The mass-murderer who never was
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- Опубліковано 9 сер 2023
- Jeremy Fielding, Estefannie and Inés Dawson face a question about some frustrating forensics.
LATERAL is a weekly podcast about interesting questions and even more interesting answers, hosted by Tom Scott. For business enquiries, contestant appearances or question submissions, visit www.lateralcast.com
GUESTS:
Jeremy Fielding: @JeremyFieldingSr, / jeremy_fielding
Estefannie: @Estefannie, / estefanniegg
Inés Dawson: @DrawCuriosity, / ineslauradawson
HOST: Tom Scott.
QUESTION PRODUCER: David Bodycombe.
RECORDED AT: The Podcast Studios, Dublin.
EDITED BY: Julie Hassett.
GRAPHICS: Chris Hanel at Support Class. Assistant: Dillon Pentz.
MUSIC: Karl-Ola Kjellholm ('Private Detective'/'Agrumes', courtesy of epidemicsound.com).
FORMAT: Pad 26 Limited/Labyrinth Games Ltd.
EXECUTIVE PRODUCERS: David Bodycombe and Tom Scott.
© Pad 26 Limited (www.pad26.com) / Labyrinth Games Ltd. 2023. - Розваги
It should be mentioned that the swaps weren't sold to be used for DNA sampling. They were sold as anti-viral, but not DNA free. But the agencies bought the cheapest swaps without properly looking at the use-cases
Swabs?
@@punkdigerati Sticks with cotton on the end for collection of material.
@@wilfriedklaebeOP said "swaps".
@@colmwhateveryoulike3240 oh, seems I just read over that (to me) obvious typo 😅
i haven't heard that detail before..
that makes it more... uhmm.. unsettling
I used to work for a company that made DNA kits (among other things). Thay also sold them to the police. Those ones were created under extra precautions and all people involved were background-checked and their DNA was put into the police database in case that the kit was contaminated anyway (IIRC 1 in 10 000 was). They were joking that they could commit perfect crimes, because a DNA match would be disregarded as contamination.
Yes, of course they were joking. Of course.
That is the plot line of Minority Report
I would assume that if their DNA showed up, they would retest with a DNA kit from a different company to verify whether the match came from the kit or from the evidence 🤔
@@ernestoyepez5103Man, I hated that movie. They literally had a perfect way to stop murders from happening and they threw it away. Hey, couldn’t we compromise and still stop horrible deaths from occurring? “No! Because freedom!”
Thanks to Scott team for doing superb captions. Your standards are the highest in youtube and even broadcast. We notice you.
They are fantastic and I'm sad that it's not something anyone else I watch tries to match.
I believe he pays for a service where people do it for you- I'm surprised more people don't hire them, because at least whoever's doing them for Tom Scott is incredible
@@inplfw I'm sad that UA-cam got rid of user-generated captions. I used to correct mistakes in autocaption all the time, especially things in my specific difficult-to-understand accent.
Gold standard, for sure. Adding my thanks
@@RippertearEveryone should hire Caption+! caption.plus
This is the first time I knew the answer right away. A friend of mine even guessed the topic just from the title of the video. One of my favourite stories about what can go wrong when you use even slightly wrong tools without anybody noticing.
This reminds me of my childhood... My dad was a solicitor defending criminals so he'd often go to crime scenes and photograph them (and submit the photos as evidence). And sometimes he'd be looking after me at the time. So many photos from the mid 1980s of crime scenes in Kent would get a small girl in a red coat popping up and posing.... I really wish he had kept the photos. Would make a great art exhibition.
Would it be at all possible for you to ask the police department or whomever would be in possession of those (if you happen to know), for them to send a copy of those pictures to you?
@@Saad-A16 Ha, neat idea but no. It would be the courts that hold onto the evidence presented I think. A brief look at the website for document retention would indicate that this was all so far in the past, the documents would have been (or maybe should have been) destroyed by now. Besides which of course 1) being British I could never make a fuss and 2) my experience trying to get my own NHS records (and failing) makes me doubt the capacity exists.
In awe of how exotic and colorful Estefannie's room is
sarcasm? 😅
Much cleaner and better organized than mine.
@@punklejunk really? I look at that room, and I'm like I couldn't find where _anything_ is
She's just moved to a new state, not sure if that's her old place or the new one.
I can't imagine how frustrating that would be, if you were one of the investigators, and had nearly 40 crimes from different countries all linked to the same person, but never being able to find them.
And while hunting this person, they discover all other kinds of crime. There is a potential TV show in there.
This reminds me of a story, perhaps apocryphal, of a rookie at NYPD who as part of his orientation was supposed to review old cases that hadn't gone to trial yet. He found a large number of cases tied to a Fnu Lnu. As he continued to read he was more and more surprised this guy wasn't picked up and charged, and eventually asked a supervisor, who burst into laughter, and explained that FNU, LNU stood for first name unknown, last name unknown.
This seems to check out: www.nytimes.com/2019/04/12/nyregion/newyorktoday/nyc-news-fnu-lnu-unidentified-defendants.html Do you fancy submitting it via the form on www.lateralcast.com so we can credit you?
It's interesting when a story comes up that I'm familiar with. If I had been on the panel, I'd have to sit out this one. It's so entertaining watching the others try to come to the right conclusion. Seeing them zero in on it eventually, or at least close enough, is quite a journey.
I love this concept so much. It feels like trivial pursuit but without needing to know a bunch of random tidbits. Instead, you can just sort of will yourself past the finish line. I was way off on my prediction for this one :)
Literally just last night I was looking at excerpts from Matt Parker's Humble Pi and this case was one of them.
I was just about to comment that I knew the answer but couldn’t remember where I heard it from and you’ve just reminded me! Thanks 😂❤
I knew exactly what this was about having seen write ups in the technical press at the time, there was even an episode of NCIS based on this case.
I feel like I’ve seen QI episodes and the like as well.
And also CSI:New York
And Elementary.
Oh, I remember this story.
Before the video started, I was thinking California, 80s 90s, was a assumed serial killer leaving victims feet on beaches. People were finding human feet, in shoes, up and down the coast. Turns out was just unrelated bodies ending in the ocean, and a shoe is a pretty good way to preserve a foot long enough for it to wash ashore.
wikipedia: /Salish_Sea_human_foot_discoveries
I'm living in Heilbronn, and watched all of this unfold. A day or two before the solution about how she was able to pull all these of came out, I watched a American crime series (maybe NCIS, maybe criminal minds, ain't sure anymore) where that thing happened to, and I wondered if it was possible that the Heilbronner Phantom was something like that.
Felt quite intelligent once it was announced shortly after that if went like that ^^
(I tried really hard not to spoil here.)
I think the episode came out after. Maybe you confused the timeline or you heard about the conclusion a few days late. I’m surprised at how fast they can turn around a script of a TV procedural. Law & Order can air an episode within a week of the real story hitting the news. You’ll be watching the episode while the news story is still making headlines.
i immediately knew the answer to this one, i was coincidentally binge-watching "adam ruins everything" a couple of days ago and so i got it haha
Ah so that was how I learned this random piece of trivia
Knew that instantly. It was a big thing here in Germany.
I remember when this happened. Surprised it took them that long to figure out.
Like Jeremy did, if anyone had that idea they only checked for contamination downstream instead of upstream.
yay, another one where i instantly knew it when they mentioned a woman associated with a bunch of crimes across Europe xD
I honestly cant remember where i first heard her story, but its a truly fascinatin one
I think I might have read it on 9gag quite a few years ago.
I also knew this. I might be wrong but I think it came up in an episode of QI.
@@arnelilleseter4755 It mayve, but that wudnt be where i heard it
Tom I think Lateral is my favorite of your productions. That's saying alot consider the volume of content you create. I love these kinds of puzzles. I enjoy trying to solve them before the panel does.
Reminds me of the line "Track down this murderer! She must be found!" from 'The Phantom of Heilbronn' - a new play by Andrew Lloyd Webber and Alain Benette (known for 'The Plot of the Rue Saint Nicaise').
oooh, a techdif gag
Omg!! This is the first one I've immediately known the answer to! I thought I was on the right track just from the title then the question confirmed it. Finally! Lol. Love this show!!
0:41 I'm guessing Tom has seen those videos of Scottish people failing to say "purple burglar alarm"
I immediately got this one. I had heard about this story before.
At first I thought this might be similar to the case where the police thought this random farm in the US was a hotspot for criminal activity. It turned out that the farm was located at the exact midpoint of the country, which was the default value for the location field in the police database!
I'm just imaging that farm trying to get insurance and the insurance company checking for reports of crime in the area to then find '273 hit and runs, 129 assaults, 497 cases of theft, 12 murders, ....' all on their driveway.
'Yes, we've considered covering you but will need to decline. We are surprised you're still alive. Good luck' [Hangs up] :)
@@markwright3161 I think there was actually a police raid on the farm to shut down the apparent criminal activity after all the reports and that's when they realised what had happened and rectified it.
To pick up on Tom's new catchphrase for this show:
I was one of those people sitting in front of the screen and screaming the answer. But then again, I knew this story, this is one of those things where you have to know of the story to instantly get it as there is no way you could guess it right away.
Irish Police won an Ignoble prize in literature after issuing thousands of traffic violations to a Polish driver named "Prawo Jazdy"
He was never arrested and never paid any of his fines. Why not?
Prawo Jazdy is "Driver's License" in Polish.
This was a really good one!
I remembered this one from an old Adam Ruins Everything episode.
0:22 - Is this about the woman working in the factory that made the swabs whose DNA traces were on the swabs?
I knew this one! I occasionally tell people about it at work when they tape boxes without wearing gloves!
title giving away the answer again
It's nice to know part of the answer (but not the whole answer) and watch them figuring it out.
That's part of the experience we are here for.
The top comment (currently a comment about the swabs not being sold as DNA-free, just sterile) is giving away too much... but the title is OK. Also, the question itself is phrased in a way that you expect her not being guilty right away..
Last Podcast On the Left is the best true crime comedy podcast.
I've heard this anecdote enough times by now that I was quite surprised nobody on the panel had!
I wish Tom had explained it in a bit more detail at the end of the video. Normally he does.
Must admit I got this one right away - but then I did watch the CSI (New York, I think) episode based on this.
Yes! That's where I heard about this incident first as well. Quite scary to think it was inspired by real events
Came here to say this. I didn't realize the CSI:NY episode might have been based on a true story.
As I recall, on the CSI episode they got suspicious when multiple crimes were committed within minutes of each other, but many miles apart.
these titles really help, sometimes, lol
got it immediately
I never knew this really happened. A tv episode - I believe it was Law & Order (the NYC original), but I'm not sure - seems to have been based on it. The preparers of DNA swabs were supposed to be wearing gloves and masks, but the work environment was overheated and one of the workers was sloppy and her kits ended up with Homicide and everyone was looking for a serial killer who did not exist.
If anyone remembers the series and episode, please tell us in a comment. That would be cool.
One of the rare ones I knew right out the gate!
For like half of that I was sitting here thinking "somebody's licking the envelope instead of using the sponge at the factory or something."
From the title alone I narrowed it down to 2 possibilities, as soon as the question got to the word "European" I knew the answer.
What was the other possibility?
@@PostoronniyNot European.
@@Postoronniy Maybe worker at the bullet factory?
Feet washing up on Canadian beaches. @@Postoronniy
@@dyent Got it, thanks for the reply!
This would be an interesting cover for a criminal. "Oh, my DNA evidence is just from a faulty lab test"
Factory worker by day, criminal mastermind by night...I like it!
I saw a CSI: NY episode that had a similar story, so thought of that as well.
"Tom Scott Gets Morally Outraged - The Quiz Show"
I knew this one, nice to watch when you know the solution
Just a quick sidenote to say I LOVE Ines's hair!
Incidentally, Heilbronn is twinned with my home town of Stockport!
I knew this right away from the title! 😂
That cheeky "routInés" on the subtitles...
I'm gonna have to stop watching the premieres since I can't skip through the frustrating bits of them going in circles lol
I read the title and wondered if it was about that case, seems I was right. (also I am German, so I might have heard about it a few times)
Omg I thought Estafannie was joking about the true crime comedy podcast, but no, "My Favorite Murder" is real!!
At 0:39: I think I know that: the production standards for cotton swabs for taking biological samples were more strictly enforced.
honestly, i knew it from the title of the video XD
but i think that case is pretty well known in germany, so the title gives it away already (though to be fair, the phantom of heilbronn would be the nail in the coffin anyway)
Heard this one on QI years ago
first one ive ever done using past knowledge
Are there any episodes where someone gets it right away? Because I knew the answer as soon as I heard “The Phantom of Heilbronn”.
Our house rule is that if one person knows it they say so and sit out (you'll hear that sometimes). If 2 or 3 know it, we replace the question.
remembered that one
For some reason, despite the fact he told it twice in the podcast, I thought that the setting of the question was in the 1600s. Otherwise I would have gotten the answer a lot sooner, because I already was familiar with this story.
The title kind of spoiled this one
Ayy i knew this one!
This actually inspired an episode of CSI New York
I wonder if we'll get a very similar case (related to foreign drivers' licenses) as a future question...
Yeah it's my (largely rephrased) question !
Thanks for sending it in!
I couldn't do this show, I've watched so much UA-cam i know a decent amount of these.
My guess was that it inspired the Carmen Sandiego series
I feel like the title gives it away :o
This is my episode to scream the answer at the screen the whole time
There was a serial rapist turned serial killer active in California in the 70's and 80's. Known as the Golden State Killer. The killer went quiet just after the first conviction was secured using DNA evidence.
The killer had been careless with his DNA before this, and he knew the police had plenty of samples but they had nothing to match the samples with.
The killer was extremally careful to avoid allowing the police getting a sample of his DNA, and the killer seemed to know all the sneaky ways the police could get his DNA.
However, he did not have full control of his DNA. His blood relatives (in this case a second cousin) allowed their DNA to be used to find familial matches. This is where they can test the DNA of a relative of the suspect and from their they can get a warrant for the DNA of the suspect himself.
It turned out the Golden State Killer was a homicide detective in the Bay Area. He had even investigated the murders of some of his victims.
I knew this from the start. The only one
Drunk women solving crime is a great comedy podcast btw
I read the title and instantly recognised the story 😅
0:41 Purple burglar alarm.
But how much does a kilogram of feathers weigh, exactly?
I suspected the answer as soon as I saw what the title was.
Ahh Choo!!!
First one I knew from the video title 😮
Just as I saw the title, I thought "Ooh, is this the same case they talk about on QI?" and sure enough, it was.
Ew, ew, ew! I remember when this happened. Procedures are there for a reason.
In fairness, I don't believe any procedures were violated. There was just a flaw in some that allowed this to happen.
Can't remember where I read/saw this before. Probably QI or Some crime novel
I think I might know this one 🤔
We'll see in 3h
Edit: Nice, I was correct 😁
wait what? you can comment on a video before it was published?
I know Tom posts comments on his own videos before making them public... but how can you do that?
Oh my god I'm screaming EARBUD! DNA! but i don't remember if this is the story until half the game.
Hmm, this definitely is one of those titles that kinda gives away the game a bit. Not sure about that one, but good question regardless
I would think they would use UV Or radiation sterilization on the packaging once sealed. Which if done long enough will destroy nucelic acid base pairs. Flooding the packaging environment with ozone or some other strong oxidizer would also probably work too.
The issue was that the swabs were not actually intended for DNA tests, they were for viral tests. The police were just using it because it was cheaper.
Once upon a time, an urban legend says, there was a spat of traffic offences commited by a polish driver, acrosss UK and Ireland... the police only solved this when a polish consultant was employed to look into them. Why?
.
.
.
.
.
The recorded name of the driver was taken as the 2 first words off the driving license card, which read 'Prawo Jazdy'. Which turned out to be polish for .... 'driving license'.
✌️✌️
1:30 Something's ringing in the back of my head! Was the assistant lady at Forensics who handled all the DNA samples *contaminating* them with her own epithelials by not following strict evidence handling guidelines 😁?
It gets a bit strange when one has the title to go by as well.
Midway guess: Can't go "she never existed" as it says they caught her....
They found out the crimes were all unrelated?
Hasn't this question been on Lateral before?
Yeah, I heard this one too: She was … for lack of a better phrase … “forming the tip” of the swabs with her lips._
Ooh! I know this one, so I'm sitting it out.
Edit: Woo, I was right!
would've been interesting to know how she contaminated the swabs though
It's funny, when you remember the story from the news.
Damn I think I know this one, wasnt it the person who packed the sterile swabs or something? Someone mishandled sterile equipment I think.
I feel like this was the basis of a CSI episode.
saw the title, immediately knew what it was. any last doubts were dispersed the moment i glimpsed "DNA" and "swaps" in the comments xD
A man walked into a bar. Any ideas on how to remove the dent?
Knew this before even half the question was read =(
What would happen if a technician who possessed crime scene DNA committed a crime and then processed thew DNA sample collected by police?
My guess was that the mafia was using her as a scapegoat by planting false evidence at the crime scenes. Pretty close
This case actually appeared in what might be the oldest "True crime" TV show: Aktenzeichen XY… ungelöst
It's a TV show that started in 1967 where the police publish open cases where they're hoping to get hints from the public (the concept has been sold to other countries, e.g. Crimewatch in the UK and America's Most Wanted in the US)
I thought the woman is a very active blood donor, but for multiple people to return consistent false positives would probably require a ridiculous volume of blood to be taken.
I'm not following the "very carefully worded phrase" of "what were the repercussions when *she* was eventually found" as to how it connect to "they improved the production and packaging of DNA swabs."? I don't see the connection.
usually when someone is guilty you would talk about them being caught, not them being found, the question leaves it ambigious.