Machining Cast Iron Wheels for an Antique Vise Cart
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- Опубліковано 5 жов 2024
- Machining Cast Iron Wheels for an Antique Vise Cart
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I dont understand why some folks have to knock Keiths method of fixture. He is demonstrating his method! If you got 20 machinist they would all have their own way of arriving at the end result. Just be grateful that Keith makes these videos for our enjoyment. I will continue to be a patreon despite the knockers!
Picky Picky Picky. it is a vise cart. not going down the road 60 mph. it will do the job it was designed for PERFECTLY. Thks Kieth for showing us how to do it.
Really enjoy watching you work Mr. Rucker! I know a lot of the stuff you do is highly specialized usually on very old equipment that no longer exists. I know that there are a lot of other “experts” who come to point out how poor your work is yet they keep coming back to criticize your work. Thanks for your kind patience.😜🇺🇸
Funny how that is
Lining the spokes up to the lathe jaws - I like things like that! Top job as usual, Keith!
I've been watching your videos for years. You and UA-cam are the only exposure to machining and machinists I have. I'm amazed by how many of your viewers will tell you in the comments what you "should" have done rather than what you "could" have done. Some seem a bit rude to me but I doubt you care at all. Your attitude about the many ways to get a job done doesn't seem to be shared by all of your commenters. Maybe that's just YT for you! Thanks for the education and the interesting content!
For anyone who watched this and felt the need to come down here to the peanut gallery and talk about how Mr. Kieth "shoulda done this or that", why? There is such a thing as overengineering, and I think you're missing the point. These are not precision gears or pulleys, they're literally wheels for a cart. This method was about two orders of magnitude more precise than was necessary for the project at hand. Had more precision been necessary, the castings would not have been done off of an original, but would have been turned into a 3D render and a pattern would have been made oversized to allow for much finer resolution of operation. The fixture would have been different, the process would have been different. If more precise parallelism had been needed between the inner and outer hub face, once the shaft and recessed hub face had been done, he could have done the other side on the surface grinder by simply magging the recessed face to a cylindrical gauge block of appropriate diameter and ground it to within .00005 without much difficulty. This would have taken more time, and again, would be completely unnecessary. If you don't need to hit 99.999999999% of nominal, why spend all the extra time on doing so? Particularly in a production environment, even if you're just a hobbyist making one off parts, why would you want to pour an extra 10 hours of work into a project for no reason? Give the customer what they want, for a price they can afford, and don't waste their money adding "billable hours" to a project that doesn't need it. Truthfully, Mr. Keith's approach was already far more precise than was necessary. He could've been anywhere from five to fifty thou out in any dimension, and it would not make an appreciable difference to the end result of this project. But because Mr. Keith is a proper machinist, he tends to go a couple of orders of magnitude finer than what is actually needed.
I like to see the adjustments such as using the work holding fixture and the clamps to hold the wheels.
I have always like these type of videos. They remind me of the type of machining that I was taught years ago. When I was learning we had no CNC, we had a tape drive that (when it worked) could turn material down. Most times we were turning things manually.
Making tools is how the world got made. Great job. Something about lathe work is really enjoyable to me. Thanks for the video.
Thanks Keith! I’ve always thought of machinists as modern day Wizards!
Every time I watch a UA-cam machinist it’s because I found them through you.
Good job on getting those rough cart wheel castings in shape,sweet Arbor to,thanks for the video🤗😎🤗😎
Thanks Keith like the job thanks for sharing
Good evening to all from SE Louisiana 22 Jun 22.
You did a wheel good job.
Keith: I think it's not so much making the actual part, but the problem solving, and making the fixtures that is the most interesting. You give us solutions to our future problems. Thanks for the video, and see you at the Bar-Z. Jon
He got Covid and can't make it to Bar-Z, sadly.
I watched Clarke make these! SO COOL.
I want to start by saying that I enjoy your videos tremendously, both my Dad and Grandpa were tool and die makers, I even ran and owned an automotive machine shop till I decided to become a city manager and fire chief, strange choice for a mechanical engineer, I am retired now and reverting back to my machinist days, I’m wondering if you considered making a shaft threaded on one end and a cone washer to center it to cut the second side or would that be a bad choice, keep making those great videos !!
They are probably better than original. I can remember items with wheels like that, still in service, when I was a kid: old hand trucks, scales, and carts. They were rarely true or straight, and it wasn't uncommon that three wheels would be touching the ground and the fourth sitting well off the ground. I think they were made for working on dirt floors, and once concrete became more common, they just weren't meant for something that flat.
That is SO true. We still have some old carts with these irregular off concentric castings. PLUS some cheapo recent crookedly cast caster wheels, made in China, of course!
Congrats Keith on getting the Cart Wheels looking great. the owner will like the work.
I love to watch how ppl do things compared to how i would. I would have done the first op just like you but for the 2nd op, threaded the fixture hub post and clamped down with a nut. I wouldn't have used the round fixture plate. I also would've added machine stock to the pattern, however, like you said, they should work fine with the minimal clean up you got. Thanks for sharing your projects!
It’s amazing to watch you think your way through the problem and devise a working solution. You have a very logical mind. As to other comments as to “ugly looking parts” It’s a wheel for an antique vise cart. When laid out next to the original wheels, the only major difference I could detect was rust. Darn fine work in my book.
They're not using the Original Wheels, thats why they cast 6 new ones.
@@TheUncleRuckus they cast the new ones using the original wheels as a pattern. Did you not understand or are you being obtuse?
@@TheUncleRuckus I was under the impression that there are 8 wheels(4 sets of 2 ) on the cart, 2 old, 6 new(cast from molds of the old ones)
I continue to thoroughly enjoy this channel. Hope you haven't given up on the stoker engine - love to see that restored to life.
That circular plate on the fixture was a bit perplexing until I realized how it fit against the irregular rough cast spokes and inside of the wheel didn’t matter. Thanks for the interesting insight into real-life - plan a, plan b, plan c.
Great solution to the problem. Thanks for the video. Keep on keeping on.
Great video Keith, keep'um coming.
Thank you for sharing. Enjoyed.
I like how you isolated the register surfaces with the fixture. Seems to have worked well and all the parts are the same "value." A lesson in patient machining.
Thanks, Keith.
That is an interesting idea! Thanks for sharing Keith! God bless, take care!🙏🎚🇲🇾🇲🇾🇲🇾
I don't know much about 3-D printing or machine shop work, but from what I've seen if a 3-D printer was avaialable, it might be an ideal tool to make the pattern to the original size plus extra for machining. Contrary to your critics, making new parts from old worn out parts as a guide is difficult at best. Can't expect too much precision with what you had to work with. Besides, a vise cart is not likely to be a high speed piece of equipment. Excellent job and problem solving skill in this (and other) projects. Keep 'em coming.
One needs to adjust for shrinkage as the metal cools also. My father in law was a pattern maker and had a set of shrink rulers for different metals so that an accurate pattern could be made.
God’s speed on getting healthy Keith!
Don't want you getting sick!
When you use the original wheels as patterns, just put a layer of putty or layers of tape strips to get the thicker rim.
Am I missing something here. If the depth gauge measured 950 then why set the DRO to 9375. Surely they'll all be too thin? Also the attempt at making everything concentric seems to have gone horribly wrong. Whilst turning the second side OD (about 25:50) the inner boss has a right wriggle going on. This might have been due to the huge amount of leverage on the holding clamps being so distant from the centre boss. Having taken a skim off the outer rim area on side one, why not use this as the register? Just a thought.
The video still gets a thumbs up from me as we don't want to loose sight of what we are making here. These are cast wheels for an ancient cart. Thanks for taking time to produce these videos Keith.
Thanks. I take it the trolley setup has three two part wheels. Jim Bell (Australia)
Nice fixture. I would never have figured that out on my own.
Good session on how to fixture these parts to all be true and concentric. I once bought some cast iron caster wheels that were economical (cheep) and found out when they were mounted they were not concentric with the axel and turned out to be skids rather than wheels.
Chinese, right ?
@@loftsatsympaticodotc of course
When molding the sand for the pattern, would it work to wrap the original item in tape or similar, to give it some more thickness for later machining ?
I like your fixturing and holding solution.
On the other hand you measured the hub thickness .950'' and then cut the new one's at .9375 . Did you screw up the parts or was your initial measurement wrong on the mic reading?
I was wondering the same thing. We'll probably never know.
As the wheel was only registered against tge centre boss and then clamped near the rim, the clamping method used actually pulled the wheels out of true. You can see the run out of the bore as the second sidebis turned it would have been better to either register on the rim after it had been trued and/and or to indicate the bore to confirm that it was running true, as the clamping method used vs the small bearing surface ensured the screws could/would pull the part off true..
We fully appreciate your criticism as I am a bug for precision too.. HOWEVER these are freekin' antique CART WHEELs, operating at a max rpm of... maybe 15 rolling on a wooden floor- NOT jet engine turbine rings running at 20,000 rpm !
@@loftsatsympaticodotc it's about wokmanship, and doing things as precise as possible. Why not just use a hand drill and call it good then?
@@daveanderson2316 He did make it as precise as possible! There are high and low spots in the floor so Keith made matching high and low spots in the wheels. Now the carts will roll effortlessly across the floor as though it was on a cushion of air. It is called "tailor made".
If you walked into a tailor shop and saw a suit on the rack with one short arm and a short leg, you would laugh and criticize it and the poor tailor that made it. Until the owner walked in with one short arm and a short leg. Then when he tried it on you would see that the suit was perfect. If you carefully read the scriptures you will learn that perfect only means complete. Everything God made was perfect for what He intended it for. Perfection is NOT some imaginary mark in the mind of a spectator/critic, it is a very real mark in the mind of the creator, regardless if he is God or Keith Rucker. PERFECTION IS DEFINED BY INTENT OF THE AUTHOR/CREATOR.
@@artszabo1015 Thanks for the sermon. Perfection is actually in the numbers.
@@daveanderson2316 Here is what baffles me. A moron discussing perfection.
I would like to see a photograph of the finished cart, at the beginning of this video.
Interesting video, sir! Still waiting for an update video on the Dyresta band saw restoration, I imagine you finished it by now, but you haven't mentioned it for awhile.
Fun project !!
I wonder if what the complainers about the part apparently shifting so the rim wasn't true are getting caught by the camera's image stabilisation? I have seen that effect on a rotating part when a drill bit touches the centre dimple and it appears (to us) to jump a bit. It is just caused by the camera's stabilisation.
So the 'complainers' don't notice things? I noticed that the drill for the centre hole was sharpened badly, so that only one flute was cutting well, which probably made the hole bigger than expected. I won't say any more because people take observations so personally. I love the channel, and its atmosphere, but I do like observing.
To add more meat to the outer portion of those wheels, Why didn't Clark wrap the out side of them with some type of tape to increase their diameter? I really enjoy these fixture hold videos to solve a problem.
I'm not sure, but I don't believe Clark is here to answer your question!
Your welded on backing plate should have been a larger diameter to register on the previously machined surface instead of clamping down on the cast spokes.
The RPM was the same what you meant to say was the surface cutting speed was too fast and needed slowing down.
Thanks Keith very informative as always. I would like to add a DRO to my Enco 8 x 36 vertical mill and 12 x 36 gear head lathe. As they are strictly manual currently. Any recommendations or sponsors you have had a positive experience with would be great. Best wishes always
Call me dumb, but i only just realised that when you use an original part as the pattern to cast a new one, by the time you clean it up it will of course be smaller than the original.
Because it shrinks when it comes out of the mold it is smaller before any machining. If the size was critical he would have made a larger pattern. I think it shrinks from molten size to cool size by about 5%. I won't call you dumb, these are things you learn from being a machinist and working in a foundry.
I did notice that when you measured the hub thickness you said it was 0.950" but when you were setting your DRO you input 0.9375" were the castings too thin for you to get the original thickness?
I thought Clark added a bit to the casting to account for shrinkage.
This guy taught me about babbitt bearings. I'll never forget that....lol it's tin and lead right?😧
pretty fancy golf cart....
When casting wheels. Do you wind tape around the original to take up for shrinkage or do you powder coat the part since you have a heat treating oven that might be used to set the powder coating . Build it up by dipping in a clay slurry multiple times. Or a ceramic glaze. Even using a hot glue gun to build up surfaces or missing areas. One could even get creative and add more draft to the part.
Great fixture build! I would have been tempted to clean up the outer exterior of the center boss for appearance sake, but knowing it’s a antique reproduction part, what kind of original finish would have been appropriate on a mass produced cast iron wheel? Prolly just what you did.
Why couldn't Clark dip them in a few coats of wax or something similar so they are slightly larger to accommodate for shrinkage?
Sand would probably stick to much to wax.
Going to be more towards epoxy and sanding it.
Looks like you could've used the threaded holes for the bolts that hold the chuck jaws for clamping the parts, instead of making that improvised plate.
Keith has said he needs "improvised plate" making practice. I believe that is why he chose to do what he did.
👏
Wheely nice... 🙂
Hi: What happened to the steam stoker engine project?? I liked that one!
If you think about it you dident have to build a jig fixture it can be all done in the Chuck .
Sorry to point out that when you started turning the OD of the wheels, the thrust moved the wheel over, causing the centre hole to run out. Either a running centre, or a closer fitting and longer fixture would have prevented that. In this case of course, it won't matter.
The original spec was to build these to operate at a maximum 60 mph. I believe a revision delta was issued and that spec was revised to a maximum of "pulling".
Probably way more to dimension than they originally were.
Wow with all the accuracy how do you get a wobble cart at the grocery store??
Do you know that the other experts maybe are, X is the unknown factor and a spurt is a drip under pressure
And at the end, not a word about, nor even a sideways glance at, those funky granite … can they even be called surface plates?
He didn’t say he trued up the rim of the wheel, just that he “cleaned” up the edge.
GREAT JOB, GREAT VIDEO...PET THE CATS AN DOGS...
A job for an expanding collet
Anyone else wonder why he didn’t use an arbor/ expanding mandrel?
Is zoom three an editing glitch 🙂
why didnt you just use a normal 0-1" micrometer?
Hi Keith, would it be possible to get an insect picture with the DRO showing? It would be great to see it as you are working with it.
"insect" pictures are hard to control and I don't think we want them all over the internet.
@@paulcopeland9035 stinking autocorrect!! ...inset...
Working with cast material can be a challenge. Having more material to work with would have definitely helped. I was surprised to see that you used a three jaw chuck. Would a four jaw chuck have provided greater accuracy?
4 jaw is used mostly for odd shapes
@@lilo2469 a casting is an odd shape! Not concentric!
Look out- here I come again- no need for that complicated fixture.
1. Face outer hub and center boss to 1/2" depth- mark hub and chuck jaw with sharpie
2. Reverse hub and clamp in same location -face inner hub to thickness ( turned outer hub face against the chuck jaw keeps inner hub parallel)
3. Drill to 11/16"
4. Use 11/16 bolt or threaded rod with nut on each side as arbor to turn OD. Could also use expanding mandrel or collet.
AAARGH- I'm an engineer and you will lose precision- Naaah- it's an old rolling cart with cast iron wheels, not aircraft landing gear.
If you watch to criticize watch something else or post your own shit
What happened to the Diresta bandsaw restoration project? is it done?
No
I don't no why you didn't thread the arbor and fit a nut to hold the wheel rather tag go to all that trouble with fixture.
Keep wondering. How he approached the project was his decision and it worked fine. Lathe work is fun!! Maybe that had something to do with it.
Then how would he face the hub, with the nut against it?
Where is the diresta bandsaw?
In the shop.
Bridgeport faster for 2nd step imo
"faster" has no meaning in this video.
a lot of work to copy a faceplate and still not running true ?
Undercut the shoulder
They screwed up using an original as the template as its has had 100 years or more of wear and tear done to it and once you machine the surfaces everything will be out of spec.
Normally when someone brings in an original part for casting atleast where I used to work in my teens, they used clay to build up any surfaces that would need to be machined after casting before building the mold.
* Edit * Should've know Keith would've caught that too. LOL
Awful work. When you true a cast wheel you do it on the basis of the hub, not the rim. Look at some of the holes you drilled in the hubs. They are visibly off-centre, and look like crap.
Yes, I noticed that. There were other things too.
Well, then the outside diameter would run out instead. And it didn’t look like there was that much meat on the ”rim” to be able to safely turn the OD true.
@@Aerothompa By the time he trued the rim, the axle hole was running out anyway. Have a look. The fixture was too sloppy.
Your positive attitude is uplifting to all of us.
The outside edge of the finished rims were true to the center because of the fitting he machined. The appearance of the rimward surface of the hub is non-critical.