The Differences Between Lutheranism and Eastern Orthodoxy
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- Опубліковано 22 сер 2024
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There are areas of agreement and disagreement between the Lutheran and Eastern Orthodox traditions. In this video, taken from my last Q&A podcast, I explain what some of those primary differences are.
I believe that the council you mean to reference was the early 4th-century Council of Elvira, not the Council of Toledo.
That is what I meant. Thanks!
Even to quite on my phone.
@@DrJordanBCooper why should I become Lutheran?
If you look at church history from the Apostles it leads to the Eastern Orthodox Church.
The Lutheran church came out of the reformation.
@@Patrick-qm7wf
*Orthodox Church sold real indulgences* for the forgiveness of sins, which could be gifted to another. The Ecumenical Patriarch fully acknowledges this and has honored the researcher who documented this abuse: orthochristian.com/7185.html, www.goarch.org/-/2019-08-31-ecumenical-patriarchate
*Orthodox Compline prayer to Mary:* weedon.blogspot.com/2009/08/thoughts-on-compline-prayer.html?m=0
In the divine liturgy, Orthodox priests sometimes take communion without offering communion to anyone in the congregation:orthodoxcityhermit.com/2016/08/09/often-receive-holy-communion/, books.google.com.tw/books?id=BOZBAQAAMAAJ
Moscow and Constantinople have been in schism since 2018 over sheer politics.en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Moscow%E2%80%93Constantinople_schism
I live in Taiwan. There are only two Orthodox parishes in the whole country, both in the same city, established as late as 2001. There are still no Taiwanese or fully Mandarin language masses or sermons. The only Taiwanese who have taken any interest are English-speaking former evangelicals. In contrast, evangelical Christians and Roman Catholics can be found in every village of every islet. Orthodox are so bad at the Great Commission because you only care about chronological uniformity, and ignore "disciples of all nations." Your church only understands half of the definition of the word catholic.
Jesus, Paul, and Andrew founded the Eastern Orthodox Church which is guilty of the above errors and abuses. Jesus, Stephen, the eunuch, and Mark founded the Oriental Orthodox Church, which rejects the Chalcedonian Definition. Jesus, Thaddeus, Bartholomew and Thomas founded the Church of the East, which you accuse of Nestorianism. Each one claims to be the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. These claims are as legitimate as yours. Apostolic succession has saved none of you from heresy.Yet somehow those Reformation churches who retain and preserve apostolic succession are illegitimate because of heresy.
@@Mygoalwogel Nice reply.
I've been to both Roman catholic and Eastern orthodox churches and found somewhat inconsistencies in each of them. Not that there is'nt found any among smaller evangelicals. But here I find the most sincerety; these flaws are obvious, but the bigger churches cover them up in themselves. Traditions of men or doctrines of demons do infiltrate certain parts of every church, but we should recognize and reject them when found. However most of the big churches refuses at large to do so. Smaller ones are easily pointed out and thus excommunicated or rebuked.
Though I did not know the Greek church also was guilty of indulgences, which is disappointing.
In the end I decided to become Lutheran myself, seeming that it is by cheer passion and commitment to Christ, which at least is my impression to practising ones.
The better we understand each other, the better we can help each other in our earthly responsibilities.
Your Orthodox brother in Christ.
Hey Brother. You are a bit quite in this video.
It may just be my phone, but if others noticed as well, maybe they can chime in for agreement.
Great Video!
Ya I can't hear you
Even with earbuds turned all the way up you are almost inaudible
Too loud can be turned down. Too quiet means a lost viewer.
My phone speaker sound is very low and the volume is turned all the way up.
Lutherans do not do sound/audio well at all. A " video" also means AUDIO.
Please can we be a as professional with our presentations in sound/video as we are with our preachments.
God bless,
A Lutheran
quiet, not quite. Yes sound is softer than other videos. Sorry for the spelling correction but as of late I keep seeing people spell it incorrectly online and it seems to be a thing. I’m sure yours was just autocorrect. Blessings
Good representation of the topics.
I am Orthodox and concur.
Yours in Christ
Greek american here. I feel doom and hell when i listen or read from orthodox fathers. I read hope and joy and GRACE when i read Luthers quotes on justification and Christianity.
Thank you Reverend Cooper. Your videos and books made this former Baptist missionary and pastor an Anglican with a kind of via media perspective between confessional Lutheranism and Eastern Orthodoxy.
what?
I am an Orthodox Christian who is the graduate of an LCMS college. I did not study theology but learned a great deal about confessional Lutheranism. I think your video is a good general summary. I would point out that the real division between Lutheranism and Orthodoxy lies in Augustinian theology. Lutheranism is inconceivable without Augustine while Orthodoxy is inconceivable with him. His ideas were novel at the time and being written in Latin we're unread by the Orthodox east. The few easterners who knew Latin such as St. John Cassian were mortified by Augustine. Many of us Orthodox still think of him as heretical.
You do know that the Augustinian Canons of Carthage are appended to Trullo - and thus Eccumemicaly binding to the East? That happened at the 6th Eccumemical Council. So you basically have to accept the Augustinian conclusions over Cassians semipelagianism
But Eastern Orthodoxy officially holds Augustine as a Saint. So, which is it?
@@dave1370 He is a saint through and through. There are errors in his teachings, but no saint outside of the most holy Theotokos is perfect. We do not believe, for instance, all of mankind is guilty of Adam and Eve’s sin (nor by extension that all unbaptized babies are guaranteed damnation) nor that the Holy Spirit is merely just the result of the energies between the Father and the Son.
Eastern Orthodox liturgy praises Augustine, including for his works against the heretics
You really express yourself so well here. I totally agree with you about the influence of St Augustine on Lutheranism. However, in Augustine's defence he did not know how future people would distort his ideas or take them as 'Gospel.' He would have happily bowed to the Patristic consensus.
Iam a Lutheran Orthodox, I pray the Lutheran rosary part 1 and 2 and I believe in the Assumption of Mary, not the immaculate conception because was not born without sin and she accepted Jesus Christ as savior. We call her the Theotokos, and she is the Mother(queen of earth) not of heaven, she is Christ assistant not the ruler, I believe in the blessed sacraments of the Lord. I believe in the Holy Trinity and Lords commandments, and Luthers small and Large catechisms. For those of you who are Lutheran Orthodox or Just Lutheran May God be with you and in everything in prayer during COVID 19.
Greek american here. I feel doom and hell when i listen or read from orthodox fathers. I read hope and joy and GRACE when i read Luthers quotes on justification and Christianity.
I am luthrean also could you tell me more about Luthrean Orthodox what makes you different
Great video!
As an Orthodox Christian it was interesting to hear your take on veneration. Especially how you mentioned that because you hold to Sola Scriptura you can’t
view them as windows to heaven.
You stated that the scripture was the only “God-Breathed” or Divine Authority you can follow.
In the Orthodox Church we believe that the tradition passed down to us is Divine and comes from a Divine Authority, that being the Holy Fathers. We believe the Holy Spirit spoke through them “Delivering plainly to The Church the Mystery of discoursing in Theology....What a Divine army, ye God inspired soldiers of the camp of The Lord. Ye most brilliant luminaries in the super-sensuous firmament....Ye scented flock of paradise.”
We believe their authority is Divine, that is where we get our tradition from when it comes to veneration and a variety of other things!
God be with you☦️
Us Lutherans very much do see the early church fathers as authoritative. Just not higher or equal to that of God's words. Do you believe the Fathers are infallible?
@@Nonz.M Not at all. Christ alone is infallible. We rather believe them to be divinely inspired. We believe they were guided by the Holy Spirit to rightly divide the word of truth.
Ironically, in the Orthodox Church we celebrated the 318 Holy Fathers of the first ecumenical council yesterday. There are some God bearing fathers which are more renowned than others (St. Nicholas, St. Spyridon), but even them we do not hold to be without sin, if that is what you meant by infallible. If you rather meant that the doctrine they put forth is infallible, yes we do believe that to be true.
@@GeorgeZain If you believe that the doctrine they put forward is infallible, then you should agree with what they say on sola scriptura:
“Regarding the things I say, I should supply even the proofs, so I will not seem to rely on my own opinions, but rather, prove them with Scripture, so that the matter will remain certain and steadfast.” St. John Chrysostom (Homily 8 On Repentance and the Church, p. 118, vol. 96 TFOTC)
"Let the inspired Scriptures then be our umpire, and the vote of truth will be given to those whose dogmas are found to agree with the Divine words." St. Gregory of Nyssa (On the Holy Trinity, NPNF, p. 327).
“What is the mark of a faithful soul? To be in these dispositions of full acceptance on the authority of the words of Scripture, not venturing to reject anything nor making additions. For, if ‘all that is not of faith is sin’ as the Apostle says, and ‘faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God,’ everything outside Holy Scripture, not being of faith, is sin.” St. Basil the Great (The Morals, p. 204, vol 9 TFOTC).
“For concerning the divine and holy mysteries of the Faith, not even a casual statement must be delivered without the Holy Scriptures; nor must we be drawn aside by mere plausibility and artifices of speech. Even to me, who tell you these things, give not absolute credence, unless you receive the proof of the things which I announce from the Divine Scriptures. For this salvation which we believe depends not on ingenious reasoning, but on demonstration of the Holy Scriptures.” St. Cyril of Jerusalem (Catechetical Lectures, IV:17, in NPNF, Volume VII, p. 23.)
"It is impossible either to say or fully to understand anything about God beyond what has been divinely proclaimed to us, whether told or revealed, by the sacred declarations of the Old and New Testaments." St. John of Damascus, On the Orthodox Faith, Book I, Chapter 2
@@Nonz.M
What you provided doesn't suggest Sola Scriptura. It suggests that the scripture is important and has its place. You did a good job cherry picking quotes that sound like they're promoting the sole use of scripture but you're completely missing literally everything else outside of your brief quoting.
@@SeraphimVolker No you are mistaken. You are too stubborn to admit the fault of eastern orthodoxy. It has backslidden in to idolatry and ancestor worship. It is sin.
Greek american here. I feel doom and hell when i listen or read from orthodox fathers. I read hope and joy and GRACE when i read Luthers quotes on justification and Christianity.
Divine Love
Pastor Cooper, my speakers may not be the best on my laptop and the sound issue may be an issue at my end. But most of your videos I can hear perfectly fine but a few like this particular video I can barely hear what you say even with everything turned to 100%.
Hmm... sorry about that. When I play it here it sounds ok. I didn't do anything differently than usual in terms of mic settings.
I hear the Chewy advertisement perfectly fine at the beginning.
@@jnota1 Well, I can up the volume next time.
@@DrJordanBCooper The sound is way too low. You might want to fix that and re-post, as your argument is undoubtedly interesting if onlly one could hear it.
I use to have external speakers and that solved any sound issues I may have been having. It's interesting after playing this video it goes to another one of your videos and BOOM your voice is loud. I am particularly interested in this subject because I visited an EO church 5 minutes from my home (twice) and really did not like it. No pews except some seats along the outer walls. Most stand through the whole service. At my Lutheran church we bow at the altar and will bow towards the crucifix during the procession, but EO takes adoration of icons to a whole higher level. I learned they fast before every service (that is if they want to take communion.) They have a meal after every service to break the fast. They do the sign of the cross a lot but with one noticeable difference of bowing down and touching the floor.
Also, I'm a brand new pastor. Ordained on Jan 11!
Congratulations. Best job in the world. Responsibility like the President...pay like a Seargeant...Wish I could but I wouldn't qualify
Waitwaitwait- So you're telling me there is a church that sees value and validity in ideas of the EOC, has the history on it's side (ie isn't some novelty as evangelicalism tends to become) but maintains a common sense hermeneutic in the filioque controversy *AND* sees the absurdity of the Pope's "first amongst equals" distinction? Where do I sign?
In all seriousness- Lutheranism has been quite compelling to me for a while now, and I'm praying about whether or not God would have me join...
I’m a catechumen in the EO Church now, and the feminization within the ranks of the ordained clergy really turned me off. The parish in my local diocese is even pastored by some short-haired woman. Utterly disappointing... Especially considering that I WANTED to like Lutheranism.
Christ be with you!
@@permanenceaesthetic6545 wherever you are you saw a Lutheran church that had fallen to Higher Criticism and thus to other liberal movements. I’m saddened that they ruined your view on Lutheranism. There are confessional Lutheran churches out there that haven’t fallen for higher criticism like in America the Missouri Synod in America for example. If you still want to look into these churches. The church you saw was not Lutheran.
@@drewS1818
But that’s exactly the problem. These other “Lutheran” branches didn’t start out as cesspools of modernity. It took many years to bring them to this point.
My issue is that how do we know these other branches you speak of won’t fall into the same trap. As many issues as Orthodoxy might have, you will never - and I repeat - never witness these downright repugnant abuses within the Orthodox Church. It just does not happen. That alone is enough to bring me peace. I know that if I raise my children in the EOC, that that church will continue to remain for eternity. Whereas I’m not so sure about Lutheranism...
@@permanenceaesthetic6545 I have the same confidence as you. Confessional Lutheran Churches will not fall for a teaching like higher criticism or another heresy. They stand firm on the authority of the Scripture and that has been true since Christ.
@@drewS1818 I wish there was an LCMS near me.
For me, and I’ve worshipped in many Orthodox churches, am very familiar with Orthodox teaching, have read the fathers and studied church history deeply for years, the main difference is ecclesiology. Eastern Orthodoxy clings to the notion of a divinely ordained church bureaucracy, very similar to the Roman church, though not identical in conception. Lutherans cannot find this in the New Testament, and no serious reader of the New Testament will ever find this, I don’t care what anyone says, so Lutherans reject this view of the church. Before anyone starts huffing and puffing at me, I’ve read the New Testament once or twice, including in the original Greek after studying this language for many years and I see nothing about the absolute necessity of bishops ordained in apostolic succession as though this were the constitutive factor of what makes church. There’s language in the epistles about Paul and others ordaining successors, but these mystical theories about succession cannot be found on these references. I’m sorry, and I’m not the first person to have read the New Testament and walked away with this understanding.
I became Lutheran Orthodox last summer and their are 40 Lutheran denominations, and Lutheran Orthodoxy was one of them. Also, I was raised in the LCMS congregation growing up.
Dr. Cooper, the UA-cam commercials on your channel are blasting my eardrums. I have blue tooth ear buds.
I dont see how sola scriptura rules out the use of Orthodox use of icons. Sola scirptura, as I understand it, says simply that scripture is an authority, and that when tradition and scripture conflict, it is scripture that is the judge.
Not that if it doesn't exist in scripture, we do not do it. So if the veneration of icons is not in the scriptures, but was a church tradition, it would come down to a scripture specifically saying not to do it, or that doing it is wrong, or heresy, that would make it untenable, not simply that scripture doesn't mention it?
I think leavened and unleavened bread are adiaphora.
I'm starting to understand... I didnt know Lutherans were kind of ok with the old school stuff
I looked into Eastern Orthodoxy for the last 2 years, but now I am back to being a Lutheran. Honestly, I would be a Ukrainian Lutheran if they operated nearby.I also believe in Confession and that the saints should be celebrated more often. Also, I sort-of dislike how there is so much hedonism in some parts of the Lutheran church which is why I started researching Orthodoxy and believe in some of its beliefs in the first place.
why should the Saints be celebrated more often? Were they not sinners themselves?
please explain how Lutheranism contains hedonism?
@@BibleLovingLutheran the saints were sinners, but were fully repentant and did so many good works they were canonized. Sola Scriptura is wacky enough you guys don't have to ignore thousands of examples of holy lives worth replicating or stop praying to them too.
@@highviewbarbell we pray to God. He’s a jealous God. Keep it up it’s your soul that goes to hell. We still look to the saints as examples and love and honor them but we don’t make them deities.
@@BibleLovingLutheran nor do orthodox bro. Praying to the saints is exactly the same as asking your friend or family member to pray to you, and you do that don't you? "Saint George, please pray for me in my hour of need" that's all you need. Is that deification or idolizing? no, obviously. it's the same thing you'd ask your friend to do, and we do it to the saints for the same reason.
The Armenian Church uses unleavened bread only. The Ethiopian uses unleavened on Maundy Thursday, and leavened the other days. The Assyrians say their is leavened, but their "leaven" is unleavened. The matter of the (un)leavenness of the bread was not a concern of most of the first millennium. But all believed in the real presence.
And the Greeks and the Russian orthodox act like the whole east is one big happy communion. Pray for the Old Believer Orthodox, Genuine Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Syrian Orthodox, Assyrian Orthodox, and Chaldean Orthodox who are bitterly persecuted by Muslims, Russian government, and Greek government. I don't know whether the Pope, Islam, or Church-States are the worse antichrist.
The entire leavened-unleavened controversy between East and West always struck me as highly Pharisaical. So this communion becomes invalid because it does/doesn't have yeast in it? Really?
How are orthodox different on the subject of justification?
I thought the main difference would be on the 5 Sola, does Orthodox Church recognize them as accurate? I don't think they stick to sola scriptura or other solas.
Also canon of Old Testament scriptures does not match your canon (nor my, as I am catholic).
Thank you. Audio was low.
Thanks for posting! Is there any audio setting you can apply to the video and re-upload so it is louder?
So the Catholics distorted the creed, and protestants threw out Catholicism, but kept their distortion? Because a few hundred years ago people didn't know any better and now you're bound to follow that for some reason? Why not just follow Catholicism then or Orthodoxy. It's not logically consistent.
Dr. Cooper, I’m a conservative, some would say ‘Orthodox’ Catholic I’m curious if you would hold to the proposition that your particular branch or Lutheranism and like Lutherans ad well as other Sacramental churches such as Roman catholic churches and a church Anglicans as well as these fourth an ox would constitute the term known as the church Catholic? More succinctly, whether we could form an ecumenical body which worships as the early church and particular the Apostles envisioned the church to worship as? Thank you and God bless.
I do not speak English, I'm using the Google translator.
I was born into a Roman Catholic family and then became interested in Eastern Orthodoxy ... But I was disappointed and now I am interested in Lutheranism, but struggling to detach myself from certain issues that arose in me during my time as an "orthodox Christian."
I need help at this difficult time.
God bless you.
I hope you figured out your problems my brother
Greek american here. I feel doom and hell when i listen or read from orthodox fathers. I read hope and joy and GRACE when i read Luthers quotes on justification and Christianity.
what disappointed you
Really! You don’t need to change your faith. You need to change. Catholic faith is the true faith
9:05 - 9:28 I understand you have a different view on Iconography than the Orthodox, but your explanation of why Lutherans bow towards the altar sounds very much how most Orthodox would explain why we bow to an Icon. It's not venerating the wood or the paint. One time I attended a traditional Lutheran mass and I think I can remember people also bowing their heads as the processional cross passed by. (am I wrong about that memory, or is that perhaps only a local practice that isn't necessarily something that all Lutherans do?)
If I might speak for him, the problem with icons is twofold:
1) Their sacramental character as "windows to heaven" is contradicted by the biblical characterization of human-made images. Lutheranism makes clear that icons are wood and paint and nothing more. No veneration passes on to the archetype.
2) Their forced veneration (under penalty of anathema, Nicaea II) goes far beyond anything the Apostles ever would have conceived. Even if I am a little squeamish about bowing the head to the processional cross, such action is not similar to the extravagant iconodulia, bowing (including full prostration), kissing, offering candles and incense, etc., seen in the East and Catholic West. Jordan points this out at some other points when he talks about the dulia/latria distinction, which is valid, collapses when you observe the actual practices.
As a Wisconsin Synod Lutheran, I've never seen a processional cross, but we do bow whenever we approach the altar during worship, because that's where God establishes His presence.
Audio is too low
I left the ELCA for LCMS but I find myself researching the orthodoxy more and more…I’m conflicted, my wife grew up with nazarin values but she’s non denominational essentially.
Are Lutherans required to hold that the decision to add the Filioque was prudent and sound?
no, it's just in the creed that's been passed down; to remove it would be commonly seen as a condemnation of Christ breathing the Spirit on the Apostles.
A question for Lutherans: Did the Pope have the Authority to insert FILIOQUE into the Nicene Creed, a creed derived through the Council of Nicea, 325 AD ???
Catholic here.
No, he didn't, but he also didn't do that. Filioque wasn't inserted by the pope at first, it's usage in liturgy started in some small communities of western Church, at first in Toledo, then it spread widely in western Church and it was ages before the catholic-orthodox schism (in fact filioque was for the first time codified in Toledo in VI century, so 5 ages before split).
Of course we shouldn't have changed the creed. But it happened and the teaching is correct. Good thing is if we really sit down with Orthodox Christians and tell our minds about what does Filioque mean, the problem disappears. Turns out we have the same teaching, just from different perspectives. And this is the case in most catholic-orthodox doctrinal problems.
Lutheran here. I agree pretty much with what Malgorzata said. It definitely shouldn't have been added without the consent of the whole church. But if it's understood as the Holy Spirit being sent also by the Son, then it's more agreeable for all I think. Christ breathed the Holy Spirit on the apostles, and promised to send us the Holy Spirit Himself. I agree that this may be a different thing than saying He PROCEEDS from the Father, in an eternal procession sense. I really hope this is something we can all resolve on this side of the grave.
@@bethanyann1060 Just to clarify, the addition was to the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed, since the original Nicene Creed (as in, the one adopted in 325 and not in 380/1) literally only said ". . . and in the Holy Spirit" and that was all it said on the Holy Spirit.
A deeper discussion of absolute Divine simplicity would be interesting - and also the essence/energy distinction.
Can you please turn your volume levels up? I had you on full volume in my car and can't hear over the road noise. I've had this issue with a lot of your videos.
What should I read of Paul Gerhardt? Also, is there a collection of hymns specifically for Gerhardt? Was he a Lutheran Orthodox in a sea of Lutheran Pietism? On a different note, you should do a video talking about Lutheran Pietism! From Spener to today! I see it in every form of Lutheranism in the United States. What are its pros and cons? Was Spener different than his immediate and long-term spiritual descendents?
extra _nos As you will notice Spener’s Pia Desideria was published a year before Paul Gerhardt’s death, Pietism in my understanding only really started at that time say 1675. Yet I do think you may confuse Paul Gerhardt the psalm writer and theologian with Johann Gerhard the theologian who died in 1637 and therefore didn’t get into contact with Pietism but was an Orthodox Lutheran through and through and it is he who is being referred to in this video.
Nice EO beard Rev. Cooper. 😉 I’m jealous ‘cause I can’t grow one! 😖
No, it's a good PCA beard. He looks like half the guys in my PCA church. ( I wish it were an orthodox Lutheran or Anglican parish, Dr. Cooper, but geographical and other circumstances don't permit it. I would never subscribe to a Presby channel here on UA-cam, however. Your videos, and those of the 1517 people, especially Rod Rosenbladt's, are sweet music to my ears. )
This was a great video. Thank you so much for sharing your knowledge and for your even handed and respectful approach. I think there might be some matters where the Eastern Church is less precise whereas the Western Church us more influenced by scholasticism. One question that I have is about how Luther and the Reformers held to Sola Scriptura but either failed to recognize that the Bible itself was the product of Councils or disregarded this fact while declaring that the same councils were fallible and erred-- how does one reconcile that? If the Bible is the infallible rule of law, and contains all things necessary to salvation, why would one disregard the other positions of the councils but trust this one? Also, I have heard it pointed out that Sola Scriptura fails its own test, as it is not laid out in the Bible. Is that a fair position?
Thank you for your time, and I appreciate the good work you do!
@Honey George This is a great comment and deserves much more thought and a decent response (I apologize- I have literally 5 minutes before a meeting), but the point that seems paradoxical to me is that if you judge counsels on the basis of Sola Scriptura, how could you judge the counsels where the Canon was chosen? You can't apply a standard that doesn't yet exist. I don't believe I'm oversimplifying- not deliberately anyway.
@Honey George That does help a great deal. I guess the question, then would be if the Holy Spirit guided the compilation of the Canon, and we know that there were universal criteria that were used, why would He not guide the succeeding Ecumenical counsels?
Just so you know, this is not at all from a place of trying to be argumentative. I've always respected the Lutheran position on the authority of scripture, but I'm trying to understand it better- it seems to be that in the Lutheran view, Scripture is the final authority- like St. Gregory of Palamas says: let Scripture judge between us. In the Reformed view, it would seem (to steal a phrase from Dr. Cooper) more like solo Scriptura, meaning nothing else even if there is no contradistinction against the scriptural position.
Much to think about. Thank you for that! :)
@Honey George wow. Respect. You got me there, brother. I know this is a long shot, but have you ever heard of Rock and Sand? It's an Orthodox appraisal of the Reformation.
@Honey George cool. I wanted to ask your opinion on it. I know that Fr. Trenham is a former Presbyterian pastor and was very well educated. So yeah I just wanted to know your take. I'm also Orthodox myself, so that's how I came to know of Fr. Trenham.
@@simontemplar3359 one thing I may add to the council conversation. We see all through the the OT the Jews running away from God and coming back over and over again. I think it’s safe to say that like Ecclesiastes states, “there is nothing new under the sun” that we can expect the church to parallel that tendency somewhat.
We see all through the epistles that false gospels and bad doctrine are everywhere even with the presence of the apostles.
I would also like to point out that while God speaks clearly sometimes. Sometimes He doesn’t and when pride and distracting influences like politics come into play.
So well meaning truly godly men can still fall into grave error when presented with difficult subjects seen through the lens of political pressure. Political meaning both church and state politics.
Just some thoughts on how the councils could be fallible
Dear Dr. Cooper,
Am I wrong to believe Lutheranism may have as much in common with Orthodox Church as it does with certain Protestant sects such as Independent Baptist or certain new non-denominational churches, such as John MacArthur's Sun Valley?
Certainly. I would say we have much more in common with the EO than an independent fundamental baptist.
@@DrJordanBCooper This made me so happy!
Almost inaudible :'(
I have met two men who were young, ordained Missouri Synod pastors who joined the Antiochian Church as Priests.
Lutherans says "Be lutheran, be liturgical " but in the same time they says is not necessary to be lutheran ..the only thing matter is beliving in Christ...really!??
One has Apostolic succession and the other does not.
but doesn't denial of the filioque invite a misunderstanding of making Jesus not so much God?
Yeah, but the problem as I understand it, was the heresy some priests were teaching that the Father can't exist without the Son and so forth. The EO Patriarchs were fine with the understanding of the three loves and even the filoque had it been taught in an orthodox way, but Rome went ahead and added it in after a truce, bringing schism. Honestly, if it weren't for justification and the filoque I'd run to the East seeing the mess larger Protestantism became.
@@PipingPsalmist but God is the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit unless you’re Mormon and then they’re three separate personages. God is a family. It’s a beautiful mystery. I don’t do popes, nor do I see Mary as a mediator to Christ. Indulgences and purgatory are more added silliness.
@@BibleLovingLutheran Noone is debating that, man...The EO as far as I understand affirm every point there accept they do venerate/ask for the saints to pray for them and I think Purgatory was an old Testament thing (Abraham's bosom/sheol) for the OT saints but Jesus released them when HE died on the cross and they were resurrected with him. Peter also references Jesus preaching to the dead, and in the Apocrypha you see the Jewish idea of purgatory presented in 1 or 2 Maccabees, I believe. The EO reject the Romish doctrine of Purgatory. And no, I'm not Mormon. I'm an Anglican converting to Lutheranism (LCMS)
On the contrary, the Orthodox Church has historically argued that the Filioque naturally leads to the Holy Spirit not being God. The denial of the Filioque is specifically with regards to the idea that the Spirit proceeds eternally from the Father and the Son as from one source. The problem with that from the Orthodox perspective is that if the Son is begotten from the Father and the Father's distinct hypostatic property is that He is the one who is the cause of the Son and the Spirit, then saying that both the Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son as from one source confuses the Father and the Son. On the Catholic / Protestant model, the Son participates in or shares a hypostatic property that the Spirit doesn't. That amounts to, in our view, a Dyad, not a Trinity.
This is actually very polite thank you doctor
Don't Western and Eastern Christianity have different soteriology?
You and Jonathan Fisk i Iike...
Nice video but sound is too low sorry to say
Do you have any thoughts on their view of the energies essences distinction?
Thank you for admitting your heresy of clinging to the Filioque. Your take on icons is odd. Do you not understand that letters on paper are a type of icon? What do you think writing is?
That is nice Ortho-beard you have.!
We belong Lcms a new family has visited that is eastern orthodox.
The family has a 3, 5, 9 year old Children that went up for communion. What are your thoughts?
Babies too
@@richardsaintjohn8391 yep, the whole family
The difference is 1500 years
You wrote 500 years wrong.
Some guy No, the Orthodox were around since 33AD. Lutheranism is a manmade religion.
@@TheRealRealOK Lutheran doctrine is based entirely on the Word of God
@@TheRealRealOK You will never be a real woman.
@@TheRealRealOK Lutheranism is a return to the true church after Rome went far astray.
You speak of the early church as if it no longer exists. When do you think it ended? Or did it just morph into something else? Did it end with the Great Schism or before that? I'm an Orthodox Christian and I don't see any cleavage between the early church and the Orthodox Church of today. That is essentially why I converted to Orthodoxy. Also, I would say there can be schism from the church but not within the church. The church is one.
I don't and will never follow reformed calvinism.
neither of these things is that lol
Do you have any videos in a level I would understand
I nearly moved over to Orthodoxy, and am wondering if there are any resources you'd recommend for stepping back in. How do I overcome my shame for nearly leaving?
Isaiah Poe Why feel shame for seeking the truth (Orthodoxy)? You should study Church history more. Don’t make the mistake of remaining ignorant.
No shame at all! Many of our best theologians and lay people honestly considered other churches and saw their merits before returning to the truths of Concord.
Pr. Will Weedon is one of those. I LOVE his online sermons on John, Hebrews and Romans! They're all the richer for having needed to drink deeply from the Church Fathers.
thewordendures.org
Nothing to fear. I was Lutheran And became Orthodox, and returned to the Gospel.
@@devinlawson2208 I actually did thoughtfully and prayerfully have my soul asked for in Orthodoxy.
@@isaiahpoe That's fine! Find Christ in your cell as St. Benedict teaches.
Id like to see your view on the new perspective on Paul.. even though iys different between James Dunn and NT Wright. But they do challenge Luthers view of works of the law.
The difference:
Eastern Orthodoxy is the 2,000-year old truth, Lutheranism is not.
John Sluder, oh, really? I was LCMS two months ago. I converted to Orthodoxy when I learned about church history.
Wake up.
John Sluder that’s very sad. If you know history, you know that the Catholic Church changed, not orthodoxy
John Sluder I’m sorry that we have such a long history that’s it’s hard to know what your asking. Could you ask a more specific question? I will be able to answer direct questions, not clearly stupid ones.
John Sluder no, we do believe in justification in faith alone, but we don’t ignore the truth. Faith in greek is a verb, an action. To have faith, you must show it. That’s what the Greek word faith means. Belief+works=faith. Remember, we wrote the bible.
John Sluder that’s pretty stupid. Nothing you said was true. We confirm children before they take communion, right after baptism. We did write the bible, I don’t care about your church. You clearly know nothing of the EO church, and if you can’t give an survinrent in your next reply, I’m just going to leave. Tear my faith apart, go ahead and try.
What about the deuterocannon? I'm not Catholic but there is an article on the Catholic site Shameless Poppery that just demolishes Matt Slicks (I know you probably know who he is) arguments against the inclusion of the deuterocannon. And didn't Martin Luther himself use the Bible with them...also is it true that he wanted to remove books in the new testament!
He came to the conclusion rhat the deuterocannon wasnt inspired, useful, but not scripture. Ironicallt enough, St. Jerome had come to a similar conclusion when translating the latin Vulget (or however its spelled...) but the Magisterium said to leave them in. He made an argument about removing the Book of James, presumably in a hyperbolic sense since it was never actually taken out, as it pertains to works and faith.
That website is deceptive
For the very last points differences at the end, you could have probably just said 'St. Augustine.' Come to think of it, you could have said that for the entire video and that would have been succinct enough.
There’s no getting around it, Lutheranism was created by a man, orthodoxy was created by god. Luther was a German narcissists who believed in German nationalism like hitler. It’s only a matter of time before you convert to orthodoxy.
Православље Maxboy50 Lmao, you are a funny guy
Reformed Dog It’s true. Luther knew Orthodoxy was true, but he decided to create his own religion. He wasn’t a hero.
@@snuurferalangur4357 Corrupt? True Orthodoxy is the only true faith. There is nothing corrupt about Christs Church, the only Church.
@@snuurferalangur4357 The Orthodox Church is the only Church of Christ, and in it is the body of Christ.
@@snuurferalangur4357 You will see the truth one day by the prayers of Mary.
I used headphones for better sound
Do you see theosis in Scripture?
Here's his answer:
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Yeahhhh let's just ignore every scripture about growing in holiness and in conformity with Christ, something we call sanctification...It's the same thing as theosis ad I understand it
Main difference: (Eastern Orthodox) Christianity was founded by Christ, Lutheranism by Luther. The name of the two suggests their origins.
Which of the nine or so "orthodox" schismatics was founded by Christ?
@@Mygoalwogel there seems to be a misconception in the orthodox themselves that their church has been unchanged since 33AD at pentecost, maybe they are blind to history but the church until 3rd century AD was not icon or image based, even Origen in his defense against Celsum states "It is in consideration of these and many other such commands, that they not only avoid temples, altars, and images, but are ready to suffer death when it is necessary, rather than debase by any such impiety the conception which they have of the Most High God." Contra Celsum Book 7 Chapter 64
Theosis is not interesting, its salvation.
We have the saints and fathers. We have true miracle and thus Holy Spirit. We have apostolic reaching. We have the priesthood. We don't inovate and have abide from Christ.
Where did you exist, less than 200 yrs.
You don't innovate? You Nikonites put Old Believers in prison and excommunicated them for refusing your liturgical innovation.
@@Mygoalwogel if we don't seek to understand God, we would remain Jewish and deny the divinity of Christ and trinity of God.
@@Dlee-eo5vv
D: _” We don't inovate and have abide from Christ.”_
M: You don't innovate? You Nikonites put Old Believers in prison and excommunicated them for refusing your liturgical innovation.
D: *No follow-up.*
M: Are you conceding the point?
D: _”if we don't seek to understand God, we would remain Jewish”_
M: Funny, that’s the exact opposite of what St. Paul and Isaiah say in Rom 10:20. ““I have been found by those who did not seek me; I have shown myself to those who did not ask for me.” St. Paul explains in Rom 9 and 10 that it is GOD who seeks US and not as you say. “What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith!”
D: _”and deny the divinity of Christ and trinity of God.”_
M: Nonsense. The divinity of Christ and the trinity of God are from the beginning of the faith. Councils did not invent them but only articulated them. Or do you suppose there was a time when Arianism was the true religion and the Councils changed that?
@@Mygoalwogel why are you such a hate filled idiot. If I didn't answer you, it's because some deviants don't deserve any attention.
@@Dlee-eo5vv It is you Nikonites who hated the Old Believers, said that liturgical innovations were "necessary for salvation", arrested them and put them to death.
The Church Fathers held to the hierarchy in of the Church, this can be seen as early as 90AD by St Ignatius of Antioch (the date may have been a bit later, but the point stands). Same can be said about every other doctrines RCs and EOs believe in.
The Lutheran church has episcopal
structure. It's other protestant churches who have non hierarchy structure
So when the Papists and the Orthodox disagree, who's actually correct and how do you know?
I only become divine in having to act on superhuman laws. The agony of being human and having to act in ways that are cruelly not means I don't want to get divine. Shudder
So, basically, the Lutheran Church is condemning the use of Tradition in the Catholic Church but, is essentially subscribing to it in subtle ways.... Ooh, okay then...
They do not condemn tradition. They condemn the misuse of tradition to lead people toward idols.
Praying for you to come to the Truth of Orthodoxy, heretic. God bless!
The True Orthodox church is a Greek/Ukrainian Old Calendarist communion. Do you mean them? But both Greek Orthodox churches are in schism from Russian churches since 2018. So maybe you mean Russian Orthodox Old-Rite Church, Russian Old-Orthodox Church, Pomorian Old-Orthodox Church. The largest Russian church that calls itself Orthodox is actually Nikonite. Nikon I said that his liturgical reformation was "necessary for salvation," causing all real believers to separate. Nikon I then asked the Czar to arrest and execute Old Believers, which he was happy to do. The largest Greek Orthodox church behaved similarly, arresting Old Calendarists and watching them die in prison.
But you clearly have too strong a conscience to be in fellowship with Nikonites. That narrows it down to Oriental Orthodox, Syrian Church of the East, Assyrian Church of the East, Chaldean Church of the East. I have a lot of respect for them. The Church of the East was the first church to take international missions fully seriously, converting even thousands of Chinese. But then Chinese and Islamic persecution raptured the vast majority of them to the bosom of Abraham. The Orental Orthodox Church stuck to their guns theologically. More than a thousand years after domineering popes and patriarchs excommunicated them, oops, both the Papists and Nikonites realize Miaphysitism is practically indistinguishable from Chalcedonianism.
Well, Christ loves the Heterodox, let him deal with them and hold your poision filled tongue
@@cameron4339 What? I pray for all heretics to see the error of their ways and repent. That is Love
@@cheeseface6328 indeed, but flat out saying stuff like that is kinda like throwing sand in their eyes, why would they want to listen to anyone if the just call them a heritic all the time?
@@cheeseface6328 do you have any recommendations - Orthodox Bible or books you suggest for someone wanting to learn about the faith, thank you
You hold to the Filioque? Ok that just makes no sense then.
the difference is that the Orthodox church and the Roman Catholic church is a church founded by Jesus Himself, Protestant churches whether it is Lutheranism or Calvinism and the remaining 35,000 denominations were invented and founded by man.
Simple. One has Apostolic Authority the other hasn’t.
You did not have apostolic authority to say that the new liturgy is "necessary for salvation" and put Old Believers to death. You are not apostolic orthodoxy. You are Nikonites.
Was Apostolic Authority maintained when the byzantine emperors and ottoman sultans appointed patriarchs, in the case of the Ottoman sultans killed the patriarchs who didnt do their appointed agenda (may those martyrs be held dear in Heaven though)
മാർട്ടിൻ ലൂഥർ കിംഗ് ജൂനിയർ
സൈനബ താത്തയുടെ മലദ്വാരം