Legit thought process of every kobudo practitioner I've ever met. I kinda get it, after all "the path of samurai is based around seeking death", Tsunetomo Yamamoto "Something with leaves I don't remember the proper title sorry"
The opposite extreme that people bring up: "you should never ever do anything else than edge parries, because putting huge nicks in your blade it is the only way ever to possibly protect yourself!" So yeah...
@@Sk0lzky yea, traditionalist are so annoying when it comes to subjects like binding and parrying with the edge. There are alot of chipped swords in museum as proof yet they still denying it
@@EnraiChannel I'm not exaclty sure which people or spheres of influence bring that up because it was mostly on forums, but I have. A lot. I'm glad that Skallagrimm made this great video showing that different needs bring different usage of the sword blade :-)
@@adude8216 maybe more dificult with multiple archers, the helmet youre wearing and your opposing footsoldiers engaging you in a melee. Guess its a matter of context. Perhaps a single man comes across a hunter who chooses to rob him. In that senario i could see a sword blocking an arrow
It looks perfect for a good epitaph on a gravestone: Here lies Knight X with his perfect sword. He always followed the rule "Never parry with the edge." He died in his first duel.
Straight edge parties are lousy. Flat parties are not a good idea during COVID-19, but in ordinary times they’re fine. So... the flat, except maybe in a pandemic.
I actually had to test this with two knives. I'm from rural Finland so owning a knife (the one used while camping, not a kitchen knife) is pretty basic stuff
@@jaketheasianguy3307 yep, it's the one good argument for (carefull) practice with sharp swords - the blades do handle surprisingly different to blunt swords (wich do handle different to training weapons made out of kevlar (?) or LARP swords)
@@zypherabe Larp sword made of foam surprisingly good for full contact sparring, not gonna lie. You could check out Shad's video about this topic ( ua-cam.com/video/6AQzolVYynw/v-deo.html ). Of course, nothing could really replicate the feeling of a real sword but it required alot of knowledge and experience
Its more like "there's so many things in life" where you could say "it depends." After law school, 99% of legal questions people ask me begin with "it depends," because law takes nuance, much like staying alive in a real life sword fight or any type of martial art.
@@MolotovZav Not many things in life are cut and dry. Hell, the Universe itself is near infinitely varied and ever changing. The only thing that's absolute, and unchanging, is Math. As long as the equations make sense, the process and result will always be exactly the same.
@@paulchapman8023 Actually a sadly good point. Look how many people risk death to save their phones in bad situations. Hard to believe and pathetic, but it exists.
15:11 "This is really not an 'either/or' discussion. It's both depending on..." *Matt Easton senses tingling* "...the situation." Somewhere in Surrey there's a man who is now bemused.
Maybe you didn't do it correctly, using your thumb to absorb all the force is a very bad idea. You suppose to let the opponent's blade slide off your flat and used it to power the counter cut
If anyone chops at me, I'm going to block however I can. then I'll worry about edge or flat. I'd probably use the flat whenever I could, but you worry about survival, first.
Intentional use of flat for parry is nonsense. It could happen, but in most situations it is risky. Old masters said "edge breaks flat" coz there is more power in it as it is shown in the video. You can hit your opponent in true times, so you can even avoid blade contact completely, but "trying to use flat whenever I could" is simply wrong mindset. In 99% situations you would not have time for making decision like that and trying to do so could simply mean you will be too slow or too weak to be succesful.
@@darth_dan8886 I thought they were for better hand protection (and an intermediary step between a simple cross guard and the more complex hilts you see develop in the Late Medieval and Renaissance eras), not for facilitating techniques involving the sliding of an opponent's blade along the flat of one's own.
I think you meant: Real life: Parry with which ever one you can. Being cut sucks. Also, using periods matter. It was actually hard to understand, even if you are right. ;)
Thank you for using as much historical information as possible, and by following up with real life applications. I can always appreciate research and methodical testing :)
I'm glad that there's such a big historical arms and armor community on UA-cam. Especially as a fantasy writer who's in no physical condition to learn HEMA myself.
I just wanted to tell you because of your channel I’ve changed my character for my drawing from a swordsman into a spread man thanks to you showing just how cool they can be . Thank you so much for showing me the true material arts that Europeans had for seed fighting.
Actually the Bolognese school (Anonimous, Manciolino, Marozzo) explicitly say to parry with the edge of the blade, most of the time with the short edge. It was interesting to see the damage on that rapier, it is consistent with their teaching!
I love your videos, from the choice in music, to the content and how you talk. They are awesome. I dont watch them enough though. Im gonna make a point to watch or listen to all of your videos.
While not as "good" as HEMA, when I was part of a stage sword fighting troupe, the argument was to block with the edge or near edge. We needed our swords to last, and a sword is better at absorbing repeated blows with the thicker cross-section of the edge. Repeated shear stress along the thinner cross-section of the flat was more likely to result in a broken sword.
Would edge damage just indicate that most swords or weapons where considered “combat consumables”? Longevity has its place but in this case the edge is consumed with binding..?
unless you do hard full on edge on edge contact most edge damage could be grinded or smoothed out. keeping the blade very usuable outside of trying to slice through tough cloth after to much wear. Eventually the blade will need replacement obviously
There's a mid-16th-century account of cavalry breaking multiple swords in the pursuit after a rout. In that case, the fleeing soldiers dropped everything, so it was easy for the cavalry to find another blade after one broke. The text doesn't specific how they broke these swords but does suggest some struck at running infantry who still had their helmets on.
Well... the answer is as usual it depends. Medieval steel was on average a lot softer than what we are used to have for swords nowadays. But there are also quite a number of examples with pretty good steel. When we look at the well maintained examples in the European armouries, the traces of use point towards a fencing system that used a lot less force, than what is considered normal in HEMA today. We see a lot of superficial scratchmarks on the flat of the blades, and many micro-nicks. Larger nicks are in comparison quite rare, but nothing out of the ordinary either. I think most people's perception of the energy necessary to deliver a substantial cut or to win a bind is quite skewed. Based on what I have seen, tried and experienced, I think a sword could last a lifetime under normal use back then.
@@AlexPanther the Icelandic Sagas have multiple cases of folks straightening bent swords under their feet and extra swords being kept handy for if their initial blade was blunted, interestingly. We know, of course, that they are not to be taken as gospel as they are clearly embellished in many cases, but it's telling just how often it's mentioned.
A good rule of thumb is that a sword could probably survive between 1-3 encounters before the blade was irreparably weakened. A lot will depend on the initial geometry of the blade and how the damage occurred. Deflecting blows, for instance, will result in greatly reduced notching vs. static stops.
This entire explanation can be explained primarily through the mechanics of the human wrist and hand as it holds a blade. Blades are held specifically so that strength can be applied on a swing or stab, and the same position that allows for you to utilize more strength on the attack would also allow you to utilize more strength on the defense. Of course the fact that purposefully having edge to edge contact could help prevent sliding is also important to note, but ultimately you want to be in a position to use as much speed/strength as possible to deflect or attack. That means having your arms in proper alignment, the blade in proper alignment, and hitting the opponent's blade at the proper angle if necessary. You did a good job of explaining how parrying with an edge could be useful in real combat. Under the right circumstances, catching a blade on the edge could be useful.
SKALLAGRIM! I love both you and John Clements lmao, its fun to listen to informational things like this! And fun to watch how fired up John Clements gets, you both have great knowledge to share and all of it helps me improve my own HEMA skills!
We need more bronze age content, my favorite swords. And maybe a few videos on obsidian and weapons with wooden cores those are really cool. Might just be me though.
Excellent video. This is a question I wondered about too. I used to do mosern sabre fencing. Modern sabre fencing, which is just formalised sabre fencing really, includes a lot of edge to edge contacts. And I can't see how you do that with real sabres without edge-edge contact. My gut feeling is swords were considered consumables, and basic maintenance included refurbishing the edge between skirmishes unil a new blade was needed. In modern conflicts, you can see that considerable amount of weaponey is lost or repaired after combat. I think we are too influenced by legends or novels featuring the hero knight and his faithfull named sword, from Excalibur to Durandall.
Joseph Swetnam in the backsword section of his "The Schoole of the Noble and Worthy Science of Defence" specifically tells you to turn your edge into incoming cuts!
Your channel is a good place for me to see moves I'd like to draw for a fantasy anime I'm wanting to make. Trying to mix fantasy with some realism in combat for medieval type of style.
You should do a video series where you do HEMA practice, but with weird weapons. So like double sword (that shad reviewed) vs a longsword, or maybe 2 strange weapons against each other like double sword vs scythe. I would watch the hell out of weapons that would never normally go against each-other.
Thank you Skall, always enjoy your videos and hope that things are going well for you, your family, and best wishes to the Maritimes from Ontario. When you started talking about parries at 6:30 it reminded me of solo practice (well, that and COVID-19). I don't think it would be outrageous to assume that a significant proportion of HEMA practioners also have training in traditional eastern martial arts and are therefore familiar with the concept of "Kata." In my opinion, equivalents can be found in HEMA such as Meyer's "Devices" and Bolognese swordsmanship "Forms", etc. Would love it if you could do a video on solo practice forms.
7:45 One of the first lessons we were taught in our fencing class: "The edge is stronger then the flat." A good reason to use you edge against the enemy sword.
One thing to point out regarding displacement is that it is not so much a matter of placement of your blade's edge/flat but rather the resulting positioning of your wrist that provides the power to overcome your opponent's blade. If you held your sword in such a fashion that the flat faced forward, you'd get a similar result as if you'd held it normally. It's just a matter of body mechanics: extending your arm like you'd perform a punch is less strenuous than trying to do it sideways (like a Soto Uke for the japanese martial artists). This can easily be experienced using blunts as well. It can be an important point to watch out for, particularly for beginners. One could be tempted to overdo it and use the whole body, so that they're basically facing their opponents blade from the side. While this applies the most force towards the blade it also makes them highly susceptible to "oben abnehmen", grappling, pommel strikes and straight up kicks to the exposed side. It usually happens when they fail to use the strong/weak to their advantage. I wanna point out that I don't mean to say that the edge does nothing, just that the body mechanics are the deciding factor in this case.
Blocking with sharp edge and pushing away is easier becouse the contact place is very small. While blocking and pushing with flat side requires more power as the contact area is bigger and power is spread on bigger surface.
In Summary: + means good - means bad ~ means variable value depending on your intent Flat Parry: +Doesn't damage edge (still can damage flat of blade) -Due to how you hold a sword, your structure is weaker along the flat in most situations ~Tends to allow blades to slip along one another more freely Edge Parry: -Damages the edge (in most cases.. though the damage is minimal if it's against their flat and can be reduced depending on the blade geometry) +Due to how you hold a sword, your structure is stronger when parrying with the edge in most situations ~Tends to grip and bind more reliably, especially in edge to edge parries, because both edges get a notch which tend to stick
It just brings to mind first-day fencing practice. Even though (most) small swords wouldn't have an edge to bind or get damaged, the "1, 2, 3, 4" would be on the "edge" due to biomechanics and the fact that the parry only requires a slight turn of the wrist.
Nice video. I train with Dimicator, so I'm kinda used to sharp blades and tend to forget what an eye opener this was to me back then. Allow me to share some of my experiences and opinions here. First of all, I think it's great that Skal chose to wear protective gear. Especially on the first tryouts. Better to be safe than sorry. The second thing I noticed, was how severe the blade damage was, compared to what I am used to. I would guess, that the blades are made of relative mild steel. (Skal, in case you get around to reading this, could you maybe give your opinion on this? It is pretty impossible to judge such details only from video) This wouldn't be unusual for medieval blades and softer blades are WAY easier to resharpen than harder blades. We also noticed the effects of grinding out the nicks in the blades. Although we rearly have any severe nicks anymore. But it is still noticeable. Another contributing reason could be, that both fencers use quite a lot of force. This is of course great to get a feeling for the various binding sensations. But it also gives out a lot of pressure signals, that can be exploited. We usually judge the quality of our bind by three factors. The first and most important is who is on top and who is below. The one on top having both the biomechanical, as well as the gravity advantage on his side. The second factor is very well shown by this experiment. The edge is stronger than the flat. If both fencers apply the same amount of force, the one with his edge on his opponents flat will always be stronger. The third doesn't need much explaining. Strong against weak. Simple leverage. You can play around with these mechanics to with blunt sword. It is a bit more difficult, but especially when you use a lot more pressure than necessary, you can create a similar binding sensation too. Just make sure to wear protective gear. As soon as the sliding begins, there is quite a lot of energy in the blades. With practice one can learn to recognize whether a situation is "winnable" or if one should yield or disengage to seek a new bind. Just my two cents on the matter.
When I did HEMA I did a lot of parries into Glima and just used my size as an advantage. That was of course if I had to use a broad sword. If I used my spear which is what I primarily use I do alot of deflecting and lunging.
Interesting point, in Bellegarth, a two handed weapon weilder often uses this sort of hanging "oh shit" guard over the back/shoulder to cover as you did. It's almost an instinctive movement when you've overcommitted your body in one direction and need quick cover to allow you to part on a different angle and disengage a bit so you are again within your most effective range.
Both Chinese and Filipino sword fighting feature defensive moves with the edge and flat of whatever sword they’re training with. So yeah, it depends. One of my instructors insisted on never blocking with the edge or even touching your own blade with your body. But then he would teach techniques that did exactly that...never say never.
You are even in sparring. We do it with some kind of blunts (flexible like feders but technically...) and are fully aware which techniques are bad for our expensive swords. Still you just apply the technique that is best.
@@user-ul6bm8pt2y people who don't spar also often don't know that you can use a blunt sword and all the padding you can realistically move in and getting hit is still gonna suck.
@@windhelmguard5295 I have very fond memories of mask only fridays (with wooden wasters)! Edit: we had hand protection too, I'd rather have it and no mask than mask and no hand protection.
@@windhelmguard5295 Sure, if the people in full protective we watch on youtube would fight recklessly they would get injured immediately. This leads to quite some motivation to defend effectively.
Something I never hear anyone talk about in this debate is the fact that if you go in for a strike with edge 1st if it is parried by anything metal it is going to roll the edge No matter what . And in combat with the forces involved it is very likely to cause chipping Even if your opponent parries with the flat of his blade. By that logic avoiding parries with the edge of your blade makes as much sense as not attacking with the edge of your blade. And on top of all of that people tend to forget that in a moment where someone is chopping down at your head and your life is in danger I've doubt very seriously that anyone was altogether that concerned with how they parried.
Small anecdote: At the last HEMA tournament I went to there was a guy in a longsword match who kept blocking with the flat in a thumb grip. His opponent started hitting harder and not only did he break through his defense but he bent the guys feder about 45 degrees at the base where the tang starts. My point here is that the blade is a lot weaker when you hit it from the side becasue it’s thinner in that direction. Flat-of-my-strong supporters will say they do it to preserve the sword, but blocking that way can be just as hard on the blade. Not saying either way is the only way, just pointing out that they both can cause damage to the sword.
How to parry?
Fast.
No.
Smooth.
Lmao
Wait for flash on scren
**Aggressive right clicking intensifies**
Mash L1
I always thought it was fairly obvious that you'd rather have your opponent's blade bite into your blade's edge than your skin.
Depends on your skin and your blade's price.
Well if your Skin is made out of Steel...
@@thepriestpucci4988 depends if its a hf blade
"Oh blimey! My sword is going to get dull if I would parry like this. Guess I'll rather die!"
Legit thought process of every kobudo practitioner I've ever met. I kinda get it, after all "the path of samurai is based around seeking death", Tsunetomo Yamamoto "Something with leaves I don't remember the proper title sorry"
The opposite extreme that people bring up: "you should never ever do anything else than edge parries, because putting huge nicks in your blade it is the only way ever to possibly protect yourself!" So yeah...
@@Sk0lzky yea, traditionalist are so annoying when it comes to subjects like binding and parrying with the edge. There are alot of chipped swords in museum as proof yet they still denying it
@@Maciliachris To be honest I have never heard that argument, but I don't really spend my time arguing about these things.
@@EnraiChannel I'm not exaclty sure which people or spheres of influence bring that up because it was mostly on forums, but I have. A lot.
I'm glad that Skallagrimm made this great video showing that different needs bring different usage of the sword blade :-)
Glad to see the protective gear even with the deliberate slow sparring. Setting a great example skall.
One could still easily misstep or slip
@@Seelenschmiede So would you rather him not wear any protective gear at all? LOL
Given that they’re explicitly testing with sharp blades, it’s kind of a no-brainer.
@@shawnwolf5961 it seems like he was explaining why it's useful to ware the protection even though they are being slow
@@shawnwolf5961 my point was a point for the exact opposite. For me it was a nobrainer to wear gear.
the "Oh shit-Parry" is common on blocking arrows with your sword.
Like in star wars? 😃
When I'm shot at... I just flourish.
@@kamespinosarojas9225 its actually possible to deflect arrows with swords, its just a matter of concentration
@@adude8216 maybe more dificult with multiple archers, the helmet youre wearing and your opposing footsoldiers engaging you in a melee. Guess its a matter of context. Perhaps a single man comes across a hunter who chooses to rob him. In that senario i could see a sword blocking an arrow
@@jonb4387 for sure
Short answer: parry to keep yourself alive
It looks perfect for a good epitaph on a gravestone:
Here lies Knight X with his perfect sword.
He always followed the rule "Never parry with the edge."
He died in his first duel.
I'd rather die and be put in the ground with my sword full of edge damage from my many battles
Ha
@@thisaccountisntreal107 Nah, just fix the sword, or make another. Or just steal the swords of your enemies, and melt them down into more swords.
"You don't fight with honor (formal)! ...He did (dead guy)."
@@gabevietor3685
Knight: Wales up, goes to Shelf, opens Shelf with a 100 swords inside just in case one breakes.
How to parry?
Successfuly
And when you hear the "thum"-noise: You riposte and run your opponent through. :)
@Leon Lopez Deus Vult intensifies
Hold right click, obviously
I just woke up, still a bit dazed and I misread the title "How to Party with a Sword - Edge or flat?" now that'd be an interesting topic.
Straight edge parties are lousy.
Flat parties are not a good idea during COVID-19, but in ordinary times they’re fine.
So... the flat, except maybe in a pandemic.
@@Justanotherconsumer I prefer edgy parties myself
@@CapitanCarter I suppose if you have curved swords. Curved swords.
Never realized that edge-to-edge contact would result in a stronger bind between the blades! Very interesting!
Only work with sharp sword tho, it's very hard to do binding with practice sword
I actually had to test this with two knives. I'm from rural Finland so owning a knife (the one used while camping, not a kitchen knife) is pretty basic stuff
I think this is in Roland Warzecha's original video: ua-cam.com/video/dkhpqAGdZPc/v-deo.html
@@jaketheasianguy3307 yep, it's the one good argument for (carefull) practice with sharp swords - the blades do handle surprisingly different to blunt swords (wich do handle different to training weapons made out of kevlar (?) or LARP swords)
@@zypherabe Larp sword made of foam surprisingly good for full contact sparring, not gonna lie. You could check out Shad's video about this topic ( ua-cam.com/video/6AQzolVYynw/v-deo.html ). Of course, nothing could really replicate the feeling of a real sword but it required alot of knowledge and experience
It pretty much just hit me that there’s SO MANY things in historical fighting where you could say “it depends”
Whatever works
Its more like "there's so many things in life" where you could say "it depends." After law school, 99% of legal questions people ask me begin with "it depends," because law takes nuance, much like staying alive in a real life sword fight or any type of martial art.
Well, yes but actually no, it depends if it depends or not. If you understand what you mean.
@Leon Lopez XD
@@MolotovZav Not many things in life are cut and dry. Hell, the Universe itself is near infinitely varied and ever changing.
The only thing that's absolute, and unchanging, is Math. As long as the equations make sense, the process and result will always be exactly the same.
It seems ludicrous to me how people think they should risk their flesh in order to protect their blades
Death by Materialism is a thing, although the material in question generally isn’t strong enough to make a decent weapon.
Armor users tho
@@paulchapman8023 Actually a sadly good point. Look how many people risk death to save their phones in bad situations. Hard to believe and pathetic, but it exists.
15:11 "This is really not an 'either/or' discussion. It's both depending on..."
*Matt Easton senses tingling*
"...the situation."
Somewhere in Surrey there's a man who is now bemused.
Blood for the blood god, skulls got the skull throne, context for the Matt Easton!
@@JurgMudveins You mean to tell me that skeletons have usurped Khorne?
_"What's up, honey? You seem skittish"_
_"I sense a disturbance in the ｃｏｎｔｅｘｔ ."_
Live your life to the fullest and never say "Surrey"
yes the old intro is back!
Speaking from experience, parrying with the flat results in one thing and that's hurt fingers
Maybe you didn't do it correctly, using your thumb to absorb all the force is a very bad idea. You suppose to let the opponent's blade slide off your flat and used it to power the counter cut
That's why the guard is longer at the edge side.
Matt: *Context*
Skall: It *f*cking* depends
"Flat of my strong!" . . . it had to be done. I'll show myself out.
FLATAMASTRANG!
"impoverish the swordsmanship" is a level of eloquence I was not ready before my morning coffee. Well spoken!
Here before 200 views and let me just say, thank you for another detailed and nuanced take on a SUPER prevalent topic in the HEMA community.
When u get to the end of a sword video and one of your faves uploads more sword content
If anyone chops at me, I'm going to block however I can. then I'll worry about edge or flat. I'd probably use the flat whenever I could, but you worry about survival, first.
Intentional use of flat for parry is nonsense. It could happen, but in most situations it is risky. Old masters said "edge breaks flat" coz there is more power in it as it is shown in the video. You can hit your opponent in true times, so you can even avoid blade contact completely, but "trying to use flat whenever I could" is simply wrong mindset. In 99% situations you would not have time for making decision like that and trying to do so could simply mean you will be too slow or too weak to be succesful.
Engaging, informative, and with solid editing/compositing on top of everything. Brilliant video, dude!
Thanks!
How many times do I need to parry to break their posture? Need help please.
Lol for honor much?
@@lr-skeleboi6546
More like Sekiro xd
@@lr-skeleboi6546 I think he's referencing Sekiro.
He's obviously fighting someone rn, GIVE HIM FRICKIN ADVISE FAST
It depends on the enemy obviously but you can use those perks from the issin style to make your deflects count for more in combat
I love how he tell you straight out the gate what would be a balanced answer, and then gives evidence as to why. Fucking love this balance.
An interesting insight into the possible motivation of the nagel (...side rings, and similar guard developments).
I mean what else did you think these were for?
@@darth_dan8886 I thought they were for better hand protection (and an intermediary step between a simple cross guard and the more complex hilts you see develop in the Late Medieval and Renaissance eras), not for facilitating techniques involving the sliding of an opponent's blade along the flat of one's own.
In real life parry with which ever way you can as being cut sucks.
how does this have 40 likes I felt like I was having a stroke reading this lmao
@@Gabbycatty Same hahaha
I think you meant: Real life: Parry with which ever one you can. Being cut sucks.
Also, using periods matter. It was actually hard to understand, even if you are right. ;)
@@Gabbycatty Because even though it's written funny, it's right.
True
"Should you parry with the edge or flat of the blade?"
"Yes"
"But I mean which one?"
"No"
The Oh-Shit Parry, discovered in a forgotten parchment in a thousand years: HEMA practitioners in 3020: so THAT'S what it's called.
Thank you for using as much historical information as possible, and by following up with real life applications. I can always appreciate research and methodical testing :)
This question was on my mind for quite a bit, thanks for clearing it up!
Thank you, Skallagrim. This was very interesting and insightful.
Always amazed that you put out new and fresh content that is consistently entertaining- thanks for the video!
I'm glad that there's such a big historical arms and armor community on UA-cam. Especially as a fantasy writer who's in no physical condition to learn HEMA myself.
love it when you present sources for your videos!
I just wanted to tell you because of your channel I’ve changed my character for my drawing from a swordsman into a spread man thanks to you showing just how cool they can be . Thank you so much for showing me the true material arts that Europeans had for seed fighting.
Actually the Bolognese school (Anonimous, Manciolino, Marozzo) explicitly say to parry with the edge of the blade, most of the time with the short edge. It was interesting to see the damage on that rapier, it is consistent with their teaching!
awesome vid, super interesting to see the old swords with edge damage... really shows the intricacies of sword fighting
I like that answer
also, that messer is sooo beautiful
Really top notch (no pun intended) content here - loved the demonstration! Excellent video!
Thanks. :)
Very interesting indeed! Can't wait to parry with my edge!
I love your videos, from the choice in music, to the content and how you talk. They are awesome. I dont watch them enough though. Im gonna make a point to watch or listen to all of your videos.
This debate left me confused for along time. Thank you for giving useful clarification.
While not as "good" as HEMA, when I was part of a stage sword fighting troupe, the argument was to block with the edge or near edge.
We needed our swords to last, and a sword is better at absorbing repeated blows with the thicker cross-section of the edge. Repeated shear stress along the thinner cross-section of the flat was more likely to result in a broken sword.
Would edge damage just indicate that most swords or weapons where considered “combat consumables”? Longevity has its place but in this case the edge is consumed with binding..?
unless you do hard full on edge on edge contact most edge damage could be grinded or smoothed out. keeping the blade very usuable outside of trying to slice through tough cloth after to much wear.
Eventually the blade will need replacement obviously
There's a mid-16th-century account of cavalry breaking multiple swords in the pursuit after a rout. In that case, the fleeing soldiers dropped everything, so it was easy for the cavalry to find another blade after one broke. The text doesn't specific how they broke these swords but does suggest some struck at running infantry who still had their helmets on.
Well... the answer is as usual it depends.
Medieval steel was on average a lot softer than what we are used to have for swords nowadays. But there are also quite a number of examples with pretty good steel.
When we look at the well maintained examples in the European armouries, the traces of use point towards a fencing system that used a lot less force, than what is considered normal in HEMA today.
We see a lot of superficial scratchmarks on the flat of the blades, and many micro-nicks.
Larger nicks are in comparison quite rare, but nothing out of the ordinary either.
I think most people's perception of the energy necessary to deliver a substantial cut or to win a bind is quite skewed.
Based on what I have seen, tried and experienced, I think a sword could last a lifetime under normal use back then.
@@AlexPanther the Icelandic Sagas have multiple cases of folks straightening bent swords under their feet and extra swords being kept handy for if their initial blade was blunted, interestingly. We know, of course, that they are not to be taken as gospel as they are clearly embellished in many cases, but it's telling just how often it's mentioned.
A good rule of thumb is that a sword could probably survive between 1-3 encounters before the blade was irreparably weakened. A lot will depend on the initial geometry of the blade and how the damage occurred. Deflecting blows, for instance, will result in greatly reduced notching vs. static stops.
This kind of videos is so satisfying it hurts
I don't even know why
This entire explanation can be explained primarily through the mechanics of the human wrist and hand as it holds a blade. Blades are held specifically so that strength can be applied on a swing or stab, and the same position that allows for you to utilize more strength on the attack would also allow you to utilize more strength on the defense.
Of course the fact that purposefully having edge to edge contact could help prevent sliding is also important to note, but ultimately you want to be in a position to use as much speed/strength as possible to deflect or attack. That means having your arms in proper alignment, the blade in proper alignment, and hitting the opponent's blade at the proper angle if necessary.
You did a good job of explaining how parrying with an edge could be useful in real combat. Under the right circumstances, catching a blade on the edge could be useful.
SKALLAGRIM! I love both you and John Clements lmao, its fun to listen to informational things like this! And fun to watch how fired up John Clements gets, you both have great knowledge to share and all of it helps me improve my own HEMA skills!
i started laughting like 10s before you said "it depends"
That grappling technique is one of the coolest moves Ive ever seen. Id like to see someone demonstrate it, done cleanly it would look super badass.
Oh no, Skall turned into Matt Easton! Someone be quick before he raids colonial sabres!
Skall does not raid. He goes a viking.
Nice work with the documentary sources, very useful, thanks!
We need more bronze age content, my favorite swords. And maybe a few videos on obsidian and weapons with wooden cores those are really cool. Might just be me though.
This is much more complex than I'd imagined. I'd love to see a full sword fight that demonstrates any different techniques!
By now, you should make a series called "it depends"
A Turtle approved this very helpful video.
Excellent video. This is a question I wondered about too. I used to do mosern sabre fencing. Modern sabre fencing, which is just formalised sabre fencing really, includes a lot of edge to edge contacts. And I can't see how you do that with real sabres without edge-edge contact. My gut feeling is swords were considered consumables, and basic maintenance included refurbishing the edge between skirmishes unil a new blade was needed. In modern conflicts, you can see that considerable amount of weaponey is lost or repaired after combat. I think we are too influenced by legends or novels featuring the hero knight and his faithfull named sword, from Excalibur to Durandall.
Well, Durandal and Excalibur were also explicitly unbreakable.
Joseph Swetnam in the backsword section of his "The Schoole of the Noble and Worthy Science of Defence" specifically tells you to turn your edge into incoming cuts!
Your channel is a good place for me to see moves I'd like to draw for a fantasy anime I'm wanting to make. Trying to mix fantasy with some realism in combat for medieval type of style.
You should do a video series where you do HEMA practice, but with weird weapons. So like double sword (that shad reviewed) vs a longsword, or maybe 2 strange weapons against each other like double sword vs scythe. I would watch the hell out of weapons that would never normally go against each-other.
Totally taking notes for sword fights in my fantasy novels. XD
Explained very well as usual dude 🤙🏻
Very educational for someone who can’t afford to take lessons and participate in the sport 🤙🏻⚔️🛡
That gives a good perspective on how swords were used, damaged, and repaired after fight.
According to ac you parry with r2 and □
Depends on the AC. Valhalla you parry with a properly timed L1. :P
I'm talking about the Original 4 games
Or hold the counter button in the Kenway saga.
Survivalist ye that to
Thank you Skall, always enjoy your videos and hope that things are going well for you, your family, and best wishes to the Maritimes from Ontario.
When you started talking about parries at 6:30 it reminded me of solo practice (well, that and COVID-19). I don't think it would be outrageous to assume that a significant proportion of HEMA practioners also have training in traditional eastern martial arts and are therefore familiar with the concept of "Kata." In my opinion, equivalents can be found in HEMA such as Meyer's "Devices" and Bolognese swordsmanship "Forms", etc.
Would love it if you could do a video on solo practice forms.
7:45 One of the first lessons we were taught in our fencing class: "The edge is stronger then the flat." A good reason to use you edge against the enemy sword.
You should do a crossover Episode with Ian (Gun Jesus) of ForgottenWeapons going over WWI improvized weapons used by trench raiders
Cool and interesting channel. I have always been interested in medieval weapons and just found you. Keep up the good work
One thing to point out regarding displacement is that it is not so much a matter of placement of your blade's edge/flat but rather the resulting positioning of your wrist that provides the power to overcome your opponent's blade. If you held your sword in such a fashion that the flat faced forward, you'd get a similar result as if you'd held it normally. It's just a matter of body mechanics: extending your arm like you'd perform a punch is less strenuous than trying to do it sideways (like a Soto Uke for the japanese martial artists). This can easily be experienced using blunts as well.
It can be an important point to watch out for, particularly for beginners. One could be tempted to overdo it and use the whole body, so that they're basically facing their opponents blade from the side. While this applies the most force towards the blade it also makes them highly susceptible to "oben abnehmen", grappling, pommel strikes and straight up kicks to the exposed side. It usually happens when they fail to use the strong/weak to their advantage.
I wanna point out that I don't mean to say that the edge does nothing, just that the body mechanics are the deciding factor in this case.
Finally, someone is helping me out.
"Ho, ha ha, guard, turn, parry, dodge, spin, ha, thrust"
"No need to join me. I'll join you, Say hello to Friar Duck."
Yoiks and away
7:06 that final counter move blew my mind
I just have to say that you have a good pronunciation of the ach-laud and ich-laud.
Wonderful points! 😥😉
I see what you did there. LOL
How to parry?
No need if they're full of arrows
Ah, a fellow practitioner of the ranged main
Or bullets:)
Or burning in fire! :)
Yeah. I was having similar thoughts. But having some blade skills is important. Never know what kind of fight you'll be in.
@@crazyjoeshorts5256 If enemy dont have gun..ofcourse:)
Blocking with sharp edge and pushing away is easier becouse the contact place is very small. While blocking and pushing with flat side requires more power as the contact area is bigger and power is spread on bigger surface.
In Summary:
+ means good
- means bad
~ means variable value depending on your intent
Flat Parry:
+Doesn't damage edge (still can damage flat of blade)
-Due to how you hold a sword, your structure is weaker along the flat in most situations
~Tends to allow blades to slip along one another more freely
Edge Parry:
-Damages the edge (in most cases.. though the damage is minimal if it's against their flat and can be reduced depending on the blade geometry)
+Due to how you hold a sword, your structure is stronger when parrying with the edge in most situations
~Tends to grip and bind more reliably, especially in edge to edge parries, because both edges get a notch which tend to stick
I was already typing "it depends" when you said it. Lol
This is the content I come here for. More of this and less videogames/tv show reactions.
You are always entertaining and educating
It just brings to mind first-day fencing practice. Even though (most) small swords wouldn't have an edge to bind or get damaged, the "1, 2, 3, 4" would be on the "edge" due to biomechanics and the fact that the parry only requires a slight turn of the wrist.
Anyone else playing Assassin’s Creed Vahalla and were unaware Skallagrim voiced the lead protagonist?? Spot on, sir. You sound just like Eivor!
Always find your vids interesting brother
Nice video.
I train with Dimicator, so I'm kinda used to sharp blades and tend to forget what an eye opener this was to me back then.
Allow me to share some of my experiences and opinions here.
First of all, I think it's great that Skal chose to wear protective gear.
Especially on the first tryouts.
Better to be safe than sorry.
The second thing I noticed, was how severe the blade damage was, compared to what I am used to.
I would guess, that the blades are made of relative mild steel. (Skal, in case you get around to reading this, could you maybe give your opinion on this? It is pretty impossible to judge such details only from video)
This wouldn't be unusual for medieval blades and softer blades are WAY easier to resharpen than harder blades.
We also noticed the effects of grinding out the nicks in the blades.
Although we rearly have any severe nicks anymore. But it is still noticeable.
Another contributing reason could be, that both fencers use quite a lot of force.
This is of course great to get a feeling for the various binding sensations. But it also gives out a lot of pressure signals, that can be exploited.
We usually judge the quality of our bind by three factors.
The first and most important is who is on top and who is below.
The one on top having both the biomechanical, as well as the gravity advantage on his side.
The second factor is very well shown by this experiment.
The edge is stronger than the flat.
If both fencers apply the same amount of force, the one with his edge on his opponents flat will always be stronger.
The third doesn't need much explaining.
Strong against weak. Simple leverage.
You can play around with these mechanics to with blunt sword.
It is a bit more difficult, but especially when you use a lot more pressure than necessary, you can create a similar binding sensation too.
Just make sure to wear protective gear. As soon as the sliding begins, there is quite a lot of energy in the blades.
With practice one can learn to recognize whether a situation is "winnable" or if one should yield or disengage to seek a new bind.
Just my two cents on the matter.
God damn this is one of your best videos! And you made it on my 21 birthday haha Keep up the good work!
Happy birthday!
Holy Moley! I watched one of your videos like 2 years ago. I wish I could eat as well as you, I’m having sleep for dinner
Yes.
The better question: should you attack with the edge, or the flat? According to soviet sport fencers the latter is better xD
@Chris Oli Preferably thrown.
He should make a "it f*cking depends" t-shirt
When I did HEMA I did a lot of parries into Glima and just used my size as an advantage. That was of course if I had to use a broad sword. If I used my spear which is what I primarily use I do alot of deflecting and lunging.
I swear, Skall, as soon as you asked the question and said "Ready for this?" I said it almost with you, "All sides- it's situational."
Looking at this video, it brings to mind the question of how parrying daggers and main gouache's were used.
Interesting point, in Bellegarth, a two handed weapon weilder often uses this sort of hanging "oh shit" guard over the back/shoulder to cover as you did. It's almost an instinctive movement when you've overcommitted your body in one direction and need quick cover to allow you to part on a different angle and disengage a bit so you are again within your most effective range.
Both Chinese and Filipino sword fighting feature defensive moves with the edge and flat of whatever sword they’re training with. So yeah, it depends.
One of my instructors insisted on never blocking with the edge or even touching your own blade with your body. But then he would teach techniques that did exactly that...never say never.
To slide or to bind, that is the question.
Funny thing is, the very first of your videos I've seen was the "why you should always parry with the flat" one :D
13:49 wise words
Never knew there was a debate about parrying or deflecting an opponent's blade
11:10 "That's a lotta damage!" - The flex seal guy.
If I were in the real sword fight, I would probably be most concerned about parrying at all.
You are even in sparring. We do it with some kind of blunts (flexible like feders but technically...) and are fully aware which techniques are bad for our expensive swords. Still you just apply the technique that is best.
@@user-ul6bm8pt2y people who don't spar also often don't know that you can use a blunt sword and all the padding you can realistically move in and getting hit is still gonna suck.
@@windhelmguard5295 I have very fond memories of mask only fridays (with wooden wasters)!
Edit: we had hand protection too, I'd rather have it and no mask than mask and no hand protection.
@@windhelmguard5295 Sure, if the people in full protective we watch on youtube would fight recklessly they would get injured immediately. This leads to quite some motivation to defend effectively.
Something I never hear anyone talk about in this debate is the fact that if you go in for a strike with edge 1st if it is parried by anything metal it is going to roll the edge No matter what . And in combat with the forces involved it is very likely to cause chipping Even if your opponent parries with the flat of his blade. By that logic avoiding parries with the edge of your blade makes as much sense as not attacking with the edge of your blade. And on top of all of that people tend to forget that in a moment where someone is chopping down at your head and your life is in danger I've doubt very seriously that anyone was altogether that concerned with how they parried.
Small anecdote: At the last HEMA tournament I went to there was a guy in a longsword match who kept blocking with the flat in a thumb grip. His opponent started hitting harder and not only did he break through his defense but he bent the guys feder about 45 degrees at the base where the tang starts. My point here is that the blade is a lot weaker when you hit it from the side becasue it’s thinner in that direction. Flat-of-my-strong supporters will say they do it to preserve the sword, but blocking that way can be just as hard on the blade. Not saying either way is the only way, just pointing out that they both can cause damage to the sword.