The ORIGIN of the Ferryman: A 30,000 Year old story!
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- Опубліковано 8 чер 2024
- The Ferryman is one of the oldest characters in human history, and his purpose was to take you to the Underworld.
So why does he turn up in so many stories and cultures, and not just Greek Mythology? He has a past that has a huge history, and here we look at some of his myths, and use our understanding of him and his common traits, to see if we can trace him back, back far in time, and probably far longer back than you would first imagine, making him one of the oldest characters in story telling history.
And with the information we discover we can start understanding how our ancestors thought of death.
So welcome to myths of Odin, the Proto Indo Europeans and their Centum and Satem divisions, and the Persians. We discuss bridges, boats, and psycho-pomps, and how our view of death has changed over time. And welcome to the story of the Ferry man.
And rememeber don't pay the ferryman!
Text and Book References include:
Pausians 10.28.2
Śatapatha Brāhmaṇa 4.2.5.10
Śvetāsvatara Upaisạd 2.8
Dēnkart 3.182
Maṇḍukaka Upanisad 1.2.7
Frogs (139f), Aristophane
Alcestis 441, Euripides
Yasna 46.10, Gāthic Avesta
Navigation of Saint Brendon
A Second Century Satirist, Lucian
Russian Laments for the Dead
Poetic Edda, Carolyne Larrington, Oxford World Classics
Prose Edda, Anthony Faulkes Trans., Everyman Publishing
Vita Merlini, Geoffrey of Monmouth
De Bello Gothico, Procopius
Vergil's Aeneid, Oxford Press
Mahabharata (Abridged), Penguin Books
India's "Tīrthas": "Crossings" in Sacred Geography, Diana L. Eck, History of Religions , May, 1981, Vol. 20, No. 4, pp. 323-344
Gods and Men in Vedic Ritualism: Toward a Hierarchy of Resemblance, Brian K. Smith, History of Religions , May, 1985, Vol. 24, No. 4, pp. 291-307
The Orpheus Myth in North America, A. H. Gayton, The Journal of American Folklore , Jul. - Sep., 1935, Vol. 48, No. 189, pp. 263-293
Lincoln, Bruce, et al. Death, war, and sacrifice: studies in ideology and practice. Chicago, University of Chicago Press, 1991
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Chapters
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0:00 Introduction
0:58 The Greek Myth of Kharon and Charon, and his personification
5:15 Where did the Greeks think the Ferryman come from?
7:10 What are the common traits of the Ferryman in Greek culture?
10:35 Old Norse stories of the Ferryman
16:30 The Ferryman in Celtic culture
20:16 What does all this mean, and the Two Branches of the Proto Indo Europeans
21:42 The Russian Laments
22:37 The Indian Hymns and Vedic Culture
28:44 Why the difference in the beliefs and doctrines?
31:08 Zarathustra's influence and his names meaning
33:01 The Ferryman's actual name and our view of death
34:02 The Myth of Orpheus
35:20 The Native American Tribes have a story
36:32 Coincide or a 15,000 year old story?
37:22 The true age and meaning of the Ferryman
What is your favorite Greek myth or character? Achilles? The Trojan War? The Oracle? Hades?
I have a penchant for all the groups of three female monsters--the gorgons, the graeae, the fates, and the erinyes.
@@AIWboojum That's an unusual but fascinating interest. Yes, I shall put these on my list of videos to do. Thank you for watching and your support :)
@Matt Dursse Yes, that's a great story!
Dude holy crap you broke my mind with that last bit. I’m reeling thinking about a myth that’s been told for 15,000 years across continents and peoples and time. It’s completely extraordinary. One of your best yet!
@@That-Google-Guy It blew my mind too when I read the papers about it. Thanks for watching!
It seems to me that the Vikings got sick of people having to argue with the ferry man and just buried them with a boat. That's a hell of a workaround to solve an old problem that comes up time after time in the old stories.
That is a marvellous theory :)
Ferryman: "Two coins for passage, or wait in line."
Viking: *flips him off* "I brought my ride with me!"
An act of ultimate finger-flipping 😂
@@prestonjones1653 😂😂😂 that was exactly how I pictured it too
Hilarious and could totally be true.
In Finnish mythology we also have our version of this myth; Tuonen Tytti (the maid of death), a ferrywoman who brings the dead across the river of Tuonela in a raft. In some versions of the myth, she only takes onboard the good and the honorable, and those who have done evil deeds in life must ford/swim across the river (which is described depending on the specific version of the myth as a deep, dark, ice-cold river or a raging rapids of fire and smoke).
In Kalevala, the wiseman Väinämöinen attempts to cross the river to seek the eternal wisdom of the dead by pretending to be dead himself, but the ferrywoman sees through his bluff and tells him to go back to his land and kin, saying that "many are they who have crossed this river, but far fewer make it back."
Thank you for sharing that, I love to read other's stories.
I believe the ferry man took people across the Bering Strait.
The Tartarian Empire could be the entrance to Tartarus/TartarRUS/TartarU.S.
They have very long nights up there, they used to have dogs as big as cattle all over Grand Tartary, they're still the meanest dogs on earth, there's always ice, there's polar bears guarding the ice; and it's possible to cross back again.
We have had a tradition in our family since the Second Schleswig War in 1864 here in Denmark that when you turn 16 you would get a coin to have on your person at all time except for shover Beach and bed and especially when you leve your home in case something happens you always have the fair for the ferryman and to this day its tradition to carry a coin in your pocket 😁 I like the story and the meaning and its wild that its been in the family so long, the last 3 generations have added a bit to it we have all gotten a mjølner necklace and been told that it's the key for strength and guidance and for him who believes in the norse mytologi, we are a wierd family but we have it great
That's a great story, thank you for sharing it :)
Is that why they have penny loafers?
Is there an ancient traditional place your ancestors brought their dead? The opal could represent an identifier stone that would tell the ferryman which place your tribes bones would be placed. Was the ferryman the tribal carrier of the dead? Even Odin had a Ferryman.
great family tradition. thank you for sharing your story.
@@roysutherland9729 I was taught the Pennie’s were for a two cent phone call.
So now we understand why the ferryman is so old and tired. He's been doing the same monotonous job for at least 15 thousand years!
It's honest work!
Well, maybe he could trade jobs with Atlas.....I am sure he needs a couple centuries break
Except the Greeks don't go back more than 3500 years at most.
Prior to then they too were living in caves just like everybody else.
@@hkschubert9938 I suggest you watch the video to learn what my comment is in reference to
@@photinodecay I did.
I mean it's pretty logical for the myth to be very very old. Because what were the first borders? What absolutely separated realms? Rivers. So it makes sense for the ultimate and final border to be a river too.
Now crossing a river yourself is dangerous and unpleasant so you need a ferryman, whether you are a king or a pauper. The rate of Charon is an Obulos, not a fortune, which enforces the whole death as the great equaliser.
And who's the best ferryman? The guy who's been at this job for ages, weathered, experienced and respected, i.e an old man.
Crows used to be considered psychopomp's, or ferrymen if you will.
The following is a true story: I watched a film about crows in history and went to bed. I started dreaming about a man sized crow that came to guide my soul to the afterlife. I was awakened by some very insistent pecking on my kitchen window-board. I got up and went to my kitchen, and there was a large male hooded crow. He acknowledged my presence and flew off to a branch close to the window. I got a walnut and put it on the board. He came back, grabbed the nut and flew off. It was the first, and hitherto last time that I saw him there.
Yes, meat eating birds were alongside dogs as animals considered to be able to take a body from this realm to the other realm. I have made a video about this but haven’t released it yet, but when you its out I think it may interest you. It will probably be called Dogs of Death Rituals, or something like that.
If you think about it, Gandalf vs Balrog on the bridge (a scene that Tolkien had in his head long before he started to write LOTR) is definitely influenced by the angels fighting devils on bridges. This puts the Bridge of Khazad Dum in a new light to me, especially as the bridge is actually in a kind of underworld and the very character of Gandalf is clearly Odin influenced.
Yes, Gandalf is very much a flavour of Odin.
Tolkien took great influence from Jacob and Wilhelm Grimm who didn't only write fairy tales, but catalogued the bulk of pre Christian pre roman GOTHIC literature. And admits doing so freely. There is no such thing as Proto dildo European. It is either called Gothic or Aryan and has been so for millenia
@stephenhargrave7922 You started well (scholars use multiple sources, and Tolkien was a scholar), but you quickly drifted into ideological nonsense. Calling Indo-Europeans "Goths" is an anachronous nonsense. Germanic tribes are no more Indo-European than Celts, Slavs, Greeks, etc. That said, Aryan was just an obsolete name for Indo-Europeans, which is the one you should use if you do not want to sound like an amateur or worse. A hint: the term Aryans is used in modern literature as a synonym of Indo-Iranians. It's easy to guess that's ot what you mean by it.
@@stephenhargrave7922 Proto dildo European? I'm not sure that's what you meant, but your point still stands.
You can find the name Gandalf in the Poetic Edda, Voluspo.
He was one of the dwarfs related to Hori in The Bible.
Hori lived in the earth near Ai, and he had a cousin named Alvan.
In the Edda's, his name is Hor and he has cousins named Alvin, Ai, and Gandalf.
Joutenhiem the land of giants in the Poetic Eddas is Judeanhome, the place David killed Goliath.
I was going along listening like, "Yeah this story is pretty old." ...And then you hopped the pond and my brain exploded. This and the Cosmic Hunt are, so far, the ones that made me do a mental spit-take at the sheer age of the stories' roots.
"Old Man" indeed. Sheesh. Dude probably ferried the souls of the dead Beringians.
Thank you for watching and that great comment. It is finding these things out for the first time that blew my mind too! And there is more to come as I was speaking to d’Huy last week who sent me papers on the origins of the dragon myth and flood myth. I hope to make videos in the next few months on these :)
It's probably a representation of funeral rites role in morning.
There's a shit ton of tribes that basically see funeral rites as just a way to get over the death of your loved ones.
My friend's grandmother had a near-death experience years ago and she distinctly recalls herself being near this lake sort of area and this boatsman coming up to get her, and asking her questions. She still remembered this after getting out of her NDE.
Seems like people NDEs are greatlyb impacted by their brains and beliefs. Many christian folks will tell of an experience that mirrors Christian depictions of the after life. Even bon believes seen to experience the predominant narrative of their societies. No proof, just an observation.
@@spoonysmalls We don't really have this boatsman belief in our culture, though. That is the interesting thing. She is way too old to even have any inkling of an idea about such a belief.
I have listened to a handful of NDEs that have people in a valley by a river. I think even Carl Jung’s NDE was in a valley. Strange indeed and it brings to mind how people in altered states have very similar reports- I wonder if this is where these “myths” come from and why they have staying power- through these altered states/experiences.
_“The gates of hell are open night and day;_
_Smooth the descent, and easy is the way:_
_But to return, and view the cheerful skies,_
_In this the task and mighty labor lies.”_
I've always loved the way the planets have been named after Greek and Roman mythological figures - a big reason why mythology and astronomy have been two of my all time favorite subjects. While talking about Charon I started thinking about the planet Pluto and the moons Charon and Styx and how there was a naming contest for two more recent discovered moons of Pluto, of which the names Nyx (now Nix) and Hydra were chosen. With one moon named Styx, Nyx was a natural (and poetic) choice. 😄👍
One of the lesser talked about Greek mythological figures is Hephaestus, whom I found out about when I was doing an English essay on the Greek God of War, Ares. Hephaestus was married to Aphrodite whom left him for Ares. He was the God of blacksmiths, metalworking, craftsmen, carpenters, artisans, sculptors, and volcanos. He's the Greek counterpart of Vulcan.
"Beware that hooded old man at the rudder". "Don't pay the ferryman until he gets you to the other side". ("Don't Pay The Ferryman" by Chris de Burgh). The ferryman in pop culture!
The moment I heard you say the original pronunciation of Charon, the Ancient Greek ferryman, I realized that this is likely where the Russian word for “to bury the dead” comes from, хоронить (horonyt’), as well as its derivatives of “funeral” (похороны) and “to hide from danger by remaining low” (схоронится). A lot of old Slavic paganism and mythology has ties to Ancient Greek equivalents, so it’s not surprising. What is surprising is that I only just now realized there is no single word in modern English for “to bury the dead” like there is in Russian. I don’t know what this means, if anything, but it’s an interesting difference nonetheless.
Thank you for watching and commenting, it is always interesting to read these things.
And serbians say sahraniti (to burry) /sahrana(funeral) and other vers. serbo/croat "pogreb"(funeral) from "grob"(grave)...i belive many other slavic ppl have similar examples...
@@gerillazack77 Grob comes from Germanic graben (to dig) and pogreb is a derivativen so they are not the original Slavic terms. It is interesting that the Eastern Slavic term (possibly the original) means also to protect. An interesting but possibly very old way of thinking.
@@arctic_haze thanks for info I knew that early slavs had some germanic/gothic borrow words as, protoslav. (хlĕbъ), old sl. (hlybx),serbian(hleb/хлеб/хљеб/љеб/леб), oldslavserbian(hlybq), maced.(леб), bulg.(хляб), слов.заст. (hlѐb), slovak.( chlieb), czech.(chléb), north lusatian sorb.(khlĕb), south lusatian sorb.(klĕb), polish(chleb), russian(хлеб), ukr. (хлiб), belorus.(хлеб), gothic(hlaifs), oldfrisian(hlēf), oldhighgerman(hleib), germ(laib), oldisl(hleifr), etc... it may have some indications that both oldslavic and oldgermanic borrowed from third part example greek(κλίβανος/klivanos/oven bread), it may refer that in first place it meant in german as "unleavened bread", in contrast to "yeast bread" old germ. (braua), eng. bread, germ. brot etc... In slavic it could also meant bread mixed with yeast(unleavened bread/kruхъ/крух/croat."krux") which came out from term "kršiti"(to crush) which imo is also borrowed...but not going to prolong it further...
@guerrillazack77 Yes, I knew chleb is a loan word. My native language (Polish) has 3000 German/Germanic loan words. But German has also some slavic ones like Quark or Grenze.
Dude I could not have tapped faster- it makes me smile that you just said you’d be slowing down and doing shorter vids and then put out a baller 40-min Vid on the ferryman!
THANK YOU!!!
Such a wonderful summary and analysis of the related mythology !!
Thank you !!
Finally someone has a lengthy and quality video on Charon and Styx. Thank u, awesome video, man
And thank you for watching!
A side note, somewhat off subject, for those whom watched the video until the end.
It is often remarked that certain original Native American groups appeared physically quite different than the flat faced East Asians of today. It's because they came from a general Siberian / Himalayan Mongoloid groups, not from later to emerge, Chinese nor Japanese strains.
Genetically, it's common for definitely known mixed white/ Native American ancestors, today, to not show up as being Native American, at all, on genetic ancestry tests. Something weird is going on.
There are several possible reasons, such as by chance, the Native American genes did not pass on, but it's so common, such cannot explain so often how common this is.
To cut to the chase, it's suspected some of the oldest lineages of Native Americans crossed the land bridges or via boats, whatever, at a time when the separation of races were not so distinct, as today, as in being transitional between racially caucasian and East Asian - not one or the other but betwixt and between. Meaning harder to distinguish. Meaning whom they are, if their genetics are quite ancient, will not accurately be determined by these tests. That the real lineage may be overlooked or confused.
Not many years ago, a magazine article on genetics supposedly found a man in central Siberia with the "oldest" straight line genetics on earth.
A photo of him revealed dark hair, light skin, medium build, but it's not clear what "race" for he might pass as East Asiatic or he might pass as European caucasian or he might pass as Middle Eastern.
Or ... he is what he is - not an either/ or, but a surprising third option, NOT a mixed race guy, at all, but actually from a transitional ancestry ancient group, where sharp distinctions simply did not, then, exist.
As you suggested - perhaps, as the oldest of human mythologies were not so distinct, either, back then. The world is stranger than we can often imagine.
This is so interesting. It ties in nicely to what I understand about genetics and ADNA studies: namely that we look for what we assume to be there, and often overlook what we don't expect. Yesterday I read about two studies which report that the percentage of Neanderthal admixture in modern humans is much greater than previously assumed. We had been sure that certain biological markers were inherently H. sapiens, so we had been discarding them.
Considering that another study has estimated that Neanderthals and Cro-Magnon interbred before the major OOA event, I would guess that it would be very difficult to pinpoint genetic traits which belong to only one group.
I think ancient humans and hominins have been far more mobile and have mixed populations far more than we now assume.
This particular myth may be sourced in very early traditions. We know from the earliest burials of indo European on the steppes, that the bodies of high status people who died were often transported to the burial sites over distances and (likely) prepared for burials during this process.
Its a myth from times even earlier than that... which raises all sorts of questions. It's fascinating stuff!
Awesome video! It's always fun when we find evidence that something is seriously ancient! I also loved your Cosmic Hunt video. Keep up the great work :)
Thank you for watching, it is always pleasing to hear when people enjoyed the videos.
Perfect. This was exactly the information I was seeking. Thank you for recommending this video. Helps to understand many later stories!
Thank you, this is a very underrated figure in terms of understanding much mythology.
@@Crecganford It really, really was fantastic. I had no idea 'Charon' as I knew him was so very pervasive, I found the parts about Odin absolutely compelling to learn about as well. Once you laid out the motif so clearly, it was 'easy' to see how the threads weave between the stories. I want to thank you for being interactive with the comments too, I had asked about dualism prior and you sent me here. I would never have made the connection to look here on my own. I have many more questions, but I think I need to finish catching up on a few more of your videos before asking more, you seem to have covered a lot of what I am curios about already. Have a wonderful new years, and thanks again.
I've always known him as Charon, from Greek mythology also from a heavy metal song from king diamond lol. But yeah. Ty creganford for expanding my knowledge 😊❤❤❤
Thank you so much for doing this Video. It's been so hard to find information.
Ooh, I do like a bit of the old death myths ✨💀✨
Absolutely fascinating, thanks for putting these out.
And thank you for watching them.
Very very good channel I am glued to them ;)
ln Egyption tombs can be found pictures of Set ( the twin of Osiris) as the ferry man of the sunboat of Ra which descended into the underworld during the night. These images pre-date the Greek by a few thousand years.
Which Greek, original Pelasgian Greek? Not older than Gobekli Tepe. And long after farming cultures started distorting hunter gatherers myths. Did they also have a waiting room for souls in Egyptian myths? But a very good point since the blue above is also a kind of sea. Osiris cut into pieces is also a very IE motive. Scythian customs of kumys making involved hmm touching of animal genitalia also can be traced to oldest cultures worldwide especially in Africa. Not mentioning drinking blood what's obvious.
Not necessarily pre-dating the 'Ancient Greeks' though. What people refer to as the 'Greek legends' are far more ancient than the Classical Greeks, by over 2000 years, and in fact the Greek identity didn't exist then. The legends come from a European Bronze age culture, c.4000-2000BC. After the climate cooled c.2000 BC, the people dispersed in various directions across Eurasia, taking their culture and legends with them.
I am an American of Scandinavian descent. You have been there for me. ❤
Fantastic! I've just subscribed, and really enjoyed your lectures.
Thank you so much for watching, and taking the time to comment. It all supports the channel and so it appreciated.
Thank you for disentangling this so beautifully. It has always interested me, I was reading world myths and fairy tales as a child, and the similarity between all of them akways struck me. Recently I have revisited the Greek myths over and over again. They are so rich in psychology mixed with roots of far older stories and beliefs. When you said Zarathustra means "He whose cows are old", I had to think immediately of the Odyssee and the island of Helios' cows.
Thank you for watching, and it is so good to hear people’s thoughts on these.
The Rig Veda says, Indra was very rich in cattle.
The Torah says, Abraham was very rich in cattle.
The Bible says, Abraham was very rich in cattle.
The similarity of legends and themes across the Indo-European culture comes from an ancient dispersal of people from Europe at the end of the Bronze Age, about 2000BC. The European Bronze age, c.4000-2000BC, was a high point in ancient culture, with a complex society and long-distance trade. What we call the 'Ancient Greek' myths come from this time, but they were probably an early Norse people based in northern Europe (according to "The Baltic Origins of Homer's Epic Tales").
After the climate cooled c.2000 BC, the people dispersed in various directions, taking their culture and legends with them. Some went south to the Mediterranean, eventually becoming the Classical Greeks. Other went east to India, as the ancient Aryan people, founding the caste system.
I've always wondered what this myth meant, my nan before she passed asked us to pay the ferryman before she is buried and I never understood until now
16:38 its been long enough.... but NOW i understand what you mean by this... you truly are a GEM of mythology! 😁
Thank you for your kind words.
Splendid! Thoroughly enjoyable video!
Thank you!
My favorite channel !!! Thank you
Thank you!
I'm researching Charon for a game I'm making and this was an amazing video to watch. So much great info! Thank you!
You’re welcome.
Great interesting video thanks for sharing. 👍⚡🔥
I know it might be a big ask, but could you share the resources/reading list for these stories? Keep up the great work. You and CG Dahlin do excellent comparative religion studies on YT.
Thank you. I have put a list of reference texts in the description of the video. Most of these will can be acquired in an electronic format making the searching for text within much easier (it is what I use with tools such as dtSearch and Mendeley). If you want a specific story(ies) that you can't find then just ask here and I can point you in the right direction. I hope that helps.
@@Crecganford Thanks, mate! I’ll be sure to reach out if I have any other questions. Take care.
THis was amazing! thank you so much!
Thank you
I subscribed before the introduction was over after checking out the other videos. Your voice is very soothing though it was a little startling to actually see you as its not common similar videos to see the person presenting the video but I honestly don’t mind. I did have to turn on Subtitles as it is a little hard to understand what your saying.
Thank you, and my audio does get better in the newer videos, but I will always ensure I have good subtitles too.
To further develop the ferryman image in early Buddhism, samsara (our world) is on this shore and nirvana is on the other shore. For Buddhism, then, we become our own ferryman, and the dharma is our boat (which we leave behind once we get to the otherside as an awakened one). The first stage of enlightenment is that of the Stream Enterer. The next two stages are called the once returner and the non-returner, which also also speak to the crossing of the river and the two realms.
AWESOME!!!! I cant wait to see this one! I have a song about the ferryman!
Very well done video. Another story that seems to have a similar origin to this extremely ancient story of the lost wife at the river--the Scandinavian story of Harpens Kraft (the harp's power). A bride's sisters are kidnapped by a supernatural being into a river on their respective wedding days. The last sister tells her husband if they cross the river, she'll be taken too. This happens. The hero plays his harp to convince the monster to give her back, and does so well, the monster agrees to return the bride. In some versions, she's already dead upon being returned. In some, she's living.
That's a great tale, I will try and find a version of that in book form. Thank you!
@@Crecganford Spelling should be Harpans kraft
@@katarinawikholm5873 Depends on if it's swedish or norwegian. If it's swedish you'd be right, but in norwegian it would be spelled "Harpens Kraft".
This looks definitively as a modified version of the Orpheus myth.
@@katarinawikholm5873 I'm familiar with it through the Danish version, which is spelled Harpens kraft.
Thank you, I would love to learn more
The idea that PIE culture seems to have had metallurgy and watercraft is interesting.
This, of all the great tales that I have found on this channel, is the one I wanted the most...
Here in the Inca cosmos, when men died, they descended go the Kay Pacha (the underworld) where all the running bodies of water of the world are connected in a wide beautiful lake that must be crossed to reach the afterlife... Is it possible that this myth is also originated in the proto Indo-European myths?
I always wandered it, because of the crossing of a lake even though there's no mention of a Ferryman... but, since the empire was not as developed in navigation as other cultures is kinda understandable.
Thank you, sir, for sharing all this knowledge about one of my absolute favorite mythical creatures... Thank you very much!
I'll always be waiting for a new video from... Crecganford. Sharing this right now!
Thank you for your kind words, and for watching the video. It is really appreciated.
Given the distance in time between common connections, the origin would be in a much older tradition.
It's highly likely that your legends come from the proto-Indo-European myths. The legends come from a European Bronze age culture, c.4000-2000BC (some, such as the ferry-man, pre-date even this). After the climate cooled c.2000 BC, the people dispersed in various directions across Eurasia, taking their culture and legends with them. It's this ancient dispersal that gave us the widespread Indo-European culture.
From what I've read, (and it may even be earlier than this) some of these Europeans crossed over to South America and even spread across the Pacific (they were a sea-faring people, an early Norse culture). The legend of the blond, bearded god Quetzal Coatl would probably be from this migration. There are even native blond-haired people in New Zealand who claim to have arrived in the islands before the Maori, having travelled in ancient times from Europe, via South America (maybe 5000 years ago, if I remember). See "New Zealand Skeletons in the cupboard", it's fascinating!
The ending is just explosive! I forgot what I wanted to write. Hear me out. So Greek Geront meaning old man as old men council gerusia. While Charon is read as Karon. In Poland when person dies in front of house is put a black flag called Kir. Black color normally is czarny but for horses it's kary (like turkic kara) but word kara means punishment/penalty.
The river Charon crosses is Styx/Styks. In polish styk means joint, contact spot, binding. Tyk from tykać to touch. This & quote about swift river flowing from east to west and from West to north... Brings right away Tigra, elemite name of Tigris river in Mesopotamia, shape more less accurate. Let's be honest it's not far from IE cradle on the other side of Caucasus. More shockingly considering it as one with Euphrates the river "touches" Caucasus with it's source origin, the other Euphrates source nearly touches the Black Sea. There was a point at time long ago when Black Sea was a fresh water sea(in polish it's sweet water). So the moment it opened & connected with Mediterranean salty waters was a shock for both fishes & people inhabiting it's shores. Original name was not black sea but dark colored sea from Iranian axšaina & then Greek pontos axeinos inhospitable sea. Enough dark omens in name to be related with death? In Zoroastrian called Siyābun(syabun is a river in Nepal too, siyah is black/sable in Turkish, sijoh ob = black water in Tajik ). Rivers connected directly with black sea of interest are Kuban/Hypanis, Southern Bug - Bug from buga, *bheug either steep river or bend river. Sakarya/Sangaris (with S shape), Iris with source in Sivas (close to Shiva isn't it, Siwa in polish is gray/dark/old). Check out Hittites religion & myths. They had a priest-king & focused on chthonic, earth related, even summoning them in a kind of necromancy. And they had unusual behavior towards gods, informal & direct as if they had a deal & had right to be displeased when god's didn't oblige. Their primordial God was Kumarbi father of sky god Tarhunt. Goddess of sun Inara wants to kill serpent and uses a man Hupašiya to help. Anatolia & Caucasus & Mesopotamia seems to be the key here and all of it points at Gobekli Tepe.
It sounds like you enjoyed that video, and thank you for watching. And thank you for writing your comment, which had a lot of information in it. It is appreciated.
The topic of the old / *free* man reminded me of the practice of (ancient) Indian householders, who left house and family to find salvation through ascetic and spiritual exercises and / or wandering the country as monks. Also, the Jain ford maker (tirthankara) as spiritual pathmaker ties in nicely and seems an avenue for further drilling into the past esp. in comparison with Zarathustra. Just an associative speculation: on the young side of male life in the steppe derived cultures there could be a link to the koryos, a wolf/dog themed group of young men setting off as initiatory, warrior-in-training band, earning their living by stealing from their environment (think Odysseus stealing sheep).
A very Dacian thing
~wonderful and fascinating as always, my thanks o~
Thank you
Found you while miserable with Covid - and you're helping. Thank you.
I've just recovered from another bout of it myself, get well soon!
Odin seems to slide into so many indo European god archetypes. Like, he’s the ferryman, he’s a dying and rising god , he’s a trickster, he’s a magician with secret knowledge, he’s a king-father, probably more…
He is very complicated, with many influences, and I will be talking about this soon.
@@Crecganford i love to see it man
Really interesting video. So the concept of the good being sorted out from the evil is a very old idea.. Older than the Ice Age apparently. There's a bridge or a boat involved, but never the less there's a separation of the dead.
You should do a video on the cycles of time. I'm really curious on exactly how old that concept is? I think the Norse have Ragnarok, the Indians have the Kali Yuga, Mayans had the 2012 deal with the calendar and the Abrahamic monotheisms of the day seem to be either plotting or predicting the end of time every year. These predictions of the end must be old for them to be so abundant?
It's just a suggestion. I understand you've got a ton of material queued up for content, but it's something I'd be interested in seeing.
A great suggestion, thank you. I will start looking into that soon :)
I vaguely recall having at least 2 whole lecture sessions in a survey course (about historiography and religion for non-majors) focused on Jewish eschatology, so there's definitely a deep history to the Abrahamic end of time predictions.
That was so interesting, thank you.
And thank you for finding my channel, and watching it.
Love the rune shirt you’re wearing! Is that available through your channel?
Hi, yes... it is here... crecganford.creator-spring.com/listing/50-names-of-odin and if you use M3RCH as a code you get 10% off. Thanks for watching, and if you buy a T-Shirt I hope you like it!
@@Crecganford Ordered! Can’t wait to get it! Thanks for your work on the channel! Love this stuff!
It's always nice to have people look into old tales... especially when they include yourself... :D
Thank you!
I have a feeling that many of these may in fact be the result of near death experiences. People don’t just see light tunnel. Some see boats and islands.
According to Wikitionary, "karl" comes from the diminutive form of karaz which comes from PIE gerh, so it's actually "little old man" or "young man", which lines up with the usage to refer to warriors.
Wow talking about thoughts manifest actions, I was literally thinking about this subject 2days again. (Just thinking only) Get on YT today, and 💥 your video on the subject was first on the list to choose from!🤯. That's wild 😀
I hope you enjoyed it.
To be a ferryman sounds like a sort of ironic punishment such as was inflicted on Tantalus. I think there is something of that in how Bres uses the Dagda and Ogma. I also ran into Lir who was forced to ferry people in one Irish myth.
Wonderful backgrounder on Indoeuropean thought
Thank you
An incredibly well made video, thank you!
The Ferryman also makes a memorable appearance in WKRP in Cincinnati.
My dear friend. I so enjoy you. I must also say I had trouble with my phone and missed my connection with you so tonight is wonderful.
Interesting! Thanks for the knowledge.Remember the Hida myth,the people came out the ocean,not just a land bridge but by boat as well.
There are a few creation myths tied up in their mythology and I will look at them all with time, including the ocean motif. Thank you for watching, and for taking the time to comment.
Amazing, your revelation that Zarathustra is Charon links to Nietzsche's personification Zarathustra as he who announces the Overman.
Thank you, very intersting
And thank you for watching
Great video. This made me think of the Lord of the Rings scene with the spokesman ghost of the oath breakers who blocked a narrow pass and said to Aragorn "The way is shut. It was made by those who are dead and the dead keep it." This spokesperson for the dead then lead all the dead out of the narrow pass to fulfill their oath. The dead had been to this point held unable to move on to the final realm of the dead because they never paid their price. They were due to pay the price of loyalty. That was their coin. It shares some parts of a ferryman story.
Thank you for watching, and for taking the time to comment. It is appreciated.
I first heard about the ferryman Charon from a Mercyful Fate song
The Buddhist “yana” is usually translated as “vehicle,” not “ferry-boat”, and it fits various expressions involving turning wheels/cycles/Laws. It doesn’t carry dead souls to the afterlife, but is a way where all beings can transcend suffering and achieve nirvana (which is not the same thing as paranirvana/death/afterlife/reincarnation). So I don’t see how Buddhist yanas fit the ferry-man myth in that sense.
Odin retains funerary vestiges in the character of Sleipnir whose eight legs reflect the coffin bearers, itself a kid of boat
So well spoken and conveyed...are you a scholar in this subject or an enthusiast?
I'm a researcher at a University who has been studying this area for 20+ years. But I present this work as an independent researcher to keep this separate from my day job.
These are really neat. I was interested in European mythology since I read Bullfinch as a kid. And later "The Golden Bough" and epics. This subject reminds me of the Ancient Egyptians and their concept of the underworld as the west shore of the Nile. Maybe the Pharoah' coffin being brought to the pyramids or Valley of the Kings on a barge. Also that story about King Arthur dying and getting carried by boat to the Isle of Avalon. Maybe rooted in some Celtic myths.
Yes, there is certainly Celtic influence in there, and I carry on exploring this when I talk about the “Otherworld” and after life in later videos. These may interest you too. Thank you for watching and taking the time to comment.
Yes, this was a great review of this global myth of death and passage over water. I also thought of the Ancient Egyptians and their cult of death, which he didn't really include although it seems to fit well with this theme. I thought they had a very elaborate tradition that the bodies of the dead pharoahs had to be taken on a long journey to the underworld, which was, as you say, west of the Nile.
Beautiful
This was wonderful
Thank you
this dude has a really soothing voice
I would like to point out that the German tale "The Gingerbread Man" is part of these stories of the Ferryman. In this he represented as a Fox who offers to swim the Gingerbread Man across the river. But as they reach the shore the fox tosses him in the air and "snip, snap, eats him up, But that's alright because Gingerbread Man was a cookie and cookies are supposed to be eaten". Interestingly, Red Foxes have white on their mouths and chests that look just like a great bushy white beard. Now I would like to blow your mind. The Cherokee Indians have a set of stories that are near mirrors to many of Aesops Fables. The Tortes and the Hare is most identical. My mother used to have a copy of a little self published book that had all the stories in them. I will see if she is still in possession of the book. There was only some 350 of this book made but it isn't the only recording of them. There was a burial mound in TN that was excavated in the early part of the 1900's when a bank was being built. It was recorded and packed up and sent to the Smithsonian where is sat for several decades. In the mid to late 70's they got around to looking at it. First a huge tree had been growing on the top of the mound. The core sample was included and it dated the burial mound to 400 years before the Cherokee. Next there was a coin in the mound that had these words "The Lion of Judah". Other parts of the findings pointed to Phoenican influence. As I remember, this roughly dated to the time of Alexander the Great's campaigns and may have been part of people leaving the Levant to avoid that. This was all published somewhere between 1975 to 1980, most likely 78-79 because I graduated in 1980. So there was some people getting here by that point. There was several skeletons in the find. I wonder if they have DNAed them now to know for certain their origins. I wish I remembered the name of the publication that printed the story but it was definitely the property of the Smithsonian. On future subjects I wonder if you could look at the Pandemonium, the time when in Greek myth that Rhea called a war with the men of India and summoned men from the Mediterranean area to come and fight them in Persia and Dionysus from Cyprus goes. This would have been when the people who became the Hindu separated from the those who became the Persians. Rhea accused them of heresy and telling a Big Lie. Pandemonium means "all demons" meaning that each called the others god's demonic or so it was explained in the things I was reading. I would love to hear more from someone who has as deep a grounding in PIE as you do. I have been trying to understand the split and what the Big Lie was. Unless there are older things I have missed this seems to be the first war caused by a schism in religion.
Thank you so much for watching, and taking the time to write this. Very interesting and a lot to take in. I will add many of these items on to my To Do list!
I love it how etymology makes sense. It feels like 3d expansion of a 2d understanding of the world.
Thank you for watching it, this particular video was incredibly inspiring to make.
@@Crecganford and very inspirational to watch. Thank you for the effort sir. Much appreciated.
Most of the material I've read translates Mahayana as "great vehicle", I've never heard it translated as "big ferryboat", that's interesting. Similarly, "hinayana" seems most often rendered as "lesser/small vehicle". "Yana" I've seen translated to mean 'a way of reaching enlightenment', or a path of spiritual practice, rather than a boat in particular, though it is described using the metaphors of crossing a river sometimes, so I suppose it's got an element of boat-ness to it. The impression that I got is that it's not so much about something that happens to you after you die and more about peoples' practice while living. Probably a bit of both, I suppose.
The fairy man was my nickname in high school.
do you have any more reading you would recommend on this mythology in the Americas? I find it extremely fascinating! Thank you
There have been many books/papers in the last 50 to 100 years looking at stories of First Nation Americans, although not always academically sound, but they may provide a fascinating insight. Did you read about the Odepius Myth in North America? Or are you after something more generic, Anna Birgitta Rooth wrote an interesting paper on Creation Myths which you maybe able to find on Google.
@@Crecganford Thank you so much! I am excited to read more
Very interesting!
Thank you
Dont Pay him, dont even fix a price. - Chris De Burg
Velikovsky claimed that Native Americans have myths about the sun once not appearing for one whole day and there being a very very long night, while Joshua in the bible tells of the sun standing still and a very very long day, just the opposite. If based on an actual event these two acounts would be due to the different geographic locations on earth. Whatever the value of that speculation I love how you make these mythologial comparisons between different parts of the earth.
Carlo Ginzburg's wonderful book "Ecstasies" traces rhe world wide prevalence of the Cinderella story back to Siberian shaman rites.
Like that your type of enquiries are simply fascinating!
Dave Shafer
Maybe it's been mentioned and I'm unaware of any actual connection but, often times in my research, some cultures believed to have a beard meant "one who could see". I always keep an eye open for the old one eye, who is well known for his sight.
Thank you for this presentation. Might I suggest that in spite of the Bering Landbridge connection, that a 'ferryman' or The Old One who guides the dead is intrinsic somehow to a thoughtful people anywhere. 💐
You could, a Jungian motif if you will. But then why would his name be the same in all those places? Why would the story of getting your dead wife from the otherworld be the same? The use of snakes the same? There's a lot there to be just coincidental across the world.
@@Crecganford Of course, I should have seen that. Well-done! I love where it led, and since first hearing of the Roman version, it never left me as such a kindness to the dead loved-one toward the 'land of the dead'. DH Lawrence wrote a poem ''The Longest Journey'' which speaks of an alternative to the ''common barge'' of delivery which rather challenged the universality of delivery. Thanks again.💐
there's kind of an orpheus myth in japan too! izanagi and izanami (in the kojiki iirc). but after looking back, the god izanagi realizes his wife izanami is now dead and looks hideous (she ate the food of the underworld), so he bolts. the goddess is offended and furious and chases him towards the world of the living (upwards) but he's locked the exit with a boulder. they're also protagonists of the creation myth! "They were the eighth pair of brother-and-sister gods to appear after heaven and earth separated out of chaos. By standing on the floating bridge of heaven and stirring the primeval ocean with a heavenly jeweled spear, they created the first landmass" that would be the four main islands of japan. basically he lifted some mud from the ocean and drizzled it on top like a pollock
Thank you for sharing that, I shall find a copy of this for my records. Thank you!
@@Crecganford np!! I'm so glad I found your channel, im binge watching your videos and learning so much!
@@Crecganford so thank YOU for making these videos and making this knowledge so accessible!!
I have learned something!
Thank you for watching, and letting me know, it is always appreciated when I receive feedback like this. Thank you.
Nekropompos is an amazing name lol, it conjures an image of a much more flamboyant ferryman haha
Hindu customs also include placing rice and coins on the dead prior to cremation. Except there is no obvious ferryman in Hindu myth and the coins and rice is considered sustainence for the departed soul. This ferryman story is probably very ancient and somehow was lost in translation somehow in Hindu funerary customs
Come to think about it, in Mayan and Nahua afterlife there isn't one possibility, but, the god of the waters, rivers, and rain, he was always portrayed as an old and wise deity. Now, here is the kick: if you died by suicide, drowning or hanging, you would go to his afterlife, a mansion of water, and will hang(not by the neck, mind you) from a divine tree as a baby, the tree feeding you milk from breasts. Until you were chosen to go back to life, to have another try. Of course, there are many versions of this, and it is heavily warped after the Spanish Conquest, especially the part of how you hang and what would happen with you thereafter...
In ZEN the primary sutra is THE HEART SUTRA and contains the need to 'cross over'..i.e. to reach enlightenment the 'other shore'.. and the Bikhu who is doing this is AVOLOKETSHAVARAH.. This comes from the Mahayanah
What if, in the original story some 15,000 years ago, the ferryman represented each individual soul’s human body, and the river or travel represented the body’s journey through this world as it carried the soul through life? The soul (consciousness, observer, etc.), moving from one state of being to another, boards the boat at birth, and leaves on the other side of this time-based 3D space when the boat gets old and lands on the other side of life. If this way of thinking started around that time period it may line up with some of the ancient scrolls found in the Tibetan mountains that contain similar concepts and allegedly are about the same age. If you get the chance I’d love to hear your thoughts on whether or not it’s possible for this this legend to have spread outwards around the globe with Tibet as a center starting point.
You mentioned the Native American religions here, and that got me thinking: Do you know of good resources for talking about the origins of beliefs in the Americas, Africa, and East Asia, the same way you're doing for Europe?
The challenge is the amount of good research, although there is some, and my latest videos are going to touch on some of these so we can gain a better understanding of how they viewed the world. I hope you find them interesting.
Perhaps the fragmentary references to a Charon-like character would have been understood more fully by the original audience, even if the "ferryman" was no longer a specific belief. Some years ago I read a story in the New York Times about the ferryman (and his dog) who takes the indigent dead across the river to burial. It was presented as a straightforward news story, yet the references were clear and it was equally clear that modern Americans, after 2000 years of Christianity, would understand.
I want to love these videos, and your knowledge is vast, but as a layman I need a little temporal context… how do all these various threads play together on the timeline and what can be inferred as progressing from the other.
I have a playlist called Proto Indo-European, which may be worth a look. It starts off about the culture, but then goes into videos about how myths and beliefs spread, and this may help provide context this video and others. But feel free to ask questions, as I do try to answer as many as I can.
I do wonder when the concept of paying the ferryman started. You mentioned that those who couldn't pay had to wait before they were taken across. I wonder when that began and if it had to do with more than money, like some people's lives had more value than others.
I think I like the 'older' belief, that all of 'us' go to the same place in our ends. No favoritism in death.
Interesting thoughts, and thank you for sharing, and for watching the video.
you show western and eastern PIE.
What is the middle part shaded green, Uralic?
We're just not sure exactly where those two would have met, and so consider it yellowy red.
Permit me to recommend Lawson's magnificent book Modern Greek Folklore. It contains numerous post-classic tales of Charon, who was evolved into a Death figure himself.
I’m not sure I have that in my library, but will look it up. Thank you for watching and the recommendation.
I think there is Much more Depth in many characters that are dealt with as superficial. i.e. Achilles = what did he really felt? thought? dreamed? he was a product of his times, and what was that exactly? but inside him there was his Personal world.... we all pretend to be what is acceptable by society in order to be members, but each of us have our secret thoughts and dreams and take our decisions with them... our personal journey is not what the society records....
Uhrshanaby the ferryman mentioned in the story of Gilgamesh and Enkidu. And again, Gilgamesh failed to bring Enkidu back from the dead.
This is great. It's fascinating that this myth of a journey over water to an underworld is found especially in the west, while it exists in a more abstract form in the eastern beliefs. Surely the Egyptian cult of death and tradition of a journey to the Underworld for dead pharaohs is part of this theme ? I vaguely remember this being a very involved and long boat journey starting from the west side of the Nile, and it had to be done 'correctly' for the Pharaoh to reach the Underworld and after-life. Apparently many mysterious remains of Egyptian culture have been found in Ireland ... is this where the journey ended ?
I can't help thinking that this westward journey was about re-tracing the roots of the Pharaohs back to their Atlantean origins, a place that is now under water, ie. the Underworld. I've read that the pharaohs claimed that the first dynasties of Egyptian pharaohs were Atlantean, having settled in Egypt after the sinking of Atlantis. Plato said that, for the ancient Egyptians, the force of Atlantis was known to come 'from the west'. I've assumed this referred to the tradition among the nomads of the Sahara that the region was once an inland sea, the Triton Sea, on the shores of which were port colonies and trading posts of Atlantis. Although the sea dried out long ago, old maps of North Africa from only a few hundred years ago show a river running east-west across the Sahara, which would have allowed the Egyptians to re-trace their origins back by boat, from the west side of the Nile and across the vanished sea, and back towards the Underworld of Atlantis ... Maybe finally stopping at Ireland was the next best thing ... or that was the place where all the attendants stopped after the formalities for the pharaoh's after-life were complete ?
Thank you fro watching and your comment. There is just too much to respond too here, but I will make more videos that will answer some of your thoughts, and around Middle Eastern tradition and culture before Indo-European influence.