When I was in college, I was singing in one of the choruses in the music department. At one point, our director was having us sing something by Monteverdi (I think - it was a long time ago!). I knew the theory behind meantone temperament but I didn’t have any experience performing in it. Trying to differentiate between what I knew as G# and a meantone G# was impossible for my brain and vocal cords to process. Making it far more difficult was the requirement that we sing it completely without vibrato. The worst thing, though, was that the rehearsal hall had only a piano in it, so we couldn’t hear the tone we were supposed to match except when the professor brought a string instrument in. Luckily, I wasn’t the only one having trouble. We spent a lot of time in rehearsal working on training our voices to sing in smaller intervals. First we’d work on splitting the half-step into quarter-steps. Then we’d split those in half. We could use that eighth-step interval to approximate the meantone G#, although I don’t think we were really successful in performing it. It was good training, though, and it was so fascinating! That has nothing to do with this video, of course, but watching this brought back that memory. This is a great video, by the way! I love hearing different temperaments played so as to compare the way they sound. It’s just not something we ever hear in our equal-temperament world.
I really enjoyed this demonstration of different temperaments. It really shows how revolutionary and experimental the composers of the baroque era were.
9:16 One huge advantage of meantone is that it has two harmonic seventh chords (a dominant seventh where the seventh degree is lowered so it lines up with the seventh harmonic of the fundamental).
I have to admit the more I use it, the more I really like its characteristics and its "individuality," and I can see why it continued to persist for so long, even after much "milder" unequal temperaments had come into usage.
Byrd, Gibbons, etc 'live' in meantone - I don't like 'beats' and 'ditherings' in that music.. I do, however, reserve judgement on a particular Farnaby fantasia though ;-)
The thing about the usage in this case though is V7 - I, so it might be controversial in this usage because a complex fourth of 21:16 appears between the harmonic seventh of V and the tonic note.
Thank you for watching! I find that the use of historical temperaments can unlock so many expressive potentials for the music of previous centuries--and it could even add some color to the music of our own century!
John Moraitis Isn't the thinking behind Meantone that wide 3rds beat more than compromised 5ths (so it's better to have purer thirds in music with restricted modulation)...?
ToneSpectra.com On the one hand, meantone indeed limits the keys one can modulate into due to the wide 3rds, and of course the one "wolf" 5th, not to mention that, because there are no enharmonic equivalents (in other words, you either have a G sharp or an A flat but not both). On the other hand, temporarily moving into these less "acceptable" tonalities can open up a whole new soundworld of expressive possibilities, so I think composers took advantage of that aspect of meantone temperament. Clearly there are some keys that may be impossible to sustain for too long (A flat, for instance, if the wolf 5th is between G sharp and E flat). But then again there is Louis Couperin's Pavane in f sharp minor which sounds so exquisite in meantone...
+John Moraitis Hello, John. I must say I'm impressed by how well you can explain difficult things. I'm not a musician myself and understand little of the matter, but even I got the essence. I also enjoyed reading the viewers' comments and your answers. You are one talented teacher, I can tell you that. And I love your personality! You should make more of this kind of educational videos and gain in popularity among music students, musicians and music lovers. Greetings from Athens, Greece, and good luck with your tuning studies as well as your French studies.
+Violetta Bennich Hello, Violetta! Once again, thank you for your kind comments, and I am very happy to know that my explanations are clear, as I want to share these ideas with everyone--they really affect the sound and the expressive qualities of the music. I have thought of making more videos like this one, and I hope to find time to start a series in the future (where I start explaining from the very beginning some aspects of tuning and why we have to use different temperaments in the first place).
I think it is disappointing there aren't at least 100 times more subscribers here right now; what is the matter with people these days? Your vids are always entertaining. I expect there isn't enough music education to bring more people to it: you have to catch them young. I was caught young- and I'm glad I was.
Thank you very much to highlight these temperaments with relevant and beautiful examples, especially since I've always find very hard to learn about ancient temperaments. It is a shame the recording quality isn't better, I would really enjoy listening to you playing with a better instrument timber...
I'm happy you like the video! As for the recording quality, I agree it could be much better -- I was still trying to get the right equipment for my videos. Since then, however, I have bought better recording equipment, so if you watch any of my latest videos (some of which also discuss temperament), the sound quality is much better!
Another interesting comparison is possible with Bach's chorale "Es is genug! so nimm Herr" (BWV 60/5; #216 in the Breitkopf edition). Played as scored in A+ using, for example, the Bach-Lehman temperament, results in harmonies that suggest -- to me at least -- anguish and doubt. I believe, however, that the organist would have played it in G+ because the pitch of the Thomaskirche instrument was a tone higher than the instrumental ensemble he was accompanying. In G, the character of the chorale changes dramatically, and the harmonic experience much better suits the text. So perhaps as Bach was harmonizing in A, he was very conscious of how the chorale would actually sound on the organ in G. But you're the musicologist, John, so you are much better informed about this. Thank you for the comparisons! Temperament is such an interesting topic; I'm so grateful to the authors of the Scala software for making it much easier to experiment and explore.
Of course you are forgiven -- temperament preferences are subjective anyway :-) Without wishing to start a big debate, I have to say that I also have serious doubts about Lehman's methodology, and so I find his claim that he has discovered Bach's temperament rather implausible. Of course, the actual temperament he has arrived at can be used for Bach (it is a type of well temperament, after all), but so can all other well temperaments like Kirnberger or Werckmeister. It does boil down to personal preference (for example, I find Werckmeister a bit "bland," but that's my own subjective opinion).
Fantastic demonstration and interpretations. In my ears I generally found Rameau temperament more smooth than Meantone. These "flavors", in my opinion, are more interesting than the equal or almost equal temperaments, for the reportoire that they are possible. Congrats and thank you!
Thank you for this enlightenment in keyboard instrument tuning. Yes although meantone (pure 3rd tuning?) would sound wonderfully adventurous in Period composition, yes a bit spicy 😀 but i seems to like it, while Rameau tuning bridges the different key better.
Really interesting video! Question: you put the Wulf of the meantone between G-sharp and E-flat. Especially in the C- minor piece that is quite heavy! Perhaps the wulf on another place would be better for this piece? I must say: I did not know the Rameau tuning, but I was pleasantly surprised by the sound of it! Thanks for posting!
Yes, C minor is indeed not really playable with the wolf between G-sharp and E-flat. I only did it for contrast, and to show how the Rameau temperament can work better because it doesn't have a wolf between those two notes. I normally would not play C minor pieces in meantone :-)
I rather suspect that Bach was intentionally using both the consonant and dissonant intervals in meantone and well tempered intentionally. Especially in his organ works, you can see him using strongly dissonant keys for a few chords that are already dissonant, then resolving into a chord in a consonant key. The temperament serves to enhance the contrast here. A good example is his Cathedral prelude and fugue in e-minor (BWV 533). Here's a link to a version in probably mean tone, since they're hard to find and not exactly labeled. ua-cam.com/video/88JqTbg3lpM/v-deo.html Notice in particular the passage after 1:15 or so.
I'm happy you liked the video! When choosing a temperament, I tend to go for more "flavorful" temperaments that retain some pure major thirds. So, judging by the tonalities Handel used, I think it is quite possible to use the Rameau temperament that I'm discussing in the video--or at least it should be possible to get away with using it for the vast majority of Handel's music without the harmonies becoming too spicy :) So that would be my personal choice. A somewhat less "flavorful" temperament to use would be sixth-comma meantone. Of course any unequal circulating temperament (or well temperament), such as Werckmeister or Kirnberger, would also work, but, in my own subjective opinion, I like the harmonies to be a little more spicy if possible :)
Frescobaldi exploited the unequal temperaments very creatively. Monteverdi's use of dissonance with the texts of the madrigals is equally imaginative. Can never get enough of 17th C. Italian music. I tune my 1585 Italian virginal to 1/6 comma meantone which gives the greatest flexibility to the range of music I play.
Such a fascinating comparison--thank you! Could you do a video with even smaller increments (like a bar or two) played alternately in various temperaments? I love hearing the small differences with little time between so they are really evident. Your videos delight and educate, John.
John, I really enjoyed your presentation! I think it would have been helpful to explain at the beginning what Rameau is. My first thought is that it was some new temperament which you or some other contemporary musician had devised. By the end of your video, I'm thinking it was a temperament devised by the Baroque composer Jean-Philippe Rameau, but I am still not sure.
Thank you, and I apologize for not responding sooner! This video was very much the result of a spur-of-the-moment idea, so there are aspects that are not as clear as they should have been. The Rameau temperament is indeed one devised by Jean-Philippe Rameau. I have tried to explain it better in more recent videos.
@@johnmoraitis So is it best to play compositions by Rameau in Rameau temperament? Were there specific compositions that he devised for this temperament?
@@WeirdLittleDreams To begin with, there's more than one Rameau temperament, and I think (but I need to look more into it to be absolutely sure) that towards the end of his life he even advocated the use of equal temperament (but I need to see in what context he said that), so I don't think there can be a definite answer. In general, French temperaments of the time tended to be "milder" versions of quarter-comma meantone (you keep some of the pure thirds, but the wolf is gone), and were not usually circulating (like you find in Germany), so I'd say any such temperament would work fine. I find that circulating temperaments make this music lose a little bit of its "flavor" or color, so that's why I tend not to use them for French music -- and equal temperament has no color, so personally I tend to avoid it at all costs :-) As I said, though, there is no definite answer, and it will also depend on your own taste.
Thanks for your demonstration, great to be able to do it on two keyboards. My single manual harpsichord is currently tuned in meantone, Aron 4 comma, great for a few pieces I am working on for a small recital. Can I ask your opinion? I'm learning Sweelinck's fantasia chromatica, among other things. It has D#. Did he intend to retune his Eb to D# for this piece, or use the extra tanginess (out of tune-ness) of Eb? Of course it sounds much better when the note is lowered to D#, and I'd need to do a quick retune for the piece, and retune back to Eb, during the recital. What's your opinion?
First of all, I'm happy you liked the video! As for your question, it's definitely a tricky topic, and I'm not sure there is a definite answer. Of course on a harpsichord it is possible to retune a note, but I always like to keep in mind that some of this repertory could also be performed on an organ, where retuning is not possible. I am tempted to say he wanted the extra tanginess, but by spelling it as a D# he certainly left the door open to more than one interpretation. I still wouldn't retune though, and I would just relish the extra spiciness :)
Thanks much for your reply. I imagine that back in the day, harpsichordists would play pieces in flat keys (tuned flat) and then another day, retune and play sharp pieces. One reason I might take the trouble to retune and then revert, would be as a small demonstration of pure and flexible harmony to an audience. But for now, I'll leave it alone :-)
I find myself asking similar questions when playing Froberger's ricercares, which often have a D# (and no Eb in the same piece), and I find it most pleasing to my ear to bring the D#/Eb down such that B-D# and Eb-G are somewhere between 12-ET and Pythagorean. He does seem to use them specially yet a proper "wolf" B-D# in those contexts to me seems wrong.
So what temperament are most harpsichords tuned in? Because I’m wondering what literature would be excluded due to the key not being playable - I’m a pianist who used to sneak into the music dept after hours at night - wait for the security guards to do their 11 o’clock pass and then drag out the harpsichord from behind the curtains on the stage in the recital hall. I loved playing it because it had its own beauty. ha
Is there a midi file somewhere of this sarabande by geoffroy? I would really love to have it to test it against different tunings. Thanks muchly in advance
A very instructive video. The differences between the temperaments are so nicely shown. I think the recording quality is more than enough to illustrate the topic you are presenting. What is your view on the difference between Valotti and Rameaux? I often practice virginal music and French baroque music where mean tone is the best and Scarlatti where Valotti is better. I usually keep my instrument with Valotti so that I can change the repertoire without having to change the temperament of the instrument.
First of all, I'm happy you liked the video! To be honest, I have never used Valotti, but that is because I tend to use non-circulating temperaments (this is purely a personal preference). I suspect that, due to their characteristics, the Rameau temperament may have stronger "colors" than the Valotti, although as you point out, Valotti is more flexible because you can play in all tonalities. My tendency is to try and use Rameau as long as I can get away with it simply because I like its colors, and when harmonies become too "spicy" then switch to something like Kirnberger III or Werckmeister simply because those are the two circulating temperaments I know how to tune by ear. But that doesn't happen very often :-) I would imagine that you could even use Rameau for a good portion of Scarlatti's works, although from a historical perspective using Valotti or a similar type of circulating temperament is more accurate.
I'm happy you enjoyed it! I would say the one book that is easily available, fairly inexpensive, and also quite good, is Ross Duffin's "How Equal Temperament Ruined Harmony." You can tell from the title the author is biased against equal temperament (but most musicians who venture into the world of unequal temperaments end up disliking equal temperament for a variety of reasons, and he explains why in the book :-) ), but he still presents the information in a very thorough and clear way. He also cites many historical sources and offers a very good bibliography, so having this book will also help you explore further.
Would you be willing to write down the exact tuning in cents you are referring to when you say Rameau temperament? I take it you are referring to a french circular temperament with 6 mean tone fifths, three sharp fifths, and three pure fifths, resulting in three pure major thirds?
Peter Moomaw Yes, that's the one! I have to admit that, as I am in the process of learning how to tune different temperaments by ear, in this instance I used a tuning app to set the octave (and tuned everything else by ear). Unfortunately I don't have the exact tuning in cents that this particular app uses, and in my experience, when it comes to French temperaments, every electronic tuner or tuning app seem to deviate slightly from one another. The app I used is called DaTuner and is available only for Android phones. But for a really good source that lists a wide variety of temperaments (and also has instructions on how to tune them) I would recommend Pierre-Yves Asselin's Musique et temperament (it's in French, but of course the tables and diagrams can be understood in any language :) I am also in the process of learning French though... )
Do you have any videos showing how singers would accommodate their singing to keyboards tuned in various temperaments? (I am a singer and would be grateful to hear how to do this.)
Good video. Does 1/3 comma meantone still give 8 good keys? And have you tried tuning to it? I only know of the Edward Parmentier recording in it but would love to hear more.
I'm glad you liked the video! If I'm not mistaken, 1/3 comma gives you pure minor thirds but slightly narrower-than-pure major thirds, and I think it should indeed provide eight good keys. I have not tried using it yet, but now I am curious to try it. May I ask which Parmentier recording you are referring to? I don't have all of his recordings, but I know the one where he performs 17th-century French harpsichord music in 1/4 comma meantone. I would very much like to hear his 1/3 comma meantone recording!
17th century French harpsichord music (wildboar) is in 1/3 comma (www.allmusic.com/artist/edward-parmentier-mn0002224806) - don't think it's currently available other than 2nd hand or mp3 at the mo but a great cd - the fifths are slightly flatter yet than 1/4 comma so it comes across like meantone extra with it's own feel. It can be extended to the almost identical 19 equal tone per octave which is more common but more in it would be great; love to hear an organ tuned to 1/3 comma - one CD isn't enough : )
Thankfully I have that CD--I was just under the (mistaken) impression that it was 1/4 comma. Thank you for letting me know--I'll definitely listen to it very carefully again :) Incidentally, if you search my channel, I recorded the Froberger c minor sarabande that Parmentier also performs on that CD, but I use 1/4 comma meantone instead of 1/3 comma. I am looking forward to comparing the different "color" of the two temperaments. Thank you also for the youtube links below--I'll listen to them later tonight :)
I prefer meantone Temperament - also i invented and build several Instruments on base of 19tone equal, but you can bend the notes and so play everything just, if you like - even classic and romantic and many modern or popular music sounds very good, but Bach is problematic. This first piece of Bach you play... sounds realy nice in meantone
can those temperaments be used in a fretless guitar? if so... how should i do to learn it? would the "frets" be at the same distance in different strings?
As a harpsichordist, perhaps I'm not the right person to answer this :-) But, as far as I know, you can use different temperaments on a fretless guitar (as a matter of fact, many early music performers use different temperaments even on fretted instruments by moving the frets around). I would think that there are different tricks to doing it, either by stopping the note at a slightly different place, or by tuning your strings a bit differently (making the fifths narrower, for example). There are also tuning apps (ClearTune or DaTuner, for instance), that could help you tune to a particular temperament. Hope this helps a bit!
@@gingercore69 I have retuned some guitars in Temperaments. KirnbergerIII , Young and Werckmeister. I had to follow the orchestral tuner with built in temperaments. You get wiggly frets on a guitar . Each open string is tuned to start. Take the others out of the way first. Then using a piece of bronze wire as a moveable fret find each semitone. A sharp vertical spike is used to indicate the positions. Also a sharp ended soldering iron to establish the mark without deviating . Then learn how to make the wiggles on a flat plane. It becomes easy after a while. The spike mark is made just ahead of the bronze wire and not underneath it . It is possible and it is so much better . Rameau is not on my tuner but you could recalculate the settings if you get the exact difference from ET or one of the other temperaments. Try it on a cheap guitar first . I forgot the key technical point. How to fix the frets.? Use a tube of Bostik , or Evostik .. To remove this or just tidy up , the soldering iron will shrink it down as you gently rub the surface. The dried dust will clean off easily. Bostik on metal and wood is very durable. All done on a flat surface. No grooves to be cut .
If you browse through some of my later videos, you'll find a few such pieces :) I have recorded a Froberger Sarabande in c minor, and Louis Couperin's Pavanne in f sharp minor, and I think both pieces have plenty of vinegar :) Rossi is also a wonderful idea, but I have to admit that early 17th-century Italian repertory really needs a 17th-century Italian harpsichord to shine. But I've also recorded two pieces by Trabaci that explore the chromatic scale--in both quarter-comma and third-comma meantone!
John Moraitis I haven't seen at all because of work, but I'll watch it today at all, I always been interested in "Meantone&Temperaments" and this video supports that early goal.
You are perfect, I got all what I need from just intonation and well tempered. I have question, before Bach are there scales F# minor for example, and they have to change the clavier tuning if there is peace with scale as A flat major? Thanks in advance.
I'm glad you liked the video :) Regarding your question, first of all I would say that meantone was not the only temperament available. So one solution would be to use a "milder" temperament that enables you to play in more keys, or you could even use an unequal circulating temperament (those did exist in the 17th century) that let you play in all keys. On the other hand, a composer could also use meantone temperament and write a piece in a key like F-sharp minor if she or he wanted to express something very dramatic. I think a good example of that is Loouis Couperin's Pavane in f sharp minor, which I have recorded twice using meantone temperament (you can find it if you look through my videos). Of course A flat major would be impossible in meantone, and I have to admit I don't know of any keyboard pieces in A flat major from the 17th century--but if there are any, clearly they were not intended to be played in meantone. Hope this answers your question!
John Moraitis Many thanks for this explanation, I didn’t didn’t get notification for this important reply. I must subscribe to your channel. This is not my official channel, if you are interesting in the Oriental music I can send you 3 videos I’ve made them from my second site. My best regards.
Thank you! Unfortunately, I don't have a monochord. There is a diagram that explains how to tune in Rameau in Pierre Yves Asselin's book "Musique et temperament," and you can also find it as one of the historical temperaments available in the app DaTuner (which is only for Android phones).
Amber Cai Hi Amber, I'm glad you liked it! Regarding Bach, we don't know the exact temperament he would have used. All we know is it would have been a type of circulating, or well temperament (hence the title Well-Tempered Clavier), meaning that all keys are usable, but each would have a distinctive color. A circulating temperament would be closer to equal than the ones I am using in this video, and very likely would have involved a combination of pure and impure fifths and no pure thirds; in other words, Bach would not have used what I am using! Rameau temperament can still work for the Goldberg Variations, in my opinion; it's just that Bach would very probably disagree with me :)
John Moraitis I see! That makes perfect sense! Thank you for the clarification, since in China people translate the "Well-tempered Clavier" as "Even-tempered Clavier"... I was confused! So this is misinterpretation:)
Amber Cai Even in Europe and the U.S. most musicians still believe (because that is what they are taught) that Bach wrote the Well-Tempered Clavier to demonstrate the advantages of equal temperament, and are not aware that well-tempered actually refers to an unequal type of temperament :) So this misinterpretation exists everywhere in the world in various forms! :)
John Moraitis Thank you! I'm also wondering -- how well do we know about historical tuning? For example, do we know what temperament Chopin was using when he wrote the 28 preludes? It would be really interesting to hear the different colors of these keys :)
Amber Cai Unfortunately, I haven't had time to look at 19th-century temperaments yet :) It would definitely be some kind of circulating (i.e. unequal) type of temperament, but since musicians tuned by ear, perhaps Chopin did not necessarily have a single temperament in mind. On the other hand, with most unequal temperaments it is likely that the more sharps and flats a key has, the "spicier" it will sound!
I'm happy you liked it! The upper manual sounds a little thinner because the strings associated with it are plucked at a slightly different point than those of the lower manual, thus creating a more subdued sound. The difference between the two manuals depends on the instrument, but a harpsichord's upper manual generally tends to be slightly softer, and this can be used in music to wonderful effect (for instance, think of the second movement of Bach's Italian Concerto, where you play the right hand on the lower manual and the left hand on the upper manual, thus creating a melody-and-accompaniment effect).
Can anyone recommend albums or interpreters that use meantone or historical temperaments? I love this videos with comparisons and examples, and I have listened to many familiar pieces in a whole new way. But its difficult for me to find an extensive library of works to listen to. I would like to listen to Chopin, Bach and other classics but I can only find isolated videos of major pieces...
So are there certain keys that don't work well w mean tone? You mentioned a flat as one. I'm working on some Louis Couperin c minor and it's sounding a bit strange w my kirnberger iii temperment. I've recently read that Louis assumed mean tone to be used. There seem to be a numer ofmean tone termerments how to chose the right one??
Technically you are correct. However, composers in the 17th century would sometimes venture into those "forbidden" tonalities within a piece for expressive purposes. And then there is Louis Couperin's Pavane in f sharp minor, which becomes so beautifully expressive in meantone--but it's the only piece in f sharp minor that I would ever play in meantone :)
Meantone sounds really spicey here. I enjoy it, but at times I have to smile. Some of the dissonances combined with the "serious" music feel kind of funny for me, like the queen of England in a pink dress or so. I wonder if that was intended?
I'm sorry for the very belated response! While it's hard to say with absolute certainty that a particular temperament was intended for a piece, meantone was quite prominent in the 17th century (and when an organ was tuned to meantone there was no option to retune :-) ), so, always depending on the repertory, meantone would be a likely choice for a good amount of 17th-century music. This means that pieces such as Merula's Capriccio cromatico or Geoffroy's sarabande (both of which I play in the video) could very likely be intended for meantone. On the other hand, the Bach I played was an example of a piece where the composer is clearly thinking of a very different temperament, one where all keys are playable (which does not mean equal temperament, but rather a type of well temperament, or unequal circulating temperament). But yes, in 17th-century music, some of the spicy dissonances served an expressive purpose.
Thank you for your suggestion! I've made a few more videos since then comparing temperaments (in the most recent ones, I demonstrate by playing Bach preludes). I hope those are a little more helpful (and if you watch them, please let me know what you think of them) but at any rate I will definitely take your suggestion into consideration for the next video I make. Thank you for watching!
@@johnmoraitis That's exactly what I was wondering yet not dared asking.....comparing one Bach's work in different tempers.I do not have what is called the absolute ear for music :(:(:( Very kind from you !
@@INDIGOBLUE555 You don't need absolute ear or absolute pitch -- actually, since absolute pitch is nothing more than the ability to recognize pitches in equal temperament and at A=440 Hz, that can actually be a hindrance when dealing with historically-informed performance and historical instruments, since A=440 is rarely used and since unequal temperaments have different relationships between their intervals :-) It's a complex topic to be sure, but recognizing these differences is only a matter of careful listening and lots of practice -- I'm still learning myself!
"Eminently playable in mean tone" - I know this video is 6 years old but in my humble opinion, in no way is that playable at all let alone eminently. Frankly even the Rameau sounds a bit fishy. Isn't it the case that equal temperament was also a thing, even in the baroque era, eg for lutes? If so I can't help thinking that C minor could have been intended for ET (or quasi-ET) rather than for violently unequal temperaments like these.
“You don’t have A-flat, you have G-sharp.” That doesn’t make any sense. They are the same pitch regardless of temperament. To call it one or the other is a matter of the key signature or harmonic function. Also, It would have been a little more useful to hear shorter samples when comparing the temperaments.
Actually, if you read any theoretical literature before the 20th century, you will see that musicians always made a distinction between what we call enharmonic notes such as A flat and G sharp: more precisely, A flat was very slightly higher than G sharp -- and this is also true of other such enharmonic notes. And no, they are not the same pitch. A keyboard is limited in that we only have one key for those two pitches (but back in the 17th century there were keyboards with so-called split-key accidentals that allowed both pitches to be played), but a singer or a violinist, for instance, are not limited in this way and can distinguish between the two -- and were indeed expected to distinguish between them. Pier Francesco Tosi, for instance, writes: "A whole tone is divided into nine almost imperceptible intervals which are called commas, five of which constitute the major semitone, and four the minor semitone.... An understanding of this matter has become very necessary, for if a soprano, for example, sings D-sharp at the same pitch as E-flat, a sensitive ear will hear that it is out of tune, since the latter pitch should be somewhat higher than the former." ("Observations on the Florid Song," 1723). And Johann Joachim Quantz writes that an "appreciation of [the difference between flats and sharps] is needed by anyone who wants to develop a refined, exact and accurate ear in music."
Mr Zmuda, please familiarise yourself with the theoretical works mentioned by Mr Moraitis. He is correct when he says that G# was not the same as Ab outside of equal temperament, and some other enharmonic equivalents did not exist, either. Music education after WW I and thereafter became distressingly streamlined and generalised, often failing to explore the nuances and complexities in many areas, such as affect, orthography, tempo, articulation, and of course tuning.
When I was in college, I was singing in one of the choruses in the music department. At one point, our director was having us sing something by Monteverdi (I think - it was a long time ago!). I knew the theory behind meantone temperament but I didn’t have any experience performing in it. Trying to differentiate between what I knew as G# and a meantone G# was impossible for my brain and vocal cords to process. Making it far more difficult was the requirement that we sing it completely without vibrato. The worst thing, though, was that the rehearsal hall had only a piano in it, so we couldn’t hear the tone we were supposed to match except when the professor brought a string instrument in.
Luckily, I wasn’t the only one having trouble. We spent a lot of time in rehearsal working on training our voices to sing in smaller intervals. First we’d work on splitting the half-step into quarter-steps. Then we’d split those in half. We could use that eighth-step interval to approximate the meantone G#, although I don’t think we were really successful in performing it. It was good training, though, and it was so fascinating!
That has nothing to do with this video, of course, but watching this brought back that memory. This is a great video, by the way! I love hearing different temperaments played so as to compare the way they sound. It’s just not something we ever hear in our equal-temperament world.
I really enjoyed this demonstration of different temperaments. It really shows how revolutionary and experimental the composers of the baroque era were.
I'm happy you enjoyed it, and thank you for watching!
9:16 One huge advantage of meantone is that it has two harmonic seventh chords (a dominant seventh where the seventh degree is lowered so it lines up with the seventh harmonic of the fundamental).
I have to admit the more I use it, the more I really like its characteristics and its "individuality," and I can see why it continued to persist for so long, even after much "milder" unequal temperaments had come into usage.
Byrd, Gibbons, etc 'live' in meantone - I don't like 'beats' and 'ditherings' in that music.. I do, however, reserve judgement on a particular Farnaby fantasia though ;-)
@@paulcaswell2813 Which fantasia is it? I'm curious and I want to play it :-)
The thing about the usage in this case though is V7 - I, so it might be controversial in this usage because a complex fourth of 21:16 appears between the harmonic seventh of V and the tonic note.
Thank you, John! Your demonstration clearly shows how much more we can enjoy some pieces if they are played in meantone.
Thank you for watching! I find that the use of historical temperaments can unlock so many expressive potentials for the music of previous centuries--and it could even add some color to the music of our own century!
John Moraitis Isn't the thinking behind Meantone that wide 3rds beat more than compromised 5ths (so it's better to have purer thirds in music with restricted modulation)...?
ToneSpectra.com On the one hand, meantone indeed limits the keys one can modulate into due to the wide 3rds, and of course the one "wolf" 5th, not to mention that, because there are no enharmonic equivalents (in other words, you either have a G sharp or an A flat but not both). On the other hand, temporarily moving into these less "acceptable" tonalities can open up a whole new soundworld of expressive possibilities, so I think composers took advantage of that aspect of meantone temperament. Clearly there are some keys that may be impossible to sustain for too long (A flat, for instance, if the wolf 5th is between G sharp and E flat). But then again there is Louis Couperin's Pavane in f sharp minor which sounds so exquisite in meantone...
+John Moraitis Hello, John. I must say I'm impressed by how well you can explain difficult things. I'm not a musician myself and understand little of the matter, but even I got the essence. I also enjoyed reading the viewers' comments and your answers. You are one talented teacher, I can tell you that. And I love your personality!
You should make more of this kind of educational videos and gain in popularity among music students, musicians and music lovers.
Greetings from Athens, Greece, and good luck with your tuning studies as well as your French studies.
+Violetta Bennich Hello, Violetta! Once again, thank you for your kind comments, and I am very happy to know that my explanations are clear, as I want to share these ideas with everyone--they really affect the sound and the expressive qualities of the music. I have thought of making more videos like this one, and I hope to find time to start a series in the future (where I start explaining from the very beginning some aspects of tuning and why we have to use different temperaments in the first place).
Many thanks for a really lovely and well thought out exposition on the issue of some historical temperaments! Very nice indeed.
Thank you for watching / listening! :)
I've been studying different tunings. This is an excellent demonstration.
Thank you!
Thank you so much for assembling such a delightful exploration.
Kyle Sager Thank you for watching! And I am glad you liked the video!
I think it is disappointing there aren't at least 100 times more subscribers here right now; what is the matter with people these days? Your vids are always entertaining. I expect there isn't enough music education to bring more people to it: you have to catch them young. I was caught young- and I'm glad I was.
I'm happy you like the videos!
It's not necessary to be 'caught young' to appreciate harmony. No worries.
Thank you very much to highlight these temperaments with relevant and beautiful examples, especially since I've always find very hard to learn about ancient temperaments. It is a shame the recording quality isn't better, I would really enjoy listening to you playing with a better instrument timber...
I'm happy you like the video! As for the recording quality, I agree it could be much better -- I was still trying to get the right equipment for my videos. Since then, however, I have bought better recording equipment, so if you watch any of my latest videos (some of which also discuss temperament), the sound quality is much better!
Another interesting comparison is possible with Bach's chorale "Es is genug! so nimm Herr" (BWV 60/5; #216 in the Breitkopf edition). Played as scored in A+ using, for example, the Bach-Lehman temperament, results in harmonies that suggest -- to me at least -- anguish and doubt. I believe, however, that the organist would have played it in G+ because the pitch of the Thomaskirche instrument was a tone higher than the instrumental ensemble he was accompanying. In G, the character of the chorale changes dramatically, and the harmonic experience much better suits the text. So perhaps as Bach was harmonizing in A, he was very conscious of how the chorale would actually sound on the organ in G. But you're the musicologist, John, so you are much better informed about this.
Thank you for the comparisons! Temperament is such an interesting topic; I'm so grateful to the authors of the Scala software for making it much easier to experiment and explore.
May I be forgiven for observing that everything about the "Bach"-Lehman temperament fills me with anguish and doubt?
Of course you are forgiven -- temperament preferences are subjective anyway :-) Without wishing to start a big debate, I have to say that I also have serious doubts about Lehman's methodology, and so I find his claim that he has discovered Bach's temperament rather implausible. Of course, the actual temperament he has arrived at can be used for Bach (it is a type of well temperament, after all), but so can all other well temperaments like Kirnberger or Werckmeister. It does boil down to personal preference (for example, I find Werckmeister a bit "bland," but that's my own subjective opinion).
What a great video! I really admire your knowledge of the instrument and the history of different temperaments.
Thank you! I'm happy you enjoyed it!
Fantastic demonstration and interpretations.
In my ears I generally found Rameau temperament more smooth than Meantone. These "flavors", in my opinion, are more interesting than the equal or almost equal temperaments, for the reportoire that they are possible.
Congrats and thank you!
I'm happy you liked the video!
Excellent, your points come across very clearly.
Thank you for this enlightenment in keyboard instrument tuning. Yes although meantone (pure 3rd tuning?) would sound wonderfully adventurous in Period composition, yes a bit spicy 😀 but i seems to like it, while Rameau tuning bridges the different key better.
Very cool playing and songs.
Thank you!
Absolutely fascinating video-Thank you!
I'm happy you liked it!
Loved the Bach in Rameau ! Great job !!
Thank you!
Really interesting video! Question: you put the Wulf of the meantone between G-sharp and E-flat. Especially in the C- minor piece that is quite heavy! Perhaps the wulf on another place would be better for this piece? I must say: I did not know the Rameau tuning, but I was pleasantly surprised by the sound of it! Thanks for posting!
Yes, C minor is indeed not really playable with the wolf between G-sharp and E-flat. I only did it for contrast, and to show how the Rameau temperament can work better because it doesn't have a wolf between those two notes. I normally would not play C minor pieces in meantone :-)
I rather suspect that Bach was intentionally using both the consonant and dissonant intervals in meantone and well tempered intentionally. Especially in his organ works, you can see him using strongly dissonant keys for a few chords that are already dissonant, then resolving into a chord in a consonant key. The temperament serves to enhance the contrast here. A good example is his Cathedral prelude and fugue in e-minor (BWV 533). Here's a link to a version in probably mean tone, since they're hard to find and not exactly labeled. ua-cam.com/video/88JqTbg3lpM/v-deo.html Notice in particular the passage after 1:15 or so.
What would you recommend as temperament for Handel's music ?
Very nice video, very clear , thanks a lot.
I'm happy you liked the video! When choosing a temperament, I tend to go for more "flavorful" temperaments that retain some pure major thirds. So, judging by the tonalities Handel used, I think it is quite possible to use the Rameau temperament that I'm discussing in the video--or at least it should be possible to get away with using it for the vast majority of Handel's music without the harmonies becoming too spicy :) So that would be my personal choice. A somewhat less "flavorful" temperament to use would be sixth-comma meantone. Of course any unequal circulating temperament (or well temperament), such as Werckmeister or Kirnberger, would also work, but, in my own subjective opinion, I like the harmonies to be a little more spicy if possible :)
People should play harpsichords or clavichords more
Really enjoyed listening to this!
Thank you!
Frescobaldi exploited the unequal temperaments very creatively. Monteverdi's use of dissonance with the texts of the madrigals is equally imaginative. Can never get enough of 17th C. Italian music. I tune my 1585 Italian virginal to 1/6 comma meantone which gives the greatest flexibility to the range of music I play.
1/6 is definitely a colorful and flexible temperament!
Such a fascinating comparison--thank you! Could you do a video with even smaller increments (like a bar or two) played alternately in various temperaments? I love hearing the small differences with little time between so they are really evident. Your videos delight and educate, John.
I definitely need to do that! This video was very much a spur-of-the-moment creation, so if I could go back I would definitely change a few things :-)
Ein entscheidender Unterschid zwischden den beiden Versionen des Musikstücks wurde mit deutlich 6:12
Hola muchas gracias es un gusto esta clase .es una lástima la desafinacion del instrumento ,me gustó mucho todo !
Es una demostración de dos distintos modos de afinación, técnicamente no está desafinado.
John, I really enjoyed your presentation! I think it would have been helpful to explain at the beginning what Rameau is. My first thought is that it was some new temperament which you or some other contemporary musician had devised. By the end of your video, I'm thinking it was a temperament devised by the Baroque composer Jean-Philippe Rameau, but I am still not sure.
Thank you, and I apologize for not responding sooner! This video was very much the result of a spur-of-the-moment idea, so there are aspects that are not as clear as they should have been. The Rameau temperament is indeed one devised by Jean-Philippe Rameau. I have tried to explain it better in more recent videos.
@@johnmoraitis So is it best to play compositions by Rameau in Rameau temperament? Were there specific compositions that he devised for this temperament?
@@WeirdLittleDreams To begin with, there's more than one Rameau temperament, and I think (but I need to look more into it to be absolutely sure) that towards the end of his life he even advocated the use of equal temperament (but I need to see in what context he said that), so I don't think there can be a definite answer. In general, French temperaments of the time tended to be "milder" versions of quarter-comma meantone (you keep some of the pure thirds, but the wolf is gone), and were not usually circulating (like you find in Germany), so I'd say any such temperament would work fine. I find that circulating temperaments make this music lose a little bit of its "flavor" or color, so that's why I tend not to use them for French music -- and equal temperament has no color, so personally I tend to avoid it at all costs :-) As I said, though, there is no definite answer, and it will also depend on your own taste.
Fascinating!
It's definitely a fascinating topic, and I'm happy you liked the video!
Thanks for your demonstration, great to be able to do it on two keyboards. My single manual harpsichord is currently tuned in meantone, Aron 4 comma, great for a few pieces I am working on for a small recital. Can I ask your opinion? I'm learning Sweelinck's fantasia chromatica, among other things. It has D#. Did he intend to retune his Eb to D# for this piece, or use the extra tanginess (out of tune-ness) of Eb? Of course it sounds much better when the note is lowered to D#, and I'd need to do a quick retune for the piece, and retune back to Eb, during the recital. What's your opinion?
First of all, I'm happy you liked the video! As for your question, it's definitely a tricky topic, and I'm not sure there is a definite answer. Of course on a harpsichord it is possible to retune a note, but I always like to keep in mind that some of this repertory could also be performed on an organ, where retuning is not possible. I am tempted to say he wanted the extra tanginess, but by spelling it as a D# he certainly left the door open to more than one interpretation. I still wouldn't retune though, and I would just relish the extra spiciness :)
Thanks much for your reply. I imagine that back in the day, harpsichordists would play pieces in flat keys (tuned flat) and then another day, retune and play sharp pieces. One reason I might take the trouble to retune and then revert, would be as a small demonstration of pure and flexible harmony to an audience. But for now, I'll leave it alone :-)
I find myself asking similar questions when playing Froberger's ricercares, which often have a D# (and no Eb in the same piece), and I find it most pleasing to my ear to bring the D#/Eb down such that B-D# and Eb-G are somewhere between 12-ET and Pythagorean. He does seem to use them specially yet a proper "wolf" B-D# in those contexts to me seems wrong.
So what temperament are most harpsichords tuned in? Because I’m wondering what literature would be excluded due to the key not being playable - I’m a pianist who used to sneak into the music dept after hours at night - wait for the security guards to do their 11 o’clock pass and then drag out the harpsichord from behind the curtains on the stage in the recital hall. I loved playing it because it had its own beauty. ha
Is there a midi file somewhere of this sarabande by geoffroy? I would really love to have it to test it against different tunings. Thanks muchly in advance
Not that I know of. His works in general are very rarely performed--which is a pity. The score is available on imslp though.
I like the woolf - even if I understand it can't be used in tonal music :)
fine video and very nice person.
+emilianoturazzi I'm happy you liked the video! :)
+emilianoturazzi you don't know what he's like in private
sirvidia the woolf?
+emilianoturazzi the very nice person
sirvidia by now I'm seeing you and it's not such a beautiful seek
A very instructive video. The differences between the temperaments are so nicely shown. I think the recording quality is more than enough to illustrate the topic you are presenting. What is your view on the difference between Valotti and Rameaux? I often practice virginal music and French baroque music where mean tone is the best and Scarlatti where Valotti is better. I usually keep my instrument with Valotti so that I can change the repertoire without having to change the temperament of the instrument.
First of all, I'm happy you liked the video! To be honest, I have never used Valotti, but that is because I tend to use non-circulating temperaments (this is purely a personal preference). I suspect that, due to their characteristics, the Rameau temperament may have stronger "colors" than the Valotti, although as you point out, Valotti is more flexible because you can play in all tonalities. My tendency is to try and use Rameau as long as I can get away with it simply because I like its colors, and when harmonies become too "spicy" then switch to something like Kirnberger III or Werckmeister simply because those are the two circulating temperaments I know how to tune by ear. But that doesn't happen very often :-) I would imagine that you could even use Rameau for a good portion of Scarlatti's works, although from a historical perspective using Valotti or a similar type of circulating temperament is more accurate.
Very interesting!
Now Bach ist the Undertaker for pure Quint...5 Years Alcatraz👏👏👏🎹😂😂😂
That was more pleasing than I expected. I quite enjoyed both. Do you recommend any literature on this topic? Thanks for the video.
I'm happy you enjoyed it! I would say the one book that is easily available, fairly inexpensive, and also quite good, is Ross Duffin's "How Equal Temperament Ruined Harmony." You can tell from the title the author is biased against equal temperament (but most musicians who venture into the world of unequal temperaments end up disliking equal temperament for a variety of reasons, and he explains why in the book :-) ), but he still presents the information in a very thorough and clear way. He also cites many historical sources and offers a very good bibliography, so having this book will also help you explore further.
Tuning and temperament by j. Murray Barbour and harpsichord tuning by klopp are my 2 faves on this subject.
Would you be willing to write down the exact tuning in cents you are referring to when you say Rameau temperament? I take it you are referring to a french circular temperament with 6 mean tone fifths, three sharp fifths, and three pure fifths, resulting in three pure major thirds?
Is this the temperament you are referring to?
www.hpschd.nu/index.html?nav/nav-4.html&t/welcome.html&www.hpschd.nu/tech/tmp/rameau.html
Peter Moomaw Yes, that's the one! I have to admit that, as I am in the process of learning how to tune different temperaments by ear, in this instance I used a tuning app to set the octave (and tuned everything else by ear). Unfortunately I don't have the exact tuning in cents that this particular app uses, and in my experience, when it comes to French temperaments, every electronic tuner or tuning app seem to deviate slightly from one another. The app I used is called DaTuner and is available only for Android phones. But for a really good source that lists a wide variety of temperaments (and also has instructions on how to tune them) I would recommend Pierre-Yves Asselin's Musique et temperament (it's in French, but of course the tables and diagrams can be understood in any language :) I am also in the process of learning French though... )
Do you have any videos showing how singers would accommodate their singing to keyboards tuned in various temperaments? (I am a singer and would be grateful to hear how to do this.)
Unfortunately I don't, but let me see if I can find any!
Good video. Does 1/3 comma meantone still give 8 good keys? And have you tried tuning to it? I only know of the Edward Parmentier recording in it but would love to hear more.
I'm glad you liked the video! If I'm not mistaken, 1/3 comma gives you pure minor thirds but slightly narrower-than-pure major thirds, and I think it should indeed provide eight good keys. I have not tried using it yet, but now I am curious to try it. May I ask which Parmentier recording you are referring to? I don't have all of his recordings, but I know the one where he performs 17th-century French harpsichord music in 1/4 comma meantone. I would very much like to hear his 1/3 comma meantone recording!
17th century French harpsichord music (wildboar) is in 1/3 comma (www.allmusic.com/artist/edward-parmentier-mn0002224806) - don't think it's currently available other than 2nd hand or mp3 at the mo but a great cd - the fifths are slightly flatter yet than 1/4 comma so it comes across like meantone extra with it's own feel. It can be extended to the almost identical 19 equal tone per octave which is more common but more in it would be great; love to hear an organ tuned to 1/3 comma - one CD isn't enough : )
Thankfully I have that CD--I was just under the (mistaken) impression that it was 1/4 comma. Thank you for letting me know--I'll definitely listen to it very carefully again :) Incidentally, if you search my channel, I recorded the Froberger c minor sarabande that Parmentier also performs on that CD, but I use 1/4 comma meantone instead of 1/3 comma. I am looking forward to comparing the different "color" of the two temperaments. Thank you also for the youtube links below--I'll listen to them later tonight :)
I prefer meantone Temperament - also i invented and build several Instruments on base of 19tone equal, but you can bend the notes and so play everything just, if you like - even classic and romantic and many modern or popular music sounds very good, but Bach is problematic. This first piece of Bach you play... sounds realy nice in meantone
can those temperaments be used in a fretless guitar? if so... how should i do to learn it? would the "frets" be at the same distance in different strings?
As a harpsichordist, perhaps I'm not the right person to answer this :-) But, as far as I know, you can use different temperaments on a fretless guitar (as a matter of fact, many early music performers use different temperaments even on fretted instruments by moving the frets around). I would think that there are different tricks to doing it, either by stopping the note at a slightly different place, or by tuning your strings a bit differently (making the fifths narrower, for example). There are also tuning apps (ClearTune or DaTuner, for instance), that could help you tune to a particular temperament. Hope this helps a bit!
thanks! it really helps, now i have to figure out where the "frets" would be to make it work
@@gingercore69
I have retuned some guitars in Temperaments. KirnbergerIII , Young and Werckmeister. I had to follow the orchestral tuner with built in temperaments. You get wiggly frets on a guitar . Each open string is tuned to start. Take the others out of the way first. Then using a piece of bronze wire as a moveable fret find each semitone. A sharp vertical spike is used to indicate the positions. Also a sharp ended soldering iron to establish the mark without deviating . Then learn how to make the wiggles on a flat plane. It becomes easy after a while. The spike mark is made just ahead of the bronze wire and not underneath it . It is possible and it is so much better . Rameau is not on my tuner but you could recalculate the settings if you get the exact difference from ET or one of the other temperaments.
Try it on a cheap guitar first . I forgot the key technical point. How to fix the frets.? Use a tube of Bostik , or Evostik .. To remove this or just tidy up , the soldering iron will shrink it down as you gently rub the surface. The dried dust will clean off easily. Bostik on metal and wood is very durable. All done on a flat surface. No grooves to be cut .
Nothing can beat that Goldberg opening in meantone...
You should play some pieces that exploit the vinegar in meantone, some Froberger or Rossi.
If you browse through some of my later videos, you'll find a few such pieces :) I have recorded a Froberger Sarabande in c minor, and Louis Couperin's Pavanne in f sharp minor, and I think both pieces have plenty of vinegar :) Rossi is also a wonderful idea, but I have to admit that early 17th-century Italian repertory really needs a 17th-century Italian harpsichord to shine. But I've also recorded two pieces by Trabaci that explore the chromatic scale--in both quarter-comma and third-comma meantone!
So, you're a musician teacher? Clever skills and well explained is even more joyfully to watch this, first, Then enjoy the music
Technically I teach music history, but I also like performing music as much as possible :) I'm happy you liked the video!
John Moraitis I haven't seen at all because of work, but I'll watch it today at all, I always been interested in "Meantone&Temperaments" and this video supports that early goal.
You are perfect, I got all what I need from just intonation and well tempered. I have question, before Bach are there scales F# minor for example, and they have to change the clavier tuning if there is peace with scale as A flat major? Thanks in advance.
I'm glad you liked the video :) Regarding your question, first of all I would say that meantone was not the only temperament available. So one solution would be to use a "milder" temperament that enables you to play in more keys, or you could even use an unequal circulating temperament (those did exist in the 17th century) that let you play in all keys. On the other hand, a composer could also use meantone temperament and write a piece in a key like F-sharp minor if she or he wanted to express something very dramatic. I think a good example of that is Loouis Couperin's Pavane in f sharp minor, which I have recorded twice using meantone temperament (you can find it if you look through my videos). Of course A flat major would be impossible in meantone, and I have to admit I don't know of any keyboard pieces in A flat major from the 17th century--but if there are any, clearly they were not intended to be played in meantone. Hope this answers your question!
John Moraitis
Many thanks for this explanation, I didn’t didn’t get notification for this important reply. I must subscribe to your channel. This is not my official channel, if you are interesting in the Oriental music I can send you 3 videos I’ve made them from my second site. My best regards.
Very well explained. Do you have a monochord for rameau?
Thank you! Unfortunately, I don't have a monochord. There is a diagram that explains how to tune in Rameau in Pierre Yves Asselin's book "Musique et temperament," and you can also find it as one of the historical temperaments available in the app DaTuner (which is only for Android phones).
At 7:12 I can't make out the name of the composer of the Sarabande in c moll.
It's Jean-Nicolas Geoffroy.
AWESOME!
Thank you!
Hi Professor! Thank you for posting the video, very inspiring to watch :) What temperament did Bach write the Variations for?
Amber
Amber Cai Hi Amber, I'm glad you liked it! Regarding Bach, we don't know the exact temperament he would have used. All we know is it would have been a type of circulating, or well temperament (hence the title Well-Tempered Clavier), meaning that all keys are usable, but each would have a distinctive color. A circulating temperament would be closer to equal than the ones I am using in this video, and very likely would have involved a combination of pure and impure fifths and no pure thirds; in other words, Bach would not have used what I am using! Rameau temperament can still work for the Goldberg Variations, in my opinion; it's just that Bach would very probably disagree with me :)
John Moraitis I see! That makes perfect sense! Thank you for the clarification, since in China people translate the "Well-tempered Clavier" as "Even-tempered Clavier"... I was confused! So this is misinterpretation:)
Amber Cai Even in Europe and the U.S. most musicians still believe (because that is what they are taught) that Bach wrote the Well-Tempered Clavier to demonstrate the advantages of equal temperament, and are not aware that well-tempered actually refers to an unequal type of temperament :) So this misinterpretation exists everywhere in the world in various forms! :)
John Moraitis Thank you! I'm also wondering -- how well do we know about historical tuning? For example, do we know what temperament Chopin was using when he wrote the 28 preludes? It would be really interesting to hear the different colors of these keys :)
Amber Cai Unfortunately, I haven't had time to look at 19th-century temperaments yet :) It would definitely be some kind of circulating (i.e. unequal) type of temperament, but since musicians tuned by ear, perhaps Chopin did not necessarily have a single temperament in mind. On the other hand, with most unequal temperaments it is likely that the more sharps and flats a key has, the "spicier" it will sound!
Very interesting! Love this comparison. Why does the upper manual sound slightly thinner?
I'm happy you liked it! The upper manual sounds a little thinner because the strings associated with it are plucked at a slightly different point than those of the lower manual, thus creating a more subdued sound. The difference between the two manuals depends on the instrument, but a harpsichord's upper manual generally tends to be slightly softer, and this can be used in music to wonderful effect (for instance, think of the second movement of Bach's Italian Concerto, where you play the right hand on the lower manual and the left hand on the upper manual, thus creating a melody-and-accompaniment effect).
Ah, I see. Thank you for taking the time to explain. Makes sense.
Can anyone recommend albums or interpreters that use meantone or historical temperaments? I love this videos with comparisons and examples, and I have listened to many familiar pieces in a whole new way. But its difficult for me to find an extensive library of works to listen to. I would like to listen to Chopin, Bach and other classics but I can only find isolated videos of major pieces...
meantone: 3:20
Rameau: 4:58
So are there certain keys that don't work well w mean tone? You mentioned a flat as one. I'm working on some Louis Couperin c minor and it's sounding a bit strange w my kirnberger iii temperment. I've recently read that Louis assumed mean tone to be used. There seem to be a numer ofmean tone termerments how to chose the right one??
Meantone doesn't really work with key signatures that employ more than two flats OR three sharps. It's intended for keys that mostly use naturals.
Technically you are correct. However, composers in the 17th century would sometimes venture into those "forbidden" tonalities within a piece for expressive purposes. And then there is Louis Couperin's Pavane in f sharp minor, which becomes so beautifully expressive in meantone--but it's the only piece in f sharp minor that I would ever play in meantone :)
Maravilhoso
What is the first piece?
It's the Capriccio cromatico by Tarquinio Merula. I actually recorded the entire piece a few months ago--in meantone temperament, of course :-)
Meantone sounds really spicey here. I enjoy it, but at times I have to smile. Some of the dissonances combined with the "serious" music feel kind of funny for me, like the queen of England in a pink dress or so. I wonder if that was intended?
I'm sorry for the very belated response! While it's hard to say with absolute certainty that a particular temperament was intended for a piece, meantone was quite prominent in the 17th century (and when an organ was tuned to meantone there was no option to retune :-) ), so, always depending on the repertory, meantone would be a likely choice for a good amount of 17th-century music. This means that pieces such as Merula's Capriccio cromatico or Geoffroy's sarabande (both of which I play in the video) could very likely be intended for meantone. On the other hand, the Bach I played was an example of a piece where the composer is clearly thinking of a very different temperament, one where all keys are playable (which does not mean equal temperament, but rather a type of well temperament, or unequal circulating temperament). But yes, in 17th-century music, some of the spicy dissonances served an expressive purpose.
Thank you for your sound response. I'm always amazed how harmonies can mirror particular emotions.
May I court disdain by reminding us that the queen of England often wears pink, and in public, too! :)
May I ask you playing shorter samples so as to get the difference between tempers somehow more highlighted ?Just my lacking of course... Thanks a lot!
Thank you for your suggestion! I've made a few more videos since then comparing temperaments (in the most recent ones, I demonstrate by playing Bach preludes). I hope those are a little more helpful (and if you watch them, please let me know what you think of them) but at any rate I will definitely take your suggestion into consideration for the next video I make. Thank you for watching!
@@johnmoraitis That's exactly what I was wondering yet not dared asking.....comparing one Bach's work in different tempers.I do not have what is called the absolute ear for music
:(:(:(
Very kind from you !
@@INDIGOBLUE555 You don't need absolute ear or absolute pitch -- actually, since absolute pitch is nothing more than the ability to recognize pitches in equal temperament and at A=440 Hz, that can actually be a hindrance when dealing with historically-informed performance and historical instruments, since A=440 is rarely used and since unequal temperaments have different relationships between their intervals :-) It's a complex topic to be sure, but recognizing these differences is only a matter of careful listening and lots of practice -- I'm still learning myself!
Salieri??!?
Is that you?!?
Interesting video but man you put way too many ornaments in that aria.
I only added a couple--the vast majority are Bach's :)
Rameau made me cringe.
I like that FLAVOUR
"Eminently playable in mean tone" - I know this video is 6 years old but in my humble opinion, in no way is that playable at all let alone eminently. Frankly even the Rameau sounds a bit fishy. Isn't it the case that equal temperament was also a thing, even in the baroque era, eg for lutes? If so I can't help thinking that C minor could have been intended for ET (or quasi-ET) rather than for violently unequal temperaments like these.
*tomperments
“You don’t have A-flat, you have G-sharp.” That doesn’t make any sense. They are the same pitch regardless of temperament. To call it one or the other is a matter of the key signature or harmonic function. Also, It would have been a little more useful to hear shorter samples when comparing the temperaments.
Actually, if you read any theoretical literature before the 20th century, you will see that musicians always made a distinction between what we call enharmonic notes such as A flat and G sharp: more precisely, A flat was very slightly higher than G sharp -- and this is also true of other such enharmonic notes. And no, they are not the same pitch. A keyboard is limited in that we only have one key for those two pitches (but back in the 17th century there were keyboards with so-called split-key accidentals that allowed both pitches to be played), but a singer or a violinist, for instance, are not limited in this way and can distinguish between the two -- and were indeed expected to distinguish between them. Pier Francesco Tosi, for instance, writes: "A whole tone is divided into nine almost imperceptible intervals which are called commas, five of which constitute the major semitone, and four the minor semitone.... An understanding of this matter has become very necessary, for if a soprano, for example, sings D-sharp at the same pitch as E-flat, a sensitive ear will hear that it is out of tune, since the latter pitch should be somewhat higher than the former." ("Observations on the Florid Song," 1723). And Johann Joachim Quantz writes that an "appreciation of [the difference between flats and sharps] is needed by anyone who wants to develop a refined, exact and accurate ear in music."
Look at the flute fingering charts for Baroque flutes...baroqueflute.com/models/Denner.pdf
Mr Zmuda, please familiarise yourself with the theoretical works mentioned by Mr Moraitis. He is correct when he says that G# was not the same as Ab outside of equal temperament, and some other enharmonic equivalents did not exist, either. Music education after WW I and thereafter became distressingly streamlined and generalised, often failing to explore the nuances and complexities in many areas, such as affect, orthography, tempo, articulation, and of course tuning.