History and Development of the GI M16 Magazine
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- Опубліковано 1 вер 2018
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Most informative Firearms guy on UA-cam appreciate your Channel
The first "Colt" 30 rounders came out in the 1960s, but was never adopted by the U.S. Units and individuals did buy them and use them in Vietnam. Most important example being their use in the Son Tay Raid (spelling???). These were constant curve mags with metal followers, and would not work in every M16 receiver. You can actually find ads for them in 1960s Guns&Ammo and the American Rifleman. The Son Tay raiders actually checked the function of each mag in the rifle it would be used in before the raid! The 30 rounders actually adopted in 1970-72 by the US Military had Emerald Green Followers, and a part number visible on the follower and mag body.
Chris, FYI regarding Gen 4 EPM suppliers to the Army....Center Industries & Okay Industries are the only approved suppliers. Brownells does not produce Gen 4 mags and I was told they are discontinuing production of their Gen 3 mags (Tan follower). The good news is that in 2019 Brownells will have Okay Industries private label 30rd mags for them in Grey & Tan finishes with Magpul followers.
The Beard of Knowledge has spoken.
Chris, as Villamor78 said you put into words in such a short time than most of us spend hours and days to research.
Thank you for taking the time to put your endless knowledge into these superb videos.
I imagine big Army wasn’t really happy the guy at 10th Mtn went to you instead going through big Army. Awesome of Colt stepping up and reading pmags so they could do the testing.
I issue the M-16 rifle Magazine in 1965 when I was in Toi special forces at the time the only other’s Branch I knew that had them was the Air Force military police. I’m not even sure we called the rifle the M16 It’s been so long ago but that was my primary weapon tell 1998 when I retire with 43 years of military service.
I've bought several EPM magazines and they do function great regardless of using M855-A1. They're also cheap and look great so that was a big plus also. $10 for an EPM magazine vs $15-$20 for other GI mags of equal performance in M855 to MK262.
My great uncle was in the 10th mountain div in WW2, and served in Italy.
Was able to get my hands on 10 of these EPMs from a couple surplus stores around Fort Hood. So glad I did. They're pretty awesome.
I tactically acquired my EPM lol
Typical Big Army. Pour a bunch of money into R&D to come up with an anti-tilt magazine follower when they could have just bought Magpul followers. I am sure Magpul would have given the Army a volume discount on a several million unit order and molded them in whatever color the Army wanted.
I'm late as well. That being said soldiers like myself saw the issues in the gi magazines and purchased our own pmags with our own money. I had 14 myself and would rotate them out every month. Even the "third gen" magazine was garbage. Especially when in an arid environment. Any dust in the damn thing and the magazine would jam. I'm not talking sand even just very light dust would jam them. Snow would too. I took 7 to the range in Alaska and only one of them worked properly. Its very hard to keep things like dust and snow out of a magazine like the gi ones. Their floorplate has a hole in it to aid in disassembly. And the parkerized finished internal walls are friction inducing. Never use any magazine that is parkerized internally.
@@nathanmanley4203 The Marines are exclusively using the Gen3 Pmag with the window and dust cover. They gave up on GI mags a long time ago.
When the marines start seeing feed lips cracking they wont be using pmags anymore.
Aluminum USGI magazines with upgraded antitilt followers are superior.
Isn't that hindsight reasoning? You want the benefits of the knowledge of the R&D which proved magpul had the right follower but then say the R&D shouldn't have been spent and just taken a gamble with magpul.
😮😅😅😅😅😅
Great info and thanks a lot to the guy who sent the mag!
I've shot over one thousand M885A1 rounds with my polish army wz.96 beryl rifle in Afghanistan - They cause no issues. There was no jams at all ! I love it ! But the AK type mags in general are already point rounds up.
Like 5.45
Your videos are educational. I noticed on various magazine manufacturers that how rounds sit differently. I know why now thanks you.
Greatly appreciate your time and effort on making these educational videos.
Thanks you
I got some 20 rounders with metal followers, still work to.
Great information. My late 80’s Colt SP1 came with 20 rd mags with metal followers.I also have 20 rds with black plastic followers I probably bought in late 80’s early 90’s.
I have several black follower mags still in the plastic dated April 1990. They were infact still made post 1985.
I have one marked 91 with a black follower. Center industries
Love these videos.
Aim surplus has Colt Tan follower mags in stock, produced in 2013
man, what a gun room! (and ammo)!
I have two GI magazines with the tan followers, new in wrapper.
Since my first AR in the late 1980's, I have fired full auto's and semi's with magazines from the Vietnam-era (Colt 20-rd specifically), 20-rd and 30-rd through modern. I have experienced problems with import magazines and damaged mags but minimal issues with most other magazines. The most reliable have been GI issue aluminum mags. Even early P-Mags were consistently being over-inserted into mag-wells, becoming very difficult to remove (corrected by P-mags). Nice video sir.
I've shot M855A1 multiple times with the green follower mags and it never damaged my M4. Maybe I just never fired enough rounds with it, but I was never aware of the issues with that round or our mags. Interesting...
Thank you
Hell yah brother! Thank you
14:45 I think the EPM magazines could potentially be beneficial for longer/heavier 300BLK rounds that would do well with the higher presentation. I realize this video is from last year, but the EPM's can be found in the wild at charlies custom clones now, but they are a bit pricey(did not post link because youtube).
M855a1 has been loaded to normal level since at least 2012.
You can get ahold of the EPM mags now at some surplus stores around army bases
there is only 1 thief in the army. everyone else is just trying to get their shit back.
In Part 2, Chris will be discussing the development of the current style gas can which is the bane of homeowners and landscapers everywhere lol
As of the middle of 2019 did start seeing M855a1 in the Air Force
I picked up one of those "green follower" mags at a local gun show. Every single round I manually cycle scrapes the edge of the magazine housing. It actually scratches the bullet and will catch up on the bullet casing edge, where the opening starts.
I just can't trust it to run. The PMAGs I have don't do this at all.
Any update on the M855A1 video? Really looking forward to it!
I was an 11B from late '88 to early '95. When I arrived at my first unit, at 7th ID, they were just switching over to the M16A2. Later I joined a unit in Germany just as they were switching over the A2. In the six years that I was in a front line infantry unit, in a support unit for ADA, and then back in a front line unit I never once saw the magazine with the green follower, never even heard of them. The Army must have had a ton of the older ones so I understand it for the most part. But I wonder where the new green follower mags that shipped with each new M16A2 ended up when we got our brand new rifles in both the units I was in that transitioned. Armorer's probably kept those back :)
@@professionalschizo 🤣🤣🤣🤣 The Special Procurement Brigade
Patton's Aid Corps Acquirement Division
Great video
Did you ever made video about m855a1? I cant find it because I'm interested. As for the epm magazines I have 4 of them bought them online, they range from $15-$18 per mag.
i really enjoy your videos. you know exactly what you are talking about. people who buy the AR15 rifle become experts on it as soon as they bring it home. i have been collecting guns for 43 years and i would never try to be an expert on any firearm i own. i am still learning a lot if i watch any video about a subject that interests me. god save us from the manchild who knows it all.
In 2021 your ammo stash is a pile of gold in the background!
Not a stash, I go through 5 to 8K rounds per month
Just found your channel i was trying to do research on my non metal Israeli all black magazines.
The black followers should tell enough.
Really like you're info with the experience to back it up.
Thanks for sharing.
Incase your wondering my Israeli mags are some type polymer all black with the black followers with a series of round dots punched slightly in the sides..
No windows.
You have any im all ears..
Thanks again.
Orlite
@@gdmofo I went and dug them out and it says orlite England on the side lol
I took your advice about them and put modern followers and new springs in them to bring them up to date.
I live behind enemy lines and magazines are not available to us.
Thanks for sharing your info.
Great info
I have similar issues with PMAGS in my LR-308/AR-10.
Will you do a update video now that theres been more testing done both by you guys here and by the military?
I managed to get three EPMs at a pawnshop a couple of years ago.
can they coat the tips with soft metals to lessen the wear on the chambers?
Actually bud the first 30rnd mags were made by Colt back in about 1965/66 for the GAU5 rifles these had a more constant curve looked just like the Costa Mesa Armalite AR-180 30rnd mags not Sterling but the Costa Mesa mags some speculate that they were identical that Colt might have purchased the tooling to make these. Now due to Colts bad QC back then not all magwells were the same making the strait or constant curve mags not fit in all magwells. The 2nd gen aluminum 30rnd mags were marked on the side of the mag body with the number 62667 and it had a Emerald green or black plastic follower with the number 62667 painted in white paint as what we know as the modern 30rnd GI mag strait then curved mag circa 1969 one of the earliest an Adventurline production mag.
I heard that they actually reduced the pressure of M855A1 down to normal pressure levels, though I don't know if that is true or not.
In all my time in the Army, I've never came across a black tip 5.56. I'm familiar with it as an armor piecer, but never did I ever come across it's use in an FTX.
I have Okay Industries 30 round mags. Are all aluminum mags pretty much the same and quickly disposable?
What are the longer lasting magazines, if any exist?
So the new feed angle of the newer magazines makes it so the gun isn’t filed down by the tip of M855A1? Or is it still a problem?
I was still drawing black follower mags up till 2014 or so from the Armory (USMC) i assume these were simply gotten rid of on a retrograde basis. But considering how many id been issued prior to when i got out in 2016 they must not have been that bad.
Great videos. Where do you get all this information from?
Where’s that new video about that ammo at
Wound have been nice to cover the early mags as well.
I only have access to the modern ones
@@SmallArmsSolutions no vietnam era 20 rounders? really wouldve loved a video about that
Just compared my gi mag to my pmag the bullet doesnt point "up" as much as the pmag. Hmm i can see how that can be a problem.
How much is the tan mags with the blue follower worth today?Thanks
So for clarification, the M855s are fine on a 5,56 rifle? While the M855A1s are too hot of a load?
Can you load regular M855s in the brown improved performance mags and use them without causing any feeding issues? Or are the A1s proprietary for it? Just checking since I might get XM855s for my Ruger AR-556, and because I have both grey mags with tan followers and the brown ones
M855 is 5.56 nato round. I heard they work fine in the epm magazines but I haven't tried it yet. From what I heard they improved the round more so I dont know if it's still to hot or not.
I thought the original m-16 mags were 20 round angle based, NO?
Chris, you seem to know a lot about chamber pressures of these cartridges so correct me if I'm wrong but my understanding with chamber pressures is that .223 and 5.56 actually have similar chamber pressures the confusion of 5.56 supposedly being a higher pressure is because the military used to use EPVAT whereas civilian testing uses SAAMI and EPVAT shows higher numbers than SAAMI. Now that the military uses SCATP 5.56 shows around 55,000 PSI which is right around where .223 is.
It's stories like the one about the tan follower mags that are very, very discouraging.
Okay Industries, made in “hard hittin” New Britain, CT (where Stag Arms is made)
I got 3 of those mags all from different years.
Why does 20 round magazines not have a anti tilt follower in them?
Will you do a video about the MK318 ammo the usmc developed?
I will
9:43 Forget about the damage to the feed ramps on the upper & barrel extension, and look at the feed cone of the barrel in the picture to the left. Holy Crap! I'd bet the feed cone on the barrel in the right picture is equally gnarly, but it's just poorly lit & out of focus.
Stupid question, and I don't know because the new followers were after my time as a Grunt. Does the Magpul follower in the USGI Magazine correct the issue with the M855A1 height?
The PMag and the EPM do
Sir can green tipped be used in this brown magazines thank you
Yes
Now what about the Colt magazines that are longer than the 30 rounders all steel construction of the magazine body along with a pair of holes above the mag release cutout?
Not Colt mags or GI
@@SmallArmsSolutions Mine has the black follower and Colt AR-15 base plate and it looks like it could hold at least 35 rounds.
AR-18/AR-180 mag ?
Will all 566 ammo work with the enhanced performance magazines?
Not sure what you are asking. But the EPM was optimized for M855A1 but works perfectly with M193 and M855.
@@SmallArmsSolutions ok Thanks thats what I wanted to know
I can speak from experience the tan follower improved but still sucked. I just ran pmags on deployment because we couldn't trust issued mags
I love grey OK industries mags.
Me too.
The black Teflon coated Okay mags are great too.
All their 30s are awesome. I wish they'd do a 20 with a modern follower
Florida Man- I love the grey NHMTG mags. Bought a few of them a few years ago. Would never sell them. I don’t think you can get them anymore.
David Trumpy- The 20 round mags don’t need an anti tilt follower. You can find out about it online. The 20 round mags have a straight body unlike the 30 round mags which have a curved body. With the straight body, the rounds line up pretty good and don’t require an anti tilt follower.
I would hate to be the Army General that repeats the Vietnam era fiasco of ammo problems by sending troops into battle with the M855A1 and mags that may or may not work. Especially when the A1 ammo might be a solution to a non-problem.
The M855 A1 is destroying M4s and the Marines won't use it in their new M27 IARs for the same reason.
I don't get it, why not just change the material used in the original M855 core from steel to tungsten instead of having a whole tip on the M855A1? They got all the machining for it already, just change the material of the core so it's not right at the tip of the bullet which makes it more susceptible to damaging the barrel extension.
Because the m855a1 has a copper slug in the back instead of lead to help make it barrier blind, and give it altogether better terminal ballistics when the tungsten spear breaks off the head of the bullet causing instant fragmentation while the rear copper slug continues to penetrate deap . Also it had to do with making a "green round" that was lead free eco friendly supposedly.
The CF still uses mags with the black follower. It’s terrible.
Is okay industries really pulling out of the magazine market?
Yes
@@SmallArmsSolutions never thought id see the day lol, crazy stuff
Minor nitpick. I thought armor piercing rifle ammo was not restricted (only armor piercing pistol ammo was restricted).
I guess it doesn't matter much to me that much because I don't want to buy or shoot something that will f*** up the feed ramp in my gun, but I just want to be certain of the truth of the legal situation.
If there are pistols in rifle calibers, the ammo is illegal. There are 5.56mm pistols
It is hard to believe that the 855a1 ammunition would be developed and used with these issues......oh wait.....this is the US Military we are talking about. Although we do great things and are probably the best in the world, somehow issues like this seem to pop up consistently.
The M855A1 needs to go.. any terminal benefits are greatly out weighed by the many negatives in cost, pressure and the harsh nature of the round. If the Army wanted a more effective round they should have gone to the MK262. Virtually same it cost.
You know something is wrong when grunts want P mags over standard issue stuff
The M855 has more range and power at range compared the M193
No. Lol.
Algorithm
Aren't magpul mags not able to be inserted into the AR15 if the bolt is forward
I'm thinking those metal mags back in the army you could insert them any time, whether the bolt was forward or to the rear
Now I'm talkin the M16 a2 back in the 80s early 90s
I don't know anything about those m4's or anything of those newer ones
No, if anything magpul mags insert more easily on a closed bolt than full 30rd aluminum usgi mags.
M855a1 is a stupid solution. All these bandaids lol. The usmc were smart w their choice
Im tired of these matel toys...When are you going to show us your M14 collection?
😂🤣😁😆
What idiot decided to use that round? Seems like the accountants will tell you to change the specs to be more cost Effective for the whole of the system. *Shakes head*....