Some years back, l was reading up on Rachmaninov. He claimed that, during his formative years of piano study, his piano was in a well-temperament and that, when confronted with an equal-tempered instrument, he mentally visualised the tuning he was accustomed to from his youth. Thank you for your wonderful and informative videos. I find the Young Temperament very convincing and wish you lived only a suburb away so l could beg you to tune my aging piano and make it forever Young. Greetings from Australia.
Bought a BB two months ago. Got a Coleman 11 WT. Definitely adds "color". Took a little getting used to. Will be interesting to soon try an ET piano in a store.
I am a huge fan of unequal temperaments. Fortunately I have a piano tuner nearby in Zürich that is able to tune any kind of temperament with TuneLab . I am exploring around a lot with different tunings. Every 9 months or so I let it tune in a different temperament. I started with a crazy tuning that had a completely pure major 3rd and a completely pure 5th in C. The keys with many accidentals sounded quite "sour", obviously. But the keys with few accidentals have sounded a bit too calm for my taste. So currently I have my piano tuned in Werckmeister III, and it sounds so "happy" and warm. Next round I want to try the Bach - Lehmann temperament and experience the secret (?) of the tuning scheme (most probably) on the front page of Bach's "Das wohltemperierte Klavier". I'll see to where my journey through different temperaments will lead me. But one thing is just a fact by now: I simply can't stand equal tuning anymore. It's too boring to my ears, now that I have discovered temperament. 🤩
@@Mykelclassic Search in Musik Hug in Zürich. But actually, quite a lot of piano tuners can temperate your piano as you want. It's a whole universe and gives room to endless variations. On UA-cam look at the videos of "latribe", a French pianist that plays and records only in unequal tuning. There is quite a lot about the theory of unequal tunings here on UA-cam, especially the traditional baroque tunings like Kirnberger, Werckmeister, Vallotti, Rameau etc. In Germany it is the piano technician Mr. Wolfgang Wiese who is very much into the research of unequal tunings. Once you dare diving into this world, you will find quite a lot. Enjoy the adventure! Many kind greetings to you.
That sounds amazing. I'd love to hear the intro in neighbouring keys (G minor and A minor) to get a feel for the differences. I'd heard a few people describe keys as having different qualities in non-ET tunings, but have been playing in standard tuning for so long that the concept is foreign to me, despite having some sense of absolute pitch.
Are you suggesting another video on the science behind the difference between Classical and Modern tunings? I do this quite a bit when I lecture for piano technicians, and so I could get into the weeds in great detail about the science and acoustic physics behind the differences between various tunings for a video, however I would think most musicians would find that quite boring. My intention in general for this channel is to demonstrate to the artist the aesthetic point of view, or the musicality, so musicians would better understand it from a musical or emotional standpoint. However, let me know if you or anyone else would be interested in a video on the science behind the various tunings.
Another thing, often overlooked by players, is voicing of the piano. There's a famous story about Arturo Benedetti Michelangeli (ABM) preparing for his first performance in Carnegie Hall. Relative to European music halls, with some 2,000 seats it is about twice as large as a large one, this side of the pond. ABM was afraid that the sound of the piano would lose some of the overtones (sparkle) and ordered his tuner to make the piano brighter. Which the tuner did. Then ABM tested it and wanted brighter. This may have been repeated two more times or so. The morning after the concert, one of the leading US newspapers (like WP or NYT) had the review, paraphrased here: ABM played beautifully but his piano was awfully bright. ABM was afraid that 2,000 people, women in fur coats, would suck the sparkle out of his sound. Two lessons: (a) they did not suck the light out of the music, (b) "voicing" can totally change an instrument. This is all about the felt on the hammers, its shape and compactness or fluffiness. Or, an idea for a video along these lines?
Notice the preponderance of the perfect fifths and fourths in this piece. Only well temperaments would have justly tuned fifths that Rachmaninoff used in this piece. Equal tempered fifths are almost pure, but they are still tempered enough to lose the resonance that comes with a justly tuned fifth. Because of the purity of the fifths in the right hand, the left hand tends to be interpreted more melodically, which works well in this key because the minor tonality becomes more Pythagorean-like, with flattened 3rd, 6th, and 7th degree notes of the scale. In equal temperament, the relation is lost because the dissonance in a G# minor triad is contributed both by the 3rd and the 5th. In well temperament, only the minor 3rd contributes, and thus its character is more easily heard.
I still remember the piano tuner that visited my home to tune mother's piano mentioning he would changed to a slightly different tuning. IIRC in the late 1960s. This video's demonstration makes total sense - thank you for that. And I feel it should be obligatory for pianists in music conservatories to rehearse-play some reference pieces on instruments with old action designs and well-tempered tuning, preferably with middle A at the frequency of the time. No, I don't prefer the sound of old instruments, but it informs about the (technical) character of a composition and hence may influence artistic interpretation. To my modern instrument preference, I have to add, though, that playing a subtle Chopin piece that never gets louder than ff on a Steinway D in a large concert hall where ff needs to be played as fff - totally sucks, especially when a world famous pianist drives the D into what's called "clipping" in electronics.
The Steinway D could not be played with a dynamic suitable for Chopin's music? I have always wondered if it is my ears, tinnitus, which cause me to dislike Chopin on Steinway. But then again some pianists can, Blechatz for one, Vikingur, no I should mention many more ❤❤❤
Is is possible that Horowitz´ piano was tuned well tempered? He has a unique crisp in his performances unlike other pianists in his era, so it cant be the recording setup, right?
I've heard him playing Chopin (which was amazing), but I haven't heard him playing his own works. I'm not an authority on it, but my guess is that the recordings are of piano rolls he made, which can very widely with tempo and tuning. It's a good question though.
@@RadfordPiano hmm, Rachmaninoff composed most of his work early in his life and then played as a concert pianist for his later years. More just curious if you can tell. This claims to be an early recording (and I doubt this is a piano roll) ua-cam.com/video/qNDz3-Uaf6o/v-deo.html
Aka early enough that he probably did compose for a well-temperament (perhaps less "spicy" than Prinz for sure!) but perhaps played on Equal Temperament. But just curious what you make of this recording. Also, of course, just because they thought it was Equal Temperament doesn't mean that it actually was.
There's a recording of rachmaninoff (Not a piano roll) playing one of his pieces. Is it in the well tempered tuning? I can't exactly tell: ua-cam.com/video/cFubuY7flCo/v-deo.html
You can get an idea of temperament from any recording using the right app. It won’t be 100% accurate but will give you an indication. Harmonics for android has a feature that can analyse the sound.
It’s wonderful to see others using unequal temperaments. Young or Valotti are not my favourite though, they aren’t quite pure enough in the home keys for my liking. Streets ahead of nasty and lifeless Equal though.
Thanks, and I fully agree! You can check out the Brahms recordings I did which use the Prinz Temperament, which has a lot more pure intervals in the simpler keys and more color variation throughout: ua-cam.com/video/LWGLkP1UN30/v-deo.html
Sorry, don't see the connection between the explanation and the performance. Maybe, I am tone deaf re the explanation and have the musical memory of greater performance of this piece in my head. Not carping, only giving what I perceive, understand and remember.
Why do so few western musicians and musicologists neglect the commonly held Russian belief that Rachmaninoff was heavily influenced by the technology and sound of bells, church bells?
Sounds the exact same. The whole "still still agitated" stuff is just you deluding yourself conciously, you don't actually unconciously recognize that when hearing the music.
They don't sound the same at all actually. It's quite obvious when compared side by side with the modern tuning, which I didn't do in this video, however I did in another video where you can hear the same effect compared in different tunings in Bach's C# major prelude: ua-cam.com/video/AUgJ4PjNdzI/v-deo.htmlsi=Sy2g548-Hjjjkt-8
@@RadfordPiano it's obvious when compared side by side, because they're both in direct contradiction with each other. On their own they're nearly identical. You don't actually hear a difference.
Some years back, l was reading up on Rachmaninov. He claimed that, during his formative years of piano study, his piano was in a well-temperament and that, when confronted with an equal-tempered instrument, he mentally visualised the tuning he was accustomed to from his youth. Thank you for your wonderful and informative videos. I find the Young Temperament very convincing and wish you lived only a suburb away so l could beg you to tune my aging piano and make it forever Young.
Greetings from Australia.
That's interesting, thanks. Forever Young. ha, good one.
Do you have a source for this?
Perfect work to demonstrate your point! Wonderful playing!
Beautifully played, by the way!
Wonderful temperament! I need to try some of these well temperaments on my 1906 Mason & Hamlin AA.
I think Rachmaninoff's works are best suited on M&H instruments, and the AA would be quite glorious.
Bought a BB two months ago. Got a Coleman 11 WT. Definitely adds "color". Took a little getting used to. Will be interesting to soon try an ET piano in a store.
I am a huge fan of unequal temperaments. Fortunately I have a piano tuner nearby in Zürich that is able to tune any kind of temperament with TuneLab . I am exploring around a lot with different tunings. Every 9 months or so I let it tune in a different temperament.
I started with a crazy tuning that had a completely pure major 3rd and a completely pure 5th in C. The keys with many accidentals sounded quite "sour", obviously. But the keys with few accidentals have sounded a bit too calm for my taste.
So currently I have my piano tuned in Werckmeister III, and it sounds so "happy" and warm.
Next round I want to try the Bach - Lehmann temperament and experience the secret (?) of the tuning scheme (most probably) on the front page of Bach's "Das wohltemperierte Klavier". I'll see to where my journey through different temperaments will lead me.
But one thing is just a fact by now: I simply can't stand equal tuning anymore. It's too boring to my ears, now that I have discovered temperament. 🤩
Great to hear. Sometimes the journey is the destination, and a fun journey it can be.
If you search up 'thebpl', there's a great explanation by bradley lehman although the videos are very old.
Pls i will like to meet the said paino tuner. I belive i will learn alot from him.
@@Mykelclassic Search in Musik Hug in Zürich.
But actually, quite a lot of piano tuners can temperate your piano as you want. It's a whole universe and gives room to endless variations.
On UA-cam look at the videos of "latribe", a French pianist that plays and records only in unequal tuning.
There is quite a lot about the theory of unequal tunings here on UA-cam, especially the traditional baroque tunings like Kirnberger, Werckmeister, Vallotti, Rameau etc.
In Germany it is the piano technician Mr. Wolfgang Wiese who is very much into the research of unequal tunings.
Once you dare diving into this world, you will find quite a lot.
Enjoy the adventure!
Many kind greetings to you.
This tuning makes so much more sense for this piece. Thank you!
That sounds amazing. I'd love to hear the intro in neighbouring keys (G minor and A minor) to get a feel for the differences. I'd heard a few people describe keys as having different qualities in non-ET tunings, but have been playing in standard tuning for so long that the concept is foreign to me, despite having some sense of absolute pitch.
wow this is a very interesting lesson! Thank you so much!
My pleasure, and thanks for saying so!
I love love the foundation in terms of science behind the reasoning of doing something.
Oh, wait...
Are you suggesting another video on the science behind the difference between Classical and Modern tunings? I do this quite a bit when I lecture for piano technicians, and so I could get into the weeds in great detail about the science and acoustic physics behind the differences between various tunings for a video, however I would think most musicians would find that quite boring.
My intention in general for this channel is to demonstrate to the artist the aesthetic point of view, or the musicality, so musicians would better understand it from a musical or emotional standpoint. However, let me know if you or anyone else would be interested in a video on the science behind the various tunings.
That punch line though 😂
Another thing, often overlooked by players, is voicing of the piano. There's a famous story about Arturo Benedetti Michelangeli (ABM) preparing for his first performance in Carnegie Hall. Relative to European music halls, with some 2,000 seats it is about twice as large as a large one, this side of the pond. ABM was afraid that the sound of the piano would lose some of the overtones (sparkle) and ordered his tuner to make the piano brighter. Which the tuner did. Then ABM tested it and wanted brighter. This may have been repeated two more times or so.
The morning after the concert, one of the leading US newspapers (like WP or NYT) had the review, paraphrased here: ABM played beautifully but his piano was awfully bright. ABM was afraid that 2,000 people, women in fur coats, would suck the sparkle out of his sound. Two lessons: (a) they did not suck the light out of the music, (b) "voicing" can totally change an instrument.
This is all about the felt on the hammers, its shape and compactness or fluffiness.
Or, an idea for a video along these lines?
Yes, voicing makes a huge difference, no matter what the temperament.
5:55 crazy how that D sounds very flat in this tuning
Notice the preponderance of the perfect fifths and fourths in this piece. Only well temperaments would have justly tuned fifths that Rachmaninoff used in this piece. Equal tempered fifths are almost pure, but they are still tempered enough to lose the resonance that comes with a justly tuned fifth. Because of the purity of the fifths in the right hand, the left hand tends to be interpreted more melodically, which works well in this key because the minor tonality becomes more Pythagorean-like, with flattened 3rd, 6th, and 7th degree notes of the scale.
In equal temperament, the relation is lost because the dissonance in a G# minor triad is contributed both by the 3rd and the 5th. In well temperament, only the minor 3rd contributes, and thus its character is more easily heard.
Always love your insightful and well considered observations.
Such uttern nonsense. This is literally the exact same as equal temperament tuning, you're deluding yourself through placebo.
Also it's so tyoical of you to hold cultish beliefs towards temperaments aswell.
I still remember the piano tuner that visited my home to tune mother's piano mentioning he would changed to a slightly different tuning. IIRC in the late 1960s.
This video's demonstration makes total sense - thank you for that.
And I feel it should be obligatory for pianists in music conservatories to rehearse-play some reference pieces on instruments with old action designs and well-tempered tuning, preferably with middle A at the frequency of the time.
No, I don't prefer the sound of old instruments, but it informs about the (technical) character of a composition and hence may influence artistic interpretation.
To my modern instrument preference, I have to add, though, that playing a subtle Chopin piece that never gets louder than ff on a Steinway D in a large concert hall where ff needs to be played as fff - totally sucks, especially when a world famous pianist drives the D into what's called "clipping" in electronics.
The Steinway D could not be played with a dynamic suitable for Chopin's music? I have always wondered if it is my ears, tinnitus, which cause me to dislike Chopin on Steinway. But then again some pianists can, Blechatz for one, Vikingur, no I should mention many more ❤❤❤
PPS which well tuning did you use? (Prince again?) PPPS Beautiful!
Thank you. No, not Prinz this time. Thomas Young.
Is is possible that Horowitz´ piano was tuned well tempered?
He has a unique crisp in his performances unlike other pianists in his era, so it cant be the recording setup, right?
No, that's nonsense. I played the Horowitz piano right before a recital and spoke to his technician, Franz Mohr. I'd say your hearing is off.
@@OE1FEU it was just a theory because no One can achieve his Sound, Not even nowdays on his Piano
the difference between bs eq temperment and a closer version of just intonation is absolutely staggering
Aren't there recordings of Rachmaninoff playing his own music? PS he played them super fast, no?
I've heard him playing Chopin (which was amazing), but I haven't heard him playing his own works. I'm not an authority on it, but my guess is that the recordings are of piano rolls he made, which can very widely with tempo and tuning. It's a good question though.
@@RadfordPiano hmm, Rachmaninoff composed most of his work early in his life and then played as a concert pianist for his later years. More just curious if you can tell. This claims to be an early recording (and I doubt this is a piano roll) ua-cam.com/video/qNDz3-Uaf6o/v-deo.html
Aka early enough that he probably did compose for a well-temperament (perhaps less "spicy" than Prinz for sure!) but perhaps played on Equal Temperament. But just curious what you make of this recording. Also, of course, just because they thought it was Equal Temperament doesn't mean that it actually was.
PS dunno if you've heard of Bill Bremmer's modern well temperament EBVT, but just thought I'd mention in case.
@@dsummerhays Yes, I know Bill and his EBVT. It is a quasi equal temperament, despite the name. There is no key color.
There's a recording of rachmaninoff (Not a piano roll) playing one of his pieces. Is it in the well tempered tuning? I can't exactly tell: ua-cam.com/video/cFubuY7flCo/v-deo.html
It's very hard to discern the tuning with old recordings, especially with faster tempo pieces.
You can get an idea of temperament from any recording using the right app. It won’t be 100% accurate but will give you an indication. Harmonics for android has a feature that can analyse the sound.
It’s wonderful to see others using unequal temperaments. Young or Valotti are not my favourite though, they aren’t quite pure enough in the home keys for my liking. Streets ahead of nasty and lifeless Equal though.
Thanks, and I fully agree! You can check out the Brahms recordings I did which use the Prinz Temperament, which has a lot more pure intervals in the simpler
keys and more color variation throughout: ua-cam.com/video/LWGLkP1UN30/v-deo.html
Sorry, don't see the connection between the explanation and the performance. Maybe, I am tone deaf re the explanation and have the musical memory of greater performance of this piece in my head. Not carping, only giving what I perceive, understand and remember.
I'm not sure if Rachmaninoff used this Tuning or Equal Temperment, because he forgot to write it down in a note.
Why do so few western musicians and musicologists neglect the commonly held Russian belief that Rachmaninoff was heavily influenced by the technology and sound of bells, church bells?
440 hrz or 432 hrz?
440. I will be doing a video on this shortly, so stay tuned!
Actually, it's easier to play with alot of accidentals
Right hand opening figure is too loud and the left hand is too soft.
Sounds the exact same. The whole "still still agitated" stuff is just you deluding yourself conciously, you don't actually unconciously recognize that when hearing the music.
They don't sound the same at all actually. It's quite obvious when compared side by side with the modern tuning, which I didn't do in this video, however I did in another video where you can hear the same effect compared in different tunings in Bach's C# major prelude: ua-cam.com/video/AUgJ4PjNdzI/v-deo.htmlsi=Sy2g548-Hjjjkt-8
@@RadfordPiano it's obvious when compared side by side, because they're both in direct contradiction with each other. On their own they're nearly identical. You don't actually hear a difference.