Look, there's a comment section! Hmm... writing comments under videos is said to boost the video in the algorithm. I wonder if that's somehow relevant here? Let's write a comment! Perhaps I can use this keyboard to type my comment? I typed a comment using this keyboard! If I press 'enter' now, it will appear underneath the video in the comment section. Let's try that! My comment appeared under the video in its comment section! Now I have to wait for others to read it. Hmm, should I go watch the rest of the video in the meantime? Let's go watch the rest of the video while I wait! Wow! The video is playing again and I'm watching it!
there is now a lot of fake / subversive indie studios parading as indie, just like comicsgate is made of a few corporation plants that want you to believe they are not there to manipulate and destroy the indie scene to let some room of legitimacy to the mainstream comics, as they are publishing really bad , incompetent, boring and late books.
Hey, there's a comment and it's pinned! The comment doesn't have many replies and it's pretty accurate and relevant to the issues discussed in the part of the video I'm at. Since I like the comment and want to congratulate the commenter on their apt commentary, I should probably write a comment! There's a keyboard I can use to type my comment. Let's press enter to give this commenter a comment parodying Dave the Diver's dialogue to their comment doing the same thing but better. I should give it a like too, to show support. Let's hope it makes them happy!
@@Hugh.Manatee not at all. I have a cat and she has 0 thoughts before doing something. Actually she has 0 thoughts most of the time. All her actions are made by impulse and desire to eat, destroy and play. Nothing else
I think part of the issue with how the whole subject is viewed is that there are only two categories of games, indie or AAA. It's treated as a dichotomy. There are so many games, like Dave the Diver or Stray, that really don't fit cleanly into either category, they are neither Indie nor AAA. I think it would be more helpful to think about and talk about the whole thing as a spectrum instead, but I doubt that nuance will ever come to be common.
I mean, it's just a loaded description, as it encapsulates both the production and the artistic goals. Larian (baldurs gate 3) is 500 people and made a megahit = "AAA". However, they are still passion driven, self funded = "indie". MiniRocket (dave the diver) are a small production = indie, but were rather market driven and made a megahit = AAA. So, the only meaningful difference is, if the game has a game director that's actually creating "art", as opposed to being by the numbers. It's the same with movies, where someone as Nolan still makes high budget blockbusters, but clearly cares about making a good movie. As opposed to random directors hired by Disney to churn out the next Marvel installment, having a screenplay/actors handed to them, etc. So, to me, it's a top down (AAA) vs bottom up (indie) mindset, that is the most important. In that sense, the actual size doesn't matter as much.
To be fair, not necessarily true for some. while Alan Wake 2 sold as much as you'd expect a good double-a game with a triple-a budget to sell, it hasn't been the most popular in almost any of the categories it was nominated. Plus while Dave was nominated, it wasn't the one that won despite being more popular than a lot of the other nominations.
@@deddrz2549 I can somewhat agree however the nominations are for the most popular games as for who wins there is definitely some level of quality of said game that is considered though it still just feels like a popularity contest due to how we have no idea they choose the game to win.
@@jairdinh7563 I agree that the games that are nominated aren't always the most popular but it does feel like most of the games that win are just they most popular ones (Specially because ik a lot of people just vote for the nominated game they most liked and don't really think about how good they are in that category)
They literally used to just be woman in bikinis with game themes painted on their bodies. It was just MTV entertainment owned by a TV channel that was "just for the guys" and hosted by celebrities who vocally during the show one time didn't like games. Eddy Burback and his brother did a good video on his second, brother channel ua-cam.com/video/BvGn9mm9bT0/v-deo.html&ab_channel=Burback
For me, Pizza Tower undoubtedly was the indie game of the year for 2023. One designer/artist, one programmer, completely crowdfunded. Pizza Tower's the kind of game you play like, 4 times for a complete play-through. It wasn't even nominated for best independent game, just best debut indie game, which it didn't win. That went to Cocoon, which was published by Annapurna.
I want to point out that AAA is not a concept of polish and design, its literally just a description of the studios budget. If AAA was an indication of polish, AAA studios would be putting out banger after banger after banger.
the thing is, they abandon AAA that we know in the 2000s. Back then, every PS2 / PS3 games never receive patches, thus resulting a finished product with sometimes a really great concept or franchises. In that sense, AAA means proper polished experience, like eating a crab buffet. Look at Half Life, GTA SA, Sims 2. When the dev want to patch things up, they must fit it in a DLC (a major content DLC). As of now, AAA is still similar to eating a crab buffet, but it's so inconsistent that you'll constantly get a fuckin raw crabs in there. What's wrong is the STANDARD. Other aspect such as interchangeable sheer size, budget, concepts are relative and interchangeable.
@@nickochioneantony9288 PS3 games did get patches, but more importantly a lack of infrastructure to patch games doesn't mean games were finished, it simply means that there was a lot more pressure to make games as stable and polished as reasonably possible before release. Plenty of games released in broken or unfinished states to varying degrees back then (see: various Sonic games, especially 06). Plus you'd sometimes get updated versions/revisions with future batches of physical copies, or a release in a different region would get a more finished and polished version of the game since the devs had some extra time to work on it (not localization changes but actual improvements from the original devs, like the Japanese versions of Wario World or Stretch Panic), or an updated version of the same game would be released separately on the same platform (e.g.: Metal Gear Solid 3: Subsistence, Doubutsu no Mori e+ in Japan). There's just not a point in time that all games were totally finished products. It never existed. The most you could say is things were _better_ in this regard in the 2000s.
Sounds like Dave the Diver would've been a fantastic yakuza-like game if all those bonkers minigames were optional EDIT: I haven't played the game. I'm basing my thoughts on the information in the video
I didn't get this until I watched the video lol holy heck, I didn't know that was in the game. I thought it was merely a diving and fishing game. It's like Yakuza but with a gun to your head forcing you to play the minigames 😂 shoehorning a rhythm game within a diving game has got to be a flex somewhat.
Most of those mini-games are optional, and the ones that are not are really short story segments to add variety. Some of the mini-games are undeveloped (the stealth section and farming games are probably the worst.) But I don't think it was as bad as she says in the video. That said the thing I tend to value most in games is novelty so I had fun with it.
Dave the Diver was great, but a lot of the side content did feel unnecessary and I would have preferred the spent more time making the restaurant and diving more varied, and less time adding in superfluous side activities.
"Cats see the human world as a puzzle platformer" is an interesting idea though, and the game does get it across very powerfully, even if the puzzle platformer part is rather standard mechanically.
most recently, I've been playing through thecatamites' library, and watching him grow as a developer from Space Funeral to his new Anthology of the Killer series has been one of the most inspirational experiences I've ever had. His intentional messiness makes me feel like *I* can make something, it made me start getting messier with my own art, and after finishing Anthology of the Killer I literally started drawing up a zine because the game had built up so much creative excitement in me that I HAD to do something with it.
I think defining "Indie" as "not AAA" is a genius definition, honestly. it pushes into the spotlight the main reason people value "indie games" in the first place. Hell, it's why the label is called "independent"; in order to be "independent" you have to be contrasted against being "dependent", the question then becomes: Dependent on what? I believe the answer to that question is where the real juice lies. Furthermore, I believe the answer is found in the economic forces at play during the creation of the game (yes I am weird). I think, being "Independent" is a recognition of the freedom of the authors involved in the game, resulting from not having to answer to someone else. The only reason to answer to someone else in this way is, basically, money. In this I am talking about the people ACTUALLY making the game, not the company. If the creative team is making a game, and they are just following their own drive, it counts as independent. The issue then comes from figuring out how many of the decisions of the game were made with the goal of selling a bunch of copies. Capitalism worms its way through every creative endeavor so it's bound to be present in all creative works which are placed in the market and thus transformed into commodities to be compared with other games they must compete with for the gamers' money. With this in mind, we must return to our original equation: Indie =/= AAA In this equation, "indie" gives up its own definition for that of the inverse of "AAA" which prompts the question: What defines a AAA game? The answer, as I see it, is that a AAA game is a commodified game; meaning, a game MEANT to be "A game" one in a rack of games, its own specific characteristics transformed into indistinct features, interchangeable with that of any other "Game" in the rack; it's no longer "THIS game" it's just one of many options for you to choose. In essence: a AAA game = any AAA game, otherwise, competing with one another wouldn't be possible. It's why metrics like "hours per dollar" become a necessity. You could have spent that money in any other game, which would give you indistinct "fun", so the ONLY way to differentiate them is through those kinds of metrics. Let us use this definition back in our original equation: Indie =/= AAA Meaning: Indie =/= Commodity An indie game, with this definition, would be a game that is not meant to compete with other games. A game that, at its core, refuses to give up its unique nature, refuses to become undifferentiated "fun". It's incomparable to other indie games because you can't really thread a cohesive definition that would put them all within the same box, and in that very impossibility, they refuse to be commodities, they are NOT AAA games. It doesn't mean selling an indie game makes it not indie anymore, it doesn't mean they can't be compared with other indie games; rather, it just means that the forces that create the impulse to create undifferentiated, interchangeable products for a market, are absent or at the very least contained. In this way, no game can ever be "truly indie" except those which are not meant to be released (alla "the beginners' guide) but the label "indie" is still useful as a way to distinguish that feeling of a game which cannot be compared to others, not because it has more features, or lasts longer, or is updated more frequently, but because it simply is itself. Anyways idk if it makes sense to anyone else. TL;DR: the video made me think a lot and I thank you for that, first time viewer and definitely gonna binge all your other videos
I'd say independent just means "not owned by a massive company." Animal Crossing isn't an indie game, even if it could be. The creatives might not have been hampered, but.
My problem with this definition is that it would include games which were never called indie prior Like the tales of series were never AAA games But they certainly weren't indie And they certainly do not fit the reason why you think things that aren't AAA are indie
@@MetronaJ I mean here is the thing, a game is a definition of when tech and creative minds create a vision. See the word vision? Well what has been going on in the AAA scene, most visions that the companies wants are being ruined by multiple DEI teams, people who found your original vision insulting to them and therefore demands change for "added profit" we as gamers want to see what the original vision was and playthrough it and then review it, but since we can't really see that the game becomes nothing to us other than *hey Look at this other teams vision for the original teams vision* games like stray and DtD while certainly not praise worthy are good games, not perfect or masterpieces but the original vision was there with the team and that's why we enjoy them. A game for everybody is a game for nobody, stray garnerd the right audience therefore garnerd people who liked the game and wanted to shed some light on it, but heres the catch: when something becomes popular the constant need to consume it because it's classified as a norm won't be everyones taste, the fear of missing out or needing to consume is a problem that can't be exactly fixed. I played stray and enjoyed it and since I could review it without needing to feel obligated to do so by DEI teams I gave it a good review, not my taste, could use more creative outlets but certainly for others that enjoy something that has a level of quality in it's enviromental story telling
@@orge9711 Oh, stfu about DEI bullshit, when games were bad in the past, people didnt claim it was some kind of a conspiracy to ruin games. You people act like consultancy groups like sweetbaby inc are going around like an armed militia, holding a gun to some poor writers head, forcing them to turn every single charachter into a minority
You are talking about what is being called "triple i". I think it formed it has formed because AAA games cost $200 mil & AA cost over $50 mil. So, some smaller games that used to be called indie moved up a level into the few million $ range.
The fact that i stopped taking you seriously at the montage of minigames and mechanics in DtD... i mean, sorry if you didn’t enjoy them, but lying about how they "take you away from diving" is just extremely disingenuous. Every new mechanic is well introduced in the game as something often extra that you absolutely dont need if you just want to finish the game. If you rush through the story like you seem to have done, then of course all those mechanics seeem rush, but if actually enjoy the game and don't do rushing, the other stuff is actually pretty good as a means of letting the game not be repetitive (dive-restaurant infinitely), cause the bare bones CAN become repetitive. A bit of a shame that this poor reasoning was at the start of the video, cause i think I'll stop there for my own sanity lmao.
Completely agree. The "indie" games we celebrate are an incredibly and nonsensically bloated game and another that basically plays itself? Don't we have enough of those in the AAA space? That, I think, says a lot about the industry, how games are made, and most importantly, why games are made. Real artistic integrity is very rare these days. Thank you for this video!
I personally loved Dave the Diver, mostly because of the diving like everyone else, I guess. I also thought the dialogue was pretty fun...and I know it used "let's" and "we" a lot because it was a meta joke: Dave made other comments about what his circumstances would be like in a game (so it was a 4th wall "I know I'm in a game" joke that may have overstayed its welcome for some). It's not perfect, no, the farming section and some of the mini games were definitely shoe horned in and felt annoying but I don't think the imperfections took away from the actual game. I'm one of the people who made it to the end but, tbh, I don't typically like those types of games so, for me, it was nice to play a management sim and a diving game that didn't feel like an annoying chore for me. But I also see why it would be a questionable choice for the award...especially given the size and budget of the team who made it.
I enjoyed Dave the Diver a lot. I don't think it is a mediocre game at all. But I 100% get the reviewers point here. It was cute introducing new mechanics in the first 2 hours of the game. Then it went from the core diving/sushi bar mechanics to management mechanics. Which were ok for a bit. . . but for me it really did start to drag on when I'm finishing my dive and managing multiple farms, fish farms, photo quests, and everything else the game wanted to throw at me. As much as I loved it and will play it again at some point, I really do wish they'd stuck to those two main mechanics, fleshed them out more and called it a day.
Stray really coulda been a gif of a cat But anyways, if the game had had a smaller budget, maybe with less pressure from on high corporate, it could've been a better game Why'd they start making the game? Probably, because somebody said "look, cats are so graceful and cool and stuff, wouldn't it be neat to make really great movement animations for a cat, and we can port what we learn into future projects?" And they done did that! For an indie dev, that's probably the point where they go "ok, I've learned a lot, now lets go give players an obstacle course to play in with their new cat model" But no These guys still had budget So their conversation probably went "ok, we've got the model, now where's the game" And thus their amazing jumping cat model was sidelined in favor of the most atmospheric puzzle solving game they could think up As opposed to the, arguably much more fun thing it could've been, which is a parkour platformer sorta thing Maybe with a cutsie, cat person's dream house art style, with just a lot of things to play with as a cat Coulda had the joke be that cats always land on their feet, so if your cat jumps into a ceiling fan, or falls and hits a bar on the way down, they go into an exaggeratedly funny spin, but somehow land perfectly Or maybe gone with that one pigeon shitter simulator, or untitled goose game, where the goal is to make your humans lives miserable by trying to trip them, hide the tv remote, knock stuff off the counter, stuff like that Or build in multiplayer and or a map maker, like zeepkist or that one marble track game, where you make parcore levels to challenge people, or cat racing All of these ideas, much more fun to play, and make better use the most likely very difficult animation they made, than.. the sitting, or pacing around as you try to solve a puzzle It's obvious the model was made for action So where's the action?
I dunno, the lowest common denominator gameplay contributed to its amazing sales... Not to say that nobody on that game had artistic vision but... Clearly, making money was a goal and actually skill based platforming is not what gets you there. BTW I played and kinda liked it because I was burned out on difficult games at the time. So the above isn't meant to insult it, more to say that games I want to love are too damn hard for me at times.
As a cat person, Stray is very soothing to watch someone else play, but when it came time to actually buy an animal-based game, I went for Untitled Goose Game.
I mean, I was sceptic the moment we gave the indie award to a studio that could afford to do groundbreaking mo-capture on a cat of all things but I didn't care enough because I'm used to ignoring award shows after following the Oscars for a bit in my young adult times. They also looked very unappealing games for me so didn't play them.
Dave the Diver game sounds like the dev wanted to copy the Stardew Valley with its variety of things to do. Forgetting that various activities in SDV are optional and have depth
the video is quite misleading, almost all the minigames are totally optional, and most last barely any time at all. you can ignore almost all of them once you do them only once
Back when sites like Kongregate had people's flash games truly felt like a golden age of indie games for me (showing my age here). I'm still thinking about some of those games almost twenty years later.
I feel like someone approached the people behind Dave The Diver and Stray and steered them in the wrong direction. My personal theory, which has no facts behind it besides gut feeling is this: Stray feels like it was originally going to be like Tunic or Journey, developed with no translatable dialogue, letting the cryptic nature of the story just be there... at least, for the first playthrough. Those who wanted answers would get some of those answers cleared up in the second playthrough, which likely would've had the robot buddy able to do more than point you in a direction and/or let you kitty-laser things. However, they likely saw how the game The Quiet Man bombed because of their attempt at a mysterious storyline and got anxious, and thus, reworked Stray so that it would start you on that second playthrough arc, where the robot buddy is there to translate all the things. With Dave The Diver, they likely got a consultant that was as bad at video games as the IGN reviewer who failed at the tutorial of Cuphead, who likely told them to add in the anti-frustration mechanics (i.e. the farm, fish hatchery, bonus mini-games, etc.). As for the diving being secondary or even tertiary in the last third of the game... they likely got someone complaining that there wasn't a good "overarching" plot beyond the sushi bar, hence the base infiltration and more. Either that, or feature creep set in because they wanted to make the game "worth it". As for the title of "Indie", I feel it has been somewhat co-opted, but I think it should boil down to this: did they have a big publisher backing them from the word "Go"? If not, I personally feel they should be allowed to keep the title "Indie" until they have at lest 100+ employees ( _NOT including contractors, sub-contractors and/or janitorial staff_ ) After all, the name "Indie" is short for "Independent", which, to me at least, means they're not (primarily) backed by a big name in the industry, like Bethesda, Nintendo, EA, etc.
two indie games based on classics are bug fables, which is an extremely charming and customizable overall amazing experience based on the older paper mario titles, and the other is gravity circuit which is a tight, fast paced, skill expressive mega man like which no exaggeration has the best movement of any game ive ever played and is the only game ive ever speedran seriously, please try them out!!
This nails some of my regrets about playing Stray at launch, which I almost never do with games. Thing is, even many of the valid criticisms like generic fetch quests and uninspired interactions were not a deal breaker when I moved on pretty early. I would have kept playing it for probably 10 hours more, if the game had delivered on the premise of moving like a cat through the structures of a convoluted vertical neon city. Movement and traversal abilities are essential to my enjoyment of most games, and this being implemented as "make the X appear on fixed surfaces and press the button" rather than some kind of feline Assassin's Creed as I had imagined was a huge letdown that would have overshadowed even a good game surrounding it. I would have expected this to be reflected in "pro-cat-biased" reviews, as surely some of those reviewers must have been interested in *playing as a cat* rather than just looking at cats in a game, but apparently not.
My fav underrated games would be Frogmonster, Wuppo, Batbarian. Actual favorite is La-mulana but it's relatively well known. VoidStranger also rocks, maybe Aeterna Noctis if you feeling big balls
What I have keep as indie game is what have started as single or few developer project and then grow little bit bigger like My Summer Car, Noita or Phasmophobia etc. These have usually been long hobby project that then have grow to phase that they show people what they have made. Usually indie games have devs that love their project.
LOL. Such part? Your statement means nothing when she showed so many section s of the game. And d dude, her comparison of Dave the diver to stray and putting stray above Dave and tunic is ureter stood, when stray is such a boring game
I'm so annoyed that Teardown(TM) wasn't the award winner I mean it wasn't an indie game in the first place but it could have at least been picked too be the most innovative game instead of a basic ultra cute cat game that is FAR over priced.
You should probably get started on the script for part 2 of this now so its ready in time for Hades 2 winning all the awards when its up for nominations.
This reminds me a bit of the philosophy around Dark Cloud 2, a game with procedurally generated action RPG dungeons that has several aspects that feed into that, like building the weapons up, but also a city building mechanic that is required for the plot, AND fishing that can lead to keeping the fish for a fighting competition AND golfing in the procedurally generated levels. This isn’t to pad out the game either, it’s rpg long on its own, so what gives, and why does that sound better than DTD here? Quickly, you don’t have to golf past the tutorial and there’s like three things you NEED to fish (two I remember one I assume I’m forgetting), plus! Both are only accessible in the dungeons after you clear them, so they’re clearly add-ons, or structurally a coda to the action. It’s positioned well to either engage with at a good time, or to breeze past. The city building gives external structure to the dungeons, so that you’re not just going through dungeon 7/23, you can tangibly say that now that seven dungeons are complete, you can build certain things, and if you keep on going you can finish building the rest for that area. There’s a reason and purpose and benefit to the extra little stuff that makes it feel cohesive, even when it’s trying to be an “everything delicious burrito” with all their favorite stuff jam packed in.
@@PixelaDay oh it’s lovely! Soundtrack is amazing, it’s just also a relatively long ps2 game. As per usual dungeon crawling, there’s enough of it for you to zone out and just sink into the crawl. Worth a try if you had a PlayStation. They upscaled it nicely on the online store. Plus there’s clowns! Who doesn’t like clowns!?
I don't think everything is as bad as you say tbh. Indie games have their own small communities, they don't need the game awards. A lot of people love games like Celeste, Noita and Baba Is You. As long as there are passionate people who want to make something, there will be indie games. Those who make indie games would do this even knowing we'll never get any major awards for it. Yes, maybe some games aren't indie, they're AA or something. Maybe we should make a new category, ranging somewhere from Stray to Baldur's Gate 3. But there would always be edge cases and gray areas. So who really cares how we name stuff? Conclusion: idk, go play Rain World
42:55 - "Indie in spirit" huh? What is Keighley on about? Maybe that "Diver" game has a 2D sprite feel that the billionaires appropriated from the indie movement, but that's it.
I'd respectfully disagree a bit with some points because they're a bit misleading with what you are required to do in the game and what is optional: -Most of the mini games are optional. I barely touched the farm and the chickens, i only used it when some specific quest appeared (vip clients and Bancho's cooking battles). I do agree there are too many and it keeps adding content until the end, but nothing too bad; i mean, the music mini game, space mini game, and the certain zone under water mini games I didn't do them. -The quests are optional, and the VIPs don't go, so you can attend them until you feel like doing it. -Sadly the boss fights aren't optional to progress the story. And yeah, fighting under the water can get clunky and frustrating. I'm clumsy so if i was able to do it, other gamers with more skill should be fine. -The fish farm is optional, and even if you want to use it, you have to invest a lot of money and get eggs to have two of the same species to breed. -The only mini games you have to do constantly is the one to serve drinks.
I don't usually comment, but I honestly think it's just you in regards to Dave the Diver. I actually streamed the whole storyline from start to end, and I found it incredibly fun. I have about 30+ hrs on it. Yes, it's not a "pure" indie game, you are right about that. However, my takeaway from the game was it is an action pixel adventure with a main storyline that touched on a lot of topics (environmental greenwashing(corporations), climate change - warming the oceans, (merpeople) learning about the NPCs through running the sushi shop, and learning a lot about the diverse cast of aquatic life). To say you're not happy with the game because it has a lack of diving, seems pretty narrow, given your channel's focus. Idk, stick to subnautica? I just felt watching your review, you don't like it because it has too much content which I don't think is good criticism. I do agree the video game awards is a lot of fluff and not truly showcasing the best. Yes, there's other mechanics but you're NOT forced to play them again after the 1st tutorial in the main storyline. Re: achievement, I do agree that Steam often pushes a lot of sales to the point people end up having more games they can play. I often talk to my friends about it, some have 200+, 300, or 500+ or more games in their account. It was baffling to hear as I am someone who sticks to 1-3 games at a time for years, apart from streaming where I play a variety but also stick to a few regular titles such as Monster Hunter.
I agree with you that we're not giving the truly innovative indie games the time and praise they deserve. The fact that Shadows of Doubt didn't win most innovative gameplay in the 2023 Steam Awards because people felt like making an ironic statement was a damn tragedy. Ditto for Cult of the Lamb at the 2022 Game Awards. That said, It felt a little strange that you blasted Dave the Diver for being condescending to the player but then immediately got condescending to people who enjoyed Stray as just "cat people" who have no brain or good taste but just mindlessly start cooing when they see a cat on the screen and hitting the 5 stars button. The game wasn't to your taste and you're valid for saying that but that doesn't mean you have to be brain dead to enjoy it. Sure, people posted hyperbolic reviews because internet memes like "can pet kitty/doggo 10/10 game of the year!" have been an internet staple for decades now but that doesn't mean they didn't also just enjoy it for what it was. I don't know anyone who would play a straight up slog of a game just because it has their favorite animal in it. Your review would have been a lot stronger and more enjoyable without talking down to anyone.scending to the player but then immediately got condescending to people who enjoyed Stray as just "cat people" who have no brain or good taste but just mindless
Cat person here. Stray having a cat avatar wasn't why the gameplay resonated with us. It was all the extra details that made me feel like I was role-playing as a cat. I've completed the game twice so I know my enjoyment wasn't hype blindness. On the other hand, I've tried playing dishonored 3 times and I never get more than a few hours in before I feel bored by the clunky movement and uninstall.
Favorite indie games of the last couple years TCHIA (I know one of the devs personally living many years in New Caledonia) and DREDGE (met the devs and the game was made in the country I live in now so it feels very local) special mention to VIEWFINDER also jut for how damn cool the puzzles are !
The irony of Indie games becoming so successful that they are co-opted by big publishers to reach an audience that they pushed away in the first place is almost poetic, in a tragic way. Again, the capitalist machine devours creativity and outputs mediocrity in search of ever greater profits. The industry is constantly chasing trends and dropping entire game genres (Crpgs, Movement Shooters, Horror games, etc.) only to see the indie market fill the gaps and achieve record-breaking sales, before running back to try and carve back a piece of the cash cow they left for dead. And so the cycle continues.
For me, the ultimate indie games are something like Fear and Hunger or Cruelty Squad. From recent releases I would name Fielvidek. They rough, they dirty, they beautifully ugly, and they are filled with passion and soul. They are not afraid of anything. I think this is that makes a true indie game. It's not afraid to be anything it's trying to be. Not afraid to be not liked, or to be critiqued. And they usually know very well that they are. While AAA games are usually afraid of everything and anything and rarely truly know what they are.
i always felt so much guilty for refunding Dave the Diver after one and a half hour because i didn't like the tutorials, this video just makes me feel so much better
Stray is a world building and character driven game. And as another youtuber said, the game isn't even about you, the cat, in the first place. It's about the robot. The main character is the robot, you're just the protagonist. If you think about it that way, the game becomes leauges more intruiging as you play it
of course reject the mainstream. Of course! oh my gosh of course! There's a very strong analogy to the music scene: If you go to original music shows, if you're making original music, you're rejecting the mainstream. and oh look at that, you're cool.
28:38 EXCUSE ME??? it won right besides frikkin TEARDOWN AND NEON WHITE???? One of those games redefined the limit of what a destructable enviroment is and how much of it alone is a game, and the other is in a niche genre (speedrun) with the most unique mechanics i ever seen
Have you seen the thread on this video on r/GamingCirclejerk? People have misinterpreted your intentions entirely based on the title and thumbnail. Honestly, I also assumed this video would be some sort of 'Quirky Earthbound-inspired indie RPG about depression'-tier screed. I only watched it because I was already familiar with your channel and knew you were better than that. My point is you might want to change the title, it seems to be turning people off. I completely agree with your main point, I haven't played either DtD or Stray, but if they're as you described, that they're AA games camouflaged as Indies, then that's a shame. Also, Rain World is one of my favourite games, and when you were describing Stray I was literally like 'hang on, that's the survivors story' and then you also pointed it out.
Thanks for the heads-up! I had no idea someone shared it on there, it's very funny seeing some of the assumptions being made (some people think I hate indies and am a AAA shill? lollll). I workshopped a few titles and this was the one my fellow essayists liked best but maybe I'll change it to another one. Then again I'm not sure how much my choices should be dictated by the sort of people who get enraged about a video they haven't even watched...
@@PixelaDay My favorite comments are the ones that think they're countering you, but are accidentally agreeing with your video because they haven't watched it. The new title you've given it feels less inflammatory to me, so hopefully less people get mad.
GamingCircleJerk is gone off the wall, they'll jump the gun so quick now. Some people were even accusing her of being an incel without having even seen the video. 😕
the thing about indies now is the devs want the games to sell more because they want to make a living and open studios and grow. So the best way to do that is to conform to what a majority of consumers DO like, which is hand holding and "rounded edges". The industry is shifting to the mega large AAA developers dying and the small indies becoming the new AA then eventually they will get so big it will be AAA again. its a cycle
I loved stray, but even i can agree the game wasnt anything special. I had a blast admiring the gorgeous environments, interesting NPC's and charming yet straightfoward narrative. But even i was like 'that was quick' by the end of the game.
57:40 CORRU MENTIONEEEEEED WOOOOOO it really is one of the most hidden indie gems of these past years, and it keeps going, it captivated me from the first moment and i know i'm not the only one,,
I was thinking as I watched this why, despite feeling generally the same way I think you do about Stray (enjoyable, but way overhyped for what it is), I'm not nearly as bothered by it getting picked at the game awards. I think it came down to do things: I've generally see the awards as big industry space (and that's putting it diplomatically) so of course you'd never see the kind of observation you'd otherwise hope for. The second is that, at the end of the day I think there's something antithetical to the best parts the indie space of trying to narrow it down to a small handful or even a single title with an award. I don't know if I could come up with a definition, but I think I do have an idea of what I mean when I talk about indie games. It's more of a placeholder for a concept that I can't describe as succinctly for the purposes of conversation: games where art or vision or an idea is their reason for being rather than potential profits. Games that, particularly when you poke at their structures, seem like they were made because someone wanted to make that game, at least as much if not more than because someone wanted to sell that game.
Yea, I felt quite let down by Stray. I was expecting them to go harder into being a cat, but you nailed it, it just felt like an avatar for any basic character action game. And I am a cat person. Also, I never finished Dave the Diver, I liked the fishing but I got annoyed at the constant forced distractions.
"why space?" I haven't played the game, but that's clearly a Tetris reference. This game reeks of wanting to borrow and combine a lot of ideas, without the wit to curate those ideas or make them fit together.
Something I find quite odd about those who aim for the indie scene is how much they romanticize it. They'll point to the games mentioned in this video as well as viral hits like Undertale and -insert Metroidvania here-, and proclaim how much "better" indie games are compared to AAA. But most indie games are absolute trash. Like.. theres a lot of absolute garbage out there that is made by people passionate about their little project. Those indies deserve to be bought and played, too, not just the "exception that proves the rule." And no, I dont mean asset flipped games.
Depends on the genre. Some genres do get a lot of great indie games like Anti-Gravity racers, Beat Em Ups, Action and Turn-based Roguelites, Extreme Sports Sims, and Fighting games but others suffer from too many trying to cash in on the genre like with Third-person shooters, Survival games, Online PVP shooters, and Simulator games. So your tastes pretty much affect your experience in finding stuff. My main issue with people who only point out the popular indie games is that they are the ones who don't actually spend time searching and trying out indie games directly from online stores and sites and just end up promoting games that are already popular or only play indie games that are already successful.
As a cat person I had no interest in Stray, you can't just put cats in a game to catch my interest, lol. My indie rec is Tales of Maj'Eyal. This is my all time favourite game, it's like a turn-based arpg with every custom character class your dnd-obsessed friends ever dreamed up.
an excellent video. I agree with you. the thing is, innovative small games will rarely see mainstream appeal because they inherently market towards a smaller niche of players who want to play something new.
My definition for an indie is a game that isn't made to please shareholders. If you have a publisher or a parent company that holds you to the will of detached bigwigs, then you aren't working independently anymore.
Aw man, I just got the fish farm and thought it was kinda weird. The photo parts I can live with but I'm really not in the mood for doing stealth or farming in a scuba diving game.... It's all so unnecessary
I'm 10 minutes in and you've already perfectly encapsulated why i'll never finish Dave the Diver, or ever touch it again for that matter. The first 10 or so hours were majestic fun in the sea, which immediately became an *onslaught* of nothing burger side-filler that is the rest of the experience. I stopped playing after I had so many different objectives I couldn't keep track anymore and felt choice anxiety on what to do next. Why would a game that would in all essence be quite low stress and cozy make me feel that way? So I deleted it after having probably wasted way too much time on it. It really is a shame though because when it shined, it was actually a really nice gameplay loop that was sadly bloated with too much nonsense. (which I found funny at first! Until it was literally happening over and over again and taking over the flow of the game)
I only discovered your channel yesterday... I genuinely cannot believe I didn't find it before! This is deep, knowledgable commentary about gaming media and media overall that is also deeply personal. I have seen another two of your videos. From literature, to art, politics and culture. What you do is truly special. Keep up the good work! 🫂❤️
What gets my goat about stray is that it feels less like it was made to express anything the developers wanted and more like they saw how people go nuts for mischevious cats in games and said "yeah let's make that, let's do that" It's artificial comfort, they put the comfy in without any idea why most nice, classic comfy games work
As a cat person, I already knew what Stray was tryng to do. Never ever I found a game so uninteresting about something that I deeply love, and i spent years feeling gut punches whenever someone talked excited about the game, as if it was a "master piece of indie games", when in reality was just an "ok" game.
Let’s not forget the fact that Stray has 1 enemy while Rainworld has loads of extremely smart and unique creatures (and I meant creatures as they exist in an expansive environment)
Hey I wanted to express this, when you say what makes somthing Indie I believe that a true indie is when there is no publisher involved. What im realizing is that alot of these "Indie games" are actually "Indie-stry plants" just like in music a artist will claim theyre indipendent or signed to a small label but really they had nepotizim connections which helped thier music become good, or their small label is owned by a larger conglomorate. This same practice is rampant in gaming which is being done on purpose to confuse the customer on what is truly independant, so the larger gaming industry as a whole can keep control of the gaming market.
Let's give the algorithm something to eat for all the effort: It is nice to have such in-depth videos on such topics. While I enjoyed playing Dave (despite some overzealous handholding) and enjoyed it taking the player to some unexpected places and mini-games all the time, I agree that it won't land any nominations for being very indie or all that innovative. While it is not a bad game and even stray has the merits of being right for some people and enjoyable for a lot more, I agree that a lot of very noteworthy indie games is relegated to the fringes of the spotlight with the center of attention going to such games.
Most innovative game is a joke. Starfield won it last year and it's literally a watered down version of a 25 year old RPG. I'm just as salty as you lol
I'm a game designer and to be honest "indie" is a useless term to me. If you were to come to me to commission a game and told me you want it to be "indie", it would tell me nothing and I'd need to ask you what you mean specifically. Also, I disagree with "indie is what AAA isn't" because that definition includes Death's Stranding but excludes any small game made by a hypothetical 3-person team using AAA tricks for whatever reason. To me, "indie" is a subjective vibe, like "cozy", "immersive", or "delightful". And honestly, it distracts from the issue. Namely: -What systemic issues in the gaming industry and ecosystem is driving the AAA homogeneity? (my TLDR answer to that is capitalism btw) -What has made gamer expectations lead to them overwhelmingly liking Dave the Diver and finding Stray's gameplay to be innovative? (personal guess: most people that played those two games are casual players)? -What needs to change for the ecosystem to incentivize more creativity, expression, and experimentation? (That one is a larger discussion, but I'd argue a good start would be unionizing the industry. Give game devs more power in the workplace, and creativity will probably flourish at the AAA level, which will elevate gamer expectations, which then grows the audience for less mainstream titles).
Stray was what it inteded to be. A sight seeing game where you run around as a cat. That's it. Was it beautiful? Yeah. Was it particularly exciting and action packed? Not really, but it didn't intend to be that way. Was it quite nice, unique and polished? Yeah. Where there better debute indie games that year? I don't know, most of the 2022 was kinda meh when it comes to indies, tbh. Maybe Sifu? Dave? I don't even know what it wants to be.
I think the artistic side has nothing to do with indie at all, infact half of what cones out of people messing around with unity and unreal is quite uninspired and even have nothing new to say mechanically or artistically, yet they are most certainly indie. What you describe is what you like in good indie games, but it isnt a good definition for what they are. I think the resources in terms of people abd money i think is better at describing the category, while the artistic nature is more useful in describing wether an indie is good or not.
28:46 Okay, I haven't played stray, but most of the people I have seen play it, really, really liked it. I'm talking streamers and other players mostly. I'm wondering if part of it's popularity is because it's an easy play. Like, I think some of the examples you have here are definitely due to lack of exposure. But I'm wondering how many are due to them just not having an appropriate difficulty curve. When I quite a game because I've been bashing my head against a difficulty wall I typically don't have fond feelings about it anymore.
When it comes to indie games I always rank them on a list. I: Funded entirely from the devs pockets or crowdfunded. Published by the dev team. And it has a pretty small dev team. II: Funded a bit by a 3rd party like a publisher. Published by a game publisher (think something like devolver). Has a pretty small dev team. III: Funded by a big corporation. Published by a big corporation. But again. Has a small dev team. what i'm mostly saying is once a dev team gets big (around 20+) then it just feels less like an indie game because ideas have to get passed around from person to person rather then with smaller teams where they can come up with ideas while taking a shower and try adding those ideas
Was randomly recommended your channel by UA-cam, always have to give a fellow Aussie a sub. Keep up the good work and i agreed on most of your points. I think indie is just one of those things, "you know it when you see it", most of the time...
The "what is an indie game" question was interesting to me! So I decided to take a shot at what I would answer if someone asked me that question. If you ask me, you can define an indie game as a game that was made, from the ground up, from passion. The goal was to make a good game, or have fun doing it, as opposed to making profit. And before you point to any triple-A game and go "look, the designers talked about how much fun they had making it! The writers loved the characters to pieces! They were passionate, too!", that may be true on an EMPLOYEE level, but can you say that for the rest of the company? The higher-ups? Was the millionaire CEO also so passionate? How about the people they hired to do market research on the best formula for assuring profit through microtransactions? No, of course not. In other words, GTA 5 is not an indie game, because the higher-ups decided that a sequel should be made for the sake of profit, and so the code monkeys on the bottom made a game for their overlords. Cuphead IS an indie game because, while Microsoft did publish the game, Microsoft weren't the ones who decided that the game should be made the way it was. The game's actual producers cared enough about making their game that they remortgaged their homes for crying out loud! You can try to define an indie game using team size or stuff like that, but there's no cutoff at which it makes sense to divide the two. A 30-person studio can make an indie game, while another 10-person studio can make a cashgrab cookie-cutter completely-safe mobile game scam for profit. Team size is the symptom, not the cause. If your team is small, you can have a more personal relationship and see your fellow developers as fellow artists wanting to express themselves. If your team is massive, you probably don't even know the names of 1/10th of your studio, and they all blend into the crowd of "coworkers" rather than appearing as individuals. Of course, while intent is objective, judging the intent of others is impossible. So whether a game counts as indie or not under these guidelines (or... anyone's, really) is up to the knowledge, opinions, and speculation on the part of the beholder.
First- "What is an indie game" in my opinion. Indie game: An Independent game constructed by a team of around or under 10 people (not including those who worked on assets bought 3rd party) that are independently funded, or funded directly by their customers, or if there is corporate funding, it should be under 50% of their funding. It also helps if the main lead or owner of the studio also provides a lot of work in the development of the game, either via writing, programming, designing, not necessarily just as the 'director' of the game. This doesn't account towards distribution or advertising because what makes a game 'indie' or not shouldn't be determined on if the marketing budget is $1 or $1 million. Because here's the thing, there are current 'Indie' games that basically do what AAA is attempting to do but better. Project Wingman 'is' an Indie Game, but it looks stunning and feels more like a AAA game than any AAA game. Indie shouldn't be 'artistically constrained' to "It does what AAA doesn't", as in many cases it can do what AAA does but 'better'. Indie isn't a 'style', Indie is the best way to translate from creator to game. No weirdo sensitivity teams to change X,Y,or Z because of demographics, no higher authority saying 'the audience wont like this', no investors to worry about, no 2nd in command fudging the intended direction of the author. If the creator is detail oriented, making a beautiful looking experience, or if the creator is a bit of an insulting edgelord, both count as indie as long as it kind of matches up *financially* cause once it gets too big, there's too many layers between creator and creation. Frankly, the best games are the divisive ones that respect their audience. "A game for everyone, is a game for no one". So I think the 'spirit of indie' isn't "The more weird and revolutionary the mechanics are", the more 'anti AAA'. In reality, Indie is the purest form of expression for the creator, even if that expression might 'seem' AAA. Also I think its interesting how, despite everyone talking about 'indie games' and so on. Everyone forgets to include FNAF.
hardly 10 minutes into the video, removing the game from my wishlist, great heavens thank you for helping me dodge this bullet, my backlog is already waaaay too crouded to waste my time on this TToTT
You know I was willing to give Dave the diver a chance but holy moly i will not be able to deal with all that yapping, unnecessary dialogue from games is a pet peeve of mine.
Look, there's a comment section!
Hmm... writing comments under videos is said to boost the video in the algorithm. I wonder if that's somehow relevant here?
Let's write a comment!
Perhaps I can use this keyboard to type my comment?
I typed a comment using this keyboard!
If I press 'enter' now, it will appear underneath the video in the comment section. Let's try that!
My comment appeared under the video in its comment section!
Now I have to wait for others to read it. Hmm, should I go watch the rest of the video in the meantime?
Let's go watch the rest of the video while I wait!
Wow! The video is playing again and I'm watching it!
This is a perfect comment.
The best and greatest comment
That deserves more likes
there is now a lot of fake / subversive indie studios parading as indie, just like comicsgate is made of a few corporation plants that want you to believe they are not there to manipulate and destroy the indie scene to let some room of legitimacy to the mainstream comics, as they are publishing really bad , incompetent, boring and late books.
Hey, there's a comment and it's pinned!
The comment doesn't have many replies and it's pretty accurate and relevant to the issues discussed in the part of the video I'm at.
Since I like the comment and want to congratulate the commenter on their apt commentary, I should probably write a comment!
There's a keyboard I can use to type my comment.
Let's press enter to give this commenter a comment parodying Dave the Diver's dialogue to their comment doing the same thing but better.
I should give it a like too, to show support.
Let's hope it makes them happy!
"You're not fully in control of the cat."
So, they went for realism.
I mean, sure, but that position is premised on the experience of being not-a-cat in proximity to a cat
@@TXWatson Maybe cats aren't even fully in control of themselves?
The glazing is unreal
The idea is it isn't very engaging or satisfying. As someone that 100% completed the game. Its a good point.
@@Hugh.Manatee not at all. I have a cat and she has 0 thoughts before doing something. Actually she has 0 thoughts most of the time. All her actions are made by impulse and desire to eat, destroy and play. Nothing else
I think part of the issue with how the whole subject is viewed is that there are only two categories of games, indie or AAA. It's treated as a dichotomy.
There are so many games, like Dave the Diver or Stray, that really don't fit cleanly into either category, they are neither Indie nor AAA.
I think it would be more helpful to think about and talk about the whole thing as a spectrum instead, but I doubt that nuance will ever come to be common.
I’ve seen people attempt to use both “AA” and “III”. Personally I’m not a fan of either.
I mean, it's just a loaded description, as it encapsulates both the production and the artistic goals.
Larian (baldurs gate 3) is 500 people and made a megahit = "AAA". However, they are still passion driven, self funded = "indie".
MiniRocket (dave the diver) are a small production = indie, but were rather market driven and made a megahit = AAA.
So, the only meaningful difference is, if the game has a game director that's actually creating "art", as opposed to being by the numbers. It's the same with movies, where someone as Nolan still makes high budget blockbusters, but clearly cares about making a good movie. As opposed to random directors hired by Disney to churn out the next Marvel installment, having a screenplay/actors handed to them, etc.
So, to me, it's a top down (AAA) vs bottom up (indie) mindset, that is the most important. In that sense, the actual size doesn't matter as much.
@@zippa93 AA has been a term for more than a decade.
Yeah I remember hearing it around Subnautica (2014), but I don’t feel like it’s really caught on
There were double AA games back in the day, back when big studios made smaller projects. Remember Me is a good example.
Ive never taken the game awards too seriously because it doesn't reward the best games it just rewards the most popular.
To be fair, not necessarily true for some. while Alan Wake 2 sold as much as you'd expect a good double-a game with a triple-a budget to sell, it hasn't been the most popular in almost any of the categories it was nominated. Plus while Dave was nominated, it wasn't the one that won despite being more popular than a lot of the other nominations.
@@deddrz2549 I can somewhat agree however the nominations are for the most popular games as for who wins there is definitely some level of quality of said game that is considered though it still just feels like a popularity contest due to how we have no idea they choose the game to win.
@@jairdinh7563 I agree that the games that are nominated aren't always the most popular but it does feel like most of the games that win are just they most popular ones (Specially because ik a lot of people just vote for the nominated game they most liked and don't really think about how good they are in that category)
Aherm...disco elysium....aherm
They literally used to just be woman in bikinis with game themes painted on their bodies. It was just MTV entertainment owned by a TV channel that was "just for the guys" and hosted by celebrities who vocally during the show one time didn't like games. Eddy Burback and his brother did a good video on his second, brother channel ua-cam.com/video/BvGn9mm9bT0/v-deo.html&ab_channel=Burback
For me, Pizza Tower undoubtedly was the indie game of the year for 2023. One designer/artist, one programmer, completely crowdfunded. Pizza Tower's the kind of game you play like, 4 times for a complete play-through.
It wasn't even nominated for best independent game, just best debut indie game, which it didn't win. That went to Cocoon, which was published by Annapurna.
I want to point out that AAA is not a concept of polish and design, its literally just a description of the studios budget. If AAA was an indication of polish, AAA studios would be putting out banger after banger after banger.
the thing is, they abandon AAA that we know in the 2000s.
Back then, every PS2 / PS3 games never receive patches, thus resulting a finished product with sometimes a really great concept or franchises.
In that sense, AAA means proper polished experience, like eating a crab buffet. Look at Half Life, GTA SA, Sims 2. When the dev want to patch things up, they must fit it in a DLC (a major content DLC).
As of now, AAA is still similar to eating a crab buffet, but it's so inconsistent that you'll constantly get a fuckin raw crabs in there. What's wrong is the STANDARD. Other aspect such as interchangeable sheer size, budget, concepts are relative and interchangeable.
@@nickochioneantony9288 PS3 games did get patches, but more importantly a lack of infrastructure to patch games doesn't mean games were finished, it simply means that there was a lot more pressure to make games as stable and polished as reasonably possible before release.
Plenty of games released in broken or unfinished states to varying degrees back then (see: various Sonic games, especially 06). Plus you'd sometimes get updated versions/revisions with future batches of physical copies, or a release in a different region would get a more finished and polished version of the game since the devs had some extra time to work on it (not localization changes but actual improvements from the original devs, like the Japanese versions of Wario World or Stretch Panic), or an updated version of the same game would be released separately on the same platform (e.g.: Metal Gear Solid 3: Subsistence, Doubutsu no Mori e+ in Japan).
There's just not a point in time that all games were totally finished products. It never existed. The most you could say is things were _better_ in this regard in the 2000s.
I tune out the awards part of The Game Awards for this reason. It feels like the whole show is just recognizing virality.
I feel like most people care way more about the announcements, and the random goofy shit.
Sounds like Dave the Diver would've been a fantastic yakuza-like game if all those bonkers minigames were optional
EDIT: I haven't played the game. I'm basing my thoughts on the information in the video
I didn't get this until I watched the video lol holy heck, I didn't know that was in the game. I thought it was merely a diving and fishing game. It's like Yakuza but with a gun to your head forcing you to play the minigames 😂 shoehorning a rhythm game within a diving game has got to be a flex somewhat.
Most of those mini-games are optional, and the ones that are not are really short story segments to add variety. Some of the mini-games are undeveloped (the stealth section and farming games are probably the worst.) But I don't think it was as bad as she says in the video. That said the thing I tend to value most in games is novelty so I had fun with it.
You can ignore like 90% of that shit.
Wow am I glad I didn't buy Dave the Diver. Wouldn't be surprised if all that bloat was directly caused by pressure from higher ups
Dave the Diver was great, but a lot of the side content did feel unnecessary and I would have preferred the spent more time making the restaurant and diving more varied, and less time adding in superfluous side activities.
"Cats see the human world as a puzzle platformer" is an interesting idea though, and the game does get it across very powerfully, even if the puzzle platformer part is rather standard mechanically.
Mirror's Edge is honestly a much better example of that tbh. Although the violent aspects and danger have a totally different vibe.
most recently, I've been playing through thecatamites' library, and watching him grow as a developer from Space Funeral to his new Anthology of the Killer series has been one of the most inspirational experiences I've ever had. His intentional messiness makes me feel like *I* can make something, it made me start getting messier with my own art, and after finishing Anthology of the Killer I literally started drawing up a zine because the game had built up so much creative excitement in me that I HAD to do something with it.
Glad someone's giving Anthology of the Killer the recognition it deserves lmao
thecatamites rocks!!!!
The space funeral dev is still making stuff? I need to check this out
Indie game: A game that keeps the demo up post-release.
This gave me a scary, dystopic definition:
Indie: Buy to Play
AAA: live service
@@Soumeinliterally how it is rn, every other AAA release is multiplayer only, requires online connection, or has a battlepass
There's still single player aaa don't be a doomer about it
@@Kaeloz93what if it's online-needed tho when singleplayer?
@@DoctorWhoNow01 but nintendo tho
I think defining "Indie" as "not AAA" is a genius definition, honestly.
it pushes into the spotlight the main reason people value "indie games" in the first place. Hell, it's why the label is called "independent"; in order to be "independent" you have to be contrasted against being "dependent", the question then becomes: Dependent on what?
I believe the answer to that question is where the real juice lies.
Furthermore, I believe the answer is found in the economic forces at play during the creation of the game (yes I am weird). I think, being "Independent" is a recognition of the freedom of the authors involved in the game, resulting from not having to answer to someone else. The only reason to answer to someone else in this way is, basically, money.
In this I am talking about the people ACTUALLY making the game, not the company.
If the creative team is making a game, and they are just following their own drive, it counts as independent. The issue then comes from figuring out how many of the decisions of the game were made with the goal of selling a bunch of copies. Capitalism worms its way through every creative endeavor so it's bound to be present in all creative works which are placed in the market and thus transformed into commodities to be compared with other games they must compete with for the gamers' money.
With this in mind, we must return to our original equation:
Indie =/= AAA
In this equation, "indie" gives up its own definition for that of the inverse of "AAA" which prompts the question: What defines a AAA game?
The answer, as I see it, is that a AAA game is a commodified game; meaning, a game MEANT to be "A game" one in a rack of games, its own specific characteristics transformed into indistinct features, interchangeable with that of any other "Game" in the rack; it's no longer "THIS game" it's just one of many options for you to choose.
In essence: a AAA game = any AAA game, otherwise, competing with one another wouldn't be possible.
It's why metrics like "hours per dollar" become a necessity. You could have spent that money in any other game, which would give you indistinct "fun", so the ONLY way to differentiate them is through those kinds of metrics.
Let us use this definition back in our original equation:
Indie =/= AAA
Meaning:
Indie =/= Commodity
An indie game, with this definition, would be a game that is not meant to compete with other games. A game that, at its core, refuses to give up its unique nature, refuses to become undifferentiated "fun". It's incomparable to other indie games because you can't really thread a cohesive definition that would put them all within the same box, and in that very impossibility, they refuse to be commodities, they are NOT AAA games.
It doesn't mean selling an indie game makes it not indie anymore, it doesn't mean they can't be compared with other indie games; rather, it just means that the forces that create the impulse to create undifferentiated, interchangeable products for a market, are absent or at the very least contained. In this way, no game can ever be "truly indie" except those which are not meant to be released (alla "the beginners' guide) but the label "indie" is still useful as a way to distinguish that feeling of a game which cannot be compared to others, not because it has more features, or lasts longer, or is updated more frequently, but because it simply is itself.
Anyways idk if it makes sense to anyone else.
TL;DR: the video made me think a lot and I thank you for that, first time viewer and definitely gonna binge all your other videos
Thanks for your comment! Welcome and I hope you enjoy the channel :)
I'd say independent just means "not owned by a massive company." Animal Crossing isn't an indie game, even if it could be. The creatives might not have been hampered, but.
My problem with this definition is that it would include games which were never called indie prior
Like the tales of series were never AAA games
But they certainly weren't indie
And they certainly do not fit the reason why you think things that aren't AAA are indie
@@MetronaJ I mean here is the thing, a game is a definition of when tech and creative minds create a vision. See the word vision? Well what has been going on in the AAA scene, most visions that the companies wants are being ruined by multiple DEI teams, people who found your original vision insulting to them and therefore demands change for "added profit" we as gamers want to see what the original vision was and playthrough it and then review it, but since we can't really see that the game becomes nothing to us other than *hey Look at this other teams vision for the original teams vision* games like stray and DtD while certainly not praise worthy are good games, not perfect or masterpieces but the original vision was there with the team and that's why we enjoy them. A game for everybody is a game for nobody, stray garnerd the right audience therefore garnerd people who liked the game and wanted to shed some light on it, but heres the catch: when something becomes popular the constant need to consume it because it's classified as a norm won't be everyones taste, the fear of missing out or needing to consume is a problem that can't be exactly fixed. I played stray and enjoyed it and since I could review it without needing to feel obligated to do so by DEI teams I gave it a good review, not my taste, could use more creative outlets but certainly for others that enjoy something that has a level of quality in it's enviromental story telling
@@orge9711 Oh, stfu about DEI bullshit, when games were bad in the past, people didnt claim it was some kind of a conspiracy to ruin games. You people act like consultancy groups like sweetbaby inc are going around like an armed militia, holding a gun to some poor writers head, forcing them to turn every single charachter into a minority
You are talking about what is being called "triple i". I think it formed it has formed because AAA games cost $200 mil & AA cost over $50 mil. So, some smaller games that used to be called indie moved up a level into the few million $ range.
mwaaaa i feel like the triple I initiative showcased true indie games, maybe call them.. oh yeah. AA. Just a thought
A game can be AAA simply with a budget of $30 Million, Remedy games is proof of this, they aren't indie.
The writing and the constant interrupting every few minutes so Dave can tell that he opened a door really reminded me of Dora the Explorer.
THANK YOU for the captions, especially on such a long video
You're welcome!
I cannot tell you how much I adore your videos
The fact that i stopped taking you seriously at the montage of minigames and mechanics in DtD... i mean, sorry if you didn’t enjoy them, but lying about how they "take you away from diving" is just extremely disingenuous. Every new mechanic is well introduced in the game as something often extra that you absolutely dont need if you just want to finish the game. If you rush through the story like you seem to have done, then of course all those mechanics seeem rush, but if actually enjoy the game and don't do rushing, the other stuff is actually pretty good as a means of letting the game not be repetitive (dive-restaurant infinitely), cause the bare bones CAN become repetitive.
A bit of a shame that this poor reasoning was at the start of the video, cause i think I'll stop there for my own sanity lmao.
I'm confused. Should I or should I not put the intact divine tree fruit in the divine tree fruit device?
Completely agree. The "indie" games we celebrate are an incredibly and nonsensically bloated game and another that basically plays itself?
Don't we have enough of those in the AAA space?
That, I think, says a lot about the industry, how games are made, and most importantly, why games are made.
Real artistic integrity is very rare these days.
Thank you for this video!
I personally loved Dave the Diver, mostly because of the diving like everyone else, I guess. I also thought the dialogue was pretty fun...and I know it used "let's" and "we" a lot because it was a meta joke: Dave made other comments about what his circumstances would be like in a game (so it was a 4th wall "I know I'm in a game" joke that may have overstayed its welcome for some). It's not perfect, no, the farming section and some of the mini games were definitely shoe horned in and felt annoying but I don't think the imperfections took away from the actual game. I'm one of the people who made it to the end but, tbh, I don't typically like those types of games so, for me, it was nice to play a management sim and a diving game that didn't feel like an annoying chore for me.
But I also see why it would be a questionable choice for the award...especially given the size and budget of the team who made it.
I enjoyed Dave the Diver a lot. I don't think it is a mediocre game at all. But I 100% get the reviewers point here. It was cute introducing new mechanics in the first 2 hours of the game. Then it went from the core diving/sushi bar mechanics to management mechanics. Which were ok for a bit. . . but for me it really did start to drag on when I'm finishing my dive and managing multiple farms, fish farms, photo quests, and everything else the game wanted to throw at me.
As much as I loved it and will play it again at some point, I really do wish they'd stuck to those two main mechanics, fleshed them out more and called it a day.
The fish farm part brings to mind the Sid Meier quote: "Given the opportunity, players will optimize the fun out of a game"
13:00 lmao
Stray really coulda been a gif of a cat
But anyways, if the game had had a smaller budget, maybe with less pressure from on high corporate, it could've been a better game
Why'd they start making the game? Probably, because somebody said "look, cats are so graceful and cool and stuff, wouldn't it be neat to make really great movement animations for a cat, and we can port what we learn into future projects?"
And they done did that!
For an indie dev, that's probably the point where they go "ok, I've learned a lot, now lets go give players an obstacle course to play in with their new cat model"
But no
These guys still had budget
So their conversation probably went "ok, we've got the model, now where's the game"
And thus their amazing jumping cat model was sidelined in favor of the most atmospheric puzzle solving game they could think up
As opposed to the, arguably much more fun thing it could've been, which is a parkour platformer sorta thing
Maybe with a cutsie, cat person's dream house art style, with just a lot of things to play with as a cat
Coulda had the joke be that cats always land on their feet, so if your cat jumps into a ceiling fan, or falls and hits a bar on the way down, they go into an exaggeratedly funny spin, but somehow land perfectly
Or maybe gone with that one pigeon shitter simulator, or untitled goose game, where the goal is to make your humans lives miserable by trying to trip them, hide the tv remote, knock stuff off the counter, stuff like that
Or build in multiplayer and or a map maker, like zeepkist or that one marble track game, where you make parcore levels to challenge people, or cat racing
All of these ideas, much more fun to play, and make better use the most likely very difficult animation they made, than.. the sitting, or pacing around as you try to solve a puzzle
It's obvious the model was made for action
So where's the action?
I dunno, the lowest common denominator gameplay contributed to its amazing sales... Not to say that nobody on that game had artistic vision but... Clearly, making money was a goal and actually skill based platforming is not what gets you there. BTW I played and kinda liked it because I was burned out on difficult games at the time. So the above isn't meant to insult it, more to say that games I want to love are too damn hard for me at times.
As a cat person, Stray is very soothing to watch someone else play, but when it came time to actually buy an animal-based game, I went for Untitled Goose Game.
I mean, I was sceptic the moment we gave the indie award to a studio that could afford to do groundbreaking mo-capture on a cat of all things but I didn't care enough because I'm used to ignoring award shows after following the Oscars for a bit in my young adult times. They also looked very unappealing games for me so didn't play them.
Thank you for introducing me to the writing of Tevis Thompson in this video. I haven’t been this electrified by games writing in quite a while!
I HAVE DONE GOOD IN THE WORLD
Dave the Diver game sounds like the dev wanted to copy the Stardew Valley with its variety of things to do. Forgetting that various activities in SDV are optional and have depth
the video is quite misleading, almost all the minigames are totally optional, and most last barely any time at all. you can ignore almost all of them once you do them only once
Back when sites like Kongregate had people's flash games truly felt like a golden age of indie games for me (showing my age here). I'm still thinking about some of those games almost twenty years later.
I just visited Kongregate the other day, I can't believe it's still around
I feel like someone approached the people behind Dave The Diver and Stray and steered them in the wrong direction.
My personal theory, which has no facts behind it besides gut feeling is this: Stray feels like it was originally going to be like Tunic or Journey, developed with no translatable dialogue, letting the cryptic nature of the story just be there... at least, for the first playthrough. Those who wanted answers would get some of those answers cleared up in the second playthrough, which likely would've had the robot buddy able to do more than point you in a direction and/or let you kitty-laser things. However, they likely saw how the game The Quiet Man bombed because of their attempt at a mysterious storyline and got anxious, and thus, reworked Stray so that it would start you on that second playthrough arc, where the robot buddy is there to translate all the things.
With Dave The Diver, they likely got a consultant that was as bad at video games as the IGN reviewer who failed at the tutorial of Cuphead, who likely told them to add in the anti-frustration mechanics (i.e. the farm, fish hatchery, bonus mini-games, etc.). As for the diving being secondary or even tertiary in the last third of the game... they likely got someone complaining that there wasn't a good "overarching" plot beyond the sushi bar, hence the base infiltration and more. Either that, or feature creep set in because they wanted to make the game "worth it".
As for the title of "Indie", I feel it has been somewhat co-opted, but I think it should boil down to this: did they have a big publisher backing them from the word "Go"? If not, I personally feel they should be allowed to keep the title "Indie" until they have at lest 100+ employees ( _NOT including contractors, sub-contractors and/or janitorial staff_ ) After all, the name "Indie" is short for "Independent", which, to me at least, means they're not (primarily) backed by a big name in the industry, like Bethesda, Nintendo, EA, etc.
two indie games based on classics are bug fables, which is an extremely charming and customizable overall amazing experience based on the older paper mario titles, and the other is gravity circuit which is a tight, fast paced, skill expressive mega man like which no exaggeration has the best movement of any game ive ever played and is the only game ive ever speedran seriously, please try them out!!
This nails some of my regrets about playing Stray at launch, which I almost never do with games.
Thing is, even many of the valid criticisms like generic fetch quests and uninspired interactions were not a deal breaker when I moved on pretty early. I would have kept playing it for probably 10 hours more, if the game had delivered on the premise of moving like a cat through the structures of a convoluted vertical neon city. Movement and traversal abilities are essential to my enjoyment of most games, and this being implemented as "make the X appear on fixed surfaces and press the button" rather than some kind of feline Assassin's Creed as I had imagined was a huge letdown that would have overshadowed even a good game surrounding it.
I would have expected this to be reflected in "pro-cat-biased" reviews, as surely some of those reviewers must have been interested in *playing as a cat* rather than just looking at cats in a game, but apparently not.
I will never forgive you for informing me that Stray won an award over TUNIC
My fav underrated games would be Frogmonster, Wuppo, Batbarian. Actual favorite is La-mulana but it's relatively well known. VoidStranger also rocks, maybe Aeterna Noctis if you feeling big balls
What I have keep as indie game is what have started as single or few developer project and then grow little bit bigger like My Summer Car, Noita or Phasmophobia etc.
These have usually been long hobby project that then have grow to phase that they show people what they have made. Usually indie games have devs that love their project.
the worst part about dave the divers explainy-ness? the part you showed, for those who dont know, is the LAST AREA IN THE ENTIRE GAME
ouch
LOL. Such part? Your statement means nothing when she showed so many section s of the game.
And d dude, her comparison of Dave the diver to stray and putting stray above Dave and tunic is ureter stood, when stray is such a boring game
I'm so annoyed that Teardown(TM) wasn't the award winner I mean it wasn't an indie game in the first place but it could have at least been picked too be the most innovative game instead of a basic ultra cute cat game that is FAR over priced.
You should probably get started on the script for part 2 of this now so its ready in time for Hades 2 winning all the awards when its up for nominations.
This reminds me a bit of the philosophy around Dark Cloud 2, a game with procedurally generated action RPG dungeons that has several aspects that feed into that, like building the weapons up, but also a city building mechanic that is required for the plot, AND fishing that can lead to keeping the fish for a fighting competition AND golfing in the procedurally generated levels. This isn’t to pad out the game either, it’s rpg long on its own, so what gives, and why does that sound better than DTD here?
Quickly, you don’t have to golf past the tutorial and there’s like three things you NEED to fish (two I remember one I assume I’m forgetting), plus! Both are only accessible in the dungeons after you clear them, so they’re clearly add-ons, or structurally a coda to the action. It’s positioned well to either engage with at a good time, or to breeze past.
The city building gives external structure to the dungeons, so that you’re not just going through dungeon 7/23, you can tangibly say that now that seven dungeons are complete, you can build certain things, and if you keep on going you can finish building the rest for that area.
There’s a reason and purpose and benefit to the extra little stuff that makes it feel cohesive, even when it’s trying to be an “everything delicious burrito” with all their favorite stuff jam packed in.
Never heard of this game but it sounds fascinating
@@PixelaDay oh it’s lovely! Soundtrack is amazing, it’s just also a relatively long ps2 game. As per usual dungeon crawling, there’s enough of it for you to zone out and just sink into the crawl. Worth a try if you had a PlayStation. They upscaled it nicely on the online store. Plus there’s clowns! Who doesn’t like clowns!?
I don't think everything is as bad as you say tbh. Indie games have their own small communities, they don't need the game awards.
A lot of people love games like Celeste, Noita and Baba Is You.
As long as there are passionate people who want to make something, there will be indie games. Those who make indie games would do this even knowing we'll never get any major awards for it.
Yes, maybe some games aren't indie, they're AA or something. Maybe we should make a new category, ranging somewhere from Stray to Baldur's Gate 3. But there would always be edge cases and gray areas. So who really cares how we name stuff?
Conclusion: idk, go play Rain World
42:55 - "Indie in spirit" huh? What is Keighley on about? Maybe that "Diver" game has a 2D sprite feel that the billionaires appropriated from the indie movement, but that's it.
The rocket at the end with the credits in space might be a reference to Subnautica?
If you're looking for indie games by watching the game awards then maybe you're just not thinking very hard
I'd respectfully disagree a bit with some points because they're a bit misleading with what you are required to do in the game and what is optional:
-Most of the mini games are optional. I barely touched the farm and the chickens, i only used it when some specific quest appeared (vip clients and Bancho's cooking battles). I do agree there are too many and it keeps adding content until the end, but nothing too bad; i mean, the music mini game, space mini game, and the certain zone under water mini games I didn't do them.
-The quests are optional, and the VIPs don't go, so you can attend them until you feel like doing it.
-Sadly the boss fights aren't optional to progress the story. And yeah, fighting under the water can get clunky and frustrating. I'm clumsy so if i was able to do it, other gamers with more skill should be fine.
-The fish farm is optional, and even if you want to use it, you have to invest a lot of money and get eggs to have two of the same species to breed.
-The only mini games you have to do constantly is the one to serve drinks.
I don't usually comment, but I honestly think it's just you in regards to Dave the Diver. I actually streamed the whole storyline from start to end, and I found it incredibly fun. I have about 30+ hrs on it. Yes, it's not a "pure" indie game, you are right about that. However, my takeaway from the game was it is an action pixel adventure with a main storyline that touched on a lot of topics (environmental greenwashing(corporations), climate change - warming the oceans, (merpeople) learning about the NPCs through running the sushi shop, and learning a lot about the diverse cast of aquatic life). To say you're not happy with the game because it has a lack of diving, seems pretty narrow, given your channel's focus. Idk, stick to subnautica? I just felt watching your review, you don't like it because it has too much content which I don't think is good criticism. I do agree the video game awards is a lot of fluff and not truly showcasing the best.
Yes, there's other mechanics but you're NOT forced to play them again after the 1st tutorial in the main storyline.
Re: achievement, I do agree that Steam often pushes a lot of sales to the point people end up having more games they can play. I often talk to my friends about it, some have 200+, 300, or 500+ or more games in their account. It was baffling to hear as I am someone who sticks to 1-3 games at a time for years, apart from streaming where I play a variety but also stick to a few regular titles such as Monster Hunter.
Saying she should go to other game because she thinks a game called "Dave *The Diver" lacks diving is also pretty bad, right?
Stray's LoZ:OoT type jumping was because people couldn't get the timing for jumps done properly...
I agree with you that we're not giving the truly innovative indie games the time and praise they deserve. The fact that Shadows of Doubt didn't win most innovative gameplay in the 2023 Steam Awards because people felt like making an ironic statement was a damn tragedy. Ditto for Cult of the Lamb at the 2022 Game Awards.
That said, It felt a little strange that you blasted Dave the Diver for being condescending to the player but then immediately got condescending to people who enjoyed Stray as just "cat people" who have no brain or good taste but just mindlessly start cooing when they see a cat on the screen and hitting the 5 stars button. The game wasn't to your taste and you're valid for saying that but that doesn't mean you have to be brain dead to enjoy it. Sure, people posted hyperbolic reviews because internet memes like "can pet kitty/doggo 10/10 game of the year!" have been an internet staple for decades now but that doesn't mean they didn't also just enjoy it for what it was. I don't know anyone who would play a straight up slog of a game just because it has their favorite animal in it. Your review would have been a lot stronger and more enjoyable without talking down to anyone.scending to the player but then immediately got condescending to people who enjoyed Stray as just "cat people" who have no brain or good taste but just mindless
Cat person here. Stray having a cat avatar wasn't why the gameplay resonated with us. It was all the extra details that made me feel like I was role-playing as a cat. I've completed the game twice so I know my enjoyment wasn't hype blindness. On the other hand, I've tried playing dishonored 3 times and I never get more than a few hours in before I feel bored by the clunky movement and uninstall.
I agree
Favorite indie games of the last couple years TCHIA (I know one of the devs personally living many years in New Caledonia) and DREDGE (met the devs and the game was made in the country I live in now so it feels very local) special mention to VIEWFINDER also jut for how damn cool the puzzles are !
The irony of Indie games becoming so successful that they are co-opted by big publishers to reach an audience that they pushed away in the first place is almost poetic, in a tragic way. Again, the capitalist machine devours creativity and outputs mediocrity in search of ever greater profits. The industry is constantly chasing trends and dropping entire game genres (Crpgs, Movement Shooters, Horror games, etc.) only to see the indie market fill the gaps and achieve record-breaking sales, before running back to try and carve back a piece of the cash cow they left for dead. And so the cycle continues.
This is such a good description of the last fifteen years of gaming my god
Cope harder
For me, the ultimate indie games are something like Fear and Hunger or Cruelty Squad. From recent releases I would name Fielvidek. They rough, they dirty, they beautifully ugly, and they are filled with passion and soul. They are not afraid of anything. I think this is that makes a true indie game. It's not afraid to be anything it's trying to be. Not afraid to be not liked, or to be critiqued. And they usually know very well that they are. While AAA games are usually afraid of everything and anything and rarely truly know what they are.
i always felt so much guilty for refunding Dave the Diver after one and a half hour because i didn't like the tutorials, this video just makes me feel so much better
cat people and dog people disagree on a lot of things but there is ONE thing they agree on: bird people are fucking weird.
It's rarely financially viable to make good games, but it is quite viable to market mediocrity as A Good Game.
Dave the diver reminds me of that one Prozd sketch "games that think more gameplay mechanics equals more fun"
Stray is a world building and character driven game. And as another youtuber said, the game isn't even about you, the cat, in the first place. It's about the robot. The main character is the robot, you're just the protagonist. If you think about it that way, the game becomes leauges more intruiging as you play it
of course reject the mainstream. Of course! oh my gosh of course! There's a very strong analogy to the music scene: If you go to original music shows, if you're making original music, you're rejecting the mainstream. and oh look at that, you're cool.
28:38
EXCUSE ME??? it won right besides frikkin TEARDOWN AND NEON WHITE????
One of those games redefined the limit of what a destructable enviroment is and how much of it alone is a game, and the other is in a niche genre (speedrun) with the most unique mechanics i ever seen
Have you seen the thread on this video on r/GamingCirclejerk? People have misinterpreted your intentions entirely based on the title and thumbnail. Honestly, I also assumed this video would be some sort of 'Quirky Earthbound-inspired indie RPG about depression'-tier screed. I only watched it because I was already familiar with your channel and knew you were better than that.
My point is you might want to change the title, it seems to be turning people off. I completely agree with your main point, I haven't played either DtD or Stray, but if they're as you described, that they're AA games camouflaged as Indies, then that's a shame.
Also, Rain World is one of my favourite games, and when you were describing Stray I was literally like 'hang on, that's the survivors story' and then you also pointed it out.
So I was right she used clickbait to try and boost her medicore video
Thanks for the heads-up! I had no idea someone shared it on there, it's very funny seeing some of the assumptions being made (some people think I hate indies and am a AAA shill? lollll). I workshopped a few titles and this was the one my fellow essayists liked best but maybe I'll change it to another one. Then again I'm not sure how much my choices should be dictated by the sort of people who get enraged about a video they haven't even watched...
@@PixelaDay My favorite comments are the ones that think they're countering you, but are accidentally agreeing with your video because they haven't watched it. The new title you've given it feels less inflammatory to me, so hopefully less people get mad.
GamingCircleJerk is gone off the wall, they'll jump the gun so quick now. Some people were even accusing her of being an incel without having even seen the video. 😕
@@kimmygrrr8355 Clickbait means when someone doesn't deliver on the premise. I watched the entire hour and this video did.
the thing about indies now is the devs want the games to sell more because they want to make a living and open studios and grow. So the best way to do that is to conform to what a majority of consumers DO like, which is hand holding and "rounded edges".
The industry is shifting to the mega large AAA developers dying and the small indies becoming the new AA then eventually they will get so big it will be AAA again.
its a cycle
I loved stray, but even i can agree the game wasnt anything special. I had a blast admiring the gorgeous environments, interesting NPC's and charming yet straightfoward narrative. But even i was like 'that was quick' by the end of the game.
You have no idea how hard to are actually selling Dave the River to me. Sounds like WarioWare on crack.
I take that as a big success! Enjoy the game! :)
@@PixelaDay Wow, I typo'ed the HELL out of that original comment! Lol. As always, looking forward to the next video!
Dave the River sounds like an interesting concept.
57:40 CORRU MENTIONEEEEEED WOOOOOO it really is one of the most hidden indie gems of these past years, and it keeps going, it captivated me from the first moment and i know i'm not the only one,,
I was thinking as I watched this why, despite feeling generally the same way I think you do about Stray (enjoyable, but way overhyped for what it is), I'm not nearly as bothered by it getting picked at the game awards. I think it came down to do things: I've generally see the awards as big industry space (and that's putting it diplomatically) so of course you'd never see the kind of observation you'd otherwise hope for. The second is that, at the end of the day I think there's something antithetical to the best parts the indie space of trying to narrow it down to a small handful or even a single title with an award.
I don't know if I could come up with a definition, but I think I do have an idea of what I mean when I talk about indie games. It's more of a placeholder for a concept that I can't describe as succinctly for the purposes of conversation: games where art or vision or an idea is their reason for being rather than potential profits. Games that, particularly when you poke at their structures, seem like they were made because someone wanted to make that game, at least as much if not more than because someone wanted to sell that game.
Yea, I felt quite let down by Stray. I was expecting them to go harder into being a cat, but you nailed it, it just felt like an avatar for any basic character action game. And I am a cat person. Also, I never finished Dave the Diver, I liked the fishing but I got annoyed at the constant forced distractions.
"why space?" I haven't played the game, but that's clearly a Tetris reference. This game reeks of wanting to borrow and combine a lot of ideas, without the wit to curate those ideas or make them fit together.
Something I find quite odd about those who aim for the indie scene is how much they romanticize it. They'll point to the games mentioned in this video as well as viral hits like Undertale and -insert Metroidvania here-, and proclaim how much "better" indie games are compared to AAA.
But most indie games are absolute trash. Like.. theres a lot of absolute garbage out there that is made by people passionate about their little project. Those indies deserve to be bought and played, too, not just the "exception that proves the rule."
And no, I dont mean asset flipped games.
Depends on the genre. Some genres do get a lot of great indie games like Anti-Gravity racers, Beat Em Ups, Action and Turn-based Roguelites, Extreme Sports Sims, and Fighting games but others suffer from too many trying to cash in on the genre like with Third-person shooters, Survival games, Online PVP shooters, and Simulator games. So your tastes pretty much affect your experience in finding stuff.
My main issue with people who only point out the popular indie games is that they are the ones who don't actually spend time searching and trying out indie games directly from online stores and sites and just end up promoting games that are already popular or only play indie games that are already successful.
As a cat person I had no interest in Stray, you can't just put cats in a game to catch my interest, lol.
My indie rec is Tales of Maj'Eyal. This is my all time favourite game, it's like a turn-based arpg with every custom character class your dnd-obsessed friends ever dreamed up.
an excellent video. I agree with you. the thing is, innovative small games will rarely see mainstream appeal because they inherently market towards a smaller niche of players who want to play something new.
My definition for an indie is a game that isn't made to please shareholders. If you have a publisher or a parent company that holds you to the will of detached bigwigs, then you aren't working independently anymore.
41:43 you can't believe how excited i was when you started mentioning my favorite games one after the other (even dyo!)
Aw man, I just got the fish farm and thought it was kinda weird. The photo parts I can live with but I'm really not in the mood for doing stealth or farming in a scuba diving game.... It's all so unnecessary
I'm 10 minutes in and you've already perfectly encapsulated why i'll never finish Dave the Diver, or ever touch it again for that matter. The first 10 or so hours were majestic fun in the sea, which immediately became an *onslaught* of nothing burger side-filler that is the rest of the experience. I stopped playing after I had so many different objectives I couldn't keep track anymore and felt choice anxiety on what to do next. Why would a game that would in all essence be quite low stress and cozy make me feel that way? So I deleted it after having probably wasted way too much time on it. It really is a shame though because when it shined, it was actually a really nice gameplay loop that was sadly bloated with too much nonsense. (which I found funny at first! Until it was literally happening over and over again and taking over the flow of the game)
I only discovered your channel yesterday... I genuinely cannot believe I didn't find it before! This is deep, knowledgable commentary about gaming media and media overall that is also deeply personal. I have seen another two of your videos. From literature, to art, politics and culture. What you do is truly special. Keep up the good work! 🫂❤️
Ah, lovely comment - thanks so much for watching my stuff
Loved the video, great work!
I like the more big scopes indies like Hades and etc... but we have to remind ourselves that no strings means inovations
I think this problem is in part due to the lack of "AA" games as a term
What gets my goat about stray is that it feels less like it was made to express anything the developers wanted and more like they saw how people go nuts for mischevious cats in games and said "yeah let's make that, let's do that"
It's artificial comfort, they put the comfy in without any idea why most nice, classic comfy games work
As a cat person, I already knew what Stray was tryng to do. Never ever I found a game so uninteresting about something that I deeply love, and i spent years feeling gut punches whenever someone talked excited about the game, as if it was a "master piece of indie games", when in reality was just an "ok" game.
Amazing video! And great comment section to, it's gonna take me some time to get through these
Rain world is what Stray wishes it was.
Let’s not forget the fact that Stray has 1 enemy while Rainworld has loads of extremely smart and unique creatures (and I meant creatures as they exist in an expansive environment)
guys i think we should just have transistor win every category every year forever. it is simply the best video game
As an autist who also gets annoyed at the shallow perception of videogames, thanks.
Hey I wanted to express this, when you say what makes somthing Indie I believe that a true indie is when there is no publisher involved. What im realizing is that alot of these "Indie games" are actually "Indie-stry plants" just like in music a artist will claim theyre indipendent or signed to a small label but really they had nepotizim connections which helped thier music become good, or their small label is owned by a larger conglomorate. This same practice is rampant in gaming which is being done on purpose to confuse the customer on what is truly independant, so the larger gaming industry as a whole can keep control of the gaming market.
Let's give the algorithm something to eat for all the effort: It is nice to have such in-depth videos on such topics. While I enjoyed playing Dave (despite some overzealous handholding) and enjoyed it taking the player to some unexpected places and mini-games all the time, I agree that it won't land any nominations for being very indie or all that innovative. While it is not a bad game and even stray has the merits of being right for some people and enjoyable for a lot more, I agree that a lot of very noteworthy indie games is relegated to the fringes of the spotlight with the center of attention going to such games.
Every line that comes out of Dave the Diver's mouth feels like it came from a writer from YIIK: A Post-Modern RPG.
Most innovative game is a joke.
Starfield won it last year and it's literally a watered down version of a 25 year old RPG. I'm just as salty as you lol
if the cat from stray was gay, TGA would've packed up and said "alright folks gaming is over, thanks for watching"
I'm a game designer and to be honest "indie" is a useless term to me. If you were to come to me to commission a game and told me you want it to be "indie", it would tell me nothing and I'd need to ask you what you mean specifically.
Also, I disagree with "indie is what AAA isn't" because that definition includes Death's Stranding but excludes any small game made by a hypothetical 3-person team using AAA tricks for whatever reason.
To me, "indie" is a subjective vibe, like "cozy", "immersive", or "delightful".
And honestly, it distracts from the issue. Namely:
-What systemic issues in the gaming industry and ecosystem is driving the AAA homogeneity? (my TLDR answer to that is capitalism btw)
-What has made gamer expectations lead to them overwhelmingly liking Dave the Diver and finding Stray's gameplay to be innovative? (personal guess: most people that played those two games are casual players)?
-What needs to change for the ecosystem to incentivize more creativity, expression, and experimentation? (That one is a larger discussion, but I'd argue a good start would be unionizing the industry. Give game devs more power in the workplace, and creativity will probably flourish at the AAA level, which will elevate gamer expectations, which then grows the audience for less mainstream titles).
Indie. Independent. Free from control of others.
I like creative freedom.
Stray was what it inteded to be. A sight seeing game where you run around as a cat. That's it. Was it beautiful? Yeah. Was it particularly exciting and action packed? Not really, but it didn't intend to be that way. Was it quite nice, unique and polished? Yeah. Where there better debute indie games that year? I don't know, most of the 2022 was kinda meh when it comes to indies, tbh. Maybe Sifu?
Dave? I don't even know what it wants to be.
I think the artistic side has nothing to do with indie at all, infact half of what cones out of people messing around with unity and unreal is quite uninspired and even have nothing new to say mechanically or artistically, yet they are most certainly indie. What you describe is what you like in good indie games, but it isnt a good definition for what they are. I think the resources in terms of people abd money i think is better at describing the category, while the artistic nature is more useful in describing wether an indie is good or not.
28:46 Okay, I haven't played stray, but most of the people I have seen play it, really, really liked it. I'm talking streamers and other players mostly. I'm wondering if part of it's popularity is because it's an easy play. Like, I think some of the examples you have here are definitely due to lack of exposure. But I'm wondering how many are due to them just not having an appropriate difficulty curve. When I quite a game because I've been bashing my head against a difficulty wall I typically don't have fond feelings about it anymore.
Damn, this video really made me want to play Dave the Diver that I skipped back then :D
When it comes to indie games I always rank them on a list.
I: Funded entirely from the devs pockets or crowdfunded. Published by the dev team. And it has a pretty small dev team.
II: Funded a bit by a 3rd party like a publisher. Published by a game publisher (think something like devolver). Has a pretty small dev team.
III: Funded by a big corporation. Published by a big corporation. But again. Has a small dev team.
what i'm mostly saying is once a dev team gets big (around 20+) then it just feels less like an indie game because ideas have to get passed around from person to person rather then with smaller teams where they can come up with ideas while taking a shower and try adding those ideas
20 is nowhere near big, also this ranking system is really flawed there's so many more factors and scenarios that determine the level of a studio
@@thinkingsnake1189 Yeah but after 20 you start getting to the point where the original idea for the game might start changing from person to person
Was randomly recommended your channel by UA-cam, always have to give a fellow Aussie a sub. Keep up the good work and i agreed on most of your points. I think indie is just one of those things, "you know it when you see it", most of the time...
I'm a cat people and stray feels boring as fuck
Stray feels like a tech demo that lasts way too long. The fact you dont even control the platforming in a platformer is deranged.
The "what is an indie game" question was interesting to me! So I decided to take a shot at what I would answer if someone asked me that question.
If you ask me, you can define an indie game as a game that was made, from the ground up, from passion. The goal was to make a good game, or have fun doing it, as opposed to making profit. And before you point to any triple-A game and go "look, the designers talked about how much fun they had making it! The writers loved the characters to pieces! They were passionate, too!", that may be true on an EMPLOYEE level, but can you say that for the rest of the company? The higher-ups? Was the millionaire CEO also so passionate? How about the people they hired to do market research on the best formula for assuring profit through microtransactions? No, of course not.
In other words, GTA 5 is not an indie game, because the higher-ups decided that a sequel should be made for the sake of profit, and so the code monkeys on the bottom made a game for their overlords. Cuphead IS an indie game because, while Microsoft did publish the game, Microsoft weren't the ones who decided that the game should be made the way it was. The game's actual producers cared enough about making their game that they remortgaged their homes for crying out loud!
You can try to define an indie game using team size or stuff like that, but there's no cutoff at which it makes sense to divide the two. A 30-person studio can make an indie game, while another 10-person studio can make a cashgrab cookie-cutter completely-safe mobile game scam for profit. Team size is the symptom, not the cause. If your team is small, you can have a more personal relationship and see your fellow developers as fellow artists wanting to express themselves. If your team is massive, you probably don't even know the names of 1/10th of your studio, and they all blend into the crowd of "coworkers" rather than appearing as individuals.
Of course, while intent is objective, judging the intent of others is impossible. So whether a game counts as indie or not under these guidelines (or... anyone's, really) is up to the knowledge, opinions, and speculation on the part of the beholder.
First- "What is an indie game" in my opinion.
Indie game: An Independent game constructed by a team of around or under 10 people (not including those who worked on assets bought 3rd party) that are independently funded, or funded directly by their customers, or if there is corporate funding, it should be under 50% of their funding. It also helps if the main lead or owner of the studio also provides a lot of work in the development of the game, either via writing, programming, designing, not necessarily just as the 'director' of the game.
This doesn't account towards distribution or advertising because what makes a game 'indie' or not shouldn't be determined on if the marketing budget is $1 or $1 million.
Because here's the thing, there are current 'Indie' games that basically do what AAA is attempting to do but better. Project Wingman 'is' an Indie Game, but it looks stunning and feels more like a AAA game than any AAA game.
Indie shouldn't be 'artistically constrained' to "It does what AAA doesn't", as in many cases it can do what AAA does but 'better'. Indie isn't a 'style', Indie is the best way to translate from creator to game. No weirdo sensitivity teams to change X,Y,or Z because of demographics, no higher authority saying 'the audience wont like this', no investors to worry about, no 2nd in command fudging the intended direction of the author.
If the creator is detail oriented, making a beautiful looking experience, or if the creator is a bit of an insulting edgelord, both count as indie as long as it kind of matches up *financially* cause once it gets too big, there's too many layers between creator and creation.
Frankly, the best games are the divisive ones that respect their audience. "A game for everyone, is a game for no one".
So I think the 'spirit of indie' isn't "The more weird and revolutionary the mechanics are", the more 'anti AAA'. In reality, Indie is the purest form of expression for the creator, even if that expression might 'seem' AAA.
Also I think its interesting how, despite everyone talking about 'indie games' and so on.
Everyone forgets to include FNAF.
hardly 10 minutes into the video, removing the game from my wishlist, great heavens thank you for helping me dodge this bullet, my backlog is already waaaay too crouded to waste my time on this TToTT
Haha you're welcome! The diving is nice though! Maybe a good sale game...
You know I was willing to give Dave the diver a chance but holy moly i will not be able to deal with all that yapping, unnecessary dialogue from games is a pet peeve of mine.
Remember when videogames had faith in your ability to..... do anything?