AlNiCo 5: Oriented vs. Unoriented...What's The Difference?
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- Опубліковано 7 лип 2024
- So I've recently been down another rabbit hole...!! I fitted a set of ThroBak PG-102 LTDs into my No. 1 Les Paul - wound with 1950s wire; and everything else as vintage-correct as it's possible to be. We'd expect nothing less from Jon Gundry now, would we...?!
I've generally preferred Alnico 2's in my PAFs over the years - so trying some A5s was a bit of a departure for me. And whilst there were some elements of the A5 sound that I've been enjoying, I found the sizzly, aggressive top end a little bit too much in this particular guitar. So I began thinking - would swapping the magnet help?
I emailed Jon at ThroBak, and he told me that the PG-102s have Oriented A5 magnets in them. Reading on their website, it sounded like switching to an Unoriented A5 might be just the ticket for me...as they're said to sound somewhere in between an A2 and A5, it might give me the girth of the later PAF sound, but with the warmth of the earlier examples. So I popped the order in.
Today, I'm going to take you with me as I experiment with Oriented vs Unoriented magnets in my ThroBak PAFs. Will it sound as I want it to sound? Or will it be very different?
What do you think? Which sounded more like a 'real' 59 PAF to you? Comment below!
Amp is a Vajra JTM45 clone running into a Zilla Studio Pro 2x12 cabinet loaded with Celestion Gold & Fane A30 AlNiCo speakers. Recorded with Aston Spirit Condenser, '70s Sennheiser MD441 and sE RNR1 ribbon mics, with a Schoeps CMC6 room mic.
0:00 Intro
5:29 Edge of Breakup
7:54 Crunch
9:40 Heavier Saturation
12:15 Outro
joeperkinsmusic
jp@joeperkins.co.uk
Vector images by freepik.com
This was awesome!! Could really hear the difference. Definitely liked the Oriented A5s better!
Swapping the A2O to an A5UO in my 490R turned it into a different guitar completely. Neck position is much more useable now. It got rid of that typical 490R mud and turned my middle position into an entirely different beast for a 490/498 setup.
Unoriented for me. Everytime there was a tone that made me look up, it was Unoriented.
Thicker sound (thicker, not necessarily fatter), with way more harmonics. More saturation from pushing the amp. More sizzle. More treble.
Glad to see you're back. Hope you're feeling better, and wishing you a smooth recovery. UA-cam just isn't the same without you.
I was surprised that there was that much difference. To my ear, the unoriented pickups sounded more diffuse. The oriented pickups sounded focused and forward. Reminded me of early Bloomfield tone, which I prefer.
One thing I would have loved is an ultraclean amp (like Fender Twin) with volume turned down, but with the guitar on 10. The guitar volume control does enter into the circuit. No way to truly correct that with 'treble bleed caps' or whatever.
I like the stuff you write. Thanks for the demo, Joe.
I liked the Unoriented. Thanks for the video.
the Oriented has more bottom end which give the sound more dimension while the Unoriented chop off the bottom end and give you 2D of same character sound
Polished vs Roughcast also makes a subtle difference. The roughcast magnets have a rounder treble compared to polished.
Hey Joe, this was an excellent video...I have a few guitar builds that'll need various pickups, so I'm going to wind my own now...both magnets are on my list, but to my ear I like the UO...and my favorite PAF tone is Jeff Beck's Blow By Blow album..sweet & clean
I prefer the oriented myself.
My take - Oriented for clean tones and Unoriented for overdriven. But I love A2s for driven tones too, so I'm biased.
Man I can tell a huge difference. Oriented is boomier in bass and more strident in highs. Unoriented is smoother in the highs and tighter in the bass it seems almost perfect. Wanting to upgrade from custombucker alnico 3
Let me take that back, the Oriented sound much better with crunch, and saturated gain.
It seems I liked the orientated in the neck and the unorientated in the bridge when volume was at 10. VERY subtle but I think I heard it. Could it be mimicked with a pre-amp pedal (eg Echoplex EP-3 ala Chase Tone Secret or Clinch EP-Pre)?? maybe.
I preferred the oriented in the neck and middle positions but I could hear what you meant about the upper end aggression in the bridge. I liked the unoriented in the bridge. If it were my instrument I would have oriented in the neck and unoriented in the bridge. Curious what that middle position would sound like.
Hey man, been a big fan of your work for a while! Love all the ideas you have given me over the years!
But you can hear a difference, they are totally in the same sonic range but both magnets are doing different things. The Orientated A5's are brighter and they just sound much more modern and crunch a tad bit harder than the UOA5's . The UOA5's are much natural sounding and they really actually share alot of sonic space with some of the A2 magnets I've swapped into a many pickups lol! They seem to have less output, but it makes up for that by responding to your notes better? I really like them in your Les Paul, but do spend some time with the mand let us know how its been working out for you! I am about to swap some UOA5's into a Seymour Duncan Aniquity just to try this myself and see how it compared to the roughcasted A2 in them lol!
I have Ants in an old LP Studio, A4 neck and UOA5 bridge. The OEM degaussed A2’s were terrible for me, fully charged A2 swiped from a set of early 90’s 57 Classics were boomy and muddy.
Every time the the unoriented one was being played i preferred it. Weirdly at first it was warmer and then it also sounded brighter on some too.
Very subtle difference between the two. Maybe try A3 in that guitar? The A3 is what Gibson uses in their Custombuckers.
I like A2 and 3 for the more rounded warmer tones and 5 and up for more percussive,aggressive tones.
One of the biggest surprises to me is the A8. This is a cool magnet. They used them in the old Ibanez/maxxon Super 70'
pickups years back. The A8 in a 7.5K-8K P.A.F style p'u is very interesting. Probably too aggressive for most but i like
them for a clean, defined metal tone.
Both sounded great to me
Another great comparison, I enjoy your channel. Not sure the UO achieved your objective of taming the high end. Oriented sounded more focused and rounded, unoriented a bit thinner, expanded dynamic range and ‘splatty’. I preferred the oriented a bit more.
Hey Joe, love the channel :) did you make sure to have the pickup cover and pickup itself clamped together tight to remove any air between them before soldering them together? It helps remove feedback.
Sure did! :-)
Oriented- fuller, smoother, warmer and hotter signal
The A5's sounded a bit woofy, especially in the neck. UA5 seems to have more separation/articulation, especially with more gain.
Hey Joe...where you goin' with those magnets in your hand?
Interesting video with a lot of information on a subject most players aren't even aware of. You're right that the differences between the oriented and unoriented A5 magnets is really splitting hairs, but to my ears the oriented magnets sounded mellower with enhanced mids where the unoriented magnets sounded more aggressive with more under and overtones and are a little more scooped. I prefer the unoriented magnets. However, oriented magnets may be a solution to calm down a guitar you may feel is overly aggressive sounding.
I never knew that A3 magnets don't contain cobalt. I have 5 Gibson Custom Shop LP's from various years that have either original '57 Classics (2001), potted Custombuckers (2018) or unpotted Custombuckers (2020) . I always keep all my guitars stock, but adjust them all very precisely. '57 Classics use A2 magnets and all the Custombuckers use A3's (as far as I know). The potted Custombuckers sound very different from the unpotted Custombuckers though and are more similar to the '57 Classics. Personally, I don't like the unpotted Custombuckers as much as the others and for me need to be adjusted quite a bit closer to the strings to get what I want out of them and still prefer the others. I sometimes wonder if the previous owner of the LP with the potted Custombuckers changed the magnet from A3 to A2 as it's the only one of the 5 that I bought used.
Actually i find a lot of difference in clean settings 😨😨 Unoriented was my favourite , more top end , more open sound ,less gain ? more ¨air ¨ , ,more acoustic sound . i really like them 😃👍👍 . On dirty settings could not find much diference , maybe my ears are tired today 🙊🙊🙊 Great video 😃👍👍
Yeah, I agree, unoriented seems to be slightly more open sounding.
I prefer the Unoriented. They seems to have more "clarity" than the oriented but, to be totally honest, the differences were really subtle.
I don't know, i'm really not a fan of PAF pickups in general. If i had to choose between a Gibson equipped with PAF and one with P90, i'll get the P90 equipped. There is always something "not right" with PAF for my ears.
I have a controverial question for you Joe, Do you really think that a 59 Burst is the Holy Grail of Les Paul and why you think so?
I prefer the UO too :-) I do love the 'Burst' sound but I certainly don't think it's the be-all-and-end-all...a good 52 Tele, 63 Strat, 61 SG, etc all sound equally as special, just in different ways. I also think some Burst recordings sound godly; others sound a bit...not for me. So it depends on the guitar, player, amp, etc...as it does for everything! A Burst into a rubbish amp won't sound great...everything matters in a rig :-)
@@JoePerkinsMusic I have kz115's that I am swapping in uA5 bridge and A4 in the neck. What was your take on the feel/attack with the uA5 in the bridge?
Is it me or are the histrionics from the transformer (the low octave) much clearer on unoriented then on the oriented ones?
Anyways, I think the unoriented sounds slightly more to my liking.
I have tried every magnet in the sle 101 set. Double short bar alnico 2 is bang on perfect. Not sure about for this set. But I didn't like the uo5 when I tried it.
I sure you won't be able to stop switching mags now 😅
Perky, please list out the pickup height and screw pole settings. Great video. I heard more "air" on the un-oriented, less "congestion",
Pole screws were wound all the way down in this vid. Height-wise, there was about 4mm between bottom of low E winding and pickup cover with nothing fretted - and then completely level over to the top E (think there was about 2.5mm between that & pickup covers)
Been searching for info on this for a while 😢 as I've learned EVH used unorientated A2 magnets in his pickups. Now I see why🎉
A2/3/4 are always unoriented, I believe.
The Oriented ones have more mids and bass, the unoriented ones are actually brighter and snarkier and not very pleasing to me. Maybe you should try some Alnico II's.
this is very interesting. I wonder if any of the guitar gods chose between these two types for certain songs.
I prefer the unoriented which may be because I favor A4 in humbuckers. I need to wind a humbucker for my first hss Strat I’m building. I’m thinking oriented for that to be more sharp sounding.
Thank you, Joe, I had never heard of this manufacturing distinction. Through Beyerdynamic DT-770 headphones and JBL P308 mkII monitors my ears heard slightly more "musicality" from the unoriented. The oriented version seemed more technically "correct" or "accurate" in dynamics & frequency response but this a musical instrument not a piece of laboratory testing equipment. I appreciate the amount of work you perform for this type of analysis. Considering the frequent modifications you perform I'll bet that you have to deal with stripped screw holes and other pitfalls of rebuilding guitars. Could you make a video about your repair techniques? I suspect a drop of water into the wood, wood plugs, larger screws, etc.
As long as you're careful and don't over tighten things, screws don't _usually_ strip :-) I think I'll leave the repair video to a luthier...though could be an interesting future collaboration with Matt at Monty's!
Great video, Joe. I agree that the unoriented AV magnet sounds slightly more musical and forgiving. BTW, one thing that I seldom see mentioned is that Alnico V magnets are made up of not only aluminium (about 12%), nickel (about 27%) and cobalt (about 10%) as mentioned but also iron (at least 50%!!!), silicon (around 0.5%) and often traces of other non-magnetic metals (e.g., Cu or Ti) as well as impurities. In the 50s, the amount of cobalt was certainly low and the amount of impurities was rather high. In any case, Alnico V alloys seem to display just the right amount of magnetism (including coercivity and remanence) to be used in musical instruments, hence its popularity.
The bulk of alnico is IRON. No two companies make the same sounding alnicos. I have A5 magnets that are too dark, and some super super bright. The only good alnico being made now is in China. Korea used to be the source, but Chinese undercut them so much it killed Korean alnico forever. Those "recipes" for any alnico are generalities, nobody uses those recipes verbatim. I have thousands of alnicos in all of the grades and they all sound diffefrent from each company. A5 cannot be "unorientned." Non-oriented alnico are only A2, A3, A4, all of those are unoriented. A5 is NOT.
I prefer the unoriented in this sound demo.
JOE PERKINS, Are the Unoriented Magnetics do they ever get magnetized? because when you purchase a bunch of A5 magnetics they come Unmagnetized which you have to magnetize them and then measure the gauss using a gauss meter. I'm not sure if the Pole Pieces are Unoriented or Oriented also
When you buy magnets from ThroBak, they're already magnetised. Unsure about the pole pieces, but I believe they're vintage-correct to pretty much all PAFs - I don't think they changed much if at all, aside from the carbon content changing in later years
Joe, the unoriented seem to my ears airyer and the Oriented sound thicker, meatier. I have a number of Jon Gundry’s pickups and magnets. Personally I like taking old Gibson T-Tops and loading them with Throbak A-4 magnets. Those, to my ears anyway sound very PAF-ish. Cheers!
I did an A5 swap into SD alnico 2's pro's a few years ago and loved that. Not burst tone but they were very good. I love my kz115's but theres some missing separation and vintage "honk" not really there. I going a4 neck and ua5 bridge, and see how that goes.
Sounds like the oriented have stronger low-mids/mids, smoother top end. Unoriented sounded more scooped with less lower mids, harder top end, wider range maybe. Doesn;t make them necessarily better. They actually sounded less clear with higher gain.
Count me a UOA5 fan. I’m more of an A2 than an A5 lover to begin with, but find A2 magnets too soft on pick attack (but there are plenty of records cut with them that sound out perfect harmonics). A5 in general is too strident with all kinds of music (my opinion). Your demo seemed to verify that A5 scooped mid and sizzling high end (although I did think the single note stuff at 7.5 guitar vol was better with the A5…but that’s it).
Thanks for the time and great demo.
How is the rest of the jtm45 e-q’ed?
Would make sense to say that Oriented sound modern and unoriented vintage?
Both excellent but those un -orientated magnets sound broader and zingier than the more focused oriented ...a bit rougher?
Something seems a little more "alive" on the unoriented.
Unoriented for me too Joe, you need to take the plunge and get the four uncles abr-1 bridge and the Royal mount posts and thumb wheels your be amazed
Aha - I'll have to save up for that one!!!
@@JoePerkinsMusic you won’t regret it
Unoriented sounded a bit like A3 magnets to my ears… 🤷🏽♂️
no cleans though?
Thoughts - they sound different. I think at some of your guitar volume settings I would like one over the other, then you'd change that, and I'd think the opposite. Probably the same thing with different amps, like one would work better in one amp and one better in another amp. I think you should get some "hello my name is" tags for your shirt and label them oriented and unoriented and then you wouldn't have to put the the titles in. 😉
That would certainly save time in the edit!! Haha
Where did you get the magnets?
ThroBak 👍
Unorientated for me
which is less harshess
Excuse me. The definition of alnico 5 is as an ORIENTED magnet, meaning it can only be magnetized in a specific direction. If alnico is not oriented, its either A2, A3, A4. This idea was Tim Shaw's THEORY, but he never provided any proof, and he never was a pickup designer. He is a luthier, not a pickup designer. I talked to four different alnico making companies and asked about non-oriented A5 and they ALL said there is no such thing and never was and they all thought it was a stupid question. So, one of them cast an A5 magnet for me while not being in the magnet charger during melting heat period, he sent it to me, and it had no charge at all and would not charge at all. It doesn't work. I was sent one of these Arnold un-oriented magnets and all they were was A2 magnets and sound like A2 magnets. This is nothing more than marketing hype. What guitar players need to know is that no two magnet companies use the exact same "recipes," and there is no official alloy mix that everyone is using. I buy from many different magnet companies and all their numbered alloys sound different from all the other factories. I have A5 magnets that are warm sounding, and A5 that could break glass from the high treble frequencies. Same for all the other grades. China is where we all get our magnets now and they are super super close to vintage magnets, in fact one of my videos I show both vintage and modern A2 magnets in a real PAF after a complete rewind because the coils were unsalvageable. With eyes closed you can't tell them apart. Vintage magnets aren't magic and don't make vintage sound. I am surprised this disinformation about "non-oriented A5 magnets" is still out there. A5 MEANS ORIENTED, go ask the magnet companies if you don't believe that. LOL.
Who wears in yellow on his beautifulness trusts!,😅
Hah!
My vote is for neither! Keep searching for something that makes THAT guitar sing. Neither really do that!
Unoriented 5 was definitely better
Alnico 4 has the most even frequency range, Alnico 3 has the weakest guass. 2 seems mid heavy to me, 5 is often bonkers, as you know.
The magnet conversation is endless, long vs short, sandcast vs. polished and now oriented vs disoriented...
I like the unoriented 5 clean in the neck, in the bridge it sounds like a banjo. Crunchy neck its a little less swampy than the oriented and has a really compelling high mids definition. But gainy that def turns into hash... Oh well!
Try some P94s
No difference. I listened without watching the video. If you can hear the diff and go “oh that’s unoriented” you must have super ears.