The fat simple guy is TOYMAN and I think Frank thinks ugly dolls are creepy and dangerous; had no idea the THUNDER AGENTS/RAVEN connection! Thanks Tom!
If you're going down the rabbit hole, check out book 3, when Batman masquerades as an old woman... who looks like Carmen Cru, a comic book character Miller might have seen in French Ticklers. Note the French colors of the scarf! Although I remember Bats masked similarly in Detective 411. Is it a common trope? There's stuff like that in DKSA as well; the Kryptonite gauntlets go all the way back to a 1968 issue of World's Finest... I've always wondered about that iconic scene when he rides the horse - is it a reference to Zorro?
It's funny cos at the time when it came out I thought they were part of Batman lore I wasn't aware of. Love how they're not explained at all. I think you've cracked it Tom! Great video hope there's many more!
I had just assumed that guy working for joker was toyman who had built himself robotic children for his own upsetting reasons and joker upon seeing them thought it would be a hoot to turn these facsimiles of innocent youth into instruments of death but honestly now i hope your right cuz i LOVE a comic artist making super deep cut references to comics only like five people remember.
When I read The Dark Knight Returns, I never understood the dolls. I've never seen anything like them before or since. Your theory makes as much sense as anything.
Excellent pull, Tom. Those Dark Knight Kayfabe episodes are among my favorite from the channel. In high school, our cross country coach was also an English teacher. Someone on the team, lent him the the issues to read. He loved it, but was baffled by the dolls. lol. Tom, have you viewed the live stream, ‘Jack Kirby: A Farewell to the King’ ? Recommended!
This is weirdly fate. I watched the 2 part TDKR animated film last night and when it got to Abner my wife went "who's he supposed to be?". I told her "I'm pretty sure it's Toy Man or Humpty Dumpty." and did the cursory search and it ended with a deep dive into the character and "who" he is.
Fascinating pull, Tom! Speaking of the DKR Kayfabe discussion, you mentioned an alternate ending that was floated where Batman has to escape the GCPD and becomes a leader of the underworld-- that has always totally captured my imagination, but I've never been able to find more info on it. Do you recall where that info came from? I'd love to know more.
I have always loved, yet never fully grasped the hover-doll- bombs of DKR. It's a quirk of the series that makes virtually no sense but brings an essential, if nonsensical ingredient to the dour, operatic tone of the work overall.
The TV talking heads always seemed to me to be a device lifted from Chaykin’s AMERICAN FLAGG (to great effect! I don’t blame Miller for utilizing it.).
It was one of the first DC things I ever read. I found it odd but assumed that it was an established thing in older comics. Although later I realized that wasn't the case.
Total shot in the dark that probably isn't right: It's another way of calling someone childish or a mama's boy/girl. They never grew up to ween off of mother's milk. Another, More Likely Guess: Future slang to give the future its own feeling while still sounding as casual as the insults and words we have today. Like Batman Beyond's "shway," but mean rather than a compliment.
The child bomb robot gimmick was also appropriated by Harlan Ellison, in that weird but very cool two issue story arc he wrote for Daredevil in the 80s.
These Frank Miller videos are fascinating. Please them coming. Thanks, Tom.
The fat simple guy is TOYMAN and I think Frank thinks ugly dolls are creepy and dangerous; had no idea the THUNDER AGENTS/RAVEN connection! Thanks Tom!
As a kid …in 2002…I thought the dolls were a toy man reference
The Harlan Ellison written Daredevil’s 208 and 209 also has similar exploding robot children. Frank and Harlan were good friends.
If you're going down the rabbit hole, check out book 3, when Batman masquerades as an old woman... who looks like Carmen Cru, a comic book character Miller might have seen in French Ticklers. Note the French colors of the scarf! Although I remember Bats masked similarly in Detective 411. Is it a common trope? There's stuff like that in DKSA as well; the Kryptonite gauntlets go all the way back to a 1968 issue of World's Finest... I've always wondered about that iconic scene when he rides the horse - is it a reference to Zorro?
It's funny cos at the time when it came out I thought they were part of Batman lore I wasn't aware of. Love how they're not explained at all. I think you've cracked it Tom! Great video hope there's many more!
I had just assumed that guy working for joker was toyman who had built himself robotic children for his own upsetting reasons and joker upon seeing them thought it would be a hoot to turn these facsimiles of innocent youth into instruments of death but honestly now i hope your right cuz i LOVE a comic artist making super deep cut references to comics only like five people remember.
Fascinating! So creepy. Thanks for sharing.
When I read The Dark Knight Returns, I never understood the dolls. I've never seen anything like them before or since. Your theory makes as much sense as anything.
Excellent pull, Tom. Those Dark Knight Kayfabe episodes are among my favorite from the channel. In high school, our cross country coach was also an English teacher. Someone on the team, lent him the the issues to read. He loved it, but was baffled by the dolls. lol. Tom, have you viewed the live stream, ‘Jack Kirby: A Farewell to the King’ ? Recommended!
This is weirdly fate. I watched the 2 part TDKR animated film last night and when it got to Abner my wife went "who's he supposed to be?". I told her "I'm pretty sure it's Toy Man or Humpty Dumpty." and did the cursory search and it ended with a deep dive into the character and "who" he is.
Fantastic find & connection 👍
Manny stallman is incredible! He has a great short in creepy! I love his work in thunder agents!
Neat possible connection
I just assumed they were robots that just so happened to be life-like
Humpty Dumpty built them. So I don't question it. He fixes things. He fixes people.
Also what’s up with the slang the gang members us? I always loved it.
Fascinating pull, Tom!
Speaking of the DKR Kayfabe discussion, you mentioned an alternate ending that was floated where Batman has to escape the GCPD and becomes a leader of the underworld-- that has always totally captured my imagination, but I've never been able to find more info on it. Do you recall where that info came from? I'd love to know more.
The Dark Knight Returns: Frank Miller’s Original LOST Ending!
ua-cam.com/video/Yj1Vf86R0a0/v-deo.html
Oh, cool reference!...Is Bruno a reference to anything?
I have always loved, yet never fully grasped the hover-doll- bombs of DKR. It's a quirk of the series that makes virtually no sense but brings an essential, if nonsensical ingredient to the dour, operatic tone of the work overall.
The TV talking heads always seemed to me to be a device lifted from Chaykin’s AMERICAN FLAGG (to great effect! I don’t blame Miller for utilizing it.).
Agreed, the layouts and storytelling are completely the same
It was one of the first DC things I ever read. I found it odd but assumed that it was an established thing in older comics. Although later I realized that wasn't the case.
Can you explain whats up with the Evil Teddybear in the Anime Pluto?
I'm more curious as to what a milk baby is. I've never hears that as an insult. Carrie even mentioned later how Toyman smells like milk too
Total shot in the dark that probably isn't right: It's another way of calling someone childish or a mama's boy/girl. They never grew up to ween off of mother's milk.
Another, More Likely Guess: Future slang to give the future its own feeling while still sounding as casual as the insults and words we have today. Like Batman Beyond's "shway," but mean rather than a compliment.
@@seantaylor424 I always assumed it meant childish or immature.
The child bomb robot gimmick was also appropriated by Harlan Ellison, in that weird but very cool two issue story arc he wrote for Daredevil in the 80s.
The daredevil Harlan Ellison issues came out years before dark knight returns
: O