations make a huge amount of sense to me, especially in the wake of 4.
Archengeia Not to mention the codec conversations flesh out the world and characters to a RIDICULOUS degree.
i havent played any of the MGS game, back in the times of PS1 my money was heavily limited and while my money is in a better situation now i find that im now limited on time and my steam Library is creeping closer and closer to the 300 mark (most of them unplayed but on the list)
So does MGS4, lol
Don't compare the spin off with MGS4, please.
You have a viewpoint that nobody else touches. I am super excited to listen to these
Finally MGS ruminations! Hey, Arch, I´ve got an observation about MGS4. Remember that the Gekos sound like cows. Well, I think there is a hidden meaning behind it. If you connect that sound to the fact that Snake enters the battlefield in the back of a truck suggests that him and the others soldiers are cattle. Think about it, he enters in the back of a truck and when he joins the troups we hear the cow sound. Then in level 2 he goes across green pastures like cattle being fed, and Naomi tells him he has an expiration date, as if he was food. Then in level 3 he gets burn like a cow being branded and he discover Solidus body inside a package that looks exactly like a meat package. Then he goes into a frozen facility very much like a meatlocker. And finnaly in the last level he has to literally get kooked inside a giant microwave. And after all this Sunny has the eggs ready to eat. What do you think? I call this the Snake is Cattle theory. I hope you like it and use it in your ruminations.
Wow. Just WOW. I think it's a stretch, but wow.
Been loving the ruminations, regardless of the game! Perfect for listening to podcast style. Keep up the good work dude.
It is great that you are doing this series, I feel this series is very inteligent and deep, great for ruminations. I really hope you get to do peace walker and 5 in the future. Thanks for doing this series.
I've been waiting for months, perhaps years for a Metal Gear Solid Rumination. I've so happy it's now a series. Can't wait to look forward.
You are spot-on about MGS 2. It was a parody of the fans and their expectations. This isn't the first time I've heard someone mention it. When you examine the game in-depth, it becomes more apparent. At the time Kojima was done with Metal Gear, but he created something too big to escape. Fan expectations were enormous, and I believe Kojima tried to set it up to end the series as a metaphorical middle finger.
This may sound like I hate MGS 2, but that is false. I actually really like the game, but it took many years to understand and appreciate it.
I haven't actually played the MG series so your discussions will be a good way for me to get into it.
I am so excited to see what's your opinion on these games as I have very much enjoyed every single one of your ruminations as well as your oblivion role play videos.
In Poland the first MGS was a big deal, all of them actually. There was this magazine PSXExtreme and those guys had a lot of special interviews with Kojima.
Thanks for the intro to this series.
Archengeia, thank you for existing. I know you're not responsible for that. But still. This is definately my favorite part of youtube.
About MGS: Peace Walker, the console ports are imo the true versions of this game. While the content is identical, the 60fps and proper controls and online play turn the game from a boring slog with a cool story to a fun, enjoyable and surprising one. A large part of that game is and having one or a few friends playing at the same pace and having matchmaking for bosses. The game imho is missing it's soul without that.
well, much like resident evil revelations, the game was made for portables so it works better in portables, sure, it "feels" better on a console, but it flows better on a portable, besides, the PSP version was made with sony's officially tunneling software in mind and the vita version can use the second analog for aiming, so that works out in the end
brunocar
"sure, it [...]feels[...] better on a console, but it flows better on a portable" - what is this even supposed to mean? Isn't "flow" something you FEEL in the first place? ... But what does "flowing" actually mean? Nothing substantial whatsoever.
"the game was made for portables so it works better in portables" - WHY? That's a (pretty dumb, to be honest) thesis, not a fact. You didn't elaborate on WHY that would be the case. The way you try to verify this statement is by referring to ITSELF in the attempt of a verification ["that is so (right or wrong) because it is that way] xD
Honestly: useless comment; keep it to yourself next time.
Metal Gear!?
Awesome, I've been wanting to see you review these games.
been waiting for this for a LONG time
Arch, after the Phantom Pain comes out, and you've had time to play through and (for lack of a better word) ruminate on the other games on your own, will you do a rumination series on "Story Arc 2" of the MGS series, as you've called it?
Possibly.
Lorerunner Please do!
So far, I feel you've done good MGS Ruminations(with this vid and MGS1), though I have only watched one other channel that critiqued the console titles in a way I like a lot(made me look at MGS2 in a totally different way). I won't mention him 'till much later though.
Love that you're doing this Arch!
May I ask you a quick question?
What did you mean by saying you played the proper Metal Gear Solid remake? I thought there was only one remake?
I've talked about this extensively, mostly on my stream though I've done some videos about it as well, but put simply; the word 'remake' is thrown around a bit too much for my tastes so I came up with my own terms. In order of quality; a port, a remake, a Proper Remake, and a True Remake. Most games that are just 'remakes' only barely qualify, with minor changes and whatnot.
Archengeia
Ah, now I see what you mean. I thought you were implying there were actually 2 remakes.
Thanks for the quick answer Arch, appreciate it.
Wait, when you say Metal Gear 2 is kind of a crap game, do you mean "Snake's Revenge" for the NES, that had no input from Kojima at all or "Metal Gear 2: Solid Snake" for the MSX2, that was developed by Kojima when he learned that that abomination on the NES existed?
The former.
Are you going to do any more MGS videos ?
MGS1 dominated charts in the U.K at release !
Don't worry about expectations arch. I just want to hear your honest opinion on these games with your style that you do so well. I've heard others and now I want to know yours. It's what I'm here for. 😉
On the expectation thing, i have a bit of an opinion on that when it concerns MGS. I mean, sure, 2 got ripped to shreds because Raiden, but honestly, the team had to have seen that coming; and that was not an oversight, not a slipup, not the team getting tired. Raiden was a very conscious and deliberate decision that they ran all the way with. And Raiden aside, let's be honest here, was the game really that good from a writing standpoint? I mean, gameplay-wise it was a good improvement, and had a lot of good stuff going for it, no doubt about it, but for a game that's as story driven as that one, to have that kind of excuse for a plot, even discounting all the late-game weirdness, is just not up to standard.
And yet, where's the fan outcry over that? All the fans raged about as the girly little poser pretending to be Snake - rightly so, after you find out that the reason for him was Kojima going over to a bunch of high-school girls and asking them whether they found Snake appealing or not. It wasn't even an artistic decision (distorted from emotional breakdown or not), it was a marketing one, based, of all things, on people totally outside your target audience. No really, how are loyal, money-spending fans supposed to feel when the game they were waiting to spend more money on had been made not with them in mind, but with a group they couldn't identify with if they tried?
Sorry, that last paragraph was a tangent (one i spent too much time on to just delete now, so there).
Point is, that was the one thing people raged about, while ignoring all the game's many other flaws. Why? Because Metal Gear. Because Kojima.
MGS4 was no different. I mean, even discounting that you can easily run that game in half the time it takes you to watch all those cutscenes, did i just pay €60+ for a supposed conclusion to a saga, that consists of 1 part action, 1 part corny humor, 2 parts screwing around, a metric crapton of stupid melodrama and the worst emo verbal diarrhea since that thing about the sparkly vampires? I mean, the graphics were very pretty, sure enough, and good thing too because the reviewers had to cling to SOMETHING to give that game high scores. And it got high scored, it got them by the truckload. People were lauding it as their favorite game not two weeks after having played it.
Now i'm not the kind of person who will have a strong opinion about something anytime soon after having experienced it. I normally gotta digest it first, and all (case in point, the wall of text you're trudging through right now). But i was flabbergasted right off the bat, at the insane praise this game was getting.
Now, would it have been the case if it wasn't Metal Gear? Would it really have gotten the mega-pass that it did from critics and fans alike?
I'm usually reserved in my conclusions, and don't really like being this assertive on things i cannot prove, but no. Not in a million years would THAT game have gotten that ridiculous kind of acclaim had it not borne the name it did, or that of it's maker.
So yeah, hope you enjoyed the read.
The quality of writing in the series is what it is, and at this point, I don't think gamers can expect anything more. The writing isn't amazing, but it is in no way horrendous. There are dozens of games, novels, and films that are written more poorly than the MGS series, which makes up for the writing with some really great ideas.
Also, a lot of what we call melodrama today is not considered as such by the Japanese. If you've seen any Japanese anime or movies made in the past thirty or so years you would know this. "High Art" in Japanese media is not something that's frequently seen nowadays. MGS. It's a Japanese thing. And it's also a Japanese interpretation of American ideals, concepts, etc.
Nexus Verbal True, but sometimes i wonder whether the fault lies with the execution or the idea itself. MGS2 had too many things in place from the very beginning that were just... well, questionable. And MGS4's inability to shut up for two seconds... i dunno, there's bad writing, and there's THAT.
As for the melodrama thing, you're right, and it's the reason i've banished a lot of anime from my existence as i got older, but i think there's a huge difference from Dragonball, Captain Tsubasa and Yamato, and the kind of vapid, self-pretentious crap that's aired today. The former had a sincerity about it's corniness that made it very much enjoyable; the latter is the japanese kardashians. I'll point out that's not a universal thing for them either. There are a lot japanese authors and directors who have managed to kick that abomination right out of the window (Takeshi Kitano, Tsutomu Nihei, Yuki Urushibara) and come out all the better for it. Sure, it's not the standard, and maybe that's why it's good. You'd have to go into actual japanese society in order to go any deeper into the subject, though, and no way i'm opening that can of worms on youtube.
Regards to repeating analysis of others, don't worry about it, I wanna hear how yours pans out.
While I like this and I am a big supporter of pushing the envelope in general, I am a little worried MGSV will push the squik factor too hard, based on things suggested by interviews, the game's theme and what has been shown in trailers which is already quite bad. Especially considering Ground Zeroes (the main campaign), which already has a very strong sense of unease, corruption, complacency by guards and immense immorality (save the 'primary' hostage without getting the others and watch Snake's reaction) through the entire 1hr trek, not to mention the tapes which... don't listen to them trust me. XD
You should ruminate on the Tales series
Great series of ruminations but the details of Kojima's issue's are a little off. It was MGS4 when he had a breakdown not MGS2. I think your interpretation of MGS2 is a interesting one.
i had a little hard time with the first game, it was a ok game for me, nice video
I actually loved metal gear rising fun gameplay liked the story just liked about everything
When you say MGSV did something that lowered your enjoyment, did you mean Ground Zeroes?
I would like for you to at least look at Peace Walker.
In the UK, Metal gear solid exploded just like FF7
A 60-second ad? You have got to be ****ing kidding me.
MGS is one of those franchises I try to get into every once in a while, and each time I do it just seems like a worse and worse prospect. Nowmim at the point where I won't even consider playing one. I started with MGS2, and kind of liked the stealth gameplay but gave up on it once it became apparent it wanted to try and have action game bosses. Ulgh. Then I tried MGS4, and loved the little gameplay I could find sandwiched in between overly long, tedious and horridly written cutscenes... up until the point I where I had to suffer through a bunch of poop jokes culminating in some random look with diahrea soiling himself. Violently.
And more recently I briefly entertained the idea of trying to play Ground Zeroes, only to learn a major part of its trailer-sized story is a very graphic, violent gang rape scene.
So, yeah: I'm done trying. I'll concede the series may have some good gameplay, but that hardly matters to me when the context of that play is so blatantly, actively terrible.
About Ground Zeroes' gang rape... It's not a cutscene but an audio tape nor is it as bad as I thought it would've been.
Well, that's... not "better," but "less awful." It's still not something that has ANY place in a campy spy game.
*****
I suppose... And not that I think rape isn't worse, but for some reason story-related killings in previous MGS games is easier to swallow. That's American culture for ya(me), I guess. Also video game culture(killing baddies a common way to progress).
***** Gratuitous violence is part of the campy spy genre, though. Sexual violence is not.
The disconnect is jarring. It's like seeing a photorealistic God-of-War style decapitation in a Kirby game. The juxtaposition just makes a bad thing -worse-.
***** I think I see what you're saying, though I'll have to look up camp later(or a Super Bunny Hop vid; good MGS stuff). There will probably be more jarring stuff since Kojima is trying to tell a darker story, though. The enemies don't have masks like previous games, for instance, in GZ but pretty detailed faces to humanize them(my observation).
"Metal Gear 2 kind of a crap game". This fucking guy.
eandjproductions2 he's refering to the nes version.
mgs 2 is crap