Framework is going to sell refurbished laptops in the future (they have the page but nothing on it) so that will be a massive win for reducing e-waste.
I am glad I bumped into this video. Typing this on an 8 year old dell and I use it for work. We need to make things reusable and I hope companies build frameworks around this.
Ultimately laptops are less repairable because of consumer purchasing decisions. In the last 10 years or so consumers have gravitated towards smaller and lighter laptops and they are also more price sensitive (and the segment of the market that want more power etc, probably go for a gaming desktop anyway). In such a market using more integrated components gives a manufacturer an advantage and until mainstream consumers start prioritising repairability in their purchasing decisions or there is regulation from a major market (such as the EU) I doubt things will change much.
That's actually BS. They chose to make them harder to repair. Framework demonstrates that it's absolutely possible to make a beautiful thin and light also repairable and upgradable.
@@MrGamelover23 Consumers for the most part - don't know what they want - I can tell you what we have now compared to what we had - I want what we had - the concepts where more about functionality. I know I want something where form follows function. I speak for most when I say that
Great video Ryan - I am a LTT viewer (but agree with your concerns about the changes in content on that channel) and I thoroughly enjoyed your video here, excellent coverage on Framework and very straightforward, logical explanation as to why we all should reign in our consumerist tendencies towards tech. My 5 year old ASUS Strix GL753VD (now booting up lightning fast thanks to a SSD upgrade and 32GB of DDR 4 RAM) thanks you for your support of old machines that don't need to die! 😁
I'm very much one of those 'Make do' sort of people, and I'm glad I went with a Thinkpad T440p. The modular design has allowed me to spend less (not counting a complete main board replacement when it got fried) improving and upgrading it- It went from an i5 struggling to edit audio to an i7 that's snappy and handles my work like its nothing. To some it's a bit of a sunk cost fallacy spending time to upgrade an old machine, but it's built well, has plenty of ports even without its dock and it's just good to get familiar with hardware. I recently had my Nintendo Switch die and sadly it was more cost effective to get a replacement from Nintendo rather than taking it to a repair shop for the component level repair it would've needed. The world needs more easily serviceable electronics, period.
I only bought my Framework once my "nice" laptop (first laptop I ever got with a performant processor in it, Ryzen 7) died of an integrated RAM failure. I plan on getting a Framework 16 so that I can give my girlfriend my 13 (her Chromebook is in baaaad shape, but she's committed to using it until it dies, I love the environmental science major in her). Do I have to get a brand new 16? No. Do I want it because "shiny new thing"? Probably. But I like the proposed feature set of the 16, and I want to support the company. If I wanted the shiniest, newest thing, I'd get an M1 but I don't because I hate Apple's guts. I also think it's important to show support towards companies that are taking conscious efforts towards repairability in laptops targeted towards a more general audience. "Voting with your wallet" almost seems like the only way to vote with these kinds of things, unfortunately.
I was thinking about buying a new laptop. I bought a refurbished 2017 macbook air laptop... Then, I read about how Apple stops updating older Macs.... From what I recall it is 7 years, so the computer works be useless by 2024... In 2 years at close to $400 dollars. I sent that thing back. I do believe it; since my mint condition iPad is no longer able to download apps, since I need the newest software.... And apparently, my iPad doesn't support it. After that, I was looking at the new Mac... Exorbitant price, and non expandable ram or SSD... You know, the classic Apple message of "storage is full". Then, I came the knowledge of the used ThinkPad. And I learned about modifications. Later on, I encountered gaming pcs, and gaming laptops... And how they are modifiable.... My thought process, basically Thinkpads. Then, I remember how my local store carries gaming PCS, and gaming laptops. The ones they carry are MSI, but I'm going to another store to see if they carry Alienware laptops. What I find the most appealing is how they have similar specs as the new Mac, yet they are on the 16+ gb ram range, and 1+ terabyte range SSD capacity at basically 75% less than the price of a Mac with the "highest" ram and SSD range. So now, I will safe money and hopefully buy a 100% serviceable and upgradable gaming laptop; I don't game, but I just needed for regular work, and I don't want to toss it on the garbage because repairs (Apple) are astronomical, or because the laptop got to old to receive new updates.
My last "FrameWork" Laptop : lenovo ThinkPad T440p, you can Upgrade : - CPU from i3 dual core to i7 Quad Core - RAM from 4 GB to maxout 16 GB, - HDD to SSD - DVD drive to SSD / HDD storage with caddy - WWAN Card to SSD - 6 Cell Battery to 9 Cell Battery ETC
Great insight! I got a MacBook 2012 from the dumpster. Dropped 16gb RAM and SSD, patched it up to the latest OS using OCLP and it feels like a modern machine. I also have another amazing laptop- A Dell from 2018 I bought off eBay. Both computers have been saved from ewaste and both run perfectly!
Who needs to repair a wifi card? Just get one of those little USB units that look like a bluetooth mouse USB, no larger. I have one and it's as fast as my wifi router can dish out. Easy-peasy, done deal. My wifi card went out on my lappie, got one of those, no worries now.
My last laptop was a T530 Thinkpad, it works amazing, and I only had to sell it because of its 3kg weight (2.7kg + 300 gr 110w charger), I bought another used Thinkpad, this time L380 Yoga. It works great, although Lenovo uses a paper thin copper heatsink, and my processor throttle like hell, thermal repasting, some extra rubber feet to increase the air intake + Throttlestop, and voila, it works better than most laptop at its price (around 300USD)
I agree buying used is more impactful, for that 1 purchase. Although Buying a framework also funds that company which will cause more future laptops to be more reparable. So you can argue by not buying used and buying new in a company that needs sales you are actually having a more beneficial impact. I am not saying that is the case, just you can argue it is. Eventually the 8 year old laptop will be what is on the market today, so maybe make as many of those be frameworks as possible.
the problem with all computers is the tech always changes and as a result while frameworks are cool and I will probably be getting one the thing is by the time I have to change everything out sure I can make a coool mini pc but if its so out of date who would? This is the same for desktop computers to the main thing your changeing is the graphics card as a gamer and after enough years that CPU and RAM will also kick the can and your again back to buying whole new system. whats nice about the framework although a bit pricey is if 1 thing breaks you can repair it with ease similar to that of a desktop but replacing the board for a new one will be a rare occurance as by the time the board needs to be replaced so does the ram so does everything that plugs into it.. Its an issue the tech industry cant really solve because we dont have a standard outside of like atx, micro atx etc the square will still not fit into a triangle its just what happens. so the appeal of the framework is user friendly repairability and customization, not so much upgradeability. and hopefully framework realizes that as thats the only way they stay profitable. sure you can maybe upgrade 1 part in a few years but eventually you may as well just get a new laptop because your just putting new pieces into the same more then likely scraped up chasis.
HP Elitebook G8 & G9 series are great for changing their RAM and SSD. Also, the BIOS are easy to adjust. The Microsoft Surface Pro series, M1 MacBook Pro/Air, and Lenovo ThinkPad series seem to dominate the durability & quality build aspect nowadays. However, they cannot be fixed easily. If you get a lemon, you might as well buy a new one.
Actually, for the user there is a massive benefit to having everything soldered together: battery life and power efficiency. Currently, it will be impossible to create a product as powerful as Apple silicon with the same battery life and power efficiency as apple silicon if it's repairable and modular. Unfortunately, sockets are incredibly inefficient and wasteful. That's why low-powered RAM under the LPDDR spec can use like a fifth of the energy of standard socketed RAM. It's a bitch, but there's nothing we can do about it unless we can somehow change the laws of physics.
if soldered mainboards are designed to not break if you accidentialy bridge the connectors with small moisture, or easier to reason the layout and resolder the parts, and parts that are not crucial to security are not paired with serial code, i can support it. apple is the other way around that and the main reason it can be "power efficient" is because if you add safety measures around it costs power and any condititon less than laboratory will kill it early
@@theryanthomas I think we're at the point now where we're hitting physical limits with memory modules - the actual distance to the CPU makes a huge difference in what timings can be reliably hit. To my knowledge, socketed LPDDR5 is capped at around 5600MT, while soldered can go to 7200MT. Dell have designed a new memory module system which might alleviate this a bit, but there realistically will always be a performance compromise to socketed memory (though in my opinion, it's worth it for the upgradability and repairability)
I wouldn't call a Framework laptop "high-end" as he does. But they probably are worth the money I'd say. I don't own one because I hope they eventually come out with a larger sized one. I don't like tiny screens very much. They only have the 13 inch diagonal tiny screens.
I'm not a tech guy, but I just need a computer that doesn't start to seriously slow down after two years. Anyone 5 years in on a laptop that's still working well?
Framework is going to sell refurbished laptops in the future (they have the page but nothing on it) so that will be a massive win for reducing e-waste.
As an update, they've started doing it in several countries !
I am glad I bumped into this video. Typing this on an 8 year old dell and I use it for work. We need to make things reusable and I hope companies build frameworks around this.
Ultimately laptops are less repairable because of consumer purchasing decisions. In the last 10 years or so consumers have gravitated towards smaller and lighter laptops and they are also more price sensitive (and the segment of the market that want more power etc, probably go for a gaming desktop anyway). In such a market using more integrated components gives a manufacturer an advantage and until mainstream consumers start prioritising repairability in their purchasing decisions or there is regulation from a major market (such as the EU) I doubt things will change much.
We didn’t go towards them. It’s what’s being sold as latest and state of the art.
That's actually BS. They chose to make them harder to repair. Framework demonstrates that it's absolutely possible to make a beautiful thin and light also repairable and upgradable.
@@MrGamelover23 Consumers for the most part - don't know what they want - I can tell you what we have now compared to what we had - I want what we had - the concepts where more about functionality. I know I want something where form follows function. I speak for most when I say that
I am glad that even cheap gaming laptops are still very modular and easily servicable and repairable!
My zephyrus g14 (2021) is amazing for it's portability, and repairability (wifi, SSD, and ram are upgradeable)
@@corey7219 but the CPU and GPU aren't. That's why framework is fantastic.
Great video Ryan - I am a LTT viewer (but agree with your concerns about the changes in content on that channel) and I thoroughly enjoyed your video here, excellent coverage on Framework and very straightforward, logical explanation as to why we all should reign in our consumerist tendencies towards tech. My 5 year old ASUS Strix GL753VD (now booting up lightning fast thanks to a SSD upgrade and 32GB of DDR 4 RAM) thanks you for your support of old machines that don't need to die! 😁
I'm very much one of those 'Make do' sort of people, and I'm glad I went with a Thinkpad T440p. The modular design has allowed me to spend less (not counting a complete main board replacement when it got fried) improving and upgrading it- It went from an i5 struggling to edit audio to an i7 that's snappy and handles my work like its nothing.
To some it's a bit of a sunk cost fallacy spending time to upgrade an old machine, but it's built well, has plenty of ports even without its dock and it's just good to get familiar with hardware.
I recently had my Nintendo Switch die and sadly it was more cost effective to get a replacement from Nintendo rather than taking it to a repair shop for the component level repair it would've needed. The world needs more easily serviceable electronics, period.
I only bought my Framework once my "nice" laptop (first laptop I ever got with a performant processor in it, Ryzen 7) died of an integrated RAM failure. I plan on getting a Framework 16 so that I can give my girlfriend my 13 (her Chromebook is in baaaad shape, but she's committed to using it until it dies, I love the environmental science major in her). Do I have to get a brand new 16? No. Do I want it because "shiny new thing"? Probably. But I like the proposed feature set of the 16, and I want to support the company. If I wanted the shiniest, newest thing, I'd get an M1 but I don't because I hate Apple's guts. I also think it's important to show support towards companies that are taking conscious efforts towards repairability in laptops targeted towards a more general audience. "Voting with your wallet" almost seems like the only way to vote with these kinds of things, unfortunately.
I was thinking about buying a new laptop. I bought a refurbished 2017 macbook air laptop... Then, I read about how Apple stops updating older Macs.... From what I recall it is 7 years, so the computer works be useless by 2024... In 2 years at close to $400 dollars. I sent that thing back.
I do believe it; since my mint condition iPad is no longer able to download apps, since I need the newest software.... And apparently, my iPad doesn't support it.
After that, I was looking at the new Mac... Exorbitant price, and non expandable ram or SSD... You know, the classic Apple message of "storage is full".
Then, I came the knowledge of the used ThinkPad. And I learned about modifications.
Later on, I encountered gaming pcs, and gaming laptops... And how they are modifiable.... My thought process, basically Thinkpads.
Then, I remember how my local store carries gaming PCS, and gaming laptops. The ones they carry are MSI, but I'm going to another store to see if they carry Alienware laptops.
What I find the most appealing is how they have similar specs as the new Mac, yet they are on the 16+ gb ram range, and 1+ terabyte range SSD capacity at basically 75% less than the price of a Mac with the "highest" ram and SSD range.
So now, I will safe money and hopefully buy a 100% serviceable and upgradable gaming laptop; I don't game, but I just needed for regular work, and I don't want to toss it on the garbage because repairs (Apple) are astronomical, or because the laptop got to old to receive new updates.
what did you decide on?
My last "FrameWork" Laptop :
lenovo ThinkPad T440p, you can Upgrade :
- CPU from i3 dual core to i7 Quad Core
- RAM from 4 GB to maxout 16 GB,
- HDD to SSD
- DVD drive to SSD / HDD storage with caddy
- WWAN Card to SSD
- 6 Cell Battery to 9 Cell Battery
ETC
Love this video, good info, good reminder to buy used if possible. Thank you!
Great insight! I got a MacBook 2012 from the dumpster. Dropped 16gb RAM and SSD, patched it up to the latest OS using OCLP and it feels like a modern machine.
I also have another amazing laptop- A Dell from 2018 I bought off eBay. Both computers have been saved from ewaste and both run perfectly!
9-12 months??? I disagree. If I just edit documents on a Chromebook or just browse the web, a Chromebook can last year's, at least 5 years
Who needs to repair a wifi card? Just get one of those little USB units that look like a bluetooth mouse USB, no larger. I have one and it's as fast as my wifi router can dish out. Easy-peasy, done deal. My wifi card went out on my lappie, got one of those, no worries now.
My last laptop was a T530 Thinkpad, it works amazing, and I only had to sell it because of its 3kg weight (2.7kg + 300 gr 110w charger), I bought another used Thinkpad, this time L380 Yoga. It works great, although Lenovo uses a paper thin copper heatsink, and my processor throttle like hell, thermal repasting, some extra rubber feet to increase the air intake + Throttlestop, and voila, it works better than most laptop at its price (around 300USD)
I agree buying used is more impactful, for that 1 purchase. Although Buying a framework also funds that company which will cause more future laptops to be more reparable. So you can argue by not buying used and buying new in a company that needs sales you are actually having a more beneficial impact. I am not saying that is the case, just you can argue it is. Eventually the 8 year old laptop will be what is on the market today, so maybe make as many of those be frameworks as possible.
I will think twice before praising HP because the parts are not available to buy on that laptop
the problem with all computers is the tech always changes and as a result while frameworks are cool and I will probably be getting one the thing is by the time I have to change everything out sure I can make a coool mini pc but if its so out of date who would?
This is the same for desktop computers to the main thing your changeing is the graphics card as a gamer and after enough years that CPU and RAM will also kick the can and your again back to buying whole new system.
whats nice about the framework although a bit pricey is if 1 thing breaks you can repair it with ease similar to that of a desktop but replacing the board for a new one will be a rare occurance as by the time the board needs to be replaced so does the ram so does everything that plugs into it.. Its an issue the tech industry cant really solve because we dont have a standard outside of like atx, micro atx etc the square will still not fit into a triangle its just what happens.
so the appeal of the framework is user friendly repairability and customization, not so much upgradeability. and hopefully framework realizes that as thats the only way they stay profitable. sure you can maybe upgrade 1 part in a few years but eventually you may as well just get a new laptop because your just putting new pieces into the same more then likely scraped up chasis.
I wonder that Concept Luna will sell sooner? What do you think MNT Reform and SHIFT13mi? And know so far knowing Framework, and HP Laptops.
HP Elitebook G8 & G9 series are great for changing their RAM and SSD. Also, the BIOS are easy to adjust.
The Microsoft Surface Pro series, M1 MacBook Pro/Air, and Lenovo ThinkPad series seem to dominate the durability & quality build aspect nowadays. However, they cannot be fixed easily. If you get a lemon, you might as well buy a new one.
Actually, for the user there is a massive benefit to having everything soldered together: battery life and power efficiency. Currently, it will be impossible to create a product as powerful as Apple silicon with the same battery life and power efficiency as apple silicon if it's repairable and modular. Unfortunately, sockets are incredibly inefficient and wasteful. That's why low-powered RAM under the LPDDR spec can use like a fifth of the energy of standard socketed RAM. It's a bitch, but there's nothing we can do about it unless we can somehow change the laws of physics.
Okay I can get my head around that. What about socketed LPDDR?
if soldered mainboards are designed to not break if you accidentialy bridge the connectors with small moisture, or easier to reason the layout and resolder the parts, and parts that are not crucial to security are not paired with serial code, i can support it. apple is the other way around that and the main reason it can be "power efficient" is because if you add safety measures around it costs power and any condititon less than laboratory will kill it early
@@theryanthomas I think we're at the point now where we're hitting physical limits with memory modules - the actual distance to the CPU makes a huge difference in what timings can be reliably hit. To my knowledge, socketed LPDDR5 is capped at around 5600MT, while soldered can go to 7200MT. Dell have designed a new memory module system which might alleviate this a bit, but there realistically will always be a performance compromise to socketed memory (though in my opinion, it's worth it for the upgradability and repairability)
I wouldn't call a Framework laptop "high-end" as he does. But they probably are worth the money I'd say. I don't own one because I hope they eventually come out with a larger sized one. I don't like tiny screens very much. They only have the 13 inch diagonal tiny screens.
The prayers where answered, they did start pre-order on modular 16" laptop.
I'm not a tech guy, but I just need a computer that doesn't start to seriously slow down after two years. Anyone 5 years in on a laptop that's still working well?
2 years and so far so good, just minor wear and tear
Luckily framework has refurbished stock, and it's a lot cheaper too.
Not a word about HP 845 G9
Good point on refurbished products, that is something Framework has been working on. Less e-waste is always better.
Great video, Thank you, ps i noticed you using two mikes, why?
i would like to tell you that i am making a computer out of said thing
I think u mean behemoth (Beh he muth) not ben neh muth 3:02
It’s a British pronunciation. No (n)s in it though. Not sure how you’re hearing the n in my pronunciation.
This video is lame! Click bait!
Oh no!