I am new to speaker designing and i have learned the basics about speaker designing like Xsim, the importance of measuring speakers but i am very confused about the difference between impedance phase and speaker phase (the phase in FRD files). If you have the time i would love a video about that
measurements are great and all but all that matters is how it sounds. measurements have their place, yes. but you have to listen to it also to make sure said measurements are doing what you want it to do.
franzb69 Perfect logic. I mean, if the person who owns this Klipsch “liked the way they sounded” the fact that it’s missing a critical part of the response wouldn’t matter right?
Great video! Thank you for sharing knowledge. Is there ever a time when we should do a room measurement with BOTH speakers playing? Would that combined measurement tell us anything?
Hello Danny, I was always wondering how manufactures of horn systems got around timing issues with long horns like my 1971 Altec Valancia 846A. The VOTT A7 was time aligned, but the smaller 846A and 846B were not. I think they have the horn drivers wired 180 out of phase with respect to the woofer. Crossover point is 800 hz and wavelength is .425 meters or somewhere around 16,73 inches.
wow, we don't stand a chance of buying good speakers do we? Any suggestions on which speakers I could buy for a decent atmos setup? I thought the rp 8000f were suppose to be such good speakers. I was thinking of upgrading to the rp 8000f. Now which speakers should I buy?
@John sweda The measurement shown was correct. Not only did the drivers not reach each other in range, but they were also not in phase. Those aren't things that are done deliberately. These speakers showed a response and timing error. And I am a professional loudspeaker designer. The guys you liked to are not. They run a website featuring a lot of disinformation on many subjects.
@@johnsweda2999 I do this professionally. Companies the country bring or send product to me for measuring and evaluation services all the time. I use a professional level Clio measurement system. It is as good as they come. There was nothing wrong with the measurement taker or equipment. And that graph is using a 5db scale. The only thing not right that I could see was the design work for that model.
@@dannyrichie9743 where are the John sweda message ? are you really shure the mesurement was donne is good condition ? not too close ? ? not off-axe of the mid speaker ? so you're a professional loudspeaker designer...offert your expertise to Klipsh, they need you ;)
uhm nope, that has other reasons. like they probable have a 2e order filter witch creates 180 phase shift. so if you want it to be in phase you switch a tweeter in reverse :)
With my s3000pro i started noticing the left speaker has a few db more treble around 8000-12500 which makes it sound slightly airier than the right one. I would like to know how common(acceptable) this is and if i should take it back to the seller. Cant seem to find anything on the internet where someone measures the difference between left and right.
Thanks so much, Danny. That was the best description of spkr vs room measurements I’ve ever heard. Ron, thank you for posting those 2 vids. I really enjoyed how the subject matter was similar, and played on each other. How’re you liking the Aegir and Freya + ? Do you feel the 2 of them as monoblocks sound good enough to warrant a price of $1,600 or so?
New Record Day Ron, do you like the Schiit stuff enough that you’re gonna end up buying the stuff sent to you for review? What are you using right now as your reference system that you own and is not in for review too, if ya don’t mind me asking?
Hey, Danny, I have A LOT of questions related to this video below. You could possibly use these questions as a guide for future Tech Talks... It is understood that you develop speaker designs and test and optimize other manufacturer's designs for manufacturers and individuals. I am seriously interested in your NX-line but it seems that availability of the ribbon tweeters is limited at best. I trust you earn most of your income doing consulting work for speaker manufacturers. On to my real questions... How do we do room measurements to tune our rooms? How do we treat room modes to minimize peaks & valleys; esp. in the bass (
at least one of your questions i can answer, how to apply eq. dont measure, use ears. google search tone generator(szynalski) and use that for frequency generation. that slider let you exactly hone in on the response you hear, write it down or adjust real time if you can. its actually easier to download equalizer apo (peace) and do all the eq real time there and then after you are done and if you dont want to use eq apo you know have a visual graph of the changed you made so it can transmitted into your eq of choice. also bass issues can be resolved with having all speakers be sealed, ports conflict with subwoofers.
sudd I appreciate the effort but prefer to tune the room via diaphragmatic bass traps, absorption and quadratic diffusers. EQ would be a last ditch effort. I’m pretty close to audio nirvana. 😜 An OB or planar speaker set would be an awesome complement to my TL mains and sealed subs.
The tweeters used in the NX Series are our own drivers. And we stock a LOT of them. There are a lot of software packages out there that will allow you to measure your room response. Just take one speaker at a time and start working with placement and absorbing or diffusing panels until a linear response is achieved. It sounds like you are on the right track. You just need to figure out what is causing your suck out.
Jakub Orlikowski The only difference is you wouldn’t have to produce a gated response. I’ve done both and to be honest, there was very little difference in the measurements.
I can't believe that's the original crossover...there must be a defective component or a failure in the crossover. If That's from the manufacturer that would be scary. Was this crossover a mod that went bad? This crossover would give all new meaning for the BBC dip. LOL!
@@dannyrichie9743 Maybe the crossover summing happens when the mic is placed on the upper woofer axis, this is worth a try as you'll have more delay on the tweeter that way
@@dannyrichie9743 I guess that linear and balanced sounding speakers don't sell well according to some manufacturers. If people only get to hear coloured sound all the time, they will think it to be normal. I'm afraid this may already be the case and engineers design their products that way
10:00 1m tweeter axe for a speaker using 10" mid it's too close, the mid are off-axe for his cutoff and the distance between the drivers are not correct from the perspective of microphone, basic accoustic rules put the mic 2m away and i'm prety shure the crossover point will looks better you can mesure the mid in his axe too, you'll see the differences with your mesurement or maybe klipsh sold his most expensive speaker with a LP on the mid one octave too low...maybe not...
@@dannyrichie9743 hum...no...it's your mesurement of the klipsh RP8000f 2 way, klipsh need learn how making speaker, of NRD need learn how making mesurement, pick one
Danny could sell a speaker to a deaf person.. he's just that knowledgeable. I've always been playing around with speakerpositions to affect my sound, since i bought my first technics stereo at 18, and more so when i started building my own speakers at 19. But listening to Danny makes me realize i know absolutely jack-shit about these things. Soaking up a little bit of knowledge every time. But i guess getting compliments from friends when they're over for a coffee and listen to some records is compliments enough... for now.
REW gets a bad name now, REW is not a EQ program, it has all the tools to do decent speaker measurements. it can as any other measurement setup also do room measurements. and can generate EQ setings to get a desired response from a dsp. nothing more nothing less. it does not mean you have to use it for that :). by the way there is a method to use multiple measurements around the room then take an average. then EQ that. mostly low. never use it but it can give some benefit.
Wow. That’s really awful!!! I wouldn’t have thought that would be good enough for a Klipsch tower but I’m not a consumer of products like this in this price range. Just thought they would have done better. Now I’m really curious to see some of their higher end products graphs. Also curious to see their THX cinema on wall series graphs. I’ve thought about getting some of those for my children’s’ game room/media room.
Yeah, that computer still runs on that operating system and is NOT plugged into the Internet. It is a dedicated measurement system. So no need to change the operating system.
? If you don’t have a anechoic chamber. I was shown if you’re lucky enough to live in the woods or countryside can you have a steep hill slope. Hoisting your speaker up on a 24 foot ladder facing outwards down the slope of the hill. And your microphone on a long pole place in front of the speaker out door measurements no wind of course no reflections. Very little to no expense if you’re lucky enough to live in such a location. It’s free cheap and easy and no effort unless your speakers weigh over 50 pounds you will need a helper.
Great video. Keep up the Tuesday tech talk !
Great job Danny , thank you for the time spent on educating All of us !
Great video. Thanks Danny for the parts
I am new to speaker designing and i have learned the basics about speaker designing like Xsim, the importance of measuring speakers but i am very confused about the difference between impedance phase and speaker phase (the phase in FRD files). If you have the time i would love a video about that
Good idea. One is an electrical shift in phase and one is dealing with an acoustical shift in phase.
measurements are great and all but all that matters is how it sounds. measurements have their place, yes. but you have to listen to it also to make sure said measurements are doing what you want it to do.
franzb69 Perfect logic. I mean, if the person who owns this Klipsch “liked the way they sounded” the fact that it’s missing a critical part of the response wouldn’t matter right?
@@jon1810 if the user is perfectly happy with it, why fix it when it ain't broke? Not everyone is as anal retentive as most audiophiles.
Great video! Thank you for sharing knowledge. Is there ever a time when we should do a room measurement with BOTH speakers playing? Would that combined measurement tell us anything?
No. Always take them one at a time.
Hello Danny, I was always wondering how manufactures of horn systems got around timing issues with long horns like my 1971 Altec Valancia 846A. The VOTT A7 was time aligned, but the smaller 846A and 846B were not. I think they have the horn drivers wired 180 out of phase with respect to the woofer. Crossover point is 800 hz and wavelength is .425 meters or somewhere around 16,73 inches.
There really is not getting around it. Sometimes the physical offsets are just too great.
Good, clear, thorough explanation because = Danny.
def want to see more danny videos
Nobody’s mentioned this before, very helpful. 👍
Nice. I love measurements 101. Awesome
Very nice jog Sluggo
Good stuff here 👍
Great info! Thanks for sharing.
Bomb vid!
great video thx!
wow, we don't stand a chance of buying good speakers do we? Any suggestions on which speakers I could buy for a decent atmos setup? I thought the rp 8000f were suppose to be such good speakers. I was thinking of upgrading to the rp 8000f. Now which speakers should I buy?
@John sweda The measurement shown was correct. Not only did the drivers not reach each other in range, but they were also not in phase. Those aren't things that are done deliberately. These speakers showed a response and timing error.
And I am a professional loudspeaker designer. The guys you liked to are not. They run a website featuring a lot of disinformation on many subjects.
@@johnsweda2999 No, the drivers all measured fine and there was nothing wrong with the crossover. It was completely stock.
And I designed an upgrade for it that will be out next Tuesday.
@@johnsweda2999 I do this professionally. Companies the country bring or send product to me for measuring and evaluation services all the time. I use a professional level Clio measurement system. It is as good as they come. There was nothing wrong with the measurement taker or equipment. And that graph is using a 5db scale.
The only thing not right that I could see was the design work for that model.
@@dannyrichie9743 where are the John sweda message ?
are you really shure the mesurement was donne is good condition ? not too close ? ? not off-axe of the mid speaker ?
so you're a professional loudspeaker designer...offert your expertise to Klipsh, they need you ;)
Great info! Now I kinda understand why my Harbeth P3ESR has its tweeter polarity reversed. 😬
uhm nope, that has other reasons. like they probable have a 2e order filter witch creates 180 phase shift. so if you want it to be in phase you switch a tweeter in reverse :)
joppe peelen ... I’m not gonna go take up a diploma ... I’ll just stick to listening to the music. 😂🤣
Thanks!!!
I see that's why I see those speaker factory tours have small anechoic chamber to test there speaker instead of room
With my s3000pro i started noticing the left speaker has a few db more treble around 8000-12500 which makes it sound slightly airier than the right one. I would like to know how common(acceptable) this is and if i should take it back to the seller. Cant seem to find anything on the internet where someone measures the difference between left and right.
Thanks so much, Danny. That was the best description of spkr vs room measurements I’ve ever heard.
Ron, thank you for posting those 2 vids. I really enjoyed how the subject matter was similar, and played on each other.
How’re you liking the Aegir and Freya + ?
Do you feel the 2 of them as monoblocks sound good enough to warrant a price of $1,600 or so?
I’m thoroughly enjoying the gear! Really impressed and I would buy it.
New Record Day
Ron, do you like the Schiit stuff enough that you’re gonna end up buying the stuff sent to you for review?
What are you using right now as your reference system that you own and is not in for review too, if ya don’t mind me asking?
Hey, Danny,
I have A LOT of questions related to this video below. You could possibly use these questions as a guide for future Tech Talks...
It is understood that you develop speaker designs and test and optimize other manufacturer's designs for manufacturers and individuals. I am seriously interested in your NX-line but it seems that availability of the ribbon tweeters is limited at best. I trust you earn most of your income doing consulting work for speaker manufacturers. On to my real questions...
How do we do room measurements to tune our rooms? How do we treat room modes to minimize peaks & valleys; esp. in the bass (
at least one of your questions i can answer, how to apply eq.
dont measure, use ears. google search tone generator(szynalski) and use that for frequency generation. that slider let you exactly hone in on the response you hear, write it down or adjust real time if you can. its actually easier to download equalizer apo (peace) and do all the eq real time there and then after you are done and if you dont want to use eq apo you know have a visual graph of the changed you made so it can transmitted into your eq of choice.
also bass issues can be resolved with having all speakers be sealed, ports conflict with subwoofers.
sudd I appreciate the effort but prefer to tune the room via diaphragmatic bass traps, absorption and quadratic diffusers. EQ would be a last ditch effort.
I’m pretty close to audio nirvana. 😜 An OB or planar speaker set would be an awesome complement to my TL mains and sealed subs.
The tweeters used in the NX Series are our own drivers. And we stock a LOT of them.
There are a lot of software packages out there that will allow you to measure your room response. Just take one speaker at a time and start working with placement and absorbing or diffusing panels until a linear response is achieved.
It sounds like you are on the right track. You just need to figure out what is causing your suck out.
Danny Richie ❤️
So when yoou use auto eq it can lift that dip a little? I'm thinking about buying thhe rp 8000f or 6000f so it would be nice to know beforehand.
No amount of EQ is going to fix a phase issue.
What about speakers measurement outside? In good weather condition it will be accurate i think
Jakub Orlikowski The only difference is you wouldn’t have to produce a gated response. I’ve done both and to be honest, there was very little difference in the measurements.
04:40 -> the reason why dsp is not the solution. Room treatment is.
A great video would be uses of DSP. The good, the bad and the ugly. How it is used with Subwoofers, in Sonos products and with Bose products.
I can't believe that's the original crossover...there must be a defective component or a failure in the crossover. If That's from the manufacturer that would be scary. Was this crossover a mod that went bad? This crossover would give all new meaning for the BBC dip. LOL!
The crossover is original and does not appear to be damaged.
@@dannyrichie9743 Maybe the crossover summing happens when the mic is placed on the upper woofer axis, this is worth a try as you'll have more delay on the tweeter that way
@@bernardchesneau3091 I tried that too. It didn't get much better.
@@dannyrichie9743 I guess that linear and balanced sounding speakers don't sell well according to some manufacturers. If people only get to hear coloured sound all the time, they will think it to be normal. I'm afraid this may already be the case and engineers design their products that way
Was that speaker really made like that or was something wrong/modified with this specific one?
No, the Klipsch Speakers from the current RP series all have that dip. I had a pair of RP600Ms and they had that dip.
Nothing about the one I measured was defective in any way. And it responded well with a properly designed crossover.
What software are you using in the demo to capture and gate + process the measurements?
It is the Clio measuring system.
10:00 1m tweeter axe for a speaker using 10" mid it's too close, the mid are off-axe for his cutoff and the distance between the drivers are not correct from the perspective of microphone, basic accoustic rules
put the mic 2m away and i'm prety shure the crossover point will looks better
you can mesure the mid in his axe too, you'll see the differences with your mesurement
or maybe klipsh sold his most expensive speaker with a LP on the mid one octave too low...maybe not...
Is that Klipsch rp 8000f?
Yes.
@@dannyrichie9743 hum...no...it's your mesurement of the klipsh RP8000f
2 way, klipsh need learn how making speaker, of NRD need learn how making mesurement, pick one
Danny could sell a speaker to a deaf person.. he's just that knowledgeable.
I've always been playing around with speakerpositions to affect my sound, since i bought my first technics stereo at 18, and more so when i started building my own speakers at 19. But listening to Danny makes me realize i know absolutely jack-shit about these things.
Soaking up a little bit of knowledge every time. But i guess getting compliments from friends when they're over for a coffee and listen to some records is compliments enough... for now.
REW gets a bad name now, REW is not a EQ program, it has all the tools to do decent speaker measurements. it can as any other measurement setup also do room measurements. and can generate EQ setings to get a desired response from a dsp. nothing more nothing less. it does not mean you have to use it for that :).
by the way there is a method to use multiple measurements around the room then take an average. then EQ that. mostly low. never use it but it can give some benefit.
Wow. That’s really awful!!! I wouldn’t have thought that would be good enough for a Klipsch tower but I’m not a consumer of products like this in this price range. Just thought they would have done better. Now I’m really curious to see some of their higher end products graphs. Also curious to see their THX cinema on wall series graphs. I’ve thought about getting some of those for my children’s’ game room/media room.
I reckon that the massive dip is intentional to permit loud level listening as a commercial choice from the manufacturer
It's hard to take this guy seriously the second I saw he's still using windows xp. Anyway, I love the facts based, measurement based approach.
Yeah, that computer still runs on that operating system and is NOT plugged into the Internet. It is a dedicated measurement system. So no need to change the operating system.
ai Klipsh... thats a huge fail.
i'm not so shure...could be the fail of somebody else...the mesurement guy for exemple...
That was pretty boring.
? If you don’t have a anechoic chamber. I was shown if you’re lucky enough to live in the woods or countryside can you have a steep hill slope. Hoisting your speaker up on a 24 foot ladder facing outwards down the slope of the hill. And your microphone on a long pole place in front of the speaker out door measurements no wind of course no reflections. Very little to no expense if you’re lucky enough to live in such a location. It’s free cheap and easy and no effort unless your speakers weigh over 50 pounds you will need a helper.
FOMO on tech Portable battery powered inverter handheld .