Great videos John! For the past 40 years I’ve worked in a composite facility for a major aerospace company as a Nondestructive Testing Technician specifically Ultrasonic and Radiographic testing so I really nerd out on paddle technology as well. Your terminology depicting current materials and associated anomalies is spot on! Great work
I have always thought John must have an engineering background with how detailed his methodology is with these deep dives on construction/materials used.
Hi Russell. I would be interested in your thoughts about the new USAPA ultrasonic testing machine they are using at pro tournaments to test for "delamination". Firstly, the test seems to be focusing on other characteristics beyond delamination - namely core structure/integrity/debonding. The test seems to be based on a differential - calibrating the machine at the throat of the paddle to 0 and then measuring across the face of the paddle. Could differences in the compaction of the core across the face due to the thermoforming process be providing false negative results in relation to core compaction versus core failure/cracks/debonding? For example the throat maybe more compacted than say the middle of the paddle - and that may result in a differential which may fail their parameters but the paddle is perfectly fine and not defective.
Hello Dale, my knowledge of the testing procedure USAPA has implemented is limited. However I believe they are using the BondMaster with the pitch/catch probe to inspect the paddles. A red flag for me is you stated they are standardizing the BondMaster at the neck of the paddle under evaluation. In my practice your inspection technique is only as good as the reference standard your calibrating the test equipment to. If your setting up on a unknown standard (paddle neck) you really don’t know if it’s good or bad from the start thus leading to in accurate test data. You must calibrate the equipment to a known reference standard with a proven good area and a type of anomaly (disbond) built into the standard so you can confidently see the difference between the two and once calibration/standardization is complete then you can inspect/evaluate the suspect paddle. Also the BondMaster works okay for disbond detection but crushed core in my opinion is not reliable. Radiography is best for crushed core but obviously not practical to implement onsite at PPA events.
Mind blown!!!! I can't believe that weave is just an embossing! I have been so deceived! I am shocked an embossing can get that kind of detail! Thank you so much for the education!
Johnny Kew, great detailed video as always. Someone is finally bringing this information to the masses. I think a lot of us in the know have been aware of peelply being the actual “grit” of RCF. One note, I think the “secret sauce” has always been the number of face (non-structural) layers each brand brings. I am pretty sure I remember early on that Chris @ Legacy said they used 4 layers of unidirectional carbon fiber on top of the thermoformed structural carbon fiber. The characteristics of those layers would make the paddle perform differently. I know Dong @ Ronbus has been testing 8k CF in his xPro program and it imparts a different feel than “T700” (intentionally in quotes). Keep up the good work. No one else has taken the time and effort to do what you have done. Bravo! Us paddle nerds thank you!!❤
John, keep up the excellent work. Your reviews and explanations are precise and backed by facts and science. None of the hyperbole sales pitch that some other reviewers succumb to for commercial gains. I have unsubscribed from many such channels with yours topping the remaining credible ones. So well done, and bravo
I would like to see the Legacy Pro dissected. My my understanding is that it uses 2 8mm honeycomb cores to achieve an overall 16mm core. I wonder how two core layers add to stiffness and "core crush" vs one 16mm core.
Great video, very informative. Especially about core crushing vs. actual delamination. As a follow up I think it would be worth doing a deep dive into core materials. I'm NOT talking about wood vs. aluminum vs. nomex vs. polypropylene, cuz that info is readily available. I'm talking specifically about the differences in the polypropylene honeycomb cores used by different manufacturers. I have a theory that not all of these cores are made the same with regard to cell size, wall thickness (of each cell) and thus durability. I've core crushed 2 Vatic v7 paddles already, each lasting about 4 to 6 months playing 3 to 4 times per week. I'm not certain exactly when the cores broke down. Is that the normal lifespan of a thermoformed paddle? Or are there certain brands with stronger cores that can hold up longer? Keep up the great work on these videos!
Absolutely love this pair of videos and nerded out just like you did. Your videos are always so well made and really a thing of joy to take in. Keep making this wonderful content John!!
I had always felt the term "Delamination" was Not appropriate for what was really going on! Thanks for the insight and technical information regarding what appears to be the real reason and actual "name" to call it! Excellent video!
great video! I bet your childhood like mine was filled with "How it's Made" episodes. :-) I hear the Vatic Flash is somewhat of a hybrid between Gen 1 and Gen 2 paddles. They say it's a cold press, but not sure where they fell in the mix. Keep up the paddle nerd videos!
Great video! On another note, the Titan (sub that imploded near the Titanic) also had issues with its carbon fiber surface. The OceanGate whistleblower was "repeatedly told that no scan of the hull or Bond Line could be done to check for delaminations, porosity and voids of sufficient adhesion of the glue being used due to the thickness of the hull". Sound familiar?
Thank you John for all the time and effort you've put into this 2 part series. I still am confused why EVA can't get approval. This would eliminate this whole polypro core crap. The faster speeds issue could be solved with a ball change. May even give some extra life to paddles coming appart in 3-6 months.
Assume "ball change" would mean softer? A softer ball won't bounce well. This is what I dislike about "indoor" balls. I think having two ball types is dumb.
Well done, John. Let's talk regarding EVA - it's been used for some time in several paddles. It was never explicitly disallowed, as long as the total 'system' (core plus facial plies) passed deflection tests.
Great explanation on what happens to in between paddle surfaces during manufacturing & playing. Maybe some day a strung racket ball racket will be legal🤣
The surface texture material (cloth quality) certainly contributes to the longevity of the paddle face material. The cloth/impreg epoxy contributes to the pressed surface texture. The underlying strength is the determined by the cloth quality/strength. For example, you could create/press a textured peel ply surface on a sheet of cardboard and epoxy - and you can imagine it will not last long banging balls. A lower quality carbon cloth will breakdown faster than a quality carbon cloth. The issue of companies using cheap Chinese carbon cloth and marketing it as Toray is another issue. And verification/validation of materials used by companies is something that should be looked at.
I'm guessing the resin imparted by the peel ply is on the order of a few mils thick (25.4 microns per mil for the metric world)? So makes sense the entire fiber/resin layup/matrix would be subject to wearing forces. BTW, loving my Double Black Diamond 16mm.
John can you check the thickness (cell wall) of the honey comb of these paddles? I am interested to see if there are any differences between manufacturers.
John, I'm not into paddle ball, but I did love your amazing cover of Invincible on your other channel. I assumed you no longer monitor the comments there based on its activity. Any chance you are working on other covers like Pnuema?
If I’m understanding your explanation, the paddle face that contact with the ball is embossed epoxy…right? If so, shouldn’t we be more concerned about the durability of the epoxy?
This is exactly my question. What is the ball hitting? Is it embossed epoxy only that creates the basket weave pattern on the paddle face while the underlying carbon fibers remain straight or are the underlying carbon fibers also deformed during the peel ply process?
Excellent study, 95% of the paddle consists of core material. Polymer stability is highly related to production metrics, I can make polypropylene in my basement but if Dow Chem makes it, they will be vastly different in quality. I have seen one or two paddle makers state a brand name for their PP honeycomb, thats it. Big picture wise, I would be more concerned with the PP core than a thin carbon fiber layer, as you found here the core polypropylene stability is key to the paddle quality. It is a core and carbon fiber with a handle , there are not alot of choices about what can go wrong, assembly or material defects.
John, you do a great job. In regards to spin degradation my understanding is that their is spray on that is worthless, peel ply, and etched surface. How would you compare the last two. Do you think the peel ply paddles will retain their spin and are there anything to look for on peel ply technology. Is Gearbox an etched paddle versus peel ply. Thanks
Great video. I really enjoyed it. I was wondering what is the max serve speed a Pickleball could be hit at? I noticed that most of the paddles you tested for serve speed were between 50 and 55 mph but the illegal paddles and the delaminated 6.0 Blk Diamond were 10 percent faster. Is 60 mph the top speed possible or is there the potential for higher speeds? How much spin do you need to impart on the ball to keep a ball hit at that speed in the court?
I'm sure there's room for higher speeds on serves, but nowhere near tennis speed. You really have to hit it hard to get >50mph. Looking at the pros, I'd estimate most serves are around 50 mph or less, and the biggest servers (Dekel Bar) sometimes get up around 60 mph.
How hard do you have to squeeze between your fingers for the delamination/core crush test? I hear a very small amount crinkle but only a little for ~80% of my finger strength.
Wow, so instead of a woven prepreg there were multiple layers of unidirectional prepreg! What a peel ply fakeout. Way to move PB tech knowledge forward! I'd guess Selkirk's "12K" reference is to tow ribbons/strips in a woven prepreg (12,000 fibers per strip). Head has one of the most reknown tennis racquet R&D centers. In this video, they refer to Toray and Mitsubishi as two of the leading carbon fiber suppliers - ua-cam.com/video/n62fqfBUuIY/v-deo.html. Wild guess about debonding ... the prepreg can be cured at a higher temp for a shorter time, or a lower temp for a longer time. If Toray's temp/cure-time guidelines aren't followed, the resin may not cure as well as you'd like. Perhaps initially the factories were rushing production and using short cure times (they couldn't raise the cure temp too high without damaging the polypropylene core) which resulted in the prepreg resin not fully curing on the core side. If true, one solution would be to increase the cure time at the expense of production rates. I wonder if that's what SixZero did since the founder said he was having extra molds made. Also a guess ... if that's true, an aramid core could tolerate higher cure temps so allow cure times to be relatively shorter, increasing production throughput. I noticed the Rock West video ... I worked for them one summer but not in the composites division.
Given this info on the true nature of raw carbon fiber paddle faces, what are your thoughts about using the rubber erasers across the face? Could this damage the face over time?
@@johnkewpickleballI erase my paddles daily which visually looks very clean while I’ve seen friends paddles that were not erased as much and when I asked them if I could erase them they definitely did not clean up as well as mine, they still looked somewhat dirty.
I think if you are getting the dirt off of the surface of your paddle, it will prolong the life of your paddle. Think about leaving all that dirt and grit to act as an abrasive every time you strike a ball. I have been using the CRBN eraser on my January batch Legacy Pro ever since John Kew did his microscope review. I clean it rubbing lightly at the end of each play session (3 to 4 time per week, 2 to 3 hours of play each session). It would be interesting to compare new paddle under a microscope to mine that has been used and cleaned regularly.
@@GameKartParty That's a good point about the grit. I suppose it depends on your court conditions, too. It would make more sense to clean more regularly if your courts have a lot of dust.
@@lesterma1608 probably cuz very fine sand is embedded from not cleaning. all those hits on balls the sand gets "hammered" in. being a golfer i know that sand is the enemy to your wedge life....think of it as sandpaper. although using the eraser would likely do the same as rubbing the fine sand along the carbon face.
so it looks like we are being duped into what these paddles are actually made of....an embossed pattern to "look" like carbon fiber....hmmm, seems like we are getting suckered into buying a better product and paying for higher grade materials when in fact, they are imposters....i know there is a difference in feel between a 250 and 100 dollar paddle but it's not because of "more" carbon fiber in it
@@markdoehrman5134 Gearbox fan here. Never hear of these problems. The feel is for sure different than what's being called "Raw Carbon" Once you get used to that, the choice is easy to make. Gearbox for Life.
Great videos John! For the past 40 years I’ve worked in a composite facility for a major aerospace company as a Nondestructive Testing Technician specifically Ultrasonic and Radiographic testing so I really nerd out on paddle technology as well. Your terminology depicting current materials and associated anomalies is spot on! Great work
I have always thought John must have an engineering background with how detailed his methodology is with these deep dives on construction/materials used.
Hi Russell. I would be interested in your thoughts about the new USAPA ultrasonic testing machine they are using at pro tournaments to test for "delamination". Firstly, the test seems to be focusing on other characteristics beyond delamination - namely core structure/integrity/debonding. The test seems to be based on a differential - calibrating the machine at the throat of the paddle to 0 and then measuring across the face of the paddle. Could differences in the compaction of the core across the face due to the thermoforming process be providing false negative results in relation to core compaction versus core failure/cracks/debonding? For example the throat maybe more compacted than say the middle of the paddle - and that may result in a differential which may fail their parameters but the paddle is perfectly fine and not defective.
Hello Dale, my knowledge of the testing procedure USAPA has implemented is limited. However I believe they are using the BondMaster with the pitch/catch probe to inspect the paddles. A red flag for me is you stated they are standardizing the BondMaster at the neck of the paddle under evaluation. In my practice your inspection technique is only as good as the reference standard your calibrating the test equipment to. If your setting up on a unknown standard (paddle neck) you really don’t know if it’s good or bad from the start thus leading to in accurate test data. You must calibrate the equipment to a known reference standard with a proven good area and a type of anomaly (disbond) built into the standard so you can confidently see the difference between the two and once calibration/standardization is complete then you can inspect/evaluate the suspect paddle. Also the BondMaster works okay for disbond detection but crushed core in my opinion is not reliable. Radiography is best for crushed core but obviously not practical to implement onsite at PPA events.
Mind blown!!!!
I can't believe that weave is just an embossing! I have been so deceived!
I am shocked an embossing can get that kind of detail!
Thank you so much for the education!
Johnny Kew, great detailed video as always. Someone is finally bringing this information to the masses. I think a lot of us in the know have been aware of peelply being the actual “grit” of RCF. One note, I think the “secret sauce” has always been the number of face (non-structural) layers each brand brings. I am pretty sure I remember early on that Chris @ Legacy said they used 4 layers of unidirectional carbon fiber on top of the thermoformed structural carbon fiber. The characteristics of those layers would make the paddle perform differently. I know Dong @ Ronbus has been testing 8k CF in his xPro program and it imparts a different feel than “T700” (intentionally in quotes). Keep up the good work. No one else has taken the time and effort to do what you have done. Bravo! Us paddle nerds thank you!!❤
John, keep up the excellent work. Your reviews and explanations are precise and backed by facts and science. None of the hyperbole sales pitch that some other reviewers succumb to for commercial gains. I have unsubscribed from many such channels with yours topping the remaining credible ones. So well done, and bravo
I would like to see the Legacy Pro dissected. My my understanding is that it uses 2 8mm honeycomb cores to achieve an overall 16mm core. I wonder how two core layers add to stiffness and "core crush" vs one 16mm core.
Excellent research and delivery Jon.
Excellent video, John.
Didn't expect a late-night Part 2 post!! But timing was perfect as I watched the 1st part earlier today
So interesting, thanks for your clear explanation of this issue!
Great video, very informative. Especially about core crushing vs. actual delamination. As a follow up I think it would be worth doing a deep dive into core materials. I'm NOT talking about wood vs. aluminum vs. nomex vs. polypropylene, cuz that info is readily available. I'm talking specifically about the differences in the polypropylene honeycomb cores used by different manufacturers. I have a theory that not all of these cores are made the same with regard to cell size, wall thickness (of each cell) and thus durability. I've core crushed 2 Vatic v7 paddles already, each lasting about 4 to 6 months playing 3 to 4 times per week. I'm not certain exactly when the cores broke down. Is that the normal lifespan of a thermoformed paddle? Or are there certain brands with stronger cores that can hold up longer? Keep up the great work on these videos!
Absolutely love this pair of videos and nerded out just like you did. Your videos are always so well made and really a thing of joy to take in. Keep making this wonderful content John!!
Thank you!
Amazing 2 part series John, thanks so much from a fellow Pickleball Nerd!
Cant wait for that review video on the Bread & Butter paddle.
Outstanding info. That was quite a ride.
Excellent information & presentation. Thank you!
I had always felt the term "Delamination" was Not appropriate for what was really going on! Thanks for the insight and technical information regarding what appears to be the real reason and actual "name" to call it! Excellent video!
Good video as usual John!
Thanks, man!
Great to hear you’re back at it
great video! I bet your childhood like mine was filled with "How it's Made" episodes. :-) I hear the Vatic Flash is somewhat of a hybrid between Gen 1 and Gen 2 paddles. They say it's a cold press, but not sure where they fell in the mix. Keep up the paddle nerd videos!
Wow. Great vid. No bs.
Great video! On another note, the Titan (sub that imploded near the Titanic) also had issues with its carbon fiber surface. The OceanGate whistleblower was "repeatedly told that no scan of the hull or Bond Line could be done to check for delaminations, porosity and voids of sufficient adhesion of the glue being used due to the thickness of the hull". Sound familiar?
Interesting - I hadn't heard that, thanks
great insights and analysis.
Outstanding, thanks John.
Thank you John for all the time and effort you've put into this 2 part series. I still am confused why EVA can't get approval. This would eliminate this whole polypro core crap. The faster speeds issue could be solved with a ball change. May even give some extra life to paddles coming appart in 3-6 months.
Good point. It would also solve the noise issue.
Assume "ball change" would mean softer? A softer ball won't bounce well. This is what I dislike about "indoor" balls. I think having two ball types is dumb.
Well done, John. Let's talk regarding EVA - it's been used for some time in several paddles. It was never explicitly disallowed, as long as the total 'system' (core plus facial plies) passed deflection tests.
Great video.
Great Investigation and RCA - Thanx!
Great explanation on what happens to in between paddle surfaces during manufacturing & playing. Maybe some day a strung racket ball racket will be legal🤣
The surface texture material (cloth quality) certainly contributes to the longevity of the paddle face material. The cloth/impreg epoxy contributes to the pressed surface texture. The underlying strength is the determined by the cloth quality/strength. For example, you could create/press a textured peel ply surface on a sheet of cardboard and epoxy - and you can imagine it will not last long banging balls. A lower quality carbon cloth will breakdown faster than a quality carbon cloth. The issue of companies using cheap Chinese carbon cloth and marketing it as Toray is another issue. And verification/validation of materials used by companies is something that should be looked at.
I'm guessing the resin imparted by the peel ply is on the order of a few mils thick (25.4 microns per mil for the metric world)? So makes sense the entire fiber/resin layup/matrix would be subject to wearing forces. BTW, loving my Double Black Diamond 16mm.
John can you check the thickness (cell wall) of the honey comb of these paddles? I am interested to see if there are any differences between manufacturers.
I am definitely a huge paddle nerd
John, I'm not into paddle ball, but I did love your amazing cover of Invincible on your other channel. I assumed you no longer monitor the comments there based on its activity. Any chance you are working on other covers like Pnuema?
Hey! I’ll eventually work my way back around to recording something new. Thanks for checking in 🤘
If I’m understanding your explanation, the paddle face that contact with the ball is embossed epoxy…right? If so, shouldn’t we be more concerned about the durability of the epoxy?
This is exactly my question. What is the ball hitting? Is it embossed epoxy only that creates the basket weave pattern on the paddle face while the underlying carbon fibers remain straight or are the underlying carbon fibers also deformed during the peel ply process?
Excellent study, 95% of the paddle consists of core material. Polymer stability is highly related to production metrics, I can make polypropylene in my basement but if Dow Chem makes it, they will be vastly different in quality. I have seen one or two paddle makers state a brand name for their PP honeycomb, thats it. Big picture wise, I would be more concerned with the PP core than a thin carbon fiber layer, as you found here the core polypropylene stability is key to the paddle quality. It is a core and carbon fiber with a handle , there are not alot of choices about what can go wrong, assembly or material defects.
John, you do a great job. In regards to spin degradation my understanding is that their is spray on that is worthless, peel ply, and etched surface. How would you compare the last two. Do you think the peel ply paddles will retain their spin and are there anything to look for on peel ply technology. Is Gearbox an etched paddle versus peel ply. Thanks
Great video. I really enjoyed it. I was wondering what is the max serve speed a Pickleball could be hit at? I noticed that most of the paddles you tested for serve speed were between 50 and 55 mph but the illegal paddles and the delaminated 6.0 Blk Diamond were 10 percent faster. Is 60 mph the top speed possible or is there the potential for higher speeds? How much spin do you need to impart on the ball to keep a ball hit at that speed in the court?
I'm sure there's room for higher speeds on serves, but nowhere near tennis speed. You really have to hit it hard to get >50mph. Looking at the pros, I'd estimate most serves are around 50 mph or less, and the biggest servers (Dekel Bar) sometimes get up around 60 mph.
John, what makes a 16mm "power" paddle and a 16mm "control" paddle different? What makes power over control? Thanks
Just the surface - the power is raw fiberglass, and the control is raw carbon fiber.
Thanks for clarifying what raw carbon fiber really is
Is there a risk of core crushing from hitting the ball really hard over time (in regular play)? Just got a new Double Black 16
How hard do you have to squeeze between your fingers for the delamination/core crush test? I hear a very small amount crinkle but only a little for ~80% of my finger strength.
When the core is really compromised, it doesn't take much - probably 50% strength.
Wow, so instead of a woven prepreg there were multiple layers of unidirectional prepreg! What a peel ply fakeout. Way to move PB tech knowledge forward! I'd guess Selkirk's "12K" reference is to tow ribbons/strips in a woven prepreg (12,000 fibers per strip). Head has one of the most reknown tennis racquet R&D centers. In this video, they refer to Toray and Mitsubishi as two of the leading carbon fiber suppliers - ua-cam.com/video/n62fqfBUuIY/v-deo.html. Wild guess about debonding ... the prepreg can be cured at a higher temp for a shorter time, or a lower temp for a longer time. If Toray's temp/cure-time guidelines aren't followed, the resin may not cure as well as you'd like. Perhaps initially the factories were rushing production and using short cure times (they couldn't raise the cure temp too high without damaging the polypropylene core) which resulted in the prepreg resin not fully curing on the core side. If true, one solution would be to increase the cure time at the expense of production rates. I wonder if that's what SixZero did since the founder said he was having extra molds made. Also a guess ... if that's true, an aramid core could tolerate higher cure temps so allow cure times to be relatively shorter, increasing production throughput. I noticed the Rock West video ... I worked for them one summer but not in the composites division.
Thanks for the link to the Head tennis racket video. Very insightful for understanding carbon fiber.
That Head video is excellent - thanks for the link.
Think Cheetah is the only paddle using Aramid. I have one and like it a lot.
Given this info on the true nature of raw carbon fiber paddle faces, what are your thoughts about using the rubber erasers across the face? Could this damage the face over time?
I think the erasers should be safe, as long as they're not obsessively used. Once every few days, and I don't think there should be any worry.
@@johnkewpickleballI erase my paddles daily which visually looks very clean while I’ve seen friends paddles that were not erased as much and when I asked them if I could erase them they definitely did not clean up as well as mine, they still looked somewhat dirty.
I think if you are getting the dirt off of the surface of your paddle, it will prolong the life of your paddle. Think about leaving all that dirt and grit to act as an abrasive every time you strike a ball.
I have been using the CRBN eraser on my January batch Legacy Pro ever since John Kew did his microscope review. I clean it rubbing lightly at the end of each play session (3 to 4 time per week, 2 to 3 hours of play each session). It would be interesting to compare new paddle under a microscope to mine that has been used and cleaned regularly.
@@GameKartParty That's a good point about the grit. I suppose it depends on your court conditions, too. It would make more sense to clean more regularly if your courts have a lot of dust.
@@lesterma1608 probably cuz very fine sand is embedded from not cleaning. all those hits on balls the sand gets "hammered" in. being a golfer i know that sand is the enemy to your wedge life....think of it as sandpaper. although using the eraser would likely do the same as rubbing the fine sand along the carbon face.
so it looks like we are being duped into what these paddles are actually made of....an embossed pattern to "look" like carbon fiber....hmmm, seems like we are getting suckered into buying a better product and paying for higher grade materials when in fact, they are imposters....i know there is a difference in feel between a 250 and 100 dollar paddle but it's not because of "more" carbon fiber in it
Maybe not duped with Gearbox?
@@markdoehrman5134 Gearbox fan here. Never hear of these problems. The feel is for sure different than what's being called "Raw Carbon" Once you get used to that, the choice is easy to make. Gearbox for Life.
👍👍😎🙏
Core-ruption....
Paddle Autopsy video was not very informative. No mention of Joola, Selkirk, seems to pick on Six Zero and Rombus. I was totally bored!