Expensive to manufacture correctly, with a limited market. "Bring back the ABC 123, I'll buy one!" "What? There's no way I'm paying that much for an ABC 123!"
Yeah it's always that way with the concept of reproducing old technology now. I've seen it in firearm, car and camera communities all; "I'd so buy a reproduction blah blah blah" but then they don't realise how insanely fast it adds up to manufacture these things especially if they are only being made in small quantities for a niche market. It would take some serious oil baron money to be able to fund those kinds of projects enough just to get off the ground even. So many people including myself would love to be able to buy a brand new fresh off the line Corolla AE86 or Canon F1 or [insert rare historical firearm], but unfortunately so many people including myself could never afford them in the unlikely event the were being made and sold.
Yeah, and it's tricky too because everywhere you could... not cut a corner, exactly, but change anything, maybe use an off-the-shelf spring instead of the original (which has the same specs but is a slightly thicker wire tempered slightly differently and which you'd have to make yourself). Well, you split your market even farther: if there were 15,000 people who wanted an ABC 123, maybe there are 10,000 who would want to pay $3k for the new-spring design, but 5,000 people absolutely wouldn't accept that change even if it means they pay $4000. So your market just shrank even more either way you make that call.
Yep. Excellent firearm business analysis, and he's practically the only person who can speak about the business aspect of firearm topics in this manner.
I am totally in awe about how Ian gets through this without stopping or cutting. There was this one video where he was talking and you could see the reflection of his setup in the glass behind him, and it really just was a camera on a tripod and Ian talking twenty minutes, no stops, no Er Ehm, no nothing. Impressive.
The result of literal years of scripting, speaking whilst recording and researching, as well as his built and demonstrated knowledge of firearms. We're lucky to have this fellow for certain.
I feel like a 9x19mm Mauser C96 would be a perfect candidate for this type of reproduction. Some versions could be made exclusively as pistols, others as SBRs. The C96 has already been chambered in 9x19mm with great success, the gun is incredibly iconic the world over, while they are not insanely expensive, they are pricier than the average person would like to pay, especially for a red nine. Further, no magazines to worry about and there are already aftermarket manufacturers of 9mm stripper clips. I could also see relaunching a limited line in the original 7.63 Mauser, and perhaps adapting a version to take 7.62 Tokarev in time. I would happily pay $1200 for a 9mm C96 that I could take to the range and shoot without a care. I'd feel awful putting many rounds through an original.
You feel bad for shooting a C96 too often and then there are some despisable Star Wars fans who make their C96 suffer a fate worse than death. It's sad that not everyone is like you in that regard, historical weapons should really be treated like a piece of history
@@KuK137 The Mausers they destroy are still shooting. They are just not historically accurate anymore. And considering how many guns are produced every day, one less "killjunk" falls into insignificance. Especially considering that the Star Wars blaster would still shoot regular bullets.
You might not believe me Mr. McCollum but Avtomat Fyodorova is one of the reason I got into gunsmithing and successfully finished studying gunsmithing in CZ Uherský Brod. Also part of it is because of you and your older video on Fedorov from 2011 and than 2018. It is my dream to make small reproduction of this gun and reason to keep working as a gunsmith. Btw I was in one of the classes that wisited you while you were filming in CZ UB, It was awesome to talk with you ! J.P.
Fingers crossed! Legendary if not that well known gun, produced in small quantity so yeah, a fresh batch would be quite something. When it comes to such historical guns I'd love to see reproduced Bergmann MP18 with its original WWI magasine. Again, a historical gun that was produced in small numbers.
@@Calm_Plier Depends on used material and design of the custom part. You can use these basic materials and their combination: Plastic, wood and various metals. -There are many methods to shape plastic into a certain things. Injection molding or similar are cost effective for mass production so I would went with 3D printing since it is one of the best ways to make prototype/custom parts. -Than there is wood. I was thought how to process and shape wood in nice stock, pistol grip or handguard, but it takes much greater amount of time to finish it. There are different kinds of wood that varies in strength and their behaviour, not to mention that good piece of wood is expensive. -Last one of them is metal (usually some kind of aluminum alloy). The design of the part plays a big role because you need to know what methods to use. Complexity is your greatest enemy. Lots of operation, nearly all of them you could do ,,manually,, on milling machine or lathe. Now, that takes extreme amount time. Everything changes once you have expensive CNC machines and know how to program. In the end I would personally go with 3D printing and place metal heat shielding inside (like it is done on lots of AR-15 plastic handguards)
I worked in factory and had seen so many failed projects got started because someone felt that "it would sell well enough to justify it". The problem was these people did not know how much sell was actually needed to keep the operation going.
I really wish the stg and fg were reproduced. I'd love to go shooting with those every summer, my two favorite ww2 rifles. Also I wonder why there are no side mag rifles nowadays, it seems like a unique and good idea for some applications
@@Sero12245 Huge fan of the STG and FG. FG I think might be neat, but the STG (H) was made with "stamped" metal and with close to no actual maintenance options... (The STG (M) was made to be maintanted and used for longer periods). They were made to have a service life that compared to the "Period they were likely to be used" meaning the dismantling, cleaning etc is pretty much impossible for them... They work, when they don't it's more of a "Jesus christ I never expected you to live longer than the gun! Here have a new one instead" concept... One of the reasons that so few of them survived to a "servicable" condition at this date, while we still have so many K98's and MP40's.
you can have 100 people say yes they'd buy it, but you're lucky to get 20 people out of the 100 that actually have the money to buy them, and maybe less than half that actually buys
Example: Currently there are many people saying if Ruger brings back the Marlin 39A to the original standards they would buy one. No, most of them wouldn't, not at the price Ruger would need to charge.
Yep, I'm one of the folks who would love to have PSAs STG, but am pretty sure I won't get one till I find it used being sold by someone who just lost their job, or some other rotten scenario.
This is why the Street Performer Protocol exists, aka Kickstarter. People's word that they would buy is worthless; a prepaid pledge at a reward tier that includes one unit of the item is a guaranteed sale. And if a manufacturer sees 10,000 people say they will buy one, but only 500 people actually pledge, they can safely just refund the pledges and refuse to tool up. And none of those 9,500 no-shows can complain at all, because their choice was to put up or shut up, and they sure as hell didn't put up.
That's the same with any product brought to market. Manufacturer shows off new thing at trade show. Everyone oohs and aahs says "I really want one." Some people will put down a deposit with 100% certainty they'll buy one. Life happens, tastes change, specs of new thing change slightly and they end up not buying.
For Non-commercial reproductions, there’s a decent community here making guns throughout early history (12th century - 16th century), but of course it’s not profitable to make it commercial as the market is too niche.
@@zhangtony3372 I own a fire lance for home defense, since that's what the Song dynasty intended. Four nomadic raiders break into my house. "By Buddha's belly!" as I grab my spread-horn head cover and Huochong hand cannon. Blow a golf ball sized hole through the first man, he's dead on the spot. Draw my hand grenade on the second man, miss him entirely because my agrarian arms and detonate the neighbor's dog. I have to resort to the pneumatic flamethrower mounted at the top of the stairs loaded with fierce fire oil, "人生如同白駒過隙!" the fire oil incinerates two men in the blast, the smoke and screams set off fire alarms. Fix halberd and charge the last terrified barbarian. He bleeds out waiting on the police to arrive since halberd bayonet wounds are impossible to stitch up. Just as the Song dynasty intended.
I would feel like the production requirements for such a period of firearms would also make it a little easier - as you wont be seeing the same chamber pressures (etc)
The Italians have the reproduction single action & lever action market pretty much covered. Those guns are probably a lot easier to import due to the fact they are not semiauto and they appeal more to a wider audience.
And there's a market for those guns because of Cowboy Action Shooting. There isn't the same formalized sport driving sales of more modern reproductions.
@@AndrewAMartin That is true..but interestingly Uberti, Pietta etc were making those guns BEFORE CAS became a thing... Of course they must have thought it was Christmas when THAT game started to grow!!
Spaghetti Western films did for the Italians what cowboy TV shows did for Colt and Ruger. They helped gin up a mass market for Old West style guns among casual gun owners (not just cognoscenti). Same reason retro ARs and M1 carbine repros are still with us.
@@WanlaceYates I suspect you are spot on there!!! I got in to CAS early on here in Australia... I don't shoot it much any more - IPSC has taken over - but yes, I have owned/still do own quite a number of Uberti and Ruger products!
This is a visit to the Pietta factory. ua-cam.com/video/qdnbNJKJ9ZE/v-deo.html As you can see, they use the same tooling to make their repro revolvers and their modern line of semiauto rifles and shotguns. They work in batches. "today revolvers, tomorrow semiauto rifles". It's obvious that those machines can make anything in between. A Fyodorov Avtomat like a M1 Carbine. They only need the right imput. They can make them BETTER actually. With more consistent tolerances than the originals EVER had. So why they don't do it? Because, while manufacturing is not really a problem, designing is. Manual repeaters (revolvers, lever actions...) solve a lot of problems, because timing is decided and force is applied by the shooter. In a semiauto/auto weapon there are a lot of bits that have to work togheter for the weapon to work. Much of those old designs required handfitting, because the admitted tolerances were so that, in a batch of supposedly identical parts, the right ones had to be chosen and coupled for the weapon to work. Worse, there was the "cascade matching" problem. When you took, IE, three parts that matched toghether, because they were all at one end of the tolerance scale, and then there was no fourth part that matched with them, because it should have been beyond the scale. It was a so common issue that, for the Winchester .224 prototype (the competitor of the AR15 in the CONARC competition) Winchester explicitly stated that they designed their rifle so that it couldn't happen. And we were in the late '50s. It was still a severe problem for the M60 MG. Modern CNC machines can't work like that. so the modern designer has to come out with his own completely different, set of admitted tolerances. Not to say that steel of the original composition is often unobtanium. The REAL problem is that most of those designs were not that great to begin with. Even the most successful ones, (IE, the M1 Carbine, to say one) were good FOR THEIR TIME. But the eventual purchaser of a modern repro would expect form it MODERN reliability and durability, otherwise "This is shit! The manufcturer scammed me!". For the designer of the repro, it's like a nightmare. To him is like designing a completely new weapon, with the adjunctive constraint that he can't choose the solutions he KNOWS will work flawlessly. He has to keep it consistent with original solutions that he know work "so-so". That's why modern repros, even when existing, mostly dont' have part interchangeability with the originals.
I remember in the late 70’s, I saw a a catalogue from a Class 3 dealer in Arizona who had a couple of Stg 44’s for sale for $750. I’m not kidding. I was tempted but you couldn’t get 8mm Kurtz at the time so I bought an MG-34 for $1500. Those were the days.
The obvious exception of course being the Colt SAA. Mechanically simple enough, and iconic enough that many people don't even care if it is chambered in a different caliber, and lots of companies sell reproduction/clones of it.
PSA has recreated the Chinese "spiker" AK. I'm not a huge fan of AKs, but it seems to me that they can't keep them in stock. Anyway, I think close recreations of classic guns in modern calibers with modern mags are a neat idea. I'm glad PSA is doing it!
I know it won't happen, and i'd probably be the only one to buy it, but i'd like to see atleast some kind of attempt at a modern Mars or Lahti pistol. The Mars, cuz it's big caliber and it's basically a Deagle without the ugly looks, the Lahti, cuz it's just a nice gun. Or hell, if someone started making working reproductions of Chinese Mystery Pistols, that'd be something i'd be interested in. But yeah, not everyone wants a CB-1913M5 reproduction, and that's fair.
@@ridiculousrandy1401 I don't like most pistols with Slides, the original M1911 is an exception but only if it's the original 1911 model, not the 1911A1, the original one.
I really like where Ian went with the Federov rifle reproduction. I'd say why not try to reproduce some of the other rifles of that WW1 era, such as the Mondragon or French RSC rifle. Then again, even new manufacturing is very difficult to do and there has to be a profit in order to make things viable in a business mindset. G43s and SVTs would also be really cool options for reproduction.
I wonder if making a reliable chauchat is possible, the gun was supposed to be simple and cheap, so I guess it wouldn't be too hard to bulid it. I think the biggest issue with the gun is the magazine and the ammunition
Molot in Russia makes 91/30 rifles, SVT rifles, SKS rifles and several other rifles. They’re cheap as shit too, just not importable because current situations and the import ban we had in the 90’s.
Maybe if you made and sold them in bursts you could see profit. Instead of full scale production. Like some companies release certain firearms for a while then discontinue. I might be wrong. Just a thought.
One thing I think gets overlooked is it is probably a lot easier to make reproductions of popular designs like the M-16, Colt 1911 or Winchester 1894 because you don't have to educate the customer on why it is cool or worry about availability of accessories and parts. I think a FAMAS G2 would be awesome, but that is because I watched Ian use a FAMAS in Desert Brutality.
The whitney wolverine reproductions were a good example of going so far from the original no one wanted them. I’d love an original or one that looks like one. That 50’s scifi look.
That, or the new FN "Faux-power". Not original enough to speak to enthusiasts (no parts compatibility, not even magazines), but not modernized enough for the mainstream market either (steel frame, no optics or accessory mounting). On top of that the pictures I've seen of them have been horribly for together, major misalignments and whatnot. I mean, what were they thinking.
@@Tunkkis almost like the new browning a5’s. The old ones were loved. They were just heavy and got too expensive to make. But 20 years later there was still do much if a demand browning(fn) brought them back modernized them and actually made a good gun in itself. But it doesn’t give the same feeling as shooting an original. Fn also owns winchester and at least brought the lever guns the right way. The 1866,1873 and 1894 are good enough. Just the 1886 and I believe the 1895 have those damn tang safeties.
@@LilPistachiofr they made a whitney wolverine but they were black, had shorter barrels that were threaded or had comps, had optics rail etc. completely took away from the lines of the gun. No one bought them and they malfunctioned like crazy.
I hope that if the STG 44 reproduction goes on the market later this year as planned by PSA, Ian will acquire a test and evaluation model and put a bunch of rounds thru it in front of the camera so the rest of us can see first-hand if it is reliable enough to spend the 2000.00 or more it will cost to buy one.
Honestly if they could get the price down to the 750-1000 dollar range they would have a hot seller. I really hope that it can get separated from the history of the rifle and can be tacticooled without spoiling the lines of the gun.
I remember once a discussion about the production of the Vis (Radom) pistol in its original form. The factory produced something, but purists complained that the production technology was already different. Others answered them: "Come on, today no one makes weapons with pre-war methods, because technology has advanced."
Yeah the 3d printing community is probably the best bet for some of the reproduction firearms, theres projects for a famas, Aug, p90, g36, cetme c, tommy gun, mp40, and probably more down the line as the technology grows and more people get into it
@@TheFredmac have one for a couple years. But what sucks is finding parts for it, my rear sight fell off last year. Can't find any solutions for this problem
My initial thought when I saw the title was the video would go like this. Intro* Ian* "they're expensive and don't sell" Outro for the remaining video time with some sort of sad music*
The other issue that Ian did not mention is that to make a reliable weapon you need the Technical Data Package that specifies the tolerances of each part, type of steel, hardness, etc. You can’t get this but just putting calibers to a few old examples.
The TDP is not enough if the original materials are not available. Also some production techniques require expensive custom machines that only make sense in very high production operations. This was mentioned in one of the PSA STG44 videos. Even so, there was still a lot of hand fitting of older weapons. It was also not uncommon on the production lines to need to try several individual parts combinations to get one that worked well in a particular firearm.
@@jfess1911 We have categorically better production materials and processes now, it’s cheap to overshoot materials qualities requirements. It’s not that difficult to CNC machine pretty much any shape and tolerance. The question is how many do you have to make for testing before you find reliable working tolerance specifications. And even then, how many parts will interchange in the originals with their different details (even if you exactly reproduced the one template original…).
@@Georgewilliamherbert I have worked in factories with both modern and old, even WWII-era equipment (ACME, Davenport and South Bend screw machines). Using a CNC to produce numerous small parts is actually quite slow and expensive compared to dedicated or custom-built but very specialized machines optimized to produce specific parts. Even being able to forge or cold/hot-form parts to near-net shape dramatically reduces machining time and cost at scale. To take advantage of this equipment, though, you need to produce hundreds if not thousands of each part per day. Even though Hill and Mac actually had the TDP for the STG44, it took years to make it reliable. In one of their recent videos they flat out stated that the TDP was not enough and that they had great difficulty replicating the materials and mass production methods used in WWII. In the end, they gave up on some parts and, for example, decided to buy the entire trigger pack from H&K because they could not build it themselves at anywhere the near the same cost.
@@jfess1911 What you hot or cold forge, what you extrude or cast (sand, investment, lost foam, hot die etc) or additively manufacture all is going to depend on materials and volume and materials cost and … yeah. Dedicated machines are great if you’re feeding hundreds to tens of thousands of parts a day through. An ex’es father built and maintained tooling at the Corvette motor factory. Some parts at that volume with dedicated machines, others got CNCed or batch forged intermittently or … all sorts of solutions. CNC means the least tool development in your delivery timelines and cost timelines. But they’re rarely the fastest possible way. Just the fastest flexible way you can buy tooling off the shelf…
Actually that would be the most useless part. Much of those old designs required handfitting, because the admitted tolerances were so that, in a batch of supposedly identical parts, the right ones had to be chosen and coupled for the weapon to work. Worse, there was the "cascade matching" problem. When you took, IE, three parts that matched toghether, because they were all at one end of the tolerance scale, and then there was no fourth part that matched with them, because it should have been beyond the scale. It was a so common issue that, for the Winchester .224 prototype (the competitor of the AR15 in the CONARC competition) Winchester explicitly stated that they designed their rifle so that it couldn't happen. And we were in the late '50s. It was still a severe problem for the M60 MG. Modern CNC machines can't work like that. so the modern designer has to come out with his own completely different, set of admitted tolerances. Not to say that steel of the original composition is often unobtanium. The REAL problem is that most of those designs were not that great to begin with. Even the most successful ones, (IE, the M1 Carbine, to say one) were good FOR THEIR TIME. But the eventual purchaser of a modern repro would expect form it MODERN reliability and durability, otherwise "This is shit! The manufcturer scammed me!". For the designer of the repro, it's like a nightmare. To him is like designing a completely new weapon, with the adjunctive constraint that he can't chose the solutions he KNOWS will work flawlessly. He has to keep it consistent with original solutions that he know work "so-so". That's why modern repros mostly dont' have part interchangeability with the originals.
MAT-49's Reproductions are deseperately needed, my grandfather had one in Algeria. Such a great and reliable fireram, it deserves to be available again.
It'd have to be an SBR here in America, or considered a pistol if the stock's welded in like Pioneer Arms' PPS43C, or no stock to bubba with a stabilizing brace. Otherwise the barrel would have to be extended like the MAT 49-54
@@johntavish8750 Apparemment c'est un peu grâce à lui que l'oranais est resté plus tranquille que le reste de l'Algérie. Cette guerre a été un beau bor/del (je sais pas si yt accepte le mot) mais il a pu faire son travail.
Goddamn man, thought I'd see your channel pop up in Forgotten weapons at some point. Love your content, would love to talk about a Civil defence bunker I've had a look around in SE London
There's a UK dealer working up production loading of 7mm Mk1Z AKA .280/30 British. If you're going to pay an arm and a dick for a one-off reproduction of a rifle nobody has made in 70 years, might as well go the whole hog! 🤣
Stamping is a problen with low production number items. The dies are extremly expensive and require a lot of knowldedge to manufacture and operate. The big benefit of stamping, the realy cheap unit cost, only applies when large numbers are made witch is unlikley for reproductions. In RnD I have seen people mill pieces out of solid blocks that resemble stampings.
@@lukahierl9857 cnc milling as well as 3d printing is the way on reprodution. Rd would be negligible on these. Think along the lines of 10-22 and stemple clones. A gun in a costume
I think the Sturmgewehr is a good option to do, just because tons of people want one that aren’t gun collectors, cuz so many of us have used them in games (Battlefield, Wolfenstein, etc). I certainly want one and I’m not a “collector”.
You nailed its pronunciation, my uncle had one with all the gadgets including the lights that track the road. The suspension was a pain in the backside but it sat well on the road, I had a BX years later and it was way ahead of the times, to be honest, to be honest, all Citron cars were pretty advanced but sadly did not hold their value well over here. The sporty bx was a brilliant car to drive. The SM was probably the best as it had the Maserati engine. They all were pretty cutting-edge cars but as I said at the beginning the suspension was troublesome, oh one of the models could drive on 3 wheels, I can't remember what one of them was but I remember a video on it. I believe they were the most complex simple cars made. Thanks for bringing back the memories, loved this show. The tip I will give you is to check all the manufacturers who were in partnership with Citroën back then and also check larger shareholders as you may find that they were also sharing components if the shareholder was also a car manufacturer. Kind of the way Renault is making engines for the Mercedes A class which I'm unsure if it is sold in America. All the best from Scotland.
I think one reproduction that would be a hit on the market would be an M1 Garand. Mike from NodakSpud/PSA said that when they purchased H&R, they also received the TDP for the M1 Garand and digitized them for production. An M1 from the CMP would have greater historical value, but a new production M1 that I don't have to worry about trashing would be awesome too. Plus, none of the ranges around me are with the CMP, and the clubs that are with them are JROTC or high school clubs.
The M1 makes sense. That action is still in production with current M1s and the Mini-14. I'd also love a CNC'd aluminum-receiver BAR that would be legal in pretty much every state lol
Springfield Armory, Inc. already did that, and people bitched about the cast receivers and the price and the non-GI parts etc. And while the CMP continue to sell real ones (which wont go on forever) they can continue to get the ones they really wanted.
@@MkVII Mike has said they’ll be using forged receivers. Personally I don’t care about GI parts on a repro, I’d rather have new production parts that I don’t have to worry about. I don’t care for Springfield armory anyways.
It's one of those that probably will never be made. First, it's quite complicate, second, Fedorov himself admitted it had reliability issues. But the purchaser of a modern repro would want MODERN reliability (not even 1917 reliability) from it. He wouldn't accept "it seldomly work because the originals were like that too". For the designer of the repro, it's like a nightmare. To him is like designing a completely new weapon, with the adjunctive constraint that he can't choose the solutions he KNOWS will work flawlessly. He has to keep it consistent with original solutions that he knows work "so-so".
@@soylentgreen7074 That sounds like the most ambitious bubba yet. And yet I think it's possible with a Fedorov-like stock and handguard kit, though the SKS sights will probably have to remain. It would still be a cool novelty, like a Ruger 10/22 M1 carbine
As for the old calibre thing, don't forget that adapting an older gun to a more common cartridge occasionally sacrifices reliability. Walther PPK in 380, versus the original 7.65mm, is a good example. My only gripe is the over-abundance of Sporter Mausers and the absence of K98 clones.
I don't know that I would consider the PPK as a good example. Walther began offering the .380 version of the PP in 1931, 2 years after the release of the original. The same was true of the PPK 9 Kurz version being released in 33 a year and a half after the PPKs release in 7.65 in late 31. That's not an older design adaptation time wise, nor was it an adaptation In favor of, as both chamberings were produced concurrently. The PPKs "380" problem could very well have been a "Ammunition" problem more than a design issue. I own a PPK in both calibers. The 7.65 will eat anything it's fed. The .380 is a bit pickier about its fodder. Cheap .380 ammo gives it hiccups (ComBloc is the worst). Better .380 ammo, and it feeds and runs as reliably as its littler older brother. The PPK Super in 9 X 18 Ultra, performed well according to reports, the decision by European LE to go to 9 X 19 Parabellum killed the Super and 9mm Ultra both.
I think the real issue is companies don't like to risk guaranteed profits spending money on non-guaranteed profits. But as a business owner I've found you need to take risks. The TFBTV Showtime channel covered the STG-44 from PSA and it is their most watched video, EVER in 3 years of posting. So I think there's certainly enough interest to justify the tooling, companies simply don't want to risk it. Which I can understand to a degree, but then you get a very static industry
@@hueco5002 I'll be a heretic here, and possibly upset a few people. The gun "community" really isn't and gunTuber viewers with few exceptions are not equipped to buy much more than budget guns. In pure dollars and cents, better not base your projected gross revenue based upon the number of views. That would go for bicycles, tents, widgets, guns, etc.
@user-ko7ry1dp4d solid points. i have no intentions of buying an stg44. i was interested in seeing a breakdown of the reproduction and what changes were made to make it viable bla bla.... i honestly do hope it is successful though so they'll branch off into other historic firearms. I'd buy/order a federav literally the second i saw it if it was made in a caliber i could actually get.
As an engineer I'd like to point out that a single injection mold, just the part without the engineering costs, is about $36000 USD. These are precisely milled massive chunks of steel that need to also have spouts for excess and to be designed around the constraints of fluid mechanics for the flowing plastic. Even a mold for a press to form polymer parts is going to end up costing a ton due to how long it has to hold up to a metric fuck ton of heating and cooling cycles which means a simple looking part still will cost a lot. In short manufacturing only ends up being profitable once you got a certain scale of production that can off set those start up costs. Also I'd love a FAMAS repro or Federalis repro (make it in 5.56 or 7.62x39 and take ar or so mags).
The FAMAS might actually be more viable than at first glance. The rise of multi-jet fusion 3D printing giving anisotropic material qualities means you could create a version one using MJF printed polymer parts (designed for eventual injection molding) and then go forward with acquiring the molds only if the project proves popular enough to justify the expense.
I think one added point- older designs also tend to have some… less than ideal design decisions, from a modern perspective. And TBH, there’s a reason that many of them weren’t selling well enough to maintain production in the first place. So if you’re going to make one, do you keep these things that people will hate, for sake of authenticity? Or do you jettison them to try and make the product more appealing to modern consumers? The Hi-Power is an interesting example of this, with several companies (FN, Springfield, and Girsan/EAA) recently each demonstrating different takes on how to approach doing one (FN going much more modern and really just keeping the aesthetic, Springfield staying mostly traditional, and Girsan kind of splitting the difference). And for a reproduction to sell well enough to be financially viable, you (generally) need to find a way it can operate in one of the other main uses people want for firearms. In the general market that means (in order) home/self defense, hunting, or competition. Range toys are just straight up HARD to sell currently, and I’d imagine because there’s less consensus in that segment of the market on what consumers want. You ask a hundred random gun owners what they’d want in a home defense rifle, you’re probably gonna have some pretty identifiable trends (calibers, features, price point, etc) that people want. But you ask a hundred gun owners what gun they’d love for the range or just for fun, you’re probably gonna have close to a hundred different answers. Good luck appealing to enough people to turn a profit.
I'm a big fan of inspired designs as opposed to exact remakes, which gives you license to use generic calibers & magazines while focusing on capturing whatever is special about the original mechanism or appearance
One thing I'd like Ian to discuss is that PSA isn't just teaming up with HMG for their StG-44 project, but that it's the first an what I've read is an entire line of reproduction firearms, called their Battlefield lineup. As far as I know, it's just the StG-44 for now, but I've heard that they've implied there might be a Garand reproduction in the future.
Coming from the guitar world first and the gun world later I think the major problem is that most people either want the best cool new thing or surplus antiques. Where in the guitar world people will buy a 59' reproduction Les Paul to be like Jimmy Page, I don't think there's as much of a market for that kind of thing in the gun world. Compound this problem with the amount of capital that's required to set up the initial tooling it's just not economically viable. Great video as always Ian!
I think another big thing is how different guitar (and more broader wood) manufacturing operates a fair bit differently than metal goods manufacturing in term of the necessary production steps and tools, seeing how luthiers still happily exist as a trade.
No one was making a reproduction of medieval 15c cannons so me and my friends have made 4 of them now we have done shows as far as Sweden and France ! Not bad considering the difficulty of getting the appropriate licenses that are very hard to get in the UK.
Here in the US, you don't need licenses and shit for a cannon. You can go a buy one or make it yourself and, as long as it's black powder, won't get in trouble with the feds.
It feels weird that some humans no different than me on this same space rock require licenses to own something I can buy, make, or have made as if it was a piece of furniture. It's pretty awesome though 👌 I really want a cannon of reasonable size that I can move around on my own. I'm thinking of making one that fires racketball size lead round balls. People abroad mostly think Americans can go pick up a gun whenever at the local grocery, and it's amusing to thin on. But for antiques, black powder, and a few other niche items, you can actually very literally just purchase online and have shipped to your house. 🤣 the whole black powder and antiques not being considered guns is honestly strange, being that various states have vastly different laws for firearms.
If you’re a collector, and you have paid a premium for an original gun. Sure you might take it to the range a couple of times a year. But you, probably would not want to wear out, that prized item. A reproduction would be a good stand-in for practice and weapon proficiency.
@@RealJohnnyDingo: If you are interested in learning how to field strip, shoot, and maintain a valuable antique firearm. You might want to practice on a cheaper reproduction, so as not potentially damage a historically significant antique and degrade its value.
Your market for the production is still the same as the market for the already niche collector's item and a collector would not buy one of each over spending that on a different one for the collection
@@KaitouKaiju look at black powder civil war revolvers - if you could afford an original these days it would not be a daily shooter, but more likely a museum piece. the repros are very popular because they're cheap, fun to shoot, and still have some historical appeal because they are very much like the original articles. they are thoroughly obsolete so you wouldn't equip your army with such weapons, but it's still fun and dare I say educational to shoot one.
I have a suggestion. A 'generic' ww1/ww2 battle rifle. Customer buys a basic rifle 'innards / mechanism in either (5.56, 7.62x39 or 300blackout) and then you choose a furniture 'kit' which includes wood stocks, sights, fittings in the style you want:- SMLE (including No4 mark1), K98, Mosin Nagant M42, Mannlicher Carcano etc. These would not be clones, but modern rifle kits, 'in the style of...' in a selection of modern, ready available calibers. You could offer a modest selection of stocks, laminated woods and even unfinished stocks. However the mechanisms would be modern bolt-action mechanisms. Just a thought.
My first gun i ever bought was a GSG/ATI STG-44 chambered in .22LR, it looks great but as i found out when i called for a replacement part, it wasn't meant to be shot, small batch production alongside their MP40s that were meant to stay in the box for display. Despite all that it was a fun little pinker even though it's been sitting for the last couple of years in need of a bolt repair.
Another point on purism - the purists are also the ones more likely to pay high prices, since they are typically the most passionate about the gun. So, if you move away from a purist-oriented reproduction, you'll also have to lower the price point in order for it to actually sell.
And the argument, as Ian says, is that making it with more "modern" features allows that price to come down, so it's still a viable choice of picking authentic versus convenience.
The weapon is being produced in several calibers. The "purist" can have his authentic version. I would like one that handles 7.62x39/AK mags. Another would want 5.56/300 BO with AR mags. win, Win, WIN!
A good example is Fulton Armory with their reproduction M1 Garands, it’s cheaper to buy a real one if you can get a deal than buy a new production, although if I’d been hill and Mac I probably would’ve tried partnering with a magazine manufacturer like Magpul for Mecgar to produce the STG 44 mags
It would be a highly lopsided deal to partner with a mag company. As Ian alluded to, the mag takes up most of the development time and a prospective buyer is going to buy, what, less than a dozen mags? While expecting those mags to be affordable?
@@eddietat95 it’s gonna be way easier for a magazine company to replicate a mag then say hill and Mac, because all magazine companies do is make magazines and they have usually decades of experience doing it
@@Scott079 It quickly becomes a "chicken and egg" scenario. Unless the firearm manufacturer coughs up all of the money for production up front, the magazine manufacturer will insist that there is a proven demand for them. The firearm manufacturer needs the magazines to sell the gun in the first place. Getting a magazine to work in a particular firearm is not as simple as many think. Getting a mag to work consistently with every variation of min-max tolerance of both the firearm and the magazine (+ ammo variation) is not a "magazine only" issue.
@@dancortes3062 only scenario I can see is wanting one that runs .308 reliably instead of 30-06. I have photographs of my grandfather using a wartime expedient cut-down of an M1, so I went to fulton to create a replica (the tanker was very close) that won't beat itself to death and eats .308 as it's more readily available.
Ian, one of the potential markets you didn't mention are a special niche. That is for WW2 reenactors where appearance is the most important feature. It matters not whether they shoot projectiles is not an issue, as a matter of fact, not shooting a projectile makes them safer for reenactment. So a simple blank/cap firing mechanism, hidden under a realistic outer shell would be a very desirable "toy" that would assist a reenactor to gain a more capable and desirable prop with better performance in that role than being stuck with a lower performance rifle such as a K98k (which prices are rising rapidly) or a Garand, which is also rising quickly. Just an idea, as I was in that position for several years as a reenactor of both sides. Further, if the replica was a noise only replica, then local laws, such as in Washington State, prohibiting full auto weapons, would no longer present a difficulty.
The best argument for making reproduction firearms is that it allows more people to experience shooting them. Not many people are able to buy originals, and even fewer people are willing to shoot their historic firearms. The main place where reproductions have done well is in black powder firearms and guns of the old west. There are still many fans of those eras, and there are plenty of shooting competitions built around those guns. I would love to see a company specialize in making reproductions of firearms from every era. From the 1600s through the 1970s. They could make smaller runs and presell them to see what is truly in demand. Then, make additional runs of the most popular firearms. Similar to how high-end movie prop reproductions and models are done. If it is in an obscure caliber, then sell it with 200 rounds as the standard option and have options for it to come with 500 or 1000 rounds. Also sell it with a minimum of 4 magazines if it has detachable magazines.
The de lisle commando carbine would seem like a good gun to reproduce: it is useful but also a colectible, it uses .45 acp and it uses m1911 magazines,seems pretty cheap to make
A New Zealand guy makes them. It has a longer barrel than the original to keep the overall length over 750mm. If it’s shorter than that it’s a pistol, which is much more tightly regulated here. I’ve fired one, it is amazingly quiet. The slap of the round on steel target is louder than the firing signature
I think Ian and Karl did interview HMG years ago about the StG44, before the project stalled. It left a bad taste that people paid up front for a gun that might never be produced. I hope it does sell well. If it does come out , I bet Ian would do a video on it.
This is one of the reasons everybody used to run around with SKSes and revolvers in DayZ, the zombie video game - magazines spawned separately, so you often ended up with an AK that had no magazine, or a bunch of random magazines but no gun.
@@AshleyPomeroy Hey your comment got me thinking....We should ask Lan..."How come gun manufacturers along with parts manufacturers doesn't make certain video game guns? The Samurai Edges are a great example".
What most people don't realize that gun manufacturers are not in the business to make guns! They are in the business to make money, and happen to have the talent to make guns. It would be nice if their only interest was to make guns, costs be damned, but that's not how the world works. Ian did a very good job of explaining why more reproduction guns are not available.
Thanks for restating this Ian. From comments I see on this channel and others, I would say that there is reason to repost this video every six months to a year. Even in the comments on this video there seem to be folks that immediately after just watching the video are making statements as if they never saw the video and are living in some fantasy land of gun reproduction dreams.
Great story Ian. I did not realize the “Magazines” were a big issue to reproduce. Then I thought of what a production line might really look like. There would have be a lot of money invested.If you get an order for something like 10,000 guns to be reproduced I could see building a factory just to make magazines. Not in California.🤔
I'm of the opinion that quite a few of the early, single shot breach loaders (skip all the magazine headaches) could be reproduced quite cheaply with modern CNC machining. Of course, even if you could get the price down to a few hundred bucks, the problem is that there's very little market interest in them. And also originals of quite a few of them survive in surprising numbers.
I used to think "Oh that'd be cool to have" but Ian's explained enough and looking at reproduction prices and varying quality that I'm happy with the guns I have and if there's something I really want to keep? Well, I'll save up for an original if it's available. Quite a few guns, after Ian did a video was enough for me. He finished my bucket list a year ago via videos. :)
Kodiak defense out of Canada is planning on selling full reproduction k98 in 8mm and 308 and they’ve gone out of their way to say they aren’t gonna cost a gazillion dollars
There is the big market of reproduction handguns. Someone mentioned the Italian BP revolvers already but that is far from it. The Colt SAA is available as a reproduction as is some semi auto they introduced a few decades later. But all those guns were huge commercial success in their own time already.
My personal take is that initially interest in old military surplus was down to two kinds of buyers; people who bought surplus guns because they were cheaper and more widely available, and those enthusiasts who were collectors. Of course surplus isn't cheap anymore a 50 dollar Mosin is now going for like 500 dollars. The only people who would be interested in that are those historical collectors or people with similar interests. As much as I'd love to own an authentic M1 Garand or SVT there is no way I'm dropping over a grand on a gun that is 80 years old. So those who would be interested enough in a historical recreation are a niche market. Not when everyone wants a tacticool AR/M4 variant. Watched the video, and I see Ian said a lot of those same points.
I'm like Ian and usually have interest in these kind guns just to play with. Had the MSAR 5.56 and that kind of fizzled. Have an AUG now and am happy. Picked up the Brownell's Ar-10 and absolutely love it. I have the lightweight one and put on the brown furniture and prong FH. The stock front sight was too low so I had a gunsmith drill and tap the sight post for an AR threaded post to make it shootable. Had the Brownell's 601 and my brother talked me out of that one. I never shot it, but the barrel pin slot in the receiver was out of spec and had to be fixed. But the biggie for me was getting on the HMG list back in November of 2015 for the STG and going through the ringer with that one. So that didn't happen and I was refunded but I'm glad that PSA can back the project now. Maybe they can get them out and see them actually work in the wild.
34 years in manufacturing here. Few outside the industry truly understand the expenditures involved for something like this. They see CNC videos on youtube and equate it to replicator levels of magic. Not so. Not at all.
I work in the firearm manufacturing industry. We just spent $8 million for a new automation cell just to make 1 critical component for a gun that isn't even out yet. I run Tsugami Swiss lathes. Just for the machine to sit idle costs $7/hour in electricity. Close to $40/hour when running. We have 7 Tsugami's. One of the custom form drills I use to make the firing pin hole in the bolts is close to $400. We run them until they break. My team lead loaded in the carbide hammers wrong into the hammer forge one night and crash them. $40K turned to dust in 1/2 second. If you scrap a barrel on finish turn its $200 gone. The costs are insane. And then there is an 11% excise tax for every firearm we make. I don't know how we ever make money but we make a lot of it somehow.
A friend had a cottage business called Diva Arms. She took HK 93s and dressed them up to look like a Stg44. Reenactors were the primary market. If PSA does a run better snatch one quick. 300 blk or 7.62x39 might be a good option.
I gave up on my dream of collecting historic firearms because I can’t afford it, and likely never will be able to at this rate. I’d be happy to settle for a repro, it would be less stressful trying to determine if the gun is matching, functional, etc….but still too prohibitively expensive.
I keep reading about 3D printed molds for small batch parts being very cost effective. Might eventually help with reproduction firearm polymer parts, given their limited runs. FAMAS lower receiver is pretty big, though, which won't help.
There are different polymer technologies. Injection moulding is expensive to gear up but cheap on the long run. Castable resins, when properly cured, can have superior strength with a lower cost of entry, given 3D printing. Sure, the internals won't necessarily match the injection moulded ones, but how often do they need to? Knowing the market is important for any commercial venture. If you're doing it for the love, then please yourself.
What Ian is saying about reproductions is 100% spot on. There are dozens of examples of reproduction firearms that have done well, but for every 1, you have several dozen that don't. I was at a gun shop today, and there was a good spread of guns, and I was talking with someone looking to buy their own gun. The guy behind the counter was more a rifle guy, so I kinda stepped in to help with information. The guy picked up a dagger and a g19 that it was based on, and would rather have the original is you may. He didnt want a knock off. We moved onto Berettas, he liked the 92fs and I recommended he look at the girsan regard. Again, he said he would rather spend the extra $300 and get the original gun than a Turkish Knockoff. We ended at the 1911 cabinet, he picked up a Colt and a RIA and again, he would rather spend a few hundred more for a better built version of the same gun, and he's not wrong. I have a lot of the cheaper guns, and I can admit that the more expensive guns have better appeal, but I get on just fine with my cheaper guns.
The dimension that Ian didn't mention is the legality of making them. I suspect that a reproduction of any of the SMGs from WWII would be insanely popular in just about any caliber, and most of them would be ridiculously simple to manufacture, but there is just no legal space to produce them in their original automatic form.
That and they have to have obnoxiously long 16” barrels. And stamping isn’t cheap and common anymore. Everyone moved in to cnc machines. So you’d have to do the r&d in stamping and all that. Look how simple mp5’s are. Stamped and welded but cost a shit ton. The bolt and barrel are quality.
@@soylentgreen7074 Yep, no one wants a cool SMG with an ungainly, disproportionately long barrel. Hell, the only reason I built my full-size Uzi is because I could put a fake suppressor over the 16 barrel.
there is also one notable exception: law In Poland, any not self contained cartridge gun made before 1855 and replicas (so we're talking like cap and ball stuff, flintlock, matchlock, wheellock, but mostly cap and ball revolvers, shotguns and rifled muskets, note that dreyse or chasspot are self contained cartridge guns, as well as leffachoux style gun) are COMPLETELY unregulated, i mean, you just have to be over 18 years old. No background checks or anything. Compared to that, for any regular gun, you have to go through the process of getting proper permits and all that. Because of that thing, there is really big market for 1851 Navys, 1858 New model armys and 1860 Armys, as they are effectively cheap (1/3rd cost of regular gun permit) and easy way of getting a firearm here. And thanks to that, Pietta and Uberti are making some really not bad money
At 11:30, we get to the real purpose of the video...😎 What was frustrating for me has been the lack of M16A1 clone guns and parts. Even before Brownell's retro series, the NoDak Spud parts were hard to come by, then I missed the Brownell's offering due to personal finances. When I finally grab a PSA gun, my AR itch may be well and truly scratched; call me a fudd but the modern AR iterations don't impress me at all. So much sameness...
Yeah covid really killed the retro stuff, price wise and availability wise. Is see 601, A1, A2 uppers going for 1k-2k !!!! Glad i got mine when they were $100. Sucks you missed out on the brownells items.
Repro PO8 Lugers would be great, they would have to cost as much as a mid level 1911 to get them right, but if they made them to handle modern 9mm I think it would do very well
Very well said sir. It’s hard to believe that we now have to discuss the issue of not finding ammunition in every caliber made. This is nothing more than a to slowly numb people to the realization that very soon we won’t be able to have any caliber of ammo. Thank you Ian for your always accurate insight.
Some people yes. I’ve been waiting for a certain reproduction to come out in the caliber I have had preordered for 3 years. I got tired of waiting and bought it in the only caliber its available in for now. If they ever come out with the one I preordered I’ll sell the current one.
What I learned from this video is that the most successful reproduction guns are the ones based off those from the earliest days of firearms (ex: hangonne and matchlock), to those of the 19th century (ex: muskets, lever action rifles, revolvers, etc.). They are easier to produce compared to 20th century automatics, and as a result a number of companies such as Cimarron to Uberti have become successful businesses based on these repros. What do you think, Ian?
True about 20th Century automatics, especially if they're German. The German autos tend to be over engineered. Let's face it, if the STG-44 was THAT great the Russians would have had no problem with stealing the design and making it themselves. They liked the concept but not the gun so they came up with the AK-47. MUCH better than the Sturmgewehr!
Graduate level knowledge. Thank you. In many conversations with my father, over decades, he would wonder why modern car companies didn't make reproductions of iconic and beautiful cars from the past. With better engines, airbags, etc. Ian nailed it. It is vanity to make something which costs more than it can recoup in the market. My dad and I may buy one, but the market is very small. People with taste, and money.... at the same time?!?? We are all passionate about engineering and history, but the mass market....... not so much.
I think part of the reason someone would get a reproduction is they don't want to put wear and tear on an original, but they want to shoot it regularly with the original experience.
@matthewswan9419 probably deer mostly. I'm not saying that's what I'm gonna do for sure, but it would be neat. Kill two birds with one stone. A cool piece of history that is also functional.
I can recommend the replications of Sportsysteme Dittrich from Germany. They are working with the original plans and actually have several original models for comparison/QA. The replicate the StG44, the MP38 and most importantly the FG42. All with an impressive build quality.
Brownells really messed up not continuing their retro models. I guess they could always tool back up, but it seems as if PSA has picked up the slack in the meantime (for a better price).
@@stoptrackingourdata8158 Brownells for their forgings from Nodak Spud from what I understand and Nodak stopped supplying them with those once PSA bought them.
@@TylerHulan I'll be happy to give my money to either company as long as I don't have to gather the parts myself. I turned one of Brownells AR Proto stripped upper/lower packages into a pretty cool little .22 with CMMG parts. It's not authentic to any previous AR models, but I think it's neat; and it was easy to build. No headspacing necessary.
@@TylerHulan Sounds dope! CMMG is another company who needs to get it together though. I used their .22lr AR dedicated barrel and bolt kit (different than the conversion kit) on my build that they no longer manufacture. They need to bring it back. Makes it easy to build your own dedicated .22lr upper which I did with another one of their kits that I found sans front sight post. CMMG used to make two versions; one with a fsp and one without. That way you could have a retro looking .22lr AR or a more modern version. I used the version with the barrel that had the front sight post on the BRN Proto since that had carry handle irons, and used the other style on a more modern .22lr upper with a free float barrel and modern optic.
Perfect candidate: TRW LMR -5.56x45 -STANAG mags -simple tubular construction -sexy -m60 trigger group easily replaced with a polymer assembly using an ar lpk
Just a thought. Perhaps forgotten weapons could do an interview with Ruger. And they could go into some detail about what has taken, to produce that magnificent Marlin lever gun.
If you want one... make your own in 30-06 or maybe even in 300 Winchester Magnum and rework the trigger from double action to single action because a fifteen pound trigger pull is no good.
@@Henrydbunny that's a simple direct blowback PCC badly cosplaying as an FG42. By that definition, a Ruger 10/22 in a SG2000 conversion kit is a "reproduction" WA2000.
I think the biggest market of reproduction guns are the muzzle loaders and cowboy action (19th century American) guns, single shots and lever action rifles and single action revolvers. Italian companies did a great job about these categories (Pedersoli, Uberti, Pietta, etc). Also these are much less headache as no separate magazines.
Umberti does a great job with the colt SSA because they bought colts tooling if you buy a SSA from colt today they assemble it from parts they get from Umberti
People don't realize that most weapons sold are actually used for practical reasons. Even if you have the money and want to buy a rifle for your house, are you going to buy an StG because "it's cool", or are you going to buy a modern rifle with good ergonomics and proven design? Just because you want to shoot an old gun, that does not mean you see value in buying it. The only logical market for these guns, outside of collectors, would be ranges that could offer these guns as a novelty.
*looks at bubba'd nagant propped in corner* Logic? I haven't heard that name in years... I too will happily purchase a PSA/44 for no reason but to be able to look at a gun in the safe that resembles a STG/44 in the dark. I've always wanted 'real' one, I'll likely never own a 'real one', so I'm happy with the next best thing; I would love to be married to 1996 Alecia Silverstone but that's not gonna happen so I'll settle for the next best thing. We all make sacrifices. Not that I'm thinking about it, I saw a 'tacticool' STG on one of Brandon Herrera's cursed gun images.. perhaps the PSA is the route to go, putting a can on it and maybe a Holosun just to really chap asses at the range.
Sure but a lot of people buy for cool factor too. I have 1 gun for every scenario I can count my life on. Service pistol, CCW pistol, service rifle, trusty shotgun. Every other gun I own is neat factor or for fun. I didn’t get an FNX 45 for any practical reason, I got it because it’s 15 rounds of 45 that’s a fun and soft shooter.
They are as much a novelty as a classic muscle car or antique watches. In reality they kinda suck in many ways compared to pretty much anything made today but there is still something about them that you enjoy spending your money on.
I wonder if rather than a FAMAS Valorise, it might work better to just make a FAMAS G2 and put a scope rail on top of the carry handle? It just seems like a FAMAS without the distinctive carry handle might have less appeal, since that's such a central part of the FAMAS look.
Expensive to manufacture correctly, with a limited market.
"Bring back the ABC 123, I'll buy one!"
"What? There's no way I'm paying that much for an ABC 123!"
Precisely.
Yeah it's always that way with the concept of reproducing old technology now. I've seen it in firearm, car and camera communities all; "I'd so buy a reproduction blah blah blah" but then they don't realise how insanely fast it adds up to manufacture these things especially if they are only being made in small quantities for a niche market. It would take some serious oil baron money to be able to fund those kinds of projects enough just to get off the ground even.
So many people including myself would love to be able to buy a brand new fresh off the line Corolla AE86 or Canon F1 or [insert rare historical firearm], but unfortunately so many people including myself could never afford them in the unlikely event the were being made and sold.
And that is the reason that ABC 123's are now so rare.
@@sheerluckholmes5468 yeah..the Elbonians didn't look after the originals...lol
Yeah, and it's tricky too because everywhere you could... not cut a corner, exactly, but change anything, maybe use an off-the-shelf spring instead of the original (which has the same specs but is a slightly thicker wire tempered slightly differently and which you'd have to make yourself). Well, you split your market even farther: if there were 15,000 people who wanted an ABC 123, maybe there are 10,000 who would want to pay $3k for the new-spring design, but 5,000 people absolutely wouldn't accept that change even if it means they pay $4000. So your market just shrank even more either way you make that call.
I think the real reason Ian answered this question is to let gun manufacturers know that he need famas g2.😂
This is exactly why lol
Springfield's VHS import is as close as we're gonna get.
And he really need and I really want to see he using it on a match.
I’d buy one just to pair with my MK23.
As soon as he started to suggest a gun I new it was going to be french
I'm always amazed by how eloquently Ian can answer a question.
Yep. Excellent firearm business analysis, and he's practically the only person who can speak about the business aspect of firearm topics in this manner.
I am totally in awe about how Ian gets through this without stopping or cutting. There was this one video where he was talking and you could see the reflection of his setup in the glass behind him, and it really just was a camera on a tripod and Ian talking twenty minutes, no stops, no Er Ehm, no nothing. Impressive.
The result of literal years of scripting, speaking whilst recording and researching, as well as his built and demonstrated knowledge of firearms. We're lucky to have this fellow for certain.
You can tell how passionate he is about his research, so great to see tbh
@@AdamOwenBrowning exactly
I feel like a 9x19mm Mauser C96 would be a perfect candidate for this type of reproduction. Some versions could be made exclusively as pistols, others as SBRs. The C96 has already been chambered in 9x19mm with great success, the gun is incredibly iconic the world over, while they are not insanely expensive, they are pricier than the average person would like to pay, especially for a red nine. Further, no magazines to worry about and there are already aftermarket manufacturers of 9mm stripper clips.
I could also see relaunching a limited line in the original 7.63 Mauser, and perhaps adapting a version to take 7.62 Tokarev in time. I would happily pay $1200 for a 9mm C96 that I could take to the range and shoot without a care. I'd feel awful putting many rounds through an original.
I know it sounds weird, but a broom handle repro in some beefy caliber like .44 special would be slick
You feel bad for shooting a C96 too often and then there are some despisable Star Wars fans who make their C96 suffer a fate worse than death. It's sad that not everyone is like you in that regard, historical weapons should really be treated like a piece of history
@@KuK137 The Mausers they destroy are still shooting. They are just not historically accurate anymore. And considering how many guns are produced every day, one less "killjunk" falls into insignificance. Especially considering that the Star Wars blaster would still shoot regular bullets.
@@KuK137 cope harder
You might not believe me Mr. McCollum but Avtomat Fyodorova is one of the reason I got into gunsmithing and successfully finished studying gunsmithing in CZ Uherský Brod. Also part of it is because of you and your older video on Fedorov from 2011 and than 2018. It is my dream to make small reproduction of this gun and reason to keep working as a gunsmith. Btw I was in one of the classes that wisited you while you were filming in CZ UB, It was awesome to talk with you ! J.P.
I truly hope you succeed. I'd love to buy one from you someday.
yooo, I hope we can see "WeaselArmorer Fedorov Avtomat" one day
Fingers crossed! Legendary if not that well known gun, produced in small quantity so yeah, a fresh batch would be quite something.
When it comes to such historical guns I'd love to see reproduced Bergmann MP18 with its original WWI magasine. Again, a historical gun that was produced in small numbers.
An actual gunsmith? Can you make gun parts like a custom handguard for AR-15? Just asking, I don't even own a weapon.
@@Calm_Plier Depends on used material and design of the custom part. You can use these basic materials and their combination: Plastic, wood and various metals.
-There are many methods to shape plastic into a certain things. Injection molding or similar are cost effective for mass production so I would went with 3D printing since it is one of the best ways to make prototype/custom parts.
-Than there is wood. I was thought how to process and shape wood in nice stock, pistol grip or handguard, but it takes much greater amount of time to finish it. There are different kinds of wood that varies in strength and their behaviour, not to mention that good piece of wood is expensive.
-Last one of them is metal (usually some kind of aluminum alloy). The design of the part plays a big role because you need to know what methods to use. Complexity is your greatest enemy. Lots of operation, nearly all of them you could do ,,manually,, on milling machine or lathe. Now, that takes extreme amount time. Everything changes once you have expensive CNC machines and know how to program.
In the end I would personally go with 3D printing and place metal heat shielding inside (like it is done on lots of AR-15 plastic handguards)
I worked in factory and had seen so many failed projects got started because someone felt that "it would sell well enough to justify it". The problem was these people did not know how much sell was actually needed to keep the operation going.
I really wish the stg and fg were reproduced. I'd love to go shooting with those every summer, my two favorite ww2 rifles. Also I wonder why there are no side mag rifles nowadays, it seems like a unique and good idea for some applications
Been there, done that. Technology sector sucks.
@@Sero12245 weapon balance
@@tomhenry897 don't forget the marketing and legal staff as well as the risk of the ATF declaring your product illegal after all that expense.
@@Sero12245 Huge fan of the STG and FG. FG I think might be neat, but the STG (H) was made with "stamped" metal and with close to no actual maintenance options... (The STG (M) was made to be maintanted and used for longer periods). They were made to have a service life that compared to the "Period they were likely to be used" meaning the dismantling, cleaning etc is pretty much impossible for them... They work, when they don't it's more of a "Jesus christ I never expected you to live longer than the gun! Here have a new one instead" concept...
One of the reasons that so few of them survived to a "servicable" condition at this date, while we still have so many K98's and MP40's.
you can have 100 people say yes they'd buy it, but you're lucky to get 20 people out of the 100 that actually have the money to buy them, and maybe less than half that actually buys
Example: Currently there are many people saying if Ruger brings back the Marlin 39A to the original standards they would buy one. No, most of them wouldn't, not at the price Ruger would need to charge.
Yep, I'm one of the folks who would love to have PSAs STG, but am pretty sure I won't get one till I find it used being sold by someone who just lost their job, or some other rotten scenario.
This is why the Street Performer Protocol exists, aka Kickstarter. People's word that they would buy is worthless; a prepaid pledge at a reward tier that includes one unit of the item is a guaranteed sale. And if a manufacturer sees 10,000 people say they will buy one, but only 500 people actually pledge, they can safely just refund the pledges and refuse to tool up. And none of those 9,500 no-shows can complain at all, because their choice was to put up or shut up, and they sure as hell didn't put up.
That's the same with any product brought to market. Manufacturer shows off new thing at trade show. Everyone oohs and aahs says "I really want one." Some people will put down a deposit with 100% certainty they'll buy one. Life happens, tastes change, specs of new thing change slightly and they end up not buying.
For Non-commercial reproductions, there’s a decent community here making guns throughout early history (12th century - 16th century), but of course it’s not profitable to make it commercial as the market is too niche.
How can a bamboo tube filled with gunpowder be a commercially viable option?
@@zhangtony3372 not enough customers
@@zhangtony3372 I own a fire lance for home defense, since that's what the Song dynasty intended. Four nomadic raiders break into my house. "By Buddha's belly!" as I grab my spread-horn head cover and Huochong hand cannon. Blow a golf ball sized hole through the first man, he's dead on the spot. Draw my hand grenade on the second man, miss him entirely because my agrarian arms and detonate the neighbor's dog. I have to resort to the pneumatic flamethrower mounted at the top of the stairs loaded with fierce fire oil, "人生如同白駒過隙!" the fire oil incinerates two men in the blast, the smoke and screams set off fire alarms. Fix halberd and charge the last terrified barbarian. He bleeds out waiting on the police to arrive since halberd bayonet wounds are impossible to stitch up. Just as the Song dynasty intended.
I would feel like the production requirements for such a period of firearms would also make it a little easier - as you wont be seeing the same chamber pressures (etc)
Layman's term: Not a lot of people want a matchlock musket.
The Italians have the reproduction single action & lever action market pretty much covered. Those guns are probably a lot easier to import due to the fact they are not semiauto and they appeal more to a wider audience.
And there's a market for those guns because of Cowboy Action Shooting. There isn't the same formalized sport driving sales of more modern reproductions.
@@AndrewAMartin That is true..but interestingly Uberti, Pietta etc were making those guns BEFORE CAS became a thing... Of course they must have thought it was Christmas when THAT game started to grow!!
Spaghetti Western films did for the Italians what cowboy TV shows did for Colt and Ruger. They helped gin up a mass market for Old West style guns among casual gun owners (not just cognoscenti). Same reason retro ARs and M1 carbine repros are still with us.
@@WanlaceYates I suspect you are spot on there!!! I got in to CAS early on here in Australia... I don't shoot it much any more - IPSC has taken over - but yes, I have owned/still do own quite a number of Uberti and Ruger products!
This is a visit to the Pietta factory. ua-cam.com/video/qdnbNJKJ9ZE/v-deo.html
As you can see, they use the same tooling to make their repro revolvers and their modern line of semiauto rifles and shotguns. They work in batches. "today revolvers, tomorrow semiauto rifles".
It's obvious that those machines can make anything in between. A Fyodorov Avtomat like a M1 Carbine. They only need the right imput. They can make them BETTER actually. With more consistent tolerances than the originals EVER had.
So why they don't do it?
Because, while manufacturing is not really a problem, designing is. Manual repeaters (revolvers, lever actions...) solve a lot of problems, because timing is decided and force is applied by the shooter. In a semiauto/auto weapon there are a lot of bits that have to work togheter for the weapon to work.
Much of those old designs required handfitting, because the admitted tolerances were so that, in a batch of supposedly identical parts, the right ones had to be chosen and coupled for the weapon to work. Worse, there was the "cascade matching" problem. When you took, IE, three parts that matched toghether, because they were all at one end of the tolerance scale, and then there was no fourth part that matched with them, because it should have been beyond the scale. It was a so common issue that, for the Winchester .224 prototype (the competitor of the AR15 in the CONARC competition) Winchester explicitly stated that they designed their rifle so that it couldn't happen. And we were in the late '50s. It was still a severe problem for the M60 MG.
Modern CNC machines can't work like that. so the modern designer has to come out with his own completely different, set of admitted tolerances.
Not to say that steel of the original composition is often unobtanium.
The REAL problem is that most of those designs were not that great to begin with. Even the most successful ones, (IE, the M1 Carbine, to say one) were good FOR THEIR TIME.
But the eventual purchaser of a modern repro would expect form it MODERN reliability and durability, otherwise "This is shit! The manufcturer scammed me!".
For the designer of the repro, it's like a nightmare. To him is like designing a completely new weapon, with the adjunctive constraint that he can't choose the solutions he KNOWS will work flawlessly. He has to keep it consistent with original solutions that he know work "so-so".
That's why modern repros, even when existing, mostly dont' have part interchangeability with the originals.
He speaks wisdom even if it isn't what my heart wants to hear.
I remember in the late 70’s, I saw a a catalogue from a Class 3 dealer in Arizona who had a couple of Stg 44’s for sale for $750. I’m not kidding. I was tempted but you couldn’t get 8mm Kurtz at the time so I bought an MG-34 for $1500. Those were the days.
Still got that MG-34?
That's $3400 in 2023 dollars for everyone crying in the comments section.
Should have bought it anyway. Could always find the ammo at a later date.
@@peterslaby9782 Actually $5782.93 The dollar and gone down in value 87% since 1970!!!!
I wish i could live in a time where i can legaly buy full auto guns 😞
The obvious exception of course being the Colt SAA. Mechanically simple enough, and iconic enough that many people don't even care if it is chambered in a different caliber, and lots of companies sell reproduction/clones of it.
1850's-1914 new production guns and parts or just different caliber's
Lots of cowboy era guns. LeMatt, Griswold, Walker...
PSA has recreated the Chinese "spiker" AK. I'm not a huge fan of AKs, but it seems to me that they can't keep them in stock. Anyway, I think close recreations of classic guns in modern calibers with modern mags are a neat idea. I'm glad PSA is doing it!
I know it won't happen, and i'd probably be the only one to buy it, but i'd like to see atleast some kind of attempt at a modern Mars or Lahti pistol. The Mars, cuz it's big caliber and it's basically a Deagle without the ugly looks, the Lahti, cuz it's just a nice gun. Or hell, if someone started making working reproductions of Chinese Mystery Pistols, that'd be something i'd be interested in. But yeah, not everyone wants a CB-1913M5 reproduction, and that's fair.
@@ukaszwalczak1154 you think the Deagle is ugly? Usually I say to each their own, but that just sounds wrong.
@@ukaszwalczak1154 BLASPHEMY! The deagle is beautiful
@@entitygames9751 The Deagle is just a swollen M1911 with the slide of a Chinese Mystery Pistol. The Mars is actually, something original.
@@ridiculousrandy1401 I don't like most pistols with Slides, the original M1911 is an exception but only if it's the original 1911 model, not the 1911A1, the original one.
I really like where Ian went with the Federov rifle reproduction. I'd say why not try to reproduce some of the other rifles of that WW1 era, such as the Mondragon or French RSC rifle. Then again, even new manufacturing is very difficult to do and there has to be a profit in order to make things viable in a business mindset. G43s and SVTs would also be really cool options for reproduction.
I wonder if making a reliable chauchat is possible, the gun was supposed to be simple and cheap, so I guess it wouldn't be too hard to bulid it. I think the biggest issue with the gun is the magazine and the ammunition
Molot in Russia makes 91/30 rifles, SVT rifles, SKS rifles and several other rifles. They’re cheap as shit too, just not importable because current situations and the import ban we had in the 90’s.
Maybe if you made and sold them in bursts you could see profit. Instead of full scale production. Like some companies release certain firearms for a while then discontinue. I might be wrong. Just a thought.
@@hunnerat-touaregi4439 That does nothing to reduce development/tooling/set up costs...
@@lunarpking Those are old rifles that are refinished and sold as new, with new barrels and stocks.
One thing I think gets overlooked is it is probably a lot easier to make reproductions of popular designs like the M-16, Colt 1911 or Winchester 1894 because you don't have to educate the customer on why it is cool or worry about availability of accessories and parts. I think a FAMAS G2 would be awesome, but that is because I watched Ian use a FAMAS in Desert Brutality.
A company doesn’t HAVE to make reproductions of any of those. They’re still made today and an M16 can easily be done with a parts kit.
I think a good example of modern reproductions being commercially viable are the Auto-Ordinance m1 carbines.
Yeah except their QC is virtually non existent
Cool reproduction carbines but terribly made...ripped cases, double feeds, unreliable magazines, all that mess.
@@hjp14 all the parts they use are out of spec, they use whatever junk they get from their shell companies overseas.. It's a shit show
@@hjp14 not all of us can afford a fulton
Which speaks to what Ian says here about quality - it better be pretty perfect or everyone is walking away
The whitney wolverine reproductions were a good example of going so far from the original no one wanted them. I’d love an original or one that looks like one. That 50’s scifi look.
That, or the new FN "Faux-power". Not original enough to speak to enthusiasts (no parts compatibility, not even magazines), but not modernized enough for the mainstream market either (steel frame, no optics or accessory mounting).
On top of that the pictures I've seen of them have been horribly for together, major misalignments and whatnot.
I mean, what were they thinking.
@@Tunkkis almost like the new browning a5’s. The old ones were loved. They were just heavy and got too expensive to make. But 20 years later there was still do much if a demand browning(fn) brought them back modernized them and actually made a good gun in itself. But it doesn’t give the same feeling as shooting an original. Fn also owns winchester and at least brought the lever guns the right way. The 1866,1873 and 1894 are good enough. Just the 1886 and I believe the 1895 have those damn tang safeties.
Sorry what gun did they try to make?
@@LilPistachiofr they made a whitney wolverine but they were black, had shorter barrels that were threaded or had comps, had optics rail etc. completely took away from the lines of the gun. No one bought them and they malfunctioned like crazy.
Or the 'new and improved' Remington 51!
"New and Improved" really means "cheaper and easier to manufacturer"!
I hope that if the STG 44 reproduction goes on the market later this year as planned by PSA, Ian will acquire a test and evaluation model and put a bunch of rounds thru it in front of the camera so the rest of us can see first-hand if it is reliable enough to spend the 2000.00 or more it will cost to buy one.
Honestly if they could get the price down to the 750-1000 dollar range they would have a hot seller. I really hope that it can get separated from the history of the rifle and can be tacticooled without spoiling the lines of the gun.
I remember once a discussion about the production of the Vis (Radom) pistol in its original form. The factory produced something, but purists complained that the production technology was already different. Others answered them: "Come on, today no one makes weapons with pre-war methods, because technology has advanced."
There's a design being developed for the 3d printer called a "FAMAR" which has a 3d printed FAMAS body with metal AR-15 parts.
Yeah the 3d printing community is probably the best bet for some of the reproduction firearms, theres projects for a famas, Aug, p90, g36, cetme c, tommy gun, mp40, and probably more down the line as the technology grows and more people get into it
@@TheSamuraieater a GSG mp40 is on my wishlist.
@@TheFredmac have one for a couple years. But what sucks is finding parts for it, my rear sight fell off last year. Can't find any solutions for this problem
My initial thought when I saw the title was the video would go like this.
Intro*
Ian* "they're expensive and don't sell"
Outro for the remaining video time with some sort of sad music*
The other issue that Ian did not mention is that to make a reliable weapon you need the Technical Data Package that specifies the tolerances of each part, type of steel, hardness, etc. You can’t get this but just putting calibers to a few old examples.
The TDP is not enough if the original materials are not available. Also some production techniques require expensive custom machines that only make sense in very high production operations. This was mentioned in one of the PSA STG44 videos. Even so, there was still a lot of hand fitting of older weapons. It was also not uncommon on the production lines to need to try several individual parts combinations to get one that worked well in a particular firearm.
@@jfess1911 We have categorically better production materials and processes now, it’s cheap to overshoot materials qualities requirements. It’s not that difficult to CNC machine pretty much any shape and tolerance. The question is how many do you have to make for testing before you find reliable working tolerance specifications. And even then, how many parts will interchange in the originals with their different details (even if you exactly reproduced the one template original…).
@@Georgewilliamherbert I have worked in factories with both modern and old, even WWII-era equipment (ACME, Davenport and South Bend screw machines). Using a CNC to produce numerous small parts is actually quite slow and expensive compared to dedicated or custom-built but very specialized machines optimized to produce specific parts. Even being able to forge or cold/hot-form parts to near-net shape dramatically reduces machining time and cost at scale. To take advantage of this equipment, though, you need to produce hundreds if not thousands of each part per day.
Even though Hill and Mac actually had the TDP for the STG44, it took years to make it reliable. In one of their recent videos they flat out stated that the TDP was not enough and that they had great difficulty replicating the materials and mass production methods used in WWII. In the end, they gave up on some parts and, for example, decided to buy the entire trigger pack from H&K because they could not build it themselves at anywhere the near the same cost.
@@jfess1911 What you hot or cold forge, what you extrude or cast (sand, investment, lost foam, hot die etc) or additively manufacture all is going to depend on materials and volume and materials cost and … yeah. Dedicated machines are great if you’re feeding hundreds to tens of thousands of parts a day through. An ex’es father built and maintained tooling at the Corvette motor factory. Some parts at that volume with dedicated machines, others got CNCed or batch forged intermittently or … all sorts of solutions.
CNC means the least tool development in your delivery timelines and cost timelines. But they’re rarely the fastest possible way. Just the fastest flexible way you can buy tooling off the shelf…
Actually that would be the most useless part.
Much of those old designs required handfitting, because the admitted tolerances were so that, in a batch of supposedly identical parts, the right ones had to be chosen and coupled for the weapon to work. Worse, there was the "cascade matching" problem. When you took, IE, three parts that matched toghether, because they were all at one end of the tolerance scale, and then there was no fourth part that matched with them, because it should have been beyond the scale. It was a so common issue that, for the Winchester .224 prototype (the competitor of the AR15 in the CONARC competition) Winchester explicitly stated that they designed their rifle so that it couldn't happen. And we were in the late '50s. It was still a severe problem for the M60 MG.
Modern CNC machines can't work like that. so the modern designer has to come out with his own completely different, set of admitted tolerances.
Not to say that steel of the original composition is often unobtanium.
The REAL problem is that most of those designs were not that great to begin with. Even the most successful ones, (IE, the M1 Carbine, to say one) were good FOR THEIR TIME.
But the eventual purchaser of a modern repro would expect form it MODERN reliability and durability, otherwise "This is shit! The manufcturer scammed me!".
For the designer of the repro, it's like a nightmare. To him is like designing a completely new weapon, with the adjunctive constraint that he can't chose the solutions he KNOWS will work flawlessly. He has to keep it consistent with original solutions that he know work "so-so".
That's why modern repros mostly dont' have part interchangeability with the originals.
Obviously the most commercially viable reproduction would be of a H&K G11, including making the caseless ammunition for it in quantity. Obviously.
😂😂😂
Well of course, then of course a Light Sabre
4:38 FG-42 and STG-44 are both great case studies here, especially since the former is already in production by Smith Machine Group
I would love to have a FG 42!
Get in line, buddy.
MAT-49's Reproductions are deseperately needed, my grandfather had one in Algeria. Such a great and reliable fireram, it deserves to be available again.
It'd have to be an SBR here in America, or considered a pistol if the stock's welded in like Pioneer Arms' PPS43C, or no stock to bubba with a stabilizing brace. Otherwise the barrel would have to be extended like the MAT 49-54
J’espère qu'il en a bien dégommé, de ces chiens du FLN!
@@johntavish8750 Apparemment c'est un peu grâce à lui que l'oranais est resté plus tranquille que le reste de l'Algérie. Cette guerre a été un beau bor/del (je sais pas si yt accepte le mot) mais il a pu faire son travail.
I'm in the UK so it wouldn't matter anyway but a repro EM2 in a standard calibre like 5.56 would be awesome, and I mean an actual EM2 not an L85 lol.
Could it not be a straight pull to be UK legal?
Goddamn man, thought I'd see your channel pop up in Forgotten weapons at some point. Love your content, would love to talk about a Civil defence bunker I've had a look around in SE London
There's a UK dealer working up production loading of 7mm Mk1Z AKA .280/30 British. If you're going to pay an arm and a dick for a one-off reproduction of a rifle nobody has made in 70 years, might as well go the whole hog! 🤣
.22 and 9x19 cosmetic replicas seem the most cost effective options. Good look, simple internals and cheap ammo.
The Sten! The Uzi! Both stamped parts and very few parts. They wouldn’t be full auto but still cool.
Same thought. Can hide a cheap reliable mag in an original looking cover
Stamping is a problen with low production number items. The dies are extremly expensive and require a lot of knowldedge to manufacture and operate. The big benefit of stamping, the realy cheap unit cost, only applies when large numbers are made witch is unlikley for reproductions. In RnD I have seen people mill pieces out of solid blocks that resemble stampings.
@@lukahierl9857 cnc milling as well as 3d printing is the way on reprodution. Rd would be negligible on these. Think along the lines of 10-22 and stemple clones. A gun in a costume
You can't keep a .22 to run reliability enough. A buddy of mine has a repo 22lr STG, while it's nice to have it isn't worth it when it won't shoot.
I think the Sturmgewehr is a good option to do, just because tons of people want one that aren’t gun collectors, cuz so many of us have used them in games (Battlefield, Wolfenstein, etc). I certainly want one and I’m not a “collector”.
You nailed its pronunciation, my uncle had one with all the gadgets including the lights that track the road. The suspension was a pain in the backside but it sat well on the road, I had a BX years later and it was way ahead of the times, to be honest, to be honest, all Citron cars were pretty advanced but sadly did not hold their value well over here. The sporty bx was a brilliant car to drive. The SM was probably the best as it had the Maserati engine. They all were pretty cutting-edge cars but as I said at the beginning the suspension was troublesome, oh one of the models could drive on 3 wheels, I can't remember what one of them was but I remember a video on it. I believe they were the most complex simple cars made. Thanks for bringing back the memories, loved this show. The tip I will give you is to check all the manufacturers who were in partnership with Citroën back then and also check larger shareholders as you may find that they were also sharing components if the shareholder was also a car manufacturer. Kind of the way Renault is making engines for the Mercedes A class which I'm unsure if it is sold in America. All the best from Scotland.
I think one reproduction that would be a hit on the market would be an M1 Garand. Mike from NodakSpud/PSA said that when they purchased H&R, they also received the TDP for the M1 Garand and digitized them for production. An M1 from the CMP would have greater historical value, but a new production M1 that I don't have to worry about trashing would be awesome too. Plus, none of the ranges around me are with the CMP, and the clubs that are with them are JROTC or high school clubs.
The M1 makes sense. That action is still in production with current M1s and the Mini-14. I'd also love a CNC'd aluminum-receiver BAR that would be legal in pretty much every state lol
Springfield Armory, Inc. already did that, and people bitched about the cast receivers and the price and the non-GI parts etc. And while the CMP continue to sell real ones (which wont go on forever) they can continue to get the ones they really wanted.
@@MkVII Mike has said they’ll be using forged receivers. Personally I don’t care about GI parts on a repro, I’d rather have new production parts that I don’t have to worry about.
I don’t care for Springfield armory anyways.
I hope that Fedorov’s Avtomat reproduction will get made eventually.
I don’t think there’s a big enough market. Closet you can get now is an sks with a detachable mag.
Me too man. Me too...
I want this so badly too
It's one of those that probably will never be made. First, it's quite complicate, second, Fedorov himself admitted it had reliability issues.
But the purchaser of a modern repro would want MODERN reliability (not even 1917 reliability) from it. He wouldn't accept "it seldomly work because the originals were like that too".
For the designer of the repro, it's like a nightmare. To him is like designing a completely new weapon, with the adjunctive constraint that he can't choose the solutions he KNOWS will work flawlessly. He has to keep it consistent with original solutions that he knows work "so-so".
@@soylentgreen7074 That sounds like the most ambitious bubba yet.
And yet I think it's possible with a Fedorov-like stock and handguard kit, though the SKS sights will probably have to remain. It would still be a cool novelty, like a Ruger 10/22 M1 carbine
As for the old calibre thing, don't forget that adapting an older gun to a more common cartridge occasionally sacrifices reliability. Walther PPK in 380, versus the original 7.65mm, is a good example.
My only gripe is the over-abundance of Sporter Mausers and the absence of K98 clones.
Is it that bad though?
Just go for the closest common caliber.
I don't know that I would consider the PPK as a good example. Walther began offering the .380 version of the PP in 1931, 2 years after the release of the original. The same was true of the PPK 9 Kurz version being released in 33 a year and a half after the PPKs release in 7.65 in late 31. That's not an older design adaptation time wise, nor was it an adaptation In favor of, as both chamberings were produced concurrently.
The PPKs "380" problem could very well have been a "Ammunition" problem more than a design issue. I own a PPK in both calibers. The 7.65 will eat anything it's fed. The .380 is a bit pickier about its fodder. Cheap .380 ammo gives it hiccups (ComBloc is the worst). Better .380 ammo, and it feeds and runs as reliably as its littler older brother.
The PPK Super in 9 X 18 Ultra, performed well according to reports, the decision by European LE to go to 9 X 19 Parabellum killed the Super and 9mm Ultra both.
I think the real issue is companies don't like to risk guaranteed profits spending money on non-guaranteed profits. But as a business owner I've found you need to take risks. The TFBTV Showtime channel covered the STG-44 from PSA and it is their most watched video, EVER in 3 years of posting. So I think there's certainly enough interest to justify the tooling, companies simply don't want to risk it. Which I can understand to a degree, but then you get a very static industry
There is a saying in business:
Profits are projected, costs are guaranteed.
For something as famous as the STG 44 it makes sense, but of course there is always that balance.
Just because it’s their most viewed video doesn’t mean those views represent a purchase.
@@hueco5002 I'll be a heretic here, and possibly upset a few people.
The gun "community" really isn't and gunTuber viewers with few exceptions are not equipped to buy much more than budget guns.
In pure dollars and cents, better not base your projected gross revenue based upon the number of views.
That would go for bicycles, tents, widgets, guns, etc.
@user-ko7ry1dp4d solid points. i have no intentions of buying an stg44. i was interested in seeing a breakdown of the reproduction and what changes were made to make it viable bla bla.... i honestly do hope it is successful though so they'll branch off into other historic firearms. I'd buy/order a federav literally the second i saw it if it was made in a caliber i could actually get.
As an engineer I'd like to point out that a single injection mold, just the part without the engineering costs, is about $36000 USD. These are precisely milled massive chunks of steel that need to also have spouts for excess and to be designed around the constraints of fluid mechanics for the flowing plastic.
Even a mold for a press to form polymer parts is going to end up costing a ton due to how long it has to hold up to a metric fuck ton of heating and cooling cycles which means a simple looking part still will cost a lot.
In short manufacturing only ends up being profitable once you got a certain scale of production that can off set those start up costs.
Also I'd love a FAMAS repro or Federalis repro (make it in 5.56 or 7.62x39 and take ar or so mags).
The FAMAS might actually be more viable than at first glance. The rise of multi-jet fusion 3D printing giving anisotropic material qualities means you could create a version one using MJF printed polymer parts (designed for eventual injection molding) and then go forward with acquiring the molds only if the project proves popular enough to justify the expense.
Ditto! but go with the 3D printing.
@Paul Thompson there's already a 3d printable one out there rn.
I think one added point- older designs also tend to have some… less than ideal design decisions, from a modern perspective. And TBH, there’s a reason that many of them weren’t selling well enough to maintain production in the first place. So if you’re going to make one, do you keep these things that people will hate, for sake of authenticity? Or do you jettison them to try and make the product more appealing to modern consumers? The Hi-Power is an interesting example of this, with several companies (FN, Springfield, and Girsan/EAA) recently each demonstrating different takes on how to approach doing one (FN going much more modern and really just keeping the aesthetic, Springfield staying mostly traditional, and Girsan kind of splitting the difference).
And for a reproduction to sell well enough to be financially viable, you (generally) need to find a way it can operate in one of the other main uses people want for firearms. In the general market that means (in order) home/self defense, hunting, or competition. Range toys are just straight up HARD to sell currently, and I’d imagine because there’s less consensus in that segment of the market on what consumers want. You ask a hundred random gun owners what they’d want in a home defense rifle, you’re probably gonna have some pretty identifiable trends (calibers, features, price point, etc) that people want. But you ask a hundred gun owners what gun they’d love for the range or just for fun, you’re probably gonna have close to a hundred different answers. Good luck appealing to enough people to turn a profit.
I'm a big fan of inspired designs as opposed to exact remakes, which gives you license to use generic calibers & magazines while focusing on capturing whatever is special about the original mechanism or appearance
One thing is that I'm Suprised we don't see more 22lr replicas, say a c96 that's just a straight blowback 22, or something of the like
One thing I'd like Ian to discuss is that PSA isn't just teaming up with HMG for their StG-44 project, but that it's the first an what I've read is an entire line of reproduction firearms, called their Battlefield lineup. As far as I know, it's just the StG-44 for now, but I've heard that they've implied there might be a Garand reproduction in the future.
Psa has become the best gun company we have. They actually want to make customers happy and have what they need to defend themselves and the country
Ian: nice work, as always!
I think the most valuable part of the presentation was the section on magazines, which frankly I had not considered.
A version of an STG-44 in 7.62x39, using AK mags. Lots of AK platform people would consider that... Or 5.56x45 using AR mags.
Coming from the guitar world first and the gun world later I think the major problem is that most people either want the best cool new thing or surplus antiques. Where in the guitar world people will buy a 59' reproduction Les Paul to be like Jimmy Page, I don't think there's as much of a market for that kind of thing in the gun world. Compound this problem with the amount of capital that's required to set up the initial tooling it's just not economically viable. Great video as always Ian!
I think another big thing is how different guitar (and more broader wood) manufacturing operates a fair bit differently than metal goods manufacturing in term of the necessary production steps and tools, seeing how luthiers still happily exist as a trade.
@@cubasfidelcastro 100% was just using it as an example. Machining raw metal is a whole different ball game. Son of a carpenter and welder by trade.
No one was making a reproduction of medieval 15c cannons so me and my friends have made 4 of them now we have done shows as far as Sweden and France ! Not bad considering the difficulty of getting the appropriate licenses that are very hard to get in the UK.
Here in the US, you don't need licenses and shit for a cannon. You can go a buy one or make it yourself and, as long as it's black powder, won't get in trouble with the feds.
It feels weird that some humans no different than me on this same space rock require licenses to own something I can buy, make, or have made as if it was a piece of furniture.
It's pretty awesome though 👌 I really want a cannon of reasonable size that I can move around on my own. I'm thinking of making one that fires racketball size lead round balls.
People abroad mostly think Americans can go pick up a gun whenever at the local grocery, and it's amusing to thin on. But for antiques, black powder, and a few other niche items, you can actually very literally just purchase online and have shipped to your house. 🤣 the whole black powder and antiques not being considered guns is honestly strange, being that various states have vastly different laws for firearms.
Hern iron works makes lots of cannons here in the USA
Hey man, that is really cool! How long did it take for you to make one of those 4?
Nice :)
If you’re a collector, and you have paid a premium for an original gun. Sure you might take it to the range a couple of times a year. But you, probably would not want to wear out, that prized item. A reproduction would be a good stand-in for practice and weapon proficiency.
Very well put
not sure what the case is for being proficient with a rare and obsolete firearm... but I'm totally with you for fun 😁
@@RealJohnnyDingo: If you are interested in learning how to field strip, shoot, and maintain a valuable antique firearm. You might want to practice on a cheaper reproduction, so as not potentially damage a historically significant antique and degrade its value.
Your market for the production is still the same as the market for the already niche collector's item and a collector would not buy one of each over spending that on a different one for the collection
@@KaitouKaiju look at black powder civil war revolvers - if you could afford an original these days it would not be a daily shooter, but more likely a museum piece. the repros are very popular because they're cheap, fun to shoot, and still have some historical appeal because they are very much like the original articles. they are thoroughly obsolete so you wouldn't equip your army with such weapons, but it's still fun and dare I say educational to shoot one.
I have a suggestion. A 'generic' ww1/ww2 battle rifle. Customer buys a basic rifle 'innards / mechanism in either (5.56, 7.62x39 or 300blackout) and then you choose a furniture 'kit' which includes wood stocks, sights, fittings in the style you want:- SMLE (including No4 mark1), K98, Mosin Nagant M42, Mannlicher Carcano etc.
These would not be clones, but modern rifle kits, 'in the style of...' in a selection of modern, ready available calibers.
You could offer a modest selection of stocks, laminated woods and even unfinished stocks. However the mechanisms would be modern bolt-action mechanisms.
Just a thought.
My first gun i ever bought was a GSG/ATI STG-44 chambered in .22LR, it looks great but as i found out when i called for a replacement part, it wasn't meant to be shot, small batch production alongside their MP40s that were meant to stay in the box for display. Despite all that it was a fun little pinker even though it's been sitting for the last couple of years in need of a bolt repair.
Pretty excited about the STG44 coming out in 7.62x39
Another point on purism - the purists are also the ones more likely to pay high prices, since they are typically the most passionate about the gun. So, if you move away from a purist-oriented reproduction, you'll also have to lower the price point in order for it to actually sell.
TRUTH!
And, purists with loaded pockets are so few that it would not offset R&D costs.
Purists want unobtainium because they are unobtainable.
And the argument, as Ian says, is that making it with more "modern" features allows that price to come down, so it's still a viable choice of picking authentic versus convenience.
The weapon is being produced in several calibers. The "purist" can have his authentic version. I would like one that handles 7.62x39/AK mags. Another would want 5.56/300 BO with AR mags. win, Win, WIN!
A good example is Fulton Armory with their reproduction M1 Garands, it’s cheaper to buy a real one if you can get a deal than buy a new production, although if I’d been hill and Mac I probably would’ve tried partnering with a magazine manufacturer like Magpul for Mecgar to produce the STG 44 mags
I wouldn't want to meet the guy who would buy a Fulton M1 Garand over a GI M1 Garand.
It would be a highly lopsided deal to partner with a mag company. As Ian alluded to, the mag takes up most of the development time and a prospective buyer is going to buy, what, less than a dozen mags? While expecting those mags to be affordable?
@@eddietat95 it’s gonna be way easier for a magazine company to replicate a mag then say hill and Mac, because all magazine companies do is make magazines and they have usually decades of experience doing it
@@Scott079 It quickly becomes a "chicken and egg" scenario. Unless the firearm manufacturer coughs up all of the money for production up front, the magazine manufacturer will insist that there is a proven demand for them. The firearm manufacturer needs the magazines to sell the gun in the first place. Getting a magazine to work in a particular firearm is not as simple as many think. Getting a mag to work consistently with every variation of min-max tolerance of both the firearm and the magazine (+ ammo variation) is not a "magazine only" issue.
@@dancortes3062 only scenario I can see is wanting one that runs .308 reliably instead of 30-06. I have photographs of my grandfather using a wartime expedient cut-down of an M1, so I went to fulton to create a replica (the tanker was very close) that won't beat itself to death and eats .308 as it's more readily available.
Ian, one of the potential markets you didn't mention are a special niche. That is for WW2 reenactors where appearance is the most important feature. It matters not whether they shoot projectiles is not an issue, as a matter of fact, not shooting a projectile makes them safer for reenactment. So a simple blank/cap firing mechanism, hidden under a realistic outer shell would be a very desirable "toy" that would assist a reenactor to gain a more capable and desirable prop with better performance in that role than being stuck with a lower performance rifle such as a K98k (which prices are rising rapidly) or a Garand, which is also rising quickly. Just an idea, as I was in that position for several years as a reenactor of both sides. Further, if the replica was a noise only replica, then local laws, such as in Washington State, prohibiting full auto weapons, would no longer present a difficulty.
The best argument for making reproduction firearms is that it allows more people to experience shooting them. Not many people are able to buy originals, and even fewer people are willing to shoot their historic firearms. The main place where reproductions have done well is in black powder firearms and guns of the old west. There are still many fans of those eras, and there are plenty of shooting competitions built around those guns. I would love to see a company specialize in making reproductions of firearms from every era. From the 1600s through the 1970s. They could make smaller runs and presell them to see what is truly in demand. Then, make additional runs of the most popular firearms. Similar to how high-end movie prop reproductions and models are done. If it is in an obscure caliber, then sell it with 200 rounds as the standard option and have options for it to come with 500 or 1000 rounds. Also sell it with a minimum of 4 magazines if it has detachable magazines.
The de lisle commando carbine would seem like a good gun to reproduce: it is useful but also a colectible, it uses .45 acp and it uses m1911 magazines,seems pretty cheap to make
Someone made one.
@@kalashnikovdevil oh damn
Suppressor difficulties
A New Zealand guy makes them. It has a longer barrel than the original to keep the overall length over 750mm. If it’s shorter than that it’s a pistol, which is much more tightly regulated here. I’ve fired one, it is amazingly quiet. The slap of the round on steel target is louder than the firing signature
Will you make a video on the PSA StG-44? Would be interested in hearing you talk about it, it’s differences, and reproduction firearms in general.
I think Ian and Karl did interview HMG years ago about the StG44, before the project stalled. It left a bad taste that people paid up front for a gun that might never be produced. I hope it does sell well. If it does come out , I bet Ian would do a video on it.
Yes, definitely
Ian: Magazines are a big issue
C96, Steyr M1912: allow us to introduce ourselves
This is one of the reasons everybody used to run around with SKSes and revolvers in DayZ, the zombie video game - magazines spawned separately, so you often ended up with an AK that had no magazine, or a bunch of random magazines but no gun.
Those still have a magazine, it is just internal and so you again have the tooling costs.
@@tenofprime true, but you don't have to design new magazines or design/produce an extra badge of magazines
@@Bishop_Heahmund and you also get inherent ammo compatibility with the latter pattern of M1912
@@AshleyPomeroy Hey your comment got me thinking....We should ask Lan..."How come gun manufacturers along with parts manufacturers doesn't make certain video game guns? The Samurai Edges are a great example".
What most people don't realize that gun manufacturers are not in the business to make guns! They are in the business to make money, and happen to have the talent to make guns. It would be nice if their only interest was to make guns, costs be damned, but that's not how the world works. Ian did a very good job of explaining why more reproduction guns are not available.
Thanks for restating this Ian. From comments I see on this channel and others, I would say that there is reason to repost this video every six months to a year. Even in the comments on this video there seem to be folks that immediately after just watching the video are making statements as if they never saw the video and are living in some fantasy land of gun reproduction dreams.
Great story Ian. I did not realize the “Magazines” were a big issue to reproduce. Then I thought of what a production line might really look like. There would have be a lot of money invested.If you get an order for something like 10,000 guns to be reproduced I could see building a factory just to make magazines. Not in California.🤔
I'm of the opinion that quite a few of the early, single shot breach loaders (skip all the magazine headaches) could be reproduced quite cheaply with modern CNC machining. Of course, even if you could get the price down to a few hundred bucks, the problem is that there's very little market interest in them. And also originals of quite a few of them survive in surprising numbers.
And some of those, like the Sharps, are already on the market, for those that want them.
Really looking forward to the HMG Sturmgewehr!
At this rate you should probably go for the PSA repro of the STG
@Arcturus it's the same thing, PSA bought out Hill and Mac
Been looking forward to it for 5? 6? Years now!
I used to think "Oh that'd be cool to have" but Ian's explained enough and looking at reproduction prices and varying quality that I'm happy with the guns I have and if there's something I really want to keep? Well, I'll save up for an original if it's available.
Quite a few guns, after Ian did a video was enough for me. He finished my bucket list a year ago via videos. :)
Kodiak defense out of Canada is planning on selling full reproduction k98 in 8mm and 308 and they’ve gone out of their way to say they aren’t gonna cost a gazillion dollars
Never forget the Bren Ten and the Dornhaus and Dixon magazines.
I can’t wait to see completely modernized STGs
There is the big market of reproduction handguns. Someone mentioned the Italian BP revolvers already but that is far from it. The Colt SAA is available as a reproduction as is some semi auto they introduced a few decades later. But all those guns were huge commercial success in their own time already.
My personal take is that initially interest in old military surplus was down to two kinds of buyers; people who bought surplus guns because they were cheaper and more widely available, and those enthusiasts who were collectors.
Of course surplus isn't cheap anymore a 50 dollar Mosin is now going for like 500 dollars. The only people who would be interested in that are those historical collectors or people with similar interests. As much as I'd love to own an authentic M1 Garand or SVT there is no way I'm dropping over a grand on a gun that is 80 years old.
So those who would be interested enough in a historical recreation are a niche market. Not when everyone wants a tacticool AR/M4 variant.
Watched the video, and I see Ian said a lot of those same points.
I'm like Ian and usually have interest in these kind guns just to play with. Had the MSAR 5.56 and that kind of fizzled. Have an AUG now and am happy. Picked up the Brownell's Ar-10 and absolutely love it. I have the lightweight one and put on the brown furniture and prong FH. The stock front sight was too low so I had a gunsmith drill and tap the sight post for an AR threaded post to make it shootable. Had the Brownell's 601 and my brother talked me out of that one. I never shot it, but the barrel pin slot in the receiver was out of spec and had to be fixed. But the biggie for me was getting on the HMG list back in November of 2015 for the STG and going through the ringer with that one. So that didn't happen and I was refunded but I'm glad that PSA can back the project now. Maybe they can get them out and see them actually work in the wild.
I think it would be great to see more repro civil war cavalry carbines chambered in more readily available centrefire ammunition
34 years in manufacturing here. Few outside the industry truly understand the expenditures involved for something like this. They see CNC videos on youtube and equate it to replicator levels of magic. Not so. Not at all.
Yep, not to mention the cost of re-engineering the firearm to be made with modern techniques.
I work in the firearm manufacturing industry. We just spent $8 million for a new automation cell just to make 1 critical component for a gun that isn't even out yet.
I run Tsugami Swiss lathes. Just for the machine to sit idle costs $7/hour in electricity. Close to $40/hour when running. We have 7 Tsugami's. One of the custom form drills I use to make the firing pin hole in the bolts is close to $400. We run them until they break. My team lead loaded in the carbide hammers wrong into the hammer forge one night and crash them. $40K turned to dust in 1/2 second. If you scrap a barrel on finish turn its $200 gone. The costs are insane. And then there is an 11% excise tax for every firearm we make. I don't know how we ever make money but we make a lot of it somehow.
A semi auto mat49 repro would be pretty neat
I asked Pedersoli for the chance of reproing an 1851 Minie Rifle and they said about what the argument was, tooling and market issues.
A friend had a cottage business called Diva Arms. She took HK 93s and dressed them up to look like a Stg44. Reenactors were the primary market. If PSA does a run better snatch one quick. 300 blk or 7.62x39 might be a good option.
GSG makes stg and mp40 (as well as 1911
) in .22 lr. Umarex makes blank versions.
I have two of their STG44's. Love them! Only problem is the magazines. Not many around, and they're expensive. They are fun shooters though!
@@davidturcotte5677 it is american bais 45 € (in Germany) is almost like an Airsoft Gas magazin. But sure american prices are awesome.
I have their mp40 in 9mm and it works just great. Haven’t had a problem with the magazines either.
I gave up on my dream of collecting historic firearms because I can’t afford it, and likely never will be able to at this rate. I’d be happy to settle for a repro, it would be less stressful trying to determine if the gun is matching, functional, etc….but still too prohibitively expensive.
I keep reading about 3D printed molds for small batch parts being very cost effective. Might eventually help with reproduction firearm polymer parts, given their limited runs. FAMAS lower receiver is pretty big, though, which won't help.
There are different polymer technologies. Injection moulding is expensive to gear up but cheap on the long run.
Castable resins, when properly cured, can have superior strength with a lower cost of entry, given 3D printing. Sure, the internals won't necessarily match the injection moulded ones, but how often do they need to?
Knowing the market is important for any commercial venture. If you're doing it for the love, then please yourself.
What Ian is saying about reproductions is 100% spot on. There are dozens of examples of reproduction firearms that have done well, but for every 1, you have several dozen that don't. I was at a gun shop today, and there was a good spread of guns, and I was talking with someone looking to buy their own gun. The guy behind the counter was more a rifle guy, so I kinda stepped in to help with information. The guy picked up a dagger and a g19 that it was based on, and would rather have the original is you may. He didnt want a knock off. We moved onto Berettas, he liked the 92fs and I recommended he look at the girsan regard. Again, he said he would rather spend the extra $300 and get the original gun than a Turkish Knockoff. We ended at the 1911 cabinet, he picked up a Colt and a RIA and again, he would rather spend a few hundred more for a better built version of the same gun, and he's not wrong. I have a lot of the cheaper guns, and I can admit that the more expensive guns have better appeal, but I get on just fine with my cheaper guns.
A point to add about polymer is plastics can also be machined which is probably the way low production runs would be made.
A company could make a C96 reproduction, and also set some up as Han Solos blaster, with the muzzle device being a compensator and those would sell.
This should be a mandatory watch for all guntube viewers. Would help eliminate a lot of silly "they should make XYZ again" comments.
I'm not so sure about making xyz again, but I would totally buy an abc reproduction.
but they should
The dimension that Ian didn't mention is the legality of making them. I suspect that a reproduction of any of the SMGs from WWII would be insanely popular in just about any caliber, and most of them would be ridiculously simple to manufacture, but there is just no legal space to produce them in their original automatic form.
That and they have to have obnoxiously long 16” barrels. And stamping isn’t cheap and common anymore. Everyone moved in to cnc machines. So you’d have to do the r&d in stamping and all that. Look how simple mp5’s are. Stamped and welded but cost a shit ton. The bolt and barrel are quality.
@@soylentgreen7074 Yep, no one wants a cool SMG with an ungainly, disproportionately long barrel. Hell, the only reason I built my full-size Uzi is because I could put a fake suppressor over the 16 barrel.
Perfect timing Ian! I just happened to be thinking of this question in connection with the Luger earlier this morning.
there is also one notable exception: law
In Poland, any not self contained cartridge gun made before 1855 and replicas (so we're talking like cap and ball stuff, flintlock, matchlock, wheellock, but mostly cap and ball revolvers, shotguns and rifled muskets, note that dreyse or chasspot are self contained cartridge guns, as well as leffachoux style gun) are COMPLETELY unregulated, i mean, you just have to be over 18 years old. No background checks or anything. Compared to that, for any regular gun, you have to go through the process of getting proper permits and all that.
Because of that thing, there is really big market for 1851 Navys, 1858 New model armys and 1860 Armys, as they are effectively cheap (1/3rd cost of regular gun permit) and easy way of getting a firearm here. And thanks to that, Pietta and Uberti are making some really not bad money
At 11:30, we get to the real purpose of the video...😎
What was frustrating for me has been the lack of M16A1 clone guns and parts. Even before Brownell's retro series, the NoDak Spud parts were hard to come by, then I missed the Brownell's offering due to personal finances. When I finally grab a PSA gun, my AR itch may be well and truly scratched; call me a fudd but the modern AR iterations don't impress me at all. So much sameness...
Yeah covid really killed the retro stuff, price wise and availability wise. Is see 601, A1, A2 uppers going for 1k-2k !!!! Glad i got mine when they were $100. Sucks you missed out on the brownells items.
you need an AR180 they were the best non fully auto
@@adriandoyle8809 I'd like one of those, too. 🙂
Trust me, you're not a fudd. A fudd wouldn't believe in personal ownership of any sort of AR15 variant to begin with.
@@kutter_ttl6786 HA! 😎 TWO WORLD WARS!!!
I hope Ian does a review and comparison of the stg 44 to the psa version to come out soon.
I feel like a line from Top Gear is applicable here "...how hard can it be?" Then the project fails spectacularly.
This channel has covered a few weapons that look exactly like top gear went off to a shed and made them. 🤣
@@neilmackay5655 ambitious but rubbish.
Repro PO8 Lugers would be great, they would have to cost as much as a mid level 1911 to get them right, but if they made them to handle modern 9mm I think it would do very well
Nodak Spud doing a lot of the leg work for the Brownell guns probably helped the retro rifle project get off the ground.
Very well said sir. It’s hard to believe that we now have to discuss the issue of not finding ammunition in every caliber made. This is nothing more than a to slowly numb people to the realization that very soon we won’t be able to have any caliber of ammo. Thank you Ian for your always accurate insight.
Everyone wants something until it comes time to pay for it.
The demand for the StG44 is there and has been for 10 years. I’m going to get my be from PSA for sure.
Some people yes. I’ve been waiting for a certain reproduction to come out in the caliber I have had preordered for 3 years. I got tired of waiting and bought it in the only caliber its available in for now. If they ever come out with the one I preordered I’ll sell the current one.
Some of us will pay for it tho!
What I learned from this video is that the most successful reproduction guns are the ones based off those from the earliest days of firearms (ex: hangonne and matchlock), to those of the 19th century (ex: muskets, lever action rifles, revolvers, etc.). They are easier to produce compared to 20th century automatics, and as a result a number of companies such as Cimarron to Uberti have become successful businesses based on these repros.
What do you think, Ian?
True about 20th Century automatics, especially if they're German. The German autos tend to be over engineered. Let's face it, if the STG-44 was THAT great the Russians would have had no problem with stealing the design and making it themselves. They liked the concept but not the gun so they came up with the AK-47. MUCH better than the Sturmgewehr!
I just want a Winchester 1895 in either 762x54 or 3006 because I just really like the way that thing looks with the box magazine and the lever action
Graduate level knowledge. Thank you.
In many conversations with my father, over decades, he would wonder why modern car companies didn't make reproductions of iconic and beautiful cars from the past. With better engines, airbags, etc. Ian nailed it. It is vanity to make something which costs more than it can recoup in the market.
My dad and I may buy one, but the market is very small.
People with taste, and money.... at the same time?!?? We are all passionate about engineering and history, but the mass market....... not so much.
I think part of the reason someone would get a reproduction is they don't want to put wear and tear on an original, but they want to shoot it regularly with the original experience.
That's why I want an affordable repro, so I can go larp at matches and not worry about tearing up an original
@@kennetic9196 shit I was thinking about even getting a repro trenchgun as a hunting shotgun.
@@aboveaveragebayleaf9216what are we hunting?
@@matthewswan9419 krouts
@matthewswan9419 probably deer mostly. I'm not saying that's what I'm gonna do for sure, but it would be neat. Kill two birds with one stone. A cool piece of history that is also functional.
I can recommend the replications of Sportsysteme Dittrich from Germany. They are working with the original plans and actually have several original models for comparison/QA. The replicate the StG44, the MP38 and most importantly the FG42. All with an impressive build quality.
I wanted one of those StGs but they became unobtainable after the ATF stopped the import to the US
It's Sportsysteme btw
@@asgar1852 thank you, I fixed it!
I heard they were trying to set up a us importer recently, is this true? I would do anything to get that very accurately modeled fg42
Does Sportsysteme Dittrich offer the StG44 in 5.56?
I'm glad I bought my Brownells rifles when I did. Their retro line was really high quality. I love my BRN16A1 and my BRN10
Brownells really messed up not continuing their retro models. I guess they could always tool back up, but it seems as if PSA has picked up the slack in the meantime (for a better price).
@@stoptrackingourdata8158 Brownells for their forgings from Nodak Spud from what I understand and Nodak stopped supplying them with those once PSA bought them.
@@TylerHulan I'll be happy to give my money to either company as long as I don't have to gather the parts myself.
I turned one of Brownells AR Proto stripped upper/lower packages into a pretty cool little .22 with CMMG parts. It's not authentic to any previous AR models, but I think it's neat; and it was easy to build. No headspacing necessary.
@@stoptrackingourdata8158 sounds cool. I built an A2 Clone with a CMMG conversion kit and a Franklin trigger. Fun little set up.
@@TylerHulan Sounds dope!
CMMG is another company who needs to get it together though. I used their .22lr AR dedicated barrel and bolt kit (different than the conversion kit) on my build that they no longer manufacture. They need to bring it back. Makes it easy to build your own dedicated .22lr upper which I did with another one of their kits that I found sans front sight post.
CMMG used to make two versions; one with a fsp and one without. That way you could have a retro looking .22lr AR or a more modern version. I used the version with the barrel that had the front sight post on the BRN Proto since that had carry handle irons, and used the other style on a more modern .22lr upper with a free float barrel and modern optic.
Perfect candidate: TRW LMR
-5.56x45
-STANAG mags
-simple tubular construction
-sexy
-m60 trigger group easily replaced with a polymer assembly using an ar lpk
Just a thought. Perhaps forgotten weapons could do an interview with Ruger. And they could go into some detail about what has taken, to produce that magnificent Marlin lever gun.
God, I dream of getting an affordable FG-42. Mind as well buy a .50 cal rifle with the prices I've seen.
Rhineland Arms makes a 9mm one
If you want one... make your own in 30-06 or maybe even in 300 Winchester Magnum and rework the trigger from double action to single action because a fifteen pound trigger pull is no good.
@@Henrydbunny that's a simple direct blowback PCC badly cosplaying as an FG42.
By that definition, a Ruger 10/22 in a SG2000 conversion kit is a "reproduction" WA2000.
I think the biggest market of reproduction guns are the muzzle loaders and cowboy action (19th century American) guns, single shots and lever action rifles and single action revolvers. Italian companies did a great job about these categories (Pedersoli, Uberti, Pietta, etc). Also these are much less headache as no separate magazines.
Umberti does a great job with the colt SSA because they bought colts tooling if you buy a SSA from colt today they assemble it from parts they get from Umberti
People don't realize that most weapons sold are actually used for practical reasons. Even if you have the money and want to buy a rifle for your house, are you going to buy an StG because "it's cool", or are you going to buy a modern rifle with good ergonomics and proven design? Just because you want to shoot an old gun, that does not mean you see value in buying it. The only logical market for these guns, outside of collectors, would be ranges that could offer these guns as a novelty.
movie props?
*looks at bubba'd nagant propped in corner*
Logic? I haven't heard that name in years...
I too will happily purchase a PSA/44 for no reason but to be able to look at a gun in the safe that resembles a STG/44 in the dark. I've always wanted 'real' one, I'll likely never own a 'real one', so I'm happy with the next best thing; I would love to be married to 1996 Alecia Silverstone but that's not gonna happen so I'll settle for the next best thing.
We all make sacrifices.
Not that I'm thinking about it, I saw a 'tacticool' STG on one of Brandon Herrera's cursed gun images.. perhaps the PSA is the route to go, putting a can on it and maybe a Holosun just to really chap asses at the range.
Sure but a lot of people buy for cool factor too. I have 1 gun for every scenario I can count my life on. Service pistol, CCW pistol, service rifle, trusty shotgun. Every other gun I own is neat factor or for fun. I didn’t get an FNX 45 for any practical reason, I got it because it’s 15 rounds of 45 that’s a fun and soft shooter.
They are as much a novelty as a classic muscle car or antique watches. In reality they kinda suck in many ways compared to pretty much anything made today but there is still something about them that you enjoy spending your money on.
I own an Uberti 1873 Cattelman...don't talk to me about practicality 🤣
I wonder if rather than a FAMAS Valorise, it might work better to just make a FAMAS G2 and put a scope rail on top of the carry handle? It just seems like a FAMAS without the distinctive carry handle might have less appeal, since that's such a central part of the FAMAS look.
100% I would buy a reproduction famas valorise. It's my favorite variation, and I loved using it in video games it made appearances in.