Sand or no sand? The answer to the great bare bottom vs sand debate | EP7: Ten Year Tank
Вставка
- Опубліковано 15 лип 2020
- Today we bring some closure to the endless debate between bare bottom reef tanks versus live sand reef tanks and finally decide what The 360 is going to get....sand or no sand? Planning for a tank to last more than a decade requires a mountain of thought and consideration for each choice we make. Ryan and Randy share why they chose sand or bare bottom for The #TenYearTank!
Don't miss a single update from behind the scenes on Ryan's Facebook Page!
/ brstvguy
The 360 Dream Tank Live is our new approach to documenting the real challenges nearly all reefers encounter when setting up a reef tank, from the point of view of Ryan and Randy as they setup Ryan's 360-gallon Reef Savvy tank in his personal home. Decisions on plumbing, lighting, flow, filtration, livestock, water chemistry, maintenance and MORE are all based on Ryan's personal beliefs and reefing knowledge he's accumulated over 15 years of keeping saltwater aquariums. Follow along closely, because there are certainly hidden gems in each 360-Live episode that you won't want to miss!
Legal Stuff
The purpose and content of this video is to provide general information regarding the products and their applications as presented in the video. Aquatic sales solutions, inc. And its officers, directors, employees and agents disclaim all express or implied warranties, in any way, related to the products and their application as presented in this video, make no representation or warranty regarding the products and the application as presented in this video and shall not be liable for any direct or indirect losses or damages of any type, including but not limited to punitive damages, or from personal injury or death resulting from or in any manner related to the video, and the products in and contents of the video. The viewer expressly agrees that aquatic sales solutions, inc. And its officers, directors, employees and agents shall not be liable for any damages or losses related to the products in and content of the video and hereby agrees to hold the foregoing harmless from any such losses or damages. - Домашні улюбленці та дикі тварини
I know this is an older video, but it is SUPER helpful on me deciding how I want to set up my first tank. Really good content here.
Bare bottom tanks remind me that I'm walking around in Pet Smart!
The fact that Ryan has mentors blows my mind
My 2 cents. Sand actually adds a cushion for longevity as well as increased bioload. Try this- shut down your skimmer for a week on a tank with sand and a week on a tank without. The tank without will start going downhill a lot faster. Sand adds additional biological filtration potential. You can also increase bioload in a tank with sand quicker than a tank without unless you are very methodical about maintaining your skimmer and/or refugium.
You have less water volume in a tank with sand.
Another great vid. It amazes me how well you work together. Like a couple of tennis pros. As for the sand issue, on my 20th tank now and these days I do just enough special grade sand to cover the bottom for aesthetic purposes and for my sandsleepers (wrasses). Either way you go, it will definitely be successful because you won't allow it not to. Congrats Ryan!
44:55 - This clinched it for me. I watched the 52 Weeks of Reefing series as a primer for planning my first saltwater build(going to start Christmas 2020!). And looking at the tank behind you in this video versus the initial setup with sand, there's absolutely no comparison.
In freshwater tanks, I always decided sand or no sand based on the occupants. I had an Asian arowana tank for several years, and that fish was the centerpiece of the tank. It looked great in a completely empty tank, with just some pieces of dark grey tile on the bottom. When I built my discus tank, I wanted to create a slice of an Amazon tributary, and that absolutely required a sandy substrate.
My first - and hopefully only - saltwater tank will be a reef. I'm not a super experienced diver, but most of the reefs I've ever seen have sat on a sand bed. Therefore, I know mine will as well.
Now I'm just trying to reconcile my love of the look of a very fine sand bed with my desire to grow SPS coral, with the added complexity of wanting to do it in a peninsula style and leave the other three panes of glass unobstructed for viewing.
Thanks for being such an informational foundation for this hobby I've had my tank for 9 months now and wouldn't have had the confidence to do it without you guys
Glad to help! 🙂
Thanks to your previous sand video, I squirted all the sand with a blaster and it was dirtyyy even though fairly new. Used filter floss and a spare canister filter plus prime to clean it. Tank’s looking better already - love the information you guys provide and I’m sure my tanks do too.
The habitat thing is huge for me. I don't want a tank for ten years if I can't keep fish I enjoy.
No matter what coral or fish you have swimming around, all I see is a black back and black bottom. You might as well stick a 4'x2' black picture on the wall. The white sand adds that 3rd dimensional contrast that brings the tank to life.
Hey guys, thanks for mentioning my (old) tank at 4:05 well appreciated!! Cheers 🍻
I have a super deep sand bed. About 3 to 4 inches. I stir it all up once a month to once every two months. I just let all the crap flow into the filter sock. The only problem is that the glass below the sand bed is almost impossible to clean. However, on a much smaller tank I have, I used some black silicone to hide the sand bed portion and you never see the sand from any angle but the top.
My sand sifting gobie is like my dogs I love him that much!! Keeps my sand clean. I don't get the no sand.
I agree if you have a sand cleaning organism the sand stays clean. I use 1 Diamond goby in my 120 and tiger tail cucumber sin all my other tanks with sand.
Mmmmm.... are we going back to under-gravel filters like the '70's?? Why not; it worked!
I've personally been debating for months as I order and build my own system.
I finally settled on two tanks in one system.
One reef tank for high flow/bare bottom SPS.
The other a lagoon for deep sand and the stratification of obligate anaerobic bacteria and a variety of infaunal invertebrates.
I get that it would be difficult with your scape to clean the sand in the middle, but sand is so much more beatiful than barebottom. You could place a goby cave in the middle where you can't reach.
Can't imagine no sand. Sand sifting starfishes etc.
On a peninsula tank, And maybe some other tanks. Look at running pvc pipe under the rock for return water with a good flow rate. With some thought and power tools the water could come out of the end rocks.
Got me thinking at 29:58 why dont we put sand in reactors?
After watching a beautiful thriving tank disintegrate after a couple years from the sand getting locked up with gunk, I will never have sand again. My current bare bottom tank just passed a year and I have never had such a clean tank. I have black textured ABS bottom that is now covered with 5 different colors of corralline, which I think is beautiful. Ryan's experience shows.
Sand bed locked up with gunk is on you!!! Put sand sifting critters in and clean your sand bed instead of ignoring it!
Canadian Infidel I siphoned my sand every Saturday with my water change religiously. The cyano just took over and would not go away no matter what I tried. Once I tore it down and upgraded, the brown sludge that was underneath my rocks was amazing. This was a several thousand dollar 40g setup. I know part of the problem was water volume. Now with 3x the volume and bb the tank is just so much healthier in my opinion. I don’t worry about success after the three year mark like the last tank anymore. Sump is full of marine pure and tank is blanketed in purple.
@@fasttlife1807 cyano is a sign something is wrong.
And whatever is was.
It wasnt the sand👌
Get Josh on to do a Q and A....great chat and im happy to hear your going with sand it will complete that awesome hardscape 🍻
Thanks for these material.
RYAN!! Flat Base rock in the center of your 360 chiseled to fit around the base of your rock structure. Bond all the base rock together to form a 2 to 3 inch high island in the center. Find someone with a missionary band saw to make your own if need be. This way you only have sand to clean around the outer areas. This would allow for more flow blasted down the center from the back. Best of both worlds and all the great sand critters, but most of all I'd get to see it in action before I build my my new tank :-) I too struggle with sand or no sand. Just closed on what will be at least a 15 year home so watching this series for my new build. Will your tank have a hood? If so you could install a closed loop that fed down from the top from the hood for more flow and no sand to disturb in the center.
Regarding pumps on the end of peninsula tanks: I see a lot of people try not to put pumps there. But was the tank grows out and progresses and needs more flow, I see a lot of people succumb to having to eventually put pumps on the end.
For your tank Ryan I think it’s definitely most sensible to go no sand
Super fine sand is a pain initially. Over time it will compact and not get blown around. Patients is key. Obviously carful flow pump placement must be fine tuned. You will also want to set flow pumps on a low setting after sand vacuuming for a few hours to prevent it being suspended.
i don't think i've ever changed my mind so many times in one video... i still can't decide! haha
It's a hard choice because nobody can tell you definitively which one is "better." I'm a big fan of sand myself and am not sure I could ever keep a reef tank without it. The looks alone seal the deal for me, even if I have to do a few extra minutes of maintenance on it each week 🙂 With Ryan's busy schedule, he opted to go bare bottom to reduce the amount of maintenance he'd have to perform on the tank. Neither choice is wrong!
No sand in tank..all sand in filter. Job done!
Please just put the sand in Ryan and see where the bald spot occurs and just fill that area with a bit of heavy grade sand/rubble....result being you get the tank you wanted instead of being faced with the bare bottom grimness every time you look at the tank
Well done guys.
Excellent show!
Sand builds up anaerobic bacteria witch completes the cycle. So for me sand is impotent for the life of the aquarium. Bear bottle tanks are more prone to crashing and have a longer recovery time. Sand plays a massive part in aquarium filtration. It also completes the overall look So it has to be sand for me. The only way I would go bear bottom is if I was going to add a large refugium to hose the anaerobic bacteria and sand but the refugium would need the be the same footprint of the main display. Which for most people would be impractical.
I have contemplated the idea but not being able to have sand dependent livestock is a deal braker for me.
Marine pure blocks?
@@lilreefer6986 well to get the same effect and the amount of anaerobic bacteria to complete this cycle you would need around six blocks for a 6‘ x 2‘ by free for aquarium so by the time you’ve got those blocks paid the money you may as well go on with sand. It doesn’t have to be sanding the main display but at least send somewhere within the sump.
Is there sand in the ocean?
I have watched ur vids for a week straight lol ... Info todeath before i set up ...
Seriously, no sand, is this even a question? You want sand, your fish, corals, and all organisms in the tank will thank you for it.
Can you do a test or somthing on Using fish, inverts etc to manage sand matinance that would be very interesting :)
I would have put my house on you going for sand bro. At least this way you can change to sand if you want to. Which I think you will 😄 For me sand is a must as I just love how it looks. Either way, I’m so excited to follow the progress of this build. Scape looks totally awesome!!! 😀
There are other flow options for peninsula tanks. Farmboy reefs has a nice solution for flow on the open side.
I had sand the first year on my 240 gallon and took it out because it got all covered in nasties. I have a 50 gallon tank with no sand now and the first year seems to be much easier to clean. Just scrape it and bam its all clean. UV sterilizer is a must for first year no sand tank.
36:27 this is not discoloration, this is glass thickness shadowing....
Great video 👍
I don’t know much about reef thanks
But when I go diving, I see the coral is up higher on the rocks off the bottom from the sand were the sand does no really interact much. Just my two cents.😊
As long as you maintain the sand, definitely sand. Looking at a nice aquarium with sand can immerse you more that you're in reef environment. Bare bottoms reminds me too much of a frag tank in a local pet shop.
If your tank crashes, it's never the sand's fault. That's your fault.
your advices helped me all the time ..keep go buddy
do something for shipping to india
Can we discuss a fishless tank please?
I started a 27 gallon bare bottom, none of the issues you mentioned regarding cycle, its 5 months old growing corals and coraline algae
lol you're garbage to even have a bare bottom. fucking loser and lazy
Ryan, no your dream peninsula, use pvc pipe connected to a pump next to the overflow. direction is easy to manage, it can be buried under sand and or rock. Your peninsula is going to have a peninsumountain of live rock, just make sure you leave a compartment and a top so you can maintain/remove it. I've done this multiple times for various reasons, and it always works great. I bet you could use it in a sandless tank if you use dark/black pvc.
Very interesting sand debate guys. My 150 gal tank is at the 10 year mark with sand. Most of my visible sand is occupied by coral except for where the cinnamon clowns have dug it out. Cleaning the sand is very hard and almost impossible. I have relied on Nassarius snails, sand sifting starfish to do the cleaning. I’m I lucky to get away with it, maybe but the results have been fairly successful.
In my latest tank I kept sand in it for first few years, then siphoned bulk of it to corner of sump with no detriment to tank.
Can't remember the last time I have seen a bare bottom ocean reef...
We aren’t keeping an ocean. We are keeping corals in a glass box
@@fatheadedfish the goal is to make it look like how it looks in the ocean for me , that’s why I love sand
@@randyp5029 Exactly my thought. I don't know why some people are so passionate about it haha. We can all simply agree to disagree and choose as we please.
I currently have 50/50. I like sand for many reasons (looks, stuff living there, aso) but I have given up on keeping it evenly distributed throughout the tank and wanting loads of flow. So I made peace with bare spots. I just fill them with coral and enjoy the places the sand gathers 🤷♂️ … will see how it goes
As for easthetics, if you could add unlimited amounts of flow to a tank with sand. would you still go bare bottom?
Can you please do a walk through of the setup for the ULM E170? Can’t seem to find any details on the equipment or filtration. It’s an amazing tank.
Look up the WWC/BRS hybrid method :)
have a 300 g 18 year old sps dominant system with a deep sand bed all these years, tank is still thriving, however i have had to replenish sand over time, a bag here & their as needed, can only vacuum a little in the front of the tank, as corals grown over the years.
Sand itself has it's own contribution. Personally I love having nassarius snails, etc., as part of the life in the tank as much as anything else. If you don't have a reason aesthetic or otherwise bare bottom is obviously way easier to take care of lol
Theres nothing like adding food and watching your horde of nassarius rise
I’m all in for sand and no I’m not gonna maintain it but maybe once a year i don’t like running hoses or buckets or anything i have everything plumbed so i just turn valves for water changes. If i had to siphon i would clean it. I will have tanks in my new fish room that will be no sand but only because it’s for frags and new corals
I have critters that actually depend on the sand.
Sand all day. No sand just doesn’t look good. Maybe looks good on the 360, but I always prefer sand and I have high flow (using special grade n some pink).
I take it back I shouldn’t say it doesn’t look good! Lol In most cases I don’t think it does with a few definite exceptions. I’m sure the 360 will look phenomenal. Looking forward to seeing some updates and watching the corals grow.
@Bulk Reef Supply The only logical answer to high flow in a large peninsula, avoiding the sand issue, is a closed loop at the far end pointing backwards.
I've had two peninsulas, the first was with sand and it was a living nightmare. The second is bare bottom (painted black bottom glass) and it's been amazing, but I miss sand. My next tank will be closed looped peninsula with sand. Easy fix.
I've used sand in my display tank, but in my quarantine/coral grow out tanks, I've kept them bare bottom. One less element to worry about, but I defintely see the difference in growth when the coral is put it in the display(with sand and its extra filtration) and when it's in the tank without sand. I've dealt with the growing pains of not having sand. Hoping this is the year of bacteria, as Ryan stated at the beginning of the New Year, and we're able to learn and watch the results of some of these newer options and what they can do to help when issues like this arise. Keep up the great work guys and thanks for sharing the journey 👍
Noo!! Ryan - You are suppose to be the guy to prove to the community that you can produce the same results as the E170 on a large scale with sand. You have been team sand from the start. Everyone with large sps tanks in majority always go super flow no sand. We need to get creative and figure out how to achieve similar flow or just enough flow with sand.
I'd like 1/2 and 1/2 ina. Tank not sure how practical it would be but half sand in a semi L shape and half bare bottom covered in zoa's and other corals etc
Solved, I have both ;)
Use a fluidized sand filter and have all the flow you want
you guys should do a test with black box lights vs good lights to see if the cheap lights cause unwanted hair algae and diatom growth
id be curious to see a bare bottom tank with more surface area in the sump or filtration via some rock or a tumbler with sand or any of the many other options to prevent some of the first year problems.
It does
Was anyone really surprised? If you watch the WWC/BRS hybrid series you knew.
Really want to try abs bare bottom for my next tank, dont think anyone in aus has done this but I'm still keen.
gone fishing I did..a year old and covered in corraline. Do it!
Ugh, so disappointed you're going bare bottom. Remember to say goodbye to your sand sifting friends!
I would have liked to see Ryan go with sand, but at the end of the day, it's his tank and I'll have to live with it 😜
@@BRStv well for sure, totally get that, definately happy for him and his dream build...he's just always been an advocate for sand, so was disappointing to hear.
Bare bottom for me , random strong strong flow , heavy feed , heavy filter. Live rock , small water changes.
I really thought Ryan was going to say that he would use sand the way this was going. Good choice! Bare bottom just works so much better for the long term. My own tank looks so much better without sand. IF I was going to do sand in a peninsula, I would 100% plan out the rock work first then drill for closed loop on the side pane. If you're not looking to do a super crazy blue tank, painting the bottom white looks quite nice too. Did this in my frag tank and I'm really happy with that. It just makes it easier to see where needs to be cleaned. Displays though bare glass works fine for me. Unless I'm leaning down looking at the tank I don't notice a lack of sand at all. I really don't think my tank would look much if any better with sand.
Just in case I ever change my mind I have several 5 gallon buckets filled with sand under my deck :) I have done it all, shallow, deep, super deep (Garden eel tank so up to 9" sand bed) remote ect. Bare bottom works best for me. However I'm not opposed to get a carpet anemone one day and putting it in a cube tank with sand or some other sand bed driven tank like the previous garden eel setup I mentioned. It's fine if you need it, but for most reefs you just don't.
Booo👎 we cant be friends anymore then. Lol
shallow sand with a sand sifting goby, no maintenance so far. I dont believe anyone can be cleaning the middle of the tank sand once your covered with corals. if you are doing sps only, then high flow with no sand makes sense
I’m a sand guy and so is my wrasse 👍
1:00:28 I got a cat and I got sand (Caribsea special grade, which looks even more like litter) > it actually is basically the same thing ! 😅
Im setting up a 35 gallon hex... could you show how your 30 gallon stick tank?
Thank you.
I was thinking why is sand filling with detritus not a problem with the ocean. Is there a way to mimic that
Does BRS's WWC method tanks have bio media in the sump? I started tank couple times with bare bottom and never have cloudy water. I just realized I always have additional bio media, either some bags of bio ring, or a block of marine pure. One of the BRS test tank also the case. So maybe the solution to the "difficult first year" is just couple blocks of marine pure. Easy enough solution.
Brightwell bricks in the sumps 🙂
You're talking 10 year tank. Won't all of that liverock lose its effectiveness in filtration years down the road when coraline encrusts it? Obviously it won't be 100% covered. Adding sand could prolong the filtration method. I also know you could add more filtration in the sump to counteract the eventual coraline but that is not the topic exactly.
I would think just the opposite- the more mature the rock the more biodiversity. Rock in the ocean could be hundreds or thousands of years old. It’s all made of old calcifying organisms. Coralline is also a porous calcifying organism and takes in nutrients just like all calcifying coral. Old purple covered live rock most people would probably agree is the most mature and biodiverse. Also, Marine pure bio media works amazing in a sump to add insane amounts of surface area when sand is absent.
going bare bottom if the habitat factor doesnt bother me so now what fish can i not have while not having sand
Reefs have sand. A reef tank this would require sand
You mentioned in one of your previous videos the issues you ran in to when you pulled the sand from the BRS 160. If a new reefer starts a new tank with sand with the intention of going bare bottom, do you not think they would run in to the same issue?
I do think you'd run into similar issues. If you plan on going bare bottom, our advice would be to commit to that from the start. Buying sand then removing it will not only help to destabilize the tank, but is also time consuming and expensive.
I watched a vid a few days ago where you said "defiantly" would never go bare bottom again. Don't know which vid was shot first, this one or the other. My first choice was bare bottom just because of the clean look. Maybe I can add more rubble rock in the sump along with bio bricks etc ???? to compensate for no sand????
Originally, Ryan had decided to go bare bottom, but recently changed course and added sand 🙂
I have a tank and the sand turned so clumpy so i'm undecided as to what to do with the new tank
I was so surprised you didn't go with sand, Ryan! So unlike you.
I guess if you want you can always change your mind later right?
Looking forward to the next episode.
what about a removable remote sandbed?
can you make a solo video on the red sea max tank and all its maintenance and traits?
We've gotten that request a lot lately. I'll suggest it to Randy, Ryan, and the rest of the video team 🙂
I do belive that ppl should begin tank whit sand then after a year Just pull out slowly the whole sand bottom ( doesnt matthers if you experienced or not ) sand help whit bacteria but can lead to higher no3-po4 , and taking all sand bottom out at once would impact too much the tank at the end
Sand just looks so good and I love the microfauna that inhabits a well established sand bed. But even with that said my next tank will likely be bare bottom.
What about having the sand in the sump inside filter bags ?
My sand is white, 0 maintenance. Nothing to disturb it, 3 Year, The only color is on the side of the aquarium. I think it's due of a mix between Bacteria/Zooplancton/Food giving.
2-4 cm of sand
How you do it?
@@tomg5405 I don't know, but I'm pretty sure its the bacteria type+nitrogen level related.
What about a reverse flow under gravel filter to keep sand clean? Thoughts?
Hmm...Interesting thought, but probably won't work the way you think it will. Hard to get an even amount of flow through the entire sandbed and we'd likely just end up fluidizing it if we could.
sand in the ocean , sand in my tank , sand in your underpants
Sand everywhere
Wow! Ryan went without sand!!? Whod a thunk it.🤔😋
Sand for sure. Bare bottom looks terrible.
Thank you. Barebottom is just a lazy ass fool who shouldn't have a tank
Tank in the background tells me a very interesting story. I guess I go with BB.
Why you do not have sand mixed with epoxy in the hard spot for cleaning and just sand around the rocks and places that you can access easy an clean it ?
Eventually that area would just get covered in coralline algae anyway since the sand wouldn't be moving at all.
40 gallon breeder with 2" of sand, should I remove 1\4 every 2 weeks until gone? will there be a change in parameters? THNX
Paint the Bottom White 🤷
If you want to run bare bottom the more clams the better even if they are in your sump they will help with the blooms
barebottom is lazy and fucking ugly. That just goes to show you that whoever runs bare bottom doens't want to take care of anything else. a lazy ass hobbyist
I did the same thing in my tank. No one mentions this but what about a fluidized sand bed?
Fluidized sand filters certainly work! Downside is that if you have a prolonged power outage, bad things can happen to your biological filtration.
I will never do a bare bottom, aesthetics matter
Purple algae looks better than sand.