the new hunger games prequel is genius and here's why 🐍 ballad of songbirds and snakes review
Вставка
- Опубліковано 17 тра 2024
- check out g2a: www.g2a.com/best-deals/best-g...
time for a deep dive into coriolanus snow from the ballad of songbirds and snakes and the hunger games and a review of his character! i have infinitely more thoughts that i could not possibly fit into this video, so i decided to just focus on how the state of nature debate influences snow's decent into villainy. hope you enjoy and let my know all of your theories!
00:00 intro
4:50 the importance of the opening scene
7:03 TBOSAS plot summary
10:31 sejanus plinth
14:50 dr gaul
22:07 snow forms his ideas
27:57 lucy gray baird
35:01 snow's nature
40:28 the final scene
sources
on veneer theory: shorturl.at/IY368
on veneer theory: shorturl.at/wCJZ1
Suzanne collins interview: shorturl.at/cwCI0
on the social contract: www.britannica.com/topic/soci...
on the state of nature: www.britannica.com/topic/stat...
on Hobbes: plato.stanford.edu/entries/ho...
on Rousseau: www.theguardian.com/commentis...
on Rousseau: plato.stanford.edu/entries/ro...
on Locke: plato.stanford.edu/entries/lo...
on Locke: shorturl.at/atzJS
on political philosophy: History of Political Philosophy, 2018-2019, Leiden University
🗝️ join my patreon for our book club + reader community: / thebookleo
🌼 s o c i a l m e d i a
• goodreads: / leonie-dams
• twitter: @thebookleo
• instagram: @thebookleo
• business enquiries: thebookleo.business@gmail.com
🌺 a b o u t m e
Hi! My name is Leonie and I am a 25 year old girl from the Netherlands who loves talking about books! From YA to non-fiction to classics, I read it all (although fantasy will always be my fave).
🌹 m u s i c
Music, art, and video by Jokabi
▸ / @jokabibeats
▸ / jokabibeats
▸ / jokabi.beats
▸open.spotify.com/artist/7F93s...
Download / Stream Lost Woods
▸ smarturl.it/LostWoodsJokabi
What I love is they set up Reaper to be this killer, this wild animal and brute and yet when he is “unleashed” in the arena he displays a kindness, empathy, and gentleness that Snow could never even hope to have.
He “buries” the others, even one’s who tried to kill him, and all the capitol audience sees is “he tore down the capitol flag!! Such disrespect, he’s obviously a monster!”
Yes, he showed respect for the dead.@@MistyWarden
And even in the moment of his death he tried to lift the flags over the others again.
Yeah I saw that kindness and empathy when he tried to kill Lucy Gray lol.
@@MistyWarden it's a very nice touch
Even long after the death of the US, the people living in the area haven't learned anything and venerate a piece of cloth above human lives
I love how unreliable Snow's narration is, in that everything is from his perspective so we have no idea what Lucy Gray's motivations and feelings truly were because it is all filtered through Snow's own desires.
the actors talk about that in interviews and they they were love but they still use each other to survive.
That was all I thought about, while reading it
Going by the book it was never about him loving Lucy, he was obsessive and possessive, but that isn't love. And finding she was a person not a toy in d12, he lost interest.
@@falconinthedive I think he is more sympathetic in the movies where he seemed to have a fondness for her and may have truly loved her in his own twisted way, but in the end, the moment that Lucy heard his recording during the hanging, she and us the audience still knew that Corio tragically loved his current lifestyle more than her.
@@KL-ki8db I think he only seems more sympathetic in the movie because we don't see/hear the internal monologue he has going on in the book. If we weren't let into his mind in the book either, he would probably seem nicer there as well. Although it wouldn't have been a very good book.
I found it so telling that, in the book, Snow thinks Reaper has gone insane because he lays the bodies next to each other and covers them up. I would think any halfway compassionate person would immediately understand why Reaper is doing what he's doing and that he is far from insane lol
Reminds me of watching detective shows and hearing psychologists explaining that laying the body a certain way shows remorse/compassion toward the person. Like covering their body/face, laying their hands over their chest.
Yup! It’s a mind-bend to read things the way Snow sees them.
i understood it was because reaper was vulnerable and risking his own life in the open field for that, that he got insane for just giving up on his survival and for snow auto preservation is key. Like in the movies they really portray that he just gave up, as an act of rebellion, to just stop fighting and not giving the capitol the entertainment they wanted.
@@thalitachristine1218I was gonna say that
@@Ashbrash1998 interesting ….
Reaper's honoring of the dead in the arena is, to me, the best example of what humanity really is like. Even in the worst situations, people can be kind
And such a direct contradiction to the philosophy of Dr. Gaul!
And along with the Hanging Tree song and Lucy also being for 12, Katniss honoring the death of Rue must have also been a call back to the 10th Hubger Games for Snow
Yeah, we have the good and the Bad, even horrible people can find a Moment of kindness, wonderful people can commit travisties, Some go Bad in the best circumstances and Some stay good in the worst . . . .we Always got both!!!
he was my favourite character. i literally cried reading when he died, and that’s rare for me😭
loved reaper, he was so upset that he apologized for future deaths to his district counterparts. especially important since he was a highly likely victor originally. he was a protector at heart, not a killer
What’s so funny is that Dr. Gaul theory on humanity is disproved so many times but she and snow refused to see it. Even when they are forced into these barbaric games, there is still characters who choose to do good. Reaper for example, arranging the bodies and placing the flag on top- pretty much defeats Gaul’s entire theory that we are inherently monsters. Katniss singing Rue the meadow song, another moment of humanity triumphing in the most dire circumstances. Tigress as well, maintaining her sweetness and gentleness even when she had to do everything to survive during the dark days. As a scientist, Dr. Gaul is looking for specific evidence that only fit her theory, rather than seeing what the evidence actually point to- which is ironically the biggest folly in the science community
confirmation bias!
The story as a whole seems to show that survival is the root of humanity, from which empathy and violence both derive. The arena is where we see they are not mutually exclusive, featuring moments of self-sacrifice, mercy killings, and respect for the dead as much as respect for life. Characters like Gaul refuse to see that and only acknowledge all the gore and cruelty, because that supports their worldview.
The most interesting thing is that I feel like she knows that! She's aware that her theory isn't foolproof. That's why she actively tries to shield the people from those moments by removing them. They don't fit the message. It's not just because they're rebellious acts, they show another side to human nature which she doesn't want the capitol citizens to see.
And the fact that Lucy chooses to save him during the bombing rather than run!!
Snow ignores all the love he is shown and instead is only ever looking out for himself.
I never though of it like that! And that’s what makes them villains, that they only see the worst in everything and justify themselves with it, only picking and choosing the evidence that supports their point.
I don’t think Lucy has any more connection to Panem anymore. I think she got away. She and whatever family she made are free while Snow remains haunted by the one thing he couldn’t control.
I suspect, that she survived and got away, but wherever she went, she told people about him, with what we learnnabout snow in this book has me convinced kat was deliberatly Chosen to Trigger him right from the start
So you're district 12?
If you say so. :)
@@arianewinter4266 she could have gotten away and made it all the way to 13, or she might have also just died out there. if she did survive coriolanus's temper tantrum, though, only her spirit lived on. nobody remembers lucy gray herself, but she lives on through katniss
she survived in order to sing the hanging tree to other people, at least, who would in turn pass it down to katniss’ generation. i think(i’m not sure though) that in the last book, katniss was singing this and it was said that it was a folk song known by people. @@ruefriend
@@monicad99 Lucy Gray mentions in the book that her cousin, Maude Ivory, just needed to hear a song once to remember every word. She also mentions that Maude would probably be the new vocalist for The Covey, since she was already being trained for that. The Covey stayed in 12, that's why that song and the one about the meadow was passed down generations...
I'm just starting to watch, but I really believe the theory Snow didn"t kill Lucy. He is going delusional. Lucy is able to escape him.
I mean she's supposedly katniss' ancestor(what with the song hints) sooo
Same I think it’s possible he may have shot her, but especially in the book it’s made pretty clear she escaped (sort of like a ghost in that sense, like in her song)
Also nahhh I don’t like the theory of her being Katniss’s ancestors, I think the music just became a part of district 12 culture since that’s where the covey was forced to stay for so long.
@@qishilin3660I think Maude Ivory (Lucy Gray’s covey cousin) is Katniss’s paternal grandmother. There is significant evidence for this theory
@ina7107 ah maybe, I don't really remember since I read the book soon after it came out and have not watched the movie
I wish the movie could’ve included Ma Plinth. She was also a huge example of human kindness to Snow and he completely just takes advantage of her kindness and almost looks at her as stupid for it. He basically kills her son and then takes his place in his family, having them believe he was their son’s only true friend like… if that’s not evil I don’t know what is!
100% agree. Ma Plinth deserved better, she was so sweet and kind and Snow treated her like dirt. It was such a good contrast in the book!!!
The worst part is near the end when it’s clear he doesn’t care that Sejanus is dead bc of him when he thinks to mail Sejanus’s box of belongings to his family and Snow adds “Maybe the cookies will keep on coming.” Like dude wow 😭
I love how ma feeds the Avoxes and shows genuine compassion throughout the entire book.
It proves that with people like Snow, you’re damned if you do and damned if you don’t. If you’re kind, it s “weak”, but if you are cruel, then you have to be “controlled”.
I really hate all his inner monologues about Sejanus' Ma. It really makes me hate him even more.
Ugh. I just love Sejanus. Not enough people talk about how truly awful his story ends.....he literally never learns what Snow did to him or that Snow never actually saw them as friends. Ever. It's more clear in the book. After Sejanus's parents die....he will be completely forgotten. Just like Lucy and the other tributes of the 10th Games. Even when Snow dies 60years later, no one will remember Sejanus and how he only wanted to help. I'm sick. He really was an angel.
Snow is Sejanus’ best friend, but Sejanus is definitely not Snow’s best friend. I adored Sejanus and his character, he gives me Peeta vibes. I love Peeta too, two great characters.
Yes, Sejanus' end is so sad. And we never really knew if he figured Snow's betrayal
It was amazingly brutal in the movie. I was utterly flabbergasted in the way they portrayed this.
Instead of Coriolanus learning in advance that Sejanus will be hanged, he learns it in a split moment. Instead of knowing before the execution that Sejanus dad can't rescue his son, it happens the very moment they're about to be.
And they played the recording. Sejanus hears the recording before he's executed, hears his words that condemned him in the eyes of the Capitol - and there could be two conclusions.
Someone could have overheard him and Coriolanus. Given however that he was very careful during this, Sejanus figures it out, but is unable to say, shocked by the betrayal.
He realizes before he dies that Snow betrayed him. He doesn't know how he recorded it, he doesn't know when - he doesn't know why, since Snow called him his brother.
It was also a good comeback for the jabberjays. Snow used them to record Sejanus plan - and they turn against him by repeating Sejanus last words over and over again.
I think the last shreds of Coriolanus, the part of him that somewhat cared about Sejanus, was torturing him for ages after this.
Sejanus was so annoying... nothing more obnoxious than an "activist" who has tho run their mouth about the wrongs od the world
@@whiteoctober4582 I also found him to be one of those who is all about "helping" with no care at the devastation that follows in his wake. Sejanus didn't give two shts about the consequences to his parents, to Snow, or to any of the District 12 families caught in the crossfire of his revolution. He's naively selfish in his altruism. He helped because it made him feel good about himself. As Taylor Swift says, "covert narcissism I disguise as altruism." lol
Love love how clearly it shows the projection of his motives he lays on Lucy. Like he assumes she betrayed him because if he was Lucy he would betray him. Its soooo clearly and well portrayed.
That killed me that he was so selfish that anything anyone did he would immediately start getting paranoid about what it meant to him. Like when Lucy pretends to still be with her ex when Spruce is holding a gun on her. Coryo is all “omg has she been lying about dating him all this time?!?” and all I could think was that I’d have told Spruce that I was a dancing dog if he had a gun on me 🤦🏼♀️
He continuously lie to himself he’s so great to cope with the fact he’s unable to love himself
exactly, he knows he is untrustworthy so he assumes everyone else is untrustworthy, just like dr gaul who thinks everyone is as sadistic as she is
I think this analysis just further proves how great of a character Katniss is because she is sort of the anti-Snow not just because she's rebel but her mindset. Katniss also went through trauma at a young age that made her distrust the world and often misinterpreted the kindness of others. Throughout the book she struggles between self-preservation and doing the right thing. But through her actions we see that deep down she is a compassionate person.
I know Katniss is kind of the ghost of Lucy Gray, but I also have fun comparing a protagonist to the antagonist.
Which makes her very unrealistic. In real world, it's more likely for people to become like Snow than her.
@@nont18411I disagree because she chose to be influenced by the correct people and not swayed to evil like Snow. Like Lucy Gray said, there’s a natural goodness built into all of us and we have to choose whether we stay good or cross the line into evil, and Snow chose evil because of the type of person he is. Katniss chose good because she chose to listen to the good people in her life and she’s a better person for that. She can identify the inhumanity and injustice while Snow adds to it
@@nont18411 Speak for yourself. There are plenty of real world examples of people staying good under the worst circumstances. It says more about you than humanity if you think it's more natural to act like Snow. Most people have a strong inate avertion to that kind of extreme evil
@nont18411 this discussion is the book 😅. Your claim sides with Snows philosophy. The book is countering that claim showing that the person assumes their internal dialog is what the world is actually like, ignoring or perhaps being truly blind to examples of kindness and strength against cruelty.
@@nont18411If that was true, Gaul and Snow would not have had to do so much to influence that kind of thinking in the capital
Gaul deleted the tenth hungrr games footage, so people would not see the humanity and character there
She and later Snow do so much to frame the narrative and the story as supporting their worldview
But they have to edit it, and that's the damning evidence
One thing i noticed is that while some of the capital students were monsterous towards and dismissive of the tributes as people
There are those who care, and or do feel empathetic to them
When Lucy gray is singing while facing the snakes
You can see even several capital students crying, or being affected by the scene of her singing in face if her death
And it's that sentiment that leads them to turn on Gaul and demand her release..
Casca Highbottom became a drug addict to dim the pain of the games, and all the childrens blood on his hands
He even admits he was trying tk kill the games
That kind kf sentiment was something that Snow stamped out of the capital by the modern hunger games
He had to change and propaganda the soceity so that level of humanizing and connection was not possible
And he had to do that becaue some people have that nature and that is dangerous to his view of control by oppression.
I think a lot hof the nature vs nurture debate is shown through Tigris, who saw the same things Coriolanus did, lived through the war in the same way and also did things she’s not proud of to have her family survive. She keeps being genuinely kind, but her cousin gets more and more twisted as time goes on. Her kindness is the only one Snow doesn’t twist to self-serving actions in his mind, but he’s so used to it he can’t see it as the lovely bit of humanity that it is. She’s also a big sounding board for him, and when he loses that he flies off the rails much more quickly.
I also noticed the tesarae chips the children can take on to fend off starvation is snow’s one true kindness later on- and it is a twisted version of Tigris’ genuine kindness when she remakes his shirt for him with the tesarae buttons and feeds him. Instead of feeding everyone the district children can only avoid starvation if they subject themselves to more tickets in the games. I believe his fear of starving lead him to act in the only way he knows how- tit-for-tat twisted and slightly inhumane.
Though I think it's also fair that Tigris wasn't tested the same way Corio was, in the sense that Corio had the responsibility of restoring the family. He was the one who had to lie every day to stay on top at university. Failing getting on top would mean that his family would starve, and that pressure was on him every day, poor sod.
Tigris also shares the responsibility of keeping their family alive. When Snow was too young to care for all of them, Tigris has to find out ways to keep their grandmam and snow alive, even resorting to prostitution. She was also in charge of cooking for the family.@@mindovermindfuck
@mindovermindfsnow himself mentions that Tigris did 'disgraceful' things but he knew she did it for him...Tigris being the older took care of coreo..he depended on her...and he trusts her as she's the only one who's kindness towards him he does not twost...he does not think of her as weak like he thinks od Sejanus and mrs. plinth
@@piya6929I think he does think she is weak, because he says that she has a kindness to her that lends her to be more vulnerable to abuse of others. Such as her apprenticeship with the designer, where she is payed pennies and made to massage her feet and tend to her and her drunken friends hangovers.
I love the edit of Lucy bowing and Katniss bowing in the same way to Snow. It really drives in the point of Katniss being the "ghost" (of Lucy) come back to haunt him.
She at least was set Up to be that I think, she is Just to good of a fit to Set of all His triggers for it to be coincedance
The parallels are great. When Lucy Gray left, she said she's going to get katniss. 64 years later came Katniss from district 12, singing the song Lucy Gray composed. "It's not over until the Mockingjay sings".
I think that's also perfectly portrayed in the movie's end credit song "Can't catch me now":
Yeah, sometimes the fire you founded
Don't burn the way you'd expect
Yeah, you thought that this was the end
even though Snow thinks he killed Lucy and Dr. Gaul did everything to erase her memory, her spirit and what she stood for echoes in Katniss and all the other rebels fighting for freedom.
THE GHOST OML I SOB EVERY TIME I THINK OF THE PARALLELS
I think another beautiful element to this story is how much Lucy Gray’s disappearance further influences Snow. He shoots at her in the woods, and finds an earring and footprints. but the silhouette he shoots at, is Lucy Gray in her reaping day dress. He’s paranoid, that he saw what he wanted to. and the not knowing if she survived or not, further drives his paranoia. We see in the original trilogy district twelve is fenced in. the woods are separated from the district by electrical fences - to possibly prevent Lucy Gray from returning, and also to prevent someone escaping Snow like she did. His paranoia is also evidenced by how strongly he despises Katniss, a girl from 12 who shares similarities with Lucy Gray. Katniss did not make any effort to start a rebellion. however, Snow’s deep mistrust and his efforts to squash any hope Katniss had, only further encouraged the rebellion that ended up being his undoing. Suzanne Collin’s is a genius.
Finally someone said this, i thought no one was gonna talk about how his paranoia affected how district 12 was affected in the future, Lucy gray definitely played a huge part in that because there was no electoral fencing that separated the woods and district 12, but when snow becomes president, he definitely separates the 2 because of that very reason, a huge detail that everyone seems to miss, I haven’t seen a video yet that talks about that and I’m happy that you said this !
I believe Lucy didn't die. I interpreted the book's title in a way, that it is Snow who is the snake. And we learned times and times again that snakes can't hurt Lucy, they won't kill her. So I actually do believe she survived the shooting.
In the film we see her running in the woods, but in the books we never find out if the noises Snow heard were Lucy or if it was all just his delusion. So maybe he didn't even point the gun at her? Maybe she hid herself somewhere, just as she did on the arena?
From what I understood from the movie, the outfit that Snow tried to shoot her in looked a bit different from the dress that she had on when she left, I believe that this scene showed Snow's hallucination.
Lucy Grey's fate is supposed to be unknown because she follows the mysterious path that her namesake from the Lucy Grey song does. Pragmatically, if there is no body then she's very likely not dead.
That I think is really clever is how ambigious her death or lack there of is, Adiditoinally, the songbird could refer to Lucy Gray - A beautiful singer, or it could refer to Snow - a man who uses jabberjays as weapons.
Similarly Snow could be the snake - A man who uses poison, lies and deception or Lucy could be - who is seen to use snakes as weapons mulitple times in the book
I feel that Snow chose to ignore all of the kindness and focus on human cruelry because his fear was stronger than his hope for a better future
It should also be noted thst kindness to him was a foreign conceot as well
Genuine kindess was rare and it was more quid pro quo
So he might even distrust kindness as being sincere.
@@mckenzie.latham91what to do if I feel this way?
@@vojacked305
Being careful is understandable, but do consider whether your distrust in kindness could be pushing it away, or causing you to misinterpret things.
Are people always expecting something in return?
Or do you assume so right away and refuse the gesture if you can't see their gain?
Also - *showing* kindness without expectations, even a little bit, is just as valuable as receiving it. It feels really good.
Not to be too cliché but I think what sums up Snow's refusal to acknowledge kindness as ""humanity at its true nature" is the fact that snow can only thrive in cold environment... thus love, compassion and care are only seen as obstacles to the cold, harsh "truth" he believes in.
such a great analogy! it's as if he knew inside that if he chooses to adhere to lucy grey's vision of the world, he would stop being the "exceptional being" he thinks he is destined to be, he would just be one amongst the crowd and it's something he couldn't bear. in lucy grey's world he is an anomaly but in dr gaul's he is a model of excellency
Kindness isn't humanity's true nature.
@@PandazillaaaWhat makes you say that?
@@shisexee the fact that human are animals and survival is in our nature. Kindness is a trait we developed as community animals. We are better at survival in group, a group work better when it's tightly knit, kindness and compassion help to achieve that. But at the end survival of the fittest, always.
@@kazuzart1582survival of the fittest but kindness means that it doesn't have to be the case. Maybe when we are in conditions that force us onto the same level of animals but even concentration camps or slave plantations, people were kind to keep each other alive. The ones that sold the group out never last long. The same way that lone wolves die much quicker compared to wolves in a pack.
I just love how Tigris is what truly shows us that it’s not just the society and circumstances that turn us evil, but the things we chose to see and not see and the conscious choices we make. As Snow’s cousin, she has experiences that are most similar to his. She too saw the horrors of war that Snow witnessed, she grew up in a similar environment, and yet she’s kind, she is compassionate, and she treats tributes with a lot of humanity. She shows Snow nothing but kindness, and yet in the book, from the very first chapter, we see that Snow sees her kindness and gentleness as weakness and in his head he is extremely hostile towards her.
Tigris and Snow, for me, are the most evident example that who we turn out to be is built on the choices we make. “You can step across that line into evil, or not.”
Yes bish
Would she be able to continue being kind without him doing "evil" to support her?
Well, Snow also had Dr. Gaul, who played a pretty big role in his future.
@@zesky6654 but how did his "evil" supported her? if we set aside the eviction the snow had to endure to the new taxes, she was the one who provided for the family, worked and put her life in pausa just so he could realize his dreams, while he was continuing his journey in the academic and caring about his own future and dignity she was trying to do something for both him and the grandma
But Tigris also played a part in the game before she played a part in the rebellion. Society and circumstances does not turn us evil but it still turns us to do things we might have not set out to do. And we have to live with that
He definitely did not kill her he shot at her and found her earring but she got away and the whole thing is that it’s a mystery what happened to her. Earlier snow asks what happens to Lucy gray in the song and Lucy gray says that it’s a mystery
And that she thinks she’s out there somewhere
I think I might be Miss remembering
It’s not entirely known if he hit her and she ran off and died, or if she didn’t get hit and was able to get away
^And even if she got away did she survive in the wilderness alone for however many months it would take to get to 13. When as far as everyone knew it was destroyed in the war, so would she even know about it. She would need a miracle to get there safely
@@islasullivan3463 I mean it seemed pretty clear that she knows how to live off the land. She doesn't necessarily need 13 to survive.
Dr. Gaul’s views frustrate me so much. How can you call what happens in the arena the reality of humanity stripped bare??? They wouldn’t be killing each other if they hadn’t been imprisoned in an arena and told they will only be allowed out/allowed to live if they are the last one standing. Their violence is forced upon them. I can’t comprehend how she can actually believe she is showing an example of the state of human nature
She's a psychopath and they usually have some fucked up views
That’s SO TRUE
Exactly my thoughts. Isn’t EVERYTHING about the circumstances? I always found myself uncomfortable with Hobbes’ ideas too, because if you dropped these kids in an arena without telling them only one can come out, I’m 80% sure they wouldn’t start killing eachother… then again, the Lord of the Flies exists, although I didn’t read that one to know enough about it.
Exactly! It's not like these people are put in there with the idea of "now do what you want", but it's just another highly controlled setting - especially with all the sponsors gifts and such. It serves only as an example of how humans act if they are put in a place where they have to kill to survive
I know! And what about the people who show real nobility and decency in the Games? Like Reaper? Lol, does she just choose to ignore that? Not everyone becomes a feral killer in there.
Not sure if you mentioned the fact that Snow's father is the one who started the Hunger Games idea... Thats a pretty big deal. Following in your father's legacy is considered a high moral virtue which can nullify many relationships, events, or even institutions.
This! In the earlier chapters of the book he hardly remembers his father except as an intimidating presence, but instead remembers his mother much more fondly, always returning to her compact for reassurance. It's like he aspires to be like his mother and wants to like music too, but it moreso for superficial reasons to keep up his charming persona (like answering questions to impress people) when actually he's absolutely terrible at literary analysis and resistant to liking most songs unless it's for his own personal benefit. However, then he goes and (encourages Lucy to) fill the compact with rat poison, and by the end of the book the powder turned to mush in the lake water and he tosses it in the trash, and only his father's compass is left of his mementos.
It wasn't his father's idea. Casca Highbottom (Peter Dinklage in the film) came up with the idea (as something so utterly horrible he thought there was no chance it would ever be used) I think while he was drunk. Snow's father stole it and actually turned it in.
This
In the movie, there is a really interesting epanadiplosis (parallel at the beginning and end), where at the beginning Snow remembers his father as a cruel, ruthless figure, and at the end he becomes his father and is proud of it. I found it fascinating that he was using about the same words and he acted very differently both times, growing proud of his legacy.
looking back on it, snow's death is ironic, iconic and completely fitting. he was killed by a mob, his own people. it feels sort of like his death only served to complete his thinking full circle ig? like he believes people are savage and evil, and the moment they don't have "Power" to control them, they fall to "Warre", at least in his mind. i can only imagine the monologue and thoughts he had while being killed
He's more interested in laugjing at how Katniss beats coin
To him, she becomes the victor, the survivor
Which fits in with his worldview.
Exactly! Self-fulfilling prophecy🙃
I'm not so sure the mob killed Snow. He was already sick and maybe dying, and when he laughs at Coin's death, he spews blood. I think there was something in the book that suggested that as well, though it's been a long time since I read it
@@loriar1027 yea he was already dying but his death would've happened later on if the mob didn't kill him right then and there
besides obviously being angry at all the pain snow caused, i always thought that at least some people in the crowd could see that he was dying and wanted to hurt him before he died naturally or unnaturally i guess cuz he died from poison but yk
This is why this book deserved to be a mini series. They could have dug so much deeper and explored the complext themes in the book, doing Suzanne Collins work so much justice. Id love to see you do another deep dive but into why the characters have the names they have.
Coriolanus being named after a Shakespeare play about roman solder who was betrayed by the people he trusted. And in that play his mother, who grooms him to be the evil that he is, her name is Volumnia as in Volumnia Gaul.
Coryo's father's name is Crassus, whose named after the roman general who played a key role in the transformation of the Roman republic into the Roman Empire. Same way that Snows father played that role through the legacy, the compass, the name, the phrases that Grandmam would quote back to him, etc
There are no coincidences in the names of any of Suzanne's characters. Capitol names are inspired by Ancient Rome. Distric 12 by food and nature (Katniss=Potato, Peeta=Bread, Gale=Wind),District 11 by grain(Thresh, Rue). There is so much to unpack in this alone.
Suzanne Collins is such a GENIUS
EXACTLY! I would love to see more fan-made (or even official) media around this book. There is so much symbolism and so many references, that I don't think that the book itself even unpacked all of the amazing ideas around Coryo's path to dictatorship.
The Roman Crassus was an overwrought rich man who bought his military career, but was killed at the battlefront where his generalship fell short of the glory he sought.
I wonder if this historical Crassus maps onto Crassus Snow of Panem?
I honestly think all the books should have been series. As much as I am emotionally attached to the og movies, there was so much to explore.
Actually, Katniss is a type of flower, also known as a sagittaria
There is also reference of the name of lucy gray to the William Wordsworth poem "the ballad of lucy gray" in the poem lucy a child sent out in a snow storm is never to be found again. With the only thing remaining being her footprints so no one really knows what happened to her or if she really died same as lucy gray biard. I also think it's cool that it's like if lucy died she died because of snow like if the book lucy she also died because of corolanious SNOW
Snow being betten to death at the end also just reinforces his view to him
It’s a self-fulfilling prophecy. If he treated them with kindness in the first place, nobody would have beaten him to death.
So slay
Maybe that’s why he laughs at the end.
Everyone involved did what he expected.
@@nont18411 a narcissist's whole life is a self-fulfilling prophecy so this is quite a good ending for him
I like the theory of Katniss being directly relate to Maude Ivory rather tan Lucy's. It makes much more sense to me!
I like to think that Katniss's father was the son of Maude Ivory. In the book it was told that he sung a lot and all the birds would stop to listen. Also, Maude Ivory learnt the Hanging Tree from a single listen, so she maybe taught it to Katniss's father, who then sung it sometimes and that way Katniss learnt it too.
Yeah it just seems more plausible to me
Also Lucy was never seen after that, people thought the major killed her. It doesn’t make sense for Lucy to be Katniss’ grandma, but Maude Ivory does.
Maude is Lucy’s cousin!
Yep me and a buddy did the maths after the movie and one of Katniss's parents would have to be around 60 to be the child of Lucy and Snow... possible for her father but big time unlikely
I re entered my hunger games era after 10 years and you're fueling it even more and I love it😂
im glad to be of service
I feel that so much - i forgot how big of a fan i was and now POW
@@greensunlight my friends are not on board so I'm happy to watch videos and fangirl by myself 😂
@@laradadic908 hahah omg I'm doing the same thing - the number of videos i watched is actually ridiculous :D
@@greensunlight I'm listening to audiobooks since I don't have physical copies and they are so good- even better than I remember
I think it's also important to highlight that Snow's evil isn't just "made" by his bad experiences. He was brainwashed institutionally from childhood and that side of him eventually overwrote his empathy and even changed his definition of empathy. He is able to do acts of kindness but he is still convinced of certain principles such as Panem being a good regime he must obey. In the real world, for instance, we all know people with horrible politics who will still occasionally help an old woman cross the street. I don't like the idea that authoritarianism can just happen because someone had it bad. It is often built by society. It's especially important to mention when we see what's being allowed to happen in Palestine and in other areas of our societies today. Evil is also institutional.
+
Yes, you hit it on the nail! We can't forget the reflection that this story is of our world.
Palestinians have television broadcasts where people in Micky Mouse costumes teach children how and why, to kill jews.
“There are so many instances where snow witnessed human kindness and chooses to ignore it.” This! When I was reading the book, I thought it was interesting that with all the things that he’d seen or experienced, it didn’t lead to compassion.
Loving this video! Been loving all the analysis for his character esp now with the book and movie!
Katniss, on the other hand, actively reminds herself of all of the acts of goodness she's ever seen another do to maintain her hold on reality...
I love mapping the changes in the games because of Snow's experience as a mentor to Lucy Gray, seen when Katniss and Peeta are in the games decades later. Some of them try to paint him as merciful, while they all really underline his controlling, manipulative nature. He notices that the tributes don't get fed, don't get a change of clothes, and are stuck in an animal habitat. Katniss and Peeta are fed the moment they get on the train, have a designer to make them a whole wardrobe to make them appealing, and live in the penthouse of a huge complex. Some of the children have obviously no fight training. There's now a suitable training center. The tributes often struggle in the arena because of lack of resources. Katniss gets sent gifts by sponsors. Lucy Gray went home with her life, but still had to work to make ends meet. Victors now have a home and a steady income. Lucy Gray got away, never to be found, before he could fully get what he wanted from her. The Victors now become mentors, are sold for political s*x favors, and can never stay out of his oversight.
I think it also all ties to making the game a show for the capital. Tributes are pampered like a pig before Christmas because they need to be appealing to the Capitol, they need to be handsome and strong and smart to have a good note and attract sponsors. They also need to be extravagant, to fit in the Capitol's mindset - people would not be interested in dirty children, but they are interested as well-dressed and well-plucked children going to war (they may believe there is a sense of patriotism to the Games as well).
I read the book a long while ago so my memory is a bit rusty but the part at the end when his mothers scarf and that powder that always smelt like her were ruined but snows fathers compass remained intact really mirrored how he went from being very close to his mother in the beginning of the book to being very alike his father and now seeing him as a role model
You are a genius
The compact powder represents compassion and kindness and the compass represents control and order.
Snow saw that the powder (compassion) failed and became useless, while the compass (control) remained whole and unblemished. So he chose control.
Great essay! Though there are some things I interpreted in a different way, more pro-'tabula rasa' so to speak.I think Coriolanus was not born cruel nor paranoid. It's his upbringing that made him this way. A special boy, a hope to restore Snow's family fortune and glory. - I think something like this was whispered to his ear. They were still seen and treated as aristocrats when he was a child. And though their family friends shared the same status, they were not starving. But their family did. And these dissonant, contradicting messages must have nurtured this extreme narcissism. Like he was special but deprived of what he had 'deserved', and now he feels entitled to it.
I agree
yeah, i was thinking along the same lines. what does being a good person get him in this world? the same fate as sejanus? or a continuous life of starvation and struggle?
but he knew he was good at something, his ideas in pertaining to the hunger games were useful to the game maker. if he leaned more into that he could have fame, fortune, everything. and in the end, he did.
I perceive Snow as a narcissist who is also extremely insecure. He feels entitled to privilege because of his family’s legacy, however he’s deprived of it. He does not sympathise with the districts, even though his circumstances are somewhat similar, because he perceives himself as someone more important. Snow is insecure about his background and upbringing as well as his inability to connect with people and make people effortlessly like him. Lucy Gray and Katniss earn peoples respect and love by just being themselves and showing humility. Snow is envious of their lack of effort in receiving praise and validation, both from the Capital and the districts. His entire career is built off scheming and manipulation to get what he wants and despite his family’s status, he still has to scheme and plot because he alone is not good enough. So really, I just perceive him as an insecure entitled narcissist.
He definitely is a narcissist but being one does not make a person evil
Can someone be raised/groomed into being a narcissist? Snow was told his entire life that "Snow lands on top" and that he deserves more than others. He lived a life of luxury as a young child, and it was "taken" by the rebels. It isn't hard to see why he us narcissistic.
@@disneybunny45 Noone is born narcissistic, right?
I’ve always said that when Snow said that the things we love the most are what destroy us, he was inadvertently talking about himself. He destroyed everyone who ever cared about him.
I’ve seen some people refer to early-book Snow as ‘kind’ and ‘decent’ and other such positive attributes and… I don’t know if we read the same book???? From the very first pages of the novel it is clear that he is a certifiable sociopath. He is the textbook definition of narcissistic personality disorder. Ever kind word and action is a performance, a strategic move to get what he wants. He’s hyper focussed on what other people may think of him and feel entitled to things simply because his is a Snow. The world is his by right. This barely 18-year-old is absolutely devoid of anything that vaguely resembles empathy. In the movie, after what happens with Sejanus happens, he has an absolute breakdown, and while the actor is absolutely giving it his all, and working his ass off to sell it, and it’s wonderful and heart wrenching, it is completely out of character for him.
Snow broke down because he was sure he was implicated and about to die, not because he had betrayed his friend. He thought turning Sejanus in was right but that he’d get a slap on the wrist because he was rich.
I read the book but it was a while ago, and I don't think snow actually thought sejanus was going to die or that wasn't his intention. He was confused and wanted to protect himself, so I think he legitimately felt bad about it in a way. I don't remember if he has a breakdown in the book or not.
He was confused on how to handle all of in and even considered erasing the recording he also thought no one would ever hit play on the bird. He even wrote the try to get the guys dad to get him out of trouble, I never thought he would be killed because if his status.
I agree that Snow was a sociopath and viewed everything from the angle of "What's in it for me?' All his interactions were calculated. But there were a few traces of unwilling compassion for Sejanus-- like when he was about to be hanged and Snow flashed back to a memory of Sejanus at 8 years old on the playground with a bag of sweets clutched in his hand. It's just a flicker of compassion. But it's never enough to stop him from acting for the Capital-- like when he recorded Sejanus' plot to help the rebels. He rationalizes it, thinking Mr. Plinth could rescue him-- but really he knew he was condemning him to death. I don't see him as ever really being good.
@@MistyWardenI think it may have been a brief moment of twisted clarity too, but instead of feeling genuinely remorseful he feels more sorry for himself. Like you said, breaking down because he’s afraid of his own implication but I personally think he also feels sorry for himself because he’s realizing what he’s truly capable of and cognitively he knows it’s shameful. When a narcissist appears regretful for heinous acts this is usually more what it’s about.
this is a great video! there is one point i disagree with though, you say 'if snow hadn't given lucy the rat poison she may not have killed anyone' to me a huge part of lucy gray's character is her commitment to survival, when she bites billy taupe's hand, when she slips a snake down mayfair's dress, when she "goes to look for katniss" i.e. leaving him, these are all moments where she demonstrates just how much of a fighter and a survivor she is. and these moments UNNERVE snow JUST like the mockingjays!!! the jabberjays being the capital and the mockingbirds being the district, makes the mockingjay the symbol of resilience and endurance. thats part of way its a powerful symbol for the rebellion in the other books. lucy gray loves the mockingjays and snow HATES them. they represent a kinmd of strength he does not have: to fight for survival and (like peeta says) not let it change you. to believe in the goodness of humanity even as you witness cruelty
Agreed, Lucy to me is a survivor first and foremost and will protect herself if needed. She won't go out of her way to hurt people unless necessary
Let’s also remember too, snow gave Lucy the compact but she got the poison from the zoo. Although this was his idea, she followed through with the plan for survival!
+
she was perfectly willing to kill someone just not anyone who wasn't doing anything to her.
I hate when people overlook LG strong survival skills and desire.
She befriended and played along with Snow first bc she saw him as a teen boy who wants her to win just as much as she wants to survive the game. What does she do ? She does what she always did back in the discrit, she dances, spreads kisses like honey and she uses her charm on Snow.
She knows, as long as he liked her she will be feed and her chances of survival are higher.
LG never blamed Snow for Mayfair murder bc she understood that it was a matter of life and death.
I’ll even argue that Snow recognized those things in LG and that was part of his initial attraction toward her.
this was such a good in-depth analysis! one small thing i would add is, on top of the three main influences you mentioned, another person snow has around him that's important is tigris. she isn't an influence as much as a mirror, she had his same means and upbrining, arguably even less than him, but she sees the world and inhabits it very differently, in the end even helping katniss take him down. i feel that's one more argument showing how it's not what happens to us but the choices we make that really define us as people.
Exactly!!
About Snow finding the gun:
I only watched the movie, however in my eyes it was Lucy Gray who hid the weapon and made so that Snow would find it in order to see his true colors. After some of his actions it's only natural she'd suspect him. I believe even when she saw him to say she'd run away, she already had a plan in mind to figure out who he truly was, and a way to run away just like she did in case it turned for the worst.
She might have a more positive view on the world, but she is very smart.
Honestly, I thought the same because Lucy is too clever to just not put the pieces together and in the book she seems to sort of act dumb about the guns. I also think she planned it to see how he would react, like a final test.
U should read the book, its soooo good, it’s actually my fav of the whole series…she’s even more clever in the book, very calculated, she allows for good to happen but always has a back up plan
@@shaela1717 I read them all but wanted to watch this movie before reading since i wad going with friends and wanted to be surprised 😊
@@slayerie2309 awe that’s a good reason! Nothing will ever compare to the first time I heard the story of hunger games and the shock it came with, but this book gave me exactly what I was lookin for after I finished the first 3 books, which was more snow - I’ve seen either ppl love it or hate it, no inbetween, I knew it was nothing like the series tho and that’s the majority complaint I’ve seen - if u have some free time it’s worth it imo!
I’m the movie it definitely seems that way, even to me when I’ve read the book three times; but in the book the bag of weapons is just kind of sitting there behind the door instead of beneath the floor (ha rhyme) and so I don’t think it was meant to be Lucy Gray because she was ready to run away with Snow at that point until they found the weapons, but I like the theory too
I really liked how they showed more of the humanity with the tributes than compared to book one.
Like we see most of the girls and boys who come from the same district caring for each other. Lamina mercy killing Marcus. And this goes on and on.
While I can’t remember people caring for each other in the arena besides Katniss, Peeta and Rue. Maybe Foxface, if she just survived a while longer.
Just to add, in the 74th games we do see a tiny bit of compassion from others. Thresh cared for Rue in some manner. While he didn’t team up with her, he killed Clove more aggressively for having a part in Rue’s death and spared Katniss’ life for her sake. In the books (not shown in the movies) Katniss sees Cato crying over Clove’s body when he comes back, begging her to stay alive. But aside from that, they don’t go into as much detail like you said
and I think it makes a difference too how long the games have been going on for. This is the 10th games, so some might still be going in with the view that they might be able to change things if they band together. But by the 74th they know the drill they (obviously apart from Katniss) know that nothing they do will change it, 1 person will survive so they don’t let themselves hope for anything else. Just my take
At the point of the 74th hunger games, at least 2 generations have grew up with knowledge that they might die in the hunger games. They cannot afford to see their neighbor as a person if it comes down to life and death in the games.
Lucy's fate is the same as the Lucy she was named after in the book. It is unknown whether she is somewhere else or dead. Snow also got bitten by a snake and may have imagined hitting Lucy because he never found the body afterwards
Thats the poetic thing about it and that's so Suzanne-ish
Love this hunger games era (for the second time since 2015)
im so deep in it
I think Sejanus WAS Coriolanus' best "friend" at least in the movies. However, Coriolanus' desire to get back to the Capitol and his desire for power as something better than just a peacekeeper (his future basically) is stronger than his friendship with Sejanus. This is why you see him cry and shout loudly when he reminisces his memories with Sejanus after seeing their picture together which was taken during the 10th games. Overall, Coriolanus is a complex character and is morally grey. I understand his choices and doing what he did although it is morally grey or sometimes even morally wrong. His character really makes you wonder if you would REALLY prioritize yourself over others in a situation where you have no other choices, a survivor's instinct basically. This is what I think about Snow right now, I would like to hear what you guys who watched the movies/ read the books think!
Having read the book I completely agree that Coriolanus is a very self-centered person. He is very calculating about all his relationships in his life and about what benefit they would bring him, except for with his family and Lucy Gray. To him Sejanus represents everything he was entitled to have, but didn’t, on top of that Sejanus viewed his wealth and life in the capitol more like a curse than a blessing, which is why Coriolanus was resentful and looked down on him. Throughout the book he views him as more of a problem he has to deal with rather than a friend. But he does respect him in one instance where Sejanus stands up to Dr. Gaul in class and is also truly glad to see him in district 12, which is cute haha.
Also, I think Sejanus was portrayed a little more innocent in the movie, because in the book he does go out of his way to procure guns for the rebels and outright lies to Coriolanus (which doesn’t go past him of course).
On another note, scenes with Coriolanus and Sejanus were almost always hilarious to read (anyone feel like this too?), because Coriolanus was always internally super annoyed by Sejanus’ trouble making and rebel supporting antics while trying to convince him otherwise in a strategically calm manner. 😂😂😂
Lmao I was laughing at that too
This isn’t just a villain origin story, it’s a narcissism one & a GOOD one at that. Snow’s decent & the way in which Collins writes it is masterful. At the beginning the trace elements are there, including the backstory which ties it all together, but the growth is each DSM trait of narcissism slowly takes over & by the last 4-5 chapters I was shocked & screaming at the book because of how sick I felt reading his inner monologue & just how warped his reality became, yet how deeply he believed it.
This video reminded me of the quote from Dumbledore in Harry Potter. “It is not our abilities that show what we truly are. It is our choices.” Snow demonstrates the ability to feel love and compassion, yet he chooses cruelty and self preservation.
I love your video essays on villains
Agreed! Been re-reading the book and Lucy Gray is very cunning. There are multiple references to this that Snow mostly ignores. His grandmother mentions how wiley she thinks Lucy Gray is. Dean Highbottom mentions the same thing. A lot of people are drawn to her and believe her innocent. Snow is one of them. He sees her as someone to protect. Someone who is at the mercy of the world. But she's just as much a survivor as he is (though Lucy Gray is absolutely far more moral).
But it was just very striking to me how, in the book, she embraced Treech and he let his guard down to return the embrace during the Games before she poisoned him with a snake. She really does know how to manipulate the people around her. She and Snow were very similar that way. That last scene is very much two survivors choosing self-preservation over anything they had together. They both valued trust so highly and, once that was gone, they believed there was nothing left and came to view the other as an enemy to either escape (in Lucy's case) or to eliminate (in Snow's). Lucy Gray knows how to play just as good a game as Snow does.
Totally agree about two survivors choosing self-preservation!!
She’s portrayed far less innocent and cleverer in the book compared to the movie. Also in the movie she’s more aggressive which I don’t like, this makes her too similar to Katniss again and makes her seem less clever.
But I don’t think Coriolanus ever trusted her 100% which is why he was so quick to doubt her. There are also instances in the book where he said that she was clever, so he definitely knew about her wits. But of course in the games she had a physical disadvantage and as a mentor he was in a position where he could decisively influence her survival by assuming the protector role.
Exactly!!! There are so many layers to this that the interpretation can be multiple. Like he did fell for lucy who insisted she isn’t really from district 12 and that she is covey. Him seperating her from the district 12 is what made him feel in love and in control of his own. And I believe that he really saw her and thought highly of her which he would never had to any district person. And lucy needed him to win. Was it manipulation a little bit? Maybe yes. But they def formed a connection bc of the hunger games and how she won bc of him and he almost did too like a they could have had it all type of situation. And then he gets beaten down again and he chooses to go to district 12. And I think he felt love in his twisted way bc he was able to think that they could run away with her. But in the end with his paranoia he probably put her again as every district person in his mind, basically an animal. Bc he starts thinking that lucy manipulated him and wanted to kill him. I think there is love and lucy probably thought that they could actually have a chance, she was happy to see him. She thought that they were similar. And she was so young. She was 16. the way that the thing with billy and may ruined her life and then snow killing them also made her a suspect.. we don’t see her pov but she probably was someone who thought that she got what she deserved and that she was putting the coveys in danger, that she was no good to anybody. She was a free spirit and even though she won which i would like a pov from her so bad but even if she won she really wasn’t free and ironically she probably thought that snow would set her free and have a new love and run away. It is a little naivete at play here too bc they are teenagers. But she was smart. And she felt that he wasn’t her „soulmate“ after all. Did she know he was evil like this? I don’t know. But she probably thought that she was ruining him too and left. Did she try to kill him?!? I just don’t think so but i love the idea tbh. That „ attempt“ made him think that she was a rebel and a free spirit and he hated that and it ruined him bc he couldn’t believe her that she would try to kill him. It’s like the war again how his father also got killed pr smthg. Idk idk reading his pov was so interesting bc you can see multiple personalities. He did saw her as an object to be owned just by him and that def diminshes his feelings but he also saved her and went to her in 12. and that „love“ made him so vulnerable that he hates it. he probably hated that katniss and peeta are actually having a chance at bieng with each other which they never had. Idk ldnfn so many thoughts abt this book
@@a.y.p.5088 that what actors say but say were in love for a time.
What doesn’t make sense to me is: she was familiar with snakes. Why would she set up a trap with a non poisonous snake if she were trying to kill him? Maybe her idea was to get him to think it was poisonous, which would make him go back to the district and give her time to escape
It explains why Snow hated Katniss so much. Her singing The Hanging Tree reminds Snow of Lucy Gray Baird.
I think Lucy Gray's fate at the end of the story mirrors the ballad that she was named after
The problem is that most people try to treat all humanity as a monolith, as if every individual is somehow fundamentally the same, rather than acknowledging that different people can have vastly different natures-which is why, in truth, not all humans will always be shaped in the same exact way(s) and/or make the same choices even in the otherwise same circumstances[ nevermind in literally every circumstance]. And, regardless of either nature or nurture/circumstance//whatever, every individual has an independent Will with which they can voluntarily choose how to act-either in accordance to or countering against their nature or their nurture/circumstance / whatever.
Literally how many attempts of revolution (or events that could ignite one) happened back to back before Katniss became Mockingjay is shocking cause they were all covered or suppressed somehow. The broadcast cuts, Snow exposing the communication, etc. were all equivalent to catalyze reaction as Rue's funeral moment. The people were also much more empathetic towards the districts, they were not viewing them as spectacles, so anything of this magnitude would become the start of another rebellion soo easily.
These villain origin stories are indeed very fascinating and Snows story not being like most, makes it even more so. This essay was great and I loved the comparison of the philosophical quotes. However, I wanted a comment on one scene, which is also crucial in my point of view. I haven't read the book, but in the film, Lucy Gray saves Coriolanus, when the arena gets bombed by rebels. This also marks how significant the appearance of Lucy Gray is to him. She shows an exceptional act of selflessness there and I think this is the most important straw of the good nature of people that he holds on. When he loses Lucy, he loses all hope of humans being good with her. That's how I see it. Other acts of kindness were from Tigris that soon wasn't a high influence anymore but got replaced by higher authorities which he respects. I also keep in mind that Snow is only 18 and still easily influenced.
In the book, the reason Snow writes to Gaul is so she can hopefully help him and gain favor with her. He is latching onto something she shared with him she valued and applied that to his life’s events. Snow has a habit of only telling people what he thinks they want to hear- but only because it could help him. Unlike Lucy Gray who has experienced freedoms and risk, Snow would rather trade other people’s freedom to “ensure” his security with an agreement he drafts “for their own good” and without their consent. I have to say I agree with Lucy’s love of freedom but realism with the circumstances she was dealt. If only Snow accepted the risk at the end and not turned against Lucy. There will always be those who desire Freedom and Snow would always fail in infringing on that.
I think that everything Snow does from the very beginning is for one reason: to benefit himself. The genius of this book, is that Suzanne Collins gives a double interpretation for every meaningful decision he makes so that only towards the end can you see how selfish he really is.
i think the reason that snow ignores any example of kindness and compassion is because he is so selfish. and the reason he is so selfish is because he was born into war. he struggled during the war and thus his brain decided that being selfish was how to survive. i honestly think the only “nature” aspect of this is that 1. selfishness was caused by innate need to survive 2. his thought patterns held rigid over the years (possibly the characteristic of more stubbornness than others could be genetic but it could also be environmental in the sense that he just simply didn’t have a strong enough influence in his life to change it. you could argue lucy gray should have been that influence but i think she came into the picture when he was too deep into the delusion, selfishness, and indoctrination. additionally, that survival need was still being reinforced by the fact that his family was poor so is selfishness/survival instinct was actively working against any change she could have made in his thought patterns. deeply rooted thought patterns that we have are able to change (brain plasticity), but they require intention, time, and effort and a strong enough teacher or influence to drive you to want to or be open to make that change in the first place.
each time he saw an example of humans being cruel, not to mention being indoctrinated to think that way, his lifelong thought pattern was reinforced.
i think that without the indoctrination by the professor, he wouldn’t have become as evil and instead just an elitist, selfish, asshole for the rest of his life. she indoctrinated him when he was vulnerable, willing to fight to win the price, and she gave him power (to have a say in the game, and power over his peers through the favoritism) which of course can add more selfishness.
Not only did Dr. Gaul indoctrinate him but she gave him the power he so desperately thought he needed. It reminds me of the quote “absolute power corrupts absolutely.”
Tigris was born in the same was. Still she was kind, while (from what I’ve read in the comments because I’ve not read the book yet) he saw her kindness as weakness. And this was before the 10th games. They grew up in the same house
I liked the way you analyzed the nature vs nurture thread. For me Snow demonstrates so many defining traits of a narcissist: entitlement, a grandiose sense of self importance and contempt against people who think as inferior, jealousy, lack of empathy and compassion, exploiting and manipulating others for his own win, need for admiration. I watched the movie first and then read the novel - these red flag traits really hit me hard when I read his monologue like the examples you pulled out. So that’s the nature part. And honestly I don’t think even at the beginning he’s all for his family - I think his ambition toward power and prestige is really for himself in name of his family. With that said, its not the narcissistic people are naturally bad - people with narcissistic personality disorder can turn out as decent people and live a meaningful life. it all comes down the choices that one makes that eventually defines who they are ,not their personality. Although I do agree the circumstances he endured, the war, the hunger game and Dr Gaul, were extremely difficult and traumatizing, they were also tests for his character - the choices he eventually go down with made him the villain we see.
38:45 Yess there's so many moments where you can see that he might become a good person but he makes a choice to make bad dessciisons and hurt others for his gain. Like the scenes with this theme that really stuck out to me in the book are the ones with Tigris because he is the most sympathetic around her. Specifically, there's this one scene where Snow gets upset about Lucy singing the "Ballad of Lucy gray " song at the interviews because it implies she was dating other men and Tigris says that he shouldn't judge her for things she had to do for survival, and implies that she might have worked as a prostitute to be able to feed Coriolanus during the war. Snow feels sad at the thought of his cousin having to prostitute herself to raise him and their family during the war, but instead of taking a moment to grow his empathy and not be so possessive of Lucy Gray, he pushes it out of his because it makes him uncomfortable. Literally he had so many opportunities to become better but he didn't because that would require him to consider that his opinions and morals are selfish and do some self-reflection.
Im fully in the Lucy Gray got away camp, but like you said, for Snow's story it does not matter really. What matters is what he would do to someone he supposedly loves so easily. Im not convinced that was love btw since he liked so little about her beyond her voice, charm and looks. Not her beliefs, not her background, not her family, not even her songs unless they were about him. The book was fascinating. Being in his head was honestly an experience like no other. I've not seen the movie yet so that's next up. Love that they chose an actor as hot as Tom btw, beauty does not equal goodness. Helps explain how a person so vile got so far also.
I love how Collins built Sejanus as the opposite site of Snow (maybe his dreams and jealousy too). At first, when I read the book and watched the movie the first time, I thought Lucy was his opposition but then I realized that Lucy (as Tigris said) actually had more in common with Snow than it first appeared and maybe that's why they fell in love. Overall, I loved the world building in the trilogy but didn't feel relatable to Katniss but with this prequel, I truly love Snow and his story. I guess I'm a little too late for the hype :))
you find snow... relatable?
@@mariazuniga6018yes, at some points at the beginning of the story. At least I can understand his feelings and thoughts more than I can understand Katniss's. And if you look at the bigger picture, the meaning of Snow's story is much more closer to our lives than Katniss's
@@mariazuniga6018omg stop why did this make me laugh LMAO
@@mariazuniga6018i mean the part of poverty, putting on a facade out of pride and to blend among privileged people, the lack of control, distrust of the government and the paranoia/fear for safety can be relatable.
People I've talked with have related to certain parts such as this
I can’t wait for the public to get a hold of this movie in the sense that it isn’t only available in theatres - the deep dives and analyses are gonna be insane
So good especially because in mockingjay the movie katniss say that no matter what she lived she plays the game of remembering every single act of kindness and that s what keep a her going ❤
Love your videos! Just one correction, the ending is intentionally vague about whether Snow actually kills Lucy Gray, he fires a shot, she's supposedly hit, but Snow never finds her body. It's meant to keep him in an anxious state, never sure whether Lucy Gray will come back and tell what he's done. Snow is very paranoid and self-absorbed, so it's kind of a fitting conclusion for that sort of character.
I love how many of us are excited for this video lol
That was an extremely interesting deep dive into both the story and the philosophy behind it. Fantastic work!
I've not read the book or watched the film so I'm forming an opinion purely on this video but it seems like this story is more than just nature vs nuture. It's also an exploration of the nature of trauma.
It's likely that Snow has c-ptsd. C-ptsd is different to 'regular' ptsd in that it is the result of long-term exposure of a traumatic event, or multiple events. These events often start from a very, very young age, perhaps before the person was even a toddler. With trauma must come some sort of trauma response, but when a person is so young at the beginning of their trauma, it is difficult to separate trauma response from personality. A person with c-ptsd often does not know a life without trauma and so they do not know themselves without a trauma response.
Snow's trauma response framework seems to be based around the idea of alignment, in which the traumatised person recognises that their trauma has come from someone or something that holds more power than they do and they believe the only way they will avoid future trauma is by gaining that same power, and because their only exposure to power has come from the cause of their trauma, they model themselves around this cause - whether that is a specific person or a societal system. Essentially, the alignment response - without intervention - turns the traumatised person into the very trauma they've been a victim of (If you can't defeat it, be it).
The alignment response is the more volatile trauma response because by becoming the aggressor, the person is cementing the mindset of 'humans are /the system is abusive by nature.' This belief acts as both a coping mechanism for the victim ('Humans are inherently malicious and so there was nothing I or someone else could have done to avoid my traumatic event') and it acts as an excuse ('All of the bad things I do are simply a result of human nature').
This is why Snow doesn't appear to be empathetic of other's suffering, or remorseful when he is the cause of it. He values his safety above all else, and as soon as that safety - along with the power he has gained to stay safe - is threathened, his catastrophic thoughts kick in, imagining the absolute worst, and he will do anything to make sure the worst doesn't happen, even if it means killing the people he 'loves.' It is also why he became President. He gained power over the source of his trauma, but he didn't fight to change it. If he changed society and ended the Hunger Games when he became President, he would be forcing himself to admit that humans can choose whether or not they cause harm to another, meaning that there could have been a version of his life in which he didn't suffer so much.
This is exactly what I was thinking but couldn’t quite put into the right words. Thank you so much for this comment! :)
That flowery background is the fabric on my grandma’s couch lol
ALSO IVE BEEN WAITING ALL WEEK FOR THIS VIDEO
Edit: okay, when I originally read this book I felt that Snow had turned to being this way very abruptly. But watching this I realize I missed a lot and I definitely need to read it again😂
One thing is that I don’t think Lucy gray died when he was shooting at her, I think she just stopped singing and ran away because she knew that no matter what she did he would think she betrayed him even if she didn’t.
Saaame
In the movie there was a very obvious moment of hesitation after Snow knocked out Bobbin but before he finished him off. I've read the book after watching the movie but personally I felt the thought process shown on screen.
NEVER BEEN MORE READY FOR A UA-cam VIDEO, FINALLYYYY 🐍🤍🕊
let's gooo
Honestly this is why I love the hunger games series so much. Like there’s so much to talk about and analyze, especially with ballad of songbirds and snakes.
I didn't read the book before going into the theatres last week and hence didn't know what to expect. I only knew this was set when Snow was in his teenage years and laying out the foundation of the Games prior to the trilogy. In short, I loved it for the amount of depth that was packed into this film. It's surprisingly philosophical and explores the theme of human nature, which isn't dissimilar to Squid Game. Seeing those who didn't like the prequel felt like I watched something else entirely because it was quite masterful, because once the details linked to the trilogy are noticed, there isn't a way to unsee it.
Personally I consider it as a separate entity to the trilogy and shouldn't be compared, as the storytelling scale for the trilogy is far larger than the prequel - which felt more personal and intimate - that drove Snow's actions and perceptions towards Katniss. I don't think it's a "Lucy Gray rejected him hence he decided to rule the world with hatred". The pair really did love one another, despite the initial plan to use each other for material gain and survival, but ultimately I saw real fear in Lucy's eyes before she left the cabin. It wasn't rejection, but she realised Snow had lost his humanity from trying to climb the ranks as well as be with her. Except, I couldn't help but notice he was willing to give it up to be with her until the realisation hits him in that scene with the scarf.
From his perspective it's as if he's thinking - what's the point of trying to help those in the poor districts, when the act is only going to turn against you? He chose love over wealth (like a fool), and look what happened. It explained why he is so merciless in the trilogy, because he saw himself in Katniss for trying to protect her family, and he was determined to show her she can't have both love and wealth. No doubt he also saw Lucy in her as well. Both had that rebellious, fiery streak that couldn't be tamed, and both posed the same threat of him losing what he's been working on - the Plinth Prize, and the empire he has now helped build and rule for over 60 years.
I felt that Katniss being someone the districts looked up to and banked their hopes on, could've become a second Snow, but unlike the latter, she fought to keep her humanity despite everything. Hence I found that scene in Catching Fire where she nearly shot Finnick to be insanely powerful now, because Snow caused Sejanus' death so impulsively and she would be just like him if she did the same thing. His expressions grew more crazed as the films progressed, it's almost as if he could see they are parallels.
Love that the hype is back again for the series and prequel. I appreciate this video essay, thanks for sharing.
Yes Katniss truly embodied a person who chose to be good through it all. She’s a queen.
I agree with a lot of your analyses here but I think one of the main differences I have is that I don’t think Snow necessarily choose love over wealth when he decided to run away with Lucy Gray. I think it was partially self involved because he does not know whether he may be caught for his crimes, so to him it was better to survive and run away with Lucy Gray than to be caught.
I read the Ballad of the Songbirds and Snakes after I heard that the movie came out. I loved how we could see Snow's development in his ideas of human nature and his worldview being influenced by the people around him. I loved the way to explained Snow as a character and the whole concept of the book. I was in shock after finishing reading and this book is amazing! Can't wait to see the movie!
Were "underneath it all we're just savages" and "power and control" deliberate references to Marina and the Diamonds? 😄 fantastic analysis Leonie!
yes omg someone noticed
Omg I didn’t notice that! Yay!
I love all your deep dives, but this video was even better. I knew a lot of the philosophies you mentioned since I study history, but I still learned a lot of things.
+ I think this is the realest dark academia story ever... the idea that a villain becomes a villain because of intellectual influences, not just a sad backstory is the epitemy of the problems that can come with intellectual ideas. I guess a lot of political ideas and historical events following them are exactly that: People believing in ideas so strongly that they do horrible things in the name of doing something good as they genuinly believe they are in the right.
Thank you for this wonderful analysis! I haven't read the book or watched the movie, but now I'm excited to do so :)
Absolutely loved this analysis and especially all the links with the philosophers. It made the book so much more interesting. Also when you said "Snow sees the arena as a place without laws" or something like that, I immediately thought : But there is one, it's kill to survive, kill or be killed. He assumes that it would be the same in a world without laws but there is actually no correlation between the two
You are able to explain something that could be so difficult as this matter in such a simple and beautifully spoken way! Loved it so much among all of your other videos!
my senior thesis is about social contract theory and this video inspired me to implement songbirds and snakes into my essay. thank you so much for making this!
Is that's the reason why Katniss sings "they strung up a man, they say who murdered thee"? Because he confessed by mistake that he had killed three people and not two? I got goosebumps when hearing that Katniss came back as a ghost of the other girl from district 12, especially since her name came from the ballad.
Edit: Also, is that why Snow seemed to have a strange attachment / fascination to Katniss in the original trilogy? Because she reminded him so much of the girl from district 12 that he mentored and fell in love with 65 years ago? Your analysis / explanation of this book / movie is expanding my mind and thoughts about this fictional world and it's history so much.
Lucy Gray did also see a man hung for supposedly killing 3 men in a mine sabotage attempt, but I think it’s both
It’s so interesting to read his perspective of others doing good things cause he immediately interprets the good deed as a way to look good to the people around them not being good for the sake of good
It's the same mentality as many of those who complain about "virtue signalling"
I think the important part is how Snow was raised. He lived in poverty and hunger, without strong influence, without maternal love, taught by semi-mad grandmother that he is elite of the elite and he should succeed in live. I think if he would have got this grand, he would just end up in some minor government role. But it's a combination of childhood, ambitions and bad influence which made him in what he is.
Also I think interesting topic to discuss is that Snow in fact is an effectice ruler. He made Capitole much richier than we see in this movie, which was ultimately his goal.
I think that one scene when Tigris explains to snow that the reason the man was resorting to cannibalism out of hunger also explains why Snow did what he did. But instead of physical hunger it was hunger for power
Really awesome editing and superb analysis! As always! You have a knack for explaining complex concepts in a way that's easy to digest for the average person without any background information on the matter. Thank you!❤
I love your videos on villains 💕 please keep them coming ☺️
So about Coriolanus’ first kill, I do think it’s fair to say that it was self defense. When you’re in a matter of life and death situation you don’t have the luxury of making well thought out decisions, there’s mostly instinct for survival. Yes he did beat the boy repeatedly in a frenzy, but I don’t think you can really use this to make judgments about his nature being evil. I only see the nature of wanting to survive.
I’m also a bit peeved about the portrayal of his reaction to his first kill in the movie, where he said to Tigris “I felt powerful” which is completely made up and unsuitable in my opinion! In the book, he doesn’t say or feels anything remotely like this and isn’t glad that he killed Bobbin until he’s reminded of Lucy Gray not having to deal with Bobbin anymore.
Hi Leonie! I just wanted to say I've been really enjoying the last couple of video essays you've been uploading. I LOVE the research and thought behind each of them. I'm currently doing my Communications Bachelor, and it's a field really tied to Sociology and Philosophy, so seeing you mention authors that I've read for so long now and putting them into the analysis of massive media franchises is great. Same thing for your witch character analysis, and how the witch hunts were a mechanism to control women and their bodies and their role in society. It's super interesting, and I wanted to thank you for putting this kind of content out there.
JUST THANK YOU FOR MAKING THIS VIDEO/CONTENT, LEONIE!!! Just wanna let you know that none of these go unappreciated! ❤❤❤
I’m literally gonna reread all the books now brilliant analyses like this make me wanna deep dive straight back into my 12 year old self
The amount of work you’ve put into this video is incredible! I love your videos like this ❤
Dang you really analyzed and explained this so well I loved it!
I am so glad I found this channel. So many quality binge-able videos. Keep up the good work
I love how you pieced together him using this human nature theory to excuse his own actions and selfishness. Suzanne Collins is honestly a genius writer. Also, kind of irrelevant but I recently finished watching breaking bad and it fueled my passion for corruption arcs stories. Leonie you would LOVE it I think it's the best corruption arc I 've ever seen portrayed in media.
THIS WAS SO GOOD I love your analysis and the editing was superb. Though I think that Lucy was not "just going to get food" and that she figured him out. Especially because she saw his reaction to the guns given that was the reason he agreed to run in the first place.
I'm not gonna lie at first the Doctor’s theory didn't seem quite so outlandish until I thought of all of the heroin characters in all of the books that faced such heartbreak and tragedy, even the brutal games and still chose to be good people. These books are so fucking articulate and laid out to make us all question humanity and depicts characters of all kinds: heroes, villains, and impassive ones. This moral discussion brought about from Suzanne’s novels are so instrumental in our lives and I find this to be so fascinating. It rings true for everyone who has experienced trauma, you either learn and heal from it and choose to continue to feed the goodness inside you or you turn the opposite and choose the darkness and negativity. I believe we are all sums of our experiences in the way that what we choose what to do afterwards with our lives, that's what matters. Your hands will either heal or cause harm. Darkness cannot exist without light, and vice versa. I do think that we all have a bit of both but you must choose which well to fill: the compassion or the evil. The choice is in your hands no matter what you have endured, we all have a choice to come extent.
This is the best and most thorough exploration of the book and movie's themes that I have seen on yt so far. New subscriber!
I studied Hobbes as part of my philosophy class and it's truly impressive how knowledgeable you are about things like this. Your videos are well-researched and I can tell you always put a lot of effort into it with the editing and the atmosphere etc. Amazing video thank you for fueling my current Hunger Games obsession !!
I love how you broke down both the book and movie to bring a full perspective of Snow’s character. I haven’t had the chance to read the book so it was nice that you included it in the video. You breaking it down makes it make sense for me because now I have a full understanding of the making of President Snow. In the end I thought that Lucy Gray betrayed him but now I can see how his mindset on humanity played a big part in his breaking point. ☺️
I love this video, especislly how u explain the theories and how each character influenced snow in a way or another. What I noticed is that even though i've read the book, I never even considered (until your video) that Lucy really did go to look for food and it was Snow who went to the conclusion that she knows who he really is. I was so absorbed in his delusion that I did not even consider Lucy as the good person until the end. Or the fact that she killed tributes, because snow gave her the poison. Wow. I love what the author has done with this series.
Also just wanna say that in the scene where Lucy and Snow are walking through the forest at the end, Snow says that he that he won't miss people {since they are running away, and that's where Lucy tells him that people aren't so bad} and so he again shows his dislike and distrust to humans. so I find it very interesting/full circle how he dies at the hands of people and not at Katniss's arrow.
your video essays are my favorite things to watch during my breaks during finals week!!! loveeee how you articulate yourself and organize your videos
Love love love your dedication and research!!! I studied those philosophical theories from Hobbes, Locke and Rosseau in school and I was already intrigued then and I love seeing you dissect the story and analysing all those theories within this story. Suzanne Collins is indeed a genius and so are you ❤❤❤
Just wanted to say thanks for all the great videos! I loved hearing your thoughts on Songbirds and Snakes, this movie brought back my Hunger Games obsession. Also love the Zelda music in the outros :)
I knew I was looking forward to this, but it turned out much better than I could have imagined. The depth, the philosophical backdrop and explanations, the structure, the design, everything. I paused the video several times to reflect on what was being said. Best video/analysis I have seen/read in a long, long time!!
Listen this movie had me digging out my books from 10 years ago!
I can't wait to hear your input!
I looooove me a good villain
ahh i’ve been waiting for this video all week !!
❤