Mixing Loud with CTZ - Ep. 20 - Limiters vs Clippers
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- Опубліковано 2 жов 2024
- In this video, I expand on the difference between using a clipper versus using a limiter to control your peaks.
This is episode 20 in a series about how to mix for loudness, in large part by using a specific approach to gainstaging and dynamic range control that I call the "Clip-to-Zero (CTZ) strategy".
Find all of the "Mixing LOUD with CTZ" episodes in one convenient playlist:
• Mixing Loud with the C...
Wondering what the CTZ Strategy is? Start with this short 17-page written guide. Find it here at docs.google.co...)
This is NOT paid promotion. All the tools you'll see me using or hear me mention were paid for by myself. These are just great tools that I use every day, and that I personally endorse.
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Big shoutout to niico for the amazing credit reel graphics!
Did you know that niico is also a great producer? Check out their work at:
www.beatstars....
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Credit reel graphics: www.beatstars....
Credit reel music: Baphometrix
Thanks for sharing your knowledge. The CTZ series is pure gold!
Pro L 2 does have a clipper built in FYI - "safe" algorithm disables this. I can elaborate more on this but TrackLimit is just fine and probably easier to grasp for most doing this - but if you use Pro L 2, disable that clipper with "safe" algorithm.
I never knew this, thank you
I have dreams about limiters and clippers.
Same lol
That was the most revealing and illuminating reason as to why/when you’d want to use a limiter. Would adjusting the soften knob have yielded results similar to track limit on the premaster channel?
No. A soft clipper would not have yielded the same result. You'd still hear the clipping. It would just be slightly different sounding, more like a colored saturator would sound. Remember, the goal of CTZ is to be as "transparent" as possible in the clipping stage. Sometimes a clipper is just right. Sometimes you need a limiter instead. Problem is most full mastering limiters are huge resource hogs, so you cannot stack them all over your project. TrackLimit is a very special tool. It barely uses any more resources per-instance than KClip does.
Oh and yes pro l2 apparently does have two limiter stages and the modes change the behaviour as well as the look ahead/attack knob. So it’s essentially a clipper/fast limiter and then a program dependant one for like sustained limiting (something like that).
I might be getting ahead here and I apologize if you already talked about this and I missed it. Will you be discussing compression at the mastering stage? I have been experimenting with different exports and I feel like I want compression on my master with CTZ but I also feel like I’m not doing it right. Thanks for the awesome info. Looking forward to more :)
I will definitely be doing an episode (soon-ish) about how to pull off typical bus compression on the mixbus in a CTZ-gainstaged project. The short story for now is that because you typically want your bus compressor to accentuate the downbeats and backbeats, the trick is getting whichever mastering compressor you're using to react only (mostly) to the kick and snare. (Or whatever instruments are the loudest impulses that are outlining your main downbeat/backbeat rhythm.) If you use a mastering compressor that can take sidechain inputs, the answer is simple: just feed your drum bus into the side chain. The kick and snare will be the loudest things in the drum bus so your compressor will get triggered only by those. If you're using a compressor that doesn't respond to an external sidechain input (such as Unisum by Tone Projects), then you need to use the sidechain filter controls to find that part of the spectrum where the main "crack' of the kick and snare are both happening.
Great explanation, I still heard a little crackle on one note of the pluck combined with the kick using tracklimit, compared to KClip. But that is obviously masked in the whole mix.
Yep. Ultimately, TrackLimit is nearly as lightweight as a simple hard clipper like KClip. So we have a choice for the best results. And yes, even if you can hear a tiny bit of clipping when you solo a track or bus, the big question is whether it's masked in the full mix. Or even whether it **enhances** the sound/mix in some way. One obvious example being that a tiny amount of audible clipping on the transient part of a kick or snare can actually "sound better" in the overall context of a dense, busy mix.
@@Baphometrix i 100% agree.I guess the only point could be that in less dense moments of the mix, especially on more "round" sounds, this could become audible and unpleasant, but it's obviously a different scenario and you could as a last resort duplicate that sound and process it less with TrackLimit. Anyhow, bravo!
Very very nice !
Been experimenting with a target lufs amount on subgroups and a limiter instead of clipper.
Lmao I was literally just researching this this morning. Thank you
The kick/snare at the beginning sound like "Closer" by NIN .. great! ;)
Trent is kinda-sorta the progenitor of mid-tempo bass!
Trent got me into production
Hi and thanks so much for your CTZ technique I really like it, I'm trying it and I notice a new loudness in my tracks. I want to ask you something about the analog emulated VST and where they should be put in the rack, cause of their -18 db RMS sweetspot. I think they should be put in front of the gainstaging process of the clipper/limiter right?
I explain all this in Episode 10
I like this approach but I don't use it all the time. If relative RMS is balanced across the mix, you can limit heavily further into the process and it will all gel nicely with minimal readjustments needed. Doing it this way I have no problem hitting -6 RMS without distortion. Of course I do sidechaining, but more as needed, not because I automatically have to from having such high RMS anchor points. Using limiting and clipping across individual tracks and mixbusses def helps get a louder mix, I just like to work my way up as the mix progresses :)
Yep. The principles are the same regardless of where you like to gainstage the RMS levels. Thing is, I find it a lot easier to set the gainstaging high like this because there are potential problems you won't hear (or see) until you squash everything into the target dynamic range.
Cake lip is my favorite clipper. 🎂 👄
WIN
@@Baphometrix 🙏🙏🙏
One thing I think that’s important to point out is that it’s when the sustain or tonal body of the sound starts getting pushed into the clipper, that’s what you definitely start hearing audible distortion. And then occasionally on some tones of transients (usually rounder ones) you can hear distortion on some.
Very true!
I was surprised at how many people thought limiters and clippers are different flavours of eachother. To a degree I mean I guess it’s true if the limiter has essentially a nonexistent release time but, my way of describing them was that a limiter TURNS DOWN what’s too loud to back under the threshold, whereas a clipper literally trades off dynamic power for harmonic content. But I love clippers I was always attracted to the idea of clipping, it’s just so crunchy and slappy xD
If the pluck is adding too much level to the bus when it sums, could you also reduce the dynamic range of that pluck? Like saturate, limit or clip the pluck itself to keep the same loudness, but with less level going into the bus??? Wouldn't that reduce the amount of clipping at the bus?
Baphy. Any thoughts on sonnox inflator. I don’t know what it is. I have it. Wondering if it could fit into this Clip to zero framework
Think of Inflator as being another type of clipper and/or saturator. It can be very transparent. It's a little... awkward and confusing... to set up properly and explain to people, though. Which is why I don't mention it much or show it in use in my videos.
@@Baphometrix thanks a lot. I reckon i will give it a try. Too many plugins just sitting there. Saturate is on special for half price at the moment so I will get that too
Watching and enjoying from South Africa.
yes, Cape Town in the house
@@NevilleDMusicTV Limpopo is clipping at the source too💪💪💪
The way you examine the waveforms and really look to see what is going on is awesome. I like to get really into the details as well and lots of people think its overkill what im trying to do or think that im wasting time on frivolous things but this just goes to show how important all of this detail work is. Its not just about throwing sounds together that sound good. Its really seeing what the waveforms are doing and how they are interacting with one another and the difference in certain plugins vs other ones that do the same things but achieve different results. Thanks for all your help!!
Do you think because the second synth sound had lots of reverb that is why it wasn't crackling? So if you just add reverb to the original synth sound it might get rid of the crackle? Just what is running through my head and I'm interested if adding reverb would solve the issue or make it worse?
I've been waiting for another episode . Thanks for all you're doing.
What I don't get is if limiters are more transparent then why not just use limiters instead of clippers?
Because they sound different than a clipper. Less transparent, in some ways. But in certain cases, they sound "better". At the end of the day you need both.
@@Baphometrix I'll give both a try! Thanks
I’ll never stop learning knowing you! Thanks Baphy 🙏🍀
Psyscope has been a great investment
Have you ever used Toneboosters Barricade or PSP Xenon? If so, what are your thoughts? I've heard good things about those limiters when working in loud genres
There are plenty of good limiters out there. Especially if you're not overworking them. Have I used those specific two limiters? No. I have a mastering engineer friend who does very much like PSP Xenon.
Amazing series! Thanks Baph for all your hard work
The content your sharing is by far the best on youtube. It is not like I need my mixes ridiculously loud, but the idea of working in a already loud evironment made a bunch of light bulbs ignite for me. Thanks for that Baphy! Only thing you need to double check with this method is how does the mix sound with a low volume/gain. I found some of my work sounded crisp and clean when playing it on high volume, but then found some issues that only were audible while on a low volume. Nevertheless, the technique gives way better results than I had with conventional mixing. Big ups from Norway!
Checking for balance and other things at extremely low (barely perceptible) listening levels is always good practice. Even if you're gainstaging and clipping the CTZ way.
Such a great video 👍👍 Question: does increasing the over sampling in Kclip ultimately resolve the “dirt”? I was curious if that could be an option to solve for these problems.
Yes but you don't want to use oversampling. If you're hearing "dirt" and it sounds "bad", then you're simply hard clipping that sound too much. You can either clip less until the little "spit" of noise is effectively masked/transparent, or you can try a soft-clipping setting instead, or use TrackLimit.
Great video again. Always happy to see more info from you. I noticed in the beginning of your videos there is a section coming talking about True peak. I am being patient as you will eventually get there but is True peak completely omitted from the CTZ strategy?
Yeah, spoiler alert: I'm very much against using True Peak for anything. Especially for limiting. Details here if you want to read ahead of the upcoming video episode: docs.google.com/document/d/1Ogxa5-X_QdbtfLLQ_2mDEgPgHxNRLebQ7pps3rXewPM/edit#heading=h.xa6coj4lv8uh
How do you know if a sample is already clipped or not?
Usually the file; on the tail has a little notch, like it’s been shaved slightly,
@@Clamjahahghff What Sheldon said. You'll see little flat-topped segments on the original waveform. It's common to see this in drum sample packs, for example, on kicks and snares that have already been squashed pretty hard so that they sound loud and impressive.
I was originally using the ARC setting on my limiter in the PREMASTER BUS, but 50ms sounds way better. thanks
I don't know I forgot to finish the 2nd half of the video, but I'm sure glad I decided to get a refresher
Yo man.nice job as always wanna ask you if you can clarify wht exactly interjection bus i really didnt get it and dont even remember where you talk about tht i remeber u set a gate instead of a ducker but really didnt get when and why use gate instead a ducker
ua-cam.com/video/B1FDzgEYNjo/v-deo.html
Woooah, a 250 bucks limiter.
I should make any song sounds better than any other we made before... :-)
Thanx a lot for another really cool vídeo!
TrackLimit is only around $50... .you might be thinking of its big brother, called "Limitless". Be sure to look on their site for "TrackLimit".
@@Baphometrix Oh, I really hope you're right.
'Cause suddenly, the CTZ method became a far, far a way fading out image... :-))
Thank you for the tip. I'll check it out...
Question, are you still recommending KCLIP?
I have Voxengo OVC-128 and Newfangled Saturate. I also saw that Voxengo has a "hard clipper" in their tape bus. Additionally I saw @ill.gates mention using a "wave shaper" that more or less does the same thing as soft or hard clipping depending on the waveform which you can see visually.
Given any asides from the above would you still say KCLIP is the way to go? I'm toying with whether or not to supplement what I have with KCLIP or Standard Clip.
Phenomenal stuff
great episode, helped me a lot, thanks
Nice tutorials!!! Thanks very much!!! Did you ever tried the Clipping to Zero technique with Izotopes Ozon and Neutron? Warm regards David
The simple answer is that Neutron is a huge, latency-inducing plugin and isn't suitable for use as a lightweight "always on" clipper/limiter of any sort in this method of dynamic range control and gainstaging. Same deal for Ozone or any large, resource-intensive mastering limiter. TrackLimit is special and unique in that it gives you 95% of the goodness of a limiter, but in a form that is incredibly light on resource usage. It's the only limiter I've found that works well in this method of dynamic range control and gainstaging.
Hi @@Baphometrix, I asked because I tried Neutron in my latest mix with KClip3 at the end and it sounds fabulous and gives the flexibility with Sculptor etc before clipping. Do have a monster computer so I have no problem with resources for the moment. Also installed the Blue Cat gain plugin for interconnected gain control! Thanks for the tip! Makes life a lot more relaxed.
Great stuff as always ! thank you
These videos are great, but honestly so long to impart information that could take a few minutes
There is another option, change the riff so when the kick sounds the pluck does not. What about using the 4 bands option of kclipffor the pre master? I think it sounds cleaner, and thanks for all this info, you are awesome
Sure of course. Loudness starts with arrangement. I go over that in earlier episodes in this series. As for multiband clipping, there's a place for it, but it gets into more esoteric territory, and my goal with this series is to show how simple wideband clipping/saturation/limiting (all "clipping" in a broader sense) is very powerful and effective. It's essentially mimicking in the digital DAW world what mix engineers have done since forever in their analog mixing desks and tape: pushing the signal hard into the "ceiling" of their circuits and their tape media.
@@Baphometrix nice, I learned the arrangement philosophy from you. These series are awesome, thanks for the answer and the hard work.
How do I balance vocals with rest of the mix . is ctz method applicable to vocal balance within the mix?
Yes of course you can use vocals in a CTZ project. I do it in this one right here, which features a vocal track: ua-cam.com/video/MB67rbwm3as/v-deo.html
@@Baphometrix thanks for the answers
which software/Daw is this ??
Bitwig Studio. It's essentially the new Ableton. (Ducks and runs from the Ableton users!)
@@Baphometrix Main Differences Between Bitwig vs Ableton
Bitwig is significantly cheaper, whereas Ableton is more expensive. Bitwig has a small audio FX library, whereas Ableton has a much larger audio FX library.
@@Baphometrix Don't forget Max4Live tools
@@Baphometrix Nothing can compete with Bitwigs loading times and price tho, but then again, you gotta buy more 3rd party stuff to get the sounds you need.
@@JoelLinus The ongoing price is about the same between Bitwig and Ableton. "To get the sounds you need" is very relative, depending on each producer's goals and the genres of music they produce.
WOOHOO!
hi again! I've seen all your 20 videos about CTZ....there are many good advises in and I certainly try many of them. The only thing that hurt my brain is your meters touching the sky and in my old school way of working and for many reasons, I think it is a little bit crazy and not necessary for mixing loud.
So, why not considering your 0 is at -12dbfs and do the same thing and setup your KClip threshold at -12 to react like you at 0, put your sub at -18 etc etc.. If I'm not wrong, it does the same, and you'll have the same dynamic range juste 12db lower.? you can get 6dblufs as you are peaking at -12 non?
Ok you say, for comparaison with reference track but you use Metric A/B , right? why do not lower your reference track by -12db to compare, that's why this plugin exist no? and just push your monitor up to have the feeling of loudness.
In that way, you don't have to deal with analog emulation plugins input as you work like an old school analog way and all your technics work the same, just setup your oscilloscope to this reference .
Ok, you quote Lucas and other good engineers, but sorry, I've never seen them working in that way. ok they use clipping, limiting, saturation etc , that's not a problem for loud mix and I'm agree with that...but they are analog and they work in that way...let me know your point of thinking about that.
You mention that you have an "old school way of thinking". Lets go slightly OLDER school... back to the 70s, 80s, and 90s before the days that ProTools (and then other DAWs) became ubiquitous.
What did engineers do back then? They ran the signal HOT into many channel of their mixing desks, right up against the headroom of the channel circuits. They ran the signal HOT into tape. They took advantage of the natural soft-clipping caused by driving the signal PAST the ceiling of their analog circuitry and analog media.
This is exactly what we're doing when we gainstage so that the signal can be pushed into a cascade of passive hard/soft clippers (and limiters) sitting on every track and bus. We're essentially duplicated how everyone used to work in the days of analog.
As to your question about where to set the "virtual zero" (such as clipping everything at -12 dBFS), you certainly could do that, and the result would be the same. But you'll find it's much harder and more tedious to actually set that virtual ceiling anywhere other than at 0 dBFS.
As for Luca and what he does or doesn't do, I mean, have you seen this video where talks about "clipping to zero"? ua-cam.com/video/Hnl7QiQVEXo/v-deo.html
@@Baphometrix yes sure we did that because we have headroom in the analog world and going in the red create beautiful sound as you 've just saying and they did that because they had no other choice to produce this type of sound... in digital world there is no reason to do that as we can reproduce the same effect at lower volume, especially since now we work in 32bits with plainly of room for working and "good" analog emulation to do that and I love using them a lot and good clipping tools too for this task... but as I say, I will try your way because I love new experiences and open my mind on other things. the only thing that really disturb me are all the goes and returns with the dpmeter which is a waste of time for me when you using a lot console or hardware emulation and my meters which become unusable in this way of working...I love the K system way for working sorry if you don't 🤣🙌
@@Baphometrix Yes I've seen this ....he just stressing a clipper to know if it's a good clipper or not, look at his session before nothing go to hell and clipping to zero don't mean your faders must be at zero. I'm using clipping technique a lot too as saturation less limiting because I don't like what they produce, but I don't see him working in your way...sorry !
@@Baphometrix ok I spent my night reading and testing, testing and testing again🤣
- it works fine in your way if you stay ITB only and don't work with too much analog emulation plugins because it gets crazy when you continually readjust your mix before CTZ and a lot of waste of time when you go outside the daw. it makes me do a lot more manipulations than my traditional way of mixing....Maybe I missed something with what you are doing before applying CTZ....your mixing stage must be done before or are you mixing with CTZ in?
- it works fine when you can put your aux send in the groups....that's not my case and I find it changes too much the relationship between my tracks and there FX send and I have external FX too and here it becomes too crazy and again a waste of time.
- I find linking and un linking in Kclip boring, in my way, I don't have to, perceive volume stay the same in all the process and I think it's the thing that confuses me the most in your way of doing things, and i can keep an eye on my vu meters.
However the result are nearly the same, the mix sounds loud in the too way....but I find, my way a little bit cleaner, open and deep than your due maybe with aux send that are not in my groups...I don't know, I must study and practice more to know where it comes from.
thanks for all 🙌
Legend
I have one question about also like Limiting. I want to release a song on Spotify and my song is now -5 LUFS Intergrated.(so this if for example for festival or party)
And Spotify wants -14 LUFS. I want to do a gain on my master and lower it to -14 LUFS. Should I also Limit and add for like 2 Gain/LUFS so that I get to -12 LUFS with limiter? Or how can I best do this?
The answer is to not master to -14 LUFS; instead, master the track louder until it stops sounding good. -14 is a completely arbitrary number and absolutely not the best answer for every single track; some might sound better mastered to like -6 and then turned down by Spotify than they would sound at -14 natively.
Don't make the mistake of mastering different outputs for different platforms. One master to rule them all. My detailed thoughts about this here: docs.google.com/document/d/1Ogxa5-X_QdbtfLLQ_2mDEgPgHxNRLebQ7pps3rXewPM/edit#heading=h.h86oecwgie0f
@@shinon_shn @@shinon_shn But if you upload your hard mastered song with -5 LUFS and Spotify turn it down on to -14LUFs the audio is one squared compressed package right?
@@Baphometrix But if you upload your hard mastered song with -5 LUFS and Spotify turn it down on to -14LUFs the audio is one squared compressed package right?
@@pietpales It doesn't really work like that. "loud" does not mean "flat sausauge waveform" if you do LOUD the right way. Does this song look like a sausage waveform to you? This song is loud and hits -6.3 LUFS integrated in its loudest section. And it will sound just as "punchy" and "dynamic" as anything else on Spotify, etc. If not more so: gyazo.com/ee25fc1438ecab039c5567b60369dece
Any reason you use tracklimit over limitless?
less cpu than limitless. that's why she uses it over any of the standard mastering limiters
@@sunder572 Was that the only reason? Not trying to avoid multiband limiting?
@@kylehegger5549 I assume only reason. I actually think multiband would be better if it weren't so much CPU.
@@sunder572 Id also imagine multiband to be better but then he is using tracklimit more as a "clipper" and in a very transparent way.
What everyone said above. I do have Limitless and I do use it as a mastering limiter on my Master bus. TrackLimit is for TRACKS and normal project busses. You cannot put a full-blown mastering limiter like Limitless or Pro-L2, etc on multiple tracks/busses, or you'll run out of resources very fast. TrackLimit is incredibly lightweight, using not much more resources than a clipper.
You are Gold my man, thanks for this new vid, been here since long and each video is amazing