You know one of the collectables I most remember? The studs from the Lego games. There was something incredibly satisfying about the sound of the meter filling up to 100% at the end of a stage.
and the fact that you can't and aren't supposed to collect them all. It makes it so you don't need a guide to complete it, just go around smashing and having fun. Truly the best collectable
As a collectible, i love the Grubs in Hollow Knight. You get money, a charm and something else if you find them (so immediate reward, and not only if you find them all) but also, as you progress and you see them, you start to care for this tiny things. You hear them cry, and you want to rescue them. You are invested in finding collectibles because slowly you forget that they are collectibles, and you just want them to be reunited with their papa.
On top of that, there's an in world way to find the ones you're missing. After i was playing for around 20~ hours, i was getting a little tired of searching for them, just looking for a few stragglers. It was one of those ones where "i could just keep running in circles... or I could look up the wiki... but that feels like cheating" And then I ran into the collector, a boss in the game that I found moderatly difficult on my first run, but the reward gives you a map for "all of the grubs he knows about and couldn't get yet" I absolutely loved this diagetic way to 'look up' the locations without having to resort to the wiki, and it didn't feel like cheating either, because I had to beat the boss to get it, and at the time, i was only around 5 grubs short.
The payoff to the grubs is weirdly unsatisfying though. Did the elder grub eat them? Are they going to metamorphose and emerge as a new generation of moth people? When you dream nail them and it says “happy,” who is it speaking for? And what does the charm description mean about “the next stage of their life”? It really kills the mood of this otherwise unusually hopeful quest to realize at the end that you don’t know whether you did the right thing. Then again, Hollow Knight is a Dark Soul and we should have expected this.
10:43 I think banjo kazooie levels are akin to a theme park. They usually have a sort of circular layout with recognizable monuments, so you quickly understand the level as a whole as you explore it.
This is a great way to describe it, though I have always went with the term: "playground", because the best levels are designed around different set pieces and the best ones work mechanically like a slide, monkey bars or a swing.
I think a special note on collectables has to be given to DiscRoom. The enemies in the game? Circular saws which kill you. The levels in the game? Arcade-style things that inevitably end when you die, with a high score table for each one tied to how long you last. The only collectable in the game? The circular saws. Which you collect by being killed by them.
I'd like to add Hollow Knight to the list of games that use collectibles well. I personally just love exploring the Hallownest, and when I see a spike-filled tunnel my first thought is "Huh, I wonder what's at the end of that tunnel". Finding a neat little collectible at the end of said tunnel is really rewarding, especially since it gives an extrinsic incentive (usually by giving you new items, abilities or resources), but you definitely don't feel forced to hunt for every secret
Also, there are plenty of secrets that are in really obtuse locations that you wouldn't think of, but those ones are almost always just items that you can sell for geo and that don't matter for getting 100% completion. That way, the game can reward players for thinking outside of the box, while not requiring it.
the fact that the reward is not immediate makes it so much better to me. the anticipation of visiting the grubdad after saving many grubs and being showered with hundreds of geo all at once feels awesome edit: it also means that that geo is safe with them until you go claim it, so you don't risk immediately losing it upon death other edit: oops i meant to reply to the comment about grubs
Metroidvanias tend to be very good at collectibles in general. The point of Metroidvanias is exploration, so that's intrinsic motivation already handled, and it's pretty simple to realize it's a good idea to incentivize players by making the collectibles useful.
@@landis9767 The extrinsic reward of simply seeing them freed pushes you to save them in the moment, and the intrinsic value of getting showered in geo pushes you to go out and look for them.
I’m surprised you mentioned Pokémon without talking about it’s biggest problem; the tradition of releasing two versions of each game makes your ability to complete your collection is dependent on other people. It doesn’t matter how good or invested you are, if you can’t find that one person who’ll trade a certain Pokemon with you then you can’t 100% the game.
@@smashcuash Really? I thought the purpose of the games was to "catch 'em all" or to "BE THE VERY BEST, LIKE NO ONE EVER WAS". In fact, outside of the anime abusing the power of friendship (because Shonen), there's really never a point where any character is positively socializing. And even in the anime, the power of friendship is between the pokemon and the trainer, not between pokemon and pokemon or trainer and trainer. And I know I made the pokemon theme music joke, but even that drives home that it's about adventuring, not socializing. "I will travel across the land, searching far and wide, teaching pokemon to understand, the power that's inside". The closest that it gets is "Oh you're my best friend" and "there's no better team" but even then, those drive home the bond between pokemon and trainer.
finally someone appreciating a short hike! the game’s beautiful so it’s perfect for background footage, plus the soundtrack is so welcoming and well-done.
I LOVED DK64 as a kid. Recently I tried to replay it as an adult, for nostalgia’s sake, and it was more frustrating than I remember. Either I have less patience or now I just used to the streamlined game design of modern games.
This is the first time I heard of someone hating the game. I thought everyone loved it. I think Donkey Kong 64 is great game too. Personally I completely disagree with this guy's video.
Sonic is definitely meant to explore. Sonic Heroes is another good example IMO. I think the issue with Sonic Advance is the small screen otherwise projecting different paths would be notably easier.
Mario odyssey is my favorite game and I think for the most part they do well with the collectibles..... but shoutouts to those three purple coins in sand kingdom that are just hanging off the edge at some random part of the largest kingdom in the game
Love Mario odyssey. My favorite Mario game as well and I have basically played em all. Moving exploring is just a joy and, The way the game wraps it's wide variety of activities all over the map and doesn't take you out and create really atmospheric locations that feel like they have a sense of culture and place. While interspersing more linear challenges throughout .
I'm surprised that Ape Escape wasn't on here. Collecting the monekys using all gadgets and player knowledge, and how each monkey protests a unique challenge. In Ape Escape 3 each monkey had a something extra tied to it. And then also eventually playing the Metal Gear Solid mini game (which got me into the metal gear series)
That's true, you can literally blind rush your way and get the monkeys you need to clear each stage, the game doesn't even force you to get certain monkeys, you just catch the ones you wanna. Also there's a lot of depth in understanding how every monkey behaves and what's the best strategy to actually catch them, thing like blue pants are faster and get scared easily or red pant are agressive and will confront u.
@@deoxxys Agreed. Wish they would do an Ape Escape Trilogy and release it on PC at least (obviously they would release it on Playstation as its the series home console). Would be nice to have on Xbox or Switch but Im not gonna hold my breath on that one...
A Short Hike was an absolute masterclass in collectibles. I've never felt so immediately compelled to 100% than I did in that game. The golden feathers just make the game feel more exciting with each new one.
For me the collectibles in A Short Hike was talking to every NPC until they didnt have any more lines to say. And that one NPC made exhausting his lines quite difficult. A Short Hike is one of my favorite games ever. I have never felt the way I felt playing that game with any other title. An overlooked gem in my opinion.
Not only for going for those A ranks on every stage on all 5 missions (some are sucks than the others), you being forced to do grinding for those Chao Garden emblems.
I just played Mario Sunshine for the first time recently, and while a lot of people complain about its controls and such, my least favorite thing about the game was actually its condition for unlocking the final level. For someone who just wants to beat the game and not 100% it, that makes all the Delfino shines (not to mention the blue coins) completely useless. On a different note, I love collecting all of the spheres in Kirby's Return to Dreamland. They're all placed pretty well, and there are some really good incentives for collecting them. Plus that game is just fun to play.
Sunshine has a big difficulty spike on the later levels and all of those "classic" Fludd free levels. The Blue coins however were pure bull. Mario games pride themselves in everything being signposted or have a clue showing you where to go to find what you need. There are no clues to blue coins, you just randomly check every spot, kill every enemy and pound the ground in random places to hope you get lucky, it's seems bizarre if you compare the red coins have structure and clarity to them, then the blue coins are just complete random bull.
I genuinely cannot believe the complete LACK of reward for anything in Mario Sunshine. 64 doesn't need a reward-- every single Star (well, with the exception of one) _can_ contribute to a normal, 70-star playthrough of the game. Even if you NEVER get, say... Tricky Triangles in Rainbow Ride, it doesn't matter, because you know that theoretically you could, and you know the purpose of doing so. But what about, say... the poison river in Sunshine? It does not serve a purpose. If you don't get it, you lose nothing. If you get it, you gain nothing. And some of the levels are SO hard without feeling like true tests of your skill. Pachinko level doesn't feel like "I want to overcome this because I want to test my skills", it's just frustration that I've only seen, say, streamers or Let's Players do for the sake of showing it off.
The issues with Mario Sunshine's controls are, ironically, that *they are too good.* That means your fingers sliding just a tiny bit can make you reset the whole level due to starting a dash on the wrong direction, which isn't a thing on other Mario games. Spin jumps is a very cool technique who rewards your mastery but i (and many people as well) would rather prefer realistic, controlable momentum on my 3D platformer. And that's why I consider Sunshine a 7.5/10 in a franchise full of 8.5-9.5/10 games.
The worst part is that most of the level designs & missions in Sunshine are even more obnoxious & repetitive and combined with forced completing 7 main missions, it makes the game alot more frustrating and tedious than in 64.
One thing I do like about Psychonauts collectables are the memory vaults. Tying your understanding of the person the level is based on to exploration is a really great idea. Shame those are the most limited collectibles, would love some more optional lore.
My favorite collectibles are the books and news papers from the trails series. They have full ass storys in them. Short and long, short storys are usually 3 to a collection and 10 to 20 mins worth, but long ones are like 14 chapters and each chapter is a collectible, and theyre up to 3 hours when done in audiobook. That is super high effort collectible imo.
Love the "A Short Hike" music. Playing that game right now and it's just so nice and wholesome, very charming world and dialogue. On sale on Switch rn too!
Nobody seems talk about books in Skyrim and magazines in Fallout (3,4,New Vegas) there. They fit into the game world itself, they fit into game itself, they're ok not to be collected, they're like pressent boxes with surprises when they're found.
I was expecting to hear how Yooka-Laylee failed to understand Banjo-Kazooie’s Musical Notes by hiding it’s equivalent in a way similar to Crash 4’s crates. But the same concept was explained throughout the video anyway.
Genshin Impact also does collectibles well. In both the Mondstadt and Liyue areas, there are numerous timer challenges, "follow this blue spirte" seelie statues, beautiful vantage points, and there's probably at least 1000 treasure chests across the entire map (so far! More of the world has yet to be revealed). And, they all provide a mixture of intrinsic and extrinsic motivation. With a huge map, the purpose is to just explore, see what's around, climb everything, etc. Seelies are a lovely little distraction where you follow a little blue spirit for a bit, timer challenges are fun challenges (except when enemies spawn to freeze you), and chests are hidden in easily-overlooked areas as well as behind unmarked challenges - deciphering a poem, setting some torches ablaze, etc. The rewards from these serve as an extrinsic reward to doing something that's generally already intrinsically fun and engaging. At the same time, they're all incredibly optional. Sure, they give you money, things to enhance stuff with, etc., but the game is based around the stories found in quests, which guide you on the map from point to point. The only thing that you simply cannot get without completing challenges, following seelie, and opening chests... are achievements (and none of those achievements require 100%, either). And even for the achievement hunters and completionists, after doing a number of quests to help out the citizens of Mondstadt or Liyue, you unlock a treasure compass, which points you to nearby treasure chests - since there's so many of them, it's easy to miss a few.
what about A Hat in Time with how well its oriented to exploring to get Yarns and Relics, Pons work well to keep you tracking from place to place and its great there isn't a "get all Pons" requirement and are just a tool to get the player to explore also what about the other hand Yooka-Laylee, while its oriented to exploring, there isn't really something that gives you tracking on where to go next or what to do, just wander aimlessly until you find something, and that is on top of the needle in haystack problems it has, with Feathers and collectibles so hidden its absurd, like the crystal skulls that on top of being so hidden do absolutely nothing which makes you even question yourself for bothering exploring so much
I was anticipating Hat in Time to be featured in the video, but this channel has shown the game I adore plenty of times... except for the DLC? -- Who analyzes the design of Artic Cruise, Nyakuza Metro or even Death Wish?
Yeah exactly, as much as Yooka Laylee wanted to be the successor to Banjo and classic collection games of that nature, Hat in Time is so much more well-designed. YL just wasn't for for me at all, but i LOVED Hat in Time.
I don't like collectathons or 3d platformers in general but i loved a Hat in Time. It could be even better though, the hats are too contextual and pons become worthless pretty fast.
AHiT has a pretty major problem with its collectibles, actually-- the yarn balls aren't tracked anywhere. While this isn't an issue from a gameplay perspective, since you don't need anywhere NEAR all of them, it's a big flaw in general collectible design.
@@svenbtb YLaylee suffered the problem that later Rare games had, with levels too big and too much backtracking. It worked so well in BKazooie since the levels were a perfect size and collectable amount, they didn't wear out their welcome and each was well designed and not too difficult to find. Unlike BTooie which made the levels bigger and DK64 which added 5 characters worth of collectables with no easy way to swap characters.
That's probably why Ape Escape is so satisfying. The monkeys feel like enemies rather than collectibles so you don't really notice they're collectibles.
The Knick-knackatory side quest in the Dragon Quest 5 remakes deserve a mention. It's a purely intrinsic quest that consist of collecting rare souvenirs for all around the world, and exposing them on a Museum. It's pretty extensive too, with way to upgrade and clean items. While some of the items you get may be of value (most notably an infinite source of Yggdrasil Leaf), most of the items are absolutely useless. It's just a reward for exploring the game and returning to old locations. The best thing is that it's not a single linear subquests, but a multitude of smaller goals, so you can take the quest any way you want. Anytime you need to take a break for the actions, you can look around for Knick Knacks in previously visited places.
I know it's just cause I'm replaying bug fables rn, but I had the same thought I love bug fables so much, I try and collect everything just so I can spend more time playing it I guess that would be intrinsic motivation, at least on my part
15:38 Yeeeeeeeah, I will always and forever hold up the Sonic Advance series as a fantastic and heavily underrated continuation of the 2D Sonic gameplay, but even I will not hesitate to admit that Advance 2's Chaos Emeralds were absolutely horrendous, even with a guide.
Another incentive is console achievements, when they are not incredibly strict. For example "find all Koroko seeds in BotW" would not be a good achievement, because it is too demanding. But achievements are great as an incentive!
“Find all Korok seeds” sounds a lot like Minecraft’s How Did We Get Here advancement. Nobody does it, but it’s there in case you want to flex (or run the All Advancements speedrun category, which last I checked takes at least 24 hours)
That example reminds me of the The Stanley Parable achievement that requires you to sit in a room for an ungodly amount of hours and just stare straight ahead and do nothing at all.
Me and my brother used to hunt trophies all the time on PS3, even to the point of renting games specifically to platinum them! (including the Hannah Montana game, no kidding) - I just wish the points you for for trophies could be used to redeem exclusive outfits in games or themes for the console. Maybe even small discounts?
@@JayAreAitch I disagree: it gives an incentive for players to approach new parts of the game that they wouldn’t typically play, and potentially find new things they enjoy, whether it be modes or playstyles. They’re completely optional remember.
Thank you. Crash 4’s completion system is basically the new Donkey Kong 64. The over abundance of collectibles with the use of artificial padding just makes 100% the game feel like absolute torture.
Every time I think of collectables I think of Lego Games. Lego Games have at least 4 different collectibles per game. The four staples are Gold Bricks, Red Bricks, Minikits, and Character tokens, two of which (Red Bricks and Characters) are then locked behind an in-game paywall (that is, buying them with in-game currency. No Microtransactions involved) once you collect them. Each of them serves a different purpose. Gold Bricks unlock a special bonus level (or a stud fountain depending on the game), each Red Brick unlocks an extra, some of which are useful (collectible detectors (yes that includes a detector for Red Bricks themselves. Yes it is annoying when you find that one last) and currency multipliers) and some of which are silly (making the floor really slippery or giving every character groucho marx glasses), Minikits unlock a special Lego Build that you can visit in a gallery, sort of like a photo gallery but with Lego Models. There's five to ten minikits in each level depending on the game. Finally, character tokens unlock characters, all of which have different abilities and powers (later games start having a lot of power overlap because of the large amount of characters but whatever) that will help you solve puzzles in order to unlock other collectibles. And of course a lot of games have their own unique collectables such as "characters in peril" which usually unlocks the character that is in peril (such as Stan Lee in Lego Marvel Superheroes) as a playable character.
Something else I think would be great to discuss in a Part 2, is the idea of collectibles having a "purpose". Take currencies, for example: In many early games, especially side-scrollers like Super Mario and Sonic the Hedgehog, Coins/Rings were just a means of earning 1-UPs or improving your score. In Sonic's case, Rings were also tied directly to the health system; get hit, and you lose ALL your Rings, get hit when you don't have Rings, lose a life. Simple. In Sonic Unleashed, however, the role of Rings was expanded slightly. Since the premise of the game is a globe-trotting adventure, Rings could also be used as currency at various shops in the world, so you could buy things like souvenirs for the Gallery, like concept art and music tracks, and food, which give EXP when consumed, increasing your stats. However, the rules of Ring collection still apply (this *is* still a Sonic game, after all), so while the amount of Rings available in a given stage are much bigger, you still need to be careful not to lose it all, especially in the late-game. Thankfully, this only applies to the Daytime stages, since the Nighttime ones use a health-bar (that can be filled by grabbing Rings) instead. Of course, Mario Odyssey does something similar with Coins, with the added caveat of eliminating lives entirely.
DQXI's mini medal hunt really motivates exploring every single dungeon, city, etc you come across and break all pots and barrels and check all closets. Also the bookcases which have recipes for crafting equiipment (which are generally stronger than shop found goodies) are mixed in with lore, which was extremely motivating for me to read up on all the world-building that the team had done!
Lovely video! Especially glad to see A short Hike referenced and its music used for your outro; one of the most delightful games I've played in the last year. Botw, odyssey, sonic advance 2, all very different when it comes to what the game wants from you. Super good video!
One great thing about Celeste's collectables is that it is totally possible to get 100% just playing through each level 1 time(and get it's secret collectibles on the second playthrough of each level) and if you miss a couple it will tell you how many and allow you to see which checkpoint you missed them on for strawberries, so you can easily go back for them. So, Celeste not only sets up it's intrinsic collectables well, it also makes collecting them no more frustrating than necessary. Even in cases where it definitely didn't have to go to that effort(the chapter 7 crystal heart remembers your progress on the gems even after you beat the stage) For the collectables that aren't noted on the map(Crystal hearts and b-side tapes) the game does a decent job at letting you know they exist. One clever thing chapter 1 does is that it has a strawberry right next to the crystal heart puzzle, so if you go through the level without finding that puzzle you'll be missing a strawberry. And if you go back and try to find that berry, eventually you'll find the puzzle along with it. The b-side tape's location is very clearly signaled and that signal is also next to a berry so you'll probably find that too if you look for all the berries. Chapter 3 also does this very well, with the b-side tape being in an exceedingly obvious place and the crystal heart just requires a basic understanding of how that section of the game works and finding the fairly obvious spot where the path is blocked by something you need to clear. Chapter 4's crystal heart is somewhat findable for the adventurous. And, if you do miss those hearts, you are probably going to find one of the heart pieces in chapter 7.
5:35 It kinda is though. The game is not a lot tougher, even easier at times since Luigi jumps higher. And after completing the game as Luigi, you get to revisit the place where the game begins in a quite lame purple coins level. Mario Galaxy 2 would have been a way better example. After collecting 120 stars, you get the green star quest, hidden stars in each level. Some of them are more cleverly hidden than others, but it's a lot of fun. And after finding every 120 of them, you unlock a super-hard, final galaxy, one of the hardest challenges ever put in a Mario game, and it's soo rewarding to finish it.
Huge Crash fan here, and I really appreciate your critique of Crash 4, as I similarly felt the wearying amount of collectibles. I would love to see a Design Doc on fun challenge versus frustrating challenge. Despite having every predisposition toward wanting to love Crash 4 and having intimate knowledge of Crash’s moves and physics, I found the platforming challenges of Crash 4 more frustrating than fun - and I even enjoyed N. Sane Trilogy’s harder Crash 1! I chalk it up to many obstacles being unfair by way of not being telegraphed enough (in many cases it seemed like you had to die to something in order to know to avoid it), but I would love to see a Design Doc analyzing that phenomenon. This has become one of my favorite channels - keep up the great work!
Not sure how many people know this, but if you 100% Super Mario Galaxy's Luigi mode, you get one final level: home. Accessible to both bros, with a picture that gets saved to the original Wii for each. I used to do the jigsaw puzzle for them in the photo editor channel for ages. Was really sad that channel got removed for the Wii U.
My favorite type of rewards are lore. I’m extrinsically motivated in games; never cared much for collectibles that don’t offer something interesting. Lore and backstory for the game’s world or characters can be more meaningful and satisfying because it leaves the player with something to think about long after the game is over. For example, collecting a shine sprite may give you a brief moment of happiness, but discovering that Peter Parker’s parents were secret spies because you found a backpack on the docks of Manhattan holds far more emotion. God of War 4 is a great example; that game loves giving the player collectibles in the form of lore markers and stories from Mimir that tell you things about their world you would never find out via the main story, and has a lot of hints at what the story may be for future games.
I feel constantly intrinsically motivated to find all collectables, even if it’s just for the feeling of slowly completing something, or even if I don’t get anything out of it. I’ve even collected every block in Minecraft and placed it in a chest just because i love having completed sets
psychonauts is my favorite game and i've collected every single figment in the game multiple times and youre right theyre really hard to see sometimes and they can be really frustrating (especially during the race in millas dance party) but for some reason theyre also really satisfying to collect. honestly though the other collectables in the game (emotional baggage, scavenger hunt items, vaults, and brains) are definitely better and have more of a reward to them like more mental health and fun secrets
I absolutely love the collectibles system in the LEGO games. You can buy tools to help you find them, and it rewards buying characters because you need specific types of characters to find some of them.
I like how in Kirby and the forgotten land, they would give you some lore if you collect a figurine. Which figurine you get is random, except for the special ones. You would have to do a specific task to get those.
I recently decided to replay Sleeping Dogs and try to 100% it. It's got quite a few collectibles, with lockboxes, shrines, cameras and jade statues, each providing different benefits. The lockboxes contain money, and sometimes unlock additional rewards. The cameras are located at hangouts where you first need to beat up some thugs and then hack the camera. You then have to catch the dealer through a video feed at your home and then you gain points which you can spend to level up Wei's police skills. Similarly, the jade statues can be returned to Sifu Kwok to gain powerful attack prompts. Praying at the shrines recovers any health Wei lost, and praying at 5 health shrines gives Wei a 10% increase in health. Pray at all 50 and Wei's health doubles. Everything has an instant reward and a long term reward, so that's a pretty useful trick in my opinion. Plus, you usually have to beat up thugs to get to these collectibles, and the combat is really fun.
Something I think you could've commented on are the tools to help collect on BOTW, some of which are locked behind the DLC (released after people had already played a lot, and only for who paid). Yeah, the locator thing that beeps near shrines is VERY helpful, and the ability to add items to it is incredibly creative and useful. But things like the Korok Mask means you need to buy it, find it, and be using it (weak mask that stops you from using other helpful hats) to have slight help in locating the korok seeds. Another tool that's very helpful, but locked behind the DLC, is the one that marks everywhere you have transversed in the map. It helps a lot to see where you have already looked for the collectable, but "only" tracks 200h, which means when that DLC released, some people had already missed some of the track, and also when you are in late game looking for the last things, you've probably already lost the track of many places you have already explored too. A last tool, that is not DLC, isn't the biggest but is very usefull is the pins you can set with different drawings in the map. For me this system has two big problems: The first being that 100 pins quickly becomes not enough, even when you don't mark everything you can. The second problem, for me, is the drawings of the pins not being the most clear/useful; Yeah, the sword one is problably to mark where you can get a good sword, but most people won't care about marking that, so they might use it to mark something like the location of a Lynel, but then it becomes unclear what each mark is being used for, and not enought variety of drawings.
I just thought of tokens in Pac man world 2. Sometimes they were a serious pain to find. Other times they were pretty easy. And the more you collected, the more arcade games unlocked in the arcade in level 0. Real world arcade games. And the final reward was Mrs. Pac man. I never actually found enough to get it, but I blame the levels on ghost island for that
I can never collect them all due to it being difficult. I usually stop once I unlock the art museum in PAC-Village. Maybe if a newer port came with Achievements/trophies on a certain console, I’d be more motivated to attempt it. But whatever, PacMan World 2 is the best game of the trilogy.
As a game developer. From this video I gathered that if I want my players to actively want to get collectibles, I need to place them with purpose. I need some form of a guide to help players keep track of collectibles. And i need the collectibles to feel like a reward. Thanks design doc. Love your videos.
I think the best collectables are the ones that fill an in-game encyclopaedia. Many games, especially RPGs, have encyclopaedias which give the players more details about items, monsters, locations, etc. It's an organic way of learning about the world and shows progress to the player, sometimes even giving hints of areas that are unexplored.
Ghost of Tsushima was one of my favorite games of 2020, but it had a lot of collectables that ranged from locations, flags and cosmetics. Even though I love exploring the world, I wouldn't go out of my way to carefully search for flags or outfits, but the games wind guidance system was really well done. Instead of just drawing a line or putting a circle where an item was hidden, the wind would just blow in the direction of the closest thing you wanted, and anything you can find or discover was select-able. So instead of ignoring them, finding all the hidden flags became a fun diversion of searching thanks to being simply guided by the wind, it didn't hold my hand, but it also didn't give me no idea where to look, either.
For DK64, I definitely have some nostalgia goggles, but when I play through I'm always pleased at how the collectibles are segmented. Usually I basically play through the stage once per character, and because I like the world design and atmosphere so much, it's fun to see the same place through a different lens, or to have individual areas and challenges for each character. Frantic Factory was really good at having the same general layout, but having a lot of specific areas and challenges for each character. But I can definitely see why that game isn't for everyone. Fungi Forest especially was really hard to navigate sometimes, even though I thought it was a really cool level. I would always be left with 5 or so colored bananas that I just couldn't find.
I think Mario 3D world handled its collectables really well. It has three separate collectables: green stars (three per level), stamps (1 per level) and golden flagpoles (1 per level). Green stars are the only ones you actually have to collect, since you need a set amount of them to enter each world's Castle (which are required to beat in order to progress to the next world). Finding them isn't hard, but they each present a fun little challenge, and you'll rarely need to backtrack to get more stars, since the star limits to enter castle are really low, and the Captain Toad and Mystery House levels practically shower you with them. stamps are hiden in levels and just kind of cute, since they each have a different character or enemy on them, making them pretty fun to collect. the golden flagpole requires you to beat the level while reaching the tip of the flag, which a nice little challenge, and great for bragging rights in Multiplayer, which is how the game is best experienced. Overall, though these many collectables seem like a lot, they are pretty fun and natural to collect, and make the game a joy to 100% (also you need all of the collectables to reach champion's road)
Subbed. I'm really loving your platformer-focused content on this channel in particular. Nice to see such in-depth analysis for something that most players merely feel without giving it much overt thought. A+.
I do like how Ape Escape sort of flips the script on your usual collectathon. Instead of the apes being your reward after some kind of challenge, they ARE the challenge and everything else in between is typically your down time/ reward after managing to catch them which is satisfying in its own right. Special shoutouts go to the coins you collect throughout the game that you can exchange to get things like concept art, lore books, these really interesting one shot comic strips and, most importantly, Mesal Gear Solid ;)
My favorite intrinsically-motivated collectibles are the ones you see in randomizers. I've been playing Ocarina of Time randomized, but the same is true for other randomized games: since all the item locations are shuffled, _anything_ could be _anywhere,_ encouraging you to go after everything just in case this random chest has the crucial unlock you need to access the next part of the game, often without items the game would otherwise expect you to have for this area, producing novel puzzles each time where you have to solve the same puzzle with a different toolkit. For the OoT randomizer in particular, I quite enjoy the "Triforce Hunt" mode, where once you collect a certain number of triforce pieces the game immediately ends, no need to go through the slog of beating the final boss with all the unlocks in the game every single time.
collecting things in and of itself is fun. or rather, working towards a completion in and of itself is fun. doesn't necessarily need additional motivation, but of course that does make for a more engaging experience. some sort of visualization of the player's progress of a *realistically completable* collection is generally sufficient. that is why procedurally generated "collectibles" don't work. it's essential for collectibles to belong to a finite set.
@@hi-i-am-atan generally the point of proc gen is to generate content during runtime because you want a very large quantity of it, but I guess you can use it to generate a small set of collectibles, too, if that's what you're suggesting. however players are likely to perceive a distinct difference between a set of generated and a set of handcrafted/placed collectibles.
Great video! I'm not a completionist, so I've never put too much thought into collectibles, but I like how you broke it down. I also love the irony that gamification is often used to create chores for engaging - so the idea of gamifying a microcosm in game...
I like how the new Tomb Raider reboot games did collectables, as they sorta have two destinct "stages" for finding them... Stage one is just running around the games open areas as soon as you get to them, looking for all of them right away, but if you get stuck and have a few you simply can't find, you have the option to go a little further in the story, often exploring optional challenge tombs, and you will likely stumble on the areas treasure maps at some point, which points out where you need to go to find them, but still leaves HOW to get to them up to the player. One of the biggest offenders for being hard to find are the GPS caches, as they are tiny, and even when you unlock the ability to see collectables through walls and terrain, it's still very easy to overlook the golden glow they give off, so i always find myself missing 2 or 3 in each area, so instead of looking for them, i end up looking for the often out of the way, but easier to find treasure map for the area instead
@@dacienfelice2993 But think about it, Ring Fit could be an example of a REAL LIFE "go back to the beginning of the game and feel OP" moment! Get all the collectables, go back to stage one and (hopefully) smash through it with your buffed up bod!
@@EzloMinish True, and I might try that, there are a few things I missed I think, but I like collecting as I go, it keeps me engaged longer, so I end up exercusing longer.
I like the Garibs from Glover, they function as score pickups that also give health and lives. finding all in a world will unlock a bonus stage for even more lives completing all the stages in the game unlocks an in game cheat list, if you can't find some in a level you can search for them in easy mode just by holding a button!
Banjo Kazooie 1 was amazing because the collectibles were grouped together such as the music notes. It felt like crumbs leading to other collectibles or points of interest.
I’d like to add Ori Will of the wisps to the list, I know it has been a year but for a Metroidvainia it was really well done. It was really fun to find them all in the first and second game with all the challenges with each one, and they were optional but really help-full. It was enough for me to have fun collecting every one after I beat the game.
I really love Alice: Madness Returns collectibles. The Memories give story bits, and are shaped differently for each of the character that is speaking, some are just for flavor, some are actual foreshadowing of the twist in the end, and most are related to where they are found. The Bottles unlock concept art, character and enemy profiles. The Snouts unlock new paths and unveil other collectibles. The Radula Rooms provide challenges and give you a health boost at the end. And the teeth are used to upgrade weapons, are literally everywhere and make a really good noise when you pick them up. It definitely sounds like a lot, but they're so well placed and fit in so well with the platforming and other mechanics that it is really pleasurable to collect them, even if they're all optional.
Thank you for talking about Sonic Advance 2. I resorted to using a guide as a kid and I used to feel guilty about it until I realized it was just bad game design! One collectible system I’ve always felt mixed about are the Kinstones in The Legend of Zelda: The Minish Cap. On one hand, it’s a really interesting concept how each Kinstone fusion permanently changes the world in a surprise way. It might unlock a secret area, cause an NPC to move to a new house or a new shop to appear, or spawn a special enemy that yields tons of Rupees when slayed. It really makes the world feel more complete and real, and it feels great to get a new batch of Kinstones and see what you’ll get when fusing them. On the other hand, Kinstone spawns are mostly random, and some of the rarer ones can take forever to grind out. You do get some from chests but otherwise have to cut a ton of grass, kill a bunch of enemies, and eat a lot of bread if you’re going for a complete run. It’s a unique system that unfortunately falls short due to the grind it requires, and I wish Kinstones had been tackled differently because they could’ve ended up being something amazing.
The collectible that never gets old for me are the figurines in Wind Waker's Nintendo Gallery. No matter how many times I play that game, I always have to complete it. Like you said, it's more about recording your adventure than anything, but the method of collecting them is the perfect balance of risk vs. reward. Similar to the Tattle Log in Paper Mario and Paper Mario TTYD, you have to risk your characters safety to record your journey. So fun!
My favorite solution to the 'needle in a haystack' problem is Banjo-Kazooie's results screen. Other people may argue that it's too simple of a solution, brings gameplay to a total halt, takes you out of the experience to read a checklist, etc. All good points - but to me, it's simple and gets straight to the point. I'd argue that the limited level size is the reason why you don't need a hint system - unless you're like me in video games, in which you just have the worst luck and you just can't find that one thing that everybody else can find.
This was a really interesting video, and very helpful. I'm an independent game developer. My first game is, in part, a 3D collect-a-thon and one of my main design goals is to create a deep and enjoyable movement system. To support this goal, there's a couple of different collectibles. Small, numerous "coins" and big, hard-to-get "stars" are the main collectibles, with "coins" being used as currency and "stars" being the keys to story progression. Obviously I'm not gonna call them coins and stars because coins and stars are Mario's collectibles, but I don't like to talk too much about the artistic design of the game on public forums because if I say my game is about a chicken collecting kernels of corn and golden eggs, then I run the risk of someone else making a game about a chicken collecting kernels of corn and golden eggs. Anyway, the point I'm trying to make is that I deeply appreciate the hard work you put into this thoughtful analysis of a common game design tool. It's interesting to the game player side of me and useful to the game maker side of me.
The platinum time relics were the last staw on Crash 4 for me and my friend, we spent so many hours getting all the gems and completing all the flashback tapes and then couldn't even get the platinum relic on the first level, at some point you just get burnt out and it does just become a chore rather than fun.
Thank you for giving Banjo-Kazooie the respect it deserves, as refining the Mario 64 formula. One of my favorite collectables in gaming are the clue bottles from Sly 2. They're only in the hub world (so no need to worry about having to replay missions, like in the first game), they make a nice clinking sound to hint at where they are, and give you the combination to a safe with a new move. Plus, they have a very satisfying breaking sound when collected.
Speaking of collectibles: Me and my brother used to hunt trophies all the time on PS3, even to the point of renting games specifically to platinum them! (including the Hannah Montana game, no kidding) - I just wish the points you for for trophies could be used to redeem exclusive outfits in games or themes for the console. Maybe even small discounts?
Astro Bot Rescue Mission had some good collectibles. First are the missing bots, 5-6 is each stages that you rescue and add to your ship where you can see them walk around. Each world does have a required amount of bots rescued to unlock, but it doesn't need 100%. Next are the chameleons, 1 in each stage, which each unlock an optional challenge stage. The final part is the claw minigame, when you collect coins you can use them to play a claw minigame, getting special diorama pieces for your ship that you can play around with. Astro's Playroom also has a bunch of collectibles which serve more like easter-eggs.
I love how Paper Mario did this. They just, had some magical dude you pay coins to, and they look into their crystal ball, and give you pretty nice hints to where the collectibles are. They also do this, to help you progress story, if you're stuck.
I loved the djinn in Golden Sun. You encountered a few through the story, but most were hidden behind puzzles or exploration. The player could equip the djinn on characters however they wanted, mixing elements to unlock new spells or stacking elements to cast the most powerful versions of basic spells. The more you find, the more powerful you are for the final battle, but Golden Sun 2 lets you import your data from the first game, so all those djinn you found power you up in the next game, too
I believe we can count souls in Aria of Sorrow and Dawn of Sorrow as collectibles, and also demons in Devil Survivor series. Those collectibles are optional and game can be completed without getting all of them but they give impact on gameplay. Souls give alternate attack or ability for Soma while demons give ally to aid battles in Devil Survivor.
I feel like the "of Sorrow" brand of Metroidvania (Aria of Sorrow, Dawn of Sorrow, and Bloodstained) have the best mix of intrinsic and extrinsic motivators when it comes to their collectibles. There's still the standard HP and MP max upgrades, but each enemy having a special ability that you can get - with bosses always giving theirs - is a great combination of motivators. You want to collect the stuff the normal enemies give because it's a new toy to play with that may end up having a cool synergy with something else, while the bosses predominantly represent progression abilities, though that's not always the case, and even those that are progression based, usually have utility outside of just progression, making fiddling around with each option that much more rewarding.
I agree with this, but I do need to make a minor correction. Not all of the bosses guarantee their soul/shard drops, just the ones that can only be killed once per playthrough. If they appear as a regular enemy later on, they won't drop their ability when defeated as a boss. For example, you won't get a bosses' soul in Aria of Sorrow until boss 5 (the Headhunter), as the other 4 are encountered as regular enemies in later areas.
night in the woods has a good intrinsic collectible system! mae has a journal to write down her thoughts, and by going out of your way to talk to people or do certain things, you can fill out the notebook. you do have to do another playthrough of the game to get everything tho
I think my favorite collectables are Bobbleheads from Fallout 3. They felt unique, rewarded you with a stat boost, and were placed in interesting locations making them fun to search for.
I love the Kodamas in Nioh, they are fun to find, not too numerous and useful but optional (they let you customise item drops a bit) ... also they are cute! ^^
Every time you bash Rayman 1, a wide grin spreads on my face. I grew up with that game and I love it to bits, and hearing your (legitimate!) concerns about it are great, in a sort of The Roast of Rayman 1 type of way. I understand completely how you feel, and although I don't agree (i.e. I personally think it's great fun to try and figure out where the hell all the Cages are, and also that some of that design lends itself to a sort of 'puzzle game' type gameplay loop), I can totally see how incorporating your point of view in my own thoughts about game designs are a healthy way to think about solving the problems that creating a game presents for its desginers.
I love collecting virtual items, so DK 64 was actually one of my favorite collectible systems! The intrinsic motivation kept me at it, and as you mention, each item unlocks its own particular set of things. With only a few exceptions, I didn't find it hard to find the collectibles for each ape, largely because they're not quite random, but rather on a path to a golden banana for that Kong, with a few slightly off the path to keep you on your toes. For the most part, if you're missing a collectible for someone, you can backtrack along that path and use first person view to look around the area, or just go after a different Kong's collectibles until you find the ones you missed, in their ghostly un-pick-upable form for that Kong. You also usually can't get every collectible for each Kong right away, since some are locked behind abilities you have yet to get in that level or sub-areas within the level, so you're usually good if you collected everything you saw and your number ends in a 5 or a 0, again with only a few exceptions. What I am surprised you didn't mention was the Arkham games, although you did include a clip of them at the very end. The Riddler trophies are strewn evenly throughout nearly every area in the game (except for the Batcave, which makes sense story-wise), and are either out in the open in a tricky spot, behind an obstacle that requires a certain gadget, or in some sort of puzzle. Collecting some of them isn't hard at all, which is just enough to start the Riddler storyline, and completing the storyline doesn't require 100% of the collectibles (I think the first game might be an exception there). Collecting them gives you interesting dialogue as the Riddler gets increasingly less cocky and more nervous at your skill, which is sort of a meta-reward for the player. It also unlocks new Riddler areas in the later games, so you technically get bonus areas! Batman's detective vision helps spot them if you're in the same area, and you can get a map of the collectibles in the first game, and interrogate his goons to add a selection of them to your map in the later ones. And, of course, it's all completely optional to the main storyline! All of that is why I was sure you were going to discuss it within this video, but of course you still had a very thorough and informative discussion without it.
I think Rare platformers and the Arkham games have a really similar comparison. Banjo Kazooie and Arkham Assylum are tightly designed games with limited backtracking and enough collectables to be an enjoyable side activity. DK64 and Arkham City on the other hand, are just massive sprawling levels and the sheer quantity of collectables means it takes more than twice as long to 100% everything than to just complete the game, collecting soon becomes chore like as they are no longer a side activity if you want to collect them all. They become the focus of the game, disrupting the narrative and forcing you to stop over and over to make sure you haven't missed all the collectables before moving on to another level.
@@cattysplat That makes perfect sense, and I suppose it comes down to your playstyle. I always hunt down every collectible I can before progressing the story, so I was never overwhelmed by the amount, especially on future playthroughs, but I can definitely see how it would be overwhelming to the average player!
Legacy of Kain Soul Reaver and Defiance have simple but very extrensic motivations behind it's collectibles yet they're necessary to go through the game's progression. Keep up the good work mate!
Sonic Adventure 2 had a fantastic reward for collecting all 120 emblems. Getting to play a (then) brand new concept of classic level in 3D was a huge surprise, not to mention unlocking further 2P options and skins as you progressed in the GCN edition
I feel like roguelikes are a genre full of what could *technically* be considered collectibles. Every unlock helps you complete runs, and everything you find helps you beat the current run.
I only waited for you to mention DK64, and while I agree with you, it's still one of my favorite Collect-A-Thon's, just for the reason that there IS so much to grab with each character. :D
An amazing example of useful collectibles are Djinns in Golden Sun, they are a kind of equipment which shape the stats, element, skills and class of the character they're given to, or else Suikoden games where the characters themselves could be considered a sort of collectible.
Having them be an intrinsic part of the gameplay or a worthwhile upgrade to give you motivation to seek them out is some of the best design for "collectables", simply because they are practical, not just some pointless trinket to tick off a checklist.
My favorite is still Spyro the Dragon 1. It plops you into the first hub world with no guidance. You can do the obvious thing and free the dragon directly in front of you, and he will give you some ideas of what to do. But you can also ignore freeing him entirely. But the best part is in the opening scene, where a dragon mentions they have “12,000 gems... or was it 14,000?” This immediately got me interested in collecting all the gems to find out, and I was rewarded for doing so, as the last 2,000 gems were a bonus level where Spyro can fly indefinitely. Spyro the Dragon 2 made an entire amusement park the reward for collecting everything, but even that wasn’t as exciting for me, as I knew what was coming and was in a sense herded to get there.
I know you meant Mario's "Yahoo" when he jumps, but I couldn't help but imagine "Yahoo" by Lemon Demon. That would actually be a really good challenge run, à la the Haddaway challenge!
You know one of the collectables I most remember? The studs from the Lego games. There was something incredibly satisfying about the sound of the meter filling up to 100% at the end of a stage.
Very true
and the fact that you can't and aren't supposed to collect them all. It makes it so you don't need a guide to complete it, just go around smashing and having fun. Truly the best collectable
True Jedi
@@matthewrease2376 Pirate Legend
SAME
As a collectible, i love the Grubs in Hollow Knight.
You get money, a charm and something else if you find them (so immediate reward, and not only if you find them all) but also, as you progress and you see them, you start to care for this tiny things. You hear them cry, and you want to rescue them. You are invested in finding collectibles because slowly you forget that they are collectibles, and you just want them to be reunited with their papa.
On top of that, there's an in world way to find the ones you're missing. After i was playing for around 20~ hours, i was getting a little tired of searching for them, just looking for a few stragglers. It was one of those ones where "i could just keep running in circles... or I could look up the wiki... but that feels like cheating" And then I ran into the collector, a boss in the game that I found moderatly difficult on my first run, but the reward gives you a map for "all of the grubs he knows about and couldn't get yet"
I absolutely loved this diagetic way to 'look up' the locations without having to resort to the wiki, and it didn't feel like cheating either, because I had to beat the boss to get it, and at the time, i was only around 5 grubs short.
The payoff to the grubs is weirdly unsatisfying though. Did the elder grub eat them? Are they going to metamorphose and emerge as a new generation of moth people? When you dream nail them and it says “happy,” who is it speaking for? And what does the charm description mean about “the next stage of their life”?
It really kills the mood of this otherwise unusually hopeful quest to realize at the end that you don’t know whether you did the right thing. Then again, Hollow Knight is a Dark Soul and we should have expected this.
And then you get to the Grub Mimics, and this fetch quest gets 2 more layers of nuance.
@@WizardOfDocs afaik he swallows them so they can go through metamorphosis and become grubberflies, and the sad part is he'll die from it
It would be easier to forget they are a collectible if a dude called the collector (or whatever) wasn't the one who collected them.
10:43 I think banjo kazooie levels are akin to a theme park. They usually have a sort of circular layout with recognizable monuments, so you quickly understand the level as a whole as you explore it.
This is a great way to describe it, though I have always went with the term: "playground", because the best levels are designed around different set pieces and the best ones work mechanically like a slide, monkey bars or a swing.
I think a special note on collectables has to be given to DiscRoom. The enemies in the game? Circular saws which kill you. The levels in the game? Arcade-style things that inevitably end when you die, with a high score table for each one tied to how long you last. The only collectable in the game? The circular saws. Which you collect by being killed by them.
Yeah, it's a very simple twist that blows your mind if you've gotten used to dozens of collectathons.
I'd like to add Hollow Knight to the list of games that use collectibles well. I personally just love exploring the Hallownest, and when I see a spike-filled tunnel my first thought is "Huh, I wonder what's at the end of that tunnel". Finding a neat little collectible at the end of said tunnel is really rewarding, especially since it gives an extrinsic incentive (usually by giving you new items, abilities or resources), but you definitely don't feel forced to hunt for every secret
Also, there are plenty of secrets that are in really obtuse locations that you wouldn't think of, but those ones are almost always just items that you can sell for geo and that don't matter for getting 100% completion. That way, the game can reward players for thinking outside of the box, while not requiring it.
the fact that the reward is not immediate makes it so much better to me. the anticipation of visiting the grubdad after saving many grubs and being showered with hundreds of geo all at once feels awesome
edit: it also means that that geo is safe with them until you go claim it, so you don't risk immediately losing it upon death
other edit: oops i meant to reply to the comment about grubs
Metroidvanias tend to be very good at collectibles in general. The point of Metroidvanias is exploration, so that's intrinsic motivation already handled, and it's pretty simple to realize it's a good idea to incentivize players by making the collectibles useful.
@@landis9767 The extrinsic reward of simply seeing them freed pushes you to save them in the moment, and the intrinsic value of getting showered in geo pushes you to go out and look for them.
Also finding all the charms is a lot of fun.
I’m surprised you mentioned Pokémon without talking about it’s biggest problem; the tradition of releasing two versions of each game makes your ability to complete your collection is dependent on other people. It doesn’t matter how good or invested you are, if you can’t find that one person who’ll trade a certain Pokemon with you then you can’t 100% the game.
But... that was the purpose of the game. Socialize
@@smashcuash Really? I thought the purpose of the games was to "catch 'em all" or to "BE THE VERY BEST, LIKE NO ONE EVER WAS". In fact, outside of the anime abusing the power of friendship (because Shonen), there's really never a point where any character is positively socializing. And even in the anime, the power of friendship is between the pokemon and the trainer, not between pokemon and pokemon or trainer and trainer.
And I know I made the pokemon theme music joke, but even that drives home that it's about adventuring, not socializing. "I will travel across the land, searching far and wide, teaching pokemon to understand, the power that's inside". The closest that it gets is "Oh you're my best friend" and "there's no better team" but even then, those drive home the bond between pokemon and trainer.
@@smashcuashno, definitely not
@@1TieDye1 If you don't know, don't act like you do 😝
Pokémon was made to be a game you play and trade in with friends.
@@deadersurvival4716it wasn’t about socializing,
it was about selling the trade-cable….
finally someone appreciating a short hike! the game’s beautiful so it’s perfect for background footage, plus the soundtrack is so welcoming and well-done.
Best short game I've played since Journey.
Played it through completion last week and it was such a good experience!
Is there a completion bonus for watching all Design Doc episodes?
Warbot personally comes to your house and collects your soul.
You get a heart from me. Keep refrigerated.
It’s more about the journey than the destination, intrinsically gratifying.
A secret boss against the subscribe button
Honestly, I really enjoy Donkey Kong 64. It really fits the example of a "Game I love but everyone hates" bingo slot
I liked the literal fps battle mode it had lmao, probably just because of nostalgia. The 3D platforming was kinda bad though.
I LOVED DK64 as a kid. Recently I tried to replay it as an adult, for nostalgia’s sake, and it was more frustrating than I remember. Either I have less patience or now I just used to the streamlined game design of modern games.
This is the first time I heard of someone hating the game. I thought everyone loved it. I think Donkey Kong 64 is great game too. Personally I completely disagree with this guy's video.
16:06 “Sonic isn’t built to explore.”
Giant Rings in Sonic 3&K and Sonic Mania: “Ahem”
Sonic is definitely meant to explore. Sonic Heroes is another good example IMO. I think the issue with Sonic Advance is the small screen otherwise projecting different paths would be notably easier.
Mario odyssey is my favorite game and I think for the most part they do well with the collectibles..... but shoutouts to those three purple coins in sand kingdom that are just hanging off the edge at some random part of the largest kingdom in the game
Love Mario odyssey. My favorite Mario game as well and I have basically played em all. Moving exploring is just a joy and, The way the game wraps it's wide variety of activities all over the map and doesn't take you out and create really atmospheric locations that feel like they have a sense of culture and place. While interspersing more linear challenges throughout .
Yo I odyssey central I watch ur vids all the time
ODYSSEY CENTRAL!!! HI
I'm surprised that Ape Escape wasn't on here. Collecting the monekys using all gadgets and player knowledge, and how each monkey protests a unique challenge. In Ape Escape 3 each monkey had a something extra tied to it. And then also eventually playing the Metal Gear Solid mini game (which got me into the metal gear series)
That's true, you can literally blind rush your way and get the monkeys you need to clear each stage, the game doesn't even force you to get certain monkeys, you just catch the ones you wanna. Also there's a lot of depth in understanding how every monkey behaves and what's the best strategy to actually catch them, thing like blue pants are faster and get scared easily or red pant are agressive and will confront u.
Too bad its not really made readily available on too many different systems.
@@deoxxys Agreed. Wish they would do an Ape Escape Trilogy and release it on PC at least (obviously they would release it on Playstation as its the series home console). Would be nice to have on Xbox or Switch but Im not gonna hold my breath on that one...
Great vid!! I'm also glad someone remembered the amazing Sonic Advance series XD
@@cactusdip4680 sonic colors is a wii game of course it’s going to be better, even on a hamdheld
Sonic Unleashed had the sun/moon medals…what was Sega thinking? Never finished that game due to it
A Short Hike was an absolute masterclass in collectibles. I've never felt so immediately compelled to 100% than I did in that game. The golden feathers just make the game feel more exciting with each new one.
For me the collectibles in A Short Hike was talking to every NPC until they didnt have any more lines to say. And that one NPC made exhausting his lines quite difficult.
A Short Hike is one of my favorite games ever. I have never felt the way I felt playing that game with any other title. An overlooked gem in my opinion.
God, I still have nightmares about Sonic Advance 2's system.
Not only for going for those A ranks on every stage on all 5 missions (some are sucks than the others), you being forced to do grinding for those Chao Garden emblems.
@@Trimint123 That doesn't exist in the Advance games, you're referring to the Adventure games.
I damn love SA2, but the collectibles are shit. Damn.
I just played Mario Sunshine for the first time recently, and while a lot of people complain about its controls and such, my least favorite thing about the game was actually its condition for unlocking the final level. For someone who just wants to beat the game and not 100% it, that makes all the Delfino shines (not to mention the blue coins) completely useless.
On a different note, I love collecting all of the spheres in Kirby's Return to Dreamland. They're all placed pretty well, and there are some really good incentives for collecting them. Plus that game is just fun to play.
Sunshine has a big difficulty spike on the later levels and all of those "classic" Fludd free levels. The Blue coins however were pure bull. Mario games pride themselves in everything being signposted or have a clue showing you where to go to find what you need. There are no clues to blue coins, you just randomly check every spot, kill every enemy and pound the ground in random places to hope you get lucky, it's seems bizarre if you compare the red coins have structure and clarity to them, then the blue coins are just complete random bull.
I genuinely cannot believe the complete LACK of reward for anything in Mario Sunshine. 64 doesn't need a reward-- every single Star (well, with the exception of one) _can_ contribute to a normal, 70-star playthrough of the game. Even if you NEVER get, say... Tricky Triangles in Rainbow Ride, it doesn't matter, because you know that theoretically you could, and you know the purpose of doing so.
But what about, say... the poison river in Sunshine? It does not serve a purpose. If you don't get it, you lose nothing. If you get it, you gain nothing. And some of the levels are SO hard without feeling like true tests of your skill. Pachinko level doesn't feel like "I want to overcome this because I want to test my skills", it's just frustration that I've only seen, say, streamers or Let's Players do for the sake of showing it off.
The issues with Mario Sunshine's controls are, ironically, that *they are too good.* That means your fingers sliding just a tiny bit can make you reset the whole level due to starting a dash on the wrong direction, which isn't a thing on other Mario games. Spin jumps is a very cool technique who rewards your mastery but i (and many people as well) would rather prefer realistic, controlable momentum on my 3D platformer.
And that's why I consider Sunshine a 7.5/10 in a franchise full of 8.5-9.5/10 games.
The worst part is that most of the level designs & missions in Sunshine are even more obnoxious & repetitive and combined with forced completing 7 main missions, it makes the game alot more frustrating and tedious than in 64.
I like sunshine
One thing I do like about Psychonauts collectables are the memory vaults. Tying your understanding of the person the level is based on to exploration is a really great idea. Shame those are the most limited collectibles, would love some more optional lore.
“Breath of the Wild isn’t a game you’re meant to 100%”
*sweats*
I have 1000% lol
A Design Doc a day keeps the apple away! Or, something like that.
No apples seen today, wow! :o
I thought it was "Design Docs are thicker than water"
yawn
My favorite collectibles are the books and news papers from the trails series.
They have full ass storys in them. Short and long, short storys are usually 3 to a collection and 10 to 20 mins worth, but long ones are like 14 chapters and each chapter is a collectible, and theyre up to 3 hours when done in audiobook.
That is super high effort collectible imo.
Love the "A Short Hike" music. Playing that game right now and it's just so nice and wholesome, very charming world and dialogue. On sale on Switch rn too!
Nobody seems talk about books in Skyrim and magazines in Fallout (3,4,New Vegas) there.
They fit into the game world itself, they fit into game itself, they're ok not to be collected, they're like pressent boxes with surprises when they're found.
I was expecting to hear how Yooka-Laylee failed to understand Banjo-Kazooie’s Musical Notes by hiding it’s equivalent in a way similar to Crash 4’s crates.
But the same concept was explained throughout the video anyway.
Genshin Impact also does collectibles well. In both the Mondstadt and Liyue areas, there are numerous timer challenges, "follow this blue spirte" seelie statues, beautiful vantage points, and there's probably at least 1000 treasure chests across the entire map (so far! More of the world has yet to be revealed). And, they all provide a mixture of intrinsic and extrinsic motivation.
With a huge map, the purpose is to just explore, see what's around, climb everything, etc. Seelies are a lovely little distraction where you follow a little blue spirit for a bit, timer challenges are fun challenges (except when enemies spawn to freeze you), and chests are hidden in easily-overlooked areas as well as behind unmarked challenges - deciphering a poem, setting some torches ablaze, etc. The rewards from these serve as an extrinsic reward to doing something that's generally already intrinsically fun and engaging.
At the same time, they're all incredibly optional. Sure, they give you money, things to enhance stuff with, etc., but the game is based around the stories found in quests, which guide you on the map from point to point. The only thing that you simply cannot get without completing challenges, following seelie, and opening chests... are achievements (and none of those achievements require 100%, either).
And even for the achievement hunters and completionists, after doing a number of quests to help out the citizens of Mondstadt or Liyue, you unlock a treasure compass, which points you to nearby treasure chests - since there's so many of them, it's easy to miss a few.
As someone who plans on becoming a game designer, this helps out a lot!
...implying today's industry expects game designers to care about good design.
@@JayAreAitch What do you mean by that?
Is it weird that I watch these videos without the intention of being a video game designer?
@@LivingProof98 nah
@@Flaming_Saturn Modern gaming is shit and actual game design is secondary to graphics/being cinematic.
what about A Hat in Time with how well its oriented to exploring to get Yarns and Relics, Pons work well to keep you tracking from place to place and its great there isn't a "get all Pons" requirement and are just a tool to get the player to explore
also what about the other hand Yooka-Laylee, while its oriented to exploring, there isn't really something that gives you tracking on where to go next or what to do, just wander aimlessly until you find something, and that is on top of the needle in haystack problems it has, with Feathers and collectibles so hidden its absurd, like the crystal skulls that on top of being so hidden do absolutely nothing which makes you even question yourself for bothering exploring so much
I was anticipating Hat in Time to be featured in the video, but this channel has shown the game I adore plenty of times... except for the DLC? -- Who analyzes the design of Artic Cruise, Nyakuza Metro or even Death Wish?
Yeah exactly, as much as Yooka Laylee wanted to be the successor to Banjo and classic collection games of that nature, Hat in Time is so much more well-designed. YL just wasn't for for me at all, but i LOVED Hat in Time.
I don't like collectathons or 3d platformers in general but i loved a Hat in Time. It could be even better though, the hats are too contextual and pons become worthless pretty fast.
AHiT has a pretty major problem with its collectibles, actually-- the yarn balls aren't tracked anywhere. While this isn't an issue from a gameplay perspective, since you don't need anywhere NEAR all of them, it's a big flaw in general collectible design.
@@svenbtb YLaylee suffered the problem that later Rare games had, with levels too big and too much backtracking. It worked so well in BKazooie since the levels were a perfect size and collectable amount, they didn't wear out their welcome and each was well designed and not too difficult to find. Unlike BTooie which made the levels bigger and DK64 which added 5 characters worth of collectables with no easy way to swap characters.
The best kind of collectibles are the ones that don’t feel like one
Exactly this. A good collectathon is fun because the journey you take to collect things is fun, instead of just a chore for the sake of completion.
The best collectables feel like loot and not like cleaning the map.
As soon as it becomes frustrating for minimal reward its work and not fun.
I've heard that kind of description for collectibles. What are some examples of games would you say follow that description?
That's probably why Ape Escape is so satisfying. The monkeys feel like enemies rather than collectibles so you don't really notice they're collectibles.
Like the Maiamis(I hope I spelt that right)in A Link between Worlds?
Animal Crossing's approach to collectible rewards by giving you little facts in the form of a pun is by far my favourite.
The Knick-knackatory side quest in the Dragon Quest 5 remakes deserve a mention.
It's a purely intrinsic quest that consist of collecting rare souvenirs for all around the world, and exposing them on a Museum.
It's pretty extensive too, with way to upgrade and clean items.
While some of the items you get may be of value (most notably an infinite source of Yggdrasil Leaf), most of the items are absolutely useless. It's just a reward for exploring the game and returning to old locations.
The best thing is that it's not a single linear subquests, but a multitude of smaller goals, so you can take the quest any way you want. Anytime you need to take a break for the actions, you can look around for Knick Knacks in previously visited places.
Insert Paper Mario badges / Bug Fables medals here
I know it's just cause I'm replaying bug fables rn, but I had the same thought
I love bug fables so much, I try and collect everything just so I can spend more time playing it
I guess that would be intrinsic motivation, at least on my part
@@bigbadgammagnome omg I love bug fables!
Love the inclusion of A Short Hike! It deserves so much love.
15:38
Yeeeeeeeah, I will always and forever hold up the Sonic Advance series as a fantastic and heavily underrated continuation of the 2D Sonic gameplay, but even I will not hesitate to admit that Advance 2's Chaos Emeralds were absolutely horrendous, even with a guide.
Another incentive is console achievements, when they are not incredibly strict. For example "find all Koroko seeds in BotW" would not be a good achievement, because it is too demanding. But achievements are great as an incentive!
“Find all Korok seeds” sounds a lot like Minecraft’s How Did We Get Here advancement. Nobody does it, but it’s there in case you want to flex (or run the All Advancements speedrun category, which last I checked takes at least 24 hours)
Achievements were a mistake. They force people to play optional parts of a game when they'd rather do something more fun.
That example reminds me of the The Stanley Parable achievement that requires you to sit in a room for an ungodly amount of hours and just stare straight ahead and do nothing at all.
Me and my brother used to hunt trophies all the time on PS3, even to the point of renting games specifically to platinum them! (including the Hannah Montana game, no kidding) - I just wish the points you for for trophies could be used to redeem exclusive outfits in games or themes for the console. Maybe even small discounts?
@@JayAreAitch I disagree: it gives an incentive for players to approach new parts of the game that they wouldn’t typically play, and potentially find new things they enjoy, whether it be modes or playstyles. They’re completely optional remember.
Thank you. Crash 4’s completion system is basically the new Donkey Kong 64. The over abundance of collectibles with the use of artificial padding just makes 100% the game feel like absolute torture.
Every time I think of collectables I think of Lego Games.
Lego Games have at least 4 different collectibles per game. The four staples are Gold Bricks, Red Bricks, Minikits, and Character tokens, two of which (Red Bricks and Characters) are then locked behind an in-game paywall (that is, buying them with in-game currency. No Microtransactions involved) once you collect them. Each of them serves a different purpose. Gold Bricks unlock a special bonus level (or a stud fountain depending on the game), each Red Brick unlocks an extra, some of which are useful (collectible detectors (yes that includes a detector for Red Bricks themselves. Yes it is annoying when you find that one last) and currency multipliers) and some of which are silly (making the floor really slippery or giving every character groucho marx glasses), Minikits unlock a special Lego Build that you can visit in a gallery, sort of like a photo gallery but with Lego Models. There's five to ten minikits in each level depending on the game. Finally, character tokens unlock characters, all of which have different abilities and powers (later games start having a lot of power overlap because of the large amount of characters but whatever) that will help you solve puzzles in order to unlock other collectibles.
And of course a lot of games have their own unique collectables such as "characters in peril" which usually unlocks the character that is in peril (such as Stan Lee in Lego Marvel Superheroes) as a playable character.
Something else I think would be great to discuss in a Part 2, is the idea of collectibles having a "purpose".
Take currencies, for example: In many early games, especially side-scrollers like Super Mario and Sonic the Hedgehog, Coins/Rings were just a means of earning 1-UPs or improving your score. In Sonic's case, Rings were also tied directly to the health system; get hit, and you lose ALL your Rings, get hit when you don't have Rings, lose a life. Simple.
In Sonic Unleashed, however, the role of Rings was expanded slightly. Since the premise of the game is a globe-trotting adventure, Rings could also be used as currency at various shops in the world, so you could buy things like souvenirs for the Gallery, like concept art and music tracks, and food, which give EXP when consumed, increasing your stats. However, the rules of Ring collection still apply (this *is* still a Sonic game, after all), so while the amount of Rings available in a given stage are much bigger, you still need to be careful not to lose it all, especially in the late-game. Thankfully, this only applies to the Daytime stages, since the Nighttime ones use a health-bar (that can be filled by grabbing Rings) instead.
Of course, Mario Odyssey does something similar with Coins, with the added caveat of eliminating lives entirely.
DQXI's mini medal hunt really motivates exploring every single dungeon, city, etc you come across and break all pots and barrels and check all closets. Also the bookcases which have recipes for crafting equiipment (which are generally stronger than shop found goodies) are mixed in with lore, which was extremely motivating for me to read up on all the world-building that the team had done!
Lovely video! Especially glad to see A short Hike referenced and its music used for your outro; one of the most delightful games I've played in the last year.
Botw, odyssey, sonic advance 2, all very different when it comes to what the game wants from you. Super good video!
One great thing about Celeste's collectables is that it is totally possible to get 100% just playing through each level 1 time(and get it's secret collectibles on the second playthrough of each level) and if you miss a couple it will tell you how many and allow you to see which checkpoint you missed them on for strawberries, so you can easily go back for them. So, Celeste not only sets up it's intrinsic collectables well, it also makes collecting them no more frustrating than necessary. Even in cases where it definitely didn't have to go to that effort(the chapter 7 crystal heart remembers your progress on the gems even after you beat the stage)
For the collectables that aren't noted on the map(Crystal hearts and b-side tapes) the game does a decent job at letting you know they exist. One clever thing chapter 1 does is that it has a strawberry right next to the crystal heart puzzle, so if you go through the level without finding that puzzle you'll be missing a strawberry. And if you go back and try to find that berry, eventually you'll find the puzzle along with it. The b-side tape's location is very clearly signaled and that signal is also next to a berry so you'll probably find that too if you look for all the berries. Chapter 3 also does this very well, with the b-side tape being in an exceedingly obvious place and the crystal heart just requires a basic understanding of how that section of the game works and finding the fairly obvious spot where the path is blocked by something you need to clear. Chapter 4's crystal heart is somewhat findable for the adventurous. And, if you do miss those hearts, you are probably going to find one of the heart pieces in chapter 7.
Yes, Celeste's collectables are great!
No shit every collectable in platformsrs are like this
5:35
It kinda is though. The game is not a lot tougher, even easier at times since Luigi jumps higher. And after completing the game as Luigi, you get to revisit the place where the game begins in a quite lame purple coins level.
Mario Galaxy 2 would have been a way better example. After collecting 120 stars, you get the green star quest, hidden stars in each level. Some of them are more cleverly hidden than others, but it's a lot of fun. And after finding every 120 of them, you unlock a super-hard, final galaxy, one of the hardest challenges ever put in a Mario game, and it's soo rewarding to finish it.
Huge Crash fan here, and I really appreciate your critique of Crash 4, as I similarly felt the wearying amount of collectibles.
I would love to see a Design Doc on fun challenge versus frustrating challenge. Despite having every predisposition toward wanting to love Crash 4 and having intimate knowledge of Crash’s moves and physics, I found the platforming challenges of Crash 4 more frustrating than fun - and I even enjoyed N. Sane Trilogy’s harder Crash 1! I chalk it up to many obstacles being unfair by way of not being telegraphed enough (in many cases it seemed like you had to die to something in order to know to avoid it), but I would love to see a Design Doc analyzing that phenomenon.
This has become one of my favorite channels - keep up the great work!
Not sure how many people know this, but if you 100% Super Mario Galaxy's Luigi mode, you get one final level: home. Accessible to both bros, with a picture that gets saved to the original Wii for each. I used to do the jigsaw puzzle for them in the photo editor channel for ages. Was really sad that channel got removed for the Wii U.
A Memory called Empire is an amazing book, one of the best I read in 2020.
*Sees video*
Me: Huh, do I like collectibles?
*Looks at the Pokemon livingdex I'm working on*
Me: Well...
My favorite type of rewards are lore. I’m extrinsically motivated in games; never cared much for collectibles that don’t offer something interesting. Lore and backstory for the game’s world or characters can be more meaningful and satisfying because it leaves the player with something to think about long after the game is over.
For example, collecting a shine sprite may give you a brief moment of happiness, but discovering that Peter Parker’s parents were secret spies because you found a backpack on the docks of Manhattan holds far more emotion.
God of War 4 is a great example; that game loves giving the player collectibles in the form of lore markers and stories from Mimir that tell you things about their world you would never find out via the main story, and has a lot of hints at what the story may be for future games.
I feel constantly intrinsically motivated to find all collectables, even if it’s just for the feeling of slowly completing something, or even if I don’t get anything out of it. I’ve even collected every block in Minecraft and placed it in a chest just because i love having completed sets
psychonauts is my favorite game and i've collected every single figment in the game multiple times and youre right theyre really hard to see sometimes and they can be really frustrating (especially during the race in millas dance party) but for some reason theyre also really satisfying to collect. honestly though the other collectables in the game (emotional baggage, scavenger hunt items, vaults, and brains) are definitely better and have more of a reward to them like more mental health and fun secrets
I absolutely love the collectibles system in the LEGO games. You can buy tools to help you find them, and it rewards buying characters because you need specific types of characters to find some of them.
I like how in Kirby and the forgotten land, they would give you some lore if you collect a figurine. Which figurine you get is random, except for the special ones. You would have to do a specific task to get those.
I recently decided to replay Sleeping Dogs and try to 100% it.
It's got quite a few collectibles, with lockboxes, shrines, cameras and jade statues, each providing different benefits.
The lockboxes contain money, and sometimes unlock additional rewards. The cameras are located at hangouts where you first need to beat up some thugs and then hack the camera. You then have to catch the dealer through a video feed at your home and then you gain points which you can spend to level up Wei's police skills. Similarly, the jade statues can be returned to Sifu Kwok to gain powerful attack prompts.
Praying at the shrines recovers any health Wei lost, and praying at 5 health shrines gives Wei a 10% increase in health. Pray at all 50 and Wei's health doubles.
Everything has an instant reward and a long term reward, so that's a pretty useful trick in my opinion. Plus, you usually have to beat up thugs to get to these collectibles, and the combat is really fun.
All is true. Great game.
Something I think you could've commented on are the tools to help collect on BOTW, some of which are locked behind the DLC (released after people had already played a lot, and only for who paid).
Yeah, the locator thing that beeps near shrines is VERY helpful, and the ability to add items to it is incredibly creative and useful.
But things like the Korok Mask means you need to buy it, find it, and be using it (weak mask that stops you from using other helpful hats) to have slight help in locating the korok seeds.
Another tool that's very helpful, but locked behind the DLC, is the one that marks everywhere you have transversed in the map. It helps a lot to see where you have already looked for the collectable, but "only" tracks 200h, which means when that DLC released, some people had already missed some of the track, and also when you are in late game looking for the last things, you've probably already lost the track of many places you have already explored too.
A last tool, that is not DLC, isn't the biggest but is very usefull is the pins you can set with different drawings in the map. For me this system has two big problems:
The first being that 100 pins quickly becomes not enough, even when you don't mark everything you can.
The second problem, for me, is the drawings of the pins not being the most clear/useful; Yeah, the sword one is problably to mark where you can get a good sword, but most people won't care about marking that, so they might use it to mark something like the location of a Lynel, but then it becomes unclear what each mark is being used for, and not enought variety of drawings.
With this comment, now I realize you could probably make a whole video only on these tools from BOTW.
2:23 "In Mario 64 you can't get further in the game unless you grab some of the castle's power stars." Speedrunners: "Have I got news for you!"
I just thought of tokens in Pac man world 2. Sometimes they were a serious pain to find. Other times they were pretty easy. And the more you collected, the more arcade games unlocked in the arcade in level 0. Real world arcade games. And the final reward was Mrs. Pac man. I never actually found enough to get it, but I blame the levels on ghost island for that
I can never collect them all due to it being difficult. I usually stop once I unlock the art museum in PAC-Village. Maybe if a newer port came with Achievements/trophies on a certain console, I’d be more motivated to attempt it. But whatever, PacMan World 2 is the best game of the trilogy.
As a game developer. From this video I gathered that if I want my players to actively want to get collectibles, I need to place them with purpose. I need some form of a guide to help players keep track of collectibles. And i need the collectibles to feel like a reward. Thanks design doc. Love your videos.
I think the best collectables are the ones that fill an in-game encyclopaedia. Many games, especially RPGs, have encyclopaedias which give the players more details about items, monsters, locations, etc. It's an organic way of learning about the world and shows progress to the player, sometimes even giving hints of areas that are unexplored.
Ghost of Tsushima was one of my favorite games of 2020, but it had a lot of collectables that ranged from locations, flags and cosmetics. Even though I love exploring the world, I wouldn't go out of my way to carefully search for flags or outfits, but the games wind guidance system was really well done. Instead of just drawing a line or putting a circle where an item was hidden, the wind would just blow in the direction of the closest thing you wanted, and anything you can find or discover was select-able. So instead of ignoring them, finding all the hidden flags became a fun diversion of searching thanks to being simply guided by the wind, it didn't hold my hand, but it also didn't give me no idea where to look, either.
I love the mix of media in your vids. All the greatest and all the obscure, it’s very cool.
For DK64, I definitely have some nostalgia goggles, but when I play through I'm always pleased at how the collectibles are segmented. Usually I basically play through the stage once per character, and because I like the world design and atmosphere so much, it's fun to see the same place through a different lens, or to have individual areas and challenges for each character. Frantic Factory was really good at having the same general layout, but having a lot of specific areas and challenges for each character. But I can definitely see why that game isn't for everyone. Fungi Forest especially was really hard to navigate sometimes, even though I thought it was a really cool level. I would always be left with 5 or so colored bananas that I just couldn't find.
"You said no? So did I. Action Replay, baby!"
Ok, that got a snicker out of me.
I think Mario 3D world handled its collectables really well. It has three separate collectables: green stars (three per level), stamps (1 per level) and golden flagpoles (1 per level). Green stars are the only ones you actually have to collect, since you need a set amount of them to enter each world's Castle (which are required to beat in order to progress to the next world). Finding them isn't hard, but they each present a fun little challenge, and you'll rarely need to backtrack to get more stars, since the star limits to enter castle are really low, and the Captain Toad and Mystery House levels practically shower you with them. stamps are hiden in levels and just kind of cute, since they each have a different character or enemy on them, making them pretty fun to collect. the golden flagpole requires you to beat the level while reaching the tip of the flag, which a nice little challenge, and great for bragging rights in Multiplayer, which is how the game is best experienced. Overall, though these many collectables seem like a lot, they are pretty fun and natural to collect, and make the game a joy to 100% (also you need all of the collectables to reach champion's road)
Subbed. I'm really loving your platformer-focused content on this channel in particular. Nice to see such in-depth analysis for something that most players merely feel without giving it much overt thought. A+.
I do like how Ape Escape sort of flips the script on your usual collectathon. Instead of the apes being your reward after some kind of challenge, they ARE the challenge and everything else in between is typically your down time/ reward after managing to catch them which is satisfying in its own right. Special shoutouts go to the coins you collect throughout the game that you can exchange to get things like concept art, lore books, these really interesting one shot comic strips and, most importantly, Mesal Gear Solid ;)
My favorite intrinsically-motivated collectibles are the ones you see in randomizers. I've been playing Ocarina of Time randomized, but the same is true for other randomized games: since all the item locations are shuffled, _anything_ could be _anywhere,_ encouraging you to go after everything just in case this random chest has the crucial unlock you need to access the next part of the game, often without items the game would otherwise expect you to have for this area, producing novel puzzles each time where you have to solve the same puzzle with a different toolkit. For the OoT randomizer in particular, I quite enjoy the "Triforce Hunt" mode, where once you collect a certain number of triforce pieces the game immediately ends, no need to go through the slog of beating the final boss with all the unlocks in the game every single time.
said intrinsic motivation and then celeste music started! i was already thinking of the strawberries
I was gonna be mad if celeste wasn't mentioned!
collecting things in and of itself is fun.
or rather, working towards a completion in and of itself is fun.
doesn't necessarily need additional motivation, but of course that does make for a more engaging experience.
some sort of visualization of the player's progress of a *realistically completable* collection is generally sufficient.
that is why procedurally generated "collectibles" don't work. it's essential for collectibles to belong to a finite set.
procgen collectibles don't work, because it's essential for collectibles to belong to something that procgen can generate?
@@hi-i-am-atan generally the point of proc gen is to generate content during runtime because you want a very large quantity of it, but I guess you can use it to generate a small set of collectibles, too, if that's what you're suggesting.
however players are likely to perceive a distinct difference between a set of generated and a set of handcrafted/placed collectibles.
Great video! I'm not a completionist, so I've never put too much thought into collectibles, but I like how you broke it down. I also love the irony that gamification is often used to create chores for engaging - so the idea of gamifying a microcosm in game...
I like how the new Tomb Raider reboot games did collectables, as they sorta have two destinct "stages" for finding them...
Stage one is just running around the games open areas as soon as you get to them, looking for all of them right away, but if you get stuck and have a few you simply can't find, you have the option to go a little further in the story, often exploring optional challenge tombs, and you will likely stumble on the areas treasure maps at some point, which points out where you need to go to find them, but still leaves HOW to get to them up to the player.
One of the biggest offenders for being hard to find are the GPS caches, as they are tiny, and even when you unlock the ability to see collectables through walls and terrain, it's still very easy to overlook the golden glow they give off, so i always find myself missing 2 or 3 in each area, so instead of looking for them, i end up looking for the often out of the way, but easier to find treasure map for the area instead
Imagine being a collectionist in games like Ring Fit 💪
I'm a collectionist playing Ring Fit rn, shit sucks lol, my body is dying.
@@dacienfelice2993 But think about it, Ring Fit could be an example of a REAL LIFE "go back to the beginning of the game and feel OP" moment! Get all the collectables, go back to stage one and (hopefully) smash through it with your buffed up bod!
@@EzloMinish True, and I might try that, there are a few things I missed I think, but I like collecting as I go, it keeps me engaged longer, so I end up exercusing longer.
I like the Garibs from Glover, they function as score pickups that also give health and lives. finding all in a world will unlock a bonus stage for even more lives completing all the stages in the game unlocks an in game cheat list, if you can't find some in a level you can search for them in easy mode just by holding a button!
Banjo Kazooie 1 was amazing because the collectibles were grouped together such as the music notes. It felt like crumbs leading to other collectibles or points of interest.
I’d like to add Ori Will of the wisps to the list, I know it has been a year but for a Metroidvainia it was really well done. It was really fun to find them all in the first and second game with all the challenges with each one, and they were optional but really help-full. It was enough for me to have fun collecting every one after I beat the game.
I really love Alice: Madness Returns collectibles. The Memories give story bits, and are shaped differently for each of the character that is speaking, some are just for flavor, some are actual foreshadowing of the twist in the end, and most are related to where they are found. The Bottles unlock concept art, character and enemy profiles. The Snouts unlock new paths and unveil other collectibles. The Radula Rooms provide challenges and give you a health boost at the end. And the teeth are used to upgrade weapons, are literally everywhere and make a really good noise when you pick them up.
It definitely sounds like a lot, but they're so well placed and fit in so well with the platforming and other mechanics that it is really pleasurable to collect them, even if they're all optional.
The figments of imagination from Psychonauts is the my favorite simply due to the fact that each look unique and add environmental storytelling
Thank you for talking about Sonic Advance 2. I resorted to using a guide as a kid and I used to feel guilty about it until I realized it was just bad game design!
One collectible system I’ve always felt mixed about are the Kinstones in The Legend of Zelda: The Minish Cap. On one hand, it’s a really interesting concept how each Kinstone fusion permanently changes the world in a surprise way. It might unlock a secret area, cause an NPC to move to a new house or a new shop to appear, or spawn a special enemy that yields tons of Rupees when slayed. It really makes the world feel more complete and real, and it feels great to get a new batch of Kinstones and see what you’ll get when fusing them.
On the other hand, Kinstone spawns are mostly random, and some of the rarer ones can take forever to grind out. You do get some from chests but otherwise have to cut a ton of grass, kill a bunch of enemies, and eat a lot of bread if you’re going for a complete run. It’s a unique system that unfortunately falls short due to the grind it requires, and I wish Kinstones had been tackled differently because they could’ve ended up being something amazing.
The collectible that never gets old for me are the figurines in Wind Waker's Nintendo Gallery. No matter how many times I play that game, I always have to complete it. Like you said, it's more about recording your adventure than anything, but the method of collecting them is the perfect balance of risk vs. reward. Similar to the Tattle Log in Paper Mario and Paper Mario TTYD, you have to risk your characters safety to record your journey. So fun!
My favorite solution to the 'needle in a haystack' problem is Banjo-Kazooie's results screen. Other people may argue that it's too simple of a solution, brings gameplay to a total halt, takes you out of the experience to read a checklist, etc. All good points - but to me, it's simple and gets straight to the point. I'd argue that the limited level size is the reason why you don't need a hint system - unless you're like me in video games, in which you just have the worst luck and you just can't find that one thing that everybody else can find.
This feels like an Adam Millard - The Architect of Games video! That’s a good thing! I love both your channels
This was a really interesting video, and very helpful. I'm an independent game developer. My first game is, in part, a 3D collect-a-thon and one of my main design goals is to create a deep and enjoyable movement system. To support this goal, there's a couple of different collectibles. Small, numerous "coins" and big, hard-to-get "stars" are the main collectibles, with "coins" being used as currency and "stars" being the keys to story progression. Obviously I'm not gonna call them coins and stars because coins and stars are Mario's collectibles, but I don't like to talk too much about the artistic design of the game on public forums because if I say my game is about a chicken collecting kernels of corn and golden eggs, then I run the risk of someone else making a game about a chicken collecting kernels of corn and golden eggs.
Anyway, the point I'm trying to make is that I deeply appreciate the hard work you put into this thoughtful analysis of a common game design tool. It's interesting to the game player side of me and useful to the game maker side of me.
The platinum time relics were the last staw on Crash 4 for me and my friend, we spent so many hours getting all the gems and completing all the flashback tapes and then couldn't even get the platinum relic on the first level, at some point you just get burnt out and it does just become a chore rather than fun.
Thank you for giving Banjo-Kazooie the respect it deserves, as refining the Mario 64 formula.
One of my favorite collectables in gaming are the clue bottles from Sly 2. They're only in the hub world (so no need to worry about having to replay missions, like in the first game), they make a nice clinking sound to hint at where they are, and give you the combination to a safe with a new move. Plus, they have a very satisfying breaking sound when collected.
Speaking of collectibles: Me and my brother used to hunt trophies all the time on PS3, even to the point of renting games specifically to platinum them! (including the Hannah Montana game, no kidding) - I just wish the points you for for trophies could be used to redeem exclusive outfits in games or themes for the console. Maybe even small discounts?
Evanz111 That is pure dedication to trophy hunting there.
Astro Bot Rescue Mission had some good collectibles. First are the missing bots, 5-6 is each stages that you rescue and add to your ship where you can see them walk around. Each world does have a required amount of bots rescued to unlock, but it doesn't need 100%. Next are the chameleons, 1 in each stage, which each unlock an optional challenge stage. The final part is the claw minigame, when you collect coins you can use them to play a claw minigame, getting special diorama pieces for your ship that you can play around with.
Astro's Playroom also has a bunch of collectibles which serve more like easter-eggs.
Cool video. I'm actually taking a class on motivation this semester, and this is a good sum up of intrinsic and extrinsic motivators.
I love how Paper Mario did this.
They just, had some magical dude you pay coins to, and they look into their crystal ball, and give you pretty nice hints to where the collectibles are.
They also do this, to help you progress story, if you're stuck.
Great video! Hearing music from A Short Hike brought back so many good memories... That game also does collectibles surprisingly well!
I loved the djinn in Golden Sun. You encountered a few through the story, but most were hidden behind puzzles or exploration. The player could equip the djinn on characters however they wanted, mixing elements to unlock new spells or stacking elements to cast the most powerful versions of basic spells. The more you find, the more powerful you are for the final battle, but Golden Sun 2 lets you import your data from the first game, so all those djinn you found power you up in the next game, too
I believe we can count souls in Aria of Sorrow and Dawn of Sorrow as collectibles, and also demons in Devil Survivor series. Those collectibles are optional and game can be completed without getting all of them but they give impact on gameplay. Souls give alternate attack or ability for Soma while demons give ally to aid battles in Devil Survivor.
I feel like the "of Sorrow" brand of Metroidvania (Aria of Sorrow, Dawn of Sorrow, and Bloodstained) have the best mix of intrinsic and extrinsic motivators when it comes to their collectibles. There's still the standard HP and MP max upgrades, but each enemy having a special ability that you can get - with bosses always giving theirs - is a great combination of motivators. You want to collect the stuff the normal enemies give because it's a new toy to play with that may end up having a cool synergy with something else, while the bosses predominantly represent progression abilities, though that's not always the case, and even those that are progression based, usually have utility outside of just progression, making fiddling around with each option that much more rewarding.
I agree with this, but I do need to make a minor correction. Not all of the bosses guarantee their soul/shard drops, just the ones that can only be killed once per playthrough. If they appear as a regular enemy later on, they won't drop their ability when defeated as a boss.
For example, you won't get a bosses' soul in Aria of Sorrow until boss 5 (the Headhunter), as the other 4 are encountered as regular enemies in later areas.
night in the woods has a good intrinsic collectible system! mae has a journal to write down her thoughts, and by going out of your way to talk to people or do certain things, you can fill out the notebook. you do have to do another playthrough of the game to get everything tho
I think my favorite collectables are Bobbleheads from Fallout 3. They felt unique, rewarded you with a stat boost, and were placed in interesting locations making them fun to search for.
I love the Kodamas in Nioh, they are fun to find, not too numerous and useful but optional (they let you customise item drops a bit) ... also they are cute! ^^
Every time you bash Rayman 1, a wide grin spreads on my face. I grew up with that game and I love it to bits, and hearing your (legitimate!) concerns about it are great, in a sort of The Roast of Rayman 1 type of way. I understand completely how you feel, and although I don't agree (i.e. I personally think it's great fun to try and figure out where the hell all the Cages are, and also that some of that design lends itself to a sort of 'puzzle game' type gameplay loop), I can totally see how incorporating your point of view in my own thoughts about game designs are a healthy way to think about solving the problems that creating a game presents for its desginers.
I love collecting virtual items, so DK 64 was actually one of my favorite collectible systems! The intrinsic motivation kept me at it, and as you mention, each item unlocks its own particular set of things. With only a few exceptions, I didn't find it hard to find the collectibles for each ape, largely because they're not quite random, but rather on a path to a golden banana for that Kong, with a few slightly off the path to keep you on your toes. For the most part, if you're missing a collectible for someone, you can backtrack along that path and use first person view to look around the area, or just go after a different Kong's collectibles until you find the ones you missed, in their ghostly un-pick-upable form for that Kong. You also usually can't get every collectible for each Kong right away, since some are locked behind abilities you have yet to get in that level or sub-areas within the level, so you're usually good if you collected everything you saw and your number ends in a 5 or a 0, again with only a few exceptions.
What I am surprised you didn't mention was the Arkham games, although you did include a clip of them at the very end. The Riddler trophies are strewn evenly throughout nearly every area in the game (except for the Batcave, which makes sense story-wise), and are either out in the open in a tricky spot, behind an obstacle that requires a certain gadget, or in some sort of puzzle. Collecting some of them isn't hard at all, which is just enough to start the Riddler storyline, and completing the storyline doesn't require 100% of the collectibles (I think the first game might be an exception there). Collecting them gives you interesting dialogue as the Riddler gets increasingly less cocky and more nervous at your skill, which is sort of a meta-reward for the player. It also unlocks new Riddler areas in the later games, so you technically get bonus areas! Batman's detective vision helps spot them if you're in the same area, and you can get a map of the collectibles in the first game, and interrogate his goons to add a selection of them to your map in the later ones. And, of course, it's all completely optional to the main storyline! All of that is why I was sure you were going to discuss it within this video, but of course you still had a very thorough and informative discussion without it.
I think Rare platformers and the Arkham games have a really similar comparison. Banjo Kazooie and Arkham Assylum are tightly designed games with limited backtracking and enough collectables to be an enjoyable side activity. DK64 and Arkham City on the other hand, are just massive sprawling levels and the sheer quantity of collectables means it takes more than twice as long to 100% everything than to just complete the game, collecting soon becomes chore like as they are no longer a side activity if you want to collect them all. They become the focus of the game, disrupting the narrative and forcing you to stop over and over to make sure you haven't missed all the collectables before moving on to another level.
@@cattysplat That makes perfect sense, and I suppose it comes down to your playstyle. I always hunt down every collectible I can before progressing the story, so I was never overwhelmed by the amount, especially on future playthroughs, but I can definitely see how it would be overwhelming to the average player!
Legacy of Kain Soul Reaver and Defiance have simple but very extrensic motivations behind it's collectibles yet they're necessary to go through the game's progression. Keep up the good work mate!
Sonic Adventure 2 had a fantastic reward for collecting all 120 emblems. Getting to play a (then) brand new concept of classic level in 3D was a huge surprise, not to mention unlocking further 2P options and skins as you progressed in the GCN edition
I feel like roguelikes are a genre full of what could *technically* be considered collectibles. Every unlock helps you complete runs, and everything you find helps you beat the current run.
I only waited for you to mention DK64, and while I agree with you, it's still one of my favorite Collect-A-Thon's, just for the reason that there IS so much to grab with each character. :D
An amazing example of useful collectibles are Djinns in Golden Sun, they are a kind of equipment which shape the stats, element, skills and class of the character they're given to, or else Suikoden games where the characters themselves could be considered a sort of collectible.
Having them be an intrinsic part of the gameplay or a worthwhile upgrade to give you motivation to seek them out is some of the best design for "collectables", simply because they are practical, not just some pointless trinket to tick off a checklist.
My favorite is still Spyro the Dragon 1. It plops you into the first hub world with no guidance. You can do the obvious thing and free the dragon directly in front of you, and he will give you some ideas of what to do. But you can also ignore freeing him entirely.
But the best part is in the opening scene, where a dragon mentions they have “12,000 gems... or was it 14,000?”
This immediately got me interested in collecting all the gems to find out, and I was rewarded for doing so, as the last 2,000 gems were a bonus level where Spyro can fly indefinitely.
Spyro the Dragon 2 made an entire amusement park the reward for collecting everything, but even that wasn’t as exciting for me, as I knew what was coming and was in a sense herded to get there.
"In Super Mario 64, you need to collect stars to progress."
**constant yahoo intensifies**
Y-y-y-y-y-y-y-y-y-y-y-y-y-y-
I know you meant Mario's "Yahoo" when he jumps, but I couldn't help but imagine "Yahoo" by Lemon Demon. That would actually be a really good challenge run, à la the Haddaway challenge!
Shouts to simpleflips