I was thinking that. Do what we say or we'll tell every one your Iron warrior successor. What do think is going to happen when we tell every space marines chapter that we tried to see if we could redeem a traitor geneseed , but it turns out once a traitor always a traitor.
Do the Minotaurs really seem like they would be susceptible to blackmail though? I think they like taking orders from the High Lords, especially when it means they get to beat down other Space Marines and take their gear.
The Minotaurs being traitor stock makes perfect sense. They can never rebel or disobey orders. As soon as they stepped out of line, the High Lords can 'discover' their heritage and have them destroyed.
Its said they are iron warriors so 1 iron warrior gene seed os the most stable and least likely to mutate 2 iron warriors are dutyful tenacous and tacticful Their good reason to use their gene seed
So the first comment said a lot that is true but I'd like to add that apparently the Iron Warriors are amongst the most physically powerful and durable Astartes and can manifest as thunder warrior tier
@@tdlainc.4737 I have never seen or heard anything to suggest anything like that.. Are you sure you're not confusing it with their (rumoured) psycho-indoctrination making them mentally unstable?
I always liked the idea that a bunch of Loyalist Iron Warriors were offered redemption and a cover story in return for unquestioning loyalty to the High Lords. They were made to assume the identity of an extinct Chapter and given the best tech by the AdMech who they already had a close relationship with. They were loyal in the first place as they didn't want to follow Perturabo anymore. I'm sure the Decimation never sat well with a good deal of those who survived it. Makes total sense
There is a known unit sized force of Iron Warriors (namely the 114th grand battalion) that roughly fits this picture. The 114th was a traitor force of about 6000 marines that was tossed into a heavy siege that saw 2/3 of their number dead and their leadership reduced to a disgraced and half-crippled marine. And then they were tossed at a forge world by the Alpha Legion and told that they couldn’t retreat (the alpha legion would blow them up from orbit if they tried). The 114th then turned (again), drove off the Alpha Legion, purged their own ranks, and went back to hunting traitors. No mention of the 114th exist past the Horus Heresy era.
@@joelkurowski7129 Some additional notes I forgot to mention: The 114th was not the only loyalist force active on the Forge World (named Mezoa if you want to do some reading) in question. A mismash of Salamanders, Raven Guard, Iron Hands, and even some Imperial Fists were on the planet (though as far as astartes went the loyalists were outnumbered something like 9 to 1). Since the Alpha Legion force was routed, it remains plausible that much of their gene seed was left behind, which could also explain why Minotaurs gene seed is considered “chimeric” in nature.
@Spooky Ghost Writer I'd forgotten that fact about their gene seed. It's well-established that you can mix and match from different primarchs, so maybe they're a little bit of both
Gotta say the lack of info about these marines makes them fascinating to make theories about, but it's time to give them more lore. After all it's not every day that you see a space marine confidently wanting to take on a custodes... Any space marine knows that would be suicide in a 1v1 scenario. Moloc wasn't backed into a corner with no option but to fight Valerian, he was just willing to do it and that to me means he was sure about his chances, can't get anymore badass than that tbh!
Welp, his datasheet back then was truly a murderous one. Boy was killing any chapter master on the table, none of regular marines stand chance against him.
not only was moloc's swagger confident, it was valerian's confidence that was in question. It's the one single event that has made me a fan of the minotaurs. Personally, more of a fan of moloc.
The Space Sharks are the counter balance to the Minotaurs. The High Lords attempt a coup, the Sharks murder everything, and someone shoves a jetbike up Abaddon's chute.
If i had a nickel for every space marine faction that looked really cool to me but had their coolness ruined by being attack dogs of a corrupt imperium faction, I’d have two nickels but it’s upsetting that it happened twice
If I had a nickel for every space marine faction that looked really cool to me but had their coolness ruined by being corrupt attack dogs of a corrupt imperium faction, I’d have a nickel for every space marine chapter.
My personal theory has often been, primarily due to their size, that the Minotaurs are Alpha Legion in origin(i.e. potentially loyal, but also potentially not so), yes they can fight and adopt which ever style they wish, but the travelling at chapter strenght and the perpetuating of certain names would certainly lend itself to that... alternatively they could be a blended geneseed I suppose, but I've always had Alpha legion feelings when I read about them.
Amusingly, the Minotaurs fit pretty well in my own head cannon with being a successor chapter to the 2nd Legion. I like to think that the 2nd Primarch was essentially immune to the Charisma of the Emperor, had no feelings of loyalty to him in any way (essentially the only Primarch who was indifferent to the Emperor), and his own Legion was similarly lacking of the feeling of loyalty to their "Father". So the remnants of the 2nd Legion would be a great legion for the High Lords to use for their own, since even if their Primarch was able to return, his Sons wouldn't flock back to him, like they could with pretty much every other Legion. About the biggest impediment is figuring out how the High Lords retained this knowledge even after the Emperor purged it from history. But if that could be worked out, then yeah, they'd fit pretty well with my view of the 2nd Legion.
I like this idea for the second primarch but something that’s worth noting is that the khan was not “charmed” by the emperor in the least neither was Angron and curze tried to rip out his own eyes on meeting him I can’t remember exactly how mortarion reacted but considering the circumstances I can imagine he wasn’t to different than those mentioned
@@nulatlas2137 That would be my guess, Fabricator General used his position to force Cawl to supply the high lord's with some Primaris early on threat of being declared a heratek and all his work being destroyed. I wouldn't be shocked if Cawl was playing his own game in that move too, it would also explain why he so heavily cosied up to Guilliman on his return as it would be a way out of the FG's shit.
Tbh it has more weight than them being custodies. It’s just not realistically possible. The custodies answer only to the emperor and would absolutely kill anyone who broke certain forbidden laws. I could see someone finding the body of a thunder warrior and getting enough genetic material to splice with traitor gene seed. I can’t see someone getting the secrets to create a custodies.
Agreed, really cool to have a shady loyalist chapter. Like they are absolutely good and loyal, but at the same time cross the lines almost a bit too many times like some sort of "covert government cover up force".
I like to think a couple things: 1. Asterion Moloc is a perpetual. He is a massive space marine that "dies" over and over in fits of overconfident valour/violence, yet he keeps coming back, so its a possibility. 2. The Iron Warriors gene seed was chosen due to it's tendency to follow their duty to the bitter end, not question orders, and not care what those orders are. Iron warriors are the perfect gene seed for say... a chapter that needs to murder other (possibly loyal) marines that are deemed renegade by the high lords. 3. The Minotaurs are aware of their situation, and couldn't give less of a shit. They do their duty to the high-lords, play with their fancy relic toys that they get due to favouritism, and look down on other loyalist marines.
There is literally nothing in-lore hinting at Minotaurs being connected to Iron Warriors. The Thunder Warrior (descendants at least) theory makes the most sense when you read The Outcast Dead. The Minotaurs and TWs have way too many parallels for it to be pure coincidence. Same color scheme, chimeric gene-seed which the possible origins of is shown in The Outcast Dead, with that being done by an escaped Thunder Warrior whose personal heraldry is seemingly identical to the Minotaurs' chapter symbol. The distrust and animosity towards other marines also makes sense when you consider how the TWs felt towards the Astartes, being replaced by them and all.
FYI The Dark Angels were favored by the Emperor as well. During the great crusade they were always supplied directly from Terra. Only with the best and most powerful weapons at the imperium's disposal.
Idky but while listening to this it just dawned on me how giant the imperium is. The tag line is that the imperium contains a million worlds+ The average person reads about 240 words per minute. That means that for an average person to simply verbally read a list of all of their imperium's worlds it would take them 3 days straight of none stop reading. An average sized book contains about 250 words per page. That means a lost of worlds would result in a 4000 page book of just planet names that one would have to read thru.
Desperately want the Minotaurs to be chimeric and/or using geneseed from one of the two lost legions. A legion that is literally an experimental and personal arm of the High Lords. Moloch being either a Custodes sworn to secrecy or the final Thunder Warrior would be amazing. Either of these things would explain a lot.
An observation regarding the Minotaurs. The Minotaurs Chapter Master responded to the head of the High Lords, both before Guilliman & after the upheaval of Guillimans reforms.
I want to see the Chapter "Panthers" fleshed out. It has so much potential in a book since cats like to fight one at a time in teams with Gaurilla tactics.
Eh they do have space marines that do wear camo and they act all gorilla doing sneeky tactics but they never took hold and also space marines dont hide they want the scum xenos to know who exactly it is that are killing them hence all the bright colors banners and flash. When your a super soldier in the image of the emperor camo seems kinda stupid just sayin lol
it seems fairly cut and dry. There was at some point a minotaur chapter, but they were either slain to their last by xenos or the high lords manipulations. Their armor and ships were recovered and refurbished, and a new chapter was made so the high lords could have a private military force to call on in emergencies or when chapters like the Astral Claws turned from the imperium
This has been my favorite idea. That Asterion is simply Omegon/Alpharius. Hence being bigger than an average marine, and putting a Custodes on the back foot as to whether he could take him. It would be the perfect cover for helping the Imperium - taking over the name of an old, lost chapter. They all died out when their Monastery was destroyed - the Fleet Based Minotaurs are simply Alpha Legion.
@@thalastianjorus I believe Omegon and Alpharius were only as big as a normal Marine. The smallest of the Primarchs. The entire Legion with each Marine, could be one of the Primarchs at any one time.. or 500 times or at the very beginning.. 100,000 Omegons.
@@sreed16 Alpharius was the size of _his_ marines. The Alpha Legion are bigger than any other space marines. By a good deal. Alpharius is still almost 9 ½'.
I really wanna see what would happen if the Minotaurs found one of the Fallen. the Dark Angels do not let that slide, but the Minotaurs are the ones that could give them the most trouble.
Video idea. Who has authority over who or a list of who has the higher authority. Like can the inquisition investigate the high Lords or grey knights etc
I want more info on 2 things with the Minotaurs; 1. What is Asterion.... is he a custom custodian commissioned by the high lords to have unflinching loyalty to them, or is he just another astartes that is just better than everyone else? and 2. Just how big is the Daedelos Krata compared to other vessels? A heavy assault carrier is only mentioned one other time, but it doesn't describe their size, armament, or capabilities.
"It was colossal. It was gigantic. Only Phalanx was bigger, but this thing was uglier, harder, grimier. Its engines burned with an angry, golden flame. Its flanks were of burnished bronze, marked with stripes of black and red. Gigantic cannon emplacements disfigured its already crabbed outline. There was no artistry to that thing’s construction, just a raw, bloody aggression. It had been made to slaughter, built back in a forgotten age when our species had been frighteningly good at it. For a moment, I thought that its heavy prow was actually bloodstained, before it emerged more fully into view, exposing yet more weapon arrays, yet more killing potential, yet more destructive energy. Even its movements were ominous, a swagger that spoke of an infinite, unquenchable, arrogant brutality." Daedelos Krata arrival above terra. It was bigger than Exelsis Cruor, an Emperor-class Battleship that at the time was also above Terra.
These books were SO good. Loved the inside look at the custodies and sisters of silence. How they had stagnated with the imperium and how they are trying to break out of that. Chris Wraight is best BL author I think
I always assumed the traitor gene scene was a chimeric between Iron warriors and world eaters, which was a terrifying combination of cold, calculative killers and ruthless, blood pumped close range combatants. An interesting chimeric geneseed if you ask me
Has there ever been an explanation how exactly Cawl/Robbie G assigned primaries marines to chapters that don't know their gene seed origin? There are lots of chapters listed as "unknown origin" yet were given primaris during the IC. I could understand them being taught how to make them so they are from the same primarch, but to give them to chapters of unknown lineage makes no sense.
I don't know but they way I've interpreted the lore is that it was on a needs basis. The chapters suffering most had priority. I'm not sure if there was any deeper planning involved.
@@BM-wf9uf I believe Poet means mixing legions like if a chapter of unknown lineage was given Blood Angel Primaris they would have no idea about the Black Rage or Red Thirst. We would have to assume that chapters of unknown lineage were given Primaris from the more stable legions. At least in some cases the problem solves itself because more than one chapter would suicide mission their Grey Shield Primaris and then convert / raise new ones from within the chapter using the tech provided by the IC.
And if you do a Tau week, please mention Ksi'm'yen. Its the world that got heavily infected by the genestealers, and suggests their ethereal Aun’ghol has been infected.
Wonder if asterions respawning is something similar to Eldar war suits taking on its original pilots personality when someone new dons the armor? Could be something
My own little Minotaurs conspiracy theory is that they came into being some time in/after M36 and they were founded in secret by the High Lords of Terra themselves in response to Goge Vandire's Reign of Blood or potentially by Vandire himself. I could see Vandire being proud and egomaniacal enough that he'd want his own genetics used for a chapter of Space Marines that'd be loyal to him and they just naturally transitioned back to being loyal to the High Lords after his death. Alternatively, the other High Lords could have seen the need for a chapter of Space Marines to serve them as directly as possible to either do their bidding or protect them in the event of conflict. Maybe they were founded with traitor gene seed because that's all they could get ahold of. Or maybe they were founded using the High Lords' own genetics, which had the appearance of non-standard, traitor gene seed since it didn't look like any of the legit loyalist gene seed.
From the highlords genes? Absolutely impossible. Astartes gene seed is derived from a Primarch which in turn is derived from the Emperor. Space Marines made from base line human would either be impossible or so woefully Inferior to what exists as to be useless
I want the scene of the high lords meeting as usual, all smug and in walks a towering golden armoured custodes.. their reactions, and the intruige of the backroom discussions as a result that would be a great book.
I love the Minotaurs! Pleaseeee give us a Minotaurs week :) Now this may be old retconned more but didn’t the lamenters butcher a bunch of them during some fight?
The Minotaurs are one of my favourite chapters! I like the mystery surrounding them, and their true origins and loyalties. One thing that cannot be questioned is their effectiveness! Worth mentioning re: the theory that their Chapter Master is a surviving Thunder Warrior; a) I'd never actually heard that before this video, and b) seems very unlikely given that the Thunder Warriors were quite flawed, and prone to genetic shortfalls which made them very, very prone to death by natural causes - one of the reasons why the Emperor had them purged. c) Asterion Moloc also seems much more shrewd and calculating than a Thunder Warrior. I really enjoyed Watchers of the Throne, and given that there is no "good guys" in WH40K, I liked having a good foil to Guilliman, and to Valerian. While the Minotaurs can be described as a Loyalist Chapter, just who exactly they are loyal to is a matter of interpretation. I see them as a wild card, and would love to see them in more storylines moving forward.
Here are some things to think about. The Minotaurs are awesome, the War Hounds were awesome. The Minotaurs are super loyal to the Imperium via the High Lords, the War Hounds would have been super loyal to the Imperium via the High Lords. The Minotaurs don't get along with other chapters because a. The other chapters are weak and b. The Minotaurs might have to butcher those weaklings. The War Hounds didn't get along with the other legions because the other legions were weak. Since the Minotaurs lack fluffy glorious beards I don't think they have Space Wolf gene seed. These well founded and superior observations leave one conclusion. Minotaurs=War Hounds=awesome 😎.
A few things to keep in mind. 1) Under the control of high lord's doesn't mean ALL high lords. It might be just a personal cooperation between mechanicus and munitirum representatives that the rest isn't aware of. 2. Their existence, early access to primaris and high tech equipment might point to them being a "bribe" for the high lord's given by mechanicus to keep the primaris project a secret all that time. 3. Valerian was a scholar but not an active political agent at the time. The vaults of knowledge on terra are massive. He might have simply never encountered or searched for that information. 4. It is almost impossible for inquisition not to know about the link between high lord's and minotaurs. Inquisition has their representative at high lord's and watches them very carefully after all.
Rho! Please read The Outcast Dead before you do a Minotaur's week! It's so crucial to understanding their possible origins and it seems like almost no one has any idea about it!
If the Custodes know about the Minotaurs, specifically that they operate at the behest of the High Lords, I could see the Custodes allowing it, but with requirements. The Custodes don't have a high opinion of the Astartes, which is in part due to Astartes goals not always aligning with the Imperium, and so BigE's. They couldn't leave Terra, until recently, to police this themselves, so knowing the High Lords were keeping the Astartes in check by using their own personal Astartes would have made sense, when they didn't have Custodes to do it let them have the second best choice. BUT, the Custodes would also be highly aware that the High Lords weren't always on the same hymn sheet either. Now while they could keep tabs on the High Lords themselves on Terra, a High Lords Army wandering around would be harder to keep track of. So I could see them going, look you can have your own Chapter to further and protect the Imperiums interests, but that's a lot of power for you to have, so we're going to need oversight, in the form of the Chapter Master being a Custode. He will follow your orders, so long as he doesn't see them putting the Emperor at risk. Could maybe even be tied into the Custodes that become Eyes of the Emperor, one or more of them go to the Minotaurs to lead/train/watch them. Let's face it, a Custode on his off day 1v1 is likely better than any other Warrior in the Imperium, bar a Primarch, but let's face it when the Minotaurs were setup no one thought they'd see Primarchs again.
I read that book I think seen a near the end confirms the High Lord's connection to them when the new of the administration whisper something in the the chapter master's ear and he took his warriors and left.
One theory about the Minotaur's was they were initially created during the time of War of the False Primarch or the Nova Terra Interregnum. As the High Lords wanted a Space Marines Chapter loyal to them that was designed from the outset to destroy disloyal Space Marines/Chapters and other Imperial forces. The reason for the secrecy was the scandal especially from the original legion chapters of the High Lords questioning the loyalty of original loyalist Chapters. Since the High Lords saw the need to create the Minotaur's. I also would say the Minotaur's are combination of Iron Warriors and Death Guard, possibly with World Eater too.
@@michaelhowell2326 The Blood Angels used to ritually eat their own dead. In the case of their legion master, his successor would eat his entire body, assuming his name, all his memories, and his skills. It was how they managed to maintain continuity of command, despite both an appallingly high rate of attrition and not having a primarch.
@merseniusprime not just the legion master but that was a more extreme case basically any promotion involved eating the brain and assuming the name. Hence the Revenant Legion
I think they are Iron Hands that under went the protocol that allows them to be brought back from the dead (can't remember the story I read that in) and are lead by an Iron Father.
If the chimeric mix is iron warrior and world eater it would explain the archaic aesthetic and ball busting violence en masse . Both varieties are known for outsize marines too.
If the circumstances of your existence are so mindboggingly dangerous that even the Inquisition doesn't know, if I was an Inquisitor, I'd want to steer WELL CLEAR of any of that xD
Space Marines can pass knowledge down between themselves by eating the brain of the last chapter master, Molock can easily live on as such through each marine after him with his knowledge and skill as well as the skill of those gained as him, it’s not often that space marines each others brains, the only chapter to my memory to do this was the Blood Angels pre Sanginius.
Really started to like the Minotaurs uh...less than a year ago. I love the idea that their bankrolled by the high Lord's of Terra. Also that they can replace Marines faster due to the heavy use of implanting memories. Asterion might be a downloaded template that can be put on any marine. 😀
I still believe it’s Arik Taranis 1. The combat style of Maloc is very similar to a Thunder Warrior, and his physical appearance is similar as well. 2. Arik would have no love for the Emperor and the Astartes, but he also wouldn’t be one to fall to chaos. 3. He would be so incredible old by this point, he would need robotic enhancements to stay alive. 4. We know Taranis survived past the HH, and I have to imagine he would take pleasure in hunting down Astartes.
The only thing we know for a fact is that Belsarius Cawl wanted to use traitor Geneseed and even tried to convince Guillimon to let him. Guillimon said "no". But that doesn't necessarily mean Cawl didn't use traitor Geneseed in secret. There are hints but nothing solid.
If it's not a title, he's gotta have some crazy life-extending archaeotech going on. Weren't the thunder warriors designed with shorter lifespans than space marines because they were intended to be discarded after the unification? Or am I misremembering that part?
They could be lost Primarch Geneseed. Which is a loophole because they are technically not traitor and would allow Cawl to test his primaris tech with no real restriction because they shouldn't exist anyways. Also the High Lord's wouldn't have to worry about the call of thier Genefather.
I like the idea of the Minotaurs were space marine made geneseed but with the Thunder Warriors template. Making them stronger than the average space marines
When the blood angels were the revenants from Terra they had a leader that would die then come back. I don’t recall the name. I wonder if the Minotaurs are doing the same thing.
I always seen them as secret loyalist World Eaters. I think they suit that the best considering the asthetic they have too, aswell as they're fighting style.
My head cannon for the Minotaurs having primaris marines before anyone is, that since they have the confidence and trust of the high lords, they were selected as the trial chapter for primaris integration. They would have no problems slaughtering their primaris reinforcements.
Everyone thinks that the HighLords take forever resupplying and making big things happen, but for there own pocket chapter i would imagine they get there gear and arms ASAP no contest
I don't have the wealth of knowledge many have, but I have thought to myself that it could be possible that the chapter master could be a clone. It would make sense that they would want to keep the same, loyal dog at the head no matter what. High lords have access to anything within the imperium, cloning a bad ass chapter master wouldn't be too far out of the realm of possibility
They don't need an actual clone.. "Imperial observers during the Antigonis campaign noted that the transition from neophyte to Scout to full Marine in the Chapter was remarkably fast, and also *highlighted the heavy use of hypno-indoctrination and neuro-cerebral surgery* involved, as well as the monitoring and 'refreshing' of these techniques in full Marines by the Apothecaries of the Chapter." Just a mental image of his personality can be transfered to a new battle brother
@@jirojhasuo2ndgrandcompany745 Yes, of course it's mandatory for this reasons: Hypnotherapy - As the super-enhanced body grows, the recipient must learn how to use his new abilities. Some of the implants, specifically the phase 6 and 10 implants, can only function once correct hypnotherapy has been administered. Indoctrination - Just as their bodies receive 19-22 separate implants, so their minds are altered to release the latent powers within. These mental powers are, if anything, more extraordinary than even the physical powers described above... We talk about stressing the part of "heavy use"...especially the "The devices can also be used to allow a Space Marine to relive their memories, though the user's wits will be briefly dulled when they are done" part.
No he didn’t. That was just a regular custodian who doubted if he can beat Molok. Valerian is the Captain General of all the Custodes and would easily body Molok. Custodes are extremely powerful but they aren’t all at the same level. Valerian is still leagues above a regular Custodes.
It’s not like the custodians have played dumb before. I’d go so far as to say Trajan has plants inside of the Minotaurs, or Guiliman. Hence they’re quick supply of primaris.
I think the Minataurs are a test bed chapter for the Hight Lords. Then all the rumors would make sense. They make some Thunder Warriors to se it they came be controles and are better than Space Marines. Marines with an expiration date would give them a form of control. They would use different gene seed to se if they can get a chapter that is only loyal to them and not some lost primarch. Loyal, traitor or redacted it would matter as long as they get what they want. Same with primaris marines, who would they be loyal to? It would be surprising if they have be purge a couple of times without any record of it. It would also explain why the deploy in full chapter strength, as they can afford some rough element to go unobserved.
Doubt he's a Thunder Warrior, as they were prone to medically/mentaly break down. He could be a TW that got some kind of treatments, but I think it'd be cool if he was a Custode that was engineered to be loyal to the High Lords. They'd have the pull and resources to create one of what the Emp made thousands of, if they recovered the info on how to.
I prefer heresy era Iron Hands or Storm walkers stock. They have the Medusa's scales hardness. Immortals may have some mods from other lines yet the admechs like the 10ths Gene code.
What if the primarch of 2nd legion or 11th legion were never truly destroyed but hided away.Theres been hint that emperor foresaw the heresy,so maybe one of the erased legions were planned as counter measure againts traitor legions
You would think Gulliman would of kicked their ass by now for not being loyal to emps. Now, I would be very shocked if Lion doesn't, why bring back one of the most loyal sons for him not to destroy the unloyal?
What if the mentors are based off the surviving veteran Astartes that Rogal Dorn used at the siege of terra. Garro, Loken etc he had 200. Not sure yet how many died
Personally it seems not fully exploring certain bits of lore is strength of WH40K. The mystery gives lore channels ways to expand and come up with better lore that even GW couldn’t think of .
I think the Minotaurs getting first access to primaris is a massive stretch. Guiliman turns up with Cawl in tow and suddenly the High Council is call the shots as to where the new Primaris are going!!! Come on!
@@artg3316 I don't think so I think next in tech and warp mitigation supersedes sisters of silence and he is able to use his powers in the Pharos when the librarian he is with is unable to. I he is also we know at minimum 10x stronger than the average Primaris marine. Not saying you are wrong just think he is a sleeper when it comes to power scale he I think has all of the legions genetics within him including those of the two missing legions, and seems to have counter measures built into him for seemingly all occasions thanks to Cawl. Personally I think he could easily take out custodes which is why Cawl used primarch tech on him and not just made his own custodian.
@@artg3316 respectfully I am not lying, nor am I accusing so not sure where the hostility is coming from. I'm simply offering an opinion and asking wuestions based off of what I've read in the lore. The novel The Great Works is where I believe there is a reference to his power in regards to him talking about single handedly being able to defeat the ten or so Primaris making up his contingent. Again there are psydampening effects of the Pharos which as I said before is observable and comparable to the null maidens and he isn't effected at all. That being said I am referring to single combat and while he may be less capable as far as dexterity goes he definitely makes up for it with physical/psychic abilities and as there aren't any psydampening primarchs or custodes to our knowledge I think it would make for some great match ups. Again I'd just love to see a deep dive into the topic as it's even got us with a solid back and forth. My thought personally that he is more powerful than a custodes but less powerful than named custodes. I just think he's an intriguing plot point and would love to see the crossover into the table
Molocs Spear “the black spear” Was supposedly once used by a custodies, a close combat spear with a single use las blast. Not sure of any other guys using old custodies equipment. Imperial armour book 12- fall of orpheus
I don't think any normal human, high lord or not, cannot have the same level of being above reproach the way the emperor was. The creator of the Imperium has much more leeway with his legions than a high lord. A human can be corrupted by many things, but the emperor wasn't. So my opinion is that if the High Lord's are directly controlling a secret and shadowy legion, it seems like a direct interference with the defense and expansion that is better left to the custodians, or at least transparent enough that the custodians know what is going on.
The high lords probably wanted to use traitor gene seed as some sort of blackmail if the minotaurs decided to disobey orders
That or keep it to just hold it over them as shame they shure fight like they have something to hide
I love both those ideas
I was thinking that. Do what we say or we'll tell every one your Iron warrior successor. What do think is going to happen when we tell every space marines chapter that we tried to see if we could redeem a traitor geneseed , but it turns out once a traitor always a traitor.
I could see that.
Do the Minotaurs really seem like they would be susceptible to blackmail though? I think they like taking orders from the High Lords, especially when it means they get to beat down other Space Marines and take their gear.
The Minotaurs being traitor stock makes perfect sense. They can never rebel or disobey orders. As soon as they stepped out of line, the High Lords can 'discover' their heritage and have them destroyed.
Its said they are iron warriors so
1 iron warrior gene seed os the most stable and least likely to mutate
2 iron warriors are dutyful tenacous and tacticful
Their good reason to use their gene seed
@@demonic_myst4503 Minotaur's have abominations in their rank which are SM that became heavily mutated because of their edited geneseed.
So the first comment said a lot that is true but I'd like to add that apparently the Iron Warriors are amongst the most physically powerful and durable Astartes and can manifest as thunder warrior tier
@@tdlainc.4737 I have never seen or heard anything to suggest anything like that.. Are you sure you're not confusing it with their (rumoured) psycho-indoctrination making them mentally unstable?
I always liked the idea that a bunch of Loyalist Iron Warriors were offered redemption and a cover story in return for unquestioning loyalty to the High Lords. They were made to assume the identity of an extinct Chapter and given the best tech by the AdMech who they already had a close relationship with. They were loyal in the first place as they didn't want to follow Perturabo anymore. I'm sure the Decimation never sat well with a good deal of those who survived it. Makes total sense
There is a known unit sized force of Iron Warriors (namely the 114th grand battalion) that roughly fits this picture.
The 114th was a traitor force of about 6000 marines that was tossed into a heavy siege that saw 2/3 of their number dead and their leadership reduced to a disgraced and half-crippled marine.
And then they were tossed at a forge world by the Alpha Legion and told that they couldn’t retreat (the alpha legion would blow them up from orbit if they tried).
The 114th then turned (again), drove off the Alpha Legion, purged their own ranks, and went back to hunting traitors.
No mention of the 114th exist past the Horus Heresy era.
@@spookyghostwriter3110 this fits perfectly! It's officially part of my headcanon now lol
@@joelkurowski7129 Some additional notes I forgot to mention:
The 114th was not the only loyalist force active on the Forge World (named Mezoa if you want to do some reading) in question. A mismash of Salamanders, Raven Guard, Iron Hands, and even some Imperial Fists were on the planet (though as far as astartes went the loyalists were outnumbered something like 9 to 1). Since the Alpha Legion force was routed, it remains plausible that much of their gene seed was left behind, which could also explain why Minotaurs gene seed is considered “chimeric” in nature.
@Spooky Ghost Writer I'd forgotten that fact about their gene seed. It's well-established that you can mix and match from different primarchs, so maybe they're a little bit of both
1 out of 10 iron warriors think decimation is bad idea
Gotta say the lack of info about these marines makes them fascinating to make theories about, but it's time to give them more lore. After all it's not every day that you see a space marine confidently wanting to take on a custodes... Any space marine knows that would be suicide in a 1v1 scenario. Moloc wasn't backed into a corner with no option but to fight Valerian, he was just willing to do it and that to me means he was sure about his chances, can't get anymore badass than that tbh!
Gotta love a wild card in the mix eh! Especially Space Marine wild cards!
Welp, his datasheet back then was truly a murderous one. Boy was killing any chapter master on the table, none of regular marines stand chance against him.
not only was moloc's swagger confident, it was valerian's confidence that was in question. It's the one single event that has made me a fan of the minotaurs. Personally, more of a fan of moloc.
Asterion has to be a custody himself or a hidden primarch...it doesnt make sense how he can confidently go all in for 1vs1 kill.
The Space Sharks are the counter balance to the Minotaurs. The High Lords attempt a coup, the Sharks murder everything, and someone shoves a jetbike up Abaddon's chute.
If i had a nickel for every space marine faction that looked really cool to me but had their coolness ruined by being attack dogs of a corrupt imperium faction, I’d have two nickels but it’s upsetting that it happened twice
As a fan of the Exorcists...I feel you I really hope they scape the lash of they respective factions!
If I had a nickel for every space marine faction that looked really cool to me but had their coolness ruined by being corrupt attack dogs of a corrupt imperium faction, I’d have a nickel for every space marine chapter.
@@bruhed1117 🧌
My personal theory has often been, primarily due to their size, that the Minotaurs are Alpha Legion in origin(i.e. potentially loyal, but also potentially not so), yes they can fight and adopt which ever style they wish, but the travelling at chapter strenght and the perpetuating of certain names would certainly lend itself to that... alternatively they could be a blended geneseed I suppose, but I've always had Alpha legion feelings when I read about them.
Amusingly, the Minotaurs fit pretty well in my own head cannon with being a successor chapter to the 2nd Legion. I like to think that the 2nd Primarch was essentially immune to the Charisma of the Emperor, had no feelings of loyalty to him in any way (essentially the only Primarch who was indifferent to the Emperor), and his own Legion was similarly lacking of the feeling of loyalty to their "Father". So the remnants of the 2nd Legion would be a great legion for the High Lords to use for their own, since even if their Primarch was able to return, his Sons wouldn't flock back to him, like they could with pretty much every other Legion.
About the biggest impediment is figuring out how the High Lords retained this knowledge even after the Emperor purged it from history. But if that could be worked out, then yeah, they'd fit pretty well with my view of the 2nd Legion.
a good one, i like this
I like this idea for the second primarch but something that’s worth noting is that the khan was not “charmed” by the emperor in the least neither was Angron and curze tried to rip out his own eyes on meeting him I can’t remember exactly how mortarion reacted but considering the circumstances I can imagine he wasn’t to different than those mentioned
@@blingsing5383 What book can I read about Curze meeting Emps for the first time?
I thought the Minotaurs are Loyalist World Eaters
Ah, the missing aspect of the Emperor’s IDGAF. Excellent.
Cawl could have been dealing with the high lords as a back up to making him fabricator general of mars.
What do you mean? They have zero say in the declaration of a new Fabricator General. Even if the FG has a seat on the HL. I would think, anyway.
They probably made him give them early or first reinforcements, they would.have probably declared him heratek other wires
@@nulatlas2137 That would be my guess, Fabricator General used his position to force Cawl to supply the high lord's with some Primaris early on threat of being declared a heratek and all his work being destroyed.
I wouldn't be shocked if Cawl was playing his own game in that move too, it would also explain why he so heavily cosied up to Guilliman on his return as it would be a way out of the FG's shit.
Ah yes Cawl the better than emperor person...
@@tarektechmarine8209 not really
I really like the idea of the minators being something to do with the thunder warriors .
Makes sense for their hatred for traitor Astartes.
Tbh it has more weight than them being custodies. It’s just not realistically possible. The custodies answer only to the emperor and would absolutely kill anyone who broke certain forbidden laws. I could see someone finding the body of a thunder warrior and getting enough genetic material to splice with traitor gene seed. I can’t see someone getting the secrets to create a custodies.
@@blacktemplarbrotherlucius1935 not really. If anything they would hate loyal astartes more, considering they genocided the Thunder Warriors
@@johansmifthelry9307 only daek angles and cuatidea
The minotaurs deserve a few novels of their own. As well as some proper codex rules. Come on GW
Agreed, really cool to have a shady loyalist chapter. Like they are absolutely good and loyal, but at the same time cross the lines almost a bit too many times like some sort of "covert government cover up force".
Their books would be "I [REDACTED] Captain of the Minotaurs Have [REDACTED REDACTED REDACTED BY ORDER OF THE HIGH LORDS OF TERRA]
Thanks a lot for the Minotaurs videos this week! 🙏🙏🙏
I like to think a couple things:
1. Asterion Moloc is a perpetual. He is a massive space marine that "dies" over and over in fits of overconfident valour/violence, yet he keeps coming back, so its a possibility.
2. The Iron Warriors gene seed was chosen due to it's tendency to follow their duty to the bitter end, not question orders, and not care what those orders are. Iron warriors are the perfect gene seed for say... a chapter that needs to murder other (possibly loyal) marines that are deemed renegade by the high lords.
3. The Minotaurs are aware of their situation, and couldn't give less of a shit. They do their duty to the high-lords, play with their fancy relic toys that they get due to favouritism, and look down on other loyalist marines.
There is literally nothing in-lore hinting at Minotaurs being connected to Iron Warriors. The Thunder Warrior (descendants at least) theory makes the most sense when you read The Outcast Dead. The Minotaurs and TWs have way too many parallels for it to be pure coincidence.
Same color scheme, chimeric gene-seed which the possible origins of is shown in The Outcast Dead, with that being done by an escaped Thunder Warrior whose personal heraldry is seemingly identical to the Minotaurs' chapter symbol. The distrust and animosity towards other marines also makes sense when you consider how the TWs felt towards the Astartes, being replaced by them and all.
FYI The Dark Angels were favored by the Emperor as well. During the great crusade they were always supplied directly from Terra. Only with the best and most powerful weapons at the imperium's disposal.
Idky but while listening to this it just dawned on me how giant the imperium is.
The tag line is that the imperium contains a million worlds+
The average person reads about 240 words per minute. That means that for an average person to simply verbally read a list of all of their imperium's worlds it would take them 3 days straight of none stop reading.
An average sized book contains about 250 words per page. That means a lost of worlds would result in a 4000 page book of just planet names that one would have to read thru.
Desperately want the Minotaurs to be chimeric and/or using geneseed from one of the two lost legions. A legion that is literally an experimental and personal arm of the High Lords. Moloch being either a Custodes sworn to secrecy or the final Thunder Warrior would be amazing. Either of these things would explain a lot.
An observation regarding the Minotaurs. The Minotaurs Chapter Master responded to the head of the High Lords, both before Guilliman & after the upheaval of Guillimans reforms.
I want to see the Chapter "Panthers" fleshed out. It has so much potential in a book since cats like to fight one at a time in teams with Gaurilla tactics.
aint they all killed ?
Eh they do have space marines that do wear camo and they act all gorilla doing sneeky tactics but they never took hold and also space marines dont hide they want the scum xenos to know who exactly it is that are killing them hence all the bright colors banners and flash. When your a super soldier in the image of the emperor camo seems kinda stupid just sayin lol
it seems fairly cut and dry. There was at some point a minotaur chapter, but they were either slain to their last by xenos or the high lords manipulations. Their armor and ships were recovered and refurbished, and a new chapter was made so the high lords could have a private military force to call on in emergencies or when chapters like the Astral Claws turned from the imperium
I would like to know who the original Minotaurs were, obviously the Minotaurs now have all been killed and replaced by the Alpha Legion.
This has been my favorite idea. That Asterion is simply Omegon/Alpharius. Hence being bigger than an average marine, and putting a Custodes on the back foot as to whether he could take him.
It would be the perfect cover for helping the Imperium - taking over the name of an old, lost chapter. They all died out when their Monastery was destroyed - the Fleet Based Minotaurs are simply Alpha Legion.
@@thalastianjorus plus with all the secrecy and access to who knows what the Minotaurs have, it would be the perfect cover for the Alpha Legion.
@@thalastianjorus I like that a lot actually lol. I always wanted it to be loyalist world eaters but that idea sounds way better lol.
@@thalastianjorus I believe Omegon and Alpharius were only as big as a normal Marine. The smallest of the Primarchs. The entire Legion with each Marine, could be one of the Primarchs at any one time.. or 500 times or at the very beginning.. 100,000 Omegons.
@@sreed16 Alpharius was the size of _his_ marines. The Alpha Legion are bigger than any other space marines. By a good deal. Alpharius is still almost 9 ½'.
I would not be surprised if the Minotaurs turned out to be from World Eater or Iron Warriors loyalists. Maybe a hybridized mix of the two.
I always thought Alpharius Molloch was an interesting character, myself.
Minotaur dominatus
I wish to hear more stories about the doom legion. Incredibly cool chapter with very little info known
The early primaris is the most telling part of all, either someone had accees to Cawls most secretive projects or Cawl was involved.
Such a great series I wish there was a 3rd book. Chris Wraight might be my favorite author I love how he writes Custodes which is my fav faction.
love the work u do wolf lord rho keep it up my friend
I really wanna see what would happen if the Minotaurs found one of the Fallen. the Dark Angels do not let that slide, but the Minotaurs are the ones that could give them the most trouble.
Video idea. Who has authority over who or a list of who has the higher authority. Like can the inquisition investigate the high Lords or grey knights etc
I want more info on 2 things with the Minotaurs; 1. What is Asterion.... is he a custom custodian commissioned by the high lords to have unflinching loyalty to them, or is he just another astartes that is just better than everyone else? and 2. Just how big is the Daedelos Krata compared to other vessels? A heavy assault carrier is only mentioned one other time, but it doesn't describe their size, armament, or capabilities.
How about 1: He's Alpharius/Omegon (whoever survived of the two) and 2: it's a big boy, probably just shy of a full battleship
"It was colossal. It was gigantic. Only Phalanx was bigger, but this thing was uglier, harder, grimier. Its engines burned with an angry, golden flame. Its flanks were of burnished bronze, marked with stripes of black and red. Gigantic cannon emplacements disfigured its already crabbed outline. There was no artistry to that thing’s construction, just a raw, bloody aggression. It had been made to slaughter, built back in a forgotten age when our species had been frighteningly good at it. For a moment, I thought that its heavy prow was actually bloodstained, before it emerged more fully into view, exposing yet more weapon arrays, yet more killing potential, yet more destructive energy. Even its movements were ominous, a swagger that spoke of an infinite, unquenchable, arrogant brutality." Daedelos Krata arrival above terra. It was bigger than Exelsis Cruor, an Emperor-class Battleship that at the time was also above Terra.
These books were SO good. Loved the inside look at the custodies and sisters of silence. How they had stagnated with the imperium and how they are trying to break out of that. Chris Wraight is best BL author I think
I always assumed the traitor gene scene was a chimeric between Iron warriors and world eaters, which was a terrifying combination of cold, calculative killers and ruthless, blood pumped close range combatants. An interesting chimeric geneseed if you ask me
Has there ever been an explanation how exactly Cawl/Robbie G assigned primaries marines to chapters that don't know their gene seed origin? There are lots of chapters listed as "unknown origin" yet were given primaris during the IC. I could understand them being taught how to make them so they are from the same primarch, but to give them to chapters of unknown lineage makes no sense.
I don't know but they way I've interpreted the lore is that it was on a needs basis. The chapters suffering most had priority.
I'm not sure if there was any deeper planning involved.
@@BM-wf9uf I believe Poet means mixing legions like if a chapter of unknown lineage was given Blood Angel Primaris they would have no idea about the Black Rage or Red Thirst. We would have to assume that chapters of unknown lineage were given Primaris from the more stable legions. At least in some cases the problem solves itself because more than one chapter would suicide mission their Grey Shield Primaris and then convert / raise new ones from within the chapter using the tech provided by the IC.
Good stuff. I've been fascinated with the Custodes for a while now
And if you do a Tau week, please mention Ksi'm'yen. Its the world that got heavily infected by the genestealers, and suggests their ethereal Aun’ghol has been infected.
Wonder if asterions respawning is something similar to Eldar war suits taking on its original pilots personality when someone new dons the armor? Could be something
My own little Minotaurs conspiracy theory is that they came into being some time in/after M36 and they were founded in secret by the High Lords of Terra themselves in response to Goge Vandire's Reign of Blood or potentially by Vandire himself. I could see Vandire being proud and egomaniacal enough that he'd want his own genetics used for a chapter of Space Marines that'd be loyal to him and they just naturally transitioned back to being loyal to the High Lords after his death. Alternatively, the other High Lords could have seen the need for a chapter of Space Marines to serve them as directly as possible to either do their bidding or protect them in the event of conflict. Maybe they were founded with traitor gene seed because that's all they could get ahold of. Or maybe they were founded using the High Lords' own genetics, which had the appearance of non-standard, traitor gene seed since it didn't look like any of the legit loyalist gene seed.
From the highlords genes? Absolutely impossible. Astartes gene seed is derived from a Primarch which in turn is derived from the Emperor. Space Marines made from base line human would either be impossible or so woefully Inferior to what exists as to be useless
Some random human can't have his genes used to make space marines. That's what the Primarchs were created for.
These dudes throttled my sweet caring Lamenters, to the eye with them.
I want the scene of the high lords meeting as usual, all smug and in walks a towering golden armoured custodes.. their reactions, and the intruige of the backroom discussions as a result that would be a great book.
I love the Minotaurs! Pleaseeee give us a Minotaurs week :)
Now this may be old retconned more but didn’t the lamenters butcher a bunch of them during some fight?
You got it backwards mate, Lamenters were butchered
Does anyone know if there is going to be a third book in this series?
I hope so, but it would be outside of Terra
@Jesús Revette Aleya, let loose on the galaxy would be hilarious.
@@Wraithlord-fp5lh hunting what I suspect was a cult to tzeench
The Minotaurs are one of my favourite chapters! I like the mystery surrounding them, and their true origins and loyalties. One thing that cannot be questioned is their effectiveness! Worth mentioning re: the theory that their Chapter Master is a surviving Thunder Warrior; a) I'd never actually heard that before this video, and b) seems very unlikely given that the Thunder Warriors were quite flawed, and prone to genetic shortfalls which made them very, very prone to death by natural causes - one of the reasons why the Emperor had them purged. c) Asterion Moloc also seems much more shrewd and calculating than a Thunder Warrior. I really enjoyed Watchers of the Throne, and given that there is no "good guys" in WH40K, I liked having a good foil to Guilliman, and to Valerian. While the Minotaurs can be described as a Loyalist Chapter, just who exactly they are loyal to is a matter of interpretation. I see them as a wild card, and would love to see them in more storylines moving forward.
Here are some things to think about. The Minotaurs are awesome, the War Hounds were awesome. The Minotaurs are super loyal to the Imperium via the High Lords, the War Hounds would have been super loyal to the Imperium via the High Lords. The Minotaurs don't get along with other chapters because a. The other chapters are weak and b. The Minotaurs might have to butcher those weaklings. The War Hounds didn't get along with the other legions because the other legions were weak. Since the Minotaurs lack fluffy glorious beards I don't think they have Space Wolf gene seed. These well founded and superior observations leave one conclusion. Minotaurs=War Hounds=awesome 😎.
Your post is amusing, but it made my day. I like it. 👍
A few things to keep in mind.
1) Under the control of high lord's doesn't mean ALL high lords. It might be just a personal cooperation between mechanicus and munitirum representatives that the rest isn't aware of.
2. Their existence, early access to primaris and high tech equipment might point to them being a "bribe" for the high lord's given by mechanicus to keep the primaris project a secret all that time.
3. Valerian was a scholar but not an active political agent at the time. The vaults of knowledge on terra are massive. He might have simply never encountered or searched for that information.
4. It is almost impossible for inquisition not to know about the link between high lord's and minotaurs. Inquisition has their representative at high lord's and watches them very carefully after all.
Rho! Please read The Outcast Dead before you do a Minotaur's week! It's so crucial to understanding their possible origins and it seems like almost no one has any idea about it!
This.
If the Custodes know about the Minotaurs, specifically that they operate at the behest of the High Lords, I could see the Custodes allowing it, but with requirements.
The Custodes don't have a high opinion of the Astartes, which is in part due to Astartes goals not always aligning with the Imperium, and so BigE's. They couldn't leave Terra, until recently, to police this themselves, so knowing the High Lords were keeping the Astartes in check by using their own personal Astartes would have made sense, when they didn't have Custodes to do it let them have the second best choice.
BUT, the Custodes would also be highly aware that the High Lords weren't always on the same hymn sheet either. Now while they could keep tabs on the High Lords themselves on Terra, a High Lords Army wandering around would be harder to keep track of.
So I could see them going, look you can have your own Chapter to further and protect the Imperiums interests, but that's a lot of power for you to have, so we're going to need oversight, in the form of the Chapter Master being a Custode.
He will follow your orders, so long as he doesn't see them putting the Emperor at risk.
Could maybe even be tied into the Custodes that become Eyes of the Emperor, one or more of them go to the Minotaurs to lead/train/watch them. Let's face it, a Custode on his off day 1v1 is likely better than any other Warrior in the Imperium, bar a Primarch, but let's face it when the Minotaurs were setup no one thought they'd see Primarchs again.
I read that book I think seen a near the end confirms the High Lord's connection to them when the new of the administration whisper something in the the chapter master's ear and he took his warriors and left.
One theory about the Minotaur's was they were initially created during the time of War of the False Primarch or the Nova Terra Interregnum. As the High Lords wanted a Space Marines Chapter loyal to them that was designed from the outset to destroy disloyal Space Marines/Chapters and other Imperial forces. The reason for the secrecy was the scandal especially from the original legion chapters of the High Lords questioning the loyalty of original loyalist Chapters. Since the High Lords saw the need to create the Minotaur's. I also would say the Minotaur's are combination of Iron Warriors and Death Guard, possibly with World Eater too.
FIRST COMMENT WOLF LORD RHO IS SHOWING MY IRON BOYS IN BRONZE THE LOVE THEY DESERVE
These guys rock so much
I wonder what will happen should Asterian Moloch meet the Lion and his fallen.
I’m curious actually with how he’s gonna handle the high lords of terra or truthfully how they’re gonna handle the lion.
@@grtdrmmrs Or how the lion will handle them
Love your work rho
Not knowing about the minotaurs or ANY unit is a major security risk,
There is also the possibility that Molock is something similar to Ishidur Ossuros (the master of the Ninth before Sanguineous)
What does that mean?
@@michaelhowell2326 The Blood Angels used to ritually eat their own dead. In the case of their legion master, his successor would eat his entire body, assuming his name, all his memories, and his skills. It was how they managed to maintain continuity of command, despite both an appallingly high rate of attrition and not having a primarch.
@merseniusprime not just the legion master but that was a more extreme case basically any promotion involved eating the brain and assuming the name. Hence the Revenant Legion
I think they are Iron Hands that under went the protocol that allows them to be brought back from the dead (can't remember the story I read that in) and are lead by an Iron Father.
If the chimeric mix is iron warrior and world eater it would explain the archaic aesthetic and ball busting violence en masse .
Both varieties are known for outsize marines too.
If the circumstances of your existence are so mindboggingly dangerous that even the Inquisition doesn't know, if I was an Inquisitor, I'd want to steer WELL CLEAR of any of that xD
Space Marines can pass knowledge down between themselves by eating the brain of the last chapter master, Molock can easily live on as such through each marine after him with his knowledge and skill as well as the skill of those gained as him, it’s not often that space marines each others brains, the only chapter to my memory to do this was the Blood Angels pre Sanginius.
brother Rho i have a question do we have any lore on haegr the mountain
Really started to like the Minotaurs uh...less than a year ago.
I love the idea that their bankrolled by the high Lord's of Terra. Also that they can replace Marines faster due to the heavy use of implanting memories. Asterion might be a downloaded template that can be put on any marine. 😀
I still believe it’s Arik Taranis
1. The combat style of Maloc is very similar to a Thunder Warrior, and his physical appearance is similar as well.
2. Arik would have no love for the Emperor and the Astartes, but he also wouldn’t be one to fall to chaos.
3. He would be so incredible old by this point, he would need robotic enhancements to stay alive.
4. We know Taranis survived past the HH, and I have to imagine he would take pleasure in hunting down Astartes.
As far as the lore goes, do we know for a fact that any of the successor chapters are indeed derived from Traitor gene seed?
No, only hints, sometimes strong ones.
The only thing we know for a fact is that Belsarius Cawl wanted to use traitor Geneseed and even tried to convince Guillimon to let him. Guillimon said "no".
But that doesn't necessarily mean Cawl didn't use traitor Geneseed in secret. There are hints but nothing solid.
I'm gay 😂
Regents Shadow might be my favorite 40k book.
I would like to know what they think of the chapter the brazen Minotaur’s seen in the raven guard books and are there any links between the chapters
Thank you for your video
If it's not a title, he's gotta have some crazy life-extending archaeotech going on. Weren't the thunder warriors designed with shorter lifespans than space marines because they were intended to be discarded after the unification? Or am I misremembering that part?
They could be lost Primarch Geneseed. Which is a loophole because they are technically not traitor and would allow Cawl to test his primaris tech with no real restriction because they shouldn't exist anyways. Also the High Lord's wouldn't have to worry about the call of thier Genefather.
I like the idea of the Minotaurs were space marine made geneseed but with the Thunder Warriors template. Making them stronger than the average space marines
Lol. Valerian always read like Kitten's number one fan
When the blood angels were the revenants from Terra they had a leader that would die then come back. I don’t recall the name. I wonder if the Minotaurs are doing the same thing.
I have the a feeling the Minotaurs are gonna f around and find out when the Lion makes it to Terra. They will think he’s like G and pay for it.
I always seen them as secret loyalist World Eaters. I think they suit that the best considering the asthetic they have too, aswell as they're fighting style.
I think they're Emperor's Children, because the Minotaurs are sexy
My head cannon for the Minotaurs having primaris marines before anyone is, that since they have the confidence and trust of the high lords, they were selected as the trial chapter for primaris integration. They would have no problems slaughtering their primaris reinforcements.
Everyone thinks that the HighLords take forever resupplying and making big things happen, but for there own pocket chapter i would imagine they get there gear and arms ASAP no contest
Whatever the Minotaurs origin and motivation, I suspect the Lion will take a decidedly dim view of them. That won’t end well for them.
I don't have the wealth of knowledge many have, but I have thought to myself that it could be possible that the chapter master could be a clone. It would make sense that they would want to keep the same, loyal dog at the head no matter what. High lords have access to anything within the imperium, cloning a bad ass chapter master wouldn't be too far out of the realm of possibility
They don't need an actual clone..
"Imperial observers during the Antigonis campaign noted that the transition from neophyte to Scout to full Marine in the Chapter was remarkably fast, and also *highlighted the heavy use of hypno-indoctrination and neuro-cerebral surgery* involved, as well as the monitoring and 'refreshing' of these techniques in full Marines by the Apothecaries of the Chapter."
Just a mental image of his personality can be transfered to a new battle brother
@@ravanpee1325 really appreciate the info!
That's way cooler than just cloning too haha
@@ravanpee1325all of space marines do those though
@@jirojhasuo2ndgrandcompany745 Yes, of course it's mandatory for this reasons:
Hypnotherapy - As the super-enhanced body grows, the recipient must learn how to use his new abilities. Some of the implants, specifically the phase 6 and 10 implants, can only function once correct hypnotherapy has been administered. Indoctrination - Just as their bodies receive 19-22 separate implants, so their minds are altered to release the latent powers within. These mental powers are, if anything, more extraordinary than even the physical powers described above...
We talk about stressing the part of "heavy use"...especially the "The devices can also be used to allow a Space Marine to relive their memories, though the user's wits will be briefly dulled when they are done" part.
There is also a scene where Valerian looks at Molok and goes error 404 on how to beat this thing!
No he didn’t. That was just a regular custodian who doubted if he can beat Molok. Valerian is the Captain General of all the Custodes and would easily body Molok. Custodes are extremely powerful but they aren’t all at the same level. Valerian is still leagues above a regular Custodes.
@@Narunata247 You mean Valoris? Valerian is a Shield-Captain!
@@allunt8170 you right. For some reason I read “Valerian” as “Valoris”. Valoris would still body Molok.
It’s not like the custodians have played dumb before. I’d go so far as to say Trajan has plants inside of the Minotaurs, or Guiliman. Hence they’re quick supply of primaris.
I think the Minataurs are a test bed chapter for the Hight Lords.
Then all the rumors would make sense.
They make some Thunder Warriors to se it they came be controles and are better than Space Marines.
Marines with an expiration date would give them a form of control.
They would use different gene seed to se if they can get a chapter that is only loyal to them and not some lost primarch.
Loyal, traitor or redacted it would matter as long as they get what they want.
Same with primaris marines, who would they be loyal to?
It would be surprising if they have be purge a couple of times without any record of it.
It would also explain why the deploy in full chapter strength, as they can afford some rough element to go unobserved.
Stocked for a Minotaurs week
Doubt he's a Thunder Warrior, as they were prone to medically/mentaly break down. He could be a TW that got some kind of treatments, but I think it'd be cool if he was a Custode that was engineered to be loyal to the High Lords. They'd have the pull and resources to create one of what the Emp made thousands of, if they recovered the info on how to.
I prefer heresy era Iron Hands or Storm walkers stock. They have the Medusa's scales hardness. Immortals may have some mods from other lines yet the admechs like the 10ths Gene code.
"in the aftermath" is supposed to be associated with a disaster, not a good news like guilli coming back and bringing the primaris
Valoris knows. Now we even know who is the master of Minotaurs.
What if the primarch of 2nd legion or 11th legion were never truly destroyed but hided away.Theres been hint that emperor foresaw the heresy,so maybe one of the erased legions were planned as counter measure againts traitor legions
The Red Scorpions crusades would be intresting
You would think Gulliman would of kicked their ass by now for not being loyal to emps. Now, I would be very shocked if Lion doesn't, why bring back one of the most loyal sons for him not to destroy the unloyal?
Maybe they’re belisarius cawls private marines
👍 Love the Minotaur's
Isn’t the night lord’s gene seed one of the purest?
What if the mentors are based off the surviving veteran Astartes that Rogal Dorn used at the siege of terra. Garro, Loken etc he had 200. Not sure yet how many died
Personally it seems not fully exploring certain bits of lore is strength of WH40K. The mystery gives lore channels ways to expand and come up with better lore that even GW couldn’t think of .
I think the Minotaurs getting first access to primaris is a massive stretch. Guiliman turns up with Cawl in tow and suddenly the High Council is call the shots as to where the new Primaris are going!!! Come on!
When will Alpha Primus get a video/rules/model? Could Alpha Primaris take on Trajan/ Valdor or even a primarch?
@@artg3316 I don't think so I think next in tech and warp mitigation supersedes sisters of silence and he is able to use his powers in the Pharos when the librarian he is with is unable to. I he is also we know at minimum 10x stronger than the average Primaris marine. Not saying you are wrong just think he is a sleeper when it comes to power scale he I think has all of the legions genetics within him including those of the two missing legions, and seems to have counter measures built into him for seemingly all occasions thanks to Cawl. Personally I think he could easily take out custodes which is why Cawl used primarch tech on him and not just made his own custodian.
@@artg3316 respectfully I am not lying, nor am I accusing so not sure where the hostility is coming from. I'm simply offering an opinion and asking wuestions based off of what I've read in the lore. The novel The Great Works is where I believe there is a reference to his power in regards to him talking about single handedly being able to defeat the ten or so Primaris making up his contingent. Again there are psydampening effects of the Pharos which as I said before is observable and comparable to the null maidens and he isn't effected at all. That being said I am referring to single combat and while he may be less capable as far as dexterity goes he definitely makes up for it with physical/psychic abilities and as there aren't any psydampening primarchs or custodes to our knowledge I think it would make for some great match ups. Again I'd just love to see a deep dive into the topic as it's even got us with a solid back and forth. My thought personally that he is more powerful than a custodes but less powerful than named custodes. I just think he's an intriguing plot point and would love to see the crossover into the table
The Minotaurs seem to be a Chimera of Iron Warriors and Angron.
As far as I remember the minotaurs even use weapons similar to the guardian spears of the custodes
Molocs Spear “the black spear”
Was supposedly once used by a custodies, a close combat spear with a single use las blast.
Not sure of any other guys using old custodies equipment.
Imperial armour book 12- fall of orpheus
I don't think any normal human, high lord or not, cannot have the same level of being above reproach the way the emperor was. The creator of the Imperium has much more leeway with his legions than a high lord. A human can be corrupted by many things, but the emperor wasn't. So my opinion is that if the High Lord's are directly controlling a secret and shadowy legion, it seems like a direct interference with the defense and expansion that is better left to the custodians, or at least transparent enough that the custodians know what is going on.
Personally I think Asterion is actually Alpharius/Omegon. Maybe the whole chapter are alpha legion, maybe some of them, maybe just the chapter master.
Has anybody seen Alpharius???
Imagine Minotaurs becoming the dogs of the Custodes ignoring the high lords 😂
I would Like that
“The Minotaurs have come to Terra”