Blue Marvel Fights The Phoenix Force: Defenders Beyond Part 3 (Comics Explained)
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- Опубліковано 19 гру 2022
- We're back with Defenders Beyond! Loki's Defenders manage to escape the Second Cosmos and the Beyonder, but Taaia is grievously wounded in the process and none of Loki's or Blue Marvel's expertise seems to be helping. Enter - the Phoenix! But what is the price of a universal constant's aid...?
▸ What Is The Phoenix Force: The Phoenix Force is a fictional entity appearing in American comic books published by Marvel Comics. Created by Chris Claremont and Dave Cockrum, the Phoenix Force is famous for its central role in The Dark Phoenix Saga storyline, and is frequently linked to Jean Grey. The Phoenix Force can manipulate cosmic energies and tap into the life-force reserved for future generations, which denies their existence. It can wield this energy to project beams of immense destructive force. It can migrate throughout time and space by folding its energy back into itself, causing it to collapse akin to a black hole and then reform itself upon reaching its destination. It can directly absorb offensive energy such as Cyclops' optic blasts or the energy and life-force from a foe. As it is the nexus of all psionic energy, it has mental abilities on a cosmic level, including telepathy and telekinesis.
It allows its preferred host to perform cosmic pyrokinesis, as it allows Lady Phoenix from 1,000,000 BC Avengers to summon preternatural flames that can melt supernovas.[3] For Jean Grey, it allows her to perform cosmic pyrokinesis strong enough to easily defeat Terrax, as she is in complete control of her own cosmic fire that after Terrax submits to his defeat, the fire dissipates at her will leaving him charred. She also uses the cosmic fire blast to counter Galactus. In some conditions, a bit of cosmic fire can easily burn anything it comes into contact, as when it possesses young Jean Grey she unconsciously melts the equipment the medics try to put on her.
The extent of the Phoenix Force's abilities has not been fully clarified. Jean Grey as The White Phoenix of the Crown is able to change the future of a universe by reaching back in time and urging Cyclops to move on with his life.
Another major display of the power of the Phoenix is during the Secret Wars II. Rachel Summers seeks to kill the Beyonder, who expresses both amazement and disappointment in her. With that, the Beyonder gives Rachel full access to the power of the Phoenix as well as some of his own. With such power, Rachel is able to absorb the consciousness of every sentient mortal being in the universe.
The Phoenix often seeks hosts with strong inherent psionic abilities so they can withstand its power. When the Phoenix Force enters a host, a small fragment of its power is left behind when it leaves. Even a small fragment can be stronger than an inexperienced host using the Phoenix Force's powers, such as with Rachel Summers, who has full access to the Force, but her opponent Necrom threw moons at her with only a fragment.[volume & issue needed] When bonded with a host, the Phoenix Force amplifies their abilities to incalculable levels. It can manipulate matter on a sub-atomic level and transmute elements, like turning wood to gold or stone to crystal; on a smaller scale, it can alter the molecular fabrics. It can teleport others across space and open interdimensional portals to instantly access distant portions of the Universe. If an avatar of the Phoenix Force is harmed or killed, it forms an "egg" of cosmic power around them that is incubated in the White Hot Room, and hatches out completely healed. As one of the oldest cosmic beings, the Phoenix Force possesses a high level of cosmic awareness and prescience.
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Blue Marvel Fights The Phoenix Force: Defenders Beyond Part 3 (Comics Explained)
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I think the beyonder is specifically saying within the white hot room he stands no chance. The part with him saying "--but against the pure Phoenix Force? Actually inside the White Hot Room?" leads me to believe that its even more powerful within its own realm
I back this, would be akin to Mephisto or Dormamu in their realms
Well as Rob stated the Poeonix Force's power is limited when it is in a host-body or avatar such as Jean Grey but in the White Hot Room it's power is unlimited the same could be true for the Beyonder or Beyonders to interact with other beings they take on physical forms and physical forms can be destroyed with enough power. The Beyonders; true forms cannot be percieved by any being nor will it ever . The unfortunate thing is that the Beyonder as well as the rest of them have been retconned so many by various writers it's hard to keep up. But it worth noting during the Secret War II run the preretconned Beyonder encounters Rachel Summers and remarks that her power the Phoenix Force was the closest level of power to his own.
So, eventually some writer is going to take on the Beyonder(s) in the Beyondverse? I'd be cool with that.
Something to note was that, it was stated that the Beyonders themselves get their energy and the energy they place into cosmic cubes, from a realm beyond the beyond verse-which was then revealed to be the White Hot Room.
IMHO the phoenix beats the beyonder in the white hot room, anywhere else? The phoenix needs a physical Avatar and thus is weaker. The beyonder beats the phoenix in any other form of reality EXCEPT the white hot room.
Blue marvel needs more exposure
He is too powerful for MCU
Don't hold your breath ☹️
Yes he does.
Yeah 💀 he is op now
@@storiestotell I think he’s getting these stories cause he’s going to be introduced in the MCU soon
This is the first time I've ever seen a tiger and Phoenix fight outside of a kung fu movie!
Even Beyonder himself believes he can be killed by the power of the Phoenix. I think he only amped Rachel in that instance because the Phoenix was not in its purest form
That, plus Rachel was still a very new host at that point.
I don’t think the Beyonder speaks for all Beyonder’s. Lol
@@gadwaboy21 dude was literally punching celestials and thought it was hilarious. Yea he definitely speaks for no one but himself lol 😂
@@itisi8068 does he?
yes he gave Rachel some power to fully channel Phoenix, not to Phoenix Force like some try to insist
I initially read this as “Blue Beetle fights the Phoenix,” and I was like, “WHAT!?”
One day
It's Ted Kord Blue Beetle, everyone knows how it ends. 😥
Ha...what a short fight that would be
Right? That’s why I had to reread it because I’m like, “Did I just misread this or was this part of a DC-Marvel crossover event?
@@mattway18 it was just one splash page and that's it, just the splash page
In the White Hot Room? Absolutely the Phoenix could destroy a Beyonder.
I would love to see if the MCU gets to a point where we can see a live action version of blue marvel 🧐. I’m sure they’d nerf his power but still it’d be a sight to see
Iono if you know but every single character is the MCU is a watered down version of themselves in the comics
@@hydroflow1 did you just not read the last sentence?
I think that's already been announced, Phase5 "The Marvels" IIRC?
Indeed they'll make him weaker than Captain Marvel. 🤔
@@hydroflow1 I’m realizing that. They needed hulk and made him like a puppy smh 🤦🏽♂️. They made drax look like an idiot. There are probably a few others I can’t name at the moment.
Something I find interesting I'd that when America Chavez used The Eternity Mask to copy the Phoenix's power, the Phoenix knew that such a thing should be impossible within the white hot room. It's then that the Phoenix sensed that a portion of itself had sided with the Defenders and wanted to protect them. So the Phoenix's own power was technically split, all while also stated to having been judging to whole conflict to see the outcome.
Hence the panel at 13:12 where it says that the Phoenix Force turned against itself.
Actually in another room in the white hot room another phoenix make her a host because that phoenix believed there was a purpose to their journey while the other phoenix didn’t
And the white phoenix beat America with the Phoenix and the eternity mask
I agree with this
Well the eternity mask doesn't grand you a win or lose. It only matches the level of power off who you facing against with. It's up to you if you win or not.
The panel is saying america with the power of the phoenix
Makes perfect sense. We've only seen an inkling Phoenix's power through avatars, not its true power in its own realm. It will always exist as long as there's a life left.
I agree, and if we look at this current story, the white hot room is outside the beyond verse. Each realm out is power scaling at its finest.
People need to apply wisdom to appreciate the existence of the metaphysical such as the Phoenix Force/WHR.
Over a decade ago before reddit and twitter there used to be a forum called the KMC (the posters on there were just like you Comicsexplained, experts on comics except without UA-cam as it wasn't really a thing back then). They had a sub forum dedicated to Comic Book versus what ifs and The phoenix was one character that the posters on there kept putting into versus battles especially against Galactus who many simply refused to believe would lose in a fight to the Phoenix. There was one particular poster on there who literally provided compelling evidence that the Phoenix of the white crown was actually the second most powerful entity in the Marvel multiverse behind The one above all. I'm not 100 per cent sure but from what I remember the Phoenix in her pure form or through Jean Grey as the Phoenix of the white crown should crush the beyonder.
as many others, you too confuse the simple fact that, yes phoenix force cannot be destroyed, but that does not mean that it cannot be defeated. it's two different things. in the galactus fight, there was no winner or loser. they both simply stopped.against the current beyonders, yes phoenix will come on top. against OG beyonder, no chance.
The Phoenix force pure is the sum of life this was and will be, the Beyonder is alive and in this multiverse.
I'm so glad they are finally writing the Phoenix with true power. I mean the power all life that has and ever will be. That's true power
Equal and opposite to death.
Beyond Death. Death has said that the phoenix is beyond it, and the nature of the white hot room *is* the ultimate start and end point. Death’s towers just serve as a waypoint/waystation.
Death has also said that any the the phoenix takes to the white hot room is outside of her (death’s) jurisdiction.
@@Parmesan_Seeker way beyond death
@@qb6570Equal, bro. Marvel in their hierarchy classed both of them as level 11.
@@IStevenSeagal Naw this is the problem with marvel. Inconsistent power and hierarchies based upon whoever is writing for the month.
Death and the Phoenix force are on 2 completely different levels of power and importance. Death is universal. Pf is singular across all realities. Death along with Eternity and infinity will cease at the end of the current universe. Phoenix is the end and beginning of each universe.
The beyonder killed Death in secret wars and chose someone to take the mantle. The living tribunal judged Death across all universes to determine if it was worthy to exist. Never would that happen to pf. Once upon a time, Eternity was more powerful and outranked Death. PF>Eternity >Death
It depends on who's writing.
It makes perfect sense it's literally a force that represents all life past, present, and future on a omniversal level which is far beyond the multiverse. All the power those beings have technically belong to the Phoenix.
I love Blue Marvel and when Al Ewing writes him. Marvel shouldve never canceled The Ultimates. Marvel is plot power because Blue M going against Phoenix is nuts and I love it!!! Phoenix vs Beyonder or even Molecule Man is all who is writing at the time is the winner lol. Al Ewing’s Marvel cosmic writing is on par with Geoff John’s DC cosmic writing.
Absolutely Correct, in Jim Shooters cosmology Pre Retcon Beyonder was the original TOAA, a Supreme Being aka the most powerful being in all existence. In Al Ewings cosmology that is not the case.
I loved the random metal music insert in the background when you did the beyonder vs the phoenix force
I'm so glad you finally addressed this storyline with the Phoenix Force. I'm literally about to make my own video about the Phoenix Force because I feel people don't have an understanding of its power. I will say the Phoenix is and has always been stronger than anything in marvel other than TOAA, and here is why:
1. Since its debut, the Watcher literally stated it to be a force "second, only to the creator" which we all know is TOAA aka Marvel/Jack Kirby & Stan Lee.
2. They Beyonder(s) shown in this comic is literally the same one from Secret Wars. In fact, in this comic issue someone asks him if he THAT specific Beyonder to which he confirms yes. He has always been the same Beyonder.
3. They same Beyonder(s) states that "the realm beyond the beyond is dangerous, even for me." and as you showed in your video using the blender as a metaphor to what would happen to them/him.
4. We've only seen the host die/defeated as the Phoenix and were obviously limited in their powers. I truly believe the more Psionic powers the host has, the more power they can wield. Which is probably why Jean is the perfect host/one in the same.
5. We have NEVER seen the full power of the Phoenix Force, only the limited power of the host. The only *known* host to reach the true unlimited power of the Phoenix Force is Jean as White Phoenix of the Crown. Keep in mind the Phoenix Force is split across the multiverse, into countless hosts, and can "gather its pieces" to increase its power (like when Jean called the Force out of Rachel who was in a whole other universe, or in AvX when any of the Phoenix Five lost their fragment, it joined into the remaining members of that universe).
6. I believe the construction worker is either a representation of death or Stan Lee lol.
I numbered my points to make it easier for people to address in the comments. Cheers and Happy Holidays!!!
This is 5 months late, but if I'm not mistaken, WPOTC is just the highest version of the host, not really the true force phoenix
Bout dang time!!!!!! This the one I’ve been waiting for!!!
I think the Phoenix stomps the beyonder, there was a comic, I don't remember which one but it talks about how the God's are more powerful in their realms and only use a fraction of their power on earth to prevent from causing too much destruction..
I think what we are seeing is a rebalancing of the cosmic and terrestrial God's, I don't think the tiger god beat the Phoenix, but held it back long enough for them to jump away.
My thoughts on the Tiger as well. I think is surprised her.
“A little cookin of the books” lol. I think it makes sense for the phoenix force seeing the way it’s physical form has been it’s greatest weakness. I feel the best comparison is Mephisto and how doom is so capable but without divine aid/sacrifice is helpless to him in his own realm-obviously not GKD but we are talking abt that type of power. So I say that to say, I’d say cosmic entities are like different infinities and some are larger than others. I’d say there’s a, for lack of a better term, infinite amount of different types but a cosmic entity in a physical form is a more quantifiable infinity whereas in their domain they raise that to infinity (infinity to the infinity power)
The story was in Classic X-Men, it was published post Inferno and was used as a sort of retcon to establish that this was the part of Jean’s psyche that the Phoenix borrowed when it created the Jean copy and shows how this piece of her psyche and the Phoenix returned to Earth and joined with Madelyn Pryor.
Also I remember seeing the Cosmic Raptor that showed up in the Perpetua storyline in DC and thinking this was DC borrowing from the Phoenix being omniversal and this is how it is represented in DC.
yes i read that too, Phoenix is omniversal.
At some point, these character competitions at extra high levels of reality could result with an immovable object and unstoppable force situation where their attacks and defenses simply pass through each other.
I'm confused, the Beyonder just said that it was out classed by the Phoenix...there is your answer. The big elephant in the room to me is does Marvel have a editor? Is there anyone that can tell a writer no, you can't write that? In the Dr Doom video recently posted Blue Marvel gets one shot by Doom TWICE and now here he is fighting the Phoenix in the White Room? Someone needs to step in and make it make sense.
I absolutely love your content Rob & Team, and I gotta say this storyline is hitting my curiosity triggers really, REALLY hard....
I've enjoyed learning how good these writers were thru your channel, so I am STOAKED for this lol...
It's learning from a super excited big kid human ☺️
The phonix cant die because its the totality of all life that has or ever will exist. now that it has no host it won't be a question of if the Phoenix can defeat the beyonder it's only a question of when.
3 Beyonders killed the living tribubal lol. Its comics. Its whatever the writer wants.
The Beyonder that I remember is the one from Spiderman The Animated Series.
The Phoenix Force is by far the most powerful entity in the MCU
@malus1426 You misunderstand how the Phoenix work. 1. The raptor is an infinitesimal of it's true form and exist within in the narrative in every universe. It's power is limited to only effect that universe. 2 The host plays a big factor. No one not even Taaia,Rachel or Hope has come close to wielding the power of the Phoenix. There was even an easter egg when Beyonder gave Rachel his powers, she compared it to Jeans. As powerful as Taaia was even stronger than Rachel she still had limits which Jean doesn't. So it does makes sense why uni phoenix+weaker host couldn't defeat Beyonder
@malus1426 Ooh I understand but times change I suppose and they needed to make a place for TOAA to be FAAAR above beyonder and his realm
@malus1426literally why you can't accept that omega beyonder was beyonder from secret war also he would beat the hell outta fodder phoenix he teared the hoi stories and hoi scales higher than fodder phoenix dimension even that fodder phoenix was destroyed by galactus.
As a Marine myself, Blue Marvel has been my favorite character since learning about him in one of your videos.
In my opinion yes the white phoenix power is leagues above the beyonder! Having a host only limits on how much power that can be accessed frm the white hot room. The way I see it the living tribunal, white phoenix and the beyonder all exist in the same realm which is below the realm of the one above all and each of them have there tier levels
Your Weiner gets hard because your heart pumps blood. The same context applies for both PF and Beyonder.
Just a thought about the Construction Worker... If the White-hot Room is a place of balance and building, and the Phoenix is Light and Life incarnate, wouldn't it stand to reason that he's the other half of that equation? I mean, even Death builds in its own way... 🤔😳
Also, didn't Rob mention Glorian in another videon? I'm pretty sure but I can't remember which one...
It’s not possible for blue marvel to beat or match the Phoenix. The phoenix is the culmination of all life. Antimatter life included.
Yeah he sucker punched it. He would never beat it. Same with the beyonder last issue, he can inconvenience them by breaking their matter forms but that's about it.
Blue Marvel was created out of Love. He wouldn't exist if there's no love in creating BM in comics.
Phoenix is Love. The house of ideas wouldn't operate if there's no light/burning passion to create. Money is a big factor 🤑
Why do people always try to down play blue marvel and his feats as they sit right in your faces…
@@justified_wrath_21 There are bigger factors at play. Phoenix Force, like Beyonders et. al brought money to the company more than BM has done in its few years of existence. Your view is constricted only to what's written and what's decided in the White Hot Room. You missed the obvious points here habibi, if you're crusading feats here, then that's child play. BM, like the others are common anti-thesis to the Phoenix Force. God has to play dumb to all his creations if he wants to feel "inclusive". Also, Phoenix called out Loki GOS to be more of a threat than BM as far as I can recall. Phoenix Force has downplayed many times for us and all the evidences sit in your face 😸
Those same ppl would argue that Stupidman, sry… Superman would defeat The Phoenix. 🤦🏾♂️
I love that rob embraces the power scaling community a little more nowadays ♥️
He’s always done that what do you think beyond omega level videos were for? Or too strong to be in mcu? It’s his thoughts based on factual evidence of certain characters who are more powerful than characters in mcu for example doctor strange.
To chime in on Phoenix vs Be-yonder, if the phoenix is summ of all life, past present and future, even the be-yodelers power, is even part of the phoenix. And the full power of the phoenix, without a host, on her football field, I doubt the be-yonder has enough power to completely defeat her, which in some small capacity, he would also need to kill a small part of himself.
True that. Its the creation force after all
I love these longer videos! I put these on while I’m at work so the longer the better! I can’t wait for the full story of this one!
Would you ever consider/like full story videos on run you haven’t covered? I know that’s a lot to ask but that would be awesome
Same here, I work 3rd shift and the videos keep my up
Common blue marvel W. Mcu debut gonna be fire.
Common…hmm interesting choice. I would’ve picked Yahya Abdul-Mateen, or maybe David Ajala
@@blaxpoitation8528 Method Man will make a great Blue Marvel as well.
If the Phoenix is the power of all life to ever exist then I'd just ask if the Beyonders are alive or not.
Anything that exists is touched by the Phoenix Force, nothing lives without it, without it not even Gods would exist, that's been clearly stated in the comics
@@godofstories-102 are you losing reading comprehension? The Beyonder himself totally admitted blatantly his inferiority against the Phoenix Force. And they are powering their engines from the White Hot Room and they are even scared of going to the trial which was Phoenix doing with the Defenders. Him tearing a comic doesn't show him a power boost because they have all been revealed to be beyond narratives and you shouldn't be surprised of him tearing a comic book since they are beyond narratives. And have you seen Avengers Beyond? He revealed they stole Lost One's small power and they want Avengers to help them because they are scared. Stop overhyping Beyonder, stop being a fanboy and stop making us laugh. Phoenix stomps!
@@godofstories-102 hahahaha lmfao, you are literally trying to make them up when they can't and aren't. They can really manipulate the story because they are beyond narratives just like the beings Phoenix and TOAA, how can your simple mind can't understand?
@@godofstories-102 yes, because their revelation that they stole powers from the lost one. And from the Defender's Beyond, how can you not also understand the Kaballah structure? And can the Beyonders prune characters from the whole story or canon? I think not really, Phoenix has threatened characters like GOS Loki who has ability to manipulate narratives. She can remove characters from the Tree of Life (Kaballah) or Marvel.
@@godofstories-102 Yes it can be from the House of Ideas and wtf? You just literally showed that you don't understand the texts😂 Da'at (Land of Couldn't be Shouldn't be) is not a real sefirot and how can they power their engines from their when it's not even a real sefirot! I can now say that you really don't understand the story and it makes me laugh, do some research and reread the stories!
Beyond Omega Level: Icon (DC Milestone Comics)
I think the writing is trying to establish that the further beyond the barrier you go, the more powerful the beings that reside in those realms. So since the white hot room is beyond the Beyondverse, that must mean the Phoenix is more powerful than the Beyond's... I think... Lol
I think you are correct...but then you added 'Lol' and you lost all credibility...
@@patrickkilduff5272why are you so cynical about someone writing “lol”? If you agree with his point that’s fine, you don’t have to get all upset over internet lingo my dude.
@@patrickkilduff5272 ...
@@patrickkilduff5272 lol
So pure Phoenix is like true Darkside form?
Consider Phoenix Force is all life that's has, is, and will ever exist. I can buy that Phoenix Force in its full total force is Beyond the Beyonder just as the White Hot Room is Beyond The Beyond Verse. I'm curious to see the Phoenix Force in the Beyond verse. For the sake of balance, things may switch. Or not at all. We've never seen true Phoenix Force go all out. While it's a form of energy, if the foe it's facing is in any conceivable way living or living energy, with a birth or creation and a expiration it should be able to extinguish them or consume them or purify.
Beyonder: "SMOOTHY ATTACK!" XD 12:55
At first when I read it I didn’t know how to feel about it but after you and friend explained it more I think the pure phoenix is justified
I don't know if Rob will see this comment, but I remember coming across an old marvel scan of "Death" appearing to a bunch of superheroes in multiple various forms, and one of those forms looked oddly similar to the construction worker guy we saw in this issue. The other forms included the classic grim reaper look, Mistress Death, and even Death of the Endless.
Interesting. I’d be curious to hear what print this is from if you ever find it!
This story has the Brian Michael Bendis vibes, where Brian ignores the history and continuity of characters to write a story irritating everyone😂. But things goes back to normal when another writer takes over.
I live for irritating old comic readers. Too rigid, no flexibility.
@@fishnewt1331 😂But the thing is Brian ignores what he himself established in a previous issue. That's part of the reason people get irritated with him. Comics explained gave examples and it was hilarious 🤣😂
@@kcopara1: Okay. Yet, Ewing doesn’t. So, how is it that this same story has Brian Michael Bendis vibes if it still follows the canon Ewing establishes?
@@fishnewt1331 You are barking up the wrong tree. I don't feed trolls. Find something better to do than seeking confrontations with complete strangers on social media smh 🤦🏾 over stupid ish.
@@kcopara1: Me asking how the two are similar is being confrontational? Okay…..You weren’t being rude, so I wasn’t taking this that seriously. I don’t know how you suddenly jumped to this conclusion. Eh, Whatevs.
Nice video!
lmao 😂 that blender snap shot from the comic book with the camera move zoom had me dead
I was waiting for this video, Al Ewing’s Defender’s Beyond has been amazing and his depiction of the Phoenix Force and the White Hot Room was awesome.
how so?
@@blackmage665 have you seen the way it’s been written in recent years?
The Phoenix has become a common basic power up (case and point Avengers and Thano’s comic book when Thane become the Phoenix Host).
Al Ewing is at least trying making it seem more interesting again.
@@WileyKeneki Wait he's doing the SAME thing here though. and everyone talks the same! I cannot say he isn't trying, but is definitely not making it an easy read for me. it feels like this should be a comedy and should not be referenced for further storytelling, which is a shame because he's the only guy really working on blue marvel.
@@blackmage665 nah he’s definitely not doing what Jason Aaron’s doing. The Phoenix in the current Avengers run or even that really boring Echo mini series sucks.
Al’s building on Chris Clermont’s Phoenix and even paying homages with to previous writers with the one liners he has the Phoenix say.
The Phoenix is a cosmic powerhouse, not some basic power up that seemingly everyone in the past has used at some point before Jean Grey.
Also I’m enjoying the world building Al Ewing’s doing here, he’s got a bigger story to tell and this is just another chapter continuing on from his Ultimates run.
@@WileyKeneki even if I give you all that, they all still talk the same.
The problem I have with this comic is that well, there's the implication that Doom, much as I like him, can beat the phoenix force in a fight which seems SO wrong. The comic where Doom beats blue marvel was in 2020, not long ago at all.
Phoenix as it is should be second to none except TOAA, Same goes for Death, Eternity/Multiversal Etnernity, First Firmament, Infinity, Beyonders(as a collective at minimum if not individually), Queen of Nevers etc. Nothing should technically surpass them. They shouldn't be more powerful than each other either, only whoever implements their will faster wins in a fight. With Living Tribunal there to balance the scales as needed.
I second this
True. The Phoenix Force was stated to be second to TOAA. It have birth to all that is including all the Cosmic entities and marvel pantheons.
TOAA
Phoenix Force
Oblivion
Queen of Nevers imo..
Thankfully you're not the writer. Beyonder should Always be in top 2 , everyone else don't matter, cos beyonder was created to be most powerful,fine they invented TOAa, now beyonder should he number 2 , phoenix is 3 then the rest
@oluwadamilola6233 The Beyonder is one of many like himself. There was never anything to suggest a member of his species can single handedly take on Living Tribunal. Beyonder has battles with hosts of Phoenix Force, so there is no indication he's more powerful than the Phoenix Force itself. Each host is only a fraction of the true Phoenix. It exists in every universe, throughout all time, simultaneously beyond even the Beyond Verse. It is the sum total of all life in the limitless multiverses. The Beyonder and its species is the sum total of everything in it's own Multiverse. There's no true indication one is surpassing other. Only known things is Phoenix exists Beyond, Beyonder verse and Beyonder confirm this issue he cannot take on the actual Phoenix Force himself atleast in that realm he didn't even want to try or entertain idea of it, an indicator atleast there he's aware he far outmatched.
@@darrius3022 didn't the Beyonders destroy an M-body of the Living Tribunal? It wasn't the true form of the Living Tribunal.
Beyonder vs Phoenix. Sounds like it's time for a DEATH BATTLE!!!
Interesting that the phoenix force calls adam „Adam Kadmon“, I found translations like ‚most high man‘ probably recognizing his powers in some way for human beings !
I think in the white hot room, it’s power is beyond omega and doesn’t need a host, and I would like to think the phoenix would destroy and re-create the beyonder how the phoenix sees fit.
Ya, a Blender
No beyonder would destroy phoenix
@@pilot8220 any proof? cause in this video, beyonder is outclassed lol
@@cosmicentity1077 According to the latest retcon and it's only when the PF is in the White hot room but yes you are right.
@@cheeseburgerfreddy6350 nah, still unknown if the Phoenix is on the outside of her realm.
Rob...so are ypu gonna cover ISOM #1? From the Rippaverse...you should buddy
I agree
I love this channel’s videos
I would wager on the Phoenix Force for a few reasons:
1) Beyonders were created by Celestials which were created by God while the Phoenix Force was created by God directly. It barely stands to reason that a Beyonder is more powerful than a Celestial given those circumstances so why would it be more powerful than the Phoenix?
2) The Phoenix Force is representative of all life that has, does, and ever will exist. While it may have an upper limit that limit is seemingly unfathomable at any point in time before the end. The Beyonders are life. They are a part of that sum total.
3) The White Hot Room exists beyond the Beyondverses. We're the Beyonders meant to be more powerful, that would be the other way around.
4) Marvel most recently said so.
If this is the Beyonder after Secret Wars vs Phoenix, the Phoenix can overpower the Beyonder. The Phoenix is the embodiment of all loving things in the universe.
As long as there is life Phoenix could never be defeated so the only way the beyonder could win is destroy all reality and then destroy himself as well to rid all life, but then he wouldnt exist to be able to defeat the Phoenix
Exactly 💯
This is one of my favorite comic series that you have showcased on your Channel
I read a comic where the Grey Hulk beat the devil by throwing dice for Glorian's soul... at the end, The Shaper of Worlds shows up and whisks Glorian away.. all this happened in Las Vegas..
Canonically and logically, Phoenix Force was always higher than the Beyonder. Phoenix is omniversal, omnipresent, omniscient, and nigh omnipotent, meanwhile Beyonder is none of those, except when some writers call him "omnipotent" just for reactions since you can't be omnipotent if Toaa exists. Also, Phoenix Force is the only being along with Toaa to have complete control over the existence itself. Phoenix is not even an abstract being like other cosmic beings, it's the literal birth and destruction force of the entire marvel, basically the force of Toaa.
I can agree with that
You're low balling the beyonder a bit too much' when he entered the multiverse he was omnipresent and all knowing plus nigh omnipotent. No the PF is an abstract like other cosmic beings and serves TOAA like the rest, it has a job just like the rest. Not saying the PF is weaker than the beyonder it's stronger when it's in the White hot room.
@@cheeseburgerfreddy6350 he wasn't omnipresent or all knowing. That was the whole point of him entering the main universe is to see what happens. So if you're all knowing, you wouldn't know that?. I'm not low balling him, but Phoenix Force isn't abstract being like others, it's a pure force. It's been stated many times it's the spark that gave birth to creation itself. It's Toaa then pf then first firmament then everything else.
@@cheeseburgerfreddy6350 to make it even clearer, Phoenix is omnipresent right, so it can go back in time to creation and cancel Beyonder ever being created, meanwhile Beyonder can't cancel Phoenix. This right here ends any debate between the two.
also in issue #2 marvel already established that the beyonder realm uses the higher dimension which is the white hot room to run their engines, basically control the multiverse.
Wait is blue marvel confirmed to be coming to the mcu?
The defenders have hit a level no other characters have hit in marvel right now they are the goats
I love how Al Ewing is expanding Marvel's cosmology. It's crazy how big Marvel's cosmology is. I mean a single Universe in Marvel is already it's own Multiverse, because the Universe is infinitely expanding and is connected to an infinite number of realms. The Multiverse is obviously an infinite number of Universes. The Beyondverse is beyond the Multiverse and exists in the Omniverse. The Omniverse itself is an infinite collection of Multiverses. So the Beyondverse is it's own multiversal size realm that transcends the main Marvel Multiverse. The White Hot Room transcends the Beyondverse and the Phoenix's true form transcends all Ivory Kings. And then the House Of Ideas is beyond the Omniverse itself and houses all stories in fiction that has ever been created by The One Above All. Each realm is infinitely superior to the other. So I'd say the Phoenix is the second most powerful entity in all of Marvel Comics behind The One Above All.
The Beyonder's only Hope to Defeat the Phoenix is Protege.
Apparently, he is Still Imprisoned in The One-Above-All.
Protege doesn't even exist anymore
Glorian was on the Avengers Assemble animated series making custom glass sculptures and riding unicorns with the Hulk.
I had forgotten all about that! 🤣
@DaellusKnights lol yep. When Thor knocked Hulk from the moon back to earth so hard he had amnesia.
😂😂😂💀 Glorian The Universe's Greatest architect and Hulk it's destroyer,they appreciate each other's talents
Jean is the Phoenix and the Phoenix is Jean. Always.
nice to see the beyonder's priorities are in order, making another blender while tigra and phoenix are going at it XD
So, in my interpretation at least, inside the White Hot Room the Pheonix can physically manifest and since it acts as its own realm is most powerful there, basically and literally unstoppable. But as a host or in a form where it cant express its full power the power and abilities of a Beyonder are simply too great.
The Beyonder is in pursuit of answers. The Phoenix Force remains a mystery. Applying a bit of Kabbalah and Kundalini won't hurt in understanding the context of how these 2 differentiate, at least on the surface.
The Beyonder is undeniably great but his flaws are fatal. Humanity is all-powerful linear in nature, we are in pursuit of desire and we can choose to accept whether there's a providence that guides us or not.
I was wondering why Tigra was here and the moment with the tiger was cool but definitely doesn't make sense also Al Ewing (if he haven't) could write a sick Martian Manhunter comic because he knows how to write a Powerhouse
The Beyonder said it himself, if the story deems it necessary the Phoenix would win.
Beyonder vs Phoenix force, stark arena .nice touch, Rob
The Phoenix is the representation of all life past present and future. The beyonder represents nothing. The beyonder is alive. Therefore the beyonder is being represented by the phoenix. The Phoenix wins hands down.
If we apply some Kundalini/Kabbalah wisdom here, you'd see that it's the Phoenix/heart that powers everything. Without love, the world is dark.
I always thought the Phoenix Force was the true #2 power in the universe: more powerful than the Living Tribunal, more powerful than the Beyonders, and even more powerful than the One Below All when they introduced him. How could the tiger god stand a chance?
Beyonder then original Was way beyond all of those He was actually TOAA until he got bored..Now hes half power so less despite still Being still OP.
I couldn’t agree more. When I saw a Tiger god hanging with the Phoenix I thought it was one of the dumbest things I’ve read.
Next thing will be Moon Knight fighting the one above all.
@@tyrannicaltypomichaeltester nope. This Run pretty much shows that he was not TOAA Level. EVER.
Also, at the end of this run, you’ll realize just how dummy powerful TOBA is. It already showed that TOBA and TOAA are the same person. TOBA is a fully angered and hateful state of mind of TOAA
I think it was more a temporary distraction. It looked like the phoenix was taken by surprise there.
Also I'm pretty sure Tiger God has tussled with Shuma Gorath before, so it's no slouch either.
@@PKLO9727 lol not true at all its all on panel...This run is nothing yet. Grain of salt.
oh my god....."son son son, "maaaaaAAAAAAAn", this is So freaking cool.
LOVING this breakdown. You rock Rob!! Happy Holiday's BTW!!
Perfect description of Jean Grey in X-Men the animated series, a glass cup....
Well let’s look at the facts. In Time Runs Out they do fight and did kill a couple Beyonders. When Thor and Hyperion went to face them. Then Doom killed the rest using his time platform and Molecule Man’s powers. So they can die.
Phoenix in essence is the source of all life in the Omni verse and is churning through old life to potential future life. It shouldn’t be possible to kill completely unless you destroy all existence. And even then it’s debatable bc potential life and eternity/infinity or other super high level beings like tribunal. So by those standards the Phoenix would kill Beyonders bc they can be killed but it’s not proven that the Phoenix can even be killed.
Seconded.
Those aren't even the omega Beyonders. Those are their avatars they didn't die
It's not just life. Its the creation force, that's why it represents life. It created all that is. It's the big bang and the last fire that will consume everything there is.
Its judgements will effect every being in Marvel except TOAA. That includes even Oblivion who is outside of the Phoenix Force's influence
Phoenix is indeed powerful WAY Powerful but you forgot this is the same Pre-Retcon Beyonder he remembered every single event that happened in Secret wars, he even stated on 1 panel mention "he was a baby" before "but now I'm an adult". This comic just changed the origin of The Beyonders and also that got me confused They can kill the Living Tribunal but there old comic The Living Tribunal hold The Phoenix (without Physical form) right on Tribunal hand like holding a pet bird and let it fly.
doesn't mean that Living Tribunal is above Phoenix lol. Did you even read that panel? Living Tribunal CANNOT discern the Phoenix.
Yeah, these comics, same as DC, retcon or just create the newest most powerful brings, evil, etc. in continuity. It’s what nearly every “event” writer does.
They just have to make a new, most powerful, oldest, existed before existence, characters.
The other commenter is correct, the original Living Tribunal, would only intervene in misuse of magic, that changes the balance of magical power in the universe.
The Living Tribunal wouldn’t help stop Thanos, because it didn’t fall under it’s jurisdiction, for lack of a better word.
@@cosmicentity1077 It's Marvel the writer can make a single citizen as powerful as literally God as he wish
@@cosmicentity1077 Bruh the living tribunal has always been second to 1 above all so I don't know what to tell you again. Beyonders murked the living tribunal, I'm just saying.
@@CorbCorbin yep The Living Tribunal basically Plot device
Thank you ROB!!!!
IM HAPPY TO SEE MY GUY GETTING SOME SHINE!!!! They my favorite hero.
In the White Hot Room, Phoenix should totally be able to take the Beyonder, maybe even all the Beyonder.
The 1st incarnation of Beyonder in the 1st Secret Wars was O.P. The Phoenix would never stand a chance. If not mistaken he eliminated Death itself as an afterthought.
They Nerfed him like crazy. He was more powerful than all Elders of the Universe and the Celestials COMBINED. OH, DID I MENTION DEATH EARLIER.
Phoenix force would neg the first incarnation of beyonder who caps at the beyond
@@Magiknewjeans They say that the Phoenix Force is Present in all Dimensions and has been around for All-Time or times existence. You mean to tell me that Death hasn't been around for the same amount of time and Not a Multi-Universal PRESENCE ? Besides its said that if left unchecked, the Phoenix Force ( the Champion of LIFE) would destroy all life as we know it. Who would benefit from that? Oh yeah, DEATH....
If The Phoenix Force and Death as sentient beings were real in any plane of existence they'd always exist. Actually you can't Quantify there power real or imagined because, both are Universal Constants. So if a being could eliminate one of them the other is a Non-issue as well. Just Saying.....
.
@@scottclarke2417 The Phoenix Force is stated to have been one of the Titans who existed first at the birth of the universe (since it existed before the universe) this also proves the phoenix is older then death and when you reach a certain plane in marvel your beyond death (the phoenix exceeds beyond that plane fyi) and when was it stated that the phoenix would destroy everything if left unchecked? the phoenix’s job is to burn away things they don’t work and make something new out of it….death itself can die every thing that dies will end up back into the white hot room the phoenix creates the universe Death is bound by the cycle of the universe the phoenix is not and you saying if one gets the defeated the other gets defeated as well so why didn’t beyonder defeat the phoenix? The phoenix force is a hybrid force not only representing life. Just saying
@@Magiknewjeans Really? We're doing this. Ok. Since You're going by the MU exclusively. I've read the ENTIRE MU ENCYCLOPEDIA WHEN I WAS A TEENAGER. Bruh. You're talking to a REAL COMIC-HEAD. I know how to interpret things as it relates to the MU mo then 90% of the Comic heads You know. Bruh. I read Marvel Wikia to remind me of the stuff I knew and catchup with progressive changes over the course of time. Dude, I've forgotten more than you know. This white hot room is new to me but, the Hierarchy of Power and existence HASN'T CHANGED. They're are 3 tiers & 6 beings ahead of everything in the universe and the Multi-Universe. Unfortunately for you the Phoenix Force isn't one of them. Fortunately, for You I know who is.
I LIKE YOU. Most people don't challenge my comments on UA-cam that often.
I THANK YOU FOR THAT.
@@scottclarke2417 The phoenix force has always been depicted as a Omniversel level character and has never been mentioned in the cosmic hierarchy of power because it’s a cosmic FORCE it’s not a cosmic being and either way the phoenix has already been depicted to be above death….death already said the phoenix didn’t have any rooms in her realm…..
Beyonder hitting Phoenix in the head with a food processor is probably peak "Beyonder."
I think only the one above all should be able to defeat the phoenix in the white room
I would say that "yes" the Phoenix force could defeat the Beyonder. As long as the pure Phoenix force itself exists, then all life and creation exists according to the various stories that exist. That should include the Beyonders and possibly even TLT, second to the TOA.
the pure Phoenix means it's the White Phoenix or the White Phoenix of the Crown.
Second to TOA is TOBA.
@@cosmicentity1077 I’d say as shown in the story Phoenix in the WHR is more powerful than the Beyonder. If Jean had been in there as WPOTC…. I doubt even the Tiger god, Beyonder and Blue Marvel would’ve stood a chance.
Finally some sense
@@cosmicentity1077 wpotc and white phoenix is the phoenix with jean grey
The pure phoenix is referring to the white hot room since that’s where it’s essence is made from
Aah yes. The storyline that revealed the Celestials created the Beyonders🤦🏽♂️
The celestials created everything
you act like this is a classic...this basically was just revealed a few months ago
@@patrickkilduff5272 I'm not acting like it's a classic.
It’s a terrible idea. Ruins all the mystery and power of the Beyonders to another celestial experiment.
celestial created A Superior Beyonder or Beyonders ok ill take that
Now that's a good fight: phoenix vs beyonder
Interesting fight !
I believe a beyonder would be able to withstand anything the phoenix throws at him, but the beyonder could probably not actually kill or eliminate the phoenix entirely. It could be a pretty epic stalemate.
So you're ignoring everything presented and just going with your bias instead of supporting facts. Gotcha.
@@indatube It's all just speculation anyways, it's not like they really fought in Defenders: Beyond.
@@subject8776: The issue is that the Beyonder himself states where he stands against the Phoenix. It’s not speculation when it comes from the mouth of the person involved. The only thing at this point that could change that is a retcon.
@@fishnewt1331 Beyond specified that the Phoenix is stronger in the White Hot Room specifically. That doesn't mean that the Phoenix is always stronger.
@@subject8776: Because the White Hot Room is it’s heart/mind. The Firebird isn’t the full Phoenix Force. That is a form it took through the imagination of Feron, one of the first hosts of the Phoenix. What Rob is posing is White Phoenix of the Crown, the Phoenix in its purest form vs the Beyonder. That means all of its assets are readily available and nothing actually states that the Phoenix can only tap into its full power from within the confines of the room. Now, given that the White Phoenix has supreme authority of the Phoenix, it makes sense to say that she should always have full access to her power, or at the very least be able to pull someone into the White Hot Room at any point. And given that the Ivory Kings (Aka the Beyonders) themselves state that the White Hot Room is a higher realm, there is little reason at all to doubt the word of the Beyonder outside of your own personal belief.
Wow, she got beat in her own realm. I would've said this was crazy, but it's pretty common now. I remembered how everyone feared mephisto in his hell. Now people just show up there and slap him around until he's in a ball crying.
She doesn’t get beat. Her powers are split because a part of the Phoenix wants them to move on but another part wants them dead. The Phoenix removes itself from America and Galactus’ mom and the group uses that to escape. The Tiger God also looks to be losing in the last panel
@@robb1914 yeah it was kinda a perfect storm for the defenders. They had everything going for them here and only barely got out. If the phoenix was actually out for blood she would has just incinerated them on impact.
she never got beaten and taaia was just a test for the defenders
Lmao the Phoenix Force could have ended them all if it wanted too. The Phoenix was just slip into half. Matching the same level of power off with who you facing against with. That's the whole point of the eternity mask. Yet, the Phoenix was winning against itself and at the very end it looked like the Phoenix was actually winning against the tiger god. Remember. It's the white hot room we talking about. Not some basic hell. A room that predates the beyonders and serves as a power house for them.
Epic storytelling!
Only Grant Morrison can pen dialogue like " I exist to fix what is broken.
The tiger God is a God of fear. Even the Phoenix force has shown fear.
He specifically states all the time when he appears, "I am that which all fears in the darkness."
That's not saying that the Phoenix fears anything. That quote is saying it's the thing others fear.
You're wrong, the Phoenix never fears it lol, when they had a fight, the Phoenix overthrow the Tiger God lol
Until I see the pure phoenix force in action in several scenarios like the beyonder has done, I have to go give the victory to the beyonder for now.
Explain based on their power descriptions.
The Phoenix wipes out star systems and frightens Galactus and the celestials. The same stuff Beyonder has done. They did technically kill tribunal and eternity which was thought impossible but the Phoenix never wanted to outright kill them so who knows if she could.
nah and taaia was just a test for the befenders. true phoenix and wpotc would destroy beyonder
Blue marvel is 1 of my favorite characters
The Phoenix is all life including the beyonders. She exists outside even their realm which can mean their lives are still under her.
Even before this Ewing thing, people already knew it. People just don't have the wisdom to acknowledge that there's a divine essence that permeates the universe, that there's nothing it doesn't exist
I think it makes sense that the Phoenix force in the white hot room can defeat a beyonder. it is what's beyond the Beyond verse. Im assuming glorian can beat the phoenix force.
glarian cant
Blue marvel > Goku
Will never be Iconic they can make him as OP as they want will never be in Gokus level lol get mad
@@jace4223facts
Just had to take it there 🤷🏿♂️😂
@@jace4223 Oh not another die hard dbz fan 🤮
@@jace4223 Giorno > Goku
Beyonder is a life it is alive. The Phoenix gave it life
It's the Phoenix Force! The totality of all life force there ever has been, is, or will be, cast into a fiery, Omniversal being. It's whole theme is resurrection, how do you truly defeat that?
Heck Yeah!
Hi Rob commenting from the UK here, could you please do a video on the history between two of marvels greatest villains, Dr Doom and Magneto. I remember the first time I saw these guys meet was during the onslaught saga when Doom joined the good guys to defeat onslaught and sort to align himself with Magneto until he realised it wasn't the Magneto he knew but was in fact Joseph. The two sqaredd off and Doom spoke with a admiration toward his fellow villain. I always thought the two had a lot in common as Doom ruled latveria and Magneto went on to rule genosha. Also I know they met during the acts of vengeance saga(which I'd also love to see a video on) and one time before that when Doom tricked Eric during a toast at dooms home in latveria. I'm pretty sure they've met a few times since then so if you could break down there relationship in one video as two of the greatest bad guys that would be great. Keep up the good work
Oh no, Rob out here stirring the pot.
Comics Explained, do you have a video on Highfather from DC, like a Beyond Omega Level video on him ?