Bach's music is so much more interesting and engaging in Well Temperament. Recordings of classic piano works have always sounded a bit too "perfect" to me and the natural dissonances of Well Temperament really bring everything to life. Thanks for this video!
@@Joe-ee6no If equal temperament was perfect, it would be used much earlier. It was known since the renaissance, but its real usage only extends back to the early 20th century (although some not very famous users of equal temperament are known from as far back as the baroque).
There is a very interesting article on Bach's temperament by Claudio de Veroli in Early Music 9 (1981), where he has done a statistical analysis of which thirds Bach avoids on the downbeat, and where he prefers to use tenths rather than thirds. De Veroli decided he was using a temperament which was not that uncommon at the time. It may have been Marpurg. The article is convincingly argued.
this is a beautiful presentation, thank you for preparing it! I do believe that Bach wrote his two volumes of preludes and fugues very much with the different harmonic characteristics of the different keys in mind (or in ear, as the case may be). While he would most certainly have been thrilled to hear that his pieces are still cherished and frequently played centuries from his death, he may be a little disappointed to learn that they are now mostly played on equal temperament, which existed as a concept when Bach lived, but was not considered a suitable tuning method for most pieces played back then.
Stunning. The baroque flute also plays different timbres in distant keys - the cross fingerings produce a soft, muted sound. The E major sonata is similarly “rustic,” I was happy when you used that word. That’s it exactly. E major concerto as well. They all sound like folk songs.
Many thanks for the trouble you have taken to set this up. It's a vivid illustration of the history of temperament as described in Ross Duffin's book "How equal temperament destroyed harmony", which is desperately in need of examples to evaluate the significance of the changes, for us poor souls who can't retune our pianos back to the 17th century. And you do this vividly but still playing the preludes beautifully. You also give us a lot of insight into Bach's choice of keys and the resulting interpretation.
Hi Evariste...I have read Ross Duffin's book which actually talks less about harmony but more about the problems introduce by having exact enharmonic equivalences like C-sharp and D-flat. Many such books have been written about ET and its "false" sounding intervals. My favorite solutions have been done by Maria Renold and later by Dennis Dougherty (ProArte). Here are samples that are aurally satisfying (True Tuning) in all 24 major and minor keys with different flavors in each. Renold: ua-cam.com/video/dXpp4cDCR4Q/v-deo.html ua-cam.com/video/s2E32nVUM-0/v-deo.html ProArte: ua-cam.com/video/-1OOMcixT7A/v-deo.html ua-cam.com/video/6OodEz6N7pw/v-deo.html On this last example a small 6'4" piano tuned ProArte sounds purer than the large 9' tuned to ET (both are Yamaha and same recording equipment) but the final test is the last example where the same piano is tuned ET then ProArte and the same woman performs on it.
I’ve known about the existence of the Bach temperament for many years but I had never heard it in action until this video. This adds an amazing new dimension to Bach’s music that I had never heard. Thank you for the fantastic explanation and performance!
Very insightful analysis. Enjoyed your crisp articulation, keen demonstrations of Bach’s polyphony and voicing, as well as interesting comparisons of the keys that the Bach’s Well Tempered Clavier is so famous for. 🎹
Wonderful video... would love to hear your recording of the complete set in this tuning or a similar one...(werckmeister 3 maybe)...the differences in keys are striking and bring so much more color and feeling to each piece. Thanks.
I'm not convinced by Lehman's particular tuning scheme but your demonstration is really lovely. I'd be rather interested to retune your instrument to Kellner for you. Kellner is in the spirit of Kirnberger III but perhaps more suitable for modern instruments and works with all repertoire. It would be great to do a complete recording of the 48 with Kellner.
It should be easier to try different tunings on an electronic piano. One could even prepare a MIDI file for that purpose. Or would the execution of a piece (emphasis on certain notes, and perhaps ornamentations) depend on the tuning as well?
@@CoStuifbergen Whilst Pianoteq is a useful tool for instance, and simulates string resonance, nothing can behave quite like the very extensive multiple interactions of many strings and soundboards. The real piano responds more for this reason. I tune real pianos. Here's a concert Fazioli tuned by me - ua-cam.com/video/mnTDkj5dYYc/v-deo.html . It's not just how the instrument reacts to its tuning but how the sensitive performer reacts to the very beautiful, or otherwise, sound and as to whether the vibrations are locking together or not. For vibrations to lock together we need a number of perfect thirds or perfect fifths in the scale. Lehman's tuning has no perfect intervals and therefore does not allow an instrument to fulfil its potential for resonance. Here's another performance with a well tuned instrument ua-cam.com/video/tzDC5e1S7UQ/v-deo.html
I may have asked this before, but why do you believe that Lehman's tuning scheme is unconvincing? Do you believe that the sound is less pleasing, or that the physics don't work? Do you believe that the doodle was only a doodle, and attempts to interpret it as a tuning scheme are not valid? Do you simply believe he misinterpreted it? It would be interesting to hear your reasoning. I don't know that you've ever elaborated on the topic at any length. I'm not attempting to pick a fight, but just curious why you have taken the position you have on the matter.
@@edifyguy Oh yes - good question. A number of answers but first the language of music - home and remote keys. Home keys are where you wear your carpet slippers whereas remote keys are where you reach places strange to the everyday experience. That means that B major, C# or Db, Bb minor and all these remote keys should be the most strained. Lehman puts the peak of dissonance in the mid-circle keys of three and four accidentals. The descriptions that Schubart gave of keys accord with the remote being the most exotic for particular effects. The third reason has to do with the harmonic structure of pianos before the 1870s and preceding harpsichords too which give prominence to the 3rd harmonic rather than the 5th. This means that a temperament using many perfect fifths will achieve greater resonance and solidity of sound. On a modern concert Bosendorfer upon testing, it's 6dB louder in a perfect fifth based unequal temperament. This was necessary for the old instruments which achieved power through resonance and not brute force. I credit Lehman with an interesting observation which I'm sure and even am convinced has substance, but don't think he cracked the code. There are so many variables and so many assumptions to make in decoding that squiggle that any solution should accord with the direction that other indicators lead rather than being an isolated uniquity which it is.
@@unequally-tempered Thank you for your thoughtful and compelling reply. To this I will only observe that any tuning system which uses some pure intervals will resonate better than ET, which has, by design, none except octaves, and even those are usually getting stretched. It is also just possible that Bach preferred to bring a touch of the exotic closer to home in his tuning system and deliberately did it differently than what was more common at the time. Someone in a UA-cam comment also observed that based on his understanding of calligraphy and pen strokes, the doodle was NOT drawn upside down, and Lehman had it backwards, though I have not taken the time to work it backwards from what Lehman did and see what that creates. It would be an interesting experiment. Perhaps if you had the interest it would be an experiment you might be in a position to make, due to your access to instruments. I am grateful for all you do to help people understand how tuning an instrument to work with physics as much as possible can make music so much more beautiful. There are not many people doing this, and I have tremendous respect for those who do it.
Well done and fascinating. Of course one can go quite deep on the question of tuning, the mathematics behind it, as various systems were sallied over time, and the nuances are quite deep... A few other questions that come to mind: To what extent does key selection reflect the ideal tonal range for certain sorts of themes, versus just the coloration of the different variances in said key? (I.e. the absolute pitch versus relative harmonic relations I suppose). Another more fundamental question: To what extent did Bach prefer the 12-scale tuning system he embraced for: a) the coloration of which you speak; b) the sheer versatility of being able to modulate through a far larger permutation of harmonic progressions than in the pre-12-scale days. Obviously tuning for 12 keys is a somewhat different question than how one tempers within each, though these are subtly related.
Thanks so much for this video. I would be really interested to hear the entire well tempered klavier in the temperament Bach wrote in. I have a hard time paying attention to and quantifying differences in timbre and small differences in pitch, but I am sure it makes a difference for the phenomenology of the music.
Even though I am convinced that Bach's "well tempered" clavier was definitely not tuned in ET, I wonder if it makes any difference at all to the average listener! After all, great Bach interpreters have played the WTC in ET without finding any problem with it, e.g. Gould, Richter, Schiff etc. The problem for me is when Schiff writes in his book about different keys having different characters: it makes no sense in ET!
In my opinion your comment is spot on. I'm not convinced by Lehman though as he put the strongest keys around 3 and 4 accidentals so go for the more traditional well temperaments. ua-cam.com/video/7JF3YzTG7lU/v-deo.html might be of interest
In Equal Tempered tuning, it makes no sense indeed to transpose a piece on a keyboard. Then why did Bach write pieces in different keys? I think that his intention was that they would sound different. And for that, you need an kind of "irregular" tuning.
"great Bach interpreters have played the WTC in ET without finding any problem with" is a meaningless statement. Since equal temperament, we all have lost the habit of listening in the nuanced ways that different tunings allow for. Some people have learned this again and discover music from before the 20th C anew. I find great problems with the ET by versions of "great Bach interpreters" of the WC.
I'm pretty sure you're right that it makes no difference to the average listener. We're all deeply programmed by the enormous amount of time we have music coming at us, and these days it's predominantly ET (unless we've a strong ethnic musical background), so we're used to semitones all being the twelfth root of two apart. Rather than just being something we put up with - not noticing all the slightly imperfect harmonics - ET sounds right and beautiful to modern ears, and, as history attests, the equality of the intervals across the whole range is an enormous benefit to compositional range. There's a tendency to find fault with anything current and see it as inferior to some secret method of old, forgetting that at the time ET was invented it was a wonder, and it's stuck around because it's wonderful, not because it isn't good enough.
I think I perceive the effect, although it sounds so subtle that I wonder if it isn't caused by suggestion (you explaining the different moods before playing, leading the hearer to look after them)
There is a real difference. But it is much more subtle in this temperament than in the historically documented temperaments, e.g. those of Werckmeister or Bach's student Kirnberger. Also, the differently-tuned intervals are harder to hear on a piano, with its decaying sustained tone, than on e.g. an organ, whose sustained tones maintain their power.
@Stacy Caruso Hello! I think you'll find that in the video he is talking about the key being coarse, as you mentioned. Technique can't change that, so you must have misunderstood him. I think it is rude and very innacurate to say that he isn't a very good musician, just because you don't have a good enough ear to here what good musicians can. Ironic huh? This is also a stupid comment about this man's inentions... hypocrit.
@@eog5038 ... or on a harpsichord with its wealth of harmonics. On the other hand there is an enormous difference between actually being in the room with a real piano - even a medium-range upright - and listening to it via UA-cam, even with a decent stereo or good headphones. The same applies for other instruments of course.
Very sensitive playing, but one small point. I could be wrong, but I thought that ornaments in this period were supposed to be played ON the beat. So rather than `ta, ta, DA` (`DA` being the beat as, in the E major prelude), it would be `DA, ta, ta`, the first note of the ornament coinciding with the beat.
I listened to Bach Book I many times and something puzzled me from the first hearing:Sound was too high pitched.Now I know why.I prefer this tuning from Larip.Much more interesting.
I think there's an interesting discussion to be had around intent. After all, I hear the differences between the keys here, buuuut I mostly experience it as the piano sounding slightly but not very out of tune because I'm not used to it and will never be as used to it as I am with the equal temperament I've listened to for 40 years. It kiiinda has an effect of igniting my interest in the pieces, purely because the slight off-tuning sound of it makes me pay attention, but to be frank I'm not sure that's Bach's intended effect any more than Equal temperament. In a way I think there's an argument that to get close as possible to the music one might do well to experience it in the tuning system that I'm most used to. After all, I'm used to equal temperament and Bach is used to whatever tuning system he actually used. So when I hear it in equal temperament I hear the pieces free of being distracted by off-sounding notes, just as Bach would have done. It's just that our conceptions of what sounds 'off' differ. Something is lost in the translation, true, but I think not all that much. We've most of us enjoyed listening to these pieces in equal temperament perfectly well before we knew there was any other way to listen, and as interesting as the history of tuning is, I have to confess I find it more historically fascinating than musically.
@@johnholmes912 I don't believe you really believe that, unless you also believe that almost all the music you've ever listened to in your entire life sounds out of tune, which I think is unlikely since our ears adjust to the tuning we are used to. All forms of tuning are some sort of compromise, and while there are decent arguments that something is lost with ET, it's still the tuning system the western world has adopted for nearly two centuries and so nothing can convince me that anyone could truly think it sounds out of tune.
@@petersilktubeit's not that it sounds out of tune but I experience it as a lack of depth somehow in the music. However, if I just hear ET I certainly wouldn't notice it, it's only when comparing the same piece back to back. Like this example here:ua-cam.com/video/gu3aNFzj6KA/v-deo.htmlsi=bXnItvNsRd0wXin9 something about the ET version is lifeless in comparison
@@cl9826 I do understand that, the fact is there were subtle differences between the qualities of the keys before ET standardisation. I think that's true, but I also think it's very hard to understand how the music was intended to be heard, because we all live in a world where nearly almost all music we hear is 12TET, and so even when hearing it in what might be the intended tuning, it's impossible not to compare it to ET, that's our frame of reference. I'm glad you get something out of listening in this way. I get things out of listening to tunes in different ways too. Sometimes if I hear a piece on a different instrument or transposed to a different key, or sped up or slow down I discover new depths in the music - but this doesn't necessarily mean something intentional is being restored that was missing, it might just mean that because it's different to how I usually hear the piece, I'm listening to it more carefully, not taking it for granted. I'm not yet convinced that listening in a different tuning system can be done in a vacuum, free from decades of ear training on 12TET, but I do think that it can give us a new way of hearing a piece that might help us to rediscover it.
I have just asked Yamaha why they don't have an option to change the temperament on their digital keyboards. I've noticed that certain octave and certain chords are dissonant. And I'm no Jacob Collier.
Would be nice if my electric piano had a “well tempered” setting. I could find the numbers and tune each key but I don’t think I can save a preset on my fp30.
Bach actually originally wrote the Prelude in C# for C Major but then converted it to C# for the book. He probably felt it suited C# well and used it. But he didn’t write the “C# prelude” *for* C# but felt it worked well for it. anyways doesn’t really matter that much but just an interesting little historical fact.
This is the case for the Book 2 C# Major prelude, where we have surviving earlier versions in C Major. There is no evidence this was the case for the Book 1 C# Major prelude, which is played in this video.
I think the F major is worse for that flat high note. I think the E major is just a boysterous middle aged woman laughing in that true comedy of a mild sadness. Lovely tuning, and fine playing, and thanks for the examples. This could be broken up as a great stage lecture against the full pieces played to follow, if your're looking for a show idea.
Fascinating presentation. It takes some adjusting, as we are just so accustomed to ET. Your other recordings of the WTC seem to be in ET, if my hearing is correct. Do you know of any piano recordings in well-temperament? I wonder if the rather harsh attack of the piano makes it less suitable for more colourful temperaments. What's your opinion?
Yes the brightness of the timbre (which is to do with the small scaling on this small instrument) does create problems when tempering the thirds and fifths, tending to exaggerate the peculiarities further. In the end for now I prefer to keep the piano in ET - even that is quite hard and there are some variables which can improve the tone of the thirds, like not over-stretching too much in the higher octaves. Tuning is an infinite art, like playing! I have tried all sorts of temperament. Koval is an interesting one - it is scaleable to different intensities and has mild tunings which give some difference between different keys but is closer to ET over all. Some of the other recordings are not very good due to inexperience with the microphones and production, and also tuning problems - I think this adds to the harsh sound. I am working on some better recordings of the second half of Book One but these will be in ET. In answer to your question about whether another pianist has done tempered recordings the answer is definitely yes but I have forgotten the details - you may find it on Spotify or another streaming service. If I come across it again I will make a further reply. Charles.
@@charlestebbs Many thanks for your reply Charles. Good to know your experiences with WTC on various temperaments on the piano, as it's something I've been wanting to try for a long time, but found an opportunity. Certainly interested in this Koval tuning and also if you can remember the name of the piano recording, I'd be very keen to know. It seems harder to find something via google than one might think.
Funny, I've never heard of Brad Lehman...at our house we associate a different name and a different publication author with writing about Bach's style of piano and organ tuning... (Sort of the way my old high school friend, Mrs Jennifer Silvia, nee Paxton, said to me once, long ago, when we were planning a get together at the zoo, and I started quoting a Paul Simon song about the zoo, and Jennifer was silent for a moment on the phone and then said, in a slightly miffed voice, "At our house, we sing a different song about Going To the Zoo, zoo, zoo.....How about you?"
silent. pianos had not yet been invented. Keyboard instruments, like the harpsichord, organ, and clavichord, were tuned in a variety of tuning systems and pitches.
Maybe Bach was very bipolar in his lifespan. Perhaps that's why his music was so bilateral in notes... expressing his intrinsic, instantaneous, temperamental changes.
I highly recommend John Elliot Gardiner's book "Music in the Castle of Heaven" on Bach, his character and his music. For instance, he had quite a nasty temper at times - one bassoonist was so angry with his comments they nearly had a sword fight. Nobody is perfect, not even musical geniuses!
In a similar way, when you get used to C major or F major in this temperament, other chords that are close to equal temperament like D and E flat major for example, can themselves start to sound less pleasant than usual. It is all relative. However, the scaling on this piano, and the inharmonicity, does seem to exaggerate and intensify the effect. I haven't used the temperament for a while, and I think other larger pianos may be more suited to it. I do know at least one concert pianist who uses it but it sounds very different on his instrument than mine.
Bach's music is so much more interesting and engaging in Well Temperament. Recordings of classic piano works have always sounded a bit too "perfect" to me and the natural dissonances of Well Temperament really bring everything to life. Thanks for this video!
"Well tempered" does not mean "equal-tempered". An important distinction.
Equal temperament isn't "perfect" at all tbh
@@frfrchopin Which temperament is perfect so?
@@Joe-ee6no Nothing can be objectively "perfect" and "ideal" in every aspect. There are only things that suit each context.
@@Joe-ee6no If equal temperament was perfect, it would be used much earlier. It was known since the renaissance, but its real usage only extends back to the early 20th century (although some not very famous users of equal temperament are known from as far back as the baroque).
There is a very interesting article on Bach's temperament by Claudio de Veroli in Early Music 9 (1981), where he has done a statistical analysis of which thirds Bach avoids on the downbeat, and where he prefers to use tenths rather than thirds. De Veroli decided he was using a temperament which was not that uncommon at the time. It may have been Marpurg. The article is convincingly argued.
this is a beautiful presentation, thank you for preparing it! I do believe that Bach wrote his two volumes of preludes and fugues very much with the different harmonic characteristics of the different keys in mind (or in ear, as the case may be). While he would most certainly have been thrilled to hear that his pieces are still cherished and frequently played centuries from his death, he may be a little disappointed to learn that they are now mostly played on equal temperament, which existed as a concept when Bach lived, but was not considered a suitable tuning method for most pieces played back then.
Stunning. The baroque flute also plays different timbres in distant keys - the cross fingerings produce a soft, muted sound. The E major sonata is similarly “rustic,” I was happy when you used that word. That’s it exactly. E major concerto as well. They all sound like folk songs.
Many thanks for the trouble you have taken to set this up. It's a vivid illustration of the history of temperament as described in Ross Duffin's book "How equal temperament destroyed harmony", which is desperately in need of examples to evaluate the significance of the changes, for us poor souls who can't retune our pianos back to the 17th century. And you do this vividly but still playing the preludes beautifully. You also give us a lot of insight into Bach's choice of keys and the resulting interpretation.
evariste I agree! I found myself scratching my head after reading the Duffin, so this was very helpful.
Hear, hear! Revelatory stuff.hghg
Hi Evariste...I have read Ross Duffin's book which actually talks less about harmony but more about the problems introduce by having exact enharmonic equivalences like C-sharp and D-flat. Many such books have been written about ET and its "false" sounding intervals. My favorite solutions have been done by Maria Renold and later by Dennis Dougherty (ProArte). Here are samples that are aurally satisfying (True Tuning) in all 24 major and minor keys with different flavors in each.
Renold: ua-cam.com/video/dXpp4cDCR4Q/v-deo.html
ua-cam.com/video/s2E32nVUM-0/v-deo.html
ProArte: ua-cam.com/video/-1OOMcixT7A/v-deo.html
ua-cam.com/video/6OodEz6N7pw/v-deo.html
On this last example a small 6'4" piano tuned ProArte sounds purer than the large 9' tuned to ET (both are Yamaha and same recording equipment) but the final test is the last example where the same piano is tuned ET then ProArte and the same woman performs on it.
Fascinating! Thank you for this informative video.
I’ve known about the existence of the Bach temperament for many years but I had never heard it in action until this video. This adds an amazing new dimension to Bach’s music that I had never heard. Thank you for the fantastic explanation and performance!
Very insightful analysis. Enjoyed your crisp articulation, keen demonstrations of Bach’s polyphony and voicing, as well as interesting comparisons of the keys that the Bach’s Well Tempered Clavier is so famous for. 🎹
This is beautiful. So much better! Thank you for sharing.
The difference the temperament makes is really remarkable.
This was wonderful. Thank you. Apart from the really fast exuberant mvts I generally like Bach played in a relaxed, even meandering way.
Thank you very much indeed for this unprecedented relevation, underlining Bach´s unique genius.
i love your rubato and your weighting of stronger chords and backing off transitional and 7th chords.
Wonderful video... would love to hear your recording of the complete set in this tuning or a similar one...(werckmeister 3 maybe)...the differences in keys are striking and bring so much more color and feeling to each piece. Thanks.
Very interesting to think Bach incorporated the most dissonant aspects of his tuning system to enhance and design the feeling of his music.
I'm not convinced by Lehman's particular tuning scheme but your demonstration is really lovely. I'd be rather interested to retune your instrument to Kellner for you. Kellner is in the spirit of Kirnberger III but perhaps more suitable for modern instruments and works with all repertoire. It would be great to do a complete recording of the 48 with Kellner.
It should be easier to try different tunings on an electronic piano.
One could even prepare a MIDI file for that purpose.
Or would the execution of a piece (emphasis on certain notes, and perhaps ornamentations) depend on the tuning as well?
@@CoStuifbergen Whilst Pianoteq is a useful tool for instance, and simulates string resonance, nothing can behave quite like the very extensive multiple interactions of many strings and soundboards. The real piano responds more for this reason. I tune real pianos. Here's a concert Fazioli tuned by me - ua-cam.com/video/mnTDkj5dYYc/v-deo.html . It's not just how the instrument reacts to its tuning but how the sensitive performer reacts to the very beautiful, or otherwise, sound and as to whether the vibrations are locking together or not. For vibrations to lock together we need a number of perfect thirds or perfect fifths in the scale. Lehman's tuning has no perfect intervals and therefore does not allow an instrument to fulfil its potential for resonance. Here's another performance with a well tuned instrument ua-cam.com/video/tzDC5e1S7UQ/v-deo.html
I may have asked this before, but why do you believe that Lehman's tuning scheme is unconvincing? Do you believe that the sound is less pleasing, or that the physics don't work? Do you believe that the doodle was only a doodle, and attempts to interpret it as a tuning scheme are not valid? Do you simply believe he misinterpreted it? It would be interesting to hear your reasoning. I don't know that you've ever elaborated on the topic at any length. I'm not attempting to pick a fight, but just curious why you have taken the position you have on the matter.
@@edifyguy Oh yes - good question. A number of answers but first the language of music - home and remote keys. Home keys are where you wear your carpet slippers whereas remote keys are where you reach places strange to the everyday experience. That means that B major, C# or Db, Bb minor and all these remote keys should be the most strained. Lehman puts the peak of dissonance in the mid-circle keys of three and four accidentals. The descriptions that Schubart gave of keys accord with the remote being the most exotic for particular effects. The third reason has to do with the harmonic structure of pianos before the 1870s and preceding harpsichords too which give prominence to the 3rd harmonic rather than the 5th. This means that a temperament using many perfect fifths will achieve greater resonance and solidity of sound. On a modern concert Bosendorfer upon testing, it's 6dB louder in a perfect fifth based unequal temperament. This was necessary for the old instruments which achieved power through resonance and not brute force. I credit Lehman with an interesting observation which I'm sure and even am convinced has substance, but don't think he cracked the code. There are so many variables and so many assumptions to make in decoding that squiggle that any solution should accord with the direction that other indicators lead rather than being an isolated uniquity which it is.
@@unequally-tempered Thank you for your thoughtful and compelling reply. To this I will only observe that any tuning system which uses some pure intervals will resonate better than ET, which has, by design, none except octaves, and even those are usually getting stretched. It is also just possible that Bach preferred to bring a touch of the exotic closer to home in his tuning system and deliberately did it differently than what was more common at the time.
Someone in a UA-cam comment also observed that based on his understanding of calligraphy and pen strokes, the doodle was NOT drawn upside down, and Lehman had it backwards, though I have not taken the time to work it backwards from what Lehman did and see what that creates. It would be an interesting experiment. Perhaps if you had the interest it would be an experiment you might be in a position to make, due to your access to instruments.
I am grateful for all you do to help people understand how tuning an instrument to work with physics as much as possible can make music so much more beautiful. There are not many people doing this, and I have tremendous respect for those who do it.
I have my piano set to Werkmeister III, and it's very nice with Bach.
great video. really helped me understand the `colour`of sound
Well done and fascinating. Of course one can go quite deep on the question of tuning, the mathematics behind it, as various systems were sallied over time, and the nuances are quite deep...
A few other questions that come to mind: To what extent does key selection reflect the ideal tonal range for certain sorts of themes, versus just the coloration of the different variances in said key? (I.e. the absolute pitch versus relative harmonic relations I suppose).
Another more fundamental question: To what extent did Bach prefer the 12-scale tuning system he embraced for: a) the coloration of which you speak; b) the sheer versatility of being able to modulate through a far larger permutation of harmonic progressions than in the pre-12-scale days.
Obviously tuning for 12 keys is a somewhat different question than how one tempers within each, though these are subtly related.
Wow, it's so beautiful in E major
I too find it not rough, but interesting. The coloring of the temperament is so poignant.
I didn't like the stuff in E at all! But agree fascinating!
Nah, I did not like E major in this temperament
@@cl9826 sucks for you
I find this temperament a little “sterile”. Werckmeister III is my preferred choice
Thanks so much for this video. I would be really interested to hear the entire well tempered klavier in the temperament Bach wrote in. I have a hard time paying attention to and quantifying differences in timbre and small differences in pitch, but I am sure it makes a difference for the phenomenology of the music.
Even though I am convinced that Bach's "well tempered" clavier was definitely not tuned in ET, I wonder if it makes any difference at all to the average listener! After all, great Bach interpreters have played the WTC in ET without finding any problem with it, e.g. Gould, Richter, Schiff etc. The problem for me is when Schiff writes in his book about different keys having different characters: it makes no sense in ET!
In my opinion your comment is spot on. I'm not convinced by Lehman though as he put the strongest keys around 3 and 4 accidentals so go for the more traditional well temperaments. ua-cam.com/video/7JF3YzTG7lU/v-deo.html might be of interest
In Equal Tempered tuning, it makes no sense indeed to transpose a piece on a keyboard.
Then why did Bach write pieces in different keys?
I think that his intention was that they would sound different.
And for that, you need an kind of "irregular" tuning.
"great Bach interpreters have played the WTC in ET without finding any problem with" is a meaningless statement. Since equal temperament, we all have lost the habit of listening in the nuanced ways that different tunings allow for. Some people have learned this again and discover music from before the 20th C anew. I find great problems with the ET by versions of "great Bach interpreters" of the WC.
I'm pretty sure you're right that it makes no difference to the average listener. We're all deeply programmed by the enormous amount of time we have music coming at us, and these days it's predominantly ET (unless we've a strong ethnic musical background), so we're used to semitones all being the twelfth root of two apart. Rather than just being something we put up with - not noticing all the slightly imperfect harmonics - ET sounds right and beautiful to modern ears, and, as history attests, the equality of the intervals across the whole range is an enormous benefit to compositional range. There's a tendency to find fault with anything current and see it as inferior to some secret method of old, forgetting that at the time ET was invented it was a wonder, and it's stuck around because it's wonderful, not because it isn't good enough.
Try listening to a pipe organ tuned to an old temperament. Everyone can hear that
What a great way to add to a tea-break - touching blissful levels of enjoyment. Only JS Bach can do this to me 🥰😂🤣😂
I think I perceive the effect, although it sounds so subtle that I wonder if it isn't caused by suggestion (you explaining the different moods before playing, leading the hearer to look after them)
I think that for an expert like Bach, the effect was immediately obvious.
I sometimes don’t have faith in my ear and thought the same thing
There is a real difference. But it is much more subtle in this temperament than in the historically documented temperaments, e.g. those of Werckmeister or Bach's student Kirnberger. Also, the differently-tuned intervals are harder to hear on a piano, with its decaying sustained tone, than on e.g. an organ, whose sustained tones maintain their power.
@Stacy Caruso Hello! I think you'll find that in the video he is talking about the key being coarse, as you mentioned. Technique can't change that, so you must have misunderstood him. I think it is rude and very innacurate to say that he isn't a very good musician, just because you don't have a good enough ear to here what good musicians can. Ironic huh? This is also a stupid comment about this man's inentions... hypocrit.
@@eog5038 ... or on a harpsichord with its wealth of harmonics.
On the other hand there is an enormous difference between actually being in the room with a real piano - even a medium-range upright - and listening to it via UA-cam, even with a decent stereo or good headphones. The same applies for other instruments of course.
Very sensitive playing, but one small point. I could be wrong, but I thought that ornaments in this period were supposed to be played ON the beat. So rather than `ta, ta, DA` (`DA` being the beat as, in the E major prelude), it would be `DA, ta, ta`, the first note of the ornament coinciding with the beat.
5:19 vs 5:40
great video thanks !
I listened to Bach Book I many times and something puzzled me from the first hearing:Sound was too high pitched.Now I know why.I prefer this tuning from Larip.Much more interesting.
I think there's an interesting discussion to be had around intent. After all, I hear the differences between the keys here, buuuut I mostly experience it as the piano sounding slightly but not very out of tune because I'm not used to it and will never be as used to it as I am with the equal temperament I've listened to for 40 years.
It kiiinda has an effect of igniting my interest in the pieces, purely because the slight off-tuning sound of it makes me pay attention, but to be frank I'm not sure that's Bach's intended effect any more than Equal temperament. In a way I think there's an argument that to get close as possible to the music one might do well to experience it in the tuning system that I'm most used to. After all, I'm used to equal temperament and Bach is used to whatever tuning system he actually used. So when I hear it in equal temperament I hear the pieces free of being distracted by off-sounding notes, just as Bach would have done. It's just that our conceptions of what sounds 'off' differ.
Something is lost in the translation, true, but I think not all that much. We've most of us enjoyed listening to these pieces in equal temperament perfectly well before we knew there was any other way to listen, and as interesting as the history of tuning is, I have to confess I find it more historically fascinating than musically.
pianos tuned in equal temperament always sound out of tune in every damn key !!!
@@johnholmes912 I don't believe you really believe that, unless you also believe that almost all the music you've ever listened to in your entire life sounds out of tune, which I think is unlikely since our ears adjust to the tuning we are used to. All forms of tuning are some sort of compromise, and while there are decent arguments that something is lost with ET, it's still the tuning system the western world has adopted for nearly two centuries and so nothing can convince me that anyone could truly think it sounds out of tune.
@@petersilktubeit's not that it sounds out of tune but I experience it as a lack of depth somehow in the music. However, if I just hear ET I certainly wouldn't notice it, it's only when comparing the same piece back to back. Like this example here:ua-cam.com/video/gu3aNFzj6KA/v-deo.htmlsi=bXnItvNsRd0wXin9 something about the ET version is lifeless in comparison
@@cl9826 I do understand that, the fact is there were subtle differences between the qualities of the keys before ET standardisation. I think that's true, but I also think it's very hard to understand how the music was intended to be heard, because we all live in a world where nearly almost all music we hear is 12TET, and so even when hearing it in what might be the intended tuning, it's impossible not to compare it to ET, that's our frame of reference. I'm glad you get something out of listening in this way. I get things out of listening to tunes in different ways too. Sometimes if I hear a piece on a different instrument or transposed to a different key, or sped up or slow down I discover new depths in the music - but this doesn't necessarily mean something intentional is being restored that was missing, it might just mean that because it's different to how I usually hear the piece, I'm listening to it more carefully, not taking it for granted. I'm not yet convinced that listening in a different tuning system can be done in a vacuum, free from decades of ear training on 12TET, but I do think that it can give us a new way of hearing a piece that might help us to rediscover it.
I have just asked Yamaha why they don't have an option to change the temperament on their digital keyboards. I've noticed that certain octave and certain chords are dissonant. And I'm no Jacob Collier.
Would be nice if my electric piano had a “well tempered” setting. I could find the numbers and tune each key but I don’t think I can save a preset on my fp30.
Bach actually originally wrote the Prelude in C# for C Major but then converted it to C# for the book. He probably felt it suited C# well and used it. But he didn’t write the “C# prelude” *for* C# but felt it worked well for it. anyways doesn’t really matter that much but just an interesting little historical fact.
I wonder where you found this info...
@@bolhommeable Yes, me too...
This is the case for the Book 2 C# Major prelude, where we have surviving earlier versions in C Major. There is no evidence this was the case for the Book 1 C# Major prelude, which is played in this video.
Thank you for this explanation. I'll start treating JSB's Inventions with more respect!
Would E major be considered the darkest major key in Lehman Bach Temperament?
2:23 Why does it sound brighter ?
I agree it's very subtle, much more obvious when you're up close. I'm going to redo this video soon I hope with more clarity.
Is there a hertz chart listing the exact frequencies?
55years i must Grandfather Bachs Music in Equal.With His Cent Fakes he murdered the tonal Tuning.This ist a good Idea...
I think the F major is worse for that flat high note. I think the E major is just a boysterous middle aged woman laughing in that true comedy of a mild sadness. Lovely tuning, and fine playing, and thanks for the examples. This could be broken up as a great stage lecture against the full pieces played to follow, if your're looking for a show idea.
Now do this all in A432hz. The sonic differences will be even more apparent
Fascinating presentation. It takes some adjusting, as we are just so accustomed to ET. Your other recordings of the WTC seem to be in ET, if my hearing is correct. Do you know of any piano recordings in well-temperament?
I wonder if the rather harsh attack of the piano makes it less suitable for more colourful temperaments. What's your opinion?
Yes the brightness of the timbre (which is to do with the small scaling on this small instrument) does create problems when tempering the thirds and fifths, tending to exaggerate the peculiarities further. In the end for now I prefer to keep the piano in ET - even that is quite hard and there are some variables which can improve the tone of the thirds, like not over-stretching too much in the higher octaves. Tuning is an infinite art, like playing! I have tried all sorts of temperament. Koval is an interesting one - it is scaleable to different intensities and has mild tunings which give some difference between different keys but is closer to ET over all. Some of the other recordings are not very good due to inexperience with the microphones and production, and also tuning problems - I think this adds to the harsh sound. I am working on some better recordings of the second half of Book One but these will be in ET. In answer to your question about whether another pianist has done tempered recordings the answer is definitely yes but I have forgotten the details - you may find it on Spotify or another streaming service. If I come across it again I will make a further reply. Charles.
@@charlestebbs Many thanks for your reply Charles. Good to know your experiences with WTC on various temperaments on the piano, as it's something I've been wanting to try for a long time, but found an opportunity. Certainly interested in this Koval tuning and also if you can remember the name of the piano recording, I'd be very keen to know. It seems harder to find something via google than one might think.
What is the frequency of A on this piano? How was that frequency chosen?
Funny, I've never heard of Brad Lehman...at our house we associate a different name and a different publication author with writing about Bach's style of piano and organ tuning...
(Sort of the way my old high school friend, Mrs Jennifer Silvia, nee Paxton, said to me once, long ago, when we were planning a get together at the zoo, and I started quoting a Paul Simon song about the zoo, and Jennifer was silent for a moment on the phone and then said, in a slightly miffed voice, "At our house, we sing a different song about Going To the Zoo, zoo, zoo.....How about you?"
Church organs are still around from the C18 . . . how are they tuned/tempered? Not equally, I presume.
In Bach's day you had different tuning in different places
I'd love to know how Lehman "discovered" this tuning... it seems like it'd be hard to actually prove.
From the curly drawing at the top of the cover of the Well Tempered Clavier, which he interpreted as a tuning instruction.
Wait are you the Music Matters guy?
♥️👍
How did pianos sound pre Bach then?
18th*
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gottfried_Silbermann
silent. pianos had not yet been invented. Keyboard instruments, like the harpsichord, organ, and clavichord, were tuned in a variety of tuning systems and pitches.
The subtitles(computer generated of course!)are ridiculous: Bach becomes bark, and groan drone🤣
"Bach becomes Bark." Perhaps the computer thinks Tebbs is from Boston.
much superior to modern tuning............now try it at Bach's pitch
Maybe Bach was very bipolar in his lifespan. Perhaps that's why his music was so bilateral in notes... expressing his intrinsic, instantaneous, temperamental changes.
I highly recommend John Elliot Gardiner's book "Music in the Castle of Heaven" on Bach, his character and his music. For instance, he had quite a nasty temper at times - one bassoonist was so angry with his comments they nearly had a sword fight. Nobody is perfect, not even musical geniuses!
It sounds awful to my ears.
In a similar way, when you get used to C major or F major in this temperament, other chords that are close to equal temperament like D and E flat major for example, can themselves start to sound less pleasant than usual. It is all relative. However, the scaling on this piano, and the inharmonicity, does seem to exaggerate and intensify the effect. I haven't used the temperament for a while, and I think other larger pianos may be more suited to it. I do know at least one concert pianist who uses it but it sounds very different on his instrument than mine.
@@charlestebbsThe Instrument in which it sounds best is of course the harpsichord, clavichird and the organ, don't be ignorant please.