How Social Media Warps Creators, Tristan Harris
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- Опубліковано 30 сер 2022
- There has been a lot of focus on the damage that social media is doing to all of us, its users. This growing awareness was partly fuelled by the work of Tristan Harris, through the breakout hit documentary The Social Dilemma.
But there has been less attention on how this new landscape also affects creators, through factors like audience capture and feedback loops that distort truth seeking.
Tristan Harris is the director of the Centre for Humane Technology, trying to re-envision a healthier relationship with the technological tools we are using: www.humanetech.com/
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Thank you so much for this, gentlemen. It is sad seeing Rebel Wisdom come to an end, but I understand why David feels the time has come. Maybe the two of you could link up and do something! I really admire both of your steadfastness in not getting “sucked in” to.. whatever. Anyways, Rebel Wisdom and Center for Humane Technology could work together. Some of my favorite thinkers from the IDW have not necessarily gone more right or left, but a lot of them have just become more intense versions of themselves. By that I mean, their positions on arguments are more, “anyone who disagrees with this is evil”. And hey, weren’t we all trying to escape that with Rebel Wisdom and the IDW? I totally get it David, I would move on to more and better things! You bring so much healthy insight into the world. Thank you for being a part of my sense/making journey. Thank you, Tristan. I’m a big fan of yours.
Ah this is what I think about the most, the re-traumatization. It’s often feels like a global assault on the nervous system. Thank you for this convo.
I can't imagine going to a place, just to take a picture to say I was there, then leave.
But here we are.
@Mark Freeman we have met before and we will meet again!
The reason why there is distrust online, is because most people online are outside our circle of trust.
It makes sense to only trust the people around you that you know have your best interest in mind.
A trusted network in which individuals share actual data may work very well, something like LinkedIn? Internet veracity? No CyberTrolls, no bots?
@@newphaze4t370 maybe, distrust is at best, healthy skepticism. If you want to know what single point source of truth looks like, take a look at the CCP, Chinese regime, that's the end game of having a monopoly on truth. Funny, spoiler alert, they abuse that asymmetric power relationship quite often.
As Dr. Bruce Lipton says People don't have problems because they have a mind.
People have problems because they have two minds, the conscious mind, and the subconscious mind.
The subconscious mind works 95 percent of the day. It's called habit mind because it learns by repetition.
People are not aware of 95 percent of their thoughts.
So if you are an idiot and your subconscious mind works 95 percent of the day, it means you are 95 percent not aware of being an idiot.
If you are a great athlete your body understands your job so well, that you are not aware of 95 percent of the thoughts, because you do it so well without realizing it.
The body is called the subconscious mind as well, because you are driving the car so well, without realizing every move you do, your body knows it better than you.
If your habit is clicking on posts, your body aka subconscious mind becomes so good at it, that you don't even realize you are clicking for two hours on some videos.
and you are not aware of 60 000 thoughts a day, but you are aware only of 100 thoughts a day.
But by practicing mediation and metacognition, you can practice being aware of your thoughts actions, and progress.
Watch his videos.
He also explains being in love with a partner or with a job or hobby, helps you to be more conscious about yourself.. because when you fall in love genuinely you want to make an impression so your attention is higher. He calls it the "honeymoon" effect. and he feels everyday happiness because he says he woke up happy, he doesn't think about the past.
He explains how easy is to brainwash people, by subconscious programming and also how easy is to brainwash little children who are talented but they don't use analytical minds yet.
The color contrast in Tristan's close up shot, with his blue shirt, red hair, and green tree in the background makes a really pleasing picture.
Thank you David and Tristan.
Great discussion. The "hermeneutics of suspicion" was developed by a literary theorist and philosopher Paul RIcouer. The idea was that when we read text, there is often an apparent meaning that sort of smacks you in the face. He thought that the skilled reader should go beyond that meaning to see if other meanings can be detected, as if the author might be obscuring something. The 'masters of suispicion' he noted as good examples were Freud, Nietzsche, and Marx; all of whom, in their own way, had philosophies that said "Here is what we've long thought was going on in the mind/the language of morality/economic history, but I'm going to tell you that there is something deeper and less apparent there."
It's a great method in a lot of ways. But it also opens the door wide open for paranoia and gaslighting.
The irony of this being recommended to me.
GREAT video, deserves millions and millions of views
What I do not like about all those social media is when I click to watch something on it automatically
sends me the same topic .
It feels not righ .
I want to choose what interest me
myself .
Such a thought provoking conversation. Paul Ricoeur was the philosopher who coined the term “The Hermeneutics of Suspicion”. Bruno Latour developed some of his ideas with agent- network theory and the limits to critique. His approach was to bring together subject and object, by looking for connections, disconnections, and reconnections. In literature Rita Felski ‘ in “The Limits to Critique’ and “ Critique and Post Critique,” follows on in a similar vein. We need to move towards a creative, post critical philosophy or we will destroy our cultures and our societies by suspicion, mistrust and nihilism.
This is so on point guys - a conversation which truly taps into the zeitgeist. Where I find many "luminaries" in the sense-making set to be, as Jamie Wheal puts it, "overblown eggheads masquerading as Jedi", Tristan couldn't be farther from that. His assessment of the forces behind the invisible strings which pupeteer our information ecology is incisive, pragmatic and deeply relevant to every human on the planet. Bravo guys, this is one of my fave Rebel Wisdom convos to date.
So great that this conversation happened between two persons sitting across each other at an actual table, for a change, instead of peeking through some digital screen!
Never had ANY "social media" - never will. I have been in the process of "de-googling" both of my new computers AND my new cellphone. It can be done! There ARE other ways to access YT for my studies and audio-0books.
I've no further use for such an invasive company. I simply choose to have MY privacy back. I encourage others to do the same. Big tech has gotten WAY out of hand!
This conversation was incredible, one of my favourites on the channel!
We all know the problems with (anti) social media. The real question is what a Pro-social Media would look like. More specifically, how it would be designed and distributed? Could it out compete the anti-social media? I think so.
I just do not know anyone else seriously trying to engineer/facilitate this? Talking about problems is easy. Low hanging fruit. Offering solutions that make the dysfunctional obsolete deserves more attention, time and care.
Yes. 🙏 I think about it all the time! It's weird that there's so little talk about what social media could ideally look like.
@@SD-bk1pq it sounds like you're assuming you can only build a social media platform motivated by greed.. why is that? And if you're saying we shouldn't try to build a better social media platform what is your suggestion instead?
Thanks Tristan and David!
Appreciate these good faith convos as they have seem to become even more elusive these days
Underappreciated point - the algorithms compete for engagement and while there is undeniable power UA-cam has it still points overwhelmingly towards to what people watch. I think he over credits the human curation of the algorithm.
Please expand. This is fascinating. Tha k you.
Brilliant conversation and a deep dive on some of the key points from the 3rd attractor series. I am relatively new to RW but have binged countless hours over recent months. Truly a loss to sensemaking that this channel is coming to an end. Thank you David.
Thank you David and everyone for all these great videos and conversations like this one. Can't wait to see what you do next David (and your upcoming doc. about Vervaeke!)
This is the best comment by Andrea Laing not about the internet but about meditation practice.
"Attention is the highest currency you have, therefore everybody wants your attention, your friends, television media etc.
Including you.
including your own ego, wants your own attention, constantly interrupting you from your passion.
Therefore you have to bring it back with your meditation and with your breath 100 times a day." :)))))
And as Dr. Joe Dispenza says statistically people lose attention 6 times per minute.
I really appreciate this conversation! Thank you 🙏🏼
this is probably what David Bowie was predicting in his interview with Jeremy Paxman. consumer and producer so in sympatico
Tristan is so eloquent! Thank you
Ironically... this video needs to go viral...
As always tristan scores the homerun here, Great video!
I’m sad this channels ending
Thanks for all your work
I haven't watched the whole thing yet. But YT channel The Stoa, with no comment section, is a good outlier. It seems their community (including the guests) shapes the content in a very intentional, holistic way, the community is the creator. You can still see their trends, movements of topics etc but it seems more authentic.
I love the Stoa's approach. I understand the decision to end the RW project, but I'm really going to miss it. There's more to be said and done. The Stoa is my favorite channel so far to continue the ongoing discussion, practice, and sense of community discussion, and I'm incredibly grateful for their community.
@@dvprater314 RW seemed like the 'cooler younger brother' of The Stoa to me haha. Not better or anything, they were just a great pairing for me
Turning off comments is weak. If the content creator doesn't want to read them they don't have to. Turning off comments makes it look like the person is afraid of criticism.
@@BennyOcean Not in this case. It's not about criticism, it's about community integrity. The commenter's are part of the community but social media dynamics tend towards low quality without curation. You're welcome to email criticisms, but frivilous/very quick criticism is not often high quality and can lead to low level critique being the norm (or responses to the low level being a norm).
It's based off this reasoning: Broken Glass theory: "In criminology, the broken windows theory states that visible signs of crime, anti-social behavior and civil disorder create an urban environment that encourages further crime and disorder, including serious crimes."
In YT comment's context, it could mean the lowest level criticising commenter encourages (or opens the door at least to) others of that kind, and then the algorithm might attract others of that ilk too (maybe?). And then there's a trend (or a gravity) towards to that lowest common denominator over time. That's my take anyway.
Thank you both- interesting and concerning and inspiring. So many concepts to play with that help to perceive beyond. :)
Really great conversation, and the camera quality is excellent!
I really appreciated that Tristan didn't go down the disasterous path of censorship as a solution. Last time I saw him on RW that seemed to be the direction he was going.
looking through binoculars makes campfires seem like wildfires
it must be kind of f*cked up because 70% of the UA-cam commercials I get are Home Despot and I have never been in one of their stores or remodeled anything.
I get cremation and funeral home ones and then obviously scammy stock market tipsters and islamic "Charities" with dying babies left to cry.
I am also at a loss as to why l get Ads that l skip or l mute.
I wonder if being momentarily distracted modifies our online behaviour in a way that benefits google because the advertisers are getting nothing but financial drain.
Thanks for this insight.
Another great RW conversation. I see a variety of audience capture occurring outside of the usual social media outlets, in the more conventional blog-with-comments arena. There seems to be a sort of minor land rush to claim portions of the anti-woke/anti-left audience and give them what they want. Rod Dreher, James Howard Kunstler stand out in this area.
Darn David!! I wish that after all this time being in touch with wisdom, you had started observing yourself way more than you observe others. That is around minute 31 when Tristan starts talking about the effect of Trauma and I stopped the conversation to write this message at 31:58. Self reflexion and introspection could do you good you know. Of course, this may make you go through an uncomfortable phase, but I think you already know that such vulnerable phase is temporary and required to grow more humility. You feed your intellect a lot. but do you also nourish your sensitive nervous system? Sorry BTW, I dislike writing such comment, but I feel that if you have not looked inside yourself, it likely is because not enough people around you have encouraged you to do so. So I want to encourage you. You are worth the growth.
This makes you so condescending and ungrateful for the tremendous benefit you have received from this rebel experience. Man! It's time.
@ David. I feel that sometimes Tristan is talking directly to you to get you to uplift your mind... either way, I want to thank you. I discovered RW through the magnificent conversation you had with Jamie about hacking collective consciousness. Possibly this naïveté of yours has allowed for the massive sense making project to flourish and that now is your well deserved time to look back and at your mind. I want to thank you for all that you have made available to me to keep going.
Excellent interview.Thank you for keeping on !
Hiw true. Sure wish my earlier comments hadn't been deleted @ Rebel Wisdom Keep Calm and Carry On.
Tristan, it’s not a “fancy” term. It is a precise term...and that’s why John uses them. And questioning is not necessarily suspicion, it’s wisdom seeking.
It is precise. And a very important concept. But there needs to be another translation/definition that doesn't require the definition a word within the concept definition. Namely, mentioning 'hermeneutics of suspicion' usually requires defining 'hermeneutics' then an explaination of 'hermeneutics of suspicion' follows - that will create less resonance with the concept and important message for those not familiar or not of the same disposition. I've found that process is an obstacle is getting these messages across. Jim Rutt seems to be okay at putting the terms into laypeople's term, though not always.
@@Dilmahkana I agree. Yet those who have arrived at the RW channel are typically well versed, particularly in JV. I find it interesting that one would use the term, label it fancy, then “layman” it for us, as if....we need him for that. I mean for gods sake, if you can’t figure it out for yourself it’s unlikely you’re going to finish the “film”...
@@gregorymoats4007 RW has been a learning experience.
@@gregorymoats4007 I think you need both. I don't want to get into any intellectual echo chambers, it's very easy on these channels. The future, better society needs to include everyone, and we want everyone to have the *potential* to understand deep issues and concepts.
@@Dilmahkana as I’ve already stated, I agree. And with RW going away this echo chamber will be going with it ;))
You mentioned Russel Brand and Dave Rubin that shifted to the right but why you didn’t mention any influencer that drifted to the left?
Such a shame that you are calling it a day. Your content has been incredible of late. I hope whatever you do next keeps up this great work.
Sad news indeed. I really enjoyed Sensemaking. I learned so much about how the world works. And who to trust. We've got you. See you on the other side.
Whom?
@@newphaze4t370 Rebel Wisdom
Everything has to have a price point in these times. Even simply turning off...
David has stayed true through these crazy times, so can we ✌️
Thank you for pointing out that Twitter is essentially medieval or feudal. I agree, it does not encourage or incentivize enlightened thinking or nuance.
Mark Freeman! So many of our conversations!
What is the name of the film about Dave Rubin's change over time, that they mentioned in this video?
You should go watch the newest after skool video, it’s very relevant to this and shows a quite staggering example of how an audience can effect a content creator
Love After Skool! Spent a week with him and Randall Carlson in the Scablands last year. What a brilliant adventure. So glad you mentioned After Skool. A d by extension, everything tha5 Rebel Wisdom stands for
@@newphaze4t370 oh wow I remember hearing him talk about that trip how wonderful u went and got to hang with the legendary Randall
33:00 I think of that Kurt Cobain quote ALL the time these days... "just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not after you"... and I don't say this to legitimize conspiracy theories, only to say that sifting thru reality and fiction in these times is extremely difficult and exhausting. So grateful for both your work, thank you.
What is a conspiracy theory?
ok maybe. But consider also that Kurt was addicted to heroin. Drugs make you paranoid AF.
The algorithm does not approve of this video evidently.
A great conversation. Much of the themes discussed is certainly terrain traversed before. Many who tune in here are pretty well versed in the social media game. I am excited to see where David and team move towards regarding solutions and enlightened perspectives. It is sad to see that many such as Russell Brand have run to their corners purely for self aggrandizement.
6:30 - what people want can be determined on two levels. Firstly, what they like to consume generally. Secondly, what they actually click on. The latter isn’t just what they want, but also partially (or arguably largely) the social media algorithm’s agenda. Which itself conditions what people want!
The big tech platforms are dealing with investor capture, they are pandering to appeal to broader investment,
as much as creators are dealing with audience capture, they are pandering to appeal to a broader audience.
In both cases, the algo is not fully understood.
As for users, they are just milked for their attention, and as such become zombified by the whole experience.
@Mark Freeman, please expand more on this algorithm. You seem to have insider knowledge. I also notice, Mark Freeman, that our previous conversation has disappeared. What are your thoughts on that?
And, obviously, I agree with you and anticipate your reasoned reply
@@newphaze4t370 I'm not an insider, it just seems obvious as eluded to in the video, that the currency is attention, or eyeballs time on site, to sell adverts. We only really speak of the algo in terms of what users experience, but there is an algorithm (not necessarily computer based) used by investment firms to get the big tech platforms in line with their agenda. For example, remove this user from your platform and we will invest X billion in your company.
Trends also emphasize the reality we live in. So it is kind of a denial culture to claim nothing like this should happen.
It's not just algorithms creating opinions: the typical self overestimation of tech. They are followers, not leaders. They don't create the content.
Great point! Are you a content creator? It would be so good to get your opinion of this@ anytime. And, do you find it surprising that conversations have been deleted from this content section? I took many screen shots so I could be sure about the deleted comment. Your thoughts
Does your name mean Peter of the English? What a great name!
Yes, I have been a content creator.
I guess the content creators themselves would notice when parts were deleted and give you notice or look for another platform. So you don't need to make screenshots ;-) However well intended.
I would go further than the most cynical take dominating, and ask, why is it that the most cynical take dominates? it is because it is how the world presents itself to most people, regardless of whether it is true or not. So I would not simply dismiss the most cynical take, as it can help to possibly diagnose societal problems.
How absolutely true! And speaking 9f cynicism, did you notice that our earlier conversation was deleted? Wowza. What are your thoughts on that, Mark Freeman?
While this is good and positive and I think we can all see Tristan's pure hearted devotion to the subject, and agree with his takeaway points, this conversation also touches on one of modern society's most violently polarized subjects - that of curtailed free speech. You'll find plenty of pure hearted people on both sides of this debate, and without fail, corporate, government or other polluted interest will pick these people up as their pawns when they need the excuse they are peddling, and use them to advance their agenda, not the agenda of the proponent, like our shining knight above.
Tis a shame that is, and what can you do but despair and disengage, or embrace constant suspicion and explanations of conspiracy? If you choose to care, as was caused by widespread dissatisfaction & spare time around covid stuff, the rabbit hole opens under your very feet.
Also, I've watched the whole video, I promise.
Social media censored me as a published writer that made books since 1992. It is sickening
Over what issue?
Yes, on what issue? And which social media platform?
And could you also describe what you mean by "sickening" because that is rather vague and may not agree with what sickens others. For instance, I am sickened by incendiary comments leading the rest of the comments. (As per Tristan)
Why should they not censor you, if your content runs counter to their agenda.
@@tensevo that would depend on the platform, don't you think Mark? If the platform purports to represent diverse views but ingeniously and covertly suppressed some ideas and not other, does that change the equation?
Tristan Harris deserves a Nobel Peace Prize, and i'm not being hyperbolic
A feudalistic information ecosystem makes sense in a feudalistic economic and social ecosystem.
The binoculars that Tristan references exist, they are called Pseudoscopes
So funny what Tristran was talking about with brand. It was so obvious to anyone watching over time. If it were music we'd call him sellout for changing his content just to appease the most fans. But it's youtube so he gets 5 million subs.
there’s algorithms that can predict what ur thinking right now
Highlight....all encompassing meta conspiracy theory....for those trapped all the time there...though are often seen relevant patterns, there is a lot of brilliant people anyway on either side, it is important to take break, connect to the deeper, not everything is manipulation all the time....❤👃
Yeah but you forgot to account for the trade-off between specialisation and generalisation in terms of audience diversity. The more a specific niche is catered for, the more the capability to appeal to unfamiliar users is reduced.
*tosses a comment to the algorithm* Fuller than most, David, your cup runneth over. Thanks for Rebel Wisdom and content such as this. May God grant you many years. 🖖🏿🙏🏿🤙🏿!!!
P.S. I look forward to creating with you and Daniel, Tristan.
Beautiful
Daniel Schmachtenberger spoke recently about how it's a mistake to view technologies as essentially neutral in value, because their very existence can in fact affect human thinking and values. He cited the plough and disappearance of respect for animals as an example. It seems very important to me that we learn this lesson and are therefore able to call social media out for what it is -- inherently dangerous and harmful. I think the comparison with tobacco companies is excellent.
I wonder... when he says the most cynical take gets the most attention, is that always true, or is that also a 'symptom' of the times we're living in, where there is a lot of 'latent cynicism' floating about in the audience, which makes very cynical takes seem more salient
What is special about this times? Weren't the Stoics the cynics from days of yore?
@@newphaze4t370 Yeah I suppose, it's an open question to me. I just wonder if cynicism can also grab hold of the public perception at large as a kind of transient fashion -like phenomenon.
@@quixoticsounddesign5613 thanks for your post as it made me think in more details about human attitude that I’ve taken for granted as an attempt at coping with big scary changes of old system collapse and future is uncertain-end of empire.thought that cynicism as an attitude allows a person to feel superior,disengaged emotionally and free from responsibility for social/political realities and remedies.as being different to ancient philosophy of cynics which advocated life of virtue,simplicity,integrity
🖖
If processed sugar has a role in enhancing cynicism... here's an amazing video on sugar production in the America ua-cam.com/video/eYj_p7_N9jY/v-deo.html I wonder if a timeline could link this with political and business events in the 1980 and '90 period when production really ramped up. Maybe this is the reason the 1990's felt sterile.
Yeah it's kind of a weird self fulfilling prophecy where nobody can ever win.
Tristan's statement that being suspicious and having unique cynical opinions gets you social brownie points and makes you look intelligent is itself suspicious and cynical and makes him look intelligent. Just seems like another form of nihilism.
He uses the thought experiment of a system that rewards cynicism and discourages concensus and how "hitting the play button" would lead to endless suspicion and contrarianism but if I learned anything from reading the lost world by Michael Chrichton, chaos will organise itself eventually.
27:37 - trauma inflation
But why do social media algorithms work? It’s not happening in some mysterious nowhere land. It’s happening within a society that has a negative belief about humans. That negative belief makes people desperately create algorithms for personal gain, and it makes people passionately enter those platforms to express anger. If I didn’t believe I was needy (negative view of self), I wouldn’t desperately create the algorithms for money and prestige, and if I wasn’t passionately judgemental (negative view of others), I wouldn’t enter social media wars against imagined enemies.
@Mephisto I believe everybody is perfectly innocent. Bad behaviour is caused by bodily instincts and societal illusions.
@Mephisto But if we care how people behave then we have to fix the cause of their harmful behaviour. In developed countries we've largely solved the bodily aspect. Most people have enough food and shelter. So now all we have to fix is society's negative view of human beings. Judging ourselves and others is a waste of time and stops us from focusing on real issues.
@Mephisto No one needs fixing. We only need to remove one endemic illusion/distraction, which is the belief that humans are unsatisfactory. But it's like initially telling people the world is round. They just point to the immediate evidence - the seemingly flat horizon. I admit that I've been hammering this point for a few years with no luck. 🤣So it probably requires someone with more charisma and eloquence to get the ball rolling. But reality will win. There's nothing wrong with tigers, trees, and stars, and there's nothing wrong with humans.
@Mephisto People can't be blamed for being brainwashed from birth. We were all thrown into these bodies and world, naked and weak. We were vulnerable and designed to imbibe whatever we were told because our survival depended on it. So we are victims of an inherited negative meme about humans. No one is to blame.
Humankind also started as vulnerable and clueless creatures, and so we judged each other in an effort to establish order. But now that humankind has learnt some things about the world and we have established some order and safety, we can re-evaluate the old negative view of humankind. It is only that one thing we need to correct.
Despite our rough beginnings, we have developed huge amounts of knowledge, built incredible cities, and travelled to the moon. Individually, we study for 10 years, raise kids, work for 40 years, operate complex technology, and help strangers. We are awesome!
Who is here looking for the highest rated comment?
Fantastic point. My question to you is did you notice that our earlier conversation was deleted. I agree completely that so much of this has been devalued. What is your ipinion on our earlier conversation having g been deleted??? Please give us your thoughts on this because you seem to have some insider information.
Do you recall our earlier conversation? Fortunately, I have a screenshot so it will mot be l9st
PS, let's up vote th8s conversation, Mr. Freeman. Shall we?
Could you please invite Prof Matthoas Desmet onto the show?
Wait...wasnt Rebel Wisdom coming to an end?
these are scheduled posts
not until November ;)
@@RebelWisdom Ah ha! Have you spilled your future plans?
Two points discussed on RW lately. The argument about audience capture taking over the IDW, I don't buy it. It's relevant with regards to Rubin, although there are a lot of other things happening there (some good, some questionable). Otherwise, I don't see it. Not with Bret (or Eric), not with Peterson, Harris, Shapiro, Rogan, Nawaaz, Murray. Where is it?
Also about the IDW breaking apart. Again, I don't see it. It's not a group of buddies anymore, but that's not the point, and they barely ever were. They were supposed to have the disussions, and to disagree where they disagreed. And they have. Would I like to see Sam Harris and Bred Weinstein talk COVID? Yes. Would I like to see Harris and Nawaaz on Rogan again? For sure. But we had Sam on Petersons podcast not long ago. And they had a good conversation. Sure, this was before Sam got cabin fever, but they got real, and kept it good will. And Murray, of all people, has managed to talk to most other guys, including Sam, perhaps the most left-wing of them all, during the last year or two. And again, these aren't the only conversations we've seen.
I'm gonna be real with you. I'm here because this is a negative video about a dangerous what is wrong with a process that is created by mysterious people i dont know. Also i feel better than other groups of people because they dont watch these videos about this problem but i do. And even knowing that... I still think I'm here for the right reasons and I think you guys are different from Alex Jones. But I couldn't explain the difference to an Alex Jones fan.
I feel like rebel wisdom exemplifies just another form of virtue signaling:
The detached observer of the folly of others:
[INSERT DISPASSIONATE DRIVEL HERE]
"Based on our understanding of the misaligned incentives of those unfortunate humans who are bound by the limitations of their species we anticipate 'they' will abound of certain obvious errors."
- A superiorior talking ape
Saying that a position is "cynical" or "nihilistic" is not an argument against the truth claim of the position. An idea can be "cynical" or "nihilistic" and simultaneously true.
A feature of conspiracy theories is that the individual or individuals participating in the theory suspect that they have some kind of unique insight into the way things really are, or they see the "truth", which is inaccessible to other people. This feature is paired with a sense of nefariousness or some kind of evil bad guy who is responsible for keeping the truth cloistered. The individual is then transformed into a kind of hero in a heroic narrative, who must conquer the forces of evil and bring truth to the masses.
Notice that you are engaging in it too. You are not outside of the framework, but you think that you are because the hero always perceives himself to be an outsider looking in and seeing how things "really" are. I am also not outside of the framework. In my mind, I also am seeing how things "really" are and accusing you of being a victim of delusion.
There is great wisdom in the famous line: "How can mirrors be real if our eyes aren't real?"
I think this is overly relativist. In moving beyond the narrow mainstream sensibility, Overton window, it's easy to see you can attain a more all-seeing perspective and make a claim of being higher on a hierarchy of objective knowledge. Ie knowing about MK Ultra fundamentally shifts what you know is possible with govt. Similarly listening to Chomsky give the litany of countries the US has invaded or otherwise interfered with. I also think we can judge different degrees of knowledge through checking with others and self-reflection.
@@evanblackie7510 I'm not talking about knowledge and epistemology really, I'm more talking about heroism surrounding the search for "truth".
And certain truths appear to be relativistic. Especially something called "moral truths". I'm going to ignore supposed "factual truths" for now because that's a long story that has to do with phenomenology.
You mentioned MK Ultra and US invasions. Whether these things are "good" or "bad" are relativistic. And, it is somehow tied to heroic narratives. Certain things can be good when "our team" does it, and bad when the "enemy team" does it.
I'll give an example: The Sullivan Expedition was good because our team did it. Not only that George Washington who ordered it was a good man who gave up the presidency willingly. Such a great and wise man! They shout. Meanwhile, the Holocaust, which is a comparable activity, is bad because the enemy team did it.
@@benjaminfranklin7263 I see your point about the sides and the influence of psychological projection and self-deception in our framing and sense of right and wrong.
Yet I still think your arguments veer into being overly relativistic. Yes our ethics are rooted in our embodiment in a tribal setting, but we can and have transcended this to varying degrees with the enlightenment, globalisation and the concept of fundamental human rights. So it feels like we can agree across most of the world that the holocaust was a horrific tragedy and something we would want to avoid. Of course fighting and invasion still abound and in war, our sphere of ethical concern reduces to the tribe, nation state, but I don't think that mean ethics are only relativistic.
hang on - Tristan's friend Francis the whistleblower can be authentic and honest and still be a boon to power and amplified by them because her reveal serves their interests. I mean, I get that FB is a literal conspirator but I never believed she was an actual liar. I just felt her voice was being amplified by the wider system because it served authoritarian interests more on balance. What a mindfuck eh? Jesus, no wonder people just throw their arms up and ignore it or demand it all be burned to the ground
I wish you'd stop promoting that Dave Rubin critique. I watched the whole series as well as the Tim Pool series, and while they're well-produced and interesting, they're far from unbiased and even somewhat conspiracist in the way they cherry-pick isolated clips to paint broad narratives about complicated personalities. I share your concerns about Dave's tribalism and audience capture, but he deserves better critics.
What is the series called? and where is it (is it on UA-cam)?
@@psyskeptic9979 ua-cam.com/play/PLPslWoHNC5x3noyezZ79BlkvGV1XK3ubf.html
Al Gore Rythm.....lol
No wonder absurdism is so en vogue.
Why aren’t you wasting half of the interview asking the person how they grew up? You’re doing it wrong 😆
the problem seems that society and its social media is structured for the purpose of capitalism; for corporations to make profits~ so, what about creating social media to serve a socialist system? more like PBS
Alex Jones is an amazing human being. Yes it wasn’t right talking about the shooting etc, but he’s got pretty much everything right. So I enjoy Alex.
Terrible video both shills working for black rock....only joking,I learnt alot.
Interesting chat. These guys are so naive in respect to what they term "all encompassing conspiracy theory". It's obvious from how they speak about it that they have a fundamental lack of understanding of what the fuck they're talking about.