Many times we have backed away from a fight or ran for our lives. We once kept a horde of Orcs from attacking us by asking them in Orcish if they had seen a dragon flying nearby. The DM looked puzzled by this and my response was "Do you think that they would want to mess with a group hunting a dragon?" He thought about that and decided that they probably wouldn't want to attack us if we were that tough. So we talked our way out of that situation.
I used to fudge dice rolls back when I started playing 30 odd years ago, but have recently started DMing again (1ed Ad&d, currently foing a slightly modded version of B2 funnily enough) and now just follow the dice, which has actually been a bit of a revelation in the level of drama and unusual situations it has created. Great content as ever.
Absolutely agree with your take on encounter balance. It's a crucial reminder that not every encounter is meant to be a fair fight. The beauty of TTRPGs lies in the unpredictability and the variety of solutions players can come up with-be it diplomacy, stealth, or outright confrontation. Encounters that challenge players to think on their feet, weigh their options, and sometimes choose to retreat or negotiate add depth and realism to the game. It's not always about winning the fight but how creatively and strategically players navigate challenges. Thanks for this insightful video, it really highlights the importance of dynamic storytelling over a one-size-fits-all approach to encounters.
There are very few, if any "Fair Fights" in D&D otherwise no party would ever get to third level, you'd statistically lose every other fight. Even if the big final encounter in a dungeon is genuinely "fair" half the party should die.
Unbalanced encounters is what makes the OG game so fun. You could easily get in over your head if you make an unwise decision. It means you can't just hack your way through everything.
Counterpoint: randomly losing your character because the DM decided to throw a BS encounter at you is pretty unfun. I'm OK with that if there's proper warning, or it's common sense, or it's the players' fault for poking the sleeping dragon, but just throwing unbeatable enemies at the party is little different from Dropping Rocks on them.
@@swirvinbirds1971 " It's the player choice to fight or flee. Of course a DM out to get you will." Maybe, maybe not. Sometimes there are things that just end up getting messed up by miscommunication among the players or the DM not understanding things. I'm trying to suggest that having some additional information can be very useful for newer DMs who don't have the kind of fingerspitzengefühl that an experienced one will have. Both 3.X and 4E went way, way too far in the direction of "DM proofing" but I totally get why they did what they did.
My players (daughter and friend) are not afraid of PC death. She asked for a funnel to start. The funnel part I expect about 25% death. Also, they will have a pool of four PCs each and play kind of a west march style. I don't fudge. If their actions don't warrant a role I won't roll, i.e. "I use a mirror to check behind..." And there is a trip wire there, they find it. Agree with the rest of your video.
Ha! Yeah, I tried to find a good picture to depict him and mentioned how his face was covered with pockmarks. He became a favorite of the players despite his shady history and appearance! I do have to credit Professor Dungeon Master from DungeonCraft for coming up with that name!
“Listen to Your Players” is key advice. I was running the OSE module “Winter’s Daughter” because i knew my players would like the fey elements. However, there’s quite a bit of dungeon exploring and my players were saying how they didn’t like dungeons because they’re “lonely and boring”. So I added some additional NPCs and made the encounters far more talkative. They ended up having discussions with ghosts and a dance competition against some snooty fey lords. That’s okay in OSR games because you don’t rely on combat for XP. In the end the adventure had one fight that lasted about four rounds until the enemy fled.
Oh wow - what a fantastic way to handle that adventure for your players! I love hearing stories like this. Thanks for watching, commenting, and sharing. I appreciate it. Cheers!
First, I love all your videos. Second, The Land of Eem actually takes the monster reaction table concept and makes it the mechanic for the entire game.
Thank you so much! You were my earliest supporter of the channel, I think! And thanks for that. With being sick and dealing with family issues, I am way behind on watching videos from my favorite fellow creators (such as you). But I have just rectified that!
Trying! I had a teledoc appointment last Wednesday evening who prescribed antibiotics. I just finished my course yesterday. My nose is still very stuffy but my cough has gotten better.
Thank you so much for saying that. Clearly they are doing something right to have gotten so many followers, but I'm just going to keep doing what I'm doing. One thing you don't have to worry about is me covering the latest WotC/5E "controversy" because I don't play 5E. I follow the news, but I've learned it's not really relevant to the vast majority of my viewers.
Get well soon! I loved this video (as always), and did not find it rambling at all. I love that you present a theory and then give lots of fun specific stories to illustrate your point. And I totally agree about not adjusting danger to fit character count or level (as long as everyone knows how dangerous stuff is, of course). But one thing I want to push back on is, I do hear people say "it's a game, not a story" to support that point, as you did here. I do get that perspective, but personally I think it's the other way around. In other words, not adjusting danger level is actually what makes the experience feel even more like a fun and exciting story, as your examples beautifully illustrate. The dragon is the dragon, and it is super scary to get anywhere near its cave when you are lower level. THAT is a story experience, to me. It's an emotional, immersive experience. In fact, having things adjusted to your level is what would feel more like a game, if that makes sense (not that there is anything wrong with that). Anyhow, thanks again for the awesome video, and I hope you feel better soon!!! (Also, those oranges are super common in the country I live in, so it was fun to see one!)
Thank you very much. I am feeling better each day, but still not 100%. I do take your point about story. For me, the story emerges from the game play and from the decisions made by the players. But I think we're kind of talking about the same thing, but using different language/words to do so. In any event, I'm so happy you enjoyed the video. And once again, I thank you for watching through to the end to see the bonus content. I have fun adding that little personal touch to my videos and always appreciate when someone watches it.
I appreciate this video. I'm just starting to learn OSR D&D and appreciate the DM advice from people like yourself who have been playing it and running games for years. I'm about to start running Keep on the Borderlands with my daughter who is also new to OSR D&D. She's the only one who wants to play. So I'm having her run three characters. I'm going to run two retainers. So, because she's new and she's already running three characters and I'm running two retainers, I figured I would reduce the number of creatures. I'm thinking probably by half + one. So if there's nine creatures I would only have five attack at once.
Thank you so much! I'm so glad you found the channel and I appreciate your support! It sounds like you're doing the right thing in terms of knowing your player(s) and how your daughter, running three characters, might need to have the number of monsters adjusted. I do hope that she will be able to find some other friends to play with, but as a dad running a game for his own daughter, I can tell you that it's a special time for us and I love putting in the time and effort for her. As she's gotten older, especially, we have fewer and fewer things in common, but D&D is something where we know we'll have scheduled time to hang out (with her friends) but also it's part of our Dad/Daughter time. D&D Dads Unite! Best of luck in your game, and please feel free to share how your game is going and/or ask questions either here on via my social media channels.
Easiest way to balance encounters in D&D: Play 4e. If you use the standard number and levels of monsters (1 per party member of same level) the party will be able to go 3-6 encounters between extended rests before they run out of the resources needed to forge on. And if you want to make things easier or harder, just add or remove monsters or levels. The math is so simple that it makes designing balanced (or very easy or very difficult) encounters effortless so you can spend more time on other things like making the encounter interesting and fun, or creative storytelling and plot and flavor and developing characters and not as much time on math just to achieve "balance." The balance is baked in.
"When the buffalo fight, small animals get trampled." This is why powerful characters (and monsters) run into fewer and fewer unpowerful creatures.They steer clear for survival, or not.
Feels like you did a great job in ruling and balancing to me! I only hide things behind a die roll if I feel it needs to be a challenge or roadblock. Otherwise if it makes sense or pushes story forward it is degree of success or just allow it. Thumbs up for using morale and reaction!
I actually heard recently that the algorithm specifically ignores all comments that contain the word algorithm. Which must really be unfortunate for UA-cam channels that are all about how you build algorithms for computer programming.
I didn't balance the encounters back in BECMI or AD&D, relying mostly on the "dungeon level" tab to evaluate how hard a creature would have been for the party. The issue of balance became a thing with third edition, which did it poorly too. I was often disappointed about how botched the challenge rating was, usually overestimating a creature's dangerousness by a lot, which resulted in far easier encounters than anticipated. So since 3.5 I simply ignored CR, put whatever number and type of enemy I wanted in an adventure and used my personal model of free form experience instead. Players had once again to use their brains to overcome challenges, because blindingly attacking everything didn't work anymore. Not that often anyway. And since I tend to improvise a lot, this kind of way works a lot better for me. About fudging dice, I did sometimes when I first started DMing, but I stopped very soon, when BECMI was still around. I found that the real results can be a lot more fun than any fudged one, so since then all my rolls are made in the open before the players.
No need to apologize for championing through adverse conditions. This was another excellent video on a fascinating topic. I love rolling in the open! And I love the old school procedures for randomizing stuff. Plus I use simple dice roll oracle when in doubt as well as different random tables for all kinds of things. I've seen such cool things happen when PCs end up way over their heads. The solutions can be so cool and I also generally like it when there ends up being a social situation with a baddie. In my experience there just isn't the kind of emergent play in 5e or other modern systems because the system tends to come in the way while in OSR systems the mechanics actually promote surprising situations and out of the box solutions. I'm also really eager to try my new escape/chase mechanic for OSR. Simple, old school and flavorful if I may say so myself 😁
@@daddyrolleda1 1.Reaction roll (if not in combat) 2.Fleeing from melee/initiative (if applicable) 3.Morale roll (will they pursue? Roll again if dungeon exited) 4.Escape roll: 2d6: 7 or higher = escape successful Nat 2 = escape fail (move up to speed) Nat 12 = escape success Escape speed = 3 x speed /rnd Failed escape = Escape roll - 1d4 rnds Modifiers: -3 to +3 speed difference + str/dex mod of slowest escapee +1 to +3 distraction/tactics +1 to +3 for smart use of environment +1 to +3 if pursuers have a bigger group Int/wis check or wrong turn taken in a complex dungeon. Distractions: dropping treasure, food etc; dropping caltrops, marbles, oil etc (burning oil forces a ML check). Pursuers can send part of their group ahead. Slower pursuers catch up in 1d4 + group size mod rnds (max the length of escape) if the escapees are held fighting. DM can roll secretly or openly and narrate round by round so escapees can use distraction means as needed.
Looks very interesting! I'd have to see it in play to see how smooth it runs. Have you playtested it yet? It looks like a lot of moving parts but I suspect once a person ran it a few times it would go pretty fast. That's one of the things I always struggle with when running chases: I want the action of play to speed up and be tense, so I try to keep my chase mechanics very minimal so we don't get bogged down in rules.
@@daddyrolleda1 I've actually only run it once 😅 I'm too flaky, but I have to give it some more goes before trying in a game. For PCs chasing monsters I would likely just roll a simple d6 ruling the success range based on the situation. For a long time I've felt what's really needed is having PCs flee, having a relatively simple quick resolution giving the players an opportunity to make some decisions and benefit from equipping themselves with caltrops, marbles etc. and even deciding to drop a backpack if it gets really tight. I did try to make it rely on rule of thumb kind of rulings which is why the modifiers are in the hands of the DM based on what kinds of decisions players make. Also trying to keep it as simple as I could by just rolling the escape check once. Ofc situationally there can be morale and even reaction check if you go all the way from the beginning of the encounter. I'm very happy to receive more feedback of something comes to mind or if you even decide to try it out. My main worry is it's too easy but then it can be adjusted easily.
The party should know that sometimes it will be overmatched, and that there are any number of ways to handle any encounter -- often combat will be the worst or at least the most risky.
Definitely. My daughter's group is very big on trying to avoid combat unless absolutely necessary. We also play with resource management, so they look at it from the standpoint that combat uses up resources (including hit points, spells, and light) that might be detrimental later on if they don't have them.
I used to occasionally fudge my dice rolls, but now that I run my game online it is not so easy to do so. Even so, the players still accuse me of cheating. I run my games as a semi-guided sandbox and we all very much enjoy the very unexpected paths they choose, even if it leads to some horrible end. Hearing your methods is great. I am currently working on adding the old Reactions Table into my game. I hear there is a super-bloom or such out there in California and hope it does not keep you from getting better quickly!
Great video, as always. Hope you'll get better soon. My players are a bit new to dnd especially OSE, so I kept struggling to convey if the encounter is hard or not. Eg. They have just beat a bunch of zombies with ease, but they are now facing a smaller group of ghouls. Well, it shouldn't be that hard? Few paralization save later, and now they know. It is quite a challenge to just not openly tell them: I think you should just run. And crossing my fingers so they either find a way or make a good call. In addition, 2 of the 4 players seem mostly interested in combat. So I tried to set it up, so that they could have a fair figth from time to time.
I’ve had horrible allergies since I was a kid. They got better once I started going to an allergy doctor, mine would turn into sinus infections too, very fast. Use Flonase, also if you feel a sinus infection coming on flush your nose out with salt water. Take Zicam right away that helps. I do everything to not get a sinus infection. I feel your pain. Thank you for the video. Lots of good info.
Absolutely! I like to roleplay the hiring of them and see the PCs realize that putting CHA as their dump stat was maybe not a great idea! I helped the players understand that hiring people was common by having potential hirelings post "want ads" on the message board (the one I show in the video).
I recently got to see it in the theater with a live orchestra (birthday gift from my wife) here in Hollywood. I still enjoy Keaton's performance and Tim Burton aesthetic for Gotham City!
I used to fudge dice a lot, but now I never do. Let the dice fall where they may. I'm of a similar opinion to that blog post you mentioned that these are games, not stories, and games have rules and goals, and rolling dice are part of those. The dice aren't just there for klik-klak math rocks, they're there to be oracles to tell us all how things shake out.
In a very experimental game I'm running, I've been rolling d100s at the beginning and end of every session but not telling the players why until recently. It's supposed to be a measure of how badly the walls to the city they're in are being attacked by monsters, with lower numbers being worse, I got a 7 on the last one and the threshold for things to get really bad is anything in the single digits. So the players are really underlevelled for what's pretty much a Helm's Deep style of fight, so to compensate I've added both a few more NPC defenders and traps, but also something I called the "Havoc Meter". Where the further the enemies get into the defenses, the stronger reinforcements will show up for both the players and enemies. Ironically the more havoc the better it is for the players, because enemy reinforcements are just bigger numbers on the base monsters, but friendly reinforcements are basically scaled like players are, so if things get really bad something with the stats and abilities of an endgame PC helps them, this is both to show them how strong they can become later, but also for worldbuilding purposes. If they wipe to the fight, I've got an idea to turn it into a sort of survival scenario instead of just killing them off, where they need to either sneak past all the monsters back to safety or hide out and keep fighting a guerilla battle until enough support arrives to turn the tide.
The players of the game (whichever one) are a great source of ideas and never fail to surprise you at least once per session, the hard thing is to work the surpise into the story so it looks like it was intended all along.... Do not worry about a perfect balance, just have an exit plan that the players can use if the going gets too tough (like the trap door) or in my case, one of the players managed to charm a local cleric, who when things were looking bleak, turned up along with some locals armed with pichforks and torches and rescued the players (I do not like TPK), they survived to see the local temple use all the treasure, ( that they assumed would be theirs), to feed all the poor commision some paintings to adorn the temple, and new golden religious symbols fixed to the walls. The cleric is still under the charm effect, the players still in the debt of the temple. More thought provoking stuff. And get well soon.
Things like CR and monster level can be helpful for quickly figuring out how strong or weak something is if you do specifically want to make an overwhelming monster or have a bunch of whelps, or maybe an encounter the players can just barely squeeze through, but I don't think it should be used with the express purpose of making sure everything's a "fair fight" for the players at every level. Just for whatever the GM wants fighting them to feel like if the players decide to do so.
That's a good way of looking at it. I've just found for 3E specifically (and I've heard it's true of 5E as well) that the CR system, while perhaps well-intentioned, doesn't really work out mathematically. I've had so many times in my 3E game where my players just stomped over something that, according to the CR, should have been more challenging to them. While I can chalk part of that up to me as the DM not being a great tactician, I think in other cases it's just "off." Thank you for watching and commenting!
@@daddyrolleda1 I hear that a lot about CR too. Pathfinder Second Edition's version of it works pretty well but pretty much the entire system was designed around it, with levels being added to every stat. It's good for really intense action orientated games like this fantasy wild west one I've got going on, but less useful for open-world exploration focused games. For that I go Old-School.
So, there are some significant topics from this episode I'd like to touch on: 1. Balancing, whether we're talking OD&D, BD&D, AD&D 2-, D&D 3+, or any other TTRPG (Hero, GURPS, et al), is something you do at prep/design time and not on the fly at the table. If the party finds themselves on the losing side of their current adventure at the table then the game becomes one of survival and escape to regroup and heal to come back later and retry. If the GM chooses to drop an unwinnable encounter without signposting and without allowing any chance of averting disaster, that is their own failing not the players'. 2. Fudge it. Fudge it as much or as little as feels right. Never fudge it just in nor just against the players' favor. Fudging is a useful tool in the box when used right. That said, yeah session zero the topic because some players absolutely despise this style, even if it gets used correctly, and will walk. 3. Back when I was actively running D&D games, I always preferred the Hit Dice vs summed player characters, henchmen, and hirelings levels balance pivot rather than the GP and EXP vs summed levels pivot. 4. Level based on narrative point is very valid, and 16 sessions for 1 level isn't really too bad. I personally always liked to run with rules where you didn't gain the level until you'd spent some time training (1 month downtime per level, reduced if training with a higher level mentor) based on what you'd experienced to consciously refine how you perform your class or had gained 2 levels of EXP (no GP inclusion) without dedicated training time. That often ended up meaning 12+ sessions between leveling.
Ultimately, and I know people want the quick solution to stuff like this, the only real way I've found to manage this is experience. I know what my party can deal with, and work around that when creating a dungeon/adventure, or adapting a published one. One thing that helps is that if one of the players can't make it we postpone and the rest of us play something else, I have run dozens of games and generally have prepped starter sessions for at least two or three, stuff like Mythras, Cthulhu, West End's d6 Star Wars... so I know I'll always have the same set of characters to write for. But in any game I run, the players are trusting me to provide them with challenges that they are able to meet. Even if it is a very tough challenge and people die. Sometimes I get it wrong. Sometimes I make it far too easy, sometimes I make it way too heavy. When I make a mistake it has far more catastrophic potential than if a player character makes a mistake. When I can see that my mistake means that the next encounter in the path they are taking is far too heavy and that when creating it I didn't take into account how much resource depletion the previous encounters would have caused, I have no ethical "Play it As Written" dilemma. I just change it. It's fine for the players to suffer for their bad decisions, but they shouldn't have to cope with mine on top of that. Blaming them for engaging in the fight in the first place is an excuse used by too many DM to cover up that they wrote a bad encounter. Own it... you'll learn from it! It is perfectly fine to change anything as you are going through the adventure if you realise that it doesn't balance for the party. If you are running a published adventure, it's also fine to read through and check that your party is able to deal with what's in there and maybe drop the monsters down by one or two. If the module says 4 to 6 players, levels X to Y, is it the players job to make up the defecit, or the person running it? Does the module assume that if there are only 4 players rather than 6, that they would also hire retainers? Should your 2 or 3 member party hire a whole bunch of people? Got to be honest, never been a fan of hirelings other than to "guard the mules" back at the entrance and maybe one or two porters to help carry lanterns or haul the good stuff out of the dungeon. People complain about how long combat takes in D&D at the best of times. If you have a small group of players, adding a bunch NPCs to fight the prescribed number of monsters only slows down how often the players own characters get to act. The same outcome is achieved faster, and with more Player Character focus, by simply dropping a few orcs, or skeletons from the fight. And none of that is about protecting the players, it's about making sure that the challenge matches the characters. But bare in mind that genuine "Balance" doesn't exist within the game. Otherwise, on average, the PCs would lose every other fight, or fail every other mission.
Nice to hear from a fellow B/X player who *also* read the "Example of Play." Silverleaf was thinking fast on his feet, despite the Reaction Roll not going his way.
Yeah, it's a different style of play for sure. Hirelings and retainers have pretty much gone away in modern editions, but my daughter and her friends use them all the time in the B/X game I run for them!
I, too, do not really "balance" encounters. I just populate a world, make sure everything and everyone has its own moods, motivations, and/or goals, and let the party go whither they will. I try not to be too conspicuous with the hints and foreshadowing. I'm not too inclined to "fudge" die rolls; but, as that fifth paragraph of page 9 from the DMG 1e suggests, not letting random die rolls force a wandering/random encounter that doesn't makes sense or fit the flow at that particular time. The strong statement is on page 110, where Gary wrote: "You do have every right to overrule the dice at any time."
Absolutely. As you get farther into the video, you'll hear my talk about how my group of six players each had at least one hireling each when they entered the Orc Lair, and most of those hirelings died. But as I mention in the video, I also don't like this particular group to try to play two characters, because they are still relatively new to the game and that's a lot for them to try to handle. With a more experienced group, I'd allow it. Thanks for watching and commenting!
The only time I fudge dice is for such things as Random Encounters when the result makes no sense. Otherwise I roll out in the open (except for exploration type rolls like finding secret doors), including when I utilize my oracle table stolen from solo RPG games, which I use frequently and tell the players the exact odds.
Totally makes sense. A lot of times with random tables (including encounters) I won't even roll. I'll just pick quickly from the list from something that makes sense to the environment and that I feel I can adjudicate quickly on my feet. Thank you so much for commenting and for your support of the channel.
Dice: When I run games for players new to TTRPGs, I tell them the "story" is created by three elements collaborating: the GM, the players and the dice.
I agree with you as a principle for running the game, but knowing monsters balance with PCs is useful for scenario design. I'm working on an adventure now and I want there to be a monster near the adventure site that would be a tough but winnable fight, and I don't have enough experience with these older systems to just know what to use. Or if I go with a winter wolf, I would like to use rumors to telegraph to the players whether it's a winnable fight, but I have to know the answer myself first.
i just try to roughly match up the hit dice between the party and the monsters. doesn't always work perfectly but that's by design since i like when some combats are really tough but others are easier.
Thank you so much for this! I really appreciate you taking the time. I've recently learned that supposedly the UA-cam Algorithm is able to "read" and disregard comments like this, but who knows? I appreciate your support nonetheless!
I never should have played D&D 5e! Despite real successes running other games like Pendragon and Savage Worlds and Dungeon Crawl Classics, I now suffer from horrible self-doubt and non-initiative to be the Judge, and, so, I hardly ever run anything, because I’m “sure” the group will hate it. And our group doesn’t even play 5e! So now John’s the forever Judge who runs regular DCC from modules, and Jim’s the avid reader GM who’s continually trying to get us to try out something else before he loses interest in it and moves on to something completely different. They’re both very good running games, and I cherish my gaming group, but I want to develop a setting through sustained play in the oldschool fashion. But before we found John & company, Jim and I played with a 5e group for a few years, and it seems to have given me a complex, a general crisis of confidence.
I used to get 2-3 sinus infections per year in my adult years, but around 2008 - 2012, for whatever reason, they increased to about 4-6 times a year. I'd lose weeks of time for work, family, friends, etc. and be completely miserable with debilitating headaches, being unable to breathe through my nose and couldn't sleep at night. Finally went to an ENT and discovered I have "narrow nasal passages" combined with a deviated septum, when whenever any kind of external stimuli affects my sinuses, such as allergies or the common cold, my sinus seize up and trap everything inside, not allowing it to drain. So, fall and spring allergies are the bane of my existence. But I do have a steroid nasal spray that helps a lot.
@@daddyrolleda1 Yup, I was just at the ENT and she said the same thing about my nasal passages. They're too small. I'm not surprised. I've used flonase for years and it... helps a bit. I've heard about some procedures without massive recovery times that can help and hope she will tell me more about that.
Story (and player experience) trumps leveling. I gain agreement before starting that leveling comes after characters have learned to stretch their skills/abilities and really need new ways for character growth. Just like in real life. If you get more "ways" without effective experience (after training) then much is not used when it is most useful and people tend to stick to "favorite" tools. I have yet to hear a complaint about leveling speed, yet. The day is still young.
That's tough to answer without having better context of the players (their experience level, what parts of the game they enjoy the most, etc.) but my first inclination is to think that I would not reduce the number of orcs but instead make sure the players got plenty of information about how dangerous that lair is due to the number of orcs inside, and hear stories from other adventuring parties who barely made it out, etc. I'd increase the number of "want ads" by hirelings looking for work who post their ads on the message board, and I'd probably also increase the effectiveness (and the wages) of the hirelings. If, after all that, the two players decided to go it alone, then they'd probably quickly realize it was beyond their capabilities and then run away, if they survive their first encounter. But, that's just me. I know a lot of folks don't play that way and instead craft encounters that are "tough enough" but ultimately designed to be winnable by the PCs. And that's totally fine for folks who prefer to play that way!
I hate it as a player if I feel that the DM is curbing encounters or fudging rolls. Maybe because I started with Moldvay and died 30 minutes into my first game ever. I'm ok with my character dying -- if it looks bad for me, I try to think of a dramatic way I can die. Maybe I try to draw the band of orcs off to allow the rest of the party to escape. Or maybe I take the enemy down a pit with me.
I feel like you've accidentally sidestepped the question. The video is basically a long form statement of 'if it's premade I run it as it's written' and/or 'I dunno, I just put some guys in there and hopefully the players can figure out a way to win'. I'm not at the end of the video yet, so maybe that will chance, but I think people want to know your design process for throwing together a roughly 'winnable' encounter. 'about how many orcs can one fighter take? What level should the players be before I can expect them to be able to kill a dragon's, etc.
Ah! I see what you're saying. And sadly, no, I did not approach the video from that standpoint, but I can definitely see why you would have thought that's what I was going cover. I really apologize if the video let you down and didn't cover what you wanted. You do bring up a good point, though, and that's something I'd have to think about and perhaps it could be good fodder for either a follow-up video and even a revised version of this video. I do thank you very much for watching and commenting, and again, I hope it wasn't too disappointing. As I mentioned in the video, I really wasn't feeling well, and perhaps if I had been, I would've approached the subject in the manner you suggest.
Even modern 5e is garbage with it actually having a CR that is supposed to help make a balanced encounter. Usually I throw (#players +3) monsters and if the fight swings hard either way, I have monsters retreat (using logic of *those* guys can handle this) or call for reinforcements (we're getting shredded out here and need more goblins!) which makes a more dynamic battles and also has players feel like they got lucky (monsters retreat) or really accomplished something they shouldn't have (4 waves of extra baddies) for more enjoyment. Bosses and stuff is actually the most difficult, because I find it hard to introduce another 3 bosses when the party deletes the creature. I have done the "not my final form" deal, and you get to fight a bigger, badder boss because it didn't actually do anything notable with the round and a half it had.
I still enjoy that movie! I recently got to see it with a live orchestra over in Hollywood at the Kodak Theater (or whatever they are calling it now - the name changes all the time). My wife gave that to me as a Christmas gift.
We had players that were new to the game and wanted to fight everything they encountered. After dying several times we had to explain to them that fighting was not always the answer. And that they needed to think things through before they started a fight. Most turned out to be pretty good players.
How to balance DnD encounters. You can’t. Haven’t been able to since it’s inception. Don’t come at me with “challenge rating” because that is not an accurate measure. This is good stuff though.
I largely agree on your Challenge Rating comment. As a "Novice DM" when 3E came out (I was already in my very early 30's but I'd only tried to DM 2-3 times total), I found the *idea* of a Challenge Rating very helpful. I quickly found in execution that it didn't work. Now after ~25 years of running games, I have a much better handle on it from an experience perspective, but also as I mentioned in the video, I don't really try to make "balanced" encounters. I make encounters, and provide information to the players, and it's up to them it they want to try to engage with said encounter based on the knowledge they have gained and the reconnaissance they have done.
I love it! I was deeply involved in a 3rd Edition game, and I played a bit of 4th and 5th (but only a couple of times, each). When it came time to run the game for my daughter, I at first thought I'd run 5E because that was the current version, but the more I dug into it, but more I realized that I would have more fun running Basic, and also it would be fun for my daughter to start her D&D "career" with the same version I began with. Thank you for watching and commenting!
Of course people can choose to play in any way that makes them happy. But a dice-fudging DM has eliminated the "game" aspect of rpg and at that point we're doing some kind of collaborative story-telling.
Wait what? Balance is not thing. Especially in OSR style of play. Gygax is rolling over in his grave. If an encounter is too "hard", do what Gen X did and get good. Balance, cheat codes, God-mode' etc. are for cowards and quitters.
“It is the job of the DM to see that the situations and characters balance” - Gary Gygax, B2 The Keep on the Borderlands The OSR is inherently a revisionist movement, it’s not the same thing as the classical games Arneson and Gygax played in the 70’s and 80’s. It’s the distillation of the elements of old school play that accentuate agency, problem solving, tactical infinity, etc. Balance still exists even in the OSR, it’s just focused more on “preserving meaningful options” than making sure you can whack everything to death.
This is the only way to balance! Characters learn to gauge the situation and navigate through it, around it, or away from it.
Many times we have backed away from a fight or ran for our lives.
We once kept a horde of Orcs from attacking us by asking them in Orcish if they had seen a dragon flying nearby. The DM looked puzzled by this and my response was "Do you think that they would want to mess with a group hunting a dragon?" He thought about that and decided that they probably wouldn't want to attack us if we were that tough. So we talked our way out of that situation.
I used to fudge dice rolls back when I started playing 30 odd years ago, but have recently started DMing again (1ed Ad&d, currently foing a slightly modded version of B2 funnily enough) and now just follow the dice, which has actually been a bit of a revelation in the level of drama and unusual situations it has created.
Great content as ever.
Absolutely agree with your take on encounter balance. It's a crucial reminder that not every encounter is meant to be a fair fight. The beauty of TTRPGs lies in the unpredictability and the variety of solutions players can come up with-be it diplomacy, stealth, or outright confrontation. Encounters that challenge players to think on their feet, weigh their options, and sometimes choose to retreat or negotiate add depth and realism to the game. It's not always about winning the fight but how creatively and strategically players navigate challenges. Thanks for this insightful video, it really highlights the importance of dynamic storytelling over a one-size-fits-all approach to encounters.
There are very few, if any "Fair Fights" in D&D otherwise no party would ever get to third level, you'd statistically lose every other fight.
Even if the big final encounter in a dungeon is genuinely "fair" half the party should die.
Unbalanced encounters is what makes the OG game so fun. You could easily get in over your head if you make an unwise decision. It means you can't just hack your way through everything.
True but there are degrees and degrees. It’s not generally a good thing if the DM doesn’t actually know what the encounter will be like.
Counterpoint: randomly losing your character because the DM decided to throw a BS encounter at you is pretty unfun. I'm OK with that if there's proper warning, or it's common sense, or it's the players' fault for poking the sleeping dragon, but just throwing unbeatable enemies at the party is little different from Dropping Rocks on them.
@@crimfan It's the player choice to fight or flee. Of course a DM out to get you will.
@@CantusTropus That's just a DM issue. Players have the choice to fight or flee most of the time.
@@swirvinbirds1971 " It's the player choice to fight or flee. Of course a DM out to get you will."
Maybe, maybe not. Sometimes there are things that just end up getting messed up by miscommunication among the players or the DM not understanding things. I'm trying to suggest that having some additional information can be very useful for newer DMs who don't have the kind of fingerspitzengefühl that an experienced one will have.
Both 3.X and 4E went way, way too far in the direction of "DM proofing" but I totally get why they did what they did.
My players (daughter and friend) are not afraid of PC death. She asked for a funnel to start. The funnel part I expect about 25% death. Also, they will have a pool of four PCs each and play kind of a west march style.
I don't fudge. If their actions don't warrant a role I won't roll, i.e. "I use a mirror to check behind..." And there is a trip wire there, they find it.
Agree with the rest of your video.
"We're, um, looking for Scabs."
Barkeep: "....Ew!"
"No I mean we're here to meet a guy by that name."
Barkeep: "Still 'Ew'"
Ha! Yeah, I tried to find a good picture to depict him and mentioned how his face was covered with pockmarks. He became a favorite of the players despite his shady history and appearance!
I do have to credit Professor Dungeon Master from DungeonCraft for coming up with that name!
I always think its important to teach the younger generation RPGs, your doing good work.
I appreciate that. Thank you!
“Listen to Your Players” is key advice. I was running the OSE module “Winter’s Daughter” because i knew my players would like the fey elements. However, there’s quite a bit of dungeon exploring and my players were saying how they didn’t like dungeons because they’re “lonely and boring”. So I added some additional NPCs and made the encounters far more talkative. They ended up having discussions with ghosts and a dance competition against some snooty fey lords. That’s okay in OSR games because you don’t rely on combat for XP. In the end the adventure had one fight that lasted about four rounds until the enemy fled.
Oh wow - what a fantastic way to handle that adventure for your players! I love hearing stories like this. Thanks for watching, commenting, and sharing. I appreciate it. Cheers!
First, I love all your videos.
Second, The Land of Eem actually takes the monster reaction table concept and makes it the mechanic for the entire game.
Thank you so much! You were my earliest supporter of the channel, I think!
And thanks for that. With being sick and dealing with family issues, I am way behind on watching videos from my favorite fellow creators (such as you). But I have just rectified that!
@@daddyrolleda1 hope you get well soon!
Trying! I had a teledoc appointment last Wednesday evening who prescribed antibiotics. I just finished my course yesterday. My nose is still very stuffy but my cough has gotten better.
Way better advice than those big channels that use catchy straplines instead of odvices
Those people are insufferable.
Thank you so much for saying that. Clearly they are doing something right to have gotten so many followers, but I'm just going to keep doing what I'm doing. One thing you don't have to worry about is me covering the latest WotC/5E "controversy" because I don't play 5E. I follow the news, but I've learned it's not really relevant to the vast majority of my viewers.
Get well soon! I loved this video (as always), and did not find it rambling at all. I love that you present a theory and then give lots of fun specific stories to illustrate your point. And I totally agree about not adjusting danger to fit character count or level (as long as everyone knows how dangerous stuff is, of course). But one thing I want to push back on is, I do hear people say "it's a game, not a story" to support that point, as you did here. I do get that perspective, but personally I think it's the other way around. In other words, not adjusting danger level is actually what makes the experience feel even more like a fun and exciting story, as your examples beautifully illustrate. The dragon is the dragon, and it is super scary to get anywhere near its cave when you are lower level. THAT is a story experience, to me. It's an emotional, immersive experience. In fact, having things adjusted to your level is what would feel more like a game, if that makes sense (not that there is anything wrong with that). Anyhow, thanks again for the awesome video, and I hope you feel better soon!!! (Also, those oranges are super common in the country I live in, so it was fun to see one!)
Thank you very much. I am feeling better each day, but still not 100%.
I do take your point about story. For me, the story emerges from the game play and from the decisions made by the players. But I think we're kind of talking about the same thing, but using different language/words to do so.
In any event, I'm so happy you enjoyed the video. And once again, I thank you for watching through to the end to see the bonus content. I have fun adding that little personal touch to my videos and always appreciate when someone watches it.
If you’re reading this and you’re not sure what to comment, just comment “ I love all the videos from Daddy Rolled a 1!”
Thank you!
I appreciate this video. I'm just starting to learn OSR D&D and appreciate the DM advice from people like yourself who have been playing it and running games for years.
I'm about to start running Keep on the Borderlands with my daughter who is also new to OSR D&D. She's the only one who wants to play. So I'm having her run three characters. I'm going to run two retainers. So, because she's new and she's already running three characters and I'm running two retainers, I figured I would reduce the number of creatures. I'm thinking probably by half + one. So if there's nine creatures I would only have five attack at once.
Thank you so much! I'm so glad you found the channel and I appreciate your support!
It sounds like you're doing the right thing in terms of knowing your player(s) and how your daughter, running three characters, might need to have the number of monsters adjusted. I do hope that she will be able to find some other friends to play with, but as a dad running a game for his own daughter, I can tell you that it's a special time for us and I love putting in the time and effort for her. As she's gotten older, especially, we have fewer and fewer things in common, but D&D is something where we know we'll have scheduled time to hang out (with her friends) but also it's part of our Dad/Daughter time.
D&D Dads Unite! Best of luck in your game, and please feel free to share how your game is going and/or ask questions either here on via my social media channels.
@@daddyrolleda1 Thanks for the advice and encouragement. I just followed you on Twitter. I'll let you know how our first campaign is going.
Easiest way to balance encounters in D&D: Play 4e. If you use the standard number and levels of monsters (1 per party member of same level) the party will be able to go 3-6 encounters between extended rests before they run out of the resources needed to forge on. And if you want to make things easier or harder, just add or remove monsters or levels. The math is so simple that it makes designing balanced (or very easy or very difficult) encounters effortless so you can spend more time on other things like making the encounter interesting and fun, or creative storytelling and plot and flavor and developing characters and not as much time on math just to achieve "balance." The balance is baked in.
I'm right there with you on the allergies. Good luck.
Crimson Jester
"When the buffalo fight, small animals get trampled." This is why powerful characters (and monsters) run into fewer and fewer unpowerful creatures.They steer clear for survival, or not.
Thank you for the insights!
Great video. UA-cam you better treat Daddy Martin right.
Ha! That means a lot! Thank you very much. I really appreciate your support.
Feels like you did a great job in ruling and balancing to me! I only hide things behind a die roll if I feel it needs to be a challenge or roadblock. Otherwise if it makes sense or pushes story forward it is degree of success or just allow it.
Thumbs up for using morale and reaction!
This is my algorithm friendly comment, and I love your content!
I actually heard recently that the algorithm specifically ignores all comments that contain the word algorithm. Which must really be unfortunate for UA-cam channels that are all about how you build algorithms for computer programming.
I didn't balance the encounters back in BECMI or AD&D, relying mostly on the "dungeon level" tab to evaluate how hard a creature would have been for the party.
The issue of balance became a thing with third edition, which did it poorly too. I was often disappointed about how botched the challenge rating was, usually overestimating a creature's dangerousness by a lot, which resulted in far easier encounters than anticipated.
So since 3.5 I simply ignored CR, put whatever number and type of enemy I wanted in an adventure and used my personal model of free form experience instead. Players had once again to use their brains to overcome challenges, because blindingly attacking everything didn't work anymore. Not that often anyway.
And since I tend to improvise a lot, this kind of way works a lot better for me.
About fudging dice, I did sometimes when I first started DMing, but I stopped very soon, when BECMI was still around. I found that the real results can be a lot more fun than any fudged one, so since then all my rolls are made in the open before the players.
Great takes.
Thank you! I appreciate that, and also appreciate your support of the channel. Cheers.
Oh yeah!! Good stuff
Thanks for pushing through the sniffles to put this out!
I appreciate that! Thank you very much, and thanks for your support of the channel. Cheers!
No need to apologize for championing through adverse conditions. This was another excellent video on a fascinating topic.
I love rolling in the open! And I love the old school procedures for randomizing stuff. Plus I use simple dice roll oracle when in doubt as well as different random tables for all kinds of things.
I've seen such cool things happen when PCs end up way over their heads. The solutions can be so cool and I also generally like it when there ends up being a social situation with a baddie.
In my experience there just isn't the kind of emergent play in 5e or other modern systems because the system tends to come in the way while in OSR systems the mechanics actually promote surprising situations and out of the box solutions.
I'm also really eager to try my new escape/chase mechanic for OSR. Simple, old school and flavorful if I may say so myself 😁
Thank you so much for your support, as always! I truly appreciate it!
And, I'd love to hear more about your escape/chase mechanics!
@@daddyrolleda1
1.Reaction roll (if not in combat)
2.Fleeing from melee/initiative (if applicable)
3.Morale roll (will they pursue? Roll again if dungeon exited)
4.Escape roll:
2d6: 7 or higher = escape successful
Nat 2 = escape fail (move up to speed)
Nat 12 = escape success
Escape speed = 3 x speed /rnd
Failed escape = Escape roll - 1d4 rnds
Modifiers:
-3 to +3 speed difference
+ str/dex mod of slowest escapee
+1 to +3 distraction/tactics
+1 to +3 for smart use of environment
+1 to +3 if pursuers have a bigger group
Int/wis check or wrong turn taken in a complex dungeon.
Distractions: dropping treasure, food etc; dropping caltrops, marbles, oil etc (burning oil forces a ML check).
Pursuers can send part of their group ahead. Slower pursuers catch up in 1d4 + group size mod rnds (max the length of escape) if the escapees are held fighting.
DM can roll secretly or openly and narrate round by round so escapees can use distraction means as needed.
@@daddyrolleda1 There. I'm only beginning to play test it. I'm happy for any and all feedback.
Looks very interesting! I'd have to see it in play to see how smooth it runs. Have you playtested it yet? It looks like a lot of moving parts but I suspect once a person ran it a few times it would go pretty fast. That's one of the things I always struggle with when running chases: I want the action of play to speed up and be tense, so I try to keep my chase mechanics very minimal so we don't get bogged down in rules.
@@daddyrolleda1 I've actually only run it once 😅 I'm too flaky, but I have to give it some more goes before trying in a game. For PCs chasing monsters I would likely just roll a simple d6 ruling the success range based on the situation. For a long time I've felt what's really needed is having PCs flee, having a relatively simple quick resolution giving the players an opportunity to make some decisions and benefit from equipping themselves with caltrops, marbles etc. and even deciding to drop a backpack if it gets really tight.
I did try to make it rely on rule of thumb kind of rulings which is why the modifiers are in the hands of the DM based on what kinds of decisions players make. Also trying to keep it as simple as I could by just rolling the escape check once. Ofc situationally there can be morale and even reaction check if you go all the way from the beginning of the encounter.
I'm very happy to receive more feedback of something comes to mind or if you even decide to try it out. My main worry is it's too easy but then it can be adjusted easily.
The party should know that sometimes it will be overmatched, and that there are any number of ways to handle any encounter -- often combat will be the worst or at least the most risky.
Definitely. My daughter's group is very big on trying to avoid combat unless absolutely necessary. We also play with resource management, so they look at it from the standpoint that combat uses up resources (including hit points, spells, and light) that might be detrimental later on if they don't have them.
I used to occasionally fudge my dice rolls, but now that I run my game online it is not so easy to do so. Even so, the players still accuse me of cheating. I run my games as a semi-guided sandbox and we all very much enjoy the very unexpected paths they choose, even if it leads to some horrible end. Hearing your methods is great. I am currently working on adding the old Reactions Table into my game.
I hear there is a super-bloom or such out there in California and hope it does not keep you from getting better quickly!
Great video, as always. Hope you'll get better soon.
My players are a bit new to dnd especially OSE, so I kept struggling to convey if the encounter is hard or not.
Eg. They have just beat a bunch of zombies with ease, but they are now facing a smaller group of ghouls. Well, it shouldn't be that hard?
Few paralization save later, and now they know.
It is quite a challenge to just not openly tell them: I think you should just run.
And crossing my fingers so they either find a way or make a good call.
In addition, 2 of the 4 players seem mostly interested in combat. So I tried to set it up, so that they could have a fair figth from time to time.
Great vid. Thanks
Thank you very much for watching and commenting. I really appreciate it!
Great video, as usual!
I hope you feel better soon.
The art on that old school essentials tome is perfect
I’ve had horrible allergies since I was a kid. They got better once I started going to an allergy doctor, mine would turn into sinus infections too, very fast. Use Flonase, also if you feel a sinus infection coming on flush your nose out with salt water. Take Zicam right away that helps. I do everything to not get a sinus infection. I feel your pain. Thank you for the video. Lots of good info.
Great content as usual!
awesome! thx much!
Thank YOU for watching and commenting! I hope you found it helpful and/or interesting. Cheers!
Hirelings sound like a good idea when running a level 1 team
Absolutely! I like to roleplay the hiring of them and see the PCs realize that putting CHA as their dump stat was maybe not a great idea!
I helped the players understand that hiring people was common by having potential hirelings post "want ads" on the message board (the one I show in the video).
"Who's that?"
"Vicki Vale."
🦇
I recently got to see it in the theater with a live orchestra (birthday gift from my wife) here in Hollywood. I still enjoy Keaton's performance and Tim Burton aesthetic for Gotham City!
I used to fudge dice a lot, but now I never do. Let the dice fall where they may. I'm of a similar opinion to that blog post you mentioned that these are games, not stories, and games have rules and goals, and rolling dice are part of those. The dice aren't just there for klik-klak math rocks, they're there to be oracles to tell us all how things shake out.
24:22 oh we're totally sending the B-Team straight in to handle the light work 🙂😎.
In a very experimental game I'm running, I've been rolling d100s at the beginning and end of every session but not telling the players why until recently. It's supposed to be a measure of how badly the walls to the city they're in are being attacked by monsters, with lower numbers being worse, I got a 7 on the last one and the threshold for things to get really bad is anything in the single digits.
So the players are really underlevelled for what's pretty much a Helm's Deep style of fight, so to compensate I've added both a few more NPC defenders and traps, but also something I called the "Havoc Meter". Where the further the enemies get into the defenses, the stronger reinforcements will show up for both the players and enemies. Ironically the more havoc the better it is for the players, because enemy reinforcements are just bigger numbers on the base monsters, but friendly reinforcements are basically scaled like players are, so if things get really bad something with the stats and abilities of an endgame PC helps them, this is both to show them how strong they can become later, but also for worldbuilding purposes.
If they wipe to the fight, I've got an idea to turn it into a sort of survival scenario instead of just killing them off, where they need to either sneak past all the monsters back to safety or hide out and keep fighting a guerilla battle until enough support arrives to turn the tide.
The players of the game (whichever one) are a great source of ideas and never fail to surprise you at least once per session, the hard thing is to work the surpise into the story so it looks like it was intended all along.... Do not worry about a perfect balance, just have an exit plan that the players can use if the going gets too tough (like the trap door) or in my case, one of the players managed to charm a local cleric, who when things were looking bleak, turned up along with some locals armed with pichforks and torches and rescued the players (I do not like TPK), they survived to see the local temple use all the treasure, ( that they assumed would be theirs), to feed all the poor commision some paintings to adorn the temple, and new golden religious symbols fixed to the walls. The cleric is still under the charm effect, the players still in the debt of the temple.
More thought provoking stuff.
And get well soon.
A guy I knew from the Navy got that symbol as a tattoo. Such a long time ago!
"not feeling good, gonna just do a short video"... busts out 46 minutes of content.
Well played, sir
Good Video
Things like CR and monster level can be helpful for quickly figuring out how strong or weak something is if you do specifically want to make an overwhelming monster or have a bunch of whelps, or maybe an encounter the players can just barely squeeze through, but I don't think it should be used with the express purpose of making sure everything's a "fair fight" for the players at every level. Just for whatever the GM wants fighting them to feel like if the players decide to do so.
That's a good way of looking at it. I've just found for 3E specifically (and I've heard it's true of 5E as well) that the CR system, while perhaps well-intentioned, doesn't really work out mathematically. I've had so many times in my 3E game where my players just stomped over something that, according to the CR, should have been more challenging to them. While I can chalk part of that up to me as the DM not being a great tactician, I think in other cases it's just "off."
Thank you for watching and commenting!
@@daddyrolleda1 I hear that a lot about CR too. Pathfinder Second Edition's version of it works pretty well but pretty much the entire system was designed around it, with levels being added to every stat. It's good for really intense action orientated games like this fantasy wild west one I've got going on, but less useful for open-world exploration focused games. For that I go Old-School.
So, there are some significant topics from this episode I'd like to touch on:
1. Balancing, whether we're talking OD&D, BD&D, AD&D 2-, D&D 3+, or any other TTRPG (Hero, GURPS, et al), is something you do at prep/design time and not on the fly at the table. If the party finds themselves on the losing side of their current adventure at the table then the game becomes one of survival and escape to regroup and heal to come back later and retry. If the GM chooses to drop an unwinnable encounter without signposting and without allowing any chance of averting disaster, that is their own failing not the players'.
2. Fudge it. Fudge it as much or as little as feels right. Never fudge it just in nor just against the players' favor. Fudging is a useful tool in the box when used right. That said, yeah session zero the topic because some players absolutely despise this style, even if it gets used correctly, and will walk.
3. Back when I was actively running D&D games, I always preferred the Hit Dice vs summed player characters, henchmen, and hirelings levels balance pivot rather than the GP and EXP vs summed levels pivot.
4. Level based on narrative point is very valid, and 16 sessions for 1 level isn't really too bad. I personally always liked to run with rules where you didn't gain the level until you'd spent some time training (1 month downtime per level, reduced if training with a higher level mentor) based on what you'd experienced to consciously refine how you perform your class or had gained 2 levels of EXP (no GP inclusion) without dedicated training time. That often ended up meaning 12+ sessions between leveling.
Ultimately, and I know people want the quick solution to stuff like this, the only real way I've found to manage this is experience. I know what my party can deal with, and work around that when creating a dungeon/adventure, or adapting a published one.
One thing that helps is that if one of the players can't make it we postpone and the rest of us play something else, I have run dozens of games and generally have prepped starter sessions for at least two or three, stuff like Mythras, Cthulhu, West End's d6 Star Wars... so I know I'll always have the same set of characters to write for.
But in any game I run, the players are trusting me to provide them with challenges that they are able to meet. Even if it is a very tough challenge and people die.
Sometimes I get it wrong. Sometimes I make it far too easy, sometimes I make it way too heavy. When I make a mistake it has far more catastrophic potential than if a player character makes a mistake. When I can see that my mistake means that the next encounter in the path they are taking is far too heavy and that when creating it I didn't take into account how much resource depletion the previous encounters would have caused, I have no ethical "Play it As Written" dilemma. I just change it.
It's fine for the players to suffer for their bad decisions, but they shouldn't have to cope with mine on top of that.
Blaming them for engaging in the fight in the first place is an excuse used by too many DM to cover up that they wrote a bad encounter. Own it... you'll learn from it!
It is perfectly fine to change anything as you are going through the adventure if you realise that it doesn't balance for the party.
If you are running a published adventure, it's also fine to read through and check that your party is able to deal with what's in there and maybe drop the monsters down by one or two. If the module says 4 to 6 players, levels X to Y, is it the players job to make up the defecit, or the person running it? Does the module assume that if there are only 4 players rather than 6, that they would also hire retainers? Should your 2 or 3 member party hire a whole bunch of people?
Got to be honest, never been a fan of hirelings other than to "guard the mules" back at the entrance and maybe one or two porters to help carry lanterns or haul the good stuff out of the dungeon.
People complain about how long combat takes in D&D at the best of times. If you have a small group of players, adding a bunch NPCs to fight the prescribed number of monsters only slows down how often the players own characters get to act. The same outcome is achieved faster, and with more Player Character focus, by simply dropping a few orcs, or skeletons from the fight.
And none of that is about protecting the players, it's about making sure that the challenge matches the characters.
But bare in mind that genuine "Balance" doesn't exist within the game. Otherwise, on average, the PCs would lose every other fight, or fail every other mission.
"It's okay, Gary sent us."
Nice to hear from a fellow B/X player who *also* read the "Example of Play." Silverleaf was thinking fast on his feet, despite the Reaction Roll not going his way.
I feel like a lot of those who have only experienced WotC stuff tend to either forget or be flat out unaware that hirelings are a thing.
Yeah, it's a different style of play for sure. Hirelings and retainers have pretty much gone away in modern editions, but my daughter and her friends use them all the time in the B/X game I run for them!
I, too, do not really "balance" encounters. I just populate a world, make sure everything and everyone has its own moods, motivations, and/or goals, and let the party go whither they will. I try not to be too conspicuous with the hints and foreshadowing.
I'm not too inclined to "fudge" die rolls; but, as that fifth paragraph of page 9 from the DMG 1e suggests, not letting random die rolls force a wandering/random encounter that doesn't makes sense or fit the flow at that particular time. The strong statement is on page 110, where Gary wrote: "You do have every right to overrule the dice at any time."
You can always balance things out by allowing players to have more than 1 character or bring along henchmen or some hirelings.
Absolutely. As you get farther into the video, you'll hear my talk about how my group of six players each had at least one hireling each when they entered the Orc Lair, and most of those hirelings died. But as I mention in the video, I also don't like this particular group to try to play two characters, because they are still relatively new to the game and that's a lot for them to try to handle. With a more experienced group, I'd allow it.
Thanks for watching and commenting!
The only time I fudge dice is for such things as Random Encounters when the result makes no sense. Otherwise I roll out in the open (except for exploration type rolls like finding secret doors), including when I utilize my oracle table stolen from solo RPG games, which I use frequently and tell the players the exact odds.
Totally makes sense. A lot of times with random tables (including encounters) I won't even roll. I'll just pick quickly from the list from something that makes sense to the environment and that I feel I can adjudicate quickly on my feet.
Thank you so much for commenting and for your support of the channel.
Dice: When I run games for players new to TTRPGs, I tell them the "story" is created by three elements collaborating: the GM, the players and the dice.
I agree with you as a principle for running the game, but knowing monsters balance with PCs is useful for scenario design. I'm working on an adventure now and I want there to be a monster near the adventure site that would be a tough but winnable fight, and I don't have enough experience with these older systems to just know what to use. Or if I go with a winter wolf, I would like to use rumors to telegraph to the players whether it's a winnable fight, but I have to know the answer myself first.
i just try to roughly match up the hit dice between the party and the monsters. doesn't always work perfectly but that's by design since i like when some combats are really tough but others are easier.
For the algorithm
Thank you so much for this! I really appreciate you taking the time. I've recently learned that supposedly the UA-cam Algorithm is able to "read" and disregard comments like this, but who knows? I appreciate your support nonetheless!
34:50 the conversation started, sir I've been trying to reach you about your car's extended warranty 😀😃😄.
👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼
Thank you very much!
CR math in the recent editions is quite bleh. Having good skills as a DM is very necessary.
I never should have played D&D 5e! Despite real successes running other games like Pendragon and Savage Worlds and Dungeon Crawl Classics, I now suffer from horrible self-doubt and non-initiative to be the Judge, and, so, I hardly ever run anything, because I’m “sure” the group will hate it. And our group doesn’t even play 5e! So now John’s the forever Judge who runs regular DCC from modules, and Jim’s the avid reader GM who’s continually trying to get us to try out something else before he loses interest in it and moves on to something completely different. They’re both very good running games, and I cherish my gaming group, but I want to develop a setting through sustained play in the oldschool fashion. But before we found John & company, Jim and I played with a 5e group for a few years, and it seems to have given me a complex, a general crisis of confidence.
I had the nuclear sinus infection in January/February. Ugh.
I used to get 2-3 sinus infections per year in my adult years, but around 2008 - 2012, for whatever reason, they increased to about 4-6 times a year. I'd lose weeks of time for work, family, friends, etc. and be completely miserable with debilitating headaches, being unable to breathe through my nose and couldn't sleep at night. Finally went to an ENT and discovered I have "narrow nasal passages" combined with a deviated septum, when whenever any kind of external stimuli affects my sinuses, such as allergies or the common cold, my sinus seize up and trap everything inside, not allowing it to drain. So, fall and spring allergies are the bane of my existence. But I do have a steroid nasal spray that helps a lot.
@@daddyrolleda1 Yup, I was just at the ENT and she said the same thing about my nasal passages. They're too small. I'm not surprised. I've used flonase for years and it... helps a bit. I've heard about some procedures without massive recovery times that can help and hope she will tell me more about that.
Story (and player experience) trumps leveling. I gain agreement before starting that leveling comes after characters have learned to stretch their skills/abilities and really need new ways for character growth. Just like in real life. If you get more "ways" without effective experience (after training) then much is not used when it is most useful and people tend to stick to "favorite" tools. I have yet to hear a complaint about leveling speed, yet. The day is still young.
so would not lower the number of orcs if is was only a 2 player game?
That's tough to answer without having better context of the players (their experience level, what parts of the game they enjoy the most, etc.) but my first inclination is to think that I would not reduce the number of orcs but instead make sure the players got plenty of information about how dangerous that lair is due to the number of orcs inside, and hear stories from other adventuring parties who barely made it out, etc. I'd increase the number of "want ads" by hirelings looking for work who post their ads on the message board, and I'd probably also increase the effectiveness (and the wages) of the hirelings. If, after all that, the two players decided to go it alone, then they'd probably quickly realize it was beyond their capabilities and then run away, if they survive their first encounter.
But, that's just me. I know a lot of folks don't play that way and instead craft encounters that are "tough enough" but ultimately designed to be winnable by the PCs. And that's totally fine for folks who prefer to play that way!
Ah yeah that all works. I asked in part becasue I am in a group with just 2 players, so we are 2 pc each. @@daddyrolleda1
I hate it as a player if I feel that the DM is curbing encounters or fudging rolls. Maybe because I started with Moldvay and died 30 minutes into my first game ever. I'm ok with my character dying -- if it looks bad for me, I try to think of a dramatic way I can die. Maybe I try to draw the band of orcs off to allow the rest of the party to escape. Or maybe I take the enemy down a pit with me.
What - doesn't everyone else use the White Dwarf Monstermark system to balance their encounters? /s
I feel like you've accidentally sidestepped the question. The video is basically a long form statement of 'if it's premade I run it as it's written' and/or 'I dunno, I just put some guys in there and hopefully the players can figure out a way to win'.
I'm not at the end of the video yet, so maybe that will chance, but I think people want to know your design process for throwing together a roughly 'winnable' encounter. 'about how many orcs can one fighter take? What level should the players be before I can expect them to be able to kill a dragon's, etc.
Ah! I see what you're saying. And sadly, no, I did not approach the video from that standpoint, but I can definitely see why you would have thought that's what I was going cover. I really apologize if the video let you down and didn't cover what you wanted.
You do bring up a good point, though, and that's something I'd have to think about and perhaps it could be good fodder for either a follow-up video and even a revised version of this video.
I do thank you very much for watching and commenting, and again, I hope it wasn't too disappointing. As I mentioned in the video, I really wasn't feeling well, and perhaps if I had been, I would've approached the subject in the manner you suggest.
Even modern 5e is garbage with it actually having a CR that is supposed to help make a balanced encounter. Usually I throw (#players +3) monsters and if the fight swings hard either way, I have monsters retreat (using logic of *those* guys can handle this) or call for reinforcements (we're getting shredded out here and need more goblins!) which makes a more dynamic battles and also has players feel like they got lucky (monsters retreat) or really accomplished something they shouldn't have (4 waves of extra baddies) for more enjoyment. Bosses and stuff is actually the most difficult, because I find it hard to introduce another 3 bosses when the party deletes the creature. I have done the "not my final form" deal, and you get to fight a bigger, badder boss because it didn't actually do anything notable with the round and a half it had.
A kaiju attacks.
But we're level 1.
So?
"I try to talk to it."
@@daddyrolleda1 Typical murder hobos strat! Feh!
Hell ya burton Batman!
I still enjoy that movie! I recently got to see it with a live orchestra over in Hollywood at the Kodak Theater (or whatever they are calling it now - the name changes all the time). My wife gave that to me as a Christmas gift.
That sounds super cool!
We had players that were new to the game and wanted to fight everything they encountered. After dying several times we had to explain to them that fighting was not always the answer. And that they needed to think things through before they started a fight. Most turned out to be pretty good players.
How to balance DnD encounters.
You can’t. Haven’t been able to since it’s inception.
Don’t come at me with “challenge rating” because that is not an accurate measure.
This is good stuff though.
I largely agree on your Challenge Rating comment. As a "Novice DM" when 3E came out (I was already in my very early 30's but I'd only tried to DM 2-3 times total), I found the *idea* of a Challenge Rating very helpful. I quickly found in execution that it didn't work.
Now after ~25 years of running games, I have a much better handle on it from an experience perspective, but also as I mentioned in the video, I don't really try to make "balanced" encounters. I make encounters, and provide information to the players, and it's up to them it they want to try to engage with said encounter based on the knowledge they have gained and the reconnaissance they have done.
Not a great movie, but I still have Batman Forever soundtrack on CD
Oh wow! I have Batman and Batman Returns on CD, but stopped collecting the music after those two.
Honestly, I kinda miss the old basic dnd. It was just cleaner in my opinion
I love it! I was deeply involved in a 3rd Edition game, and I played a bit of 4th and 5th (but only a couple of times, each). When it came time to run the game for my daughter, I at first thought I'd run 5E because that was the current version, but the more I dug into it, but more I realized that I would have more fun running Basic, and also it would be fun for my daughter to start her D&D "career" with the same version I began with.
Thank you for watching and commenting!
Do not balance D&D encounters.
Of course people can choose to play in any way that makes them happy. But a dice-fudging DM has eliminated the "game" aspect of rpg and at that point we're doing some kind of collaborative story-telling.
Wait what? Balance is not thing. Especially in OSR style of play. Gygax is rolling over in his grave. If an encounter is too "hard", do what Gen X did and get good. Balance, cheat codes, God-mode' etc. are for cowards and quitters.
“It is the job of the DM to see that the situations and characters balance”
- Gary Gygax, B2 The Keep on the Borderlands
The OSR is inherently a revisionist movement, it’s not the same thing as the classical games Arneson and Gygax played in the 70’s and 80’s. It’s the distillation of the elements of old school play that accentuate agency, problem solving, tactical infinity, etc.
Balance still exists even in the OSR, it’s just focused more on “preserving meaningful options” than making sure you can whack everything to death.