I’d like to offer an addendum to this video. Thank you all for your comments, and the spirited discussion. I welcome all of your opinions, whether we agree or disagree. 1. Firstly, I should have conveyed my feelings about Troy's vocals more fairly. I said I would be brutally honest, but it's also important to remain factual. For example, the statement "What Troy does is not singing" is not accurate. For that, I apologize. What he does is indeed singing, even if it's not the type of singing that I enjoy personally. 2. Secondly, I recognize that the track re-ordering was unnecessary. It was intended as a fun exercise, an attempt to demonstrate my sense of flow - but ultimately, even if I think the original order of the tracks could be improved, I don’t think that literally re-ordering them added anything useful to the review. 3. Thirdly, I kindly ask you to watch the entire video. I have a lot of positive things to say about this album - probably even more positive than negative. I would bet that you and I feel more similarly about the album than not! Thanks again for watching, and I look forward to discussing more 🤘
I think Human Nature had great mixing because it benefits from the separation between only string quartet + 3-part vocals and full symphonic orchestra in an either/or approach. Regarding the songwriting, it's more of a matter of taste - I love the progressive, fully orchestrated approach; thus I'm in great favour of Yesterwynde and Human Nature, over the chorus-centric straightforward EFMB/Imaginaerum/Century Child. For me they never "meander" too much, I'd like even more of it ha, which is why I love the parts you might wanna trim down lol. P.S. All The Works Of Nature is one of my top favourites. Troy's vocals - I know I'm in the minority lol, I just love his timbre and folklore style delivery. He brings the emotional tremors that just resonate with me deeply. I love his vocals on Auri, on Shoemaker, Harvest... I don't find myself missing Marco that much, don't really need 2 powerhouses belting duets. Vocals are super subjective though... Why do people love Johnny Cash's cover of Hurt? Why do some people hate the athletic acrobatics of Whitney Houston? As for the mixing... I listen to a lot of blackgaze where the vocals are drawn to the background so I'm super used to it. Once you're an Alcest fan you no longer need vocally dominant catchy choruses in most songs lol. Interesting reorder of the tracklist lol. I can't disagree more on it lol. I see The Weave as the moment where the Ring is destroyed in the fires of Mount Doom - you don't give away the climax just so to "open with a bang". 😅
You're absolutely right in that it's all a matter of taste, but of course it's still fun to discuss these things :) You raise a good point regarding Human Nature in that it benefited from having less elements for the mixing, although I'd point out Dark Passion Play and Imaginaerum as good examples of Nightwish managing enormous arrangements well in a mix. Johnny and Whitney are true vocalists in their respective styles. I'll die on the hill that Troy is not comparable to them, but I'll hand it to you that I can't argue against the subjectivity of it. Thanks for watching and sharing your thoughts 👍
@@ohacade408 all good points you have as well. Btw I wasn't trying to compare Troy to any vocalists who have cemented a rightful legacy. He's not a expert vocalist by any means. I guess I may just be less bothered by his vocal skill lol. I guess also being a prog fan, I'm used to the vocals being the least spectacular aspect of prog bands lol. When it comes Nightwish I tend to pay the most attention to the orchestration - I learned to play the keyboard by practicing NW songs and making orchestral covers. I've probably listened to the instrumental version of Dark Passion Play more than any NW album. Yes it sounds fantastic, but the orchestra is definitely pulled back a bit in the "vocals & metal" moments, focusing on intros/outros/interludes. Here instead the orchestra is the lifeblood that flows throughout the songs.
@@ohacade408 Btw I've watched your full-length reaction to the album and lyrical review as well. Thanks for all the work you've put into Yesterwynde! One thing I definitely 100% agree with you on: for the next NW album I'm determined not to check out any singles before the album release. It's a promise I have never been able to keep even once because I can't help myself with their teasers and promotions, every single time! Lmao
@@ImmortalDecember Thanks for watching all of my Yesterwynde content! It’s so much fun to experience this new album with other fans. Yeah, I don’t even know for sure if I’ll be able to stop myself from hearing at least one single, but I’m going to make a solid attempt. I think it’ll be worth it. It was awesome having the second two singles be a part of my first listen in this case.
All in all, I've been raised on Nightwish for 20 years, most important band of my life - saved my life a few times, wouldn't have my music taste without them. Great to hear insights and have discussions with other musicians who have disected their music continuously.
Fun fact: your opinions abt Troy as a vocalist resonate with Floor's. EDIT: Ah you already know. I have the Aardschok mag here. Gonna check that translation now. ""If it were up to me, Troy might've been singing a bit less on the new album". And about how Tuomas went behind Floor's back with the vocal parts of "Sway": "For this track we didn't sing the vocal parts together [Floor & Troy]. When I heard it back later, all vocal parts were doubled all of a sudden. Tuomas' choice, and that's about all I'm willing to say about it. I resign myself to this ..//.. I wouldn't have done it this way. I think the track actually didn't quite benefit from the harmonies with Troy, but then again it's also kinda unique". - Floor Jansen (Aardschok Metal Magazine, Aug/Sept edition) From an interview with Tuomas, about their previous album: "I remember when the singers [Floor & Marko] brought up the fact that the song melodies and lyrics are made by a person who can't really sing at all and that it adds a special spice to Nightwish's sound ..//.. I often hear in my head exactly how these melodies go, in what voice they are sung, and how the lyrics unfold. Then when I present them to the singers, they tell me that you can't sing that way! There are too many syllables, too many "s" letters and so on. Up to a certain limit, I always try to challenge them to at least try." This has been sold tt fans as "challenging Floor".
Thanks for bringing these specific quotes to light. If this translation is accurate, she's made her frustration even more apparent than I originally thought. I completely understand her position, especially considering that many of the subtleties of her performance now go unnoticed due to Troy's doubling.
@@ohacade408 No biggie, she just sent a clear signal to Tuomas (communication, especially when she's busy mothering / marking her vocal territory). She still held back though, but I guess you have to be a Dutchie to "read between the lines". Here's another one re: Troy - "He can sing quite decently, but that's about it as far as I'm concerned." In Dutch: "Hij zingt heel aardig, maar daar hebben we het wat mij betreft wel mee gehad." This is what we Dutchies say about a somewhat accomplished amateur.
I have also wondered whether Tuomas has allowed himself to become distracted by Floor's ability. Without Floor, Tuomas would not have considered including such fast, intricate lyrics. Yes, Floor is phenomenal and almost no-one could sing it, but that doesn't mean that that is what Floor does best, nor what Nightwish does best.
Come on Troy barely sings in the album... I love the contrast between killer machine Floor's vocals followed by the welcoming rest of just a humble human beeing singing
I would still regard this album as my favourite overall and would give it 9.5. But there is some unease with it and I think it is because I haven't connected with some of the songs like I did with all of the last two albums (well, all but Harvest). I wanted to disagree with some of your points but I think they are well reasoned and fair. I'll give your suggested order a shot but I would still start with Yesterwynde. Cheers.
I see nightwish as a poet with a band. And that makes it all make sense to me. Apart from the mix, that's just a spoof in their process. Some communication breakdown.
Floor had just delivered her youngest daughter 6 weeks prior to recording this album. So she wasn't in the best conditions to record the album and wasn't as involved in the production. There's an interview she says she was singing her parts as best as she could and leaving it to the guys to work on it. So I guess that played a major role on how the vocals were mixed. It's a pretty good album with good songs, but I agree with you, the mixing is average. I'm really curious to listen to these songs live when nightwish come back from hiatus, I bet they will sound awesome.
Ouch, the dense mix has affected your tinnitus! Tuomas mixing elements of other songs, his déjà vu moments, is done a bit better than Ai... The childrens choir in "The Day of..." "We don't need no edukayshun" :) Troy in "Sway" and at the end of the album, sounded a bit like Leonard Cohen in "Suzanne"! Floor said she would never do "French Rap", I think Tuomas is taking the mick. Can't get enough of Emppu... "Someting whispered" but, yes it was a little bit longer than expected. Spin away, spin away!
I am not on all of your opinions. Themost difference might be that I absolutely enjoy Troy in his parts. For me that is just a personal choice probably - I am a Troy-Fan -. Also the sorting is ok like it was done by Tuomas. My rating over all is 9.5 and Album of the year. Lanternlight my song of the year by far and up in my Nightwish top3. And I am a fan since 1998, now 64 years old.
I will say i prefer Nightwish track listing, it makes no sense ti start with the weave?? Yesterwynde start out with a island that need a ship, then we get the ship sailing on 2nd track, and so on, it makes no sense to weave and unweave stuff from the start?? you do not like this album, your rating say it.. i think its a masterpiece.. so please let us who enjoy this music listen to it, then you stay away, ok..
He already addressed it - he prefers audio based ordering, not based on story/lyrics. And I agree with him. I did my own reordering of the album as well, and it's uncanny how similar it is to his own reordering. The songs might individually be amazing, but the album feels quite disjointed. Songs should flow naturally into each other.
There have been many many successful bands throughout the world who actually do not have professional singers and some have singers that actually don’t sing really well, but they’re able to get away with it
This is definitely true. However, when all of the instrumentation is so gloriously performed, like in Nightwish, a poor singer sounds out of place. That said, I respect that not everyone feels the way I do.
IMO you're totally right with everything, except for Troy singing in Laternlight. I love that and I don't think it's necessary to re-order the songs. This is the bands descion!
It really reminds me of the second part of the Song "Karolines Bön" or "The carolean's prayers" for the english folks. It might the song you're thinking of.
Nothing wrong with reordering songs to the way you like, that's why there is that function in CD players for example. Mind you, Tuomas did say that the album should be preferably listened in order, from beginning to end. Have you figured out the reason to that?
So Mozart had too many notes, while Metal Mozart has too many words?😄 But nice to hear some profound criticism, although I do not agree on all, like his voice in Lanternlight sounds very supporting and appropriate to me (but I'm more a listener than a singer: compared to my singing a crow sounds like Maria Callas).
Considering that this video has only 2,1T views in 2 days says to me that it didn't resonate with people but maybe that wasn't the goal either.Personally I find these reviews arrogant and useless by all the "experts" being "honest" about their opinions and criticizing other people's work. They are welcome to do it better if they can. Nah, I don't need you to rain on my parade and I think it's petty if a person immediately wants to find flaws and complaints about the whole album, when after YEARS of waiting most fans are just happy to finally have it. And i think it's brilliant album.But I'm just a simple person.I don't have it in me to criticize another people's efforts especially when no one asked.If I don't like something I leave it be. I don't go tell those band's/singers fans that they should have done this and that better FOR ME. 😏 You say you have some positive points about it, too? It doesn't matter, when the feeling that is left is negative about this review.Who watches these reviews anyway? Nightwish fans.Except maybe they didn't this time. It's a pretty basic thing that fans are fans because they like the music and if they can't relate to the content posted, they're not here. And that happened this time.
Thanks for sharing this point of view. Believe it or not, I actually relate to it somewhat. If I’m a huge fan of something, and someone else criticizes it, I also get that feeling of my parade being rained on. That said, I know that if I click on a video with a thumbnail like this one, I should be open to hearing criticisms. If you find reviews arrogant and useless that’s also fine but I wonder if that counts for all reviews, or just the ones you disagree with. As for the video performance - 2.2k views in two days is actually pretty good for a small channel reviewing a niche band, and thankfully the comments show that my thoughts do resonate with some.
Hmmm. If these are your personal comments pls use your own name in the header, not composer. Your composing achievements are not at all on the level of Tuomas so it is ridiculous that you give advice on song lengts, mixing, lyrics. For instance Tuomas said that song length comes from what the story behind needs. So if he uses only Floors long vocals the 8,5 min song will then be 14 minutes and sound tedious. Grand compositions for an orchestra do have parts with stronger volume and lower volume depending on what mood or lyrics is presented. In my opinion this is the case in YW album and especially heard when using Dolby atmos. No need to have lead vocals on highest pitch all the time, when lower in the mix the tone of the vocals is used. And these are my personal opinions. Otherwise ok review. Yesterwynde is a masterpiece.
Respectfully, I don't need to be as established a composer as Tuomas in order to be considered a composer, or express thoughts on the craft. A link to my own work is in the description, and I put it there because it's important to also have my own work displayed for all to critique if they so wish. The title to this video is accurate. I know a thing or two about composition. It doesn't make my opinion more valid, but it does mean that I'm approaching the album as a musician and can explain my points in such terms.
Well, an old saying is valid here. "who lifts the dogs tail but the dog itself" Before writing my comment I checked your Valcata. Based on that I would call you a Songwriter not a Composer. Of course we might understand the terminology differently, to me a composer title requires a lot of recognitions and studies and experience. When you criticize this much YW under that title you clearly put yourself to the same level than Tuomas. But I wish you all the best for your Ayreon type of career. Music business is very hard nowadays. Hard Rock and Metal fans are harsh, strict and straight-talking.
@@joukoilvonen68 It’s not worth getting into some petty distinction between songwriting and composing. If my review were entirely positive, this would not have been made a talking point. Since you disliked some of the things I said, you bring my expertise into question, rather than focusing on the subject at hand. If you have a different opinion, I’m here to listen, but I enourage relevant discussion. I’m also no stranger to the straight-talking criticism of metal fans (both positive and negative). I myself am one, and I do not put myself on the same level as Tuomas, as I tried to demonstrate by referring to myself as a fan repeatedly. All that said I do appreciate you leaving a comment and your well wishes regarding my career.
Yes, this dialog would not have taken place if your title had been Nightwish Fan's Honest Thoughts. Your comments to YW were very similar to what fans are giving. But not similar what professional reviewers (not UA-cam) are giving. UA-cam is so full of reactors, music channels etc. that visitors often check the title when choosing what to look. I f.ex. look always the title. Enough viewpoints from both sides?😅 Have a nice week and Columbus Day.
I respect your work here, and most of the time like what you say in your videos, but as a singer and musician myself, I must express that I think you talked a lot of bullshit concerning Troy's voice. And I think most of my coleagues (if not all of them) would agree with me. Come on, people may like whatever they like (and I'm not a big fan of Troy either), but saying that it it NOT SINGING is simply not true. It may be bad singing for some, but it is definetly singing. Otherwise what you are doing is simply invalidating the work of plenty of masterful singers who do not necessarily rely on big and grandiose with their voice (and I'm not saying Troy is one of them). Saying that it is not singing because "he's not engaging his diaphragm and his throat isn't totally relaxed, whereas there's a lot of air coming out" simply shows a misconception both on how our muscles work when we sing and on how our body ''''''should''''' behave for it to be considered ''''''proper singing''''''. And I say this based on vocal science and pedagogy, not only on my opinion. This is the kind of misconception that we have to deal all the time as singing teachers and the reason for a lot of what people tend mostly to do the wrong way and have problems trying to sing. "Lacking power and emotion" is an opinion, and not something one can say to ''''validate'''' something as singing or not. There are lots of great singers that rely mainly on delicate, raw and airy soundind voices in many stiles and different cultures around the world, and that isn't necessarily any easier than a high belt to do well. And 'airier' singing is an absolute important step in bulting a fuller sound also. Music is art, art is expression, airier and fuller sounds express diferent things and '''''talking on pitch'''''' as you said, IS ALSO SINGING. And often much more dificult than what it may seem for beginners. Brazilian bossa-nova, samba and folk, and lots of other absolutely rich and important stiles of music from around the world are there to prove that and more. :)
Sure, we can say that what he does is technically singing, but you also say that what he does is not even to your own liking. "Even if it's bad singing, it's still singing". Well, fair enough, but it seems at this point, we are talking semantics. Whether what he does is "not" singing, or "bad" singing, it doesn't really change the point I was making. In fact you seem to feel the same way about his voice, and I gather your problem with my assessment is simply how I worded it, and my generalization of vocal technique? I'm a composer first and foremost, but I have taken classical vocal training, so I'm not totally uninformed. You have to understand that I didn't have time to dedicate to the countless different vocal techniques studied throughout the world in this video. I thought my technical summary of his lack of good technique was sufficient as a brief overview for the sake of this review - but if it's a misconception, feel free to clarify what it is that actually makes his singing bad, if it's not what I described. Again though, I don't know what use that discussion is, if essentially we are in agreement about the value he adds to the music.
@@ohacade408 Well, I was not talking about me. :) I'm not a big fan of his, yes. But I particularly don't think he is a bad singer. I think he fits pretty well in most of the parts he is in this album. He is not a phenomenal singer, but he is pretty decent for the purpose he is used. I really love Sway, specially the dissonant chords in the bridge, and the way his voice is used there, alongside Floor's. And I can say the same about Hiraeth and Lanternlight. Aestetically, it fits the mood of what they're trying to create. But the point is not what I think or what you think. What bothers me is that by saying that it is not singing you are reducing singing, which is a whole art form, to the type of singing that you like. :) Say that you don't like it, because that's the truth, but don't say that it is not singing, because that's not the case. Saying it only feeds prejudices towards differents kinds of musical expression - since you are a trained musician and you have an audience of people from many different backgrounds. Well, it's just a different type of singing. Some will like it, some won't, that's ok, but saying it is not singing may sound a bit rude and pretentious. For me it feels a bit like Adorno saying that jazz is not art because he doesn't like it. And by everything the band says, it is pretty clear that Troy singing does not come from him (like you suggested), but mostly from Tuomas himself and the other members of the band. For example, it was revealed in an interview that Troy was never intented to sing the final part for Perfume of the Timeless. But at rehearsal Floor wasn't present, and he had to sing all the vocal lines for reference, and hearing him sing the final part, the other band members liked it so much that they asked him to do so on the album. Other parts, however, were always intended to be his.
I understand your point. Anyone can be a singer, and it’s an art form that comes in all forms of expression. Technically this is true. I accept your point whole-heartedly. Some people even refer to metal screaming/harsh vocals as “singing”, and I have no real objection to this. My issue is, I don’t find it to be a useful point in this particular case, if I’m taking it upon myself to give an honest review of this album and not mince my words. Floor is a singer who has dedicated her entire life to studying the art form and its various nuances/techniques. In my view, allowing Troy to sing, or what I would describe as talking on pitch (in many cases, off pitch), over an otherwise glorious instrumental when a lifetime of vocal knowledge is standing right there, is a true reduction of the art form, and not acceptable. True, that is just my opinion, but wouldn’t you agree that’s a reasonable conclusion to make? As for him singing in Perfume of the Timeless - I’m happy for him that the band members made that call, but it would be nice if the actual professional singer this was intended for had a say in the matter. Would she have approved? Considering her recent comments, I doubt it. I hope you see where I’m coming from.
@@ohacade408My only objection in what I wrote was the way you expressed your dislike of Troy’s singing. It may not seem a useful point to you for this matter, but it is something that touches my area of speciality and I felt like sharing my discomfort. Not to defend Troy specifically, but to defend softer and ‘airier’ singing. Now, I do agree that Floor is the professional singer here, and she must always be the center piece vocally - which I think she is in this album. There is no Harvest here, thank God. That was too much Troy. That’s why I’m not bothered at all by him here. In this new album his voice is there mainly for mood setting and contrast, and I think it works well for this sake. So it doesn’t bother me, particularly. But, of course, I find it very strange what Floor said about his voice on this record, and it makes us wander about how this kind of decision is taken within the band. Because I do feel like she should know this kind of thing in advance, that’s for sure. In this sense, I agree with you. But that’s something we will probably be left wandering. 😅
@@victorbaccili I've been considering your concerns over this part of the video. I think it's a good point, and I should have been more careful with my wording. I added it to the addendum to help clarify any misconceptions. Thank you ♥
I’d like to offer an addendum to this video. Thank you all for your comments, and the spirited discussion. I welcome all of your opinions, whether we agree or disagree.
1. Firstly, I should have conveyed my feelings about Troy's vocals more fairly. I said I would be brutally honest, but it's also important to remain factual. For example, the statement "What Troy does is not singing" is not accurate. For that, I apologize. What he does is indeed singing, even if it's not the type of singing that I enjoy personally.
2. Secondly, I recognize that the track re-ordering was unnecessary. It was intended as a fun exercise, an attempt to demonstrate my sense of flow - but ultimately, even if I think the original order of the tracks could be improved, I don’t think that literally re-ordering them added anything useful to the review.
3. Thirdly, I kindly ask you to watch the entire video. I have a lot of positive things to say about this album - probably even more positive than negative. I would bet that you and I feel more similarly about the album than not!
Thanks again for watching, and I look forward to discussing more 🤘
Nice and sincere reaction👍 That's how we like to hear it straight out. Thank you!
I think Human Nature had great mixing because it benefits from the separation between only string quartet + 3-part vocals and full symphonic orchestra in an either/or approach. Regarding the songwriting, it's more of a matter of taste - I love the progressive, fully orchestrated approach; thus I'm in great favour of Yesterwynde and Human Nature, over the chorus-centric straightforward EFMB/Imaginaerum/Century Child. For me they never "meander" too much, I'd like even more of it ha, which is why I love the parts you might wanna trim down lol. P.S. All The Works Of Nature is one of my top favourites.
Troy's vocals - I know I'm in the minority lol, I just love his timbre and folklore style delivery. He brings the emotional tremors that just resonate with me deeply. I love his vocals on Auri, on Shoemaker, Harvest... I don't find myself missing Marco that much, don't really need 2 powerhouses belting duets. Vocals are super subjective though... Why do people love Johnny Cash's cover of Hurt? Why do some people hate the athletic acrobatics of Whitney Houston?
As for the mixing... I listen to a lot of blackgaze where the vocals are drawn to the background so I'm super used to it. Once you're an Alcest fan you no longer need vocally dominant catchy choruses in most songs lol.
Interesting reorder of the tracklist lol. I can't disagree more on it lol. I see The Weave as the moment where the Ring is destroyed in the fires of Mount Doom - you don't give away the climax just so to "open with a bang". 😅
You're absolutely right in that it's all a matter of taste, but of course it's still fun to discuss these things :)
You raise a good point regarding Human Nature in that it benefited from having less elements for the mixing, although I'd point out Dark Passion Play and Imaginaerum as good examples of Nightwish managing enormous arrangements well in a mix.
Johnny and Whitney are true vocalists in their respective styles. I'll die on the hill that Troy is not comparable to them, but I'll hand it to you that I can't argue against the subjectivity of it. Thanks for watching and sharing your thoughts 👍
@@ohacade408 all good points you have as well. Btw I wasn't trying to compare Troy to any vocalists who have cemented a rightful legacy. He's not a expert vocalist by any means. I guess I may just be less bothered by his vocal skill lol. I guess also being a prog fan, I'm used to the vocals being the least spectacular aspect of prog bands lol. When it comes Nightwish I tend to pay the most attention to the orchestration - I learned to play the keyboard by practicing NW songs and making orchestral covers. I've probably listened to the instrumental version of Dark Passion Play more than any NW album. Yes it sounds fantastic, but the orchestra is definitely pulled back a bit in the "vocals & metal" moments, focusing on intros/outros/interludes. Here instead the orchestra is the lifeblood that flows throughout the songs.
@@ohacade408 Btw I've watched your full-length reaction to the album and lyrical review as well. Thanks for all the work you've put into Yesterwynde! One thing I definitely 100% agree with you on: for the next NW album I'm determined not to check out any singles before the album release. It's a promise I have never been able to keep even once because I can't help myself with their teasers and promotions, every single time! Lmao
@@ImmortalDecember Thanks for watching all of my Yesterwynde content! It’s so much fun to experience this new album with other fans. Yeah, I don’t even know for sure if I’ll be able to stop myself from hearing at least one single, but I’m going to make a solid attempt. I think it’ll be worth it. It was awesome having the second two singles be a part of my first listen in this case.
Thank you. I did not know about your channel before and was pleasantly surprised by the quality of your review.
All in all, I've been raised on Nightwish for 20 years, most important band of my life - saved my life a few times, wouldn't have my music taste without them. Great to hear insights and have discussions with other musicians who have disected their music continuously.
Wonderful stirring music, gets the body to release endorphines, giving pain relief.
Fun fact: your opinions abt Troy as a vocalist resonate with Floor's. EDIT: Ah you already know. I have the Aardschok mag here. Gonna check that translation now.
""If it were up to me, Troy might've been singing a bit less on the new album".
And about how Tuomas went behind Floor's back with the vocal parts of "Sway":
"For this track we didn't sing the vocal parts together [Floor & Troy]. When I heard it back later, all vocal parts were doubled all of a sudden. Tuomas' choice, and that's about all I'm willing to say about it. I resign myself to this ..//.. I wouldn't have done it this way. I think the track actually didn't quite benefit from the harmonies with Troy, but then again it's also kinda unique". - Floor Jansen (Aardschok Metal Magazine, Aug/Sept edition)
From an interview with Tuomas, about their previous album:
"I remember when the singers [Floor & Marko] brought up the fact that the song melodies and lyrics are made by a person who can't really sing at all and that it adds a special spice to Nightwish's sound ..//.. I often hear in my head exactly how these melodies go, in what voice they are sung, and how the lyrics unfold. Then when I present them to the singers, they tell me that you can't sing that way! There are too many syllables, too many "s" letters and so on. Up to a certain limit, I always try to challenge them to at least try."
This has been sold tt fans as "challenging Floor".
Thanks for bringing these specific quotes to light. If this translation is accurate, she's made her frustration even more apparent than I originally thought. I completely understand her position, especially considering that many of the subtleties of her performance now go unnoticed due to Troy's doubling.
@@ohacade408 No biggie, she just sent a clear signal to Tuomas (communication, especially when she's busy mothering / marking her vocal territory). She still held back though, but I guess you have to be a Dutchie to "read between the lines".
Here's another one re: Troy - "He can sing quite decently, but that's about it as far as I'm concerned."
In Dutch: "Hij zingt heel aardig, maar daar hebben we het wat mij betreft wel mee gehad." This is what we Dutchies say about a somewhat accomplished amateur.
I have also wondered whether Tuomas has allowed himself to become distracted by Floor's ability. Without Floor, Tuomas would not have considered including such fast, intricate lyrics. Yes, Floor is phenomenal and almost no-one could sing it, but that doesn't mean that that is what Floor does best, nor what Nightwish does best.
Come on Troy barely sings in the album... I love the contrast between killer machine Floor's vocals followed by the welcoming rest of just a humble human beeing singing
I would still regard this album as my favourite overall and would give it 9.5. But there is some unease with it and I think it is because I haven't connected with some of the songs like I did with all of the last two albums (well, all but Harvest). I wanted to disagree with some of your points but I think they are well reasoned and fair. I'll give your suggested order a shot but I would still start with Yesterwynde. Cheers.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts! Yes, it's totally fine if we disagree here and there but I'm glad you found the review fair overall.
I see nightwish as a poet with a band. And that makes it all make sense to me. Apart from the mix, that's just a spoof in their process. Some communication breakdown.
Floor had just delivered her youngest daughter 6 weeks prior to recording this album. So she wasn't in the best conditions to record the album and wasn't as involved in the production. There's an interview she says she was singing her parts as best as she could and leaving it to the guys to work on it. So I guess that played a major role on how the vocals were mixed.
It's a pretty good album with good songs, but I agree with you, the mixing is average. I'm really curious to listen to these songs live when nightwish come back from hiatus, I bet they will sound awesome.
That is not fair towards Floor. They mixed her vocals over too much.
Sway is beautiful as it has turned out, in my opinion Tuomas is never wrong😊
Ouch, the dense mix has affected your tinnitus!
Tuomas mixing elements of other songs, his déjà vu moments, is done a bit better than Ai...
The childrens choir in "The Day of..." "We don't need no edukayshun" :)
Troy in "Sway" and at the end of the album, sounded a bit like Leonard Cohen in "Suzanne"!
Floor said she would never do "French Rap", I think Tuomas is taking the mick.
Can't get enough of Emppu... "Someting whispered" but, yes it was a little bit longer than expected.
Spin away, spin away!
I agree with your comments to Troy,,he is not a professional singer.
I am not on all of your opinions. Themost difference might be that I absolutely enjoy Troy in his parts. For me that is just a personal choice probably - I am a Troy-Fan -. Also the sorting is ok like it was done by Tuomas. My rating over all is 9.5 and Album of the year. Lanternlight my song of the year by far and up in my Nightwish top3. And I am a fan since 1998, now 64 years old.
I will say i prefer Nightwish track listing, it makes no sense ti start with the weave?? Yesterwynde start out with a island that need a ship, then we get the ship sailing on 2nd track, and so on, it makes no sense to weave and unweave stuff from the start??
you do not like this album, your rating say it.. i think its a masterpiece..
so please let us who enjoy this music listen to it, then you stay away, ok..
He already addressed it - he prefers audio based ordering, not based on story/lyrics. And I agree with him. I did my own reordering of the album as well, and it's uncanny how similar it is to his own reordering.
The songs might individually be amazing, but the album feels quite disjointed. Songs should flow naturally into each other.
There have been many many successful bands throughout the world who actually do not have professional singers and some have singers that actually don’t sing really well, but they’re able to get away with it
This is definitely true. However, when all of the instrumentation is so gloriously performed, like in Nightwish, a poor singer sounds out of place. That said, I respect that not everyone feels the way I do.
Really interesting to hear your thoughts on the album. To my surprise they line up almost identical with my own.
Wow, people who can’t handle criticism of music they like. Sorry you got comments like that.
Thanks for the support ❤️
IMO you're totally right with everything, except for Troy singing in Laternlight. I love that and I don't think it's necessary to re-order the songs. This is the bands descion!
💯 on point.
The Antikythera Mechanism sounds like Sabaton for me. I even looked for a song by Sabaton because I was sure they recorded one.
Now that you mention it, I can totally hear the Sabaton similarity, especially in the chorus! But I think it's a coincidence.
@@ohacade408Definately a coincidence. Great track by the way.
It really reminds me of the second part of the Song "Karolines Bön" or "The carolean's prayers" for the english folks. It might the song you're thinking of.
The arrogance of this guy "let me reorder the songs" .
Nothing wrong with reordering songs to the way you like, that's why there is that function in CD players for example.
Mind you, Tuomas did say that the album should be preferably listened in order, from beginning to end. Have you figured out the reason to that?
That new order of songs by you is pure nonsense🤣
So Mozart had too many notes, while Metal Mozart has too many words?😄
But nice to hear some profound criticism, although I do not agree on all, like his voice in Lanternlight sounds very supporting and appropriate to me (but I'm more a listener than a singer: compared to my singing a crow sounds like Maria Callas).
I might agree with your opinion on the album more than with any others' reactors/reviewers.
I'm a Nightwish fan but I do not like this album at all,I didn't like the last album either.
Don't try to rank Art. 😎🤘
Considering that this video has only 2,1T views in 2 days says to me that it didn't resonate with people but maybe that wasn't the goal either.Personally I find these reviews arrogant and useless by all the "experts" being "honest" about their opinions and criticizing other people's work. They are welcome to do it better if they can. Nah, I don't need you to rain on my parade and I think it's petty if a person immediately wants to find flaws and complaints about the whole album, when after YEARS of waiting most fans are just happy to finally have it. And i think it's brilliant album.But I'm just a simple person.I don't have it in me to criticize another people's efforts especially when no one asked.If I don't like something I leave it be. I don't go tell those band's/singers fans that they should have done this and that better FOR ME. 😏
You say you have some positive points about it, too? It doesn't matter, when the feeling that is left is negative about this review.Who watches these reviews anyway? Nightwish fans.Except maybe they didn't this time. It's a pretty basic thing that fans are fans because they like the music and if they can't relate to the content posted, they're not here. And that happened this time.
Thanks for sharing this point of view. Believe it or not, I actually relate to it somewhat. If I’m a huge fan of something, and someone else criticizes it, I also get that feeling of my parade being rained on. That said, I know that if I click on a video with a thumbnail like this one, I should be open to hearing criticisms. If you find reviews arrogant and useless that’s also fine but I wonder if that counts for all reviews, or just the ones you disagree with. As for the video performance - 2.2k views in two days is actually pretty good for a small channel reviewing a niche band, and thankfully the comments show that my thoughts do resonate with some.
Album is superb to me and I dont fucking care about other peopole's complains
Nightwish sounds like a soap opera
Asshole 😂
Hmmm. If these are your personal comments pls use your own name in the header, not composer. Your composing achievements are not at all on the level of Tuomas so it is ridiculous that you give advice on song lengts, mixing, lyrics.
For instance Tuomas said that song length comes from what the story behind needs. So if he uses only Floors long vocals the 8,5 min song will then be 14 minutes and sound tedious. Grand compositions for an orchestra do have parts with stronger volume and lower volume depending on what mood or lyrics is presented. In my opinion this is the case in YW album and especially heard when using Dolby atmos. No need to have lead vocals on highest pitch all the time, when lower in the mix the tone of the vocals is used.
And these are my personal opinions.
Otherwise ok review. Yesterwynde is a masterpiece.
Respectfully, I don't need to be as established a composer as Tuomas in order to be considered a composer, or express thoughts on the craft. A link to my own work is in the description, and I put it there because it's important to also have my own work displayed for all to critique if they so wish. The title to this video is accurate. I know a thing or two about composition. It doesn't make my opinion more valid, but it does mean that I'm approaching the album as a musician and can explain my points in such terms.
Well, an old saying is valid here.
"who lifts the dogs tail but the dog itself"
Before writing my comment I checked your Valcata. Based on that I would call you a Songwriter not a Composer.
Of course we might understand the terminology differently, to me a composer title requires a lot of recognitions and studies and experience. When you criticize this much YW under that title you clearly put yourself to the same level than Tuomas.
But I wish you all the best for your Ayreon type of career. Music business is very hard nowadays. Hard Rock and Metal fans are harsh, strict and straight-talking.
@@joukoilvonen68 It’s not worth getting into some petty distinction between songwriting and composing. If my review were entirely positive, this would not have been made a talking point. Since you disliked some of the things I said, you bring my expertise into question, rather than focusing on the subject at hand. If you have a different opinion, I’m here to listen, but I enourage relevant discussion. I’m also no stranger to the straight-talking criticism of metal fans (both positive and negative). I myself am one, and I do not put myself on the same level as Tuomas, as I tried to demonstrate by referring to myself as a fan repeatedly. All that said I do appreciate you leaving a comment and your well wishes regarding my career.
Yes, this dialog would not have taken place if your title had been Nightwish Fan's Honest Thoughts.
Your comments to YW were very similar to what fans are giving. But not similar what professional reviewers (not UA-cam) are giving.
UA-cam is so full of reactors, music channels etc. that visitors often check the title when choosing what to look. I f.ex. look always the title.
Enough viewpoints from both sides?😅
Have a nice week and Columbus Day.
I respect your work here, and most of the time like what you say in your videos, but as a singer and musician myself, I must express that I think you talked a lot of bullshit concerning Troy's voice. And I think most of my coleagues (if not all of them) would agree with me.
Come on, people may like whatever they like (and I'm not a big fan of Troy either), but saying that it it NOT SINGING is simply not true. It may be bad singing for some, but it is definetly singing. Otherwise what you are doing is simply invalidating the work of plenty of masterful singers who do not necessarily rely on big and grandiose with their voice (and I'm not saying Troy is one of them). Saying that it is not singing because "he's not engaging his diaphragm and his throat isn't totally relaxed, whereas there's a lot of air coming out" simply shows a misconception both on how our muscles work when we sing and on how our body ''''''should''''' behave for it to be considered ''''''proper singing''''''. And I say this based on vocal science and pedagogy, not only on my opinion. This is the kind of misconception that we have to deal all the time as singing teachers and the reason for a lot of what people tend mostly to do the wrong way and have problems trying to sing. "Lacking power and emotion" is an opinion, and not something one can say to ''''validate'''' something as singing or not.
There are lots of great singers that rely mainly on delicate, raw and airy soundind voices in many stiles and different cultures around the world, and that isn't necessarily any easier than a high belt to do well. And 'airier' singing is an absolute important step in bulting a fuller sound also. Music is art, art is expression, airier and fuller sounds express diferent things and '''''talking on pitch'''''' as you said, IS ALSO SINGING. And often much more dificult than what it may seem for beginners. Brazilian bossa-nova, samba and folk, and lots of other absolutely rich and important stiles of music from around the world are there to prove that and more. :)
Sure, we can say that what he does is technically singing, but you also say that what he does is not even to your own liking.
"Even if it's bad singing, it's still singing".
Well, fair enough, but it seems at this point, we are talking semantics. Whether what he does is "not" singing, or "bad" singing, it doesn't really change the point I was making. In fact you seem to feel the same way about his voice, and I gather your problem with my assessment is simply how I worded it, and my generalization of vocal technique?
I'm a composer first and foremost, but I have taken classical vocal training, so I'm not totally uninformed. You have to understand that I didn't have time to dedicate to the countless different vocal techniques studied throughout the world in this video. I thought my technical summary of his lack of good technique was sufficient as a brief overview for the sake of this review - but if it's a misconception, feel free to clarify what it is that actually makes his singing bad, if it's not what I described. Again though, I don't know what use that discussion is, if essentially we are in agreement about the value he adds to the music.
@@ohacade408 Well, I was not talking about me. :) I'm not a big fan of his, yes. But I particularly don't think he is a bad singer. I think he fits pretty well in most of the parts he is in this album. He is not a phenomenal singer, but he is pretty decent for the purpose he is used. I really love Sway, specially the dissonant chords in the bridge, and the way his voice is used there, alongside Floor's. And I can say the same about Hiraeth and Lanternlight. Aestetically, it fits the mood of what they're trying to create.
But the point is not what I think or what you think. What bothers me is that by saying that it is not singing you are reducing singing, which is a whole art form, to the type of singing that you like. :) Say that you don't like it, because that's the truth, but don't say that it is not singing, because that's not the case. Saying it only feeds prejudices towards differents kinds of musical expression - since you are a trained musician and you have an audience of people from many different backgrounds.
Well, it's just a different type of singing. Some will like it, some won't, that's ok, but saying it is not singing may sound a bit rude and pretentious. For me it feels a bit like Adorno saying that jazz is not art because he doesn't like it.
And by everything the band says, it is pretty clear that Troy singing does not come from him (like you suggested), but mostly from Tuomas himself and the other members of the band. For example, it was revealed in an interview that Troy was never intented to sing the final part for Perfume of the Timeless. But at rehearsal Floor wasn't present, and he had to sing all the vocal lines for reference, and hearing him sing the final part, the other band members liked it so much that they asked him to do so on the album. Other parts, however, were always intended to be his.
I understand your point. Anyone can be a singer, and it’s an art form that comes in all forms of expression. Technically this is true. I accept your point whole-heartedly. Some people even refer to metal screaming/harsh vocals as “singing”, and I have no real objection to this. My issue is, I don’t find it to be a useful point in this particular case, if I’m taking it upon myself to give an honest review of this album and not mince my words.
Floor is a singer who has dedicated her entire life to studying the art form and its various nuances/techniques. In my view, allowing Troy to sing, or what I would describe as talking on pitch (in many cases, off pitch), over an otherwise glorious instrumental when a lifetime of vocal knowledge is standing right there, is a true reduction of the art form, and not acceptable. True, that is just my opinion, but wouldn’t you agree that’s a reasonable conclusion to make?
As for him singing in Perfume of the Timeless - I’m happy for him that the band members made that call, but it would be nice if the actual professional singer this was intended for had a say in the matter. Would she have approved? Considering her recent comments, I doubt it. I hope you see where I’m coming from.
@@ohacade408My only objection in what I wrote was the way you expressed your dislike of Troy’s singing. It may not seem a useful point to you for this matter, but it is something that touches my area of speciality and I felt like sharing my discomfort. Not to defend Troy specifically, but to defend softer and ‘airier’ singing.
Now, I do agree that Floor is the professional singer here, and she must always be the center piece vocally - which I think she is in this album. There is no Harvest here, thank God. That was too much Troy. That’s why I’m not bothered at all by him here. In this new album his voice is there mainly for mood setting and contrast, and I think it works well for this sake. So it doesn’t bother me, particularly.
But, of course, I find it very strange what Floor said about his voice on this record, and it makes us wander about how this kind of decision is taken within the band. Because I do feel like she should know this kind of thing in advance, that’s for sure. In this sense, I agree with you. But that’s something we will probably be left wandering. 😅
@@victorbaccili I've been considering your concerns over this part of the video. I think it's a good point, and I should have been more careful with my wording. I added it to the addendum to help clarify any misconceptions. Thank you ♥
Clickbait BS
I'm open to constructive feedback, but it sounds like you didn't watch the whole video.
Most stupid remark of the day, just ignore haters.