"Hello, this is Ian McCollum." "Allo, Monsier McCollum? My name is Jean-Pierre Laurent, and I'm calling from the Institut de Recherche Criminelle de la Gendarmerie Nationale in France. We've been watching your channel, and would like to invite you to visit us, s'il vous plait, here in France and take a look at some of our guns here, perhaps sometime in the next year or- Monsieur McCollum? Allo? Are you still there?" **Ian appears behind Laurent in a cloud of smoke and a sonic boom** "OU EST LE GUNS?! OU EST LE GUNS!?!"
Ian has long been known - admits! - to being a Francophile; with the large number of interesting and strange French weapons, he could hardly have avoided it.
I just love when Ian gives us another useful video about a French firearm, it really showcases how Ian has a thing for French firearms such as this one. Tres bien.
As a Fr3, I can say that the pronunciation of French words by Ian is almost as good as a French person. I have this idea that it is lab visit during the day and French lessons at night... Thanks for the videos!
Mathematically, the displacement should be a bit bigger at 11.48, 11.49 or just round up to 11.5mm. But what's a few 10 thousandths between friends holding directed energy pipe bombs.
Some people have a hard time visualizing the operation. Can I make some suggestions for future videos? 1.Hold the weapon in the same orientation muzzle your left say. 2. Showing cycling, muzzle again left keep parts that don't move stationery until they do.3. Etc. I had a stroke awhile ago and my spatial awareness seems to be one of my lost abilities along with short time memories. I always enjoy your demonstration but I get confused during the how the operation works this is probably just me but? You are one of the most interesting channels out here. Regards.
EXCELLENT points! Ian is inconsistent in his orientation of a weapon while he disassembles and demonstrates movement of the components! I am a retired machine parts inspector with 20 years experience. Many times I have to rewind once or twice to get a true mental image of the parts interactions! And I have NO disability. Hey Ian, maybe take note of this suggestion.
Any time he's at a government or major manufacturer's facility, i imagine they have a guy blocking the exit with his arms crossed as security, and he's just watching as Ian seemingly talks to himself and disassembles and reassembles various pieces of equipment
French double bluff. MAS made a .45ACP and left the bolt out. "See! American version doesn't work. Let's make it in 9mm." And voila! Contract secured :D
This is literally what any ai generated firearm looks like The charging handle The barrel looks like the mp5 And last but not the least The two triggers and wooden furniture
Alternate Theory, and this is just conjecture from some other info, but in the Tank Muesums video on one of the post war french tanks, I can think of which off the top of my head but they mentioned that one of the big goals with the tank was to have foreign exports since in the post war period france was very poor. so maybe this was a prototype of the MAS-48 in 45. ACP to see if they could attract foreign buyers
I'm a BIG fan of 45 ACP.....except when it comes to having to carry lots of ammo. Then the 2 for 1 weight advantage of 9mm starts to look mighty fine and it'll put holes in things just as well.
Interesting that they wouldn't have gone with a standard M3 or Thompson magazine for even the prototype, probably something to do with the internals of the MAS.
The double-stack magazine makes absolute sense, if you're serious about arming with .45ACP - the fat cartridge seriously gimps capacity unless you take steps - as the French did here.
Remember, if you're a major mikitary who is going to be producing your small arms domestically, you're also going to make your own magazines. Thus, unless interoperability is a requirement, might as well design a good one. You aren't going to have your troops sourcing mags from gun shows, after all - you're going to ship the gun with X number of mags, straight from the factory, and build Y number of replacements for the supply system. Since it really won't cost any more in the end (unless someone is just *guving* you magazine tooling) than directly copying another design, might as well design a good magazine if you can. The troop in the foxhole isn't going to be asking a USGI for a spare mag, anyway - interoperability of *ammunition* is logistically important, but not so much interoperability of *magazines* between allies.
Ian, come on? Paul Harrel needs your help! :) yours and his channel are the best on youtube. Surely you'll help a fellow guntuber out in a situation like this.
Given France's involvement in Indochina and the Chinese live affair with .45 Broomhandle Mausers, there might be a connection in a prototype French SMG in that caliber for use or export to that part of the world for logistics reasons
If I had a nickle for every example I've seen on Forgotten Weapons, I think I would end up with less than a buck but it's worth pointing out that's still a surprising amount.
Hi Ian! Thank you for the great review and breakdown, as always. Could you do a video explaining LWRC’s new Glock fed PCC or just a video about its unique operating system. The chamber ring delayed blowback system. Please and thank you. I really appreciate everything you do and the immense knowledge you give all of us! Thank you
I just watched the Kimball and Mann videos. Thanks again! I wonder if the new LWRC PCC using the chamber ring delayed blowback will be able to handle +P 9mm ammunition or steel or aluminum cased ammunition? Thank you, as always!!
I'd like to suggest that you do a video about the High Standard HD Military silenced .22 pistol made for the OSS. I think it qualifies as a "forgotten weapon".
Did MAS ever do one of these in 8mm Kurz? Between this version and the .30 Carbine version I get the feeling they were feeling really good about this design and went a little crazy experimenting with every possible type of ammunition that might make it 'click' for the military establishment.
Looks like a PP Bizon with the mag folded. I have a question, where do people find magazines for these oddball/rare firearms? I cannot even find a magazine for a VZ 61 in .380 and I just bought it brand new... Any help would be appreciated, I have scoured online.
Here we are with a 2024 Vegas Shot Show awash with pistol-caliber carbines as all the rage to market to a saturated North American gun market, and all of them are variations of proven hit sellers--Ruger's PCC is a 9mm or .40 10/22, for instance, or, mostly, ARs in pistol-calibers. By now, the patents on these fantastic lever-delay SMGs have long expired, but I'm betting that the costs of manufacturing these would be prohibitive... Too bad! There's a lot of admirable design elements in these.
Question. How often do you know exactly what you’re going to see when you go to these places, and how often are you essentially going in and allowed to look around and just come across stuff? Understand if you don’t respond.
Wonder if they ever considered experimenting with 30 carbine and 7.92 x 33 variants? Would have given them a leg up in developing intermediate caliber assault rifles.
Quick correction, although it may have been addressed in other comments. 45 acp is metric designated as 11.43x23mm, while 45 colt is 11.43x33mmR. I have been increasingly curious as to why 45 colt is never qualified as 11.5, which is mathematically 0.452.
@@PrebleStreetRecords I am completely aware of that however, I've been reloading, slugging and cleaning barrels long enough to know dead soft .452 and powder coated .453 does not engage the groove valley on anything but the tightest rare barrels. This includes slugging which hardly imparts pressure or temperature required to expand metal. I've even run a copper jacket .4505 down easy once. This makes zero practical sense. There is no way most barrel manufacturers are following "saami voluntary performance standards" of .442 deviation plus 5 ten-thou lands, .450 deviation plus 5 ten-thou grooves. For another instance, saami calls out one in 16 left hand in both acp and colt. I've got 14, 16 and 20's, some even right hand. You can even get them as slow as 32 twist. Of course, the standard is all voluntary, isn't it.
@@PBVader You're absolutely right. I should've added to my comment something about how tolerances are far wider than hitting .450 bang-on. I just mean that since it's the spec, it's what the manufacturer will print on their firearm. Like how a 3/16 bit isn't going to make a .187" hole, but we still call it 3/16.
I wonder if .45 ACP was something easier to get in French overseas colonies, or at least they had thought about the issue. Perhaps there were a lot of "Grease Guns" still in South-East Asia, for example.
Dear Ian, With how much WW2 American small arms divestiture to pre-NATO/Early-NATO nations (.45 ACP/.30 Carbine/.30-06) do you think this choice reflected a potential access to vast amounts of .45 ACP ammo? Perhaps the French government weighed the distribution of captured Nazi ammunition against supplied American ammunition in their considerations?
maybe the french had,after the end of the war, some serious stockpiles of .45 ammo that the US army left behind....also, while .45 is maybe a bit "heavy" for a handgun, it might be very nice for a submachinegun.....
Is building .45 prototypes a "Test of Faith" for foreign weapons designers, or is it just because "wherever the US Military swings its cod, there will be .45 ACP"?
It would actually kind of make sense as a sort of comparison gun against the Thompson, as stated. The Thompson was a pretty ubiquitous SMG ever since its introduction, and seeing as the French had surplus and aid ones, it's not unreasonable they'd use it as a benchmark to compare their own SMG development against. Expensive (especially), getting outdated, but the world knew it well, whether it be in the hands of gangsters or GIs. It just worked so well. It was a classic even then. That said, maybe the French realized 9mm against .45 isn't the best comparison, so they made a limited batch of .45 ACP versions just to test and fine tune shooting characteristics to get a solid benchmark on where the design stands against the famous/infamous Thompson everyone was familiar with. Sure, you can just refine and tweak the 9mm design and not bother with .45, but someone is ALWAYS going to be "that guy" and go "well if these guns were the same caliber...", and so they made a couple .45 versions just to shut those specific people up.
And again lots of blah, blah, blah about YOUR opinion of what YOU think the French were MAYBE thinking! Please! Keep this kind of crap OUT of the comments! 🥴🥴🥴
Ian in his element, prototype French gun in a US caliber
Lol
"Hello, this is Ian McCollum."
"Allo, Monsier McCollum? My name is Jean-Pierre Laurent, and I'm calling from the Institut de Recherche Criminelle de la Gendarmerie Nationale in France. We've been watching your channel, and would like to invite you to visit us, s'il vous plait, here in France and take a look at some of our guns here, perhaps sometime in the next year or- Monsieur McCollum? Allo? Are you still there?"
**Ian appears behind Laurent in a cloud of smoke and a sonic boom** "OU EST LE GUNS?! OU EST LE GUNS!?!"
It's surprising how basically all major militaries tried or experiment with .45 ACP, but it almost never adopted.
Jeez, we get it.
I wouldn't call France a major military.
@@r.b.rozier9692yes, it is a General military.
@@kawaiiarchive357look who's talking.
@@paleoph6168 it's barely a military at all.
That black one legit looks like a MP5 from an alternative dimension. The wooden MP5 buttstock is not something I'd ever see being done unironically.
I love how crazy obsessed French gun designers are with folding parts. At this point, it's evident that Ian loves French guns.
Maybe it was a workaround solution to accidental discharge problems turned up during drop testing ?
Ian has long been known - admits! - to being a Francophile; with the large number of interesting and strange French weapons, he could hardly have avoided it.
Well...the constant folding does mirror them politically too 😅
@@DriveCarToBar2cv with the rear seat removed would make a great platform for firing a Chauchat in the prone position
Whaddaya mean.."at this point"???
Couldn't ya yell ten years ago???
I just love when Ian gives us another useful video about a French firearm, it really showcases how Ian has a thing for French firearms such as this one. Tres bien.
I love these! That disassembly system is great. The entire design is quite clever for a sub gun.
As a Fr3, I can say that the pronunciation of French words by Ian is almost as good as a French person. I have this idea that it is lab visit during the day and French lessons at night... Thanks for the videos!
French lessons at night...sounds interesting!
@@motorosso3349 Really? 😇😉😁🤣
Ian and a French gun is a sight that brings a smile to my face when i see it in the recommended/Subscribed section
A very cool firearm! The French had many innovative firearm designs that I never hear about, except for Forgotten Weapons. Thank you!
Look at Ian geeking out over weird French gun prototypes!
i wonder if they had put Ian trough a metaldetector when leaving the building..
"Desolé, m'sieu, but we 'ave a lot of interesting old French guns and we've seen your videos."
...most likely...I would...
They'd be too busy genuflecting.
Ian & those places are part of a single spiritual Entity, like Elric & Night at the Museum. (So he never really leaves.)
✨
Ian simply appears there
it's the gun Jesus
Dual trigger system is the mullet of the firearms world. Business in the front, party in the back.
If you publish a book on French gun prototypes, or even gun prototypes in general, I'll buy it !
I love the postwar French SMGs
That looks awesome!
Le 11.43mm américain
Il n'y a pas de remplacement pour le déplacement!
Mathematically, the displacement should be a bit bigger at 11.48, 11.49 or just round up to 11.5mm. But what's a few 10 thousandths between friends holding directed energy pipe bombs.
@@PBVader I prefer to call them "angry clocks" but up to you.
@@PBVaderFor me it comes out as exactly 11.43mm how did you get 11.48?
Very interesting and entertaining, as usual, thanks.
Some people have a hard time visualizing the operation. Can I make some suggestions for future videos? 1.Hold the weapon in the same orientation muzzle your left say. 2. Showing cycling, muzzle again left keep parts that don't move stationery until they do.3. Etc. I had a stroke awhile ago and my spatial awareness seems to be one of my lost abilities along with short time memories. I always enjoy your demonstration but I get confused during the how the operation works this is probably just me but? You are one of the most interesting channels out here. Regards.
EXCELLENT points!
Ian is inconsistent in his orientation of a weapon while he disassembles and demonstrates movement of the components!
I am a retired machine parts inspector with 20 years experience. Many times I have to rewind once or twice to get a true mental image of the parts interactions!
And I have NO disability.
Hey Ian, maybe take note of this suggestion.
That trigger system is like a mullet: Business up front; party in the back.
And looking STUPID all over!
🤮🤮🤮
Any time he's at a government or major manufacturer's facility, i imagine they have a guy blocking the exit with his arms crossed as security, and he's just watching as Ian seemingly talks to himself and disassembles and reassembles various pieces of equipment
French double bluff. MAS made a .45ACP and left the bolt out. "See! American version doesn't work. Let's make it in 9mm." And voila! Contract secured :D
Very neat!
This is literally what any ai generated firearm looks like
The charging handle
The barrel looks like the mp5
And last but not the least
The two triggers and wooden furniture
The French really liked those folding magazines.
They do come with a lot of advantages.
Ian I love you and your videos please please keep at it ❤
Alternate Theory, and this is just conjecture from some other info, but in the Tank Muesums video on one of the post war french tanks, I can think of which off the top of my head but they mentioned that one of the big goals with the tank was to have foreign exports since in the post war period france was very poor. so maybe this was a prototype of the MAS-48 in 45. ACP to see if they could attract foreign buyers
Central and South America comes to mind.
I'm a BIG fan of 45 ACP.....except when it comes to having to carry lots of ammo. Then the 2 for 1 weight advantage of 9mm starts to look mighty fine and it'll put holes in things just as well.
As I see more French arms, (and I own a Berthier M-16 carbine), I look at Peugeots & Renauts and say "Of course! "
Same with the British. I’ve worked on their guns, sailboats, and cars, and all of them do with ten parts what other countries would do with one.
Interesting that they wouldn't have gone with a standard M3 or Thompson magazine for even the prototype, probably something to do with the internals of the MAS.
right, they surely would have been available
The double-stack magazine makes absolute sense, if you're serious about arming with .45ACP - the fat cartridge seriously gimps capacity unless you take steps - as the French did here.
Wanted there own magazines
Thompson mags are unnecessarily complex to make and thus expensive, and Grease Gun mags frankly suck.
Remember, if you're a major mikitary who is going to be producing your small arms domestically, you're also going to make your own magazines. Thus, unless interoperability is a requirement, might as well design a good one. You aren't going to have your troops sourcing mags from gun shows, after all - you're going to ship the gun with X number of mags, straight from the factory, and build Y number of replacements for the supply system.
Since it really won't cost any more in the end (unless someone is just *guving* you magazine tooling) than directly copying another design, might as well design a good magazine if you can.
The troop in the foxhole isn't going to be asking a USGI for a spare mag, anyway - interoperability of *ammunition* is logistically important, but not so much interoperability of *magazines* between allies.
Ian, come on? Paul Harrel needs your help! :) yours and his channel are the best on youtube. Surely you'll help a fellow guntuber out in a situation like this.
damn a modern version of this would be bad ass
Would love to see these videos in 4k, capture all that detail.
The French Government said “We want a grease gun with less grease and more…parfum de rose”
good day everyone
Business in the front, party in the back
Given France's involvement in Indochina and the Chinese live affair with .45 Broomhandle Mausers, there might be a connection in a prototype French SMG in that caliber for use or export to that part of the world for logistics reasons
More to compete with America
When I see French flag I click.
is there an infinite supply of folding magazine well french submachine guns? Ian must be crafting them under the table at night or something
If I had a nickle for every example I've seen on Forgotten Weapons, I think I would end up with less than a buck but it's worth pointing out that's still a surprising amount.
Cool thanks
Manufacture d'Armes de St Etienne, where the best ! Unfortunately, we loose it, as well as many otherS florets !
Hi Ian! Thank you for the great review and breakdown, as always. Could you do a video explaining LWRC’s new Glock fed PCC or just a video about its unique operating system. The chamber ring delayed blowback system. Please and thank you. I really appreciate everything you do and the immense knowledge you give all of us!
Thank you
I just watched the Kimball and Mann videos. Thanks again!
I wonder if the new LWRC PCC using the chamber ring delayed blowback will be able to handle +P 9mm ammunition or steel or aluminum cased ammunition?
Thank you, as always!!
That is an interesting magwell
Sometimes, designers will make an oddball prototype, just for the heck of it. I wonder if that's the case here?
I'd like to suggest that you do a video about the High Standard HD Military silenced .22 pistol made for the OSS. I think it qualifies as a "forgotten weapon".
Reminds me of the goated MPL from black ops 1 did this inspire this Walther MPL?
Did MAS ever do one of these in 8mm Kurz? Between this version and the .30 Carbine version I get the feeling they were feeling really good about this design and went a little crazy experimenting with every possible type of ammunition that might make it 'click' for the military establishment.
Looks like a PP Bizon with the mag folded. I have a question, where do people find magazines for these oddball/rare firearms?
I cannot even find a magazine for a VZ 61 in .380 and I just bought it brand new... Any help would be appreciated, I have scoured online.
cults 3 d has files to print the mag you are looking for.
Gross. Vz61s are just... horrible guns. Also, they don't come in .380 they come in .32acp which is probably why you can't find mags.
@@r.b.rozier9692the Zastava m84 or m84a skorpion (civilian model), is a Yugoslavian variant of the Vz. 61, is chambered in .380
@@r.b.rozier9692 so youre telling me the .380 I have ordered isnt a 380? lol
@@JoeKurr5 that is not the same as saying Vz61, details matter.
Here we are with a 2024 Vegas Shot Show awash with pistol-caliber carbines as all the rage to market to a saturated North American gun market, and all of them are variations of proven hit sellers--Ruger's PCC is a 9mm or .40 10/22, for instance, or, mostly, ARs in pistol-calibers. By now, the patents on these fantastic lever-delay SMGs have long expired, but I'm betting that the costs of manufacturing these would be prohibitive... Too bad! There's a lot of admirable design elements in these.
I hope you get a chance to make a video on the box magazine version of the Hotchkiss M1922 LMG.
Question. How often do you know exactly what you’re going to see when you go to these places, and how often are you essentially going in and allowed to look around and just come across stuff? Understand if you don’t respond.
I usually know what I will be filming, and have notes and research prepared before I arrive.
Nice
I hope we all find someone who talks about us with the same level of joy that Ian has when he talks about French firearms.
Wonder if they ever considered experimenting with 30 carbine and 7.92 x 33 variants? Would have given them a leg up in developing intermediate caliber assault rifles.
Oui frickin early gang
Quick correction, although it may have been addressed in other comments. 45 acp is metric designated as 11.43x23mm, while 45 colt is 11.43x33mmR. I have been increasingly curious as to why 45 colt is never qualified as 11.5, which is mathematically 0.452.
SAAMI spec for 45ACP grooves is .450, which is 11.43mm.
@@PrebleStreetRecords I am completely aware of that however, I've been reloading, slugging and cleaning barrels long enough to know dead soft .452 and powder coated .453 does not engage the groove valley on anything but the tightest rare barrels. This includes slugging which hardly imparts pressure or temperature required to expand metal. I've even run a copper jacket .4505 down easy once.
This makes zero practical sense. There is no way most barrel manufacturers are following "saami voluntary performance standards" of .442 deviation plus 5 ten-thou lands, .450 deviation plus 5 ten-thou grooves. For another instance, saami calls out one in 16 left hand in both acp and colt. I've got 14, 16 and 20's, some even right hand. You can even get them as slow as 32 twist. Of course, the standard is all voluntary, isn't it.
@@PBVader You're absolutely right. I should've added to my comment something about how tolerances are far wider than hitting .450 bang-on.
I just mean that since it's the spec, it's what the manufacturer will print on their firearm.
Like how a 3/16 bit isn't going to make a .187" hole, but we still call it 3/16.
Can a weapon be forgotton if no one knew it existed?
Wondering if there's already a video covering the VBR-PDW.
Maybe they were thinking of the export market, lots of .45 was floating around Europe at the time.
I am sending you the acronyms of mas Mac and mat which are the 3 different manufacture De Saint Étienne (mas) (Mac). Châtellerault and (mat) for tulle
Ilove this
I can't help but notice the offset of the sight at 1:40...is it intentional?
I wonder if .45 ACP was something easier to get in French overseas colonies, or at least they had thought about the issue. Perhaps there were a lot of "Grease Guns" still in South-East Asia, for example.
Top of the morning lads
Wrong greeting silly. Bonjour!
Beautiful....😊😊😊😊. Bodeo 1889?
That blade on the back of the grip looks rather uncomfortable.
Neato!
threaded barrel version when?
Dear Ian,
With how much WW2 American small arms divestiture to pre-NATO/Early-NATO nations (.45 ACP/.30 Carbine/.30-06) do you think this choice reflected a potential access to vast amounts of .45 ACP ammo? Perhaps the French government weighed the distribution of captured Nazi ammunition against supplied American ammunition in their considerations?
If 11,43 is 45 acp why is the Kongsberg colt marked 11,25 isn’t that also 45 acp since it is basicly a 1911?
looks like the uzi mag in 45acp Ian!
:)
If the French military didn't exercise a monopoly on itself for firearms...
It is also possible that this 45 caliber version was developed as a possible export version
Wow, another Frenchy, but this time in .45acp sweet
Is it possible they considered a 45acp model for export sales?
Deux guerres mondiales!
Pourquoi n'aimez-vous pas le super carry French 30?
That would have been cool if when braking it down the rear piece would be a pistol
Gun Jesus always delivers!
maybe the french had,after the end of the war, some serious stockpiles of .45 ammo that the US army left behind....also, while .45 is maybe a bit "heavy" for a handgun, it might be very nice for a submachinegun.....
Yo early team!
That is horrendous!
So ugly that even MY Mom couldn't love it!.. I need two of them.
It looks like an MPL
So you're saying 30 supercarry is terrible.
It looks like a post apocalyptic Walther MPL.
Hehehe business in the front, party in the back.
Yes please
can you get a type 64 suppressed smg
Hon hon hon, more folding guns.
wow makes me think of an HK hybrid
10mm may be best millimetre, but 11.43mm... is... uh... Freedom-Eagles-Beer-and-BBQ millimetre.
yeah more weird french firearm ! :D
What was the magazine capacity?
I like that the French wrote on the gun that it's caliber 11.43 :)
Metric all the way :D
Metric rules the world !
11.43 millimeter because they don't make 11.44 millimeter
Oh dang that voila moment 😮
Ian *heavy breathing*
Is building .45 prototypes a "Test of Faith" for foreign weapons designers, or is it just because "wherever the US Military swings its cod, there will be .45 ACP"?
Is a mac fo' five mang, I mean a Matte, fo' five...
Its so french of them to stamp the caliber in metric.
All European nations did that
It would actually kind of make sense as a sort of comparison gun against the Thompson, as stated. The Thompson was a pretty ubiquitous SMG ever since its introduction, and seeing as the French had surplus and aid ones, it's not unreasonable they'd use it as a benchmark to compare their own SMG development against. Expensive (especially), getting outdated, but the world knew it well, whether it be in the hands of gangsters or GIs. It just worked so well. It was a classic even then. That said, maybe the French realized 9mm against .45 isn't the best comparison, so they made a limited batch of .45 ACP versions just to test and fine tune shooting characteristics to get a solid benchmark on where the design stands against the famous/infamous Thompson everyone was familiar with. Sure, you can just refine and tweak the 9mm design and not bother with .45, but someone is ALWAYS going to be "that guy" and go "well if these guns were the same caliber...", and so they made a couple .45 versions just to shut those specific people up.
And again lots of blah, blah, blah about YOUR opinion of what YOU think the French were MAYBE thinking!
Please! Keep this kind of crap OUT of the comments!
🥴🥴🥴
Tune in next week on forgotten fishing comments.
oh hot and fresh
Before MAT 49