Terrific video gents. Really interesting. I recently added an early 70 replica 4x12 with S&P grill cloth. It feels and sounds like cane when I run the back of my hand (nails) across it. Anyway, I can't believe how great this cab sounds compared to the 80s 1960A I had for over 25 years. I don't think it's any one thing, though I feel like the overall construction (built to original specs) is the biggest contributor, followed by speakers, and then grill cloth. I'm guessing most would put speakers first, and until getting this cab, I would have felt the same way. But hearing the resonance of a well-made cab has allowed me to see the light. At any rate, I enjoyed the vid and LOVED the tone!
Thanks guys. This was one of the things I was thinking about. Really hard to hear the differences over UA-cam, as you say the difference are subtle, so it's good to know that one can just choose a grill cloth on looks! Have a happy new year. Cheers
Really excellent methodology. My takeaway from this is that if you are in a recording situation pull the cloth if possible, better to get more than miss what you might want. But in a live settings, be it practice or a gig those subtle differences are only going to be noticed by the player and maybe not at all.
Great video! With my eyes shut and cranked through studio monitors there's one or two that stood out to me but otherwise it was real subtle. That Marshall sounds ace through all of them regardless.
Thanks mate, the difference was really subtle wasn't it.. I think the big difference would have been having a removable grill allowed the mic to be placed closer with the grill off (not that we recorded that option any closer)... that said I'm not sure closer would have sounded better, just different.
@@ZillaCabs closer to the speaker would increase the proximity effect. On a Mesa cab, it's quite common to pull a mic back 3cm+ from the grill, or you have to lower the bass on the Amp, making it sound anemic in the room. Plus it adds like a 2% in natural ambiance. It just makes things sound a little bit more natural.
Very nicely done, boys! It’s a question I’ve long had and I’m getting ready to change the grill cloth on a combo so it was timely for me to run across your vid. Much appreciated and greetings from Elkton, Maryland!
Thanks for the video I’m in the middle of building an 15”Peavey Scorpion plus cab , I’m going to use black burlap for my grill an this video helped me think about what I should use an I tested it an sounds just like I wanted more like the cane weaving from Orange even with more openings it’s thick cloth so it gave more deeper depth sound. Keep up the awesome work this helped me out a lot
Many thanks for this video. Is just great. I also appreciated the easy speaking and calm explanation, instead the fast and pseudo cool style abounding nowadays.
Thanks, I'm glad you liked it. We actually get told we talk too much haha but each to their own. I do like to try and explain what we are doing as there are always compromises in these kind of videos. Thanks again for watching.
Great vid, guys! Thanks for putting your effort into this. Was expecting a bigger difference, too. Also it would be nice if we could hear the exact same part of a riff or lick each time and the naked cab at the end for a reference.
Thanks Alan, we were experimenting a lot with what to play in videos (repeat the riff and risk getting monotonous) but I agree for this kind of stuff repeating the riff would have worked best. We did do no grill for reference but there there was a glitch in the recording (computer just said no). I hope it was of some use though.
The changes on the graph were extremely subtle. Most people need to hear a 3dB SPL change to hear a difference in volume. None of the graph changes looked anywhere near 3dB. I doubt even the best ears could tell much if any difference. I would have to see someone doing a double-blind test or even better still ABX testing to believe mere mortal ears could tell which cloth was which. Thanks for confirming what I suspected. Nobody in the audience will be able to hear a difference so pick the cloth that looks best to you. And if you think one cloth sounds better than the other use it. The most important thing is to do what makes you happy.
We didn't have a metal grill that would have fit but that is a good follow up video for sure. Metal grills do make a difference..... we announced the winner on Boxingday, the chap was called Dean Cleaver, sorry you weren't the lucky guy.
It was interesting how the little tiny bump below the main bass resonance changed quite a bit: I wondered if it's the cab resonance changing due to the ports being blocked up more by some fabrics: some of the midrange changes may be due to this effect also shifting higher air modes around: interesting to do this with an open backed cab: might change its IR curve a lot less
Quite possibly.......... I've been meaning to see what the apertures in the grill would do to the peaks and troughs, and yeah we are moving over to testing with open and closed back cabs to show the difference. I think an open back test would definitely be worth it.... but then that said having no grill cloth didn't make a huge tonal difference. Thanks for the input Nick!
Thanks for the video!!! I always wanted to know this. To my ears the Basketweave had the biggest impact on the sound with the high end being a little rolled off but, the others I could not really tell that much. I would of loved to see a metal grill here in the demo just to see what that does but, I assume its going to be just about the same as all theses other ones.
You are right, this started out as just a quick test.... I kind of thought the results would be a bit more noticable so just did the one track. We have started recording clean, dirty rhythm, dirty rhythm with lead over the top and heavy for comparisons now.
Yeah it would have been better. Unfortunately the file got corrupted just before editing, so rather than not put the video out or repeat it, we did it as is/was. The sonically transparent grille had next to no effect. As it goes there is better software out there for that stuff so when it comes round to remaking the video we'll include it and in a more useful format.
Great video. Thanks for doing this. I was interested in seeing the response of the orange Basketweave. Is that the same thing as a Cane Grill cloth? There is a lot of talk about how the cane grill cloth cuts highs. The graph does show minor cut in highs but certainly not noticeable to ears.
The cane is often just a different name for basketweeve. Although I can a different cloth cane. Thicker cloths will kill the top end but it was surprising in this video how it didn't seem to make as big a difference as you'd think. There are bigger factors that give an Orange 4x12 its sound than the grill.. the wood and several aspects of the construction are the major factors there. Thanks for watching, I'm glad you found it useful.
Really good video guys, must have taken some time to sort! Question: do you know if guitar amp speaker cabinet cloth can be used for acoustic panels in a music studio as they look great but also allow sound to pass through?!
I love open back cabs and wanted to see if you would test Front mounting speaker on the baffle vs back mounting on the baffle to evaluate tone changes. It seems that 99% of the cabs are mounted on the back of the baffle. Even combo amps are back mounted where they could use the xtra room in the back with bigger frames and magnets if front mounted. I had 4 1x12 custom cabs made that mount only from the front because there is not enough room to get the speaker in through the back of the cab. It just never crossed my mind when I had them built. They are road ready cabs with metal grills like Mesa used to do. I am thinking that the biggest reason for all back baffle mounting is for aesthetics and putting a grill cloth on the front of cabs. I could be wrong and would want to know if their is some scientific reason for back baffle mounting. Stranger things have happened. I have read that there was no scientific acoustic thought by Marshall that went into a 4x12 cab other than having more speakers for the higher powered amps. Guitar speakers were all low powered in those days. It would be so cool if you could do that test. Thank You so much. I enjoy your test videos......
Hi Donald, thanks for the comment. I have been wanting to make a front vs rear loaded video for a while. A lot of the tonal differences are due to cabinet design, how the cabinet is constructed in order to allow the speaker to be mounted that way but we could go quite in depth on that one, it is a great suggestion for a video.
Oh and a quick insight as to why we do it...... it is mostly a result of preferring a baffle to be screwed in place rather than fixed in to the main body of the cab and although you can do this with a front loaded speaker, I prefer a slightly thinner wood on the baffle (in most cases) and it is just more convenient to load the speakers from the back in that case. Loading the speaker from the front or rear makes minimal difference in that case in comparison with how the baffle is constructed, fit in to the cab and the thickness of wood.
I would have liked to have seen the graph for the bare speaker. I can't really hear any difference between the grill cloths, but I think I hear a difference between cloth and no-cloth.
Yeah Joe is class on the guitar. There really wasn't a massive difference between the grills... the thicker weaves killed a little bit of top end but not that much really.
Shocking differences really! I have decent Bose monitors on my PC and wow. Everything past the blues breaker stuff had a pretty big impact on the highs and the openness of the sound.
Here's a silly question for you. Is a 2x12 overkill volume wise for home use where I can't exactly crank my amp or is volume determined just by the amp
Mick it’s one of the questions I asked when I bought my Zilla in the summer. I ended up buying a Studio Pro 1x12 with a Creamback in it. I’m not saying this is right for you, but the advice I got ended up working really well for my needs, so I’m sure you’ll get the right cab for you if you get a Zilla.
@@sprintingforsigns oh I will with certainty be getting a Zilla, just trying to settle on which model and colour scheme :D I mainly play metal so want good headroom in the low end but a 1x12 fat baby might be more than enough for me. Choises choices..
HI Mick, there are no silly questions... this could be a video in itself! There is no reason not to get a 2x12 for home use but you can get really pleasing results from a 1x12. Cranking amps is cool but a second speaker in a cab isn't going to effect this as much as you would think, speaker efficiency (using a loud or quiet sounding speaker) can be as big an effect.... also spread of sound of a vertical 2x12 often means as you hear a cab better you wont need to play as loud. These all effect how you can crank your amp.... also you playing loud, me playing loud and what your neighbour considers loud are three different things ;) how loud do you play? And what kind of room will it be in?
@@ZillaCabs the point about the bigger cab having a better spred therefore possibly needing less volume makes a lot of sense as I find the main reason I turn my current 1x12 combo up is to get that low end. I'll be in touch in the next few days to put in my order once I pick a colour scheme. Thanks guys!
I think that depends on how loud you and your bandmates playing, how loud the PA is, and what the acoustics are of the room. I've definitely been to enough shows where the crowd is really noisy, but when the band starts up, all I can hear is the music, especially the guitar as I'm usually parked near at least one guitar. Then you add the projector beam nature of a 4x12, or other closed-back cab, I really hear the guitar clearly. But yeah, grill cloth? Nah. Whenever I've been able to crank my rig up, I'm more interested in what I 'think' I'm hearing. I've always felt that my tone is, well, MY tone. I'm more interested my being happy with my tone than sweating the small stuff that I know won't matter to the audience - though my wife knows the difference!
Just thought I'd stop by and say I really appreciate you guys taking the time to do these tests and sharing them.
Hi Hugo, that's very nice of you, thanks for that, it's our pleasure.
Terrific video gents. Really interesting.
I recently added an early 70 replica 4x12 with S&P grill cloth. It feels and sounds like cane when I run the back of my hand (nails) across it. Anyway, I can't believe how great this cab sounds compared to the 80s 1960A I had for over 25 years. I don't think it's any one thing, though I feel like the overall construction (built to original specs) is the biggest contributor, followed by speakers, and then grill cloth.
I'm guessing most would put speakers first, and until getting this cab, I would have felt the same way. But hearing the resonance of a well-made cab has allowed me to see the light.
At any rate, I enjoyed the vid and LOVED the tone!
Thanks guys. This was one of the things I was thinking about. Really hard to hear the differences over UA-cam, as you say the difference are subtle, so it's good to know that one can just choose a grill cloth on looks! Have a happy new year. Cheers
Thanks Patrick, I'm glad you like it. It was interesting to do and nice to finally A/B test them.
4:19 - Bare
4:24 - Oxblood
4:30 - Vox
4:36 - Black
4:42 - Bluesbreaker
4:48 - Salt & Pepper
4:54 - Basketweave
Really excellent methodology. My takeaway from this is that if you are in a recording situation pull the cloth if possible, better to get more than miss what you might want.
But in a live settings, be it practice or a gig those subtle differences are only going to be noticed by the player and maybe not at all.
Thanks I'm glad you liked it. We record a lot with grille cloth-less cabs as they are easier to mic too. Thanks for watching.
Great video! With my eyes shut and cranked through studio monitors there's one or two that stood out to me but otherwise it was real subtle. That Marshall sounds ace through all of them regardless.
Thanks mate, the difference was really subtle wasn't it.. I think the big difference would have been having a removable grill allowed the mic to be placed closer with the grill off (not that we recorded that option any closer)... that said I'm not sure closer would have sounded better, just different.
@@ZillaCabs closer to the speaker would increase the proximity effect. On a Mesa cab, it's quite common to pull a mic back 3cm+ from the grill, or you have to lower the bass on the Amp, making it sound anemic in the room. Plus it adds like a 2% in natural ambiance. It just makes things sound a little bit more natural.
Very nicely done, boys! It’s a question I’ve long had and I’m getting ready to change the grill cloth on a combo so it was timely for me to run across your vid. Much appreciated and greetings from Elkton, Maryland!
Excellent, thanks Brian, always good to hear from our brothers over in the States.
i think i can tell that Bluesbreaker and Basketweave are particularly smoother than the other styles of grill cloth.
...NOT IN BLIND TEST, though lol.
So then it’s placebo.
Thanks for the video I’m in the middle of building an 15”Peavey Scorpion plus cab , I’m going to use black burlap for my grill an this video helped me think about what I should use an I tested it an sounds just like I wanted more like the cane weaving from Orange even with more openings it’s thick cloth so it gave more deeper depth sound. Keep up the awesome work this helped me out a lot
Many thanks for this video. Is just great. I also appreciated the easy speaking and calm explanation, instead the fast and pseudo cool style abounding nowadays.
Thanks, I'm glad you liked it. We actually get told we talk too much haha but each to their own. I do like to try and explain what we are doing as there are always compromises in these kind of videos. Thanks again for watching.
Great video. It’s kinda cool it doesn’t impact the sound as much as you might expect.
Thanks. Yeah it is nice to be able to choose on looks alone... I did think there would be a greater effect but it is lucky that there isn't.
Great vid, guys! Thanks for putting your effort into this. Was expecting a bigger difference, too. Also it would be nice if we could hear the exact same part of a riff or lick each time and the naked cab at the end for a reference.
Thanks Alan, we were experimenting a lot with what to play in videos (repeat the riff and risk getting monotonous) but I agree for this kind of stuff repeating the riff would have worked best. We did do no grill for reference but there there was a glitch in the recording (computer just said no). I hope it was of some use though.
Zilla Cabs yeah very useful indeed! Great sound and playing btw. Keep up the good work!
The changes on the graph were extremely subtle. Most people need to hear a 3dB SPL change to hear a difference in volume. None of the graph changes looked anywhere near 3dB. I doubt even the best ears could tell much if any difference. I would have to see someone doing a double-blind test or even better still ABX testing to believe mere mortal ears could tell which cloth was which. Thanks for confirming what I suspected. Nobody in the audience will be able to hear a difference so pick the cloth that looks best to you. And if you think one cloth sounds better than the other use it. The most important thing is to do what makes you happy.
Really helpful vid guys, much appreciated Cheers
Glad you enjoyed it
Grill cloth VS a metal grill? Also when are you guys announcing the winner of your 1x12" giveaway?
We didn't have a metal grill that would have fit but that is a good follow up video for sure. Metal grills do make a difference..... we announced the winner on Boxingday, the chap was called Dean Cleaver, sorry you weren't the lucky guy.
It was interesting how the little tiny bump below the main bass resonance changed quite a bit: I wondered if it's the cab resonance changing due to the ports being blocked up more by some fabrics: some of the midrange changes may be due to this effect also shifting higher air modes around: interesting to do this with an open backed cab: might change its IR curve a lot less
Quite possibly.......... I've been meaning to see what the apertures in the grill would do to the peaks and troughs, and yeah we are moving over to testing with open and closed back cabs to show the difference. I think an open back test would definitely be worth it.... but then that said having no grill cloth didn't make a huge tonal difference. Thanks for the input Nick!
Underrated video. Thank you 🙏
thanke mate
Thanks for the video!!! I always wanted to know this. To my ears the Basketweave had the biggest impact on the sound with the high end being a little rolled off but, the others I could not really tell that much. I would of loved to see a metal grill here in the demo just to see what that does but, I assume its going to be just about the same as all theses other ones.
Woud've been nice to show the Frequency graphic without cloth and also to test with a metal grill.
I know, for some reason the file with that graph on wouldn't open when it came to editing, which was a shame.
Thanks for making this video. I have a bad cabinet and I'm trying to figure out what's wrong with it :)
No problem, I hope you have some success with your cab.
Very interesting. A distorted rhythm part would probably show the differences a little more.
You are right, this started out as just a quick test.... I kind of thought the results would be a bit more noticable so just did the one track. We have started recording clean, dirty rhythm, dirty rhythm with lead over the top and heavy for comparisons now.
@@ZillaCabs amazing! We should track something together one day! Happy new year!
@@LesonDeson We are always up for some colaborations for sure!
Don’t understand why you didn’t show the graph WITHOUT any cloth?// !!! That would have been the most interesting one and been a base to compare
Yeah it would have been better. Unfortunately the file got corrupted just before editing, so rather than not put the video out or repeat it, we did it as is/was. The sonically transparent grille had next to no effect. As it goes there is better software out there for that stuff so when it comes round to remaking the video we'll include it and in a more useful format.
@@ZillaCabs
It was a lot work,,,very interesting concept,,tnx for doing it,!
Great video. Thanks for doing this. I was interested in seeing the response of the orange Basketweave. Is that the same thing as a Cane Grill cloth? There is a lot of talk about how the cane grill cloth cuts highs. The graph does show minor cut in highs but certainly not noticeable to ears.
The cane is often just a different name for basketweeve. Although I can a different cloth cane. Thicker cloths will kill the top end but it was surprising in this video how it didn't seem to make as big a difference as you'd think. There are bigger factors that give an Orange 4x12 its sound than the grill.. the wood and several aspects of the construction are the major factors there. Thanks for watching, I'm glad you found it useful.
@@ZillaCabs Thanks for the reply. It was quite useful. Very scientific approach. I just used the cane grill cloth/basketweave in one of the cabinets.
Really good video guys, must have taken some time to sort! Question: do you know if guitar amp speaker cabinet cloth can be used for acoustic panels in a music studio as they look great but also allow sound to pass through?!
I love open back cabs and wanted to see if you would test Front mounting speaker on the baffle vs back mounting on the baffle to evaluate tone changes. It seems that 99% of the cabs are mounted on the back of the baffle. Even combo amps are back mounted where they could use the xtra room in the back with bigger frames and magnets if front mounted. I had 4 1x12 custom cabs made that mount only from the front because there is not enough room to get the speaker in through the back of the cab. It just never crossed my mind when I had them built. They are road ready cabs with metal grills like Mesa used to do. I am thinking that the biggest reason for all back baffle mounting is for aesthetics and putting a grill cloth on the front of cabs. I could be wrong and would want to know if their is some scientific reason for back baffle mounting. Stranger things have happened. I have read that there was no scientific acoustic thought by Marshall that went into a 4x12 cab other than having more speakers for the higher powered amps. Guitar speakers were all low powered in those days. It would be so cool if you could do that test. Thank You so much. I enjoy your test videos......
Hi Donald, thanks for the comment. I have been wanting to make a front vs rear loaded video for a while. A lot of the tonal differences are due to cabinet design, how the cabinet is constructed in order to allow the speaker to be mounted that way but we could go quite in depth on that one, it is a great suggestion for a video.
Oh and a quick insight as to why we do it...... it is mostly a result of preferring a baffle to be screwed in place rather than fixed in to the main body of the cab and although you can do this with a front loaded speaker, I prefer a slightly thinner wood on the baffle (in most cases) and it is just more convenient to load the speakers from the back in that case. Loading the speaker from the front or rear makes minimal difference in that case in comparison with how the baffle is constructed, fit in to the cab and the thickness of wood.
I would have liked to have seen the graph for the bare speaker. I can't really hear any difference between the grill cloths, but I think I hear a difference between cloth and no-cloth.
I couldn't tell the difference. My biggest take away is that the dude on the left is awesome at playing the guitar.
Yeah Joe is class on the guitar. There really wasn't a massive difference between the grills... the thicker weaves killed a little bit of top end but not that much really.
You should do rear vs front loaded shootout :)
I think we did it late in 2020. I want to redo the video though and go in to more depth.
Do you guys have merch I can purchase? Love the sweater
Hi mate... we should do. Fingers crossed we'll get one sorted soon.
@@ZillaCabs Should I shoot ya over an email to discuss any merch?
You should have had of waveform for the bare speaker
Yeah, we took one but during processing it messed up and as we had moved the mic we didn't think it would have been fair to redo it.
I don’t know if I am going insane, but doesn’t the box cloth clips sound a bit crunchier?
1st cloth cover smoothest
Grinchzilla! I'm a man of my word ;)
Before I start talking to the wrong person is Neil your real name? Your cab is well on its way.
@@ZillaCabs yup
@@ZillaCabs yeah sorry, i forgot which sign in i was using for my guitar stuff :)
@@BFGNeil sorry I thought you were someone else I know, the message may have sounded a bit cryptic haha,
@@ZillaCabs yes, did think so!
i want a hoodie like yours =)
heheheh
Great Video
Thanks mate, we will have some more soon.
@@ZillaCabs yeahhhhhhhhhhhhh
Zilla cabs tnks.
u are the best
Shocking differences really! I have decent Bose monitors on my PC and wow.
Everything past the blues breaker stuff had a pretty big impact on the highs and the openness of the sound.
Here's a silly question for you. Is a 2x12 overkill volume wise for home use where I can't exactly crank my amp or is volume determined just by the amp
Mick it’s one of the questions I asked when I bought my Zilla in the summer. I ended up buying a Studio Pro 1x12 with a Creamback in it. I’m not saying this is right for you, but the advice I got ended up working really well for my needs, so I’m sure you’ll get the right cab for you if you get a Zilla.
@@sprintingforsigns oh I will with certainty be getting a Zilla, just trying to settle on which model and colour scheme :D I mainly play metal so want good headroom in the low end but a 1x12 fat baby might be more than enough for me. Choises choices..
HI Mick, there are no silly questions... this could be a video in itself! There is no reason not to get a 2x12 for home use but you can get really pleasing results from a 1x12. Cranking amps is cool but a second speaker in a cab isn't going to effect this as much as you would think, speaker efficiency (using a loud or quiet sounding speaker) can be as big an effect.... also spread of sound of a vertical 2x12 often means as you hear a cab better you wont need to play as loud. These all effect how you can crank your amp.... also you playing loud, me playing loud and what your neighbour considers loud are three different things ;) how loud do you play? And what kind of room will it be in?
@@ZillaCabs the point about the bigger cab having a better spred therefore possibly needing less volume makes a lot of sense as I find the main reason I turn my current 1x12 combo up is to get that low end. I'll be in touch in the next few days to put in my order once I pick a colour scheme. Thanks guys!
@@lowhangingvegetable excellent, thanks Mick. Any questions just ask.
Ok might sound a little weird ' how about using a blind instead of a grill cloth, open and close to get desired tone.
Imo, Oxblood was closest to nothing. Honestly, not enough to sweat.
Yeah that's where we were with this.
In a noisy ass venue, NOBODY CARES.
Sure, in a noisy venue no one cares what speaker, pedals, amp or guitar you're playing either
I think that depends on how loud you and your bandmates playing, how loud the PA is, and what the acoustics are of the room. I've definitely been to enough shows where the crowd is really noisy, but when the band starts up, all I can hear is the music, especially the guitar as I'm usually parked near at least one guitar. Then you add the projector beam nature of a 4x12, or other closed-back cab, I really hear the guitar clearly. But yeah, grill cloth? Nah. Whenever I've been able to crank my rig up, I'm more interested in what I 'think' I'm hearing.
I've always felt that my tone is, well, MY tone. I'm more interested my being happy with my tone than sweating the small stuff that I know won't matter to the audience - though my wife knows the difference!