Hi, loving these ranking/tier reviews of the Old World-it's awesome and I'm fully enjoying them! 😊 One very small point I'd like to raise (and it's more of a nice-to-have) is that sometimes there seems to be an assumption of knowledge about how units are kitted out or specific builds. For example, if a Bale Taurus would be T8 anyway, it would be great to hear a bit more about why for those of us who aren't power gamers or don’t attend multiple tournaments. It would really help casual players like me understand the reasoning behind the rankings. Thanks again for the great content! Keep up the great work 😊
Thanks for the kind words! I do try to explain what things are as we go through, but I definitely do miss some things. I'll try to make sure I explain as many as possible in the future!
Hammerhand is pretty cool on Plaguepriest on Furnace, as he debuffs enemy T by -1, suddenly you have 2d3 effective S5 hits with -2 AP. And he can cast it quite reliably if there's no enemy wizard to dispel it. So even at lvl1 Priest can just YOLO cast it for 30pts.
Vortexes such as spiritual vortex doesn't immediately stop you from giving ground since vortexes can't be placed touching units. So there is always a tiny gap between the unit's position and the vortex that they have to give ground with. If combat goes again from that position, then the vortex would prevent give ground.
So 2 things about the dark elf lore. #1 reducing the BS of ushabti greatbows or a Dwarven gunline bunker with that nasty thane in it: situational but very good. As far as I'm aware it is the only thing in the game that can make tomb king shooting less good. #2 If you're running 2x battle magic lvl 4's one with lore familiar and one with tome of furion and take 2x black horrors, that's 4 vortexs on the field. Using the focus familiars extra 12" range, you can cast those and just hang back out of dispel and watch the carnage unfold. I would put it in C personally.
I think Daemonology is a lore that is very army dependent. For instance, skaven love it. A greyseer can be in a unit of stormvermin buff them up, and then run to the back of the formation.
The best doppelganger caster by far is the vampire count: can consistently get +4 to cast, str 5 base and access to a GW, can get a flying t6 mount for 120 points or go all in for the zombie dragon (better at 2.5/2.25 etc than 2k). 2d6 st7 ap2 auto hits is an entire star dragon worth of offensive output. Plus ws7 makes glittering robe much better.
@@sclarke6969 I'm assuming you're taking a mortis engine, and making it the general. That gives it an 18'' bubble of +1 to cast, brining the level 3 vampire up to +4.
Worth noting that the Lord of Change does the same thing but has S6 base and flaming, so does that same output with +1S and situationally ignores regen. Or select the hand weapon for S6 no AP (with the Aether blade gift it completely ignores armour). So I will say that there is real competition out there! Vampire Count can also take the 5+ killing blow sword to absolutely delete units of monstrous infantry/cavalry though lol.
One problem that came up for me when I was using High Magic, Fury of Khaine doesn't just give an extra attack, it gives you the extra attacks (1) special rule. Does that work if a unit has additional hand weapons? As that also gives what seems to be the same special rule and shouldn't stack?
Big fan of my chaos sorceror lord on chariot with daemonology. The self buff of attacks, strength and ap makes that chariot charge brutal! Also flying foresaken/ chaos ogres 24" is hilarious. Great counter to artillary hills
Remember that impact hits are made at base strength. Daemonic Vessel also only applies the extra AP to the weapons of the model, and impact hits don't use a weapon profile, so they are essentially unaffected by the spell. Of course the rest of the model get buffed, so it's still OK strong.
I'd probably put Dark Magic under "build around". Biggest reason is unlike Necromancy, you can cast Word of Pain into a melee, and it has just enough more range to make it work. Plus, Battle Lust is a really flexible buff all-around, since it doesn't require Range: Self. The ability to yo-yo solo heroes is also quite handy. Shame its signature is so underwhelming though 😂
Illusions best caster is of course, a High Priest on dragon in mortuary cult. Gobble up some wounds to boost your casting on everything. Glittering robe stacks with the built in -1 and the casket you'll want to run. Dragon movement allows you to position aggressively for column. The stacking modifiers to hit allow doppelganger to usually win combat with flail of skills or serpent staff, and the charge will get you in position for mirage on the following turns. Always take glittering robe on the dragon guy.
@@clearym8040 An honorable mention goes to the Necromancer on Mortis Engine. Doppelganger on a Sword of Kings is capable of wiping out Pegasus blocks among other things.
@@MagicJugglerabsolutely. Vamps can utilize doppleganger really well. Another honorable mention to the Lord of Change with S6 flaming, and a Great weapon Baseline for that sweet S8 AP-2 armourbane (1) magic flaming blast
Courage of aenarion is actually great. Obviously it's trash if you let it be dispelled but that's on you. You just take it on a lvl2 with a power scroll and pop in on a large unit of spearmen and then they'll be unbreakable for the rest of the game since the lvl2 is staying outside of the enemy dispel range
The opportunity cost for that is over 400pts for an unbreakable brick of 30 T3 5+ models that also uses a chunk of your Character points Even if you stay out of range your opponent has a 1/12 chance to dispel it on the Fated roll - which become about 40% over the course of the game. Then you have to keep the character safe but away from being shot - and if your opponent has a mobile caster the entire game plan falls apart
I think you underestimate the black horror, you can take it on lvl 2 mages, and sitt way of of dispell range, and cast it with 27" range to the center with a reroll in case of failure. meaning it starts in inside the enemy army a lot of the time.
How does spell familiar and lore familiar combo allow you to take 3 magic missiles???? I thought you could only take 1 signature slot between lore/faction
I do NOT want the 40K tempo of patches, tweaks and points adjustments. But... haveing Battle Magic nerfed. Haveing Dark Elves spells buffed. These things dont need to be huge. But atleast SOME pushes or pulls on the levers wpuld be welcome. An annual "patch" would be great. I dont even know how strong some lores are. Because everyone that can just runs Battle Magic...
How is curse of cowardly flight not terrible? Its a ld test which if they fail they dont even panic they just go back 2'', is there something im missing?
@@CloseOrder oh it forces a real panic test! Me and my whole group have played it as if the only downside is give ground, not as terrible as I thought then.
@@LordMacragge31 Yeah it a panic test so Undead (immune to psychology, which has immune to panic) and Slaanesh has immune to panic. They just give ground if they fail a LD test.
So the Summoning is worse (less consistent shots and worse AP) and also the rest of the Lore is a mixed bag. The way we rated the faction lores was based on the 1 spell you'd take every time - as opposed to a full Lore you have to generate spells for
@@CloseOrder The Summoning has a higher average sure their a 2.8% chance to get 2 hits or 5.6% to get 3 hits you could also get 11 or 12. If you look at the armies that can use Daemonology, IMO most of the time they will be using it over other lores. *Beastmen* Daemonology 99% Elementalism 1% Your only taking Elementalism for Plague of Rust or a chance to get double Hagtree Fetish with Wind Blast. *Chaos Dwarfs* Daemonology 75% Elementalism 25% Elementalism got Plague of Rust, Wind Blast and Earthen Ramparts but then Daemonology got Daemonic Vessel and Daemonic Familiars which is great for your flying sorcerer. Also Gathering Darkness with your artillery and The Summoning if your not going to use Storm of Ash. *Empire* Daemonology 60% Illusion 30% Battle Magic 5% Elementalism 5% No option to get a 5th spell and only get 1 lore familiar, so your signature spell comes super important. Cause if your going double wizard your most likely going to use lore familiar with Illusion. *Warriors of Chaos* Daemonology 66% Battle Magic 33% Pretty much going to go Daemonology unless your Tzeentch. *Skaven* Grey Seer Battle Magic 25% Daemonology 25% Elementalism 25% Illusion 25% Plague Priest Battle Magic 66% Daemonology 33% To many variables on how you want to play.
You've pulled some numbers out of thin air there! In real world terms Beastmen go pretty exclusively Elementalism and Empire casters skew pretty heavily into Battle Magic - as do most casters that can take it
@@CloseOrder The number were just my estimate. Why would a Beastmen players play Elementalism? 1) Flaming Sword is pretty bad 2) Plague of Rust is great 3) Summon Elemental Spirit is better then most vortex but not reliable. 4) Earthen Ramparts good defensive spell vs cavalry but limits your movement 5) Wind Blast good and can combine with hagtree fetish for a little bit more damage. 6) Travel Mystical Pathway not great as the lowest movement value is 5 As for Empire you could be right about Battle magic as I found a new trick is to take *Arcane Familiar* as you can roll for Battle magic then Daemonology giving you The Summoning as your signature spell. Overall I still think Daemonology is better for Empire but their time you might want to use Battle magic. *Adjusted Empire IMO* Daemonology 45% Illusion 30% Battle Magic 20% Elementalism 5%
@@grlmgortravel mystical pathway is a game winning spell. Lowest movement of 5 is fine, but read page 92 of the rulebook about ranges. When you move your models the 12”, only part of a base needs to be within 12” of part of one of the bases original position. You can get a truly massive distance, including a free choice of your facing. Next time you’re playing start picturing the situations you’re in and how that can change if one of your units suddenly moved ~15” in any direction with any facing and you’ll start to see how many situations it can be game breaking in. The real downsides are the 10+ cast value and the 9” range. The spell effect itself is devastating when used well.
Interesting comments, think you slightly overrate illusion, it can take you apart but the range is so restrictive. Necromancy was interesting, i love it for my Slann but its not very good for lizardmen. Specteral steed is useless. And we have horrific signature spells so dwellers being useless is a big issue. So 3 awesome spells and the rest are dreadful
Just a quick one: I am pretty sure that if a unit somehow gets 0 Toughness, they are considered dead. So Itchy Nuisance from the Lore of Mork has the potential to wipe out entire units with one good roll.
It has not, in the spell description it is written, that you can reduce the stats to a minimum of 1. But nonethelesse itchy nuisance is an awesome spell imo😊
Hi, loving these ranking/tier reviews of the Old World-it's awesome and I'm fully enjoying them! 😊 One very small point I'd like to raise (and it's more of a nice-to-have) is that sometimes there seems to be an assumption of knowledge about how units are kitted out or specific builds. For example, if a Bale Taurus would be T8 anyway, it would be great to hear a bit more about why for those of us who aren't power gamers or don’t attend multiple tournaments. It would really help casual players like me understand the reasoning behind the rankings. Thanks again for the great content! Keep up the great work 😊
Thanks for the kind words!
I do try to explain what things are as we go through, but I definitely do miss some things.
I'll try to make sure I explain as many as possible in the future!
Hammerhand is pretty cool on Plaguepriest on Furnace, as he debuffs enemy T by -1, suddenly you have 2d3 effective S5 hits with -2 AP. And he can cast it quite reliably if there's no enemy wizard to dispel it. So even at lvl1 Priest can just YOLO cast it for 30pts.
no rune lore, 0 out of 10, thats a grudging.
When the dwarf strikes your knee
Coz you didn't consider he
That's a grudling
Vortexes such as spiritual vortex doesn't immediately stop you from giving ground since vortexes can't be placed touching units. So there is always a tiny gap between the unit's position and the vortex that they have to give ground with. If combat goes again from that position, then the vortex would prevent give ground.
So 2 things about the dark elf lore.
#1 reducing the BS of ushabti greatbows or a Dwarven gunline bunker with that nasty thane in it: situational but very good. As far as I'm aware it is the only thing in the game that can make tomb king shooting less good.
#2 If you're running 2x battle magic lvl 4's one with lore familiar and one with tome of furion and take 2x black horrors, that's 4 vortexs on the field. Using the focus familiars extra 12" range, you can cast those and just hang back out of dispel and watch the carnage unfold.
I would put it in C personally.
I think Daemonology is a lore that is very army dependent. For instance, skaven love it. A greyseer can be in a unit of stormvermin buff them up, and then run to the back of the formation.
The best doppelganger caster by far is the vampire count: can consistently get +4 to cast, str 5 base and access to a GW, can get a flying t6 mount for 120 points or go all in for the zombie dragon (better at 2.5/2.25 etc than 2k). 2d6 st7 ap2 auto hits is an entire star dragon worth of offensive output. Plus ws7 makes glittering robe much better.
wheres the +4 to cast coming from?
@@sclarke6969 I'm assuming you're taking a mortis engine, and making it the general. That gives it an 18'' bubble of +1 to cast, brining the level 3 vampire up to +4.
Worth noting that the Lord of Change does the same thing but has S6 base and flaming, so does that same output with +1S and situationally ignores regen. Or select the hand weapon for S6 no AP (with the Aether blade gift it completely ignores armour). So I will say that there is real competition out there!
Vampire Count can also take the 5+ killing blow sword to absolutely delete units of monstrous infantry/cavalry though lol.
One problem that came up for me when I was using High Magic, Fury of Khaine doesn't just give an extra attack, it gives you the extra attacks (1) special rule. Does that work if a unit has additional hand weapons? As that also gives what seems to be the same special rule and shouldn't stack?
P. 165 cumulative special rules. Extra attacks alter the attacks characteristic, thus it stacks. No worries
Black horror isn’t pillar, but it’s still good. Only hurts enemies, save potential dangerous terrain check.
Big fan of my chaos sorceror lord on chariot with daemonology. The self buff of attacks, strength and ap makes that chariot charge brutal! Also flying foresaken/ chaos ogres 24" is hilarious. Great counter to artillary hills
Remember that impact hits are made at base strength. Daemonic Vessel also only applies the extra AP to the weapons of the model, and impact hits don't use a weapon profile, so they are essentially unaffected by the spell. Of course the rest of the model get buffed, so it's still OK strong.
@TheVacationist aye, thankfully I havent made that mistake. The extra 5 attacks is what makes it very good
I'd probably put Dark Magic under "build around". Biggest reason is unlike Necromancy, you can cast Word of Pain into a melee, and it has just enough more range to make it work.
Plus, Battle Lust is a really flexible buff all-around, since it doesn't require Range: Self. The ability to yo-yo solo heroes is also quite handy.
Shame its signature is so underwhelming though 😂
Great analysis!
Thanks!
My only issue with the analysis was that it was skewed a little by James playing Undead so heavily.
Illusions best caster is of course, a High Priest on dragon in mortuary cult. Gobble up some wounds to boost your casting on everything. Glittering robe stacks with the built in -1 and the casket you'll want to run. Dragon movement allows you to position aggressively for column. The stacking modifiers to hit allow doppelganger to usually win combat with flail of skills or serpent staff, and the charge will get you in position for mirage on the following turns. Always take glittering robe on the dragon guy.
@@clearym8040 An honorable mention goes to the Necromancer on Mortis Engine. Doppelganger on a Sword of Kings is capable of wiping out Pegasus blocks among other things.
@@MagicJugglerabsolutely. Vamps can utilize doppleganger really well. Another honorable mention to the Lord of Change with S6 flaming, and a Great weapon Baseline for that sweet S8 AP-2 armourbane (1) magic flaming blast
Courage of aenarion is actually great. Obviously it's trash if you let it be dispelled but that's on you. You just take it on a lvl2 with a power scroll and pop in on a large unit of spearmen and then they'll be unbreakable for the rest of the game since the lvl2 is staying outside of the enemy dispel range
The opportunity cost for that is over 400pts for an unbreakable brick of 30 T3 5+ models that also uses a chunk of your Character points
Even if you stay out of range your opponent has a 1/12 chance to dispel it on the Fated roll - which become about 40% over the course of the game. Then you have to keep the character safe but away from being shot - and if your opponent has a mobile caster the entire game plan falls apart
I think you underestimate the black horror, you can take it on lvl 2 mages, and sitt way of of dispell range, and cast it with 27" range to the center with a reroll in case of failure. meaning it starts in inside the enemy army a lot of the time.
Empire Warrior Priest Prayers not included but given they're utterly guff they go straight to F 😢
How does spell familiar and lore familiar combo allow you to take 3 magic missiles???? I thought you could only take 1 signature slot between lore/faction
2 (Tzeentch Fire, and Fireball...which is NOT a signature), and a Vortex that you control the direction of.
I do NOT want the 40K tempo of patches, tweaks and points adjustments.
But... haveing Battle Magic nerfed. Haveing Dark Elves spells buffed.
These things dont need to be huge. But atleast SOME pushes or pulls on the levers wpuld be welcome.
An annual "patch" would be great. I dont even know how strong some lores are. Because everyone that can just runs Battle Magic...
Yeah I think occasional tweaks are needed, but I wouldn't want whole new armies every month!
How is curse of cowardly flight not terrible? Its a ld test which if they fail they dont even panic they just go back 2'', is there something im missing?
They only give ground if their immune to panic.
Other wise if their 50% or above they fall back in good order or flee if their lower then 50%
It is, but I've also lost to it.
As Grimgor says you Fall Back in Good Order - which can take you out of position pretty badly
@@CloseOrder oh it forces a real panic test! Me and my whole group have played it as if the only downside is give ground, not as terrible as I thought then.
@@LordMacragge31 Yeah it a panic test so Undead (immune to psychology, which has immune to panic) and Slaanesh has immune to panic.
They just give ground if they fail a LD test.
Schools switched to number grades 20 years ago.
HA! That's not true (for the UK at least) since I left school 15 years ago
So you give *Lore of Chaos* S tier because of *Blue Fire* but *Daemonology* B tier even when it signature spell *The Summoning* is just as good?
So the Summoning is worse (less consistent shots and worse AP) and also the rest of the Lore is a mixed bag.
The way we rated the faction lores was based on the 1 spell you'd take every time - as opposed to a full Lore you have to generate spells for
@@CloseOrder The Summoning has a higher average sure their a 2.8% chance to get 2 hits or 5.6% to get 3 hits you could also get 11 or 12.
If you look at the armies that can use Daemonology, IMO most of the time they will be using it over other lores.
*Beastmen*
Daemonology 99%
Elementalism 1%
Your only taking Elementalism for Plague of Rust or a chance to get double Hagtree Fetish with Wind Blast.
*Chaos Dwarfs*
Daemonology 75%
Elementalism 25%
Elementalism got Plague of Rust, Wind Blast and Earthen Ramparts but then Daemonology got Daemonic Vessel and Daemonic Familiars which is great for your flying sorcerer. Also Gathering Darkness with your artillery and The Summoning if your not going to use Storm of Ash.
*Empire*
Daemonology 60%
Illusion 30%
Battle Magic 5%
Elementalism 5%
No option to get a 5th spell and only get 1 lore familiar, so your signature spell comes super important. Cause if your going double wizard your most likely going to use lore familiar with Illusion.
*Warriors of Chaos*
Daemonology 66%
Battle Magic 33%
Pretty much going to go Daemonology unless your Tzeentch.
*Skaven*
Grey Seer
Battle Magic 25%
Daemonology 25%
Elementalism 25%
Illusion 25%
Plague Priest
Battle Magic 66%
Daemonology 33%
To many variables on how you want to play.
You've pulled some numbers out of thin air there!
In real world terms Beastmen go pretty exclusively Elementalism and Empire casters skew pretty heavily into Battle Magic - as do most casters that can take it
@@CloseOrder The number were just my estimate.
Why would a Beastmen players play Elementalism?
1) Flaming Sword is pretty bad
2) Plague of Rust is great
3) Summon Elemental Spirit is better then most vortex but not reliable.
4) Earthen Ramparts good defensive spell vs cavalry but limits your movement
5) Wind Blast good and can combine with hagtree fetish for a little bit more damage.
6) Travel Mystical Pathway not great as the lowest movement value is 5
As for Empire you could be right about Battle magic as I found a new trick is to take *Arcane Familiar* as you can roll for Battle magic then Daemonology giving you The Summoning as your signature spell. Overall I still think Daemonology is better for Empire but their time you might want to use Battle magic.
*Adjusted Empire IMO*
Daemonology 45%
Illusion 30%
Battle Magic 20%
Elementalism 5%
@@grlmgortravel mystical pathway is a game winning spell. Lowest movement of 5 is fine, but read page 92 of the rulebook about ranges. When you move your models the 12”, only part of a base needs to be within 12” of part of one of the bases original position. You can get a truly massive distance, including a free choice of your facing. Next time you’re playing start picturing the situations you’re in and how that can change if one of your units suddenly moved ~15” in any direction with any facing and you’ll start to see how many situations it can be game breaking in. The real downsides are the 10+ cast value and the 9” range. The spell effect itself is devastating when used well.
Interesting comments, think you slightly overrate illusion, it can take you apart but the range is so restrictive. Necromancy was interesting, i love it for my Slann but its not very good for lizardmen. Specteral steed is useless. And we have horrific signature spells so dwellers being useless is a big issue. So 3 awesome spells and the rest are dreadful
Just a quick one: I am pretty sure that if a unit somehow gets 0 Toughness, they are considered dead. So Itchy Nuisance from the Lore of Mork has the potential to wipe out entire units with one good roll.
It has not, in the spell description it is written, that you can reduce the stats to a minimum of 1. But nonethelesse itchy nuisance is an awesome spell imo😊
Oukt is right, although I think you could combo it with another spell if you could get another source of -1T to kill something
@@oukt237 Ooooh it does too! Damn lol
@@CloseOrder good point, worth looking up