@@razbuten Which is good- most of these kinds of issues in gaming aren't black and white, and the truly insightful conversations are the ones we have about where lines in the sand can lie for different people and why.
@@rarecomment1941 That depends though, I remember back in destiny 1 for example some of the dlc was stuff that had been in the game at launch (not finished but like you could access areas with glitches) and iirc in some trailers that they locked behind The Taken King. If you get the full product and then more that's great, but cutting up what had already been intended is pretty bad.
Bro I’ve been looking for this comment! Dishonored DLC is exactly what I think of when it comes to what makes the perfect DLC, retain the foundation while adding new features and tweaks that motivate people to play instead of writing it off as merely more Dishonored.
I love it when i watch a video and within the first 5 minutes all the things i thought would be interesting have already been said. And then I see there's another 10-20 minutes left that go so much deeper into the topic than I ever would have hoped from that video.
Yeah, hopefully you enjoy it all! Originally the video was just gonna focus on those ideas I touch on in the first half or so, but then after talking to the various devs, I realized that there is a lot that goes unsaid about how hard DLC is to actually make. People often get the perception that it is all an easy cash grab (which it occasionally is of course), but in a lot of cases, it is as massive labor of love that goes underappreciated.
I love how Outer Wilds used its DLC to present a counter-point to its central themes and then dismantled that counter-point to STRENGTHEN those central themes. It's the kind of thing that probably couldn't have been done without being made as a DLC. The meta-knowledge of it being a segmented, additional part of the story allows us to separate it in our minds and let it act as its own argument.
Torna and Future Redeemed are the perfect arguments in favor of all things “DLC” Shorter, further refined companion pieces that build off their base games without needing to justify being their own separate, full-priced games like every AAA game seems to be and can instead be valued at lower to compensate. Ignoring the fact that they did in fact release Torna as a standalone in an absolute power-play of a move. Heck, I think Torna is an example of cut content done truly right even though no one on the internet would dare say that cutting and reselling content is ever the right choice. But with them cutting it out from the base game they opened up all the side content, progression paths, and extra endgame activities to be present in Torna for players to engage with without having to play through every chapter of the base game that was supposed to come before its place in the story, and rather than railroading players out of the otherwise open-world base game’s present time in order to present what would have been a very lengthy flashback sequence. Basically everything was done right for the situation they had in their hands (tight development thanks to BotW) and they made it work so much better than anyone could have imagined it would.
@@Boulder7685 Everything but gating progression behind community. It is thematically justified, but you still shouldn't force players to do most of the side quests. But other than that, both expansions are, indeed, phenomenal
@@prfctstrm well yeah I’m not gonna deny that they have problems as games but I’m just saying here that they don’t have problems as DLC and are even, in fact, better off because they are DLC.
Rain World's DLC, Downpour, from earlier this year is a really good example of this. The damn thing is basically five fully fledged sequels to Rain World all in one as a DLC for the original game. It expands the world, lore, mechanics and overall content of the game so much that the original campaign from the base game now feels like a tutorial or a tech demo. Really insane stuff.
This questiom reminds me of Torna and Future Redeemed, DLC for Xenoblade 2 and 3 respectively. Both are such great games on their own that improve and change so much from their base games that they basically are whole games. Like you said, they build off the base game and instead use the time to perfect everything, to where it all just seems better. They are of course, shorter, but still very worthwile experiences that I wouldve been happy spending another $60 for, but instead only paid $20-$40.
In all honesty, both Xenoblade 2 and 3 have some of the best dlcs of all time. They adress complaints about the main game while improving the already great aspects, they have huge worlds that feel pretty much standalone, and are priced in a way that they feel like a steal. I loved both dlcs and I recommend both to anyone who has had a hard time getting into the Xenoblade series, torna for Xenoblade 2 and future redeemed for Xenoblade 3 are fully lengthed too so you will be getting the bang for you buck
Xenoblade 2's DLC is decently meaty. Very excellent value for money. Mechanically, it's barely attached to the original at all. Bit dragged out, though. Narratively... narratively, much better written than the main game, but part of that seemed to be the original trying to write around the DLC. But well, I have huge gripes with how Xenoblade 2 handles it's plot and characters. (And XB3, to a lesser extent.)
@@poetryflynn3712 I only played CrossCode because he recommended it in his video “Indie Games You Missed (maybe? idk your life)” from July 2021, so if he ever criticized it, he came around to it a long time ago.
I started that game on game pass and it felt like I was playing an h game made in rpg maker that didn't have much to offer, so I stopped. But with how much praise it's getting, I think I should probably try it again
This video made me realize that BOTH my favourite bosses - strictly mechanically, not story-wise - from Hollow Knight, Nightmare King Grimm and Pure Vessel, came from DLC content. And both fights have what I would describe as really solid, steady rhythm. I guess Team Cherry really mastered the flow of their bosses after the completing the base game.
@@myweirdsecondchannelwithap9070 I love the Mantis Lords, but I think the one flaw is that they don't have a shared hp pool. Finishing them off one by one makes the end of the fight kinda anticlimactic imo
Rain World's DLC that came out earlier this year was awesome; easily five or six times larger than the base game and full of fantastic content. What makes it quite unique is that the base game released in 2017, and this DLC came out in 2023, but it's really propelled the game's popularity recently.
TOTK feels like a DLC in the best way possible. It feels like they weren't wasting ressources on re-inventing the wheel. More than that it felt like 'coming home' and 'being able to play my favorite game of all times for the first time again' and that is a feeling i have never had with any game ever.
It blows my mind just how different it feels from BotW. So many areas are different from the terrain changes and fallen ruins. I was worried that reusing the same world would lead to having similar set pieces but it's practically a whole new world to explore. And that's not even touching about how much of the game changes just because you have different powers than the previous one. It's really quite amazing!
Ragnarok seems to be the same type of sequel as TOTK. Reusing assets isn’t a bad thing at all, i’d rather the devs work on gameplay and story instead of creating totally new assets.
Which is why the Like a Dragon (Yakuza) series felt special. You get to see the same map from the original game evolve over time and get the chance to explore other aspects of it like never before. Sure they also add new location to spice things up, but exploring Kamurocho in all of the games feels like a natural progression, as it changes with you.
Nowadays most things are just revered to as a DLC, but I like the older days when you just got a big expansion (Add-On) a Year later. Most games did this on PC and even some console Games got big expansions. With the DLCs there are more smaller things that get added and that's more frequent. This harms gaming more because the line is to bleary that is worth it and what is not. We should go back to this older naming scheme: - Expansion / Add-On: A big new thing, that is expanding the hole game - DLC: A new Quest Line or a new Weapon - Microtransaction: A skin or something else like it - Lootbox: If a game has this, it belongs in to the Trash!
I kinda agree with that. If it's a big thing that's integrated in the main game, it's an expansion. If it's something more to the side of it, it's an add-on. DLC I see as something in between those and microtransactions, but it can sometimes be hard if you want exact categories. Still, I'd say microtransactions are single things, like items or skins. Sometimes characters. Lootboxes can be fine if the game's free to play. Actually free, not any of the various pretend-free games. A good example of that Fallout Shelter. Perfectly playable without buying anything, but you can if you want to.
Its amazing you got the opprtunity to talk with the Outer wilds producers, never seen somene be able to talk to them and I was always interested in hearing them talk about their thoughts
Battlefield Bad Company 2 Vietnam is one of the best DLC's I've ever played. Vietnam felt like it could have been a standalone game with how much was changed/added from the base game, while still keeping the core fun intact.
The two Monster Hunter DLCs - Sunbreak and Iceborne - are some of the best ever. Both have: - Campaigns comparable in length to the base games. - All monsters are made more aggressive and have 1-2 new moves. - Around 30 monsters are added. - Brand new mechanics that radically change the dynamics of combat. - 2 new areas. - An spectacular final boss. - A strong endgame system that adds so much longevity to the game. - All gear is redesigned. - Only cost $40 each.
Crosscode's a New Hope is a very good example of the knowing your audience for DLC as while there were some who criticised the base game for it's dungeon length I was firmly in the camp that loved how extensive they were and really got so much out of puzzle mechanics and enemies and was ecstatic to find out that a New Hope leaned into it
For me, Horizon Zero Dawn, The Frozen Wilds was a great DLC, absolutely loved the extra little story that came with it as well as the fantastic map design in a completely new environment (ice and snow), plus the inclusion of many new mini ways to play the game e.g. new quests (like you talked about in the video about creating fun challenges once the playerbase knows the basics of the game). Another thing that was massively improved was the conversation side of the game, characters weren't static anymore and had a lot more life while speaking to each other, with funny and awkward interactions with better scripts and voice acting to back this up, which just added to the immersion and fascination for me. That's all, rant over. Great video as always!
My gold standard for a dlc is road to gehenna for the talos principle, giving you more of what made the game in a significantly distinct and coherent experience. Your point on the studios decision to make a dlc a stand alone game made me think about far cry blood dragon and i would be more than open to more studios taking that third route of a stand alone « side game » instead of the classic dlc or sequel conundrum. Thank you for yet another great job on a thought provoking video. Cheers
I tend to draw a line between DLC and expansions. Blood and Wine and Hearts of Stone are expansions. DLC is horse armour/a few small additions like some quests or weapons, etc.
No. Expansions are huge additions to the core game. DLC is cool new content of not nearly the same scope, but content nonetheless that improves the game. What you described are Microtransactions, tiny little pieces of content that are typically only cosmetic items for the player's avatar in some way.
@@Klokinator Based on what you say, if I had to put it in terms of Skyrim; Expansion would be the Dragonborn DLC (new Island), Hearthfire would be DLC and Horse Armor is microtransactions, would that be right? I'm not sure where Dawnguard would be on that scale, maybe more than just a simple DLC but not as big as an expansion?
@@Klokinator DLC isn't always paid. Take Witcher 3 again for example. It has a couple of DLC additions for free that basically just added new weapons and armour. Or the recent update which added the same again, along with a quest line. DLC can certainly be nothing more than a microtransaction, but I see it as a middle ground between that and an expansion. It adds some meaningful content so it isn't a microtransaction, but that content won't last you long in terms of finding everything.
@@nialloreilly702 If something is microtransaction sized but you're not paying for it? That's just an update. Updates can be for any class of added content, but they're always free.
I agree with Niall, and would like to add that all this discussion of what it is, or which is it, is exactly the plan of the higher ups in these corporations want. To get stuck in the discussion if the content is worth being called an expansion or dlc, while trying to divide the game even more so they can sell pieces to us with new buzzwords. I've been interested in this industry long enough to see them create new words and terms, just to sell less stuff to you without you noticing.
I think the "window of relevancy" bit actually isnt that important. you dont necessarily want a dlc to come out just a couple months after the base game because the playerbase has largely been satiated by the base game. of course if you wait a few years people would rather expect a sequel, but releasing an expansion a year after release, give or take, gives time for the playerbase to move on and think about the game, so when an expansion is released they're past the digestion of the base game and are hungry for more
You make a good point. One issue with DLC that comes too late is that players forget how to play the game. Like with Dragon Age Inquisition, the Descent DLC came out about a year later and not only was the content just generally harder than the base game, I had forgotten a lot about how to actually play my characters lol.
I'd also rather have a big DLC like a year later. Depending on what type of game it is, it could prompt a completely new playthrough. E.G. I'd rather have a big revamp DLC for Marvel Midnight Suns than a new character DLC every months because I simply have finished the game and am not going to jump in half a year later, because "Storm" is now a playable character. For multiplayer games, sooner and more frequent DLC and free content upgrades are much more important. For singeplayer games take whatever time you need to make it great. (Looking at you, phantom liberty)
a year is a bit much but i agree with the general point, 4-6 months i think is the sweetspot. you still have had time to digest the game but its still on your mind. if dlc for a single player game i didnt feel like it was 10/10 comes a year later i likely wont really care.
It really depends for sure. I’m just thinking about how we weren’t sure how the outer wilds dlc was going to add anything meaningful, and then I was crying at the credits again
If BotW’s DLC had come prepackaged as part of the game, can you imagine? You beat the 4 divine beasts and a secret 5th zone emerges? How amazing that would have been. Instead you pay for it and know exactly the product you’re receiving, but the experience suffers
my dumbass brain thought you were talking about total war warhammer before realising you meant the witcher (even tough he was talking about the witcher whilst I was reading it)
The combat is so ass I'm a witcher, a supposed lagendarily good swordsman, why do i only have like three attacks? It plagued the whole game for me, had to stop after 35 ish hours. Also Geralt controls way too ''floaty'' (i dont know how else to describe it)/
Outer Wilds was such an affecting game for me that though I own the DLC I'm afraid to replay it. I'm afraid that it will negatively affect what was personally an important moment in my life.
I’m not sure if you’ve yet to play the DLC, but I can really relate with your comment. The main game was such a profound experience for me that I was hesitant to jump back in. I don’t want to overhype it, but I found the DLC somehow more impactful than the main game. The people I know who have also played them also said that the DLC is up to par and possibly even better then the main game. I highly recommend it because, even if you somehow don’t like it that much, it never interferes with the main game and your initial experience, it only serves as the perfect compliment to it.
Outer Wilds is a special game indeed. It and the DLC does something I don't think I've experienced in any other game I've played; you get the first time playthrough experience twice.
@@Bodwaizer how tho Sure it definitely has a different tone but it's just as engaging Elaborate on why you don't like it, please, because "it's nothing like the base game" is straight up false
@@Piokoxer it turns exploration-puzzle game into shitty horror-walking sim with tons of "backtracking" for no reason at all. You can call base game walking sim too, but at least we have out ship
Rainworld Downpour is one of the games where the answer to the question is yes, the dlc has 5 extra campaigns, more things in the sandbox mode, challenges, expedition mode and maybe a couple of things that i may be missing but it essentially doubles or maybe even triples the content already in the game along with more mechanics, lore, etc. that is without mentioning the workshop that is practically free and gives infinite more content but its not official.
The thing about the placement of the dlc is really important. I loved bugsnax and was excited for it's dlc but it just felt wrong to keep feeding the islanders buxsnax after experiencing the main game's ending. I actually didn't finish the dlc because of that. And the game also makes you play as if you don't know what will happen eventually .
Mr. Razbuten! I always enjoy your videos, which is a little weird because you focus a lot on "big open world" games (or at least BIG games), the type that I really not get pulled into easily, it has to do with something about "taking it all in". See, I'm over 40 and one of the things I have always loved about games is I can see all the game has to offer, since the NES era for me, "seeing all the game" has been somewhat important, and with big games, I feel like I just can't appreciate all the work put into them. I got a 2nd hand PS4 from by brother with some games in it, fantastic games, but for example, I played The Last of Us 1 and 2 (wonderful by the way), but I got left with the feeling that I didn't see all that there is on them, some guy probably spent a whole week modeling or texturing a single house that you blaze trough and didn't get the chance to appreciate the work done, or the details inside some random garage, or the forests, buildings, etc. At this point you have about 600 comments on this video, doubt you'll catch this, but I always thought of this as an interesting topic.
I think it must be similar to writing a sequel. When I wrote my fiction novel, I spent a lot of time thinking about the basics like how characters look, how they behave, and what they sound like when they speak in dialogue. I spent a ton of time thinking about the world and what it looked like and the rules of the universe I was building. When I wrote the second book, the sequel, all of that basic stuff is established. I could focus more on the fun stuff like the plot and where I wanted my story to take the reader. Sure, I needed new characters here and there, but the bulk of the work was done. The world had been built. Because it was easier for me, I think the sequel was a better story. The third book, though, I have been procrastinating starting it because I know my characters end up in a new olace never seen before and I'm kind of reluctant to get back into world building mode. Also, I have the valuable experience to draw on when writing the second one. I have had an entire book's worth of practice.
What book is it? I won't check it out. but honestly if I see it in a library I will say "Oh hey some guy on youtube wrote that" and then maybe I will get it.
@@eyesack6845 They aren't published. I'm one of those insufferable people who talks about writing all the time but never publishes anything. Maybe one day. It's a mental health thing I need to overcome before I can do anything with it. And I don't actually talk about it all the time.
Literally just got to the Witcher 3 DLCs last month as well. Such amazing pieces of content man. Also shoutout to Regis, the best fictional character to exist.
Seeing some CrossCode was very nice. Also, when one of the game's devs talks about creating a long dungeon, I can assure you they mean *long*. To beat the NPC you race most dungeons with, you must complete the dungeon in less than two hours. This is an enormous dungeon with 5 floors for 58 rooms, some of which absolutely gigantic, that makes you switch from advanced puzzle to tight combat, both making use of literally everything in the game, in the blink of an eye, the timer will be very tough to beat.
The first ever big DLC I ever played was Skyrim’s amazing “Dawnguard” expansion. It has now been overtaken as “best DLC ever” by Blood and Wine, but it will always hold a special place in my heart. Go play it if you haven’t
I know uncharted Lost Legacy is not a true DLC but I think that kind of expansion could be made more often. It was visibly a uncharted game but something felt different and I think DLC should be like that not changing too much from the base game but providing something new and intriguing which completely sold me.
I think Jedi: Survivor (though I am yet to play it), and Insomniac's Spider-Man 2 (though that is also yet to have any gameplay reveal), will also be good examples of games that build off of their predecessors, like you said with GoW2 and Tears of the Kingdom. I think it's something that is growing in the industry.
Another benefit to DLC development is it provides a good testing ground for new talent. With lower cost investment and smaller risk than a full game, DLC gives the team the flexibility to try putting people in different positions. For larger companies, this can be the springboard for a new development division or a good opportunity to test new team leads before handing the torch down. An easy example is the COD Zombies Devs who gave some of the DLC map slots to Jason Blundell to helm the development of as he would be taking over as game director for the franchise from that point on.
My man Raz, I wanted to recommend you a brazillian indie game called "The legend of hero" which is a 16 bit plataform game where a song is playing on each level and it sings about what you are doing at the moment. If know your taste for games from the other videos, I bet you are going to love it Ps: if for some reason it does not show on steam, look for the original name "A lenda do herói"
And I'm reading while putting together final grades for 2 classes. I'm going to have to watch again, though, because I want to be able to pay even more attention.
@@bencegergohocz5988 You're probably better off getting the sleep, tbh. Unless you were chronically sleep deprived while learning Differential Equations in the first place, then it's iffy.
Love how you asked developers about the process of making dlc as a uni student for game development it’s cool to see more information about the process of developing games and dlc and peoples thoughts on them
Interesting points. I think I've had a similar experience with DLC's, for instance the ones from Fallout games which were pretty surprising. I think it's also because devs have less pressure once the game has been released. The crunch period is over, some ideas were left behind and they can now be used for some additional content. People expect a slightly different experience so they have the freedom to offer something unexpected. 😌
Great video! If I could make one suggestion, I would love to see a label for each game you show. Sometimes in your videos you'll show a clip from a game that looks interesting, but I have no context clues to even figure out what the game is. Would love to have a little overlay saying the game's title (which I do realize is extra work on your part). Thanks for all the great content!
You know what game deserved good DLC? Zelda II. (Actually, I'm not even kidding. If DLC existed when Zelda II was released, that could have given Nintendo a chance to take advantage of its unique gameplay with more polished level design. Zelda II would be a great, one-of-a-kind game if the level design was better.)
New Vegas DLC is incredible too, they all connect together ( except for one, but that had Joshua Graham ) to build a cohesive story for the main character. I think it's brilliant, tons of interesting situations and gameplay scenarios, fantastic story and characters. Somehow it gave a character with zero backstory other than being a courier more history than either fallout 3 or 4 main characters.
I love Shovel Knight and the expansions were really good. I would say that should be the gold standard for DLC, but that was a massive risk for Yacht Club that took 6 years to complete. That’s not reasonable to ask of most games.
Alex Beachum quotes on a Raz video!!! Hell yeah. This was some fascinating insight from the developer side I'd never fully considered. Hats off for another brilliant video.
People didn't like Bioshock infinite but i did especially after the DLC, Burial At Sea. I liked the Base game as it is but with the DLC the story added just the right amount of information so it is complete with a unique emotional tone that i haven't seen in other games. *Spoiler Free* That exact emotional pay off, even if it's so so painful with barely a shed of light, it is the result of that Base - DLC relationship that Kevin Levin built. It allowed you to gather all the bits and make your conclusion. To me, that DLC was the first one where the characters popped out of the screen, Elizabeth by the end of it felt like she was real, the emotional complexity i have built up in my head of her is thanks to the care and detail they've given the game and the supernatural elements that make certain emotional positions possible. That DLC was one of those that made you think about the game afterwards. *Spoiler* The entire game, base and DLC is a tragic, morbid twisted tale of sacrifices and hope, the base story ending on morbid hope. The DLC ends on a tragic sacrifice; Elizabeth always found solace being able to see her alternative realities, dreams of a better life. This Hope lived as long she was lost among the sea of dreams of her other self's reality but once you cut her from it she'll have to face reality alone, her own reality, a sacrifice with no hope.. Base game and burial at sea Elizabeth is the same character, not two alternatives. The journey we were on was with the Elizabeth with dreams of Paris, a innocent character in the base game, a guilt heavy lost soul in the DLC. Those dreams were hers and hers only. It dies with her at the bottom of a foreign dark ocean. Base game, Solid but the DLC elevated it to a masterpiece in my book.
I remember being so in love with my experience playing Point Lookout in comparison to the main Fallout 3. Something about the smaller world and more interconnection between the quests was really magical.
I also think that by the time you play a DLC you tend to focus on the story and blow past tedious core mechanics. A lot of DLCs also ditch the collectibles and complecated skill trees and reduce the item pickups and thus time spent in inventory.
Dark Souls 3 was my first soulsborne game and I loved it. Unfortunately, I skipped the DLC because I read reviews that put me off. Maybe I should have tried them. Thank you!
@@11122Xas with all souls games the expansions are for later, unless you’re an ultra tryhard minmax legend that can kill X boss solo with a spoon The Artorias fight in DS1 and the Midir fight in 3 are my favorites from the series. Definitely recommend at least trying them
i also love DLC that completely lets the devs experiment for example, Blood Dragon or Red Dead’s Undead Nightmare. especially back than it was like $15 which was well worth the price.
Yo Crosscode!!! I love the team behind this game and they put in so much polish and detail with the puzzles and combat that it's actually quite intimidating at first. I hope their next project is super successful!
Honestly haven't watched the video yet but I'm making a comment as early as I can so some people might see it: Dishonored 1 DLC is absolutely goated. Several levels better than those from the base game. Even the arcade mode DLC is crazy fun.
My favourite thing i have played this year and the closest thing i currently have to a GOTY is the Xenoblade 3 DLC "Future Redeemed". It gave me everything i wanted that the base game did not.
If it’s Monolithsoft, then it is probably another entire video game for half of the price. In that case yes, absolutely. In most others? Almost certainly not.
Yeah and even the minor things from the xenoblade 2 and 3 dlc were pretty good, especially the challenge gauntlet mode in 3! Making that whole new mode was really cool.
I have played a couple of really strong dlc expansions recently: Dragon Age Inquisition's Trespasser (which is so important to the story that I don't think it should be a dlc, but that's a different conversation), Horizon Zero Dawn's Frozen Wilds, and Horizon Forbidden West's Burning Shores. I think both of the Horizon dlcs are great examples of what you're talking about. They're tighter and stronger than the base games. They expand on the mechanics of the base games in compelling and interesting ways, but are familiar enough that there is no tutorial or learning curve. The studio already had the development infrastructures in place when making these dlcs and it really shows. Anyway, thanks for the thought-provoking video.
Terraria is the greatest deal I ever had on a game, I bought it around 2011 and ever since then there's always new content. I love their approach so much that I've bought at least 6 extra copies that I've gifted to friends and family
Yeah I've bought terraria on 5 different platforms now I think, there's just so much to do in that game. Not as good a deal for me as one of those platforms doesn't get updated now (Nintendo 3DS) but I wasn't expecting it to get updates so that's not really a problem.
I really want to start making little indy games and I love how Yacht Club handled shovel knight. Include all future content for the early buyers and raise the price a little bit when expansion content is made. I hate how AAA publishers bank on DLC. It feels predatory that they plan on adding content and not including it.
I feel like I ripped them off. I think I paid about a fiver for the base game when it was in a bundle, and got all that extra stuff just thrown in as a bonus. It's an enormously generous game
@@triphazard2906 If you feel like you rippe them off, you can always just buy their next game regardless of whether or not you think you'll like it. You'll put money in their pocket to get rid of that feeling AND you might end up with a game you enjoy?
I feel like what can make DLC feel better than base is when they contain more content of what can be called the “training wheels off” moments of a game that are usually saved for the last few levels of a game in it’s base or for NG+ like with the DMC series
The reason you didn't like the base game as much as the DLCs for TW3 is probably because the base game is a conclusion to the continuation of the book story, which, if you haven't read, can leave you confused and wanting while playing. Meanwhile, the DLCs are much more standalone products, with plenty of new characters and storylines that you can uncover. That and they are just higher quality in a lot of ways.
I really love your content Razbuten. It's pertinent, on interesting subject and with often a lot of new perspectives to consider. You're one of my favorite video game essay channel if not my favorite. Something to consider for the "DLC are well made because the developper know their game better now", it's actually a common occurence accross a lot of media, not just video games. The public reception is part of what makes the game. The best game of the world would be incomplete if there was nobody to play with it. And often it is what bring new stuff to light for developpers and game designer as well : seeing how people interact and build around their stuff in unexpected ways.
love your perspective as always, Raz. one thing i find a little weird about the whole DLC thing is when you do have to complete the game first in order to play the, in a lot of cases, superior DLC stuff. the witcher 3 is a great example. the smaller scope and bigger focus on the things within that scope are why i really want to play that game's DLCs. but, i have tried to slog through the main game multiple times and gotten nowhere. it's a difficult one, because obviously DLCs aren't usually made for people like me who haven't played the base game.. but i guess i just wish some of them were!
On the point of Squeals being Glorified DLC, back before DLC was a thing. You had Expansions and Stand alone Expansions, Hell Doom 2 is a Stand Alone Expansion as a Squeal, as it ran on the Doom Engine. So the issue of Calling everything a DLC is that we've lost the Ideas of Expansions and how that work what it is and more.
outer wilds is my fav game EVER. the DLC was also incredible but it lost a lot of its impact for me cuz I had to google some important fundamental things that if I figured out myself it would have been crazy awesome. im sad I didnt get to experience that organically
Since there will recommendations in the comments here, I will add my own, which I believe is the only story based dlc I have ever fully completed The DLC for Dishonored 1, despite mixed reviews due to choice of protagonist, is honestly one of my favourite games of all time. The main reason is the revamped blink (teleport/dash ability) But also because it has levels that are "smaller" in scale, ie they aren't deciding the date of the country, they do in the end, but it doesn't feel like it. It helps with the roleplaying aspect, we get to play as an actual assassin that wants money and stuff, instead of saving the country or whatever. The climax(es?) is(are?) Pretty cool. Im not too good with words, so I'm hoping someone else will explain it better
One of the best, it really felt like it's own thing. Daud was such a good character to play as. He exemplifies the choice driven gameplay of dishonored, because he was a conflicted character, he felt like the end of his era was coming soon and was introspective about the events of the base game. To top it off they did the same with the second game's dlc (stand alone) they make the good choice of not giving definitive answers but giving new perspectives that change how you look a that world going forward.
The Citadel DLC for Mass Effect 3 is some of the best gaming I've had. Each of the storyline missions mixes up the gameplay in a different way, you get to have a bunch of small scenes with each of your (surviving) squadmembers, and it ends on a party with all of them. It's basically a celebration of the characters you've been with for so long, and I couldn't be happier.
This whole video and not one mention of Minecraft. I bought that over 10 years ago for like $15 and it's had so many updates and I've played it pretty consistently. Much more value for money than Shovel Knight ever was.
There are a few things to consider about the merits of a sequel vs. DLC: 1) If you have an extended period between games, say three or four years, people are usually going to expect at least a moderate graphical update. This means that basically everything in the game has to have an update and that’s a lot of time potentially spent on developing and integrating those assets. Admittedly, we’re starting to get to the point where these graphical generations are less noticeable (particularly given that much of consumer-grade hardware can’t take full advantage of the updates), but it’s still a factor. 2) Similarly, while the gameplay loop of a sequel is expected to be familiar to the previous game it also needs an update to have a different feel. For example, if you have an ability tree, you’d typically want to add more abilities or refresh the feel of the old ones. Basically, sequels have the expectation of a large update while DLC are expected to provide minor updates to existing systems. 3) There are games that can justify DLC but cannot justify a sequel. This typically involves games which have very definitive endings. It feels fine to tag along with a side-protagonist for a short DLC, but with a definitive end a sequel just ends up feeling unnecessary. That’s also true of games that have multiple endings where a sequel has to basically either declare one ending canonical or ignore the previous story and keep it vague. Personally I’m more in favor of an expansion pass/pack where you get all of the content devs will release for a game. As for sequels, I think one or two are fine, but a lot of franchises end up becoming stagnant. Personally I’ve mostly made a mental commitment to keep anything I develop/write to either a stand alone or a duology to avoid entering into stagnant territory.
For me, my favorite boss of all time is currently Gael, also you can buy the entire Dark Souls trilogy for $30 with all DLC included, making that the most valuable $30 you can spend in all of video games
This is really weird. I also started playing the Witcher's DLCs a couple of weeks ago after rebuying the game. I didn't really feel like playing them back then and I also agree that they are better than the base game, or at least I'm having more fun. I guess these coincides are statistically bound to happen, but what a well-timed cool video to watch. Thank you universe! and Razbuten!
@@jacobmonks3722 Torna is also an outstanding DLC, but I mentioned FR because, in my opinion, it did almost everything better than Torna - a lot of Torna felt like filler to me because of the community system, and the story didn't change my view of Xenoblade 2 the way FR's story changed the way I think about Xenoblade 3 and the series as a whole.
Did the heaets of stone frog for the first time on deathmarch ng+. It really tested me on my knowledge of base game mechanics. I honestly didnt expect it to be so tough, even considering i was on deathmarch, because it was so early in the dlc.
Final Fantasy VII Remake: Intermission DLC was my game of the year when it came out. It went above and beyond in many ways for me and it was a thrill getting to see how the dev team is progressing and evolving the game between Remake and it's sequel, Rebirth.
Lovely that you got audio responses from these devs too! I was wondering whether you'd mention EotE or not, guess I "underestimated" you with what you did instead! BTW you're a large part of why I bought OW in the first place, thanks for that!
I think the answer is gonna be: it depends
which, as it turns out, is the answer to most of the questions I ask on this channel lol
@@razbuten Which is good- most of these kinds of issues in gaming aren't black and white, and the truly insightful conversations are the ones we have about where lines in the sand can lie for different people and why.
If its cosmetics then its ur opinion but if its content then its great to get if you enjoy the game
@@rarecomment1941 That depends though, I remember back in destiny 1 for example some of the dlc was stuff that had been in the game at launch (not finished but like you could access areas with glitches) and iirc in some trailers that they locked behind The Taken King. If you get the full product and then more that's great, but cutting up what had already been intended is pretty bad.
pretty much
The Dishonored DLC with Daud was absolutely brilliant - giving so much cool backstory to a main enemy
Bro I’ve been looking for this comment! Dishonored DLC is exactly what I think of when it comes to what makes the perfect DLC, retain the foundation while adding new features and tweaks that motivate people to play instead of writing it off as merely more Dishonored.
I like how they flipped it that you are playing the game now under the lens of the assassin
Agreed! Knife of Dunwall and Brigmore Witches are both fantastic.
@@OsmanHasan98 If you know you know!
agreed. Played through all his missions awhile back and loved them.
I love it when i watch a video and within the first 5 minutes all the things i thought would be interesting have already been said.
And then I see there's another 10-20 minutes left that go so much deeper into the topic than I ever would have hoped from that video.
Yeah, hopefully you enjoy it all! Originally the video was just gonna focus on those ideas I touch on in the first half or so, but then after talking to the various devs, I realized that there is a lot that goes unsaid about how hard DLC is to actually make. People often get the perception that it is all an easy cash grab (which it occasionally is of course), but in a lot of cases, it is as massive labor of love that goes underappreciated.
I freakin love how you added some developer interviews into the video as well - always top notch content Razbuten!
I love how Outer Wilds used its DLC to present a counter-point to its central themes and then dismantled that counter-point to STRENGTHEN those central themes. It's the kind of thing that probably couldn't have been done without being made as a DLC. The meta-knowledge of it being a segmented, additional part of the story allows us to separate it in our minds and let it act as its own argument.
"Should it be fully standalone or integrated into the base game?"
Torna ~ The Golden Country: Yes
Torna and Future Redeemed are the perfect arguments in favor of all things “DLC”
Shorter, further refined companion pieces that build off their base games without needing to justify being their own separate, full-priced games like every AAA game seems to be and can instead be valued at lower to compensate. Ignoring the fact that they did in fact release Torna as a standalone in an absolute power-play of a move.
Heck, I think Torna is an example of cut content done truly right even though no one on the internet would dare say that cutting and reselling content is ever the right choice. But with them cutting it out from the base game they opened up all the side content, progression paths, and extra endgame activities to be present in Torna for players to engage with without having to play through every chapter of the base game that was supposed to come before its place in the story, and rather than railroading players out of the otherwise open-world base game’s present time in order to present what would have been a very lengthy flashback sequence.
Basically everything was done right for the situation they had in their hands (tight development thanks to BotW) and they made it work so much better than anyone could have imagined it would.
@@Boulder7685 Everything but gating progression behind community. It is thematically justified, but you still shouldn't force players to do most of the side quests.
But other than that, both expansions are, indeed, phenomenal
@@prfctstrm well yeah I’m not gonna deny that they have problems as games but I’m just saying here that they don’t have problems as DLC and are even, in fact, better off because they are DLC.
@@Boulder7685 yea big agree
@@prfctstrm future redeemed, is probaly my favorite dlc ever, what an "phenomenal"dlc.
Rain World's DLC, Downpour, from earlier this year is a really good example of this. The damn thing is basically five fully fledged sequels to Rain World all in one as a DLC for the original game. It expands the world, lore, mechanics and overall content of the game so much that the original campaign from the base game now feels like a tutorial or a tech demo. Really insane stuff.
And it was all originally modded slugcats wouldn't you believe.
Downpour and echoes of the eye are the peak of DLC and i can't be convinced otherwise
Y’a the new lore is insane lmao
This questiom reminds me of Torna and Future Redeemed, DLC for Xenoblade 2 and 3 respectively. Both are such great games on their own that improve and change so much from their base games that they basically are whole games. Like you said, they build off the base game and instead use the time to perfect everything, to where it all just seems better. They are of course, shorter, but still very worthwile experiences that I wouldve been happy spending another $60 for, but instead only paid $20-$40.
In all honesty, both Xenoblade 2 and 3 have some of the best dlcs of all time.
They adress complaints about the main game while improving the already great aspects, they have huge worlds that feel pretty much standalone, and are priced in a way that they feel like a steal.
I loved both dlcs and I recommend both to anyone who has had a hard time getting into the Xenoblade series, torna for Xenoblade 2 and future redeemed for Xenoblade 3 are fully lengthed too so you will be getting the bang for you buck
I started Xenoblade 3 dlc just before totk came out and now I'm playing TOTK. Excited to play it after. Heard a lot of good things.
Xenoblade 2's DLC is decently meaty. Very excellent value for money. Mechanically, it's barely attached to the original at all. Bit dragged out, though.
Narratively... narratively, much better written than the main game, but part of that seemed to be the original trying to write around the DLC. But well, I have huge gripes with how Xenoblade 2 handles it's plot and characters. (And XB3, to a lesser extent.)
I cried so hard when I finished ttgc
While I love Torna and Future Redeemed, I couldn't care less for the additional stuff in the base game after I already put over 100h into it.
Torna is an experience one can't simply forget, I don't think Future Redeemed reached the same height but it was a good experience nonetheless.
It's always a good day when Razbuten uploads 😌
I was going to like your comment, but it's at 69, right now, and there are rules.
I second that
thanks for reminding me i bought the isle of armor DLC for pokemon shield and didn’t even touch it
feelsbadman
Glad to see Crosscode getting a bit of spotlight, it’s an awesome game!
The sad part is that months ago when he first mentioned it, he criticized it. I forgot why.
@@poetryflynn3712 any idea what the video is?
@@poetryflynn3712 I only played CrossCode because he recommended it in his video “Indie Games You Missed (maybe? idk your life)” from July 2021, so if he ever criticized it, he came around to it a long time ago.
I started that game on game pass and it felt like I was playing an h game made in rpg maker that didn't have much to offer, so I stopped. But with how much praise it's getting, I think I should probably try it again
@@lawnmower16 The game is brilliant.
This video made me realize that BOTH my favourite bosses - strictly mechanically, not story-wise - from Hollow Knight, Nightmare King Grimm and Pure Vessel, came from DLC content. And both fights have what I would describe as really solid, steady rhythm. I guess Team Cherry really mastered the flow of their bosses after the completing the base game.
In DLC, its typical to put bosses that really challenge the player, since he has already mastered the main mechanics of the game.
Every FromSoftware game has the best bosses in DLC too
What about Mantis Lords?
@@myweirdsecondchannelwithap9070 I love the Mantis Lords, but I think the one flaw is that they don't have a shared hp pool. Finishing them off one by one makes the end of the fight kinda anticlimactic imo
@@elliel.5915 the fight would be far worse if they just all stopped fighting you at once
Rain World's DLC that came out earlier this year was awesome; easily five or six times larger than the base game and full of fantastic content. What makes it quite unique is that the base game released in 2017, and this DLC came out in 2023, but it's really propelled the game's popularity recently.
TOTK feels like a DLC in the best way possible. It feels like they weren't wasting ressources on re-inventing the wheel. More than that it felt like 'coming home' and 'being able to play my favorite game of all times for the first time again' and that is a feeling i have never had with any game ever.
It blows my mind just how different it feels from BotW. So many areas are different from the terrain changes and fallen ruins. I was worried that reusing the same world would lead to having similar set pieces but it's practically a whole new world to explore. And that's not even touching about how much of the game changes just because you have different powers than the previous one. It's really quite amazing!
Ragnarok seems to be the same type of sequel as TOTK. Reusing assets isn’t a bad thing at all, i’d rather the devs work on gameplay and story instead of creating totally new assets.
An expansion
Which is why the Like a Dragon (Yakuza) series felt special. You get to see the same map from the original game evolve over time and get the chance to explore other aspects of it like never before. Sure they also add new location to spice things up, but exploring Kamurocho in all of the games feels like a natural progression, as it changes with you.
@@Deliveredmean42 yeah Sega nailed it with Yakuza maps.
The Old Hunters🏃
(Can't imagine playing BB without it)
Nowadays most things are just revered to as a DLC, but I like the older days when you just got a big expansion (Add-On) a Year later. Most games did this on PC and even some console Games got big expansions. With the DLCs there are more smaller things that get added and that's more frequent. This harms gaming more because the line is to bleary that is worth it and what is not.
We should go back to this older naming scheme:
- Expansion / Add-On: A big new thing, that is expanding the hole game
- DLC: A new Quest Line or a new Weapon
- Microtransaction: A skin or something else like it
- Lootbox: If a game has this, it belongs in to the Trash!
I kinda agree with that. If it's a big thing that's integrated in the main game, it's an expansion. If it's something more to the side of it, it's an add-on. DLC I see as something in between those and microtransactions, but it can sometimes be hard if you want exact categories. Still, I'd say microtransactions are single things, like items or skins. Sometimes characters.
Lootboxes can be fine if the game's free to play. Actually free, not any of the various pretend-free games. A good example of that Fallout Shelter. Perfectly playable without buying anything, but you can if you want to.
Its amazing you got the opprtunity to talk with the Outer wilds producers, never seen somene be able to talk to them and I was always interested in hearing them talk about their thoughts
Have you not seen NoClip's videos with them?
Battlefield Bad Company 2 Vietnam is one of the best DLC's I've ever played. Vietnam felt like it could have been a standalone game with how much was changed/added from the base game, while still keeping the core fun intact.
Damn I played the absolute fuck outta that game (mostly multiplayer) but never knew it had dlc
I like to wait for complete editions when possible.
The two Monster Hunter DLCs - Sunbreak and Iceborne - are some of the best ever. Both have:
- Campaigns comparable in length to the base games.
- All monsters are made more aggressive and have 1-2 new moves.
- Around 30 monsters are added.
- Brand new mechanics that radically change the dynamics of combat.
- 2 new areas.
- An spectacular final boss.
- A strong endgame system that adds so much longevity to the game.
- All gear is redesigned.
- Only cost $40 each.
Crosscode's a New Hope is a very good example of the knowing your audience for DLC as while there were some who criticised the base game for it's dungeon length I was firmly in the camp that loved how extensive they were and really got so much out of puzzle mechanics and enemies and was ecstatic to find out that a New Hope leaned into it
For me, Horizon Zero Dawn, The Frozen Wilds was a great DLC, absolutely loved the extra little story that came with it as well as the fantastic map design in a completely new environment (ice and snow), plus the inclusion of many new mini ways to play the game e.g. new quests (like you talked about in the video about creating fun challenges once the playerbase knows the basics of the game). Another thing that was massively improved was the conversation side of the game, characters weren't static anymore and had a lot more life while speaking to each other, with funny and awkward interactions with better scripts and voice acting to back this up, which just added to the immersion and fascination for me. That's all, rant over. Great video as always!
As one of the haters of Horizon Zero Dawn. I do find the Frozen Wilds to be one of the best parts of the game.
Crosscode is such an amazing game with an amazing expansion. I wish more people talk about it.
My gold standard for a dlc is road to gehenna for the talos principle, giving you more of what made the game in a significantly distinct and coherent experience.
Your point on the studios decision to make a dlc a stand alone game made me think about far cry blood dragon and i would be more than open to more studios taking that third route of a stand alone « side game » instead of the classic dlc or sequel conundrum.
Thank you for yet another great job on a thought provoking video. Cheers
I tend to draw a line between DLC and expansions. Blood and Wine and Hearts of Stone are expansions. DLC is horse armour/a few small additions like some quests or weapons, etc.
No.
Expansions are huge additions to the core game.
DLC is cool new content of not nearly the same scope, but content nonetheless that improves the game.
What you described are Microtransactions, tiny little pieces of content that are typically only cosmetic items for the player's avatar in some way.
@@Klokinator Based on what you say, if I had to put it in terms of Skyrim; Expansion would be the Dragonborn DLC (new Island), Hearthfire would be DLC and Horse Armor is microtransactions, would that be right? I'm not sure where Dawnguard would be on that scale, maybe more than just a simple DLC but not as big as an expansion?
@@Klokinator DLC isn't always paid. Take Witcher 3 again for example. It has a couple of DLC additions for free that basically just added new weapons and armour. Or the recent update which added the same again, along with a quest line.
DLC can certainly be nothing more than a microtransaction, but I see it as a middle ground between that and an expansion. It adds some meaningful content so it isn't a microtransaction, but that content won't last you long in terms of finding everything.
@@nialloreilly702 If something is microtransaction sized but you're not paying for it? That's just an update. Updates can be for any class of added content, but they're always free.
I agree with Niall, and would like to add that all this discussion of what it is, or which is it, is exactly the plan of the higher ups in these corporations want. To get stuck in the discussion if the content is worth being called an expansion or dlc, while trying to divide the game even more so they can sell pieces to us with new buzzwords.
I've been interested in this industry long enough to see them create new words and terms, just to sell less stuff to you without you noticing.
I think the "window of relevancy" bit actually isnt that important. you dont necessarily want a dlc to come out just a couple months after the base game because the playerbase has largely been satiated by the base game. of course if you wait a few years people would rather expect a sequel, but releasing an expansion a year after release, give or take, gives time for the playerbase to move on and think about the game, so when an expansion is released they're past the digestion of the base game and are hungry for more
You make a good point. One issue with DLC that comes too late is that players forget how to play the game. Like with Dragon Age Inquisition, the Descent DLC came out about a year later and not only was the content just generally harder than the base game, I had forgotten a lot about how to actually play my characters lol.
So what you're saying is....the window of relevancy is kinda important 😅
I'd also rather have a big DLC like a year later. Depending on what type of game it is, it could prompt a completely new playthrough.
E.G. I'd rather have a big revamp DLC for Marvel Midnight Suns than a new character DLC every months because I simply have finished the game and am not going to jump in half a year later, because "Storm" is now a playable character.
For multiplayer games, sooner and more frequent DLC and free content upgrades are much more important. For singeplayer games take whatever time you need to make it great. (Looking at you, phantom liberty)
a year is a bit much but i agree with the general point, 4-6 months i think is the sweetspot. you still have had time to digest the game but its still on your mind. if dlc for a single player game i didnt feel like it was 10/10 comes a year later i likely wont really care.
@Jimbody right lol says it isn't important then goes in to say when it's important
It really depends for sure. I’m just thinking about how we weren’t sure how the outer wilds dlc was going to add anything meaningful, and then I was crying at the credits again
If BotW’s DLC had come prepackaged as part of the game, can you imagine? You beat the 4 divine beasts and a secret 5th zone emerges? How amazing that would have been. Instead you pay for it and know exactly the product you’re receiving, but the experience suffers
Totk basically has this in the clouds area
I have no clue how you didn't love TW3 but the DLCs in the game are so good.
In my experience, while I still liked the game, it was a bit of a slog at some points
@@wobblywack5531 I agree
I felt the same as Raz. I enjoyed the sidequests, but i did not care at all for the main quest, but the DLCs are amazing.
my dumbass brain thought you were talking about total war warhammer before realising you meant the witcher (even tough he was talking about the witcher whilst I was reading it)
The combat is so ass
I'm a witcher, a supposed lagendarily good swordsman, why do i only have like three attacks? It plagued the whole game for me, had to stop after 35 ish hours. Also Geralt controls way too ''floaty'' (i dont know how else to describe it)/
Outer Wilds was such an affecting game for me that though I own the DLC I'm afraid to replay it. I'm afraid that it will negatively affect what was personally an important moment in my life.
I’m not sure if you’ve yet to play the DLC, but I can really relate with your comment. The main game was such a profound experience for me that I was hesitant to jump back in. I don’t want to overhype it, but I found the DLC somehow more impactful than the main game. The people I know who have also played them also said that the DLC is up to par and possibly even better then the main game. I highly recommend it because, even if you somehow don’t like it that much, it never interferes with the main game and your initial experience, it only serves as the perfect compliment to it.
Outer Wilds is a special game indeed.
It and the DLC does something I don't think I've experienced in any other game I've played; you get the first time playthrough experience twice.
DLC is garbage and excluding beginning of it is nothing like base game, hard pass
@@Bodwaizer how tho
Sure it definitely has a different tone but it's just as engaging
Elaborate on why you don't like it, please, because "it's nothing like the base game" is straight up false
@@Piokoxer it turns exploration-puzzle game into shitty horror-walking sim with tons of "backtracking" for no reason at all. You can call base game walking sim too, but at least we have out ship
Rainworld Downpour is one of the games where the answer to the question is yes, the dlc has 5 extra campaigns, more things in the sandbox mode, challenges, expedition mode and maybe a couple of things that i may be missing but it essentially doubles or maybe even triples the content already in the game along with more mechanics, lore, etc. that is without mentioning the workshop that is practically free and gives infinite more content but its not official.
The thing about the placement of the dlc is really important. I loved bugsnax and was excited for it's dlc but it just felt wrong to keep feeding the islanders buxsnax after experiencing the main game's ending. I actually didn't finish the dlc because of that. And the game also makes you play as if you don't know what will happen eventually .
Mr. Razbuten! I always enjoy your videos, which is a little weird because you focus a lot on "big open world" games (or at least BIG games), the type that I really not get pulled into easily, it has to do with something about "taking it all in". See, I'm over 40 and one of the things I have always loved about games is I can see all the game has to offer, since the NES era for me, "seeing all the game" has been somewhat important, and with big games, I feel like I just can't appreciate all the work put into them.
I got a 2nd hand PS4 from by brother with some games in it, fantastic games, but for example, I played The Last of Us 1 and 2 (wonderful by the way), but I got left with the feeling that I didn't see all that there is on them, some guy probably spent a whole week modeling or texturing a single house that you blaze trough and didn't get the chance to appreciate the work done, or the details inside some random garage, or the forests, buildings, etc.
At this point you have about 600 comments on this video, doubt you'll catch this, but I always thought of this as an interesting topic.
I think it must be similar to writing a sequel. When I wrote my fiction novel, I spent a lot of time thinking about the basics like how characters look, how they behave, and what they sound like when they speak in dialogue. I spent a ton of time thinking about the world and what it looked like and the rules of the universe I was building. When I wrote the second book, the sequel, all of that basic stuff is established. I could focus more on the fun stuff like the plot and where I wanted my story to take the reader. Sure, I needed new characters here and there, but the bulk of the work was done. The world had been built. Because it was easier for me, I think the sequel was a better story. The third book, though, I have been procrastinating starting it because I know my characters end up in a new olace never seen before and I'm kind of reluctant to get back into world building mode.
Also, I have the valuable experience to draw on when writing the second one. I have had an entire book's worth of practice.
What book is it? I won't check it out.
but honestly if I see it in a library I will say "Oh hey some guy on youtube wrote that" and then maybe I will get it.
@@eyesack6845 They aren't published. I'm one of those insufferable people who talks about writing all the time but never publishes anything. Maybe one day.
It's a mental health thing I need to overcome before I can do anything with it. And I don't actually talk about it all the time.
Literally just got to the Witcher 3 DLCs last month as well. Such amazing pieces of content man. Also shoutout to Regis, the best fictional character to exist.
Seeing some CrossCode was very nice.
Also, when one of the game's devs talks about creating a long dungeon, I can assure you they mean *long*.
To beat the NPC you race most dungeons with, you must complete the dungeon in less than two hours. This is an enormous dungeon with 5 floors for 58 rooms, some of which absolutely gigantic, that makes you switch from advanced puzzle to tight combat, both making use of literally everything in the game, in the blink of an eye, the timer will be very tough to beat.
The first ever big DLC I ever played was Skyrim’s amazing “Dawnguard” expansion. It has now been overtaken as “best DLC ever” by Blood and Wine, but it will always hold a special place in my heart.
Go play it if you haven’t
I know uncharted Lost Legacy is not a true DLC but I think that kind of expansion could be made more often. It was visibly a uncharted game but something felt different and I think DLC should be like that not changing too much from the base game but providing something new and intriguing which completely sold me.
I think Jedi: Survivor (though I am yet to play it), and Insomniac's Spider-Man 2 (though that is also yet to have any gameplay reveal), will also be good examples of games that build off of their predecessors, like you said with GoW2 and Tears of the Kingdom. I think it's something that is growing in the industry.
God of war ragnarok *
@@alex360c Aye. (I'm not really into GoW so I wouldn't know.)
Yay! More limelight for Crosscode 🥳. Great video, as always!
Another benefit to DLC development is it provides a good testing ground for new talent. With lower cost investment and smaller risk than a full game, DLC gives the team the flexibility to try putting people in different positions. For larger companies, this can be the springboard for a new development division or a good opportunity to test new team leads before handing the torch down. An easy example is the COD Zombies Devs who gave some of the DLC map slots to Jason Blundell to helm the development of as he would be taking over as game director for the franchise from that point on.
My man Raz, I wanted to recommend you a brazillian indie game called "The legend of hero" which is a 16 bit plataform game where a song is playing on each level and it sings about what you are doing at the moment. If know your taste for games from the other videos, I bet you are going to love it
Ps: if for some reason it does not show on steam, look for the original name "A lenda do herói"
I neeeeed a TOTK essay, and even perhaps "what TOTK did differently" type essay video because personally? TOTK was such a glow up/step up from BOTW
It's always a good day when I can hear a 20+ minute rant about videogames in between studying for my engineering finals
Haha, I'm reading this while taking a break in my calculus studying session
And I'm reading while putting together final grades for 2 classes. I'm going to have to watch again, though, because I want to be able to pay even more attention.
Differencial equations (or whatever it's supposed to be in english) exam tomorow but my brain is done for today. Time to wake up at 4am to study.
@@bencegergohocz5988 You're probably better off getting the sleep, tbh. Unless you were chronically sleep deprived while learning Differential Equations in the first place, then it's iffy.
I wouldn't really call this a rant, it's more of a "praise" video for DLC.
The second I saw this pop up I knew instantly that echoes of the eye would be here.
The answer is yes just by that one dlc alone
Great video, very well edited, good points, it was a pleasure.
Love how you asked developers about the process of making dlc as a uni student for game development it’s cool to see more information about the process of developing games and dlc and peoples thoughts on them
Interesting points. I think I've had a similar experience with DLC's, for instance the ones from Fallout games which were pretty surprising. I think it's also because devs have less pressure once the game has been released. The crunch period is over, some ideas were left behind and they can now be used for some additional content. People expect a slightly different experience so they have the freedom to offer something unexpected. 😌
Great video! If I could make one suggestion, I would love to see a label for each game you show. Sometimes in your videos you'll show a clip from a game that looks interesting, but I have no context clues to even figure out what the game is. Would love to have a little overlay saying the game's title (which I do realize is extra work on your part). Thanks for all the great content!
You know what game deserved good DLC? Zelda II.
(Actually, I'm not even kidding. If DLC existed when Zelda II was released, that could have given Nintendo a chance to take advantage of its unique gameplay with more polished level design. Zelda II would be a great, one-of-a-kind game if the level design was better.)
New Vegas DLC is incredible too, they all connect together ( except for one, but that had Joshua Graham ) to build a cohesive story for the main character. I think it's brilliant, tons of interesting situations and gameplay scenarios, fantastic story and characters. Somehow it gave a character with zero backstory other than being a courier more history than either fallout 3 or 4 main characters.
I love Shovel Knight and the expansions were really good. I would say that should be the gold standard for DLC, but that was a massive risk for Yacht Club that took 6 years to complete. That’s not reasonable to ask of most games.
Alex Beachum quotes on a Raz video!!! Hell yeah.
This was some fascinating insight from the developer side I'd never fully considered. Hats off for another brilliant video.
People didn't like Bioshock infinite but i did especially after the DLC, Burial At Sea. I liked the Base game as it is but with the DLC the story added just the right amount of information so it is complete with a unique emotional tone that i haven't seen in other games.
*Spoiler Free*
That exact emotional pay off, even if it's so so painful with barely a shed of light, it is the result of that Base - DLC relationship that Kevin Levin built. It allowed you to gather all the bits and make your conclusion. To me, that DLC was the first one where the characters popped out of the screen, Elizabeth by the end of it felt like she was real, the emotional complexity i have built up in my head of her is thanks to the care and detail they've given the game and the supernatural elements that make certain emotional positions possible. That DLC was one of those that made you think about the game afterwards.
*Spoiler*
The entire game, base and DLC is a tragic, morbid twisted tale of sacrifices and hope, the base story ending on morbid hope. The DLC ends on a tragic sacrifice; Elizabeth always found solace being able to see her alternative realities, dreams of a better life. This Hope lived as long she was lost among the sea of dreams of her other self's reality but once you cut her from it she'll have to face reality alone, her own reality, a sacrifice with no hope..
Base game and burial at sea Elizabeth is the same character, not two alternatives. The journey we were on was with the Elizabeth with dreams of Paris, a innocent character in the base game, a guilt heavy lost soul in the DLC. Those dreams were hers and hers only. It dies with her at the bottom of a foreign dark ocean. Base game, Solid but the DLC elevated it to a masterpiece in my book.
I remember being so in love with my experience playing Point Lookout in comparison to the main Fallout 3. Something about the smaller world and more interconnection between the quests was really magical.
I also think that by the time you play a DLC you tend to focus on the story and blow past tedious core mechanics. A lot of DLCs also ditch the collectibles and complecated skill trees and reduce the item pickups and thus time spent in inventory.
Some of the best DLC's I've seen is for The Witcher 3 and Dying Light's The Following. Also Echoes of the Eye for Outer Wilds is awesome too!
dark souls 1 and 3 are some of my favourite expansions of all time. worth trying
Dark Souls 3 was my first soulsborne game and I loved it. Unfortunately, I skipped the DLC because I read reviews that put me off. Maybe I should have tried them. Thank you!
@@11122Xas with all souls games the expansions are for later, unless you’re an ultra tryhard minmax legend that can kill X boss solo with a spoon
The Artorias fight in DS1 and the Midir fight in 3 are my favorites from the series. Definitely recommend at least trying them
i also love DLC that completely lets the devs experiment for example, Blood Dragon or Red Dead’s Undead Nightmare. especially back than it was like $15 which was well worth the price.
Yo Crosscode!!! I love the team behind this game and they put in so much polish and detail with the puzzles and combat that it's actually quite intimidating at first. I hope their next project is super successful!
Damn this was a great video. Really opened my eyes to how DLC is made and why it usually stands out so much.
Honestly haven't watched the video yet but I'm making a comment as early as I can so some people might see it: Dishonored 1 DLC is absolutely goated. Several levels better than those from the base game. Even the arcade mode DLC is crazy fun.
My favourite thing i have played this year and the closest thing i currently have to a GOTY is the Xenoblade 3 DLC "Future Redeemed". It gave me everything i wanted that the base game did not.
If it’s Monolithsoft, then it is probably another entire video game for half of the price. In that case yes, absolutely. In most others? Almost certainly not.
Yeah and even the minor things from the xenoblade 2 and 3 dlc were pretty good, especially the challenge gauntlet mode in 3! Making that whole new mode was really cool.
I have played a couple of really strong dlc expansions recently: Dragon Age Inquisition's Trespasser (which is so important to the story that I don't think it should be a dlc, but that's a different conversation), Horizon Zero Dawn's Frozen Wilds, and Horizon Forbidden West's Burning Shores. I think both of the Horizon dlcs are great examples of what you're talking about. They're tighter and stronger than the base games. They expand on the mechanics of the base games in compelling and interesting ways, but are familiar enough that there is no tutorial or learning curve. The studio already had the development infrastructures in place when making these dlcs and it really shows.
Anyway, thanks for the thought-provoking video.
Terraria is the greatest deal I ever had on a game, I bought it around 2011 and ever since then there's always new content. I love their approach so much that I've bought at least 6 extra copies that I've gifted to friends and family
Yeah I've bought terraria on 5 different platforms now I think, there's just so much to do in that game. Not as good a deal for me as one of those platforms doesn't get updated now (Nintendo 3DS) but I wasn't expecting it to get updates so that's not really a problem.
THANK YOU for mentioning the Minerva's Den DLC from Bioshock 2, one of most under-discussed hidden gems out there imho
I really want to start making little indy games and I love how Yacht Club handled shovel knight. Include all future content for the early buyers and raise the price a little bit when expansion content is made. I hate how AAA publishers bank on DLC. It feels predatory that they plan on adding content and not including it.
I feel like I ripped them off. I think I paid about a fiver for the base game when it was in a bundle, and got all that extra stuff just thrown in as a bonus. It's an enormously generous game
@@triphazard2906 If you feel like you rippe them off, you can always just buy their next game regardless of whether or not you think you'll like it. You'll put money in their pocket to get rid of that feeling AND you might end up with a game you enjoy?
@@PsychTricks I think it's a safe bet their next game will be a corker and I'll like it, but I get your point
I feel like what can make DLC feel better than base is when they contain more content of what can be called the “training wheels off” moments of a game that are usually saved for the last few levels of a game in it’s base or for NG+ like with the DMC series
The reason you didn't like the base game as much as the DLCs for TW3 is probably because the base game is a conclusion to the continuation of the book story, which, if you haven't read, can leave you confused and wanting while playing. Meanwhile, the DLCs are much more standalone products, with plenty of new characters and storylines that you can uncover. That and they are just higher quality in a lot of ways.
I really love your content Razbuten. It's pertinent, on interesting subject and with often a lot of new perspectives to consider. You're one of my favorite video game essay channel if not my favorite.
Something to consider for the "DLC are well made because the developper know their game better now", it's actually a common occurence accross a lot of media, not just video games. The public reception is part of what makes the game. The best game of the world would be incomplete if there was nobody to play with it. And often it is what bring new stuff to light for developpers and game designer as well : seeing how people interact and build around their stuff in unexpected ways.
Its why oftentimes Season 2 of shows can be where it gets good.
Xenoblade 2 and 3 DLC I like them better because the smaller compact size
love your perspective as always, Raz. one thing i find a little weird about the whole DLC thing is when you do have to complete the game first in order to play the, in a lot of cases, superior DLC stuff. the witcher 3 is a great example. the smaller scope and bigger focus on the things within that scope are why i really want to play that game's DLCs. but, i have tried to slog through the main game multiple times and gotten nowhere. it's a difficult one, because obviously DLCs aren't usually made for people like me who haven't played the base game.. but i guess i just wish some of them were!
On the point of Squeals being Glorified DLC, back before DLC was a thing. You had Expansions and Stand alone Expansions, Hell Doom 2 is a Stand Alone Expansion as a Squeal, as it ran on the Doom Engine. So the issue of Calling everything a DLC is that we've lost the Ideas of Expansions and how that work what it is and more.
_Squeals ?_
Outer Wilds was the last game I would've expected to have DLC, and wouldn't you know it, they came out swinging again and delivered the best DLC ever.
outer wilds is my fav game EVER.
the DLC was also incredible but it lost a lot of its impact for me cuz I had to google some important fundamental things that if I figured out myself it would have been crazy awesome. im sad I didnt get to experience that organically
i've noticed a lot of indie devs call DLCs that add new story stuff "expansions" or "expansions packs" (like in the olden days).
2:15 with the recent news about overwatch i couldn't help but laugh my ass off
I originally was just gonna do some good old Cyberpunk 2077 footage, but this was too good to pass up.
Glad to see Crosscode getting some exposure. Absolutely amazing game.
Depends on the DLC just like it depends on the game.
I will forever be disappointed that we never got a backstory campaign for Polar knight despite it being heavily alluded to…
Since there will recommendations in the comments here, I will add my own, which I believe is the only story based dlc I have ever fully completed
The DLC for Dishonored 1, despite mixed reviews due to choice of protagonist, is honestly one of my favourite games of all time.
The main reason is the revamped blink (teleport/dash ability)
But also because it has levels that are "smaller" in scale, ie they aren't deciding the date of the country, they do in the end, but it doesn't feel like it.
It helps with the roleplaying aspect, we get to play as an actual assassin that wants money and stuff, instead of saving the country or whatever.
The climax(es?) is(are?) Pretty cool.
Im not too good with words, so I'm hoping someone else will explain it better
One of the best, it really felt like it's own thing. Daud was such a good character to play as. He exemplifies the choice driven gameplay of dishonored, because he was a conflicted character, he felt like the end of his era was coming soon and was introspective about the events of the base game. To top it off they did the same with the second game's dlc (stand alone) they make the good choice of not giving definitive answers but giving new perspectives that change how you look a that world going forward.
The Citadel DLC for Mass Effect 3 is some of the best gaming I've had. Each of the storyline missions mixes up the gameplay in a different way, you get to have a bunch of small scenes with each of your (surviving) squadmembers, and it ends on a party with all of them. It's basically a celebration of the characters you've been with for so long, and I couldn't be happier.
You got balls of steel to make a tier list, considering how toxic people can be about defending their favorites
You're goddamn right... about that
What a nice thing to see right when I get off work
This whole video and not one mention of Minecraft. I bought that over 10 years ago for like $15 and it's had so many updates and I've played it pretty consistently. Much more value for money than Shovel Knight ever was.
I closed my eyes every time Outer Wilds was on the screen
Most of the time no, and definitely not at the price most companies charge these days.
There are a few things to consider about the merits of a sequel vs. DLC:
1) If you have an extended period between games, say three or four years, people are usually going to expect at least a moderate graphical update. This means that basically everything in the game has to have an update and that’s a lot of time potentially spent on developing and integrating those assets. Admittedly, we’re starting to get to the point where these graphical generations are less noticeable (particularly given that much of consumer-grade hardware can’t take full advantage of the updates), but it’s still a factor.
2) Similarly, while the gameplay loop of a sequel is expected to be familiar to the previous game it also needs an update to have a different feel. For example, if you have an ability tree, you’d typically want to add more abilities or refresh the feel of the old ones. Basically, sequels have the expectation of a large update while DLC are expected to provide minor updates to existing systems.
3) There are games that can justify DLC but cannot justify a sequel. This typically involves games which have very definitive endings. It feels fine to tag along with a side-protagonist for a short DLC, but with a definitive end a sequel just ends up feeling unnecessary. That’s also true of games that have multiple endings where a sequel has to basically either declare one ending canonical or ignore the previous story and keep it vague.
Personally I’m more in favor of an expansion pass/pack where you get all of the content devs will release for a game. As for sequels, I think one or two are fine, but a lot of franchises end up becoming stagnant. Personally I’ve mostly made a mental commitment to keep anything I develop/write to either a stand alone or a duology to avoid entering into stagnant territory.
For me, my favorite boss of all time is currently Gael, also you can buy the entire Dark Souls trilogy for $30 with all DLC included, making that the most valuable $30 you can spend in all of video games
same still the best fromsoft boss ever
@@mydrillasanjay5397 maybe Shadow of the Erdtree or AC6 will make a boss better that him, who knows
Old Hunters from Bloodborne is crazy good
Never thought about how the plural of DLC is really just also DLC and not DLCs. Takes some getting used to though
This is really weird. I also started playing the Witcher's DLCs a couple of weeks ago after rebuying the game. I didn't really feel like playing them back then and I also agree that they are better than the base game, or at least I'm having more fun. I guess these coincides are statistically bound to happen, but what a well-timed cool video to watch. Thank you universe! and Razbuten!
Any Xenoblade fan will say yes.
Future Redeemed is amazing, it's probably the most fun I had in a Xenoblade game, and the ending blew my mind.
Yes
@HadasB1 Torna is also fantastic. It improved on basically every mechanic from the base game, and I can't think of many exceptions.
@@jacobmonks3722 Torna is also an outstanding DLC, but I mentioned FR because, in my opinion, it did almost everything better than Torna - a lot of Torna felt like filler to me because of the community system, and the story didn't change my view of Xenoblade 2 the way FR's story changed the way I think about Xenoblade 3 and the series as a whole.
@@HadasB1 Future Redeemed is actually the true sequel to Torna.
There I said it.
Don’t look any deeper.
Did the heaets of stone frog for the first time on deathmarch ng+. It really tested me on my knowledge of base game mechanics. I honestly didnt expect it to be so tough, even considering i was on deathmarch, because it was so early in the dlc.
Definitely worth more than 20 minute rant
well this rant is free so
@@razbutennot even, I was technically working during this 20 min, so I made money
@@razbuten free whining, belongs in a garbage frfr
Love your videos. :) You recommded us outer wilds and a short hike, two games I really adore. Thanks
Shadow of raam for gears of war 3 is incredible. It always stuck with me
Final Fantasy VII Remake: Intermission DLC was my game of the year when it came out. It went above and beyond in many ways for me and it was a thrill getting to see how the dev team is progressing and evolving the game between Remake and it's sequel, Rebirth.
Lovely that you got audio responses from these devs too! I was wondering whether you'd mention EotE or not, guess I "underestimated" you with what you did instead!
BTW you're a large part of why I bought OW in the first place, thanks for that!
17:04 WHAT I NEVER THOUGHT OF DOING THAT WITH THE SIGNS. I thought it was a gag the devs were doing