I have read about an elderly man in NS who spent a lifetime developing, improving roses. Read about him in local paper or gardenclub news. Such dedication for the love of roses.
I’ve only ever propagated roses for personal use and would be still leery about selling them regardless if they are past their patent or not. Great info! Thank you!
Sincere Thanks for your integrity and reliable information so people can make informed choices. So important in this world. Thank you again. God bless you and your family and your business. From Gold Coast Queensland Australia
Love the phrase 'a confidence builder' plant! I appreciate that you looked at not only the patent expiry, but also availability and ease of propagating. It's so disappointing when you see a plant recommended that you really, really want but then can't seem to find it anywhere.
The 20 year rule is nice to know. Means all my mom’s 50+ year old’s are fine. We’ve got 8 varieties, in a wide color spectrum, that still grow vigorously and so far, in 6 months of trying, 4 of them have been easy to propagate just straight into soil.
Good explanation about the IP and propagation rights. I've never thought about IP in the aspect of purely physical and how plants can eventually become public domain.
Thank you Jason for a very entertaining and interesting video. I had no idea that there were so many varieties of roses! Thanks for sharing your expertise with us.
Jason I found some of those you mentioned. Sadly most are out of stock but I will keep an eye out for them. I learn so much from your channel and always look forward to seeing new vids.
This is so great! Video ideas: 1. roses for flower farmers (good cut flowers and/or desirable to florists); 2. rose breeding/hybridization (have you ever experimented with this? Would be so cool to learn about this like the dahlia breeders)
Very useful video Jason.👍 Yes, the propagation police are out there, but usually an over-eager under-informed "expert" who thinks they know more than they actually do.🙄 Your perspective is helpful for the individuals and small growers wanting to know if it's OK to propagate their plants. The whole process can get quite involved, but having a general understanding is a huge benefit to the average grower, especially those wanting to try their hand at reproducing their prized plants.👌 I remember the first time I did cuttings and grafts, the feeling of doing something wrong bothered me until I began to understand the rules of propagation and the general patent rules process. Of course anyone planning to mass produce any plants definitely needs to be much more thorough about the rules regarding those specific plants, but the available information now makes it so much easier than in years past.🤙
@@FraserValleyRoseFarm We have state sanctioned committees here in Hawaii, some are actually helpful, but most are overbearing, self-grandizing blowhards that are more of a nuisance than the plants they complain about. Anyone who grows plants quickly learns and realizes that some are good and others can become a problem. The reason growers like yourself and most others have education programs of some kind are to help the community be a part of growing and problem solving.
I find you a very none assuming man . Good talks on roses and excellent clear advise. Love your videos thank you .Sir Kevin Parr Bt about to start a rose breeding unit in my 5 acres of own build gardens .Edwardian English art and craft garden rooms in Europe now
Jason thank you for all your videos. I would like to know if you sell cuttings or plants for zone 7b? Thank you again for educating us and your videos.
Thanks David. We sell plants across a wide range of zone hardiness, but only within Canada (during shipping season) and then locally (BC, Fraser Valley) the rest of the retail season)
My fav is Blaze Rose. a wonderful repeat, stunning bright red, scentless, thorny climber. hardy to fault . i dug it out, as it was so overgrown, my fault, and soon regretted it. neighbors were upset with me pulling it out. 2 years later, I. spotted her again trying to ,regrow from a stray root that was left in tact in the ground. Blaze is now 2 inches tall and 3 inches wide. I'd like to help it along to re-establish itself. is this possible & what steps do I take this late hour of the August season? please help if you are able. Best regards. Spokane. Washington
I'd probably give it a little bit of fertilizer to help it along at this point. If you have rabbits or deer that could nibble down the fresh shoots, you could consider a bit of a wire cage around it just to protect it while it's small. I hope it's the scion stock and not a rootstock variety coming up.
It's one of my upcoming topics. Sadly, repellants aren't effective for long, and the only sure fire way to protect plants that deer like to munch on is to exclude them. This can be at the perimeter (with tall fences and people who close gates) or at plant level (with wire cages or the such to let small plants size up a bit so they're not actually killed by feeding damage).
I have few rose cuttings planted in the ground and it is successful, I do small scale plant sale like herbs , vegetable plants, perennials. My question is can I sell the rose cutting which I got success and rooted nicely? Few customer asked me rose cuttings/ rooted plants, I can dig and put rooted plants in small pot, but can I sell them? I bought bare root and potted roses mostly from big basket stores ,your answer is really appreciable,
There really isn't a lot in the way of policing, particularly at a smaller scale, but the proper legal answer is: make sure that the rose you're propagating from is unpatented or past the patent period.
You are looking great. Looks like you lost a bit of weight? I love the orange and peach ones. Only have pink and white David Austin roses in my small suburban garden. So many roses, so little space, sigh!
Jason, just curious do you sell anything to get rid of rose slugs/ leaf hoppers? Also, is your farm still open? (Or what would you recommend that is bee friendly?)
We don't sell any pesticides. Insecticidal soap might even do the trick. And yes, we're still open Fridays and Saturdays until we run out of nice weather
As an Orchid enthusiast and grower for many years, although I never have been a seller, I hadn't heard of plant patents before (other than Roundup Ready crops). It very much surprised me, and I most certainly abhor and dislike the idea, even if I understand the reasons. I placed a search for orchid patents and it turned nothing out. Well, almost nothing. The mass produced Phalaenopsis have a few patents issued. I'm here, in deep reflection, trying to figure out why!! It doesn't have anything to do with how hard, how long and how much you have to invest. Orchids are even harder to propagate by seeds, it is expensive and will often take a 7 - 10 year period for the first results. And then separating the hits from the misses is just as hard, and cloning is also a long term endeavor... I believe the whole thing is much more related to large scale sales, specially the cut-flower market... What's your take on this?
Thanks - it seems to vary a lot by the intended use and the scale of marketing. Roses have traditionally been patented to a large degree, as are many shrubs and perennials - but annuals seems to have such a short lifespan on the market that the big players are skipping the patent process to some degree. I don't know the ins and outs of the cut flower market - and yes, it always puzzled me a bit (from the outside) that it doesn't seem to be much of a thing in orchids. Are a lot of orchids hybridized and marketed by small-scale specialist breeders? Roses are generally marketed by much larger organizations.
@@FraserValleyRoseFarm I think it may have to do with the different biological cycle of roses and orchids, in the face of the marketing cycles! A good, clone worthy rose, ready to respond to the latest fads and market preferences as a cut flower commodity, is a lot of work to come by. But then quickly propagating and/or grafting it is fairly easy. Not the same with Orchids. They are painstakingly slow growers. If you buy an outstanding seedling, you may flood the market with clones, but it is going to take another decade before the plants are ready to be marketed. By then, the first breeder has already moved on to the next "big thing"
That makes a lot of sense actually. The marketing/growing cycle of an annual is too short to make the 20 patent protection worthwhile, and the marketing/growing cycle of orchids may just be too long!
Great info as always! I recently came across some French roses trademarked as Sophie Rochas with beautiful ruffled edge petals, do French bred roses ever come to Canada or the US? Lately, ruffle roses seems to be all the rage there, wish I could get one 😩
As far as I know, Paul Zimmerman works with some North American nurseries to bring in Delbard roses. He lists a few nurseries on his site: paulzimmermanroses.com/resources/delbard-garden-roses/
Thanks for the tips, I have taken cuttings from Ghislaine de Feligonde, 1 July. Is it ok to bring them in, in a bright window now in the winter.. don't have a greenhouse..
Hey Jason, I have a question about trade names! I just transplanted a new (to me) rose “Falstaff”. I was researching it on HMF, and I see that it was patented in the US in 2002. With patents lasting 20 years, and this year being 2022, that means next year I can propagate (and sell) this rose, lucky me! On HMF it notes the registration name as AUSverse. I understand that the first part is a reference to the browser, David Austin. However, I’m wondering, am I obligated to sell it under “AUSverse”? Can I arbitrarily name it something else? Can I reference the exhibition name/original trademark without selling it “as” that? I appreciate your insight.
David Austin probably Trademarked the name Falstaff, so AUSverse is a safer bet. It sort of depends on how big a nursery you have, where you sell, etc. if you are in the US, many of the Etsy, ebay, fb marketplace, Offer-up are not so concerned with trademark names being used on out of patent plants.
That's just the problem, isn't it? The breeder registers it under a nonsense denomination, and then markets and exhibits under Falstaff. So you're left with bad options: 1) use the (trademarked) exhibition name, and accept the (admittedly small) risk that you'll get a threat letter from DAR, 2) rename it yourself ('Fastolf' would do) - but I think muddying the waters with made-up alternate trade names does a disservice to the community TBH, or 3) use the nonsense denomination 'AUSverse' in all your marketing materials, but connect the dots to the exhibition name in person with your customer.
@@FraserValleyRoseFarm Yes, the complicated side of the rose world. This is exactly the reason I lost interest so many years ago. Now, if someone wants to enjoy whatever roses I decide to grow and possibly propagate I will simply tell them the varieties they are and share them. Perhaps I will charge a small fee to pay for the time and materials, but I won't be trying to make a profit. I just want to enjoy the plants I have and maybe see some community interest develop. I will leave the real rose breeding to folks like you Jason.😉🤙
@@FraserValleyRoseFarm silly side note from a Shakespearean- Falstaff the character was originally written to be named 'Oldcastle' - an actual historical figure. But the descendants of the original Oldcastle complained and forced Shakespeare to change the name to Falstaff. So if you re-name the rose Oldcastle you would tickle the funny bone of all of the Shakespeare nerds (both of us) who grow roses.
No, we're in Canada - but the laws are similar. An older heirloom rose shouldn't have any patent on it, but the markings from suppliers can definitely confuse the issue.
In the late 1940s Mr. Robert Pyle, proprietor of Conrad & Pyle rose wholesale company flew to Paris, where he rented an automobile and drove to the South of France. There he hand delivered a check for the royalties from American sales of the famous 'Peace' rose to its' breeder, his good friend M. Francois Meiland. 'Peace' had graced the tables of delegates at the convention which drew up the United Nations charter; it was all the rage in the US and every American rose grower had to have one. The amount was large enough to enable M. Meiland to restart his rose nursery which had had to be closed during WWII. That story illustrates why patenting, the 20 year PVP, NOT so-called utility patents, is important. As a rose buyer, I would be extremely reluctant to do business with a nursery which flouted patent laws, just as I avoid buying from nurseries which habitually send out mislabeled plants.
Thanks for adding this Margaret. The 20 years of patent protection seems like a decent compromise between the rights of the breeder to profit from their own work and the benefit to gardeners in having these roses (eventually) in the public domain. I've run into purists and idealogues on either side who think either the breeder or the public should have all the rights, and the other side none - and they don't seem to think through the consequences. 20 years might not be the "perfect" length, but it's in the ballpark.
No, once it gets going it's fairly vigorous. But just like many other climbers, it will sometimes spend its energy in the first year (or even two sometimes) building a good root system and framework of stems.
so interestingly enough, pat protection for plants only protect the plants from a-sex propagation ( cuttings), so in that sense you cant own nature as some might say as you can still make them via normally pollination if you knew what or had access to the parent plants that is. seems like a good middle ground imo
Good point: a plant patent of this sort doesn't mean the breeder owns the genes if used as a parent, so I think your description of this as a good middle ground is apt. I've seen that Star Roses recently has claimed a different kind of patent on Petite Knock Out that actually prevents people from using it as a parent. Not cool, IMO. The law should reflect a reasonable compromise between the rights of breeders to profit from their work and the rights of the gardening community that supports the trade.
2020 i was fuming about not able to let some of my vege flower so i can have seeds. Just a few weeks ago i watched a short documentary series about hybrid china roses. The amount of researches, records, trials takes decades, i must say 20 years of exclusive period is quite short. Souvenior del Malmaison and Sally Holmes are available in Malaysia. I have eyes set on the former. Stunning looking flower.
In the same way one can copy a DVD so long as you're not selling them. No, you don't obtain the right to propagate or pirate intellectual property just because you're not selling, but since all the enforcement is aimed at commercial growers, it's almost the same difference.
Thanks Tracy, and as mentioned in the video - it's the patent that protects the right to propagate, but trademark is used to restrict the marketing name of the plant (inappropriately, in my opinion, and the courts have agreed in at least one case where it was tested)
I am going to add, when you think of propagating patent plants remember we need our rose breeders to have the money to keep it up! We also want to save those old favorites, that breeders don't make money off anymore.
There are a few newer cultivars (I'm thinking the "Pavement" series) that might still be in the 20 years since introduction. Most everything else, including definitely the seed-grown species rugosas are fair game for sure
Hi Peter. They have their own distribution strategies, often licensing trusted partner growers to propagate and sell young plants and report/remit royalties as agreed. Most small growers like me source their patented roses through partner growers like these. For instance: Kordes licenses their new releases through Ball/Star Roses in North America, and I buy my young Kordes roses from a Ball partner, Greenheart.
really, how are they going to police you propagating roses in your back yard for your own personal use?? They can't. Those legal restrictions are just to stop commercial selling of the restricted roses
Lol. Not every video will appeal to every viewer, so I never worry about pleasing everyone. A quick jump up to around 25k views was a nice validation that some folks were looking for some info on out-of-patent roses, but by all means skip. That's why you have the controls. Meanwhile if I every get really into wine tasting, I hope you'll be around to make your specialty videos on related topics.
Thanks James. I knew there'd be varying opinions on it - and funny enough, I've ended up to think the reverse: I see some ethical foundation for rewarding individuals for their creative work (for some reasonable fixed duration), but think the idea of holding the commonly used name at ransom from the gardening community to be unjustifiable.
@@FraserValleyRoseFarm I can appreciate the fact that someone would want to have a patent or have control of the rights of their personal and or company names on a product they have "made" and is sold to the public so as to protect their name and trademark from infringement. I can't simply build a car and put a Ford emblem on it and sell it as a "Ford" and not expect legal repercussions (and rightly so). I concede that I used the term "absurd" quite loosely. There IS a reality in the work involved in the breeding of plants and animals, but, I hold fast to my statement that legal ownership of rights do not go beyond the limits of Name,Trademark,or design, which I find hard to reconcile with the phylogenetic development of a plant. I'm not a lawyer, nor am I "fluent" in all the aspects of law, but I do consider myself an all-around commonsense based man and retaining patent rights on biological properties is not a reasonable concept to me. The process or design of reaching the desired outcome in biology has a right to be "patented" but the central substance, the product, does not. Even if the outcome is repeatable. There are too many variables involved (to me) to place hard and fast absolutes in regards to biological organisms to be able to say "I am the maker of this." I apologize for the long,but hopefully coherent, reply and I hope your business and work prospers, my friend, roses are my favorite flowers!
Hi James. There are no hard feelings for an honest disagreement on my part, and since neither of us are lawyers we're actually wresting with a question of "what ought to be?" (ethically) rather than "what is the law?". I'll set aside the issue of trademarked names, because I don't really think these companies are using trademarks appropriately anyway. But when it comes to the breeders rights to own their work, it's not really so different than an author, musician or any other artist. No, an author didn't invent the words or language they use (with maybe Tolkien excepted), but they can be strung together in innumerable combinations - and when done well, the work of an author requires intentionality. A painter or sculptor doesn't create the physical properties of their materials. This colors, textures and forms were beautiful already on someone else's canvas and in nature itself. A plant breeder uses his or her creativity in a different medium is all. The work is not easy, nor is the result assured except through perseverance. To your point of a breeder not being able to say "I am the maker of this", it's a fair point, but if you want to drill it down, you'd have to say the same for *every* work of art I've already mentioned, since every other artist is also working with cultural or physical media that they've derived from outside themselves and don't have complete control over. But on to the ethical (and practical) core of the issue so far as I'm concerned: laws should be written to be fair and to strike a pragmatic balance between the rights of individuals. As between the breeder of the plant, who put significant work into the creation of a variety, and someone who didn't, who should have rights over that plant? Who should be able to profit from that work? Is it fair that a 3rd party could make many copies (or in this case, multiply many parts of the original) and then sell those copies for their own profit without any financial consideration to the person who did the creative work? If there were no protection (at least for a reasonable duration) of these rights, and thus no practical way to financially compensate innovations in plant breeding, what would be the incentive to do the work? Should it all just be government funded as a "public good" then? And then who decides what breeding efforts are worthwhile and should be supported? A bureaucracy? I mean, I don't love everything about private ownership, inheritance and intellectual property law, but it's seems to offer more freedom, fairness and dignity for individuals than the alternatives.
@@FraserValleyRoseFarm well said sir. I also hold no ill feelings, but rather enjoy and appreciate civilized discussions. I am no communist or marxist and believe we will all get our rewards when we give account of the lives we've led to our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ from whom ALL things were created and given. Again, my friend, I hope your work and business is fruitful and prosperous. Have a blessed day!
I have read about an elderly man in NS who spent a lifetime developing, improving roses. Read about him in local paper or gardenclub news. Such dedication for the love of roses.
I’ve only ever propagated roses for personal use and would be still leery about selling them regardless if they are past their patent or not.
Great info! Thank you!
I love how you give us a clear list and pictures when you don’t have the rose currently in bloom. It makes it so easy to understand!
Sincere Thanks for your integrity and reliable information so people can make informed choices. So important in this world.
Thank you again.
God bless you and your family and your business.
From
Gold Coast
Queensland
Australia
Love the phrase 'a confidence builder' plant! I appreciate that you looked at not only the patent expiry, but also availability and ease of propagating. It's so disappointing when you see a plant recommended that you really, really want but then can't seem to find it anywhere.
Thanks for the feedback!
The 20 year rule is nice to know. Means all my mom’s 50+ year old’s are fine. We’ve got 8 varieties, in a wide color spectrum, that still grow vigorously and so far, in 6 months of trying, 4 of them have been easy to propagate just straight into soil.
Very nice! Sometimes the simplest methods are best
I beautiful roses colors, I have no problem with propagate any plant not just roses unless the plant
has as a stamp of Copyright😊
Good explanation about the IP and propagation rights. I've never thought about IP in the aspect of purely physical and how plants can eventually become public domain.
Thank you Jason for a very entertaining and interesting video. I had no idea that there were so many varieties of roses! Thanks for sharing your expertise with us.
Jason I found some of those you mentioned. Sadly most are out of stock but I will keep an eye out for them. I learn so much from your channel and always look forward to seeing new vids.
Thanks Dennis
I've been searching forever for a video which answers this! Went to a few nurseries in Cape Town and nobody knew😂. Thank you sir!!
You're so welcome! Thanks for watching
This is so great! Video ideas: 1. roses for flower farmers (good cut flowers and/or desirable to florists); 2. rose breeding/hybridization (have you ever experimented with this? Would be so cool to learn about this like the dahlia breeders)
Very useful video Jason.👍
Yes, the propagation police are out there, but usually an over-eager under-informed "expert" who thinks they know more than they actually do.🙄
Your perspective is helpful for the individuals and small growers wanting to know if it's OK to propagate their plants.
The whole process can get quite involved, but having a general understanding is a huge benefit to the average grower, especially those wanting to try their hand at reproducing their prized plants.👌
I remember the first time I did cuttings and grafts, the feeling of doing something wrong bothered me until I began to understand the rules of propagation and the general patent rules process.
Of course anyone planning to mass produce any plants definitely needs to be much more thorough about the rules regarding those specific plants, but the available information now makes it so much easier than in years past.🤙
The "volunteer" plant police. They also have lots to say about non-native species!
@@FraserValleyRoseFarm
We have state sanctioned committees here in Hawaii, some are actually helpful, but most are overbearing, self-grandizing blowhards that are more of a nuisance than the plants they complain about.
Anyone who grows plants quickly learns and realizes that some are good and others can become a problem.
The reason growers like yourself and most others have education programs of some kind are to help the community be a part of growing and problem solving.
I'm unto orchids but wow im loving roses!
So thats why there are beatiful roses on the marked with no name? Thank you for useful information.
Either that or just growers who don't care to make the effort.
I find you a very none assuming man . Good talks on roses and excellent clear advise. Love your videos thank you .Sir Kevin Parr Bt about to start a rose breeding unit in my 5 acres of own build gardens .Edwardian English art and craft garden rooms in Europe now
Jason thank you for all your videos. I would like to know if you sell cuttings or plants for zone 7b?
Thank you again for educating us and your videos.
Thanks David. We sell plants across a wide range of zone hardiness, but only within Canada (during shipping season) and then locally (BC, Fraser Valley) the rest of the retail season)
My fav is Blaze Rose.
a wonderful repeat, stunning bright red, scentless, thorny climber. hardy to fault .
i dug it out, as it was so overgrown, my fault, and soon regretted it.
neighbors were upset with me pulling it out.
2 years later, I. spotted her again trying to ,regrow from a stray root that was left in tact in the ground.
Blaze is now 2 inches tall and 3 inches wide.
I'd like to help it along to re-establish itself.
is this possible & what steps do I take this late hour of the August season?
please help if you are able.
Best regards.
Spokane. Washington
I'd probably give it a little bit of fertilizer to help it along at this point. If you have rabbits or deer that could nibble down the fresh shoots, you could consider a bit of a wire cage around it just to protect it while it's small. I hope it's the scion stock and not a rootstock variety coming up.
Very interesting topic. Thanks for sharing!
I love your videos! Thank you for sharing your knowledge.
Have you watched episode 040 of Flock Fingerlakes? That guy really knows his roses too. The history of some of them fascinate me
Yes, I think that was Leon Ginenthal (Der Rosenmeister) - great guy.
Very amazing Jason, wonderful video.👍
Deer have been eating my roses this summer - new development in Coquitlam- any suggestions? Much appreciated
It's one of my upcoming topics. Sadly, repellants aren't effective for long, and the only sure fire way to protect plants that deer like to munch on is to exclude them. This can be at the perimeter (with tall fences and people who close gates) or at plant level (with wire cages or the such to let small plants size up a bit so they're not actually killed by feeding damage).
I have few rose cuttings planted in the ground and it is successful, I do small scale plant sale like herbs , vegetable plants, perennials. My question is can I sell the rose cutting which I got success and rooted nicely? Few customer asked me rose cuttings/ rooted plants, I can dig and put rooted plants in small pot, but can I sell them? I bought bare root and potted roses mostly from big basket stores ,your answer is really appreciable,
There really isn't a lot in the way of policing, particularly at a smaller scale, but the proper legal answer is: make sure that the rose you're propagating from is unpatented or past the patent period.
You are looking great. Looks like you lost a bit of weight?
I love the orange and peach ones. Only have pink and white David Austin roses in my small suburban garden. So many roses, so little space, sigh!
Thanks Lisbet. I'm also a sucker for orange, apricot and coral colors!
Interesting stuff. I’m unaffected but good to know.
Jason, just curious do you sell anything to get rid of rose slugs/ leaf hoppers? Also, is your farm still open? (Or what would you recommend that is bee friendly?)
We don't sell any pesticides. Insecticidal soap might even do the trick. And yes, we're still open Fridays and Saturdays until we run out of nice weather
As an Orchid enthusiast and grower for many years, although I never have been a seller, I hadn't heard of plant patents before (other than Roundup Ready crops). It very much surprised me, and I most certainly abhor and dislike the idea, even if I understand the reasons. I placed a search for orchid patents and it turned nothing out. Well, almost nothing. The mass produced Phalaenopsis have a few patents issued. I'm here, in deep reflection, trying to figure out why!! It doesn't have anything to do with how hard, how long and how much you have to invest. Orchids are even harder to propagate by seeds, it is expensive and will often take a 7 - 10 year period for the first results. And then separating the hits from the misses is just as hard, and cloning is also a long term endeavor... I believe the whole thing is much more related to large scale sales, specially the cut-flower market... What's your take on this?
Thanks - it seems to vary a lot by the intended use and the scale of marketing. Roses have traditionally been patented to a large degree, as are many shrubs and perennials - but annuals seems to have such a short lifespan on the market that the big players are skipping the patent process to some degree. I don't know the ins and outs of the cut flower market - and yes, it always puzzled me a bit (from the outside) that it doesn't seem to be much of a thing in orchids. Are a lot of orchids hybridized and marketed by small-scale specialist breeders? Roses are generally marketed by much larger organizations.
@@FraserValleyRoseFarm I think it may have to do with the different biological cycle of roses and orchids, in the face of the marketing cycles! A good, clone worthy rose, ready to respond to the latest fads and market preferences as a cut flower commodity, is a lot of work to come by. But then quickly propagating and/or grafting it is fairly easy. Not the same with Orchids. They are painstakingly slow growers. If you buy an outstanding seedling, you may flood the market with clones, but it is going to take another decade before the plants are ready to be marketed. By then, the first breeder has already moved on to the next "big thing"
That makes a lot of sense actually. The marketing/growing cycle of an annual is too short to make the 20 patent protection worthwhile, and the marketing/growing cycle of orchids may just be too long!
Great info as always! I recently came across some French roses trademarked as Sophie Rochas with beautiful ruffled edge petals, do French bred roses ever come to Canada or the US? Lately, ruffle roses seems to be all the rage there, wish I could get one 😩
As far as I know, Paul Zimmerman works with some North American nurseries to bring in Delbard roses. He lists a few nurseries on his site: paulzimmermanroses.com/resources/delbard-garden-roses/
@@FraserValleyRoseFarm thank you!
Hopefully Jason will be able to breed a new rose and name it Fraser Valley Rose ☺️
But some of them take a long time to start rooting, rooting method is very simple in rainy season.
Hi there, do you use a rootstock at all when propagating? I’m taking cuttings from my mum’s garden and was just going to try root the cutting as is
All of these varieties I've rooted without the use of grafting and they've done well.
always helpful jason.. oh jah!
Jason, try Avon rose! It's all rounder winner.
Thanks. I'll be on the lookout for it.
Thanks for the tips, I have taken cuttings from Ghislaine de Feligonde, 1 July. Is it ok to bring them in, in a bright window now in the winter.. don't have a greenhouse..
Yes, a bright window can work - I prefer a cooler area like a garage or mud room.
We are going through a drought and extreme heat. Can you make a video on that?
I'll put it on the list. Thanks Nancy
Hey Jason, I have a question about trade names! I just transplanted a new (to me) rose “Falstaff”. I was researching it on HMF, and I see that it was patented in the US in 2002. With patents lasting 20 years, and this year being 2022, that means next year I can propagate (and sell) this rose, lucky me! On HMF it notes the registration name as AUSverse. I understand that the first part is a reference to the browser, David Austin. However, I’m wondering, am I obligated to sell it under “AUSverse”? Can I arbitrarily name it something else? Can I reference the exhibition name/original trademark without selling it “as” that? I appreciate your insight.
Oops, breeder, not browser
David Austin probably Trademarked the name Falstaff, so AUSverse is a safer bet. It sort of depends on how big a nursery you have, where you sell, etc. if you are in the US, many of the Etsy, ebay, fb marketplace, Offer-up are not so concerned with trademark names being used on out of patent plants.
That's just the problem, isn't it? The breeder registers it under a nonsense denomination, and then markets and exhibits under Falstaff. So you're left with bad options: 1) use the (trademarked) exhibition name, and accept the (admittedly small) risk that you'll get a threat letter from DAR, 2) rename it yourself ('Fastolf' would do) - but I think muddying the waters with made-up alternate trade names does a disservice to the community TBH, or 3) use the nonsense denomination 'AUSverse' in all your marketing materials, but connect the dots to the exhibition name in person with your customer.
@@FraserValleyRoseFarm
Yes, the complicated side of the rose world.
This is exactly the reason I lost interest so many years ago.
Now, if someone wants to enjoy whatever roses I decide to grow and possibly propagate I will simply tell them the varieties they are and share them. Perhaps I will charge a small fee to pay for the time and materials, but I won't be trying to make a profit.
I just want to enjoy the plants I have and maybe see some community interest develop.
I will leave the real rose breeding to folks like you Jason.😉🤙
@@FraserValleyRoseFarm silly side note from a Shakespearean- Falstaff the character was originally written to be named 'Oldcastle' - an actual historical figure. But the descendants of the original Oldcastle complained and forced Shakespeare to change the name to Falstaff. So if you re-name the rose Oldcastle you would tickle the funny bone of all of the Shakespeare nerds (both of us) who grow roses.
Can heirloom plants be patented? I've seen what look like trademark symbols on some. Are you in the U.S.?
No, we're in Canada - but the laws are similar. An older heirloom rose shouldn't have any patent on it, but the markings from suppliers can definitely confuse the issue.
In the late 1940s Mr. Robert Pyle, proprietor of Conrad & Pyle rose wholesale company flew to Paris, where he rented an automobile and drove to the South of France. There he hand delivered a check for the royalties from American sales of the famous 'Peace' rose to its' breeder, his good friend M. Francois Meiland. 'Peace' had graced the tables of delegates at the convention which drew up the United Nations charter; it was all the rage in the US and every American rose grower had to have one. The amount was large enough to enable M. Meiland to restart his rose nursery which had had to be closed during WWII. That story illustrates why patenting, the 20 year PVP, NOT so-called utility patents, is important.
As a rose buyer, I would be extremely reluctant to do business with a nursery which flouted patent laws, just as I avoid buying from nurseries which habitually send out mislabeled plants.
Thanks for adding this Margaret. The 20 years of patent protection seems like a decent compromise between the rights of the breeder to profit from their own work and the benefit to gardeners in having these roses (eventually) in the public domain. I've run into purists and idealogues on either side who think either the breeder or the public should have all the rights, and the other side none - and they don't seem to think through the consequences. 20 years might not be the "perfect" length, but it's in the ballpark.
Thank you Jason. May I ask what zone your in?🌺💚🙃
Hi Judy. I'm in zone 8
I planted an Eden climbing rose this spring that has hardly grown at all. Is this a slow growing rose?
No, once it gets going it's fairly vigorous. But just like many other climbers, it will sometimes spend its energy in the first year (or even two sometimes) building a good root system and framework of stems.
so interestingly enough, pat protection for plants only protect the plants from a-sex propagation ( cuttings), so in that sense you cant own nature as some might say as you can still make them via normally pollination if you knew what or had access to the parent plants that is. seems like a good middle ground imo
Good point: a plant patent of this sort doesn't mean the breeder owns the genes if used as a parent, so I think your description of this as a good middle ground is apt. I've seen that Star Roses recently has claimed a different kind of patent on Petite Knock Out that actually prevents people from using it as a parent. Not cool, IMO. The law should reflect a reasonable compromise between the rights of breeders to profit from their work and the rights of the gardening community that supports the trade.
Well explained. Thank you. 11.7.24
Thanks
Are Mr Lincoln roses still under patent?
No. Long out of patent
@@FraserValleyRoseFarm Thank you,I understand knockouts will out of patent next year.
You will be invited soon on my land lol
Quantos anos para a patente em Europa, (Portugal) 10 ou 20 anos. Obrigado
As far as I know it's 20 years in Europe as well
2020 i was fuming about not able to let some of my vege flower so i can have seeds. Just a few weeks ago i watched a short documentary series about hybrid china roses. The amount of researches, records, trials takes decades, i must say 20 years of exclusive period is quite short.
Souvenior del Malmaison and Sally Holmes are available in Malaysia. I have eyes set on the former. Stunning looking flower.
Excellent choice!
I was under assumption that one can prop patented plants as long as you're not selling them.
In the same way one can copy a DVD so long as you're not selling them. No, you don't obtain the right to propagate or pirate intellectual property just because you're not selling, but since all the enforcement is aimed at commercial growers, it's almost the same difference.
Patent and trademark provides different protection. Patent is only 20 years, but trademark could last forever.
Thanks Tracy, and as mentioned in the video - it's the patent that protects the right to propagate, but trademark is used to restrict the marketing name of the plant (inappropriately, in my opinion, and the courts have agreed in at least one case where it was tested)
WHERE ARE YOU PHOTOGRAPHING FROM ?
- BEAUTIFUL MOUNTAIN BEHIND .. !!!
About an hour east of Vancouver BC in the mid Fraser Valley (Nicomen Island)
I am going to add, when you think of propagating patent plants remember we need our rose breeders to have the money to keep it up! We also want to save those old favorites, that breeders don't make money off anymore.
Agreed. It can't be one or the other. For a healthy rose hobby, we need to support garden-worthy new roses and old alike.
What about Rosa Rugosa?
There are a few newer cultivars (I'm thinking the "Pavement" series) that might still be in the 20 years since introduction. Most everything else, including definitely the seed-grown species rugosas are fair game for sure
How is remuneration handled for those roses that nurseries sell which are still under plant patent?
Hi Peter. They have their own distribution strategies, often licensing trusted partner growers to propagate and sell young plants and report/remit royalties as agreed. Most small growers like me source their patented roses through partner growers like these. For instance: Kordes licenses their new releases through Ball/Star Roses in North America, and I buy my young Kordes roses from a Ball partner, Greenheart.
really, how are they going to police you propagating roses in your back yard for your own personal use?? They can't. Those legal restrictions are just to stop commercial selling of the restricted roses
lmao the propagation police
First to like
Not to be rude or anything but do you really think the average person really cares (worries) about getting in trouble over selling roses :)
Lol. Not every video will appeal to every viewer, so I never worry about pleasing everyone. A quick jump up to around 25k views was a nice validation that some folks were looking for some info on out-of-patent roses, but by all means skip. That's why you have the controls. Meanwhile if I every get really into wine tasting, I hope you'll be around to make your specialty videos on related topics.
An absolutely absurd concept. I can appreciate the patent on a name but anything beyond that is ridiculous.
Thanks James. I knew there'd be varying opinions on it - and funny enough, I've ended up to think the reverse: I see some ethical foundation for rewarding individuals for their creative work (for some reasonable fixed duration), but think the idea of holding the commonly used name at ransom from the gardening community to be unjustifiable.
@@FraserValleyRoseFarm I can appreciate the fact that someone would want to have a patent or have control of the rights of their personal and or company names on a product they have "made" and is sold to the public so as to protect their name and trademark from infringement. I can't simply build a car and put a Ford emblem on it and sell it as a "Ford" and not expect legal repercussions (and rightly so). I concede that I used the term "absurd" quite loosely. There IS a reality in the work involved in the breeding of plants and animals, but, I hold fast to my statement that legal ownership of rights do not go beyond the limits of Name,Trademark,or design, which I find hard to reconcile with the phylogenetic development of a plant. I'm not a lawyer, nor am I "fluent" in all the aspects of law, but I do consider myself an all-around commonsense based man and retaining patent rights on biological properties is not a reasonable concept to me. The process or design of reaching the desired outcome in biology has a right to be "patented" but the central substance, the product, does not. Even if the outcome is repeatable. There are too many variables involved (to me) to place hard and fast absolutes in regards to biological organisms to be able to say "I am the maker of this." I apologize for the long,but hopefully coherent, reply and I hope your business and work prospers, my friend, roses are my favorite flowers!
Hi James. There are no hard feelings for an honest disagreement on my part, and since neither of us are lawyers we're actually wresting with a question of "what ought to be?" (ethically) rather than "what is the law?".
I'll set aside the issue of trademarked names, because I don't really think these companies are using trademarks appropriately anyway. But when it comes to the breeders rights to own their work, it's not really so different than an author, musician or any other artist. No, an author didn't invent the words or language they use (with maybe Tolkien excepted), but they can be strung together in innumerable combinations - and when done well, the work of an author requires intentionality. A painter or sculptor doesn't create the physical properties of their materials. This colors, textures and forms were beautiful already on someone else's canvas and in nature itself. A plant breeder uses his or her creativity in a different medium is all. The work is not easy, nor is the result assured except through perseverance.
To your point of a breeder not being able to say "I am the maker of this", it's a fair point, but if you want to drill it down, you'd have to say the same for *every* work of art I've already mentioned, since every other artist is also working with cultural or physical media that they've derived from outside themselves and don't have complete control over.
But on to the ethical (and practical) core of the issue so far as I'm concerned: laws should be written to be fair and to strike a pragmatic balance between the rights of individuals. As between the breeder of the plant, who put significant work into the creation of a variety, and someone who didn't, who should have rights over that plant? Who should be able to profit from that work? Is it fair that a 3rd party could make many copies (or in this case, multiply many parts of the original) and then sell those copies for their own profit without any financial consideration to the person who did the creative work?
If there were no protection (at least for a reasonable duration) of these rights, and thus no practical way to financially compensate innovations in plant breeding, what would be the incentive to do the work? Should it all just be government funded as a "public good" then? And then who decides what breeding efforts are worthwhile and should be supported? A bureaucracy? I mean, I don't love everything about private ownership, inheritance and intellectual property law, but it's seems to offer more freedom, fairness and dignity for individuals than the alternatives.
@@FraserValleyRoseFarm well said sir. I also hold no ill feelings, but rather enjoy and appreciate civilized discussions. I am no communist or marxist and believe we will all get our rewards when we give account of the lives we've led to our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ from whom ALL things were created and given. Again, my friend, I hope your work and business is fruitful and prosperous. Have a blessed day!