Look, there's a comment section! Hmm... writing comments under videos is said to boost the video in the algorithm. I wonder if that's somehow relevant here? Let's write a comment! Perhaps I can use this keyboard to type my comment? I typed a comment using this keyboard! If I press 'enter' now, it will appear underneath the video in the comment section. Let's try that! My comment appeared under the video in its comment section! Now I have to wait for others to read it. Hmm, should I go watch the rest of the video in the meantime? Let's go watch the rest of the video while I wait! Wow! The video is playing again and I'm watching it!
there is now a lot of fake / subversive indie studios parading as indie, just like comicsgate is made of a few corporation plants that want you to believe they are not there to manipulate and destroy the indie scene to let some room of legitimacy to the mainstream comics, as they are publishing really bad , incompetent, boring and late books.
Hey, there's a comment and it's pinned! The comment doesn't have many replies and it's pretty accurate and relevant to the issues discussed in the part of the video I'm at. Since I like the comment and want to congratulate the commenter on their apt commentary, I should probably write a comment! There's a keyboard I can use to type my comment. Let's press enter to give this commenter a comment parodying Dave the Diver's dialogue to their comment doing the same thing but better. I should give it a like too, to show support. Let's hope it makes them happy!
@@Hugh.Manatee not at all. I have a cat and she has 0 thoughts before doing something. Actually she has 0 thoughts most of the time. All her actions are made by impulse and desire to eat, destroy and play. Nothing else
To be fair, not necessarily true for some. while Alan Wake 2 sold as much as you'd expect a good double-a game with a triple-a budget to sell, it hasn't been the most popular in almost any of the categories it was nominated. Plus while Dave was nominated, it wasn't the one that won despite being more popular than a lot of the other nominations.
@@deddrz2549 I can somewhat agree however the nominations are for the most popular games as for who wins there is definitely some level of quality of said game that is considered though it still just feels like a popularity contest due to how we have no idea they choose the game to win.
@@jairdinh7563 I agree that the games that are nominated aren't always the most popular but it does feel like most of the games that win are just they most popular ones (Specially because ik a lot of people just vote for the nominated game they most liked and don't really think about how good they are in that category)
They literally used to just be woman in bikinis with game themes painted on their bodies. It was just MTV entertainment owned by a TV channel that was "just for the guys" and hosted by celebrities who vocally during the show one time didn't like games. Eddy Burback and his brother did a good video on his second, brother channel ua-cam.com/video/BvGn9mm9bT0/v-deo.html&ab_channel=Burback
I just want to add the small counterpoint that indie games have no specific onus upon them to explore new mechanics, ideas, or themes. Stardew Valley is a ideal refinement of decades-old mechanics, and it's great! The entire boomer-shooter genre is profoundly deriviative, and that's the whole point of them! Just because a game is unoriginal doesn't mean it's bad, and furthermore, it's still very possible to tell deep personal stories with well-worn genres. I love inventive and genre-breaking games too, but it feels inappropriate to measure all games (indie and otherwise) by that yardstick.
I don't know if that's fair to boomer shooters... depending on how you define the sub-genre. Many would consider games like Ultrakill, Hyper Demon, Neon White, etc. "boomer shooters", and I think those are more unique and doing more to push the fps genre forward than the vast majority of FPS out there. There aren't a bunch of Ultrakill clones popping up because it did the exact same things games from the 90s did.
@@321cheeseman it did not, Ultrakill has deep movement mechanics something Doom does not, beyond moving fast, dusk is a better example of not bringing anything new to the table, dusk is a simple throwback... the reason you don't see Ultrakill clones is bc very few devs actually care to implement deep movement mechanics. it requires some interest and understanding of physics to do well, even if the movement mechanics are inherently unrealistic.
@@bam_bino__ It did though. Ultrakill has very clearly inspired a fair few games (Reaver, Voidborn, Force Reboot, etc.) and there will certainly be more in the future. What I'm saying is I can't imagine this would be the case if Ultrakill were doing nothing new, or didn't at least offer a particularly novel combination of existing ideas and aesthetics.
@@321cheeseman I agree. While I wouldn't call Hyper Drmon or Neon White Boomer Shooters, they are a clear evolution of that type game. It's like an alternate path the genre might have taken instead of the scripted cinematic presentation it opted for instead.
There's a difference between refining old formulas/being inspired by cool aesthetics, and using the exact same tired concepts and stylings that everyone else is using. You're doing a disservice to stardew valley. That game is a lot like the harvest moon games, but it puts a lot of work into being extremely unique.
got to "the opening scene of stray is exactly my shit", and said out loud, "you should play rain world!!!". got to "it's the exact opening sequence of rain world!" and said "oh!". got to "because of that one annoying friend that rants at you about it constantly" and said "oh..." edit, now that i've actually finished the video: you're never gonna guess what that "favorite underrated indie gem" is...
Playing Rain World while listening the video, this sequence made me pause the game and start watching in bewilderment 'cause the person who i see the first time in my life, knows about RW. I mean, without me telling her about it in the first place, wow. Guess this game spreads most effectively through word of mouth, isn't it?
"Hey look indies are doing great! Look at this good indie live service called Hell Divers 2" Sony: _Oh.. uh, yea. Totally indie... Please make a Sony account._
"They're rough when Triple-A is polished" Ah yes, what I most associate with Triple-A game development, polish and definitely not rushing a game to meet a deadline under crunch.
Just from the top of my head Against the Storm, Dyson Sphere Program and Planet Crafter were better in early access release than most AAA games on full release. They also received better and faster support than AAA games. Today I can't buy AAA game on release, because I know it's gonna be an unenjoyable, buggy mess until a year or so has passed and the game is at least kinda finished.
@@joetheeskimo8885 you also cannot get a score higher than an A, requires you to build out the road system for it to be really effective, and is honestly better suited for moving equipment you don't need to other bases. think a floating carrier but clunkier
At that point, Valve games are indie. They do what people love about indie games by experimenting. But Valve is a major publisher with tons of money. I think the idea of indie good, AAA bad is a false narrative that's leading to this.
18:20 It's really validating knowing I'm not the only person with the experience of playing Rain World before Stray, and having my enthusiasm for the game curbstomped by 40% the second a line of dialogue came on screen and then was asked to go fetch quests and barter with random people. In interviews and development logs and stuff, the devs reiterated that they always wanted the game to be more like an adventure game where you just so happen to play as a cat -- and not at all a game that's really concerned about BEING the cat. And they completely achieved all their goals, which is so painful for all the things the game could've been. Soundtrack is absolutely killer though
> And they completely achieved all their goals, which is so painful for all the things the game could've been. And then people get salty because the game doesn't turns out to be what they _wanted_ it to be.
@@DarthBiomech Too true, man. People wanted a unique or interesting experience, and got salty when it turned out to be profoundly bland, samey, and mediocre with an overwhelmingly positive on Steam and many awards and accolades because the visuals are nice and the cat can meow.
@@Clownacy but it's so good precisely because of this presentation. you spend half of the game thinking its a really well designed and cared about Zelda clone and then boom. "OH SHIT IT'S NOT ZELDA." If it didn't establish itself as a Zelda clone, the way it breaks the fact its a Zelda clone wouldn't hit. Plus, even the Zelda clone part is good, and it doesn't just completely copy ideas.
Also, I feel like the Indie/AAA distinction we have now has a lot to do with the 08 market crash and how it killed the AA developer scene that exists from that time. I think a lot of these games like Dave The Diver or Hades are us seeing the AA dev starting to come back, just being born out of the Indie movement that kept a lot of them alive or that those new players had to grow up in in an age where big publishers and developers became SUPER RISK ADVERSE for like 2 decades.
It's also related to the current development studio mass layoffs and how those people are basically starting to re-break ground the way game development in the olden days started out - in a cave with a box of scraps. Just with years of experience making games, but now they're forced to just have a go without big publisher money because those big publishers are beheading golden geese left and right. So a lot of "indie" now means "former AAA devs trying to survive and keep doing what they love doing". A lot of that means seeing more AA and "triple-A-style" indie projects.
yeah i dont like that she asked exactly 0 indie game devs for this video indie games dont avoid convention they just dont care about convention. also indie is a distinguishment made by if you are INDEPENDENT it is measurable if you have a publisher or parent company or investors you are no longer indie.
Is valve indie or indie in spirit? What about Nintendo? Indie doesn't mean innovative in the same way AAA doesn't mean corpo slop. Companies are made of people with vision regardless of size.
Yeah that was a bad analogy. A lot of games have mechanics that streamline core gameplay. Like getting No Encounter weapons in FFX when the whole game is based around encounters.
@@thomasloughlin7938no encounter doesn't subvert FF gameplay completely, it lets you pause random encounters when it's strategically advantageous. If you play the whole game with them you'll be under leveled, short on items, etc. The ability often isn't available from the start either and is usually more of a late game QoL for people who have specific goals to get there without constant harassment. One shotting trash mobs that want to suicide by hero of light every 5 seconds while giving barely any rewards is not the most engaging part of these games after 50+ hours.... XD Edit: A better example is FF8 junction+refine+Triple Triad. Levels are meaningless or even make the game harder as enemies level with you and you have access to most items/magic without having to farm mobs.
I think part of the issue with how the whole subject is viewed is that there are only two categories of games, indie or AAA. It's treated as a dichotomy. There are so many games, like Dave the Diver or Stray, that really don't fit cleanly into either category, they are neither Indie nor AAA. I think it would be more helpful to think about and talk about the whole thing as a spectrum instead, but I doubt that nuance will ever come to be common.
I mean, it's just a loaded description, as it encapsulates both the production and the artistic goals. Larian (baldurs gate 3) is 500 people and made a megahit = "AAA". However, they are still passion driven, self funded = "indie". MiniRocket (dave the diver) are a small production = indie, but were rather market driven and made a megahit = AAA. So, the only meaningful difference is, if the game has a game director that's actually creating "art", as opposed to being by the numbers. It's the same with movies, where someone as Nolan still makes high budget blockbusters, but clearly cares about making a good movie. As opposed to random directors hired by Disney to churn out the next Marvel installment, having a screenplay/actors handed to them, etc. So, to me, it's a top down (AAA) vs bottom up (indie) mindset, that is the most important. In that sense, the actual size doesn't matter as much.
in fairness to stray, the pre release trailers made it clear you were a cat in a cyberpunk fallen world with humanoids to interact with. much less of a bait and switch than dave the diver
I want to point out that AAA is not a concept of polish and design, its literally just a description of the studios budget. If AAA was an indication of polish, AAA studios would be putting out banger after banger after banger.
the thing is, they abandon AAA that we know in the 2000s. Back then, every PS2 / PS3 games never receive patches, thus resulting a finished product with sometimes a really great concept or franchises. In that sense, AAA means proper polished experience, like eating a crab buffet. Look at Half Life, GTA SA, Sims 2. When the dev want to patch things up, they must fit it in a DLC (a major content DLC). As of now, AAA is still similar to eating a crab buffet, but it's so inconsistent that you'll constantly get a fuckin raw crabs in there. What's wrong is the STANDARD. Other aspect such as interchangeable sheer size, budget, concepts are relative and interchangeable.
@@nickochioneantony9288 PS3 games did get patches, but more importantly a lack of infrastructure to patch games doesn't mean games were finished, it simply means that there was a lot more pressure to make games as stable and polished as reasonably possible before release. Plenty of games released in broken or unfinished states to varying degrees back then (see: various Sonic games, especially 06). Plus you'd sometimes get updated versions/revisions with future batches of physical copies, or a release in a different region would get a more finished and polished version of the game since the devs had some extra time to work on it (not localization changes but actual improvements from the original devs, like the Japanese versions of Wario World or Stretch Panic), or an updated version of the same game would be released separately on the same platform (e.g.: Metal Gear Solid 3: Subsistence, Doubutsu no Mori e+ in Japan). There's just not a point in time that all games were totally finished products. It never existed. The most you could say is things were _better_ in this regard in the 2000s.
All of the things you're describing were almost certainly put into Dave the Diver to get into Steam festivals. Steam runs these festivals around certain themes. There's a fishing fest, a farming fest, a card game fest, etc. All of the extra stuff is in the game to tick off a box so they can get into the Steam festival to promote the game. Festivals are the best way to get a game promoted these days, so it could be that we are seeing something like festival-driven game development. Not saying that's a good thing. It just seems like a driving force in games these days. A big budget studio pretending to be indie could pull off that strategy really well. They just need to cram all of this content into the game, apply to the festivals, and blammo, exposure.
Wow, this has to be it. The art style even looks like a potential minimalist Steam Sale style. It looks like there isn't substantial enough depth to any of those pieces for Dave the Diver to qualify, but designing around festivals is definitely a solid marketing strategy, whether that be based on artistic themes, mechanics, or demographics/politics. If you can check any box, check it.
@@LeMicronaut Yeah, and to be clear, I'm not saying I think Steam should regulate these kinds of things. Full disclosure, I am an indie game developer. I think we should get the idea more out in the open, get the public talking about it, maybe get some more awareness amongst gamers. It's similar to microtransactions in the way it breaks the cohesiveness and singular vision of games.
I get the impression with The Game Awards at least, that they give awards to indie games based on their viral popularity, not what is actually the best game. They pick whatever they think will give them the most indie cred at the time based on what the current buzz is outside the big AAA space, without alienating their mainstream AAA-loving audience.
TGA is just like any other mainstream award show, it only exists to sell games instead of celebrating games. The voters will usually just vote for whatever game they’ve heard of (or for whatever developer scmhoozed them enough leading up to the vote), not which game they genuinely thought was the best, and most likely a majority of the voters hadn’t played even half of the games that were up for nomination. TGA is a joke and shouldn’t be treated with any reverence by the larger gaming community.
@@RwnEsper It's not in the pocket of anyone or doing anything for a specific purpose. The jury is journalists around the world. It's just that. People who don't really play things that aren't the most marketed games.
Stray wasn't "viral" popularity, it was popular because it had a publisher (Annapurna) who spent a lot of money promoting it in the press. it's far more mainstream industry than "viral buzz"
I just finished Dave the Diver last week. I'd agree that they went a little overboard on the minigames, but most of them were fairly short, refreshing breaks from the typical cycles you go through in the game. The fish farm also absolutely does not make it so that you don't need to dive, at least not without dedicating tons of money and time towads upgrading it and collecting the appropriate fish roe (which is a lot, and they are't guranteed to drop). I think DtD is the way it is because of scope creep. The devs probably just kept thinking "hey, this'd be a neat thing to add to the game" and eventually ran out of appropriate places to add said things given the sheer volume of them. The farming was annoying, I'll give you that, but I have very few problems with the rest of the game.
Yeah the fish farm absolutely doesn't negate the need to dive, especially since you need to keep diving to fill it up. It's there to get even more fish than you usually would so long as you check it once in a while. Late game you need soooo much fish to level up the dishes and it helps me double my produce passively. You can also completely ignore it too, if it's something you don't care for, once they get full enough it just stops producing. The fish remain there until you decide to do something about it, I think the main point is to help struggling players who keep losing all their fish later on as more dangers show up. Just so you have SOMETHING to fall back on and not get softlocked selling normaki. But I personally use it to double my fish production on top of what I'm getting from diving. You'll always be diving though, it's not like you'll be doing anything else during the day..
@@Noimnotathing exactly, the minigames makes the cycle of Dive-Cook-Repeat less of a chore, but w/e, she justs wants another farming upgrade game without personality
@@Noimnotathingi'll start by saying one of the best endie games i played last year was dredge (the eldritch horror fishing game) and one of it's greatest strengths was the consistency of the mechanics and the chilling sudden atmosphere changes. DTD really feels like they picked random slips of paper out of a hat for the second half of the game, and while it's not that bad and most of them don't overstay their welcome, it really tanked my overall enjoyment of the whole thing.
I think the moment in Stray that made me realize you're not playing as the cat, you're playing as the little robot that just conveniently has a cat bus, was when the little robot pulls out a flashlight.... because cat's are notoriously bad at seeing in dimly lit areas!
For me, Pizza Tower undoubtedly was the indie game of the year for 2023. One designer/artist, one programmer, completely crowdfunded. Pizza Tower's the kind of game you play like, 4 times for a complete play-through. It wasn't even nominated for best independent game, just best debut indie game, which it didn't win. That went to Cocoon, which was published by Annapurna.
Also we can't repeat this enough but Cocoon was made by (and I'm quoting from the game's website) Limbo and Inside's lead gameplay designer, this guy made two of the biggest indie games at the peak of the indie scene, how is Cocoon a debut?!
It's insane to realize how few people finish games, specifically games that they still say they enjoy. BUT The important thing is that they enjoy things.
Stray winning was batshit crazy. Tunic, Sifu or Cult of the Lamb were far more insteresting and I'm a Cat person , also from Brazil but not named Brazil
And Neon White is one of my favorite games of all time. Honestly speaking Stray was my least favorite out of all the options. It feels like if they gave a bodybuilder award to a fat guy because he had the most amount of people taking pictures
Given the estrogen soaked judges and bizarre cat fanaticism I wasn't surprised at all. I'm never going to act like cat people are normal. But all of the awards shows are dumb anyway. It's not hard to know what's going to win.
@@JZStudiosonline bro what do trans ppl have to do with this. didn't even know the judges were trans. fact still remains that stray won because of it's popularity though.
I overall agree with you but Stray was never intended to be a movement platformer. It's for all intents and purposes a point and click adventure modernized with button prompts instead of clicks. Which is what I expected going in. Hell, I don't even think I'd count it as a puzzle platformer.
To me, an indie game is a passion project that is self-funded, crowd-funded, and maybe self-published. Something like Cave Story. I do not think it matters whether it subverts the AAA industry or not. It could just be a clone of Mega Man but have tweaks to make it the game the developer always wanted it to be. If I ever make a game, this is what I would do. In my head is the Golden Axe and Double Dragon sequel that has not been released yet, that is exactly what I would try to bring to life.
Look, as much as I think an Indie prize is great, I would actually point to Stray as the most obvious case of "What bleeping budget standards are you using"? Personally? There's a lot of categories I'd want Geoff to make. As far as the Indie game mess (and it is one) goes? EXPLICIT. BUDGETARY. STANDARDS. And two categories. Indie Game: $15 million US or less. That's a LOWER budgetary standard than the Indie Spirits currently have for movies (which is currently $30 million) but still communicates the basic idea without being too anal. (However laudatory or not you think it is, Dave the Diver IS probably within that range somewhere.) AA Game: $16-74 million US. Stray is, ABSOLUTELY, within this range, for the record. As for a pure uncritical "self-funded" definition? As much as I want to support that, there's a huge, Megalopolis sized, hole in that logic. If your self-funded movie costs almost as much as Ant-Man, are you really an "Indie Movie"? Really?
@@Volvagia1927 I understand where you're coming from and I personally don't even factor in the award show criteria because I don't pay attention to them. I like your budget constraints. As for your last question, I guess I would consider Copollas Megalopolis an indie film, but that is purely my subjective take. I'm more interested in it being a passion project. It could be great or it could be the gaming equivalent to The Room, which is kind of great in its own way. What if games were categorized by their launch price?
Bro!!! Make that dream happen! Make that double dragon + golden axe project!!!! I wishlist that baby and wait for it to go on sale for 90% discount!!!!!
it's actually really simple: indie, like the word it originated from, "independent", should be classified if there's a publisher or not. If Steven Spielberg burns his own money on equipment, hires his local childhood neighborhood, and films an entire feature length film and publishes, that's an Steven Spielberg independent movie. if he uses a studio money its not in game terms it means that star-citizen is indie while hi-fi rush is a AAA
I think this idea misses the category of games that have a publisher that themselves aren't very big, or have a more complex publisher situation. Stardew Valley was originally published by Chucklefish Games (though the rights have since been returned to ConcernedApe after the game's success), and that's one of the posterchildren of indie games. I do still agree that there should be some barrier based on assistance, but not all publishers are equal in what assistance they can provide.
The term is borrowed from the music industry, where "indie" did not mean free from a record label, but rather that the record label that published a bands music wasn't beholden to any shareholders, but rather independently owned. In the gaming world it does get rather complicated though. Because both under the definition I put forward and the definition Rockmanbalboa put forward, Valve games would end up being classified as indie, as would Baldur's Gate 3
Ok but under this defenition consider this, TF2 a valve game would be considered indie since they published it themselves even if its clearly not, And something like ULTRAKILL no matter how much of an indie title it obviously is isn't indie since it has a publisher in New Blood
I see it as more “Capitalist” then Hollywood… all great things in America eventually end up falling into full Capitalism. Overtime it becomes more corporate, soulless until it gets completely gutted after the precious shareholders (whom are more important the health of the world) don’t see improved profits over the year before. Ahh life.
I find it fascinating why "What is an Indie Game" seems so hard to answer. The core definition is a game made by a studio that is independent from a bigger label, publisher, board etc. Game commissioned by publishers are almost always made with the thought of publishing them from the ground up. They're made based on currently popular themes, genres, monetization schemes etc. In contrast, most if not all Indie Games are made because someone just wanted to make them. And sure, both are not mutually exclusive. You find AAA passion projects (Death Stranding) or trend chasing indies. But it's not the norm. The distinction between AAA (and AA etc.) and Indie is less the spirit behind a project and just how it was made, marketed, financed etc. So no, Dave the Diver is not an indie game, it was announced, made and published by Nexon, a giant industry publisher. Heck, it was initially meant to collab with NatGeo, too... Though kudos to Nexon for launching the game under a sub-brand so people treat it as an indie game...
it's not. If it was made prior to Xbox Live Arcade it's any game made by a small studio. If it was made post Xbox Live Arcade then it's any game made by a small studio and either self-published or published by a studio like Limited Run Games or Devolver. also Nexon did NOT want people to treat it as an indie game, they specifically went out of their way to call out Geoff for even nominating it and I guarantee if it won then they would have refused the award.
I do think you're being too hard on Dave the Diver and Stray (idk I found Stray's story to be surprisingly compelling?). But also fully agree with your larger argument that they are nowhere near the best indies of their years, and that the only indies that get to be celebrated on big stages are the ones that are AAA-adjacent or ones that go viral for this or that reason. It's been a major bugbear for me for years.
I agree, but I think the analysis fails to capture the more general reasons for this. This is not a problem specific to Indie games, it's not a problem specific to games in general. Think about the Oscars. Often, very good movies win Oscars, but basically every year, there are absolute gems left out, simply because they aren't big enough. These types of award shows reward popularity and quality does not guarantuee popularity. The whole concept of an indie category at the game awards is kind of bonkers, because indie as a genre came up specifically because there were games with niche audiences that were successful despite being low profile, where low profile is the exact opposite of what you need at the awards. The question then becomes if it wouldn't be better just not to have an indie category there, but that's also not a good solution, as monolithic circle jerks of the bigshots in the industry are already far too common. I'm not sure if this problem has a solution, especially since indie already has such a loose definition that trying to exclude anything based on a limited number of metrics would leave many classics outside the definition that would generally be accepted as indie.
Stray was such a nice vibe to play. It reminds me of Journey or Brothers: A Tale of Two Sons - they're chill with just enough gameplay to keep me engaged. They're not hard but not every game needs to be hard. Sometimes, I want to inhabit a painting and take in the atmosphere.
As a cat person, Stray is very soothing to watch someone else play, but when it came time to actually buy an animal-based game, I went for Untitled Goose Game.
Indie just means made by an independent studio. So no publisher or outside funding and not big enough to be a publisher. It has nothing to do with style. And then there's the plague that is Indie-style games, where big companies try to mimic what indie ends up being to make a buck.
It's not even just big companies, there's plenty of indies imitating indies. I can say one of my favorite indies from last year was basically a mashup of two really popular indies-Vampire Survivor and Hades. Which worked out perfectly since I disliked those two games for very different reasons but ended up really enjoying the new game heavily inspired from both.
@@goldman77700 Trying to copy success is common. Sometimes it's actually just an inspiration and not a desire to clone. "I can do this but better!" is a good thing. My issue is with big corpo wanting to cash in and ending up being something soulless. Kind of like chinese game clones.
Thank you! I don't understand how "what is an indie game?" a difficult question to answer, it has nothing to do about the feeling of the game or the message or how personal it is It's just a game developed by an independent developer. They can be good or bad, personal or not, derivative or not, it doesn't matter It can be the most unoriginal thing and be indie if it was developed by an independent developer
"Cats see the human world as a puzzle platformer" is an interesting idea though, and the game does get it across very powerfully, even if the puzzle platformer part is rather standard mechanically.
30:50 Why do they have problem answering the question? It's a game made by a small studio or by a single programmer as a hobby, definitely not by a huge company with hundreds of workers.
Sounds like Dave the Diver would've been a fantastic yakuza-like game if all those bonkers minigames were optional EDIT: I haven't played the game. I'm basing my thoughts on the information in the video
I didn't get this until I watched the video lol holy heck, I didn't know that was in the game. I thought it was merely a diving and fishing game. It's like Yakuza but with a gun to your head forcing you to play the minigames 😂 shoehorning a rhythm game within a diving game has got to be a flex somewhat.
Most of those mini-games are optional, and the ones that are not are really short story segments to add variety. Some of the mini-games are undeveloped (the stealth section and farming games are probably the worst.) But I don't think it was as bad as she says in the video. That said the thing I tend to value most in games is novelty so I had fun with it.
Dave the Diver was great, but a lot of the side content did feel unnecessary and I would have preferred the spent more time making the restaurant and diving more varied, and less time adding in superfluous side activities.
First, I'm not a cat person... The thing that you're missing about Stray is that if you get invested in the story and not worry about analyzing the actual gameplay itself... and you engage with its mechanics, it makes you think about the characters in the game like a cat would... By having robots instead of humans, you dissociate yourself from the characters despite the fact that they're as human like as can be. So much so that there's a strong chance they're literally humans in robot bodies. Do you care about them? No. You're a cat. You go around forming temporary friendships and then move on. Just like a cat. And psychologically it feels basically natural. You just want to get out of the city. But then there's B-12. You can absolutely form an emotional bond with B-12 as a character, and you find out B-12 is a human mind in a drone's body. Just as cats can form a strong bond with a human and not give a literal shit about any other humans in a sociopathic manner, that can happen to the player if you the layer lets it happen, stops worrying and just engages with the game for what it is and what it's trying to be. While you don't embody the cat physically, the game does its best to manipulate you psychologically into embodying the cat mentally.
@@wiktor3727 I do like Cult of the Lamb, but I gotta say it was pretty rough on release. Lots of bugs and missing features. But they have been steadily updating it, adding a lot of features, content and QOL along the way. They're even adding a co-op mode which is pretty cool.
Dude. Neon White. It's in my top 3 favorite games of all time. Based on what I heard about Stray, I refuse to believe it could be better than FUCKING NEON WHITE
I think defining "Indie" as "not AAA" is a genius definition, honestly. it pushes into the spotlight the main reason people value "indie games" in the first place. Hell, it's why the label is called "independent"; in order to be "independent" you have to be contrasted against being "dependent", the question then becomes: Dependent on what? I believe the answer to that question is where the real juice lies. Furthermore, I believe the answer is found in the economic forces at play during the creation of the game (yes I am weird). I think, being "Independent" is a recognition of the freedom of the authors involved in the game, resulting from not having to answer to someone else. The only reason to answer to someone else in this way is, basically, money. In this I am talking about the people ACTUALLY making the game, not the company. If the creative team is making a game, and they are just following their own drive, it counts as independent. The issue then comes from figuring out how many of the decisions of the game were made with the goal of selling a bunch of copies. Capitalism worms its way through every creative endeavor so it's bound to be present in all creative works which are placed in the market and thus transformed into commodities to be compared with other games they must compete with for the gamers' money. With this in mind, we must return to our original equation: Indie =/= AAA In this equation, "indie" gives up its own definition for that of the inverse of "AAA" which prompts the question: What defines a AAA game? The answer, as I see it, is that a AAA game is a commodified game; meaning, a game MEANT to be "A game" one in a rack of games, its own specific characteristics transformed into indistinct features, interchangeable with that of any other "Game" in the rack; it's no longer "THIS game" it's just one of many options for you to choose. In essence: a AAA game = any AAA game, otherwise, competing with one another wouldn't be possible. It's why metrics like "hours per dollar" become a necessity. You could have spent that money in any other game, which would give you indistinct "fun", so the ONLY way to differentiate them is through those kinds of metrics. Let us use this definition back in our original equation: Indie =/= AAA Meaning: Indie =/= Commodity An indie game, with this definition, would be a game that is not meant to compete with other games. A game that, at its core, refuses to give up its unique nature, refuses to become undifferentiated "fun". It's incomparable to other indie games because you can't really thread a cohesive definition that would put them all within the same box, and in that very impossibility, they refuse to be commodities, they are NOT AAA games. It doesn't mean selling an indie game makes it not indie anymore, it doesn't mean they can't be compared with other indie games; rather, it just means that the forces that create the impulse to create undifferentiated, interchangeable products for a market, are absent or at the very least contained. In this way, no game can ever be "truly indie" except those which are not meant to be released (alla "the beginners' guide) but the label "indie" is still useful as a way to distinguish that feeling of a game which cannot be compared to others, not because it has more features, or lasts longer, or is updated more frequently, but because it simply is itself. Anyways idk if it makes sense to anyone else. TL;DR: the video made me think a lot and I thank you for that, first time viewer and definitely gonna binge all your other videos
I'd say independent just means "not owned by a massive company." Animal Crossing isn't an indie game, even if it could be. The creatives might not have been hampered, but.
My problem with this definition is that it would include games which were never called indie prior Like the tales of series were never AAA games But they certainly weren't indie And they certainly do not fit the reason why you think things that aren't AAA are indie
@@MetronaJ I mean here is the thing, a game is a definition of when tech and creative minds create a vision. See the word vision? Well what has been going on in the AAA scene, most visions that the companies wants are being ruined by multiple DEI teams, people who found your original vision insulting to them and therefore demands change for "added profit" we as gamers want to see what the original vision was and playthrough it and then review it, but since we can't really see that the game becomes nothing to us other than *hey Look at this other teams vision for the original teams vision* games like stray and DtD while certainly not praise worthy are good games, not perfect or masterpieces but the original vision was there with the team and that's why we enjoy them. A game for everybody is a game for nobody, stray garnerd the right audience therefore garnerd people who liked the game and wanted to shed some light on it, but heres the catch: when something becomes popular the constant need to consume it because it's classified as a norm won't be everyones taste, the fear of missing out or needing to consume is a problem that can't be exactly fixed. I played stray and enjoyed it and since I could review it without needing to feel obligated to do so by DEI teams I gave it a good review, not my taste, could use more creative outlets but certainly for others that enjoy something that has a level of quality in it's enviromental story telling
@@orge9711 Oh, stfu about DEI bullshit, when games were bad in the past, people didnt claim it was some kind of a conspiracy to ruin games. You people act like consultancy groups like sweetbaby inc are going around like an armed militia, holding a gun to some poor writers head, forcing them to turn every single charachter into a minority
One problem is the nebulous definition of 'indie'. I mean, independent doesn't always mean small - it just means not acquired by a larger company. Valve, the owners of freaking Steam, are independent. But not, we would generally agree, indie. So what defines indie, normally it is a game made by a person or small team with limited resources. Dave the Diver doesn't fit this second definition at all, and also is just really a chaotic and baffling design.
Not to mention citizen sleeper, Nobody saves the world, Neon White, Tunic, Sifu, VAMPIRE SURVIVORS. I could argue the case for any of those or Signalis for best indie, at least compared to Stray.
Neon White is my pick, as do all of you with your other preference. But arguably, Stray receives a really great publication, and it really clicked with a lot of audience because the game is accessible and virtually unique. I mean, you don't really see a lot of 'walking simulator' that utilizes a normal Cat. Whether anyone think the game is flawed or not immersive enough, I think it deserve the award simply because it's accessible, no nonsense, and quite creative in their conceptualization.
I think stray deserved its accolades. That’s not to say that other games didn’t also deserve to win the awards that stray did, because many of them for sure did. I agree with the previous commenter that Neon White definitely deserved awards, it’s a very polished, refined, unique, and just plain excellent game. But I do think that Stray deserved its wins, it’s a charming, well crafted, wonderful little game. Maybe not to everyone’s taste, but still a gem.
An indie game is where the developers make all the calls. Artistic choices, deadlines, story, difficulty... everything. They have a vision and staying true to that vision 100%. Regardless of what is trending, nothing needs to be approved from the outside, nothing is measured with the public. In summary, the devs are not mere workhorses here making a product born from careful calculations of a publisher based on mass appeal and market share. Profit was never the goal, but the expression of the idea. To materialize the vision. The priorities are different - staying true to the original concept, sometimes even at the cost of loosing reception. They view their product as a mirror and would not bear to look if they wouldn't stay true to it all the way. Today, companies realized that there's a valid paying market for indie games, meaning there's money to be had. So they want in, but since their reason is not the expression of an idea, but profits, everything seems forced - their vision is not born on it's own, it's simply a plan to sate a need for money. That need is the organic part here that came first and the idea is the result - not the other way around. A plan purposefully generated and constantly altered based on where the gains are, for means of financial success. Thus the best they can do is an imitation, still without a soul, just a calculation - the reason why they came here in the first place. There was nothing banging inside anyone head to be let out, it's just an execution of well-organized tasks. These publishers are now hosting events to celebrate themselves in this territory as well, a place that was born in spite them. Thank you for conciously pinpointing this phenomenon:)
I understand the description you're going for but this can still apply to a bunch of older AAA games too. This can even apply to some of the EA original games.
@@paulpangilinan6671 You do realised that most of these AAA games did started out as an indie games right? Or at least the company started out as indie devs and are just developing a passion project. Maybe not EA specifically, but games like Half life or Doom were developed by small team that were then either grew into a massive triple A companies or bought by massive studios.
@@zackfross98 it also applies to a lot of arcade games like Tekken, Virtua Fighter, and Dead or Alive. It also applies to Assassins Creed, L4D1, Far Cry 2, and Devil May Cry. I think uncompromising design as a descriptor for what an indie game is kinda worse than the original description of an indie game because it unintentionally lumps in too many games into indie even if it doesn't fit. Like the original Sonic games would end up counting as indie games by this description. I prefer the original, more objective, description more because at least you can just correct people on it. You will just end up with arguments using the OP's description
@@paulpangilinan6671 I would say that being "developer-driven" is one requirement for indie games and that it's just a prerequisite. Afterwards you can start going into business and corporate structure but if the game's design isn't foremost being driven by a vision it isn't really indie. It's not a hard and fast rule of what is or isn't indie, I'd say it's more like an equation that factors in budget, team size, corporate oversight, etc. but that entire formula is multiplied by x, where x is a boolean of "does the developer have full creative control?"
I don't think I agree that indie games "should" be arbitrarily counter to AAA trends. Subversiveness, newness, surprise, these aren't the only value of art. Indie games can be anything; that's part of how they create such variety of mechanics and style. But I think it's wrong to say that's the only thing they can do. Refining, replicating, practicing, elaborating, expanding-- these are all things art, be it games or stories or any other medium, can do, and they all have value, and exist as part of an ecosystem that feeds itself. If no one ever wanted to ruminate on existing trends, mechanics, and story beats, we would all be much worse off, no matter what kind of game we prefer playing. It's actually a bit maddening, because you yourself talked about wanting replication! You wanted Stray to give you the experience and atmosphere of Rain World! Is replication somehow more valid because it's replicating indie? Is it just because the 'original'-- in the form you recognize-- is newer and thus isn't "overdone" yet? Or, is it simply because that's the experience you like most, and you were disappointed to end up with something you like less? Actually, that also rubbed me wrong on the reviewer section. You criticized these game journalists... for disclosing their biases and personal favoritism toward the content of what they were reviewing. I'm sure it did taint the rest of their reviews, as did the fact that they're for-profit reviewers under publications with editors and format requirements, probably writing on shit deadlines. Do you really expect and want reviewers to cut their voice out of their reviews entirely? Or do you just find their enthusiasm on this subject embarrassing, because you don't understand "cat people" and you don't share that enthusiasm? Would you react the same if reviewers for an otome game said "I'm a sucker for cheesy romance, so as soon as I saw the first encounter with Romance Candidate 1 I was like, 'sign me up!'"? Some of these questions may seem like passive-aggressive rhetorical devices intended to make you seem or feel stupid. I mean these questions sincerely. I feel like there's things worth interrogating further in your complaints and arguments here. I don't have to agree with the conclusions you come to; the questions are, I think, still worth asking. I'll also say, game awards an entirely different kettle of fish. It's reasonable to ask them to find and hold consistent standards, if they want to be taken seriously as an industry and consumer metric. I also don't think we should ever take an industry award show as a sincere metric for any measure of quality. That may be a controversial take, and I'm not saying that I see no value in award shows at all, but invariably, these awards-- Oscars, Hugos, Pulitzer, GotY-- bend to outside pressures, profit motives, and the force of popularity, as well as the constraints of time and resources. Expecting them to be a measure of objective quality, or a way to find hidden gems or raw experimentation, is a comical exercise in futility. Games have to get popular first before they hit an award show. They're never going to have that many sharp edges, because anything too unwelcoming or unfamiliar is not going to get the wide audience interest necessary to get to an award show. It sounds to me, from your closing statements, that what you want has much less to do with what is or isn't indie, much less to do with what an award show says, and a great deal more to do with, "how do we foster the material conditions for experimentation in art to continue to thrive?" Policing or restricting the term "indie" isn't going to do that. Indie devs lean on for-profit structures like publishing and funding drives (largely) not out of greed or dispassion for their art and craft, but because they need to survive and thrive in order to make art. Freeware is dormant not because people don't care about free games and not because people don't want to make free games, but because that system is actually incredibly limiting for who can make games and what games they can make. The system as it is rewards big, polished, formulaic games because those are what make money right now, and money is the system's metric for success. If you want to see more games do other things, we need to build different systems, and that's a much broader and more complicated topic than "does having a publisher preclude you from being indie" alone.
I liked the video, and your comment definitely adds a lot to the discussion! I agree about the desire for repetition between Rain World and Stray being off-point to the message of the video - I'd say the 'desolate mysterious city' is actually *more* common in indie games than 'city with robot population' (def bc it's easier to make an empty city rather than fill it with NPCs). I think the core issue here is the apparent lack of diversity of video games. Don't get me wrong, the games are there, but they're not reaching people, and these awards aren't doing them any favors. I've tried to hunt for active blogs/websites myself that would showcase new (more underground) indie games, but to no avail. I agree about building different systems, ones that would highlight innovation, subversion and experimentation in games.
Great comment, almost exactly what I was thinking in reaction to this video, but allow me to add something else that nobody else seems to dare question. Another thing about her wish of distinguishing "indie" from "AAA" that really rubs me the wrong way is when she ascribed the indie scene as being more "queer" than triple-A. I have two things to say about that. Firstly, that is simply not true, just look at Baldur's Gate 3, The Last of Us 1 and 2, Assassin's Creed Odyssey, Saints Row, Borderlands 3... Secondly and most importantly, this partly exposes what I see as her desire to exclude certain game development personalities she dislikes from her pseudogramscian view of the "queer indie scene". This is further supported when she expressed her unrelated disdain for Jonathan Blow. The indie scene is not supposed to have a counter-hegemony to that of the triple-A scene, both in terms of gameplay polish and politics. I simply wish for a world where the likes of Michal Kovařík, Simon Chylinski and Tim Soret can be just as respected by the same audience as Nicklas Nygren (who has blocked me on twitter), Maddy Thorson and Alec Holowka (RIP).
I was a raving fan for Dave the Diver when I first started it, and your critiques were exactly what my gripes became for the second half of the game. With the farming mechanics and other features that allow you to skip past a lot of the main gameplay, the game stopped feeling like the game I fell in love with the further I progressed into it
Indie to me just means that the developers are free from a publisher or other company funding them (hell indie is just short for independent anyway). I wouldn't consider Dave the Diver as indie solely for that reason (I don't know enough about Stray to say if it technically qualifies or not). I think saying things like "indies need to be experimental" feels counterproductive. As long as the devs are making what they want to make, I don't see the issue. Some people just want to make more of the kind of things they already like, while maybe adding a twist here or there to make things interesting. Pizza Tower (which was robbed by Dave the Diver btw), Stardew Valley, the boomer shooter scene, Splitgate, Bomb Rush Cyberfunk, etc.
I never think of indie as independent from a publisher, moreso based on how big the studio was while making the game, or how much money it took to make the game. For example: Outer Wilds was picked up by the same publisher of Stray: Annapurna. They gave Outer Wilds the budget to become as good and polished as it is, but the game is still an indie game at it's core, being born from only a few people and their ideas.
Maybe even that definition is kinda closed off. I don't know if we're talking about the same thing here, but Ultrakill has a publisher, and so does Animal Well and Hotline Miami or Children of the Sun. Are they not indie games because of that?
@@gabriellacet1172 Nope. I think the problem these days is that people only think about indie and AAA (or AAAA, but that's just a buzzword used by corporations to make a AAA game seem bigger than it actually is), but games can also be A or AA as well. As soon as an indie game gets a publisher, it becomes A or AA.
@@gabriellacet1172 More As mean bigger budget and more devs working on the game, at least from what I understand. I don't think there's a clear line defining what's what
I actually liked a lot of Dave the Diver's side content. Well, not really the puzzles and games, but the farming parts. You had to actively hunt down the fish you wanted and put them to sleep after injuring them just the right amount. It becomes a bit trivial by the end game when you get very powerful tranquilizer/net guns , but early/mid game that is a major challenge. Especially for sharks or rare animals. It's like getting extra rewards for playing on hard mode.
I respectfully disagree on the fish farm compromising the actual diving core of the game. I see it as essential to maxing out the levels of the recipes since they require a TON of fish toward the last couple levels. Also the branch restaurant you open it helps provide ingredients for them, so there is a balance to it that works IMO
And I’d also like to add, I personally liked the constant stream of variety being added throughout the game, a lot of it can be ignored anyways. It’s a game that keeps on giving. But that’s just my opinion. It’s prob worth noting that I got adult ADD, so that may be part of the reason I like it.
"I see it as essential to maxing out the levels of the recipes since they require a TON of fish toward the last couple levels" they could have just made it less grindy then
@@Justcallmeaqua420 It's a perfectly valid argument. Why should a game undermine its own design and force the player to grind instead of actually engaging with the gameplay because the demand for resources increases towards the end? It's not a result of happenstance, it's designed as such. If farming is sold as a solution to the problem, but the problem is entirely driven by the devs, then they could have just... not done it? And the game would be more fun? Typically a game would do something like increase fish population (perhaps as a result of something the player did in a mission to improve the local wildlife), unlock more effective fish catching methods/items or straight up introduce bigger fish which return more resources when caught.
@@feartrain1282 The problem is that adding new mechanics 6/7ths into the game is that there's not much time to use them. Everyone's least favorite curveball ending, Xen, turned Half Life from an incredible shooter to a first person platformer at the very end. I actually like Xen, it's just jarring. The late game is when the player's skills are the most honed, and typically when the equipment/character is leveled up so they should be able to take on a challenge and pass it with flying colors.
I agree with a lot of your points, but i also think that its against the indie spirit to no call a game indie just because its doing what other games are doing instead of "rebelling"
If we go by objective definition, if they have a publisher they're not indie. However the term has indeed blurred a lot and many games can have publishers and be considered indies today. My take for a game being indie or not: 1. Does it have a publisher? If Yes, go next. If No, it's indie. 2. Did the publisher only help with marketing the game, and let the developers do whatever they want? If Yes, it's indie. If No, it's not indie. Devolver Digital is a good example of a publisher for indies, they do the marketing, but whatever it is that you're making they aren't gonna interfere, your game is your game, they're only gonna give it visibility. The don't own the game or the IP, and didn't order you to make the game, they're only giving a helping hand, you provide them information on your game, they take a look at your game to see how best to market it, and say "you sir, you sir have something special, want some help?" An indie game for me can have as much polish or high graphics the devs desire to strive for, if at the end of the day the game is all theirs, they're indie. If a game studio is owned by a big company that publishes the game, let's say uuuh Konami, whatever, and they have a studio work on a Silent Hill game. Konami owns the Silent Hill IP, Konami owns the game itself, they can cancel it at any time, Konami provides then budget, well the studio is therefore absolutely not indie. That's my take. That being said... I'm still in disbelief Stray still won when the other nominated games were Tunic, Neon White, Cult of the Lamb and HOLY SHIT SIFU WAS THERE TOO. Any of these games could've won and I'd say "Y'know what, that's deserved" without disrespect to the others cuz all of them execute what they go for flawlessly and are very different from each other. Ngl Stray had no right even being there, no hate to the devs who put work in it, but I'd replace it for Signalis. And my favorite underrated indie, Tunic. Imma cheat and mention another, Outer Wilds, and I guess I mentioned Signalis as well. Have a good day y'all.
Let's be clear about the Steam awards though. They are a complete joke because of how Valve incentivizes people to vote regardless of whether they have played or even heard of all the games listed. What happens then is people see the list of games, go "Oh yeah I've heard about/played that one" and click on whatever game is most popular. Thus you get things like Starfield winning Most Innovative Gameplay, Red Dead Redemption 2 winning Labour of Love, and The Last of Us winning Best Soundtrack.
I have to say, I don't really jive with the "no true scotsman" way to define indie games towards the end there. Sure, SOME indie games are streamlined five-hour experiences with no extra fluff, but then you have sprawling things like Terraria or Stardew that have incredibly broad scopes and get new areas and mechanics added constantly. Pseudoregalia is 100% an indie game, but the movement isn't that far off from something like Mario Odyssey. Is DUSK doing things all that different from Doom Eternal? If there was an easy dividing line between indies and AAA games, the devs you talked to wouldn't have struggled like they did. Classification of ANY large group is wiggly, and saying things "don't count" as indie for whatever reason is just setting a bad precedent IMO.
That said, thank you for the clear care and attention you give to indie gaming in general, and for the shoutouts at the end! Corru.observer sounds amazing, and I love Echo.
I feel like indie is not a useful word anymore. If a guy in his basement makes an uninspired, lazy candy crush anime game is that indie? I don't care, it's garbage. I dunno. Everything is art, and most of it is bad but there will always be people making good art. And if a corporation by some miracle makes good art then I guess that's fine??
I liked his sentiments on prioritizing personally manageable, communal impacts, but it was odd hearing Droqen separate Hades (Supergiant Games) from Indie- I'd assume because of its success and praise. The studio has definitely grown over the decade, but I'd reckon they were basically business savvy indie developers who broke away from Electronic Arts and just stuck at it for years.
@@joppa-recoilerI see where you're coming from, but I think something funny is that I just love finding stuff like that sometimes. I'm not gobbling it down 24/7, so when I do stumble across some bizarre, undercooked project of a game, it makes me go "Hm, this guy had some level of talent and passion to construct this, but it's missing something. I wonder what he could pull off if his gaps were filled in by a teammate...!" I've made a few friends this way I think, not any big projects yet though. Someday I hope...!
Pseudoregalia is so much more limited in scope than Mario Odyssey though. And so much more personal, singular, pared down the the essentials, with a story that is purposely kept as vague as possible. It's almost impressionism. What I love about Pseudoregalia is that it's like they asked "what if our game's movement was as joyful and expressive as Mario 64 and Mario Odyssey, but completely solitary, alienating, and open to interpretation?" Where else could you get that? Only *those people* could have made *that* game.
I honestly love Dave the Diver's nonsense. Every time I see a minigame, I do a lil squeal. Whether its petting a whale or that one leahs chan scene, I love it. If it was just diving, it would get quite boring.
One of the major issues with DtD's dialogue is that it commits the eternal cardinal sin of breaking the flow. It's one thing to have the game pause and comment on a room or an obstacle, maybe adding a clue to get the player thinking. It's another thing to halt the game upon a solution or change on the situation to comment on it when it is also obvious. I know a lot of people who play games now-a-days don't tend to explore and experiment as we used to be conditioned to do in the past, but they aren't stupid, blind, and deaf. They can see when a door opens right in front of them. It's why things like RE4 Remake having yellow paint might seem condecending, but it is quite an excellent way to convey information to a player base not used to exploration while not breaking the flow or railroading them. If they really wanted Dave to comment on the player's progress, they could have simply added the text to a little speach bubble that appears upon solving a puzzle section. Or maybe just a little subtitle pops up at the bottom of the screen. Just anything but pausing the entire game so that they can bring up a dialogue box and a sprite, and have Dave do a rather long comment on it all. It completely kills the player's momentum, it kills the flow of the gameplay, and that is bound to not only make the player feel like they aren't fully in control but also like they just can't fully get into the game as they are constantly taken out of it. It's so painful to see, especially as this is a solved formula.
Literally just follow what Call Of Duty is doing when it comes to in-game dialogues, let alone FNAF: Security Breach. No pauses between text after text.
most recently, I've been playing through thecatamites' library, and watching him grow as a developer from Space Funeral to his new Anthology of the Killer series has been one of the most inspirational experiences I've ever had. His intentional messiness makes me feel like *I* can make something, it made me start getting messier with my own art, and after finishing Anthology of the Killer I literally started drawing up a zine because the game had built up so much creative excitement in me that I HAD to do something with it.
excellently written video! i agree with what you're saying here completely, and feel like you summarise and communicate your thoughts on these topics in a really eloquent way. instant subscribe!
I LOVE Dave the Diver BECAUSE of minigames and other gimmicks that later down the line get automated (particularly the vegetable/egg one). All farming sections make getting fish and ingredients much easier to cook new unlocked dishes. Some minigames are optional, yes, which is why I got a Switch version, not the Steam one, because I don't like to worry about completing a game 100% just to show off that plaque on my Steam profile. When diving became redundant, I waited for the Dredge and Godzilla DLC, because all the dangerous new fish, chases and various boss fighting mechanics, including secret ones, were so much FUN and different from the usual gameplay loop! Since the launch of the game last November, I became obsessed with it when usually I would spend hundreds of hours just on Splatoon 3. Guess that simple at first glance diving game gave my autistic brain a lot of stimulation. Which I think is the point of it: the game is probably targeted at autistic people like me, who like to micromanage, who love to be involved in constantly new changing mechanics: from seahorse racing and weapon crafting to Tamagotchi lookalike and completing multiple quests! To some, it may be overwhelming. To me, someone who loves the tropical ocean aesthetics and various awesome mechanics, it was awesome to play through it over and over again. What DID however conserned me was how the game was advertised throughout the Game Awards show. I remember watching Vinny Vinesauce reaction to the whole show, and by the end of it, no wonder he seemed annoyed by the meer mention of this game: about like 4 or 5 ads showcasing this game would just pop up non stop. And I feel like some people would feel the same, which is a shame, as I found a lot of positives about this game and would recommend it to someone who might be into stuff like this just like me. Anyways, Pizza Tower being robbed by some Cocoon game was something that TRULY REALLY pissed me off in regards to the game awards shows lmao
I didn't play Dave the diver or Stray, but I can respect the honesty and integrity. It's not easy to go against the crowd when it comes to games that everyone is raving about.
The Stray Section feels like so much coping... I do agree that it isn't the most revolutionary gameplay wise. Yet, art isn't about how the technique is so groundbreaking, art is about how effective is at creating an emotional connection with the observer/enjoyer. In that sense, Stray is quite revolutionary, since it allows to experience something that hasn't been able to capture until recently. So yeah, I'm sorry you couldn't achieve catharsis with Stray, and I hope one day there would be a game that allows you to get to that emotional level.
What is this something that hasn't been able to be captured in games until recently? There have been plenty of games recently and throughout history that build a connection between the player and the main character through gameplay mechanics (Dark Souls, S.T.A.L.K.E.R., Celeste, Spec Ops: The Line, etc.), so the game really isn't revolutionary at all in the way that you're describing it.
@@spidermouse1 being able to behave like a cat in an almost realistic way (given some artistic liberties) and view the world through the eyes of such animal. That, for what I know, it hasn’t been done prior.
@@tobi1314 There have been a good amount of games that have the player interacting with the world in the way an animal would, and with a much higher degree of player control than in Stray. Some that I can think of are: - Carrion - Aliens vs Predator 2010 - The Shelter series - Gato Roboto - Rain World, which was mentioned in this video And probably a lot more that I haven't played. Also, the point about the player not having enough control over the cat still stands. The cat might be able to interact with the environment realistically, but that doesn't change the fact that the player themselves are just looking for the next ledge and then pressing x.
The emotional connection seems to stem from the existence of the cat, mostly. To which I say, that's not new, nor revolutionary, nor does it make a great game. How does including a cat equal revolutionary deep emotional connection?
Despite being made by Capcom of all things, I think Shinsekai: Into the Depths will be massively up your alley. It's everything Dave the Diver isn't; messy visuals, focused on a central premise and perhaps most importantly of all, quiet and contemplative. It embodies the spirit of indie and flew massively under the radar, an underappreciated gem that could never see the stage of an awards show. Great video!
This is an incredible video. I went down a philosophical rabbit hole while on an edible(lmao i know how silly that sounds) wondering why I didn't like these highly acclaimed games, despite seemingly being the target audience. Your video randomly showed up in my recommends. You articulated exactly my issues with these indie games, the game awards, and why gaming is such a special, magical medium. Games media wants to be taken seriously as an art form, yet they focus on the safest, blandest games. Thanks for the video. ❤
Oh my god I have never felt a video so much in my life. I found myself agreeing more and more with everything you said. I bought Stray because everyone was saying it was like Rain World, and was EXTREMELY dissapointed.
What I love about indie games is that people can take their little weird idea that doesn't seem at all marketable on paper and let you experience it. Like even if the result isn't very good quality as long as the price is fair I find it delightful to see what people can come up with. In general my favorite art is the kind that gives you an experience you'd never have expected to have.
Makes me think a bit of Cookie Cutter and the lead dev's intentions behind that game. He went over a hundred interviews with possible publishers before he found one that was comfortable with letting that game be what it is and not make it more marketable. There's not many games out there where the main character is a somewhat chubby angry android lady with a chelsea cut and a delight for violence setting out to save her lover in a very colorful sci-fi/cyberpunk dystopia inhabited by amorous skeleton robots, magical androids, chunky toad people, a Hindu demon with a belly mouth and a weapon selection consisting of a chainsaw, a plasma cannon and a motorbike (among some others). He wanted to make something that is really *his*. Not here to reinvent the wheel but to make something born of his love and tastes in media.
It's always sad to see game awards were there are multiple greats nominees but in the end it's just the more popular one that wins. In 2022, all other nominees were much better than Stray (especially Tunic because it has an alien language you actually have to understand yourself)
Cat person here. Stray having a cat avatar wasn't why the gameplay resonated with us. It was all the extra details that made me feel like I was role-playing as a cat. I've completed the game twice so I know my enjoyment wasn't hype blindness. On the other hand, I've tried playing dishonored 3 times and I never get more than a few hours in before I feel bored by the clunky movement and uninstall.
So… when I talk to myself, I say things like “Let’s go.” “You can do this.” “Come on Danielle.” So it’s not bad writing to have a character talk to themselves by saying “Let’s” instead of “I.” Maybe I watched and read too much LOTR and took on a Sméagol element to my personality, but I’m pretty sure I remember talking to myself while looking in the mirror at a super young age, so I think it’s just what came naturally to me. I disagree with many, many things you said about Dave the Diver, but those are opinions based on your personal taste, which are fine to disagree on. This was the one that I felt was unfair- calling something bad writing, when it was completely fine.
Great video! Both reviews of games were humorous and informative at the same time. Second half is thought provoking and made me question myself what indie really is. Hope you will get more recognition since your work is wort it
Despite all the disclaimers that this isn't supposed to be gatekeepy or judgmental, I'm finding that every such disclaimer... is followed up by something that sounds very much gatekeepy and/or judgmental. Or at least very patronizing in a "well, I guess it's fine if you like these baby games" way. It all just comes off a lot like the "anti-casual" "hardcore gamer" attitude that unfortunately manifests in communities like the Dark Souls fandom. And I don't understand the point of putting down some games to lift up others. Why couldn't this video have literally just been "If you liked Stray, please check out Rain World" or something? Indie games are thriving. Another Crab's Treasure isn't viral "just because", it's a genuinely good game too and one made by a fully independent studio. Dead Cells is literally still one of the top 100 on the Steam charts and Motion Twin is a freaking worker's co-op. Crab Champions is made by one guy who composed Crab Rave once, got internet famous... And then decided to just do his own thing and somehow produced one of the best third person shooters in recent memory as a solo dev. The overwhelmingly positive list on Steam is packed from top to bottom with truly indie games. And small, innovative, eccentric games that absolutely leaned into being unconventional? They're absolutely killing it on this list. I'm looking right now. Chants of Sennaar, Hylics, Baba is You, Balatro... The list just keeps going and going and going. On the flipside, Baldur's Gate 3 might be a big-budget "triple-i" title, but it was still made without some giant publisher breathing down people's necks and telling them to take fewer risks. It's gone mainstream despite being in a very, very niche genre, because it's that damn good. Same goes for something like Hades II on a smaller scale. These games aren't compromising themselves for mass appeal despite their high production values. And then there are devs who really do just WANT to do popular things because they like to play those popular things - say what you will about Palworld and "originality", but right down to the literal code of the game being held together by duct tape and the way they scraped together a dev team by taking chances on complete unknowns, it's built on the bones of nothing but the scrappiest and most authentic indie energy. Also, it just kind of seems like the position of award shows is being way overvalued here to begin with. Last I checked, the Game Awards weren't really taken seriously in a broader sense. The voting round that put Starfield in an award was literally a 4chan meme vote and basically purely sarcastic, but that hasn't been mentioned once here. I think Stephanie Sterling's take of "just don't take these awards seriously because they're not seriously anything beyond advertisement shows, and they've never been any different" is the correct one, frankly.
I mean I play The Game Awards with a BINGO card, I am definitely not taking them seriously :) What I think you're missing is that any list of deservingly successful indie games like the one you posted contains a heavy survivorship bias. By definition, they are the ones that made it. DUSKERS for example is a far better roguelike than Dead Cells and has less than 1% of the Steam reviews, ULTRA ULTRA had to close down after the criminally underrated ECHO, Signs of the Sojourner has just 133 reviews on Steam despite being one of the best indie games released in the last 5 years. If you're simply looking at the successes, you're not seeing the full picture.
@@PixelaDay Okay, but what part of that requires tearing some games down to prop those up? Like I said. Why not make a video about "go check out DUSKERS and ECHO and Signs of the Sojourner, these shouldn't be forgotten even though other games are taking all the viral hype"? What do you achieve with what really just comes across as a sort of... Highlandering of the indie game field? We can enjoy all of these games. It doesn't have to be a competition. In fact, it seems counterproductive to treat it like one. You know what I actually love about indie releases nowadays? The "here, check out our friends" section that usually involves better publicized games shouting out lesser known ones. That's great. It's led me to discover new stuff to wishlist and pick up in my monthly Steam hoovering. I would love it if videos just told me "Hey, if you picked up Dave the Diver, have you considered these lesser known titles that are actually pretty great?" I recently got lucky and found a cute game... by accident. I was looking at the shadow drop of EA classics on the store, and while the dev said that having so many titles dumped on the store buried her game off Popular New Releases... I literally only found it because I was checking out the EA drop and scrolled down past the line of retro games. So of course I did what came naturally: Bought Potions: A Curious Tale just to support the solo dev, in the same cart as all the odd little retro EA titles I came to pick up in the first place. Because why not both? Why not both. Both is good. Also, the point was just that these games vastly outnumber AAA titles in the list of the most well-liked games. That's all.
@@FelisImpurrator From a random stranger on the internet: Would you be interested in hearing of some indie games (already out and upcoming) of which I suspect many have not heard of them? I'll give three freebies: My Familiair, Zet Zillions and Loco Motive.
The funny thing is that the term "indie" has gone the same exact route in the music industry and not just once but in repeating cycles. We never learn and repeat the same mistake. I feel like we are at the end of a cycle and a design revolution is imminent and coming
And to be fair, this is often just as much of a problem with users as it is with the presenters of these game awards. The reason bland, least-common-denominator design is popular with AAA developers is because it sells, and the reason it tends to win awards is because it's popular with users. If people didn't vote for Dave The Diver as Best Indie Game, it wouldn't win the Steam award for Best Indie Game. Yes, we can argue that it should never have been on the ballot, but if people had voted for Do Not Feed The Monkeys 2099, then that's what would've won.
You are talking about what is being called "triple i". I think it formed it has formed because AAA games cost $200 mil & AA cost over $50 mil. So, some smaller games that used to be called indie moved up a level into the few million $ range.
Finally someone who think the same on Stray ! Even though I'm a cat people game design is no joke for me : these people have just took advantage of the toxoplasma gondii cat people are parasited with.. Also as a Cat people, like living with 11 cats, i can safely say that the animation is not that good, especially the targeted feeling of a playing a living cat. Spyro was better animated. Good animation is not just about having good animations parts, transitions are important.
I think the missing language here is 'AA' - a game with AAA sensibilities, done on a lower budget. They're appropriating the now lucrative term 'indie' (for something they don't control), and applying it to what we used to call AA (something they do control). The game awards don't have an indie category, they have a AA category - actual indies still aren't invited. And I don't think it's a coincidence that, as game awards have gotten bigger and bigger, the term AA seems to be dying out even as those games get more and more awards.
God I wish Hellblade: Senuas Sacrifice didn't bury all it's greatness in AAA sensibilities. Stopped playing when they tried to break up the gameplay with some torch puzzles or something, but it was a real loss.
The discussion about Dave the Diver and Stray having an excellent starting premise that it later abandons in favour of something less appealing reminded me of watching Disney's "Dinosaur" (2000) as a kid after seeing the entirely nonverbal and cinematic opening sequence in the trailer, only to find out it was a essentially a quippy prehistoric family adventure movie for the next hour.
Haven't watched the last section yet, maybe there's a big picture reason you're so critical of these games, but I think it's a unfair to say "All these people enjoyed Stray, and I didn't for valid reasons, so the game isn't good and they're all cat crazed idiots" It's fine that you didn't enjoy the game, but that may have made you biased when analysing and presenting it. For example, you pointed at a lot of game tropes implying they were a negative, but you never explained why for many of them. Simple side quests aren't inherently bad unless you personally dislike them, and they're there to get you to explore the interesting level design that you never mentioned Speaking of which, you talked about the movement mechanics without mentioning the level design. I'm sure I don't need to explain this, but those two things are deeply interconnected. Stray's movement is simple because its levels often aren't Maybe you were expecting something incredibly out-of-the-box because you got reminded of rainworld. If Stray advertised itself as some unique and niche game, then I could see why recogniseable elements would be bad by default. But it wasn't advertised like that, of course. The opening segment wasn't a rainworld reference, it was a brief tone setter
@@willuigi64 The linear levels definitely can be, I'm more talking about like the slums or the anthill where it's very vertical, and it's not always clear what you can jump to
As a person who studied the game industry at uni, the literal definition of an indie game is a game with a small budget created by a small development team. Triple A is the exact opposite. Dave the Diver is not an indie game by definition. The way you describe Stray as a "shittier big game" is what you call a Double A game.
Stray really coulda been a gif of a cat But anyways, if the game had had a smaller budget, maybe with less pressure from on high corporate, it could've been a better game Why'd they start making the game? Probably, because somebody said "look, cats are so graceful and cool and stuff, wouldn't it be neat to make really great movement animations for a cat, and we can port what we learn into future projects?" And they done did that! For an indie dev, that's probably the point where they go "ok, I've learned a lot, now lets go give players an obstacle course to play in with their new cat model" But no These guys still had budget So their conversation probably went "ok, we've got the model, now where's the game" And thus their amazing jumping cat model was sidelined in favor of the most atmospheric puzzle solving game they could think up As opposed to the, arguably much more fun thing it could've been, which is a parkour platformer sorta thing Maybe with a cutsie, cat person's dream house art style, with just a lot of things to play with as a cat Coulda had the joke be that cats always land on their feet, so if your cat jumps into a ceiling fan, or falls and hits a bar on the way down, they go into an exaggeratedly funny spin, but somehow land perfectly Or maybe gone with that one pigeon shitter simulator, or untitled goose game, where the goal is to make your humans lives miserable by trying to trip them, hide the tv remote, knock stuff off the counter, stuff like that Or build in multiplayer and or a map maker, like zeepkist or that one marble track game, where you make parcore levels to challenge people, or cat racing All of these ideas, much more fun to play, and make better use the most likely very difficult animation they made, than.. the sitting, or pacing around as you try to solve a puzzle It's obvious the model was made for action So where's the action?
I dunno, the lowest common denominator gameplay contributed to its amazing sales... Not to say that nobody on that game had artistic vision but... Clearly, making money was a goal and actually skill based platforming is not what gets you there. BTW I played and kinda liked it because I was burned out on difficult games at the time. So the above isn't meant to insult it, more to say that games I want to love are too damn hard for me at times.
It's absurd to me that somebody could complain about TOO MUCH things to do in a GAME??? Maybe it's my ADHD brain that speaks here but what made Dave the Diver fun for me WAS the absurd amount of things to do. Once I've finished the storyline and what was left was just fishing and managing a restaurant I got bored and, well, stopped playing
The thing is that it's mostly fluff and filler. It has a lot of stuff for you to do, but most of it is not very interesting nor actually different from what you have already done. So it does an excellent job at entertaining you but you keep playing by inertia and immediately forget most of what you did. Still if you just want to distract yourself and have a chill time, I personally think it's pretty good.
I've got also adhd and i noticed for myself how that stuff just burns me out very quickly. It creates stress for me and i okay indie games to get personal stories and design, because that is extremly interesting for me. I live stay, but it's not innovative. And i put Dave the Diver on my wishlist, but i think i will take it off again, because most of the time i play games after work when i just wanna chill out.
Look, there's a comment section!
Hmm... writing comments under videos is said to boost the video in the algorithm. I wonder if that's somehow relevant here?
Let's write a comment!
Perhaps I can use this keyboard to type my comment?
I typed a comment using this keyboard!
If I press 'enter' now, it will appear underneath the video in the comment section. Let's try that!
My comment appeared under the video in its comment section!
Now I have to wait for others to read it. Hmm, should I go watch the rest of the video in the meantime?
Let's go watch the rest of the video while I wait!
Wow! The video is playing again and I'm watching it!
This is a perfect comment.
The best and greatest comment
That deserves more likes
there is now a lot of fake / subversive indie studios parading as indie, just like comicsgate is made of a few corporation plants that want you to believe they are not there to manipulate and destroy the indie scene to let some room of legitimacy to the mainstream comics, as they are publishing really bad , incompetent, boring and late books.
Hey, there's a comment and it's pinned!
The comment doesn't have many replies and it's pretty accurate and relevant to the issues discussed in the part of the video I'm at.
Since I like the comment and want to congratulate the commenter on their apt commentary, I should probably write a comment!
There's a keyboard I can use to type my comment.
Let's press enter to give this commenter a comment parodying Dave the Diver's dialogue to their comment doing the same thing but better.
I should give it a like too, to show support.
Let's hope it makes them happy!
"You're not fully in control of the cat."
So, they went for realism.
I mean, sure, but that position is premised on the experience of being not-a-cat in proximity to a cat
@@TXWatson Maybe cats aren't even fully in control of themselves?
The glazing is unreal
The idea is it isn't very engaging or satisfying. As someone that 100% completed the game. Its a good point.
@@Hugh.Manatee not at all. I have a cat and she has 0 thoughts before doing something. Actually she has 0 thoughts most of the time. All her actions are made by impulse and desire to eat, destroy and play. Nothing else
Ive never taken the game awards too seriously because it doesn't reward the best games it just rewards the most popular.
To be fair, not necessarily true for some. while Alan Wake 2 sold as much as you'd expect a good double-a game with a triple-a budget to sell, it hasn't been the most popular in almost any of the categories it was nominated. Plus while Dave was nominated, it wasn't the one that won despite being more popular than a lot of the other nominations.
@@deddrz2549 I can somewhat agree however the nominations are for the most popular games as for who wins there is definitely some level of quality of said game that is considered though it still just feels like a popularity contest due to how we have no idea they choose the game to win.
@@jairdinh7563 I agree that the games that are nominated aren't always the most popular but it does feel like most of the games that win are just they most popular ones (Specially because ik a lot of people just vote for the nominated game they most liked and don't really think about how good they are in that category)
Aherm...disco elysium....aherm
They literally used to just be woman in bikinis with game themes painted on their bodies. It was just MTV entertainment owned by a TV channel that was "just for the guys" and hosted by celebrities who vocally during the show one time didn't like games. Eddy Burback and his brother did a good video on his second, brother channel ua-cam.com/video/BvGn9mm9bT0/v-deo.html&ab_channel=Burback
I just want to add the small counterpoint that indie games have no specific onus upon them to explore new mechanics, ideas, or themes. Stardew Valley is a ideal refinement of decades-old mechanics, and it's great! The entire boomer-shooter genre is profoundly deriviative, and that's the whole point of them! Just because a game is unoriginal doesn't mean it's bad, and furthermore, it's still very possible to tell deep personal stories with well-worn genres. I love inventive and genre-breaking games too, but it feels inappropriate to measure all games (indie and otherwise) by that yardstick.
I don't know if that's fair to boomer shooters... depending on how you define the sub-genre.
Many would consider games like Ultrakill, Hyper Demon, Neon White, etc. "boomer shooters", and I think those are more unique and doing more to push the fps genre forward than the vast majority of FPS out there. There aren't a bunch of Ultrakill clones popping up because it did the exact same things games from the 90s did.
@@321cheeseman it did not, Ultrakill has deep movement mechanics something Doom does not, beyond moving fast, dusk is a better example of not bringing anything new to the table, dusk is a simple throwback... the reason you don't see Ultrakill clones is bc very few devs actually care to implement deep movement mechanics. it requires some interest and understanding of physics to do well, even if the movement mechanics are inherently unrealistic.
@@bam_bino__ It did though. Ultrakill has very clearly inspired a fair few games (Reaver, Voidborn, Force Reboot, etc.) and there will certainly be more in the future.
What I'm saying is I can't imagine this would be the case if Ultrakill were doing nothing new, or didn't at least offer a particularly novel combination of existing ideas and aesthetics.
@@321cheeseman I agree. While I wouldn't call Hyper Drmon or Neon White Boomer Shooters, they are a clear evolution of that type game.
It's like an alternate path the genre might have taken instead of the scripted cinematic presentation it opted for instead.
There's a difference between refining old formulas/being inspired by cool aesthetics, and using the exact same tired concepts and stylings that everyone else is using. You're doing a disservice to stardew valley. That game is a lot like the harvest moon games, but it puts a lot of work into being extremely unique.
got to "the opening scene of stray is exactly my shit", and said out loud, "you should play rain world!!!". got to "it's the exact opening sequence of rain world!" and said "oh!". got to "because of that one annoying friend that rants at you about it constantly" and said "oh..."
edit, now that i've actually finished the video: you're never gonna guess what that "favorite underrated indie gem" is...
ahem.....R A I N W O R L D
i love the silly depressed robots
Playing Rain World while listening the video, this sequence made me pause the game and start watching in bewilderment 'cause the person who i see the first time in my life, knows about RW.
I mean, without me telling her about it in the first place, wow.
Guess this game spreads most effectively through word of mouth, isn't it?
rain world mentioned!
"Hey look indies are doing great! Look at this good indie live service called Hell Divers 2"
Sony: _Oh.. uh, yea. Totally indie... Please make a Sony account._
rainworld reference spotted!
(screw sony!)
Sony: if you live outside the PSN regions, we don't need you because you're poor
Sony: why 90% of my playerbase stopped playing?
@@ChosterRinir thr,,. Looks to the sun., or smth like that..
@@ChosterRinir RAINWORLD, YOU SAY?
Sorry that game rewired my brain. I cannot see any amount of water or clouds without going “rain world reference”
@@ChosterRinir sky pfp spotted
(give me your pearls)
"They're rough when Triple-A is polished"
Ah yes, what I most associate with Triple-A game development, polish and definitely not rushing a game to meet a deadline under crunch.
Yeah, and how can you look at hollow knight and say that it’s not polished?
Just from the top of my head Against the Storm, Dyson Sphere Program and Planet Crafter were better in early access release than most AAA games on full release.
They also received better and faster support than AAA games.
Today I can't buy AAA game on release, because I know it's gonna be an unenjoyable, buggy mess until a year or so has passed and the game is at least kinda finished.
@@FellowInconsistent It would have been if the devs were capable of making a good video game.
Somehow both
@@chainsawplayin Jo but why throw hands though.
“It’s like if Death Stranding had a drone that you could send out to deliver packages for you”
Yeah, that’s in the game lmao
tbf it sucks and smashes the packages.
@@joetheeskimo8885 you also cannot get a score higher than an A, requires you to build out the road system for it to be really effective, and is honestly better suited for moving equipment you don't need to other bases. think a floating carrier but clunkier
yeah she kinda lost me there...
I think that was the joke.
@@otagaeff If you're anything like me, that road system is getting built either way lol
I'd add "Indie in Spirit" to the very long list of reasons that Geoff Keighley is talking out of his arse.
Must be an exhausting list to maintain XD
"Indie in Aesthetics"
At that point, Valve games are indie. They do what people love about indie games by experimenting. But Valve is a major publisher with tons of money. I think the idea of indie good, AAA bad is a false narrative that's leading to this.
18:20 It's really validating knowing I'm not the only person with the experience of playing Rain World before Stray, and having my enthusiasm for the game curbstomped by 40% the second a line of dialogue came on screen and then was asked to go fetch quests and barter with random people.
In interviews and development logs and stuff, the devs reiterated that they always wanted the game to be more like an adventure game where you just so happen to play as a cat -- and not at all a game that's really concerned about BEING the cat. And they completely achieved all their goals, which is so painful for all the things the game could've been.
Soundtrack is absolutely killer though
I'm fine with what Stray is, it just shouldn't have won "best indie"
> And they completely achieved all their goals, which is so painful for all the things the game could've been.
And then people get salty because the game doesn't turns out to be what they _wanted_ it to be.
@@DarthBiomech Too true, man. People wanted a unique or interesting experience, and got salty when it turned out to be profoundly bland, samey, and mediocre with an overwhelmingly positive on Steam and many awards and accolades because the visuals are nice and the cat can meow.
I'm still sore about Tunic not winning that game is so good and deserves so much attention
@@Clownacy but it's so good precisely because of this presentation. you spend half of the game thinking its a really well designed and cared about Zelda clone and then boom. "OH SHIT IT'S NOT ZELDA." If it didn't establish itself as a Zelda clone, the way it breaks the fact its a Zelda clone wouldn't hit. Plus, even the Zelda clone part is good, and it doesn't just completely copy ideas.
Neon White was also fantastic and deserved it 100x more than Stray
Also, I feel like the Indie/AAA distinction we have now has a lot to do with the 08 market crash and how it killed the AA developer scene that exists from that time. I think a lot of these games like Dave The Diver or Hades are us seeing the AA dev starting to come back, just being born out of the Indie movement that kept a lot of them alive or that those new players had to grow up in in an age where big publishers and developers became SUPER RISK ADVERSE for like 2 decades.
It's also related to the current development studio mass layoffs and how those people are basically starting to re-break ground the way game development in the olden days started out - in a cave with a box of scraps. Just with years of experience making games, but now they're forced to just have a go without big publisher money because those big publishers are beheading golden geese left and right. So a lot of "indie" now means "former AAA devs trying to survive and keep doing what they love doing". A lot of that means seeing more AA and "triple-A-style" indie projects.
A lot of AA studios weren't, "killed off" they were bought.
@@soundrogue4472
They were bought, and then butchered, often for parts, which killed them.
yeah i dont like that she asked exactly 0 indie game devs for this video indie games dont avoid convention they just dont care about convention. also indie is a distinguishment made by if you are INDEPENDENT it is measurable if you have a publisher or parent company or investors you are no longer indie.
Is valve indie or indie in spirit? What about Nintendo? Indie doesn't mean innovative in the same way AAA doesn't mean corpo slop. Companies are made of people with vision regardless of size.
Wait, but death stranding *does* have a mechanic where you send drones delivering packages for you
Yeah that was a bad analogy. A lot of games have mechanics that streamline core gameplay. Like getting No Encounter weapons in FFX when the whole game is based around encounters.
Does it fully replace walking? Also I don't think it would work here although IDK
@@thomasloughlin7938no encounter doesn't subvert FF gameplay completely, it lets you pause random encounters when it's strategically advantageous. If you play the whole game with them you'll be under leveled, short on items, etc. The ability often isn't available from the start either and is usually more of a late game QoL for people who have specific goals to get there without constant harassment. One shotting trash mobs that want to suicide by hero of light every 5 seconds while giving barely any rewards is not the most engaging part of these games after 50+ hours.... XD
Edit: A better example is FF8 junction+refine+Triple Triad. Levels are meaningless or even make the game harder as enemies level with you and you have access to most items/magic without having to farm mobs.
I think part of the issue with how the whole subject is viewed is that there are only two categories of games, indie or AAA. It's treated as a dichotomy.
There are so many games, like Dave the Diver or Stray, that really don't fit cleanly into either category, they are neither Indie nor AAA.
I think it would be more helpful to think about and talk about the whole thing as a spectrum instead, but I doubt that nuance will ever come to be common.
I’ve seen people attempt to use both “AA” and “III”. Personally I’m not a fan of either.
I mean, it's just a loaded description, as it encapsulates both the production and the artistic goals.
Larian (baldurs gate 3) is 500 people and made a megahit = "AAA". However, they are still passion driven, self funded = "indie".
MiniRocket (dave the diver) are a small production = indie, but were rather market driven and made a megahit = AAA.
So, the only meaningful difference is, if the game has a game director that's actually creating "art", as opposed to being by the numbers. It's the same with movies, where someone as Nolan still makes high budget blockbusters, but clearly cares about making a good movie. As opposed to random directors hired by Disney to churn out the next Marvel installment, having a screenplay/actors handed to them, etc.
So, to me, it's a top down (AAA) vs bottom up (indie) mindset, that is the most important. In that sense, the actual size doesn't matter as much.
@@zippa93 AA has been a term for more than a decade.
Yeah I remember hearing it around Subnautica (2014), but I don’t feel like it’s really caught on
There were double AA games back in the day, back when big studios made smaller projects. Remember Me is a good example.
in fairness to stray, the pre release trailers made it clear you were a cat in a cyberpunk fallen world with humanoids to interact with. much less of a bait and switch than dave the diver
Yeah honestly, I bought Stray and I got what I was expecting.
Dave .... not so much.
Wasn't there a video on steam where it said he farmed and stuff
this feels a lot like Brutal Legend... thought we were getting a 3d action adventure game and ended up with a third person RTS lol
The release trailer for Dave from a year ago lists all the minigames, what are you on about...
I want to point out that AAA is not a concept of polish and design, its literally just a description of the studios budget. If AAA was an indication of polish, AAA studios would be putting out banger after banger after banger.
the thing is, they abandon AAA that we know in the 2000s.
Back then, every PS2 / PS3 games never receive patches, thus resulting a finished product with sometimes a really great concept or franchises.
In that sense, AAA means proper polished experience, like eating a crab buffet. Look at Half Life, GTA SA, Sims 2. When the dev want to patch things up, they must fit it in a DLC (a major content DLC).
As of now, AAA is still similar to eating a crab buffet, but it's so inconsistent that you'll constantly get a fuckin raw crabs in there. What's wrong is the STANDARD. Other aspect such as interchangeable sheer size, budget, concepts are relative and interchangeable.
@@nickochioneantony9288 PS3 games did get patches, but more importantly a lack of infrastructure to patch games doesn't mean games were finished, it simply means that there was a lot more pressure to make games as stable and polished as reasonably possible before release.
Plenty of games released in broken or unfinished states to varying degrees back then (see: various Sonic games, especially 06). Plus you'd sometimes get updated versions/revisions with future batches of physical copies, or a release in a different region would get a more finished and polished version of the game since the devs had some extra time to work on it (not localization changes but actual improvements from the original devs, like the Japanese versions of Wario World or Stretch Panic), or an updated version of the same game would be released separately on the same platform (e.g.: Metal Gear Solid 3: Subsistence, Doubutsu no Mori e+ in Japan).
There's just not a point in time that all games were totally finished products. It never existed. The most you could say is things were _better_ in this regard in the 2000s.
All of the things you're describing were almost certainly put into Dave the Diver to get into Steam festivals. Steam runs these festivals around certain themes. There's a fishing fest, a farming fest, a card game fest, etc. All of the extra stuff is in the game to tick off a box so they can get into the Steam festival to promote the game. Festivals are the best way to get a game promoted these days, so it could be that we are seeing something like festival-driven game development. Not saying that's a good thing. It just seems like a driving force in games these days.
A big budget studio pretending to be indie could pull off that strategy really well. They just need to cram all of this content into the game, apply to the festivals, and blammo, exposure.
This is the best answer so far to my question of "why dear lord why"
@@PixelaDay You would be the perfect video essayist to do some more research into it and see if there's something to this theory.
Wow, this has to be it. The art style even looks like a potential minimalist Steam Sale style. It looks like there isn't substantial enough depth to any of those pieces for Dave the Diver to qualify, but designing around festivals is definitely a solid marketing strategy, whether that be based on artistic themes, mechanics, or demographics/politics. If you can check any box, check it.
@@PixelaDayIt would explain why the game holds your hand so much, too. It's trying to prevent anyone from being frustrated.
@@LeMicronaut Yeah, and to be clear, I'm not saying I think Steam should regulate these kinds of things. Full disclosure, I am an indie game developer. I think we should get the idea more out in the open, get the public talking about it, maybe get some more awareness amongst gamers. It's similar to microtransactions in the way it breaks the cohesiveness and singular vision of games.
I get the impression with The Game Awards at least, that they give awards to indie games based on their viral popularity, not what is actually the best game. They pick whatever they think will give them the most indie cred at the time based on what the current buzz is outside the big AAA space, without alienating their mainstream AAA-loving audience.
TGA is literally in the pockets of AAA publishers. The impression I get is that they don't dare alienate those big budget sponsors.
TGA is just like any other mainstream award show, it only exists to sell games instead of celebrating games. The voters will usually just vote for whatever game they’ve heard of (or for whatever developer scmhoozed them enough leading up to the vote), not which game they genuinely thought was the best, and most likely a majority of the voters hadn’t played even half of the games that were up for nomination. TGA is a joke and shouldn’t be treated with any reverence by the larger gaming community.
@@RwnEsper It's not in the pocket of anyone or doing anything for a specific purpose. The jury is journalists around the world. It's just that. People who don't really play things that aren't the most marketed games.
or any sort of woke shit
Stray wasn't "viral" popularity, it was popular because it had a publisher (Annapurna) who spent a lot of money promoting it in the press. it's far more mainstream industry than "viral buzz"
I just finished Dave the Diver last week. I'd agree that they went a little overboard on the minigames, but most of them were fairly short, refreshing breaks from the typical cycles you go through in the game. The fish farm also absolutely does not make it so that you don't need to dive, at least not without dedicating tons of money and time towads upgrading it and collecting the appropriate fish roe (which is a lot, and they are't guranteed to drop).
I think DtD is the way it is because of scope creep. The devs probably just kept thinking "hey, this'd be a neat thing to add to the game" and eventually ran out of appropriate places to add said things given the sheer volume of them. The farming was annoying, I'll give you that, but I have very few problems with the rest of the game.
I agree with this
Yeah the fish farm absolutely doesn't negate the need to dive, especially since you need to keep diving to fill it up. It's there to get even more fish than you usually would so long as you check it once in a while. Late game you need soooo much fish to level up the dishes and it helps me double my produce passively.
You can also completely ignore it too, if it's something you don't care for, once they get full enough it just stops producing. The fish remain there until you decide to do something about it, I think the main point is to help struggling players who keep losing all their fish later on as more dangers show up. Just so you have SOMETHING to fall back on and not get softlocked selling normaki. But I personally use it to double my fish production on top of what I'm getting from diving. You'll always be diving though, it's not like you'll be doing anything else during the day..
I agree with this. I liked some but not all of the mini games.
It’s like this reviewer hates when devs get creative… really lame review tbh
@@Noimnotathing exactly, the minigames makes the cycle of Dive-Cook-Repeat less of a chore, but w/e, she justs wants another farming upgrade game without personality
@@Noimnotathingi'll start by saying one of the best endie games i played last year was dredge (the eldritch horror fishing game) and one of it's greatest strengths was the consistency of the mechanics and the chilling sudden atmosphere changes.
DTD really feels like they picked random slips of paper out of a hat for the second half of the game, and while it's not that bad and most of them don't overstay their welcome, it really tanked my overall enjoyment of the whole thing.
I think the moment in Stray that made me realize you're not playing as the cat, you're playing as the little robot that just conveniently has a cat bus, was when the little robot pulls out a flashlight.... because cat's are notoriously bad at seeing in dimly lit areas!
for me it was when the limping cat completely recovered after entering a new room
For me, Pizza Tower undoubtedly was the indie game of the year for 2023. One designer/artist, one programmer, completely crowdfunded. Pizza Tower's the kind of game you play like, 4 times for a complete play-through.
It wasn't even nominated for best independent game, just best debut indie game, which it didn't win. That went to Cocoon, which was published by Annapurna.
Also we can't repeat this enough but Cocoon was made by (and I'm quoting from the game's website) Limbo and Inside's lead gameplay designer, this guy made two of the biggest indie games at the peak of the indie scene, how is Cocoon a debut?!
It's insane to realize how few people finish games, specifically games that they still say they enjoy.
BUT
The important thing is that they enjoy things.
There's a tree growing outside my window that I've enjoyed for years, totally free.
@@jacksquatt6082 what
Right?! Nothing infuriates me more than people saying they loved a game that they couldn't even get themselves to finish!
@@Ruben_BE_ Why does that infuriate you? There are many ways to enjoy something, that don't have to involve getting the credits to roll.
@@Keisuki Hmm, while that's kinda true, I guess it can also say something about the game's quality if many also don't finish it?
Stray winning was batshit crazy. Tunic, Sifu or Cult of the Lamb were far more insteresting and I'm a Cat person , also from Brazil but not named Brazil
And Neon White is one of my favorite games of all time. Honestly speaking Stray was my least favorite out of all the options. It feels like if they gave a bodybuilder award to a fat guy because he had the most amount of people taking pictures
Given the estrogen soaked judges and bizarre cat fanaticism I wasn't surprised at all. I'm never going to act like cat people are normal.
But all of the awards shows are dumb anyway. It's not hard to know what's going to win.
What do you mean you're from Brazil, but not named Brazil?
@@JZStudiosonlineI like cats. I can't stand cat people.
@@JZStudiosonline bro what do trans ppl have to do with this. didn't even know the judges were trans.
fact still remains that stray won because of it's popularity though.
I demand financial compensation for making me sit through that Dave the Diver dialogue.
Take it up with Nexon, I hear they have the dosh
Maybe the Patreon edit has less of it. Who knows, maybe those are the benefits ;p
God that was painful to listen to. It's like it's made for toddlers.
It was the, "Again, I need to get rid of them before doing anything else." where I snapped. 14:18
Simply dont watch that part of the video
I overall agree with you but Stray was never intended to be a movement platformer. It's for all intents and purposes a point and click adventure modernized with button prompts instead of clicks. Which is what I expected going in. Hell, I don't even think I'd count it as a puzzle platformer.
To me, an indie game is a passion project that is self-funded, crowd-funded, and maybe self-published. Something like Cave Story.
I do not think it matters whether it subverts the AAA industry or not. It could just be a clone of Mega Man but have tweaks to make it the game the developer always wanted it to be.
If I ever make a game, this is what I would do. In my head is the Golden Axe and Double Dragon sequel that has not been released yet, that is exactly what I would try to bring to life.
Look, as much as I think an Indie prize is great, I would actually point to Stray as the most obvious case of "What bleeping budget standards are you using"? Personally?
There's a lot of categories I'd want Geoff to make. As far as the Indie game mess (and it is one) goes? EXPLICIT. BUDGETARY. STANDARDS. And two categories.
Indie Game: $15 million US or less. That's a LOWER budgetary standard than the Indie Spirits currently have for movies (which is currently $30 million) but still communicates the basic idea without being too anal. (However laudatory or not you think it is, Dave the Diver IS probably within that range somewhere.)
AA Game: $16-74 million US. Stray is, ABSOLUTELY, within this range, for the record.
As for a pure uncritical "self-funded" definition? As much as I want to support that, there's a huge, Megalopolis sized, hole in that logic. If your self-funded movie costs almost as much as Ant-Man, are you really an "Indie Movie"? Really?
@@Volvagia1927 I understand where you're coming from and I personally don't even factor in the award show criteria because I don't pay attention to them.
I like your budget constraints.
As for your last question, I guess I would consider Copollas Megalopolis an indie film, but that is purely my subjective take.
I'm more interested in it being a passion project. It could be great or it could be the gaming equivalent to The Room, which is kind of great in its own way.
What if games were categorized by their launch price?
@@Volvagia1927 yeah if categories were based on budget and he mentioned that then he'd get WAY less hate than he did.
Bro!!!
Make that dream happen!
Make that double dragon + golden axe project!!!!
I wishlist that baby and wait for it to go on sale for 90% discount!!!!!
it's actually really simple: indie, like the word it originated from, "independent", should be classified if there's a publisher or not.
If Steven Spielberg burns his own money on equipment, hires his local childhood neighborhood, and films an entire feature length film and publishes, that's an Steven Spielberg independent movie. if he uses a studio money its not
in game terms it means that star-citizen is indie while hi-fi rush is a AAA
I think this idea misses the category of games that have a publisher that themselves aren't very big, or have a more complex publisher situation. Stardew Valley was originally published by Chucklefish Games (though the rights have since been returned to ConcernedApe after the game's success), and that's one of the posterchildren of indie games. I do still agree that there should be some barrier based on assistance, but not all publishers are equal in what assistance they can provide.
The term is borrowed from the music industry, where "indie" did not mean free from a record label, but rather that the record label that published a bands music wasn't beholden to any shareholders, but rather independently owned.
In the gaming world it does get rather complicated though. Because both under the definition I put forward and the definition Rockmanbalboa put forward, Valve games would end up being classified as indie, as would Baldur's Gate 3
Wait did Steven Spielberg actually do that? And what movie was it?
@@jokerofspades-xt3bs I’m pretty sure they were talking about a hypothetical situation.
Ok but under this defenition consider this, TF2 a valve game would be considered indie since they published it themselves even if its clearly not, And something like ULTRAKILL no matter how much of an indie title it obviously is isn't indie since it has a publisher in New Blood
The game awards is just Hollywood at this point.
I see it as more “Capitalist” then Hollywood… all great things in America eventually end up falling into full Capitalism.
Overtime it becomes more corporate, soulless until it gets completely gutted after the precious shareholders (whom are more important the health of the world) don’t see improved profits over the year before.
Ahh life.
Always has been
@@feartrain1282 ah yes, capitalism bad, Communism, USSR, Holodomor, Stalin = good. God you are braindead
@@feartrain1282Don't take all the credit. Europeans are into that all the same.
@@feartrain1282I mean, Hollywood is also really capitalist
Indie game: A game that keeps the demo up post-release.
This gave me a scary, dystopic definition:
Indie: Buy to Play
AAA: live service
@@Soumeinliterally how it is rn, every other AAA release is multiplayer only, requires online connection, or has a battlepass
There's still single player aaa don't be a doomer about it
@@Kaeloz93what if it's online-needed tho when singleplayer?
@@DoctorWhoNow01 but nintendo tho
I find it fascinating why "What is an Indie Game" seems so hard to answer.
The core definition is a game made by a studio that is independent from a bigger label, publisher, board etc.
Game commissioned by publishers are almost always made with the thought of publishing them from the ground up.
They're made based on currently popular themes, genres, monetization schemes etc.
In contrast, most if not all Indie Games are made because someone just wanted to make them.
And sure, both are not mutually exclusive. You find AAA passion projects (Death Stranding) or trend chasing indies. But it's not the norm.
The distinction between AAA (and AA etc.) and Indie is less the spirit behind a project and just how it was made, marketed, financed etc.
So no, Dave the Diver is not an indie game, it was announced, made and published by Nexon, a giant industry publisher. Heck, it was initially meant to collab with NatGeo, too...
Though kudos to Nexon for launching the game under a sub-brand so people treat it as an indie game...
it's not. If it was made prior to Xbox Live Arcade it's any game made by a small studio. If it was made post Xbox Live Arcade then it's any game made by a small studio and either self-published or published by a studio like Limited Run Games or Devolver.
also Nexon did NOT want people to treat it as an indie game, they specifically went out of their way to call out Geoff for even nominating it and I guarantee if it won then they would have refused the award.
Pizza Tower should won Indie of the year 2023
I do think you're being too hard on Dave the Diver and Stray (idk I found Stray's story to be surprisingly compelling?).
But also fully agree with your larger argument that they are nowhere near the best indies of their years, and that the only indies that get to be celebrated on big stages are the ones that are AAA-adjacent or ones that go viral for this or that reason. It's been a major bugbear for me for years.
I agree, but I think the analysis fails to capture the more general reasons for this. This is not a problem specific to Indie games, it's not a problem specific to games in general. Think about the Oscars. Often, very good movies win Oscars, but basically every year, there are absolute gems left out, simply because they aren't big enough. These types of award shows reward popularity and quality does not guarantuee popularity. The whole concept of an indie category at the game awards is kind of bonkers, because indie as a genre came up specifically because there were games with niche audiences that were successful despite being low profile, where low profile is the exact opposite of what you need at the awards. The question then becomes if it wouldn't be better just not to have an indie category there, but that's also not a good solution, as monolithic circle jerks of the bigshots in the industry are already far too common. I'm not sure if this problem has a solution, especially since indie already has such a loose definition that trying to exclude anything based on a limited number of metrics would leave many classics outside the definition that would generally be accepted as indie.
Stray was such a nice vibe to play. It reminds me of Journey or Brothers: A Tale of Two Sons - they're chill with just enough gameplay to keep me engaged. They're not hard but not every game needs to be hard. Sometimes, I want to inhabit a painting and take in the atmosphere.
As a cat person, Stray is very soothing to watch someone else play, but when it came time to actually buy an animal-based game, I went for Untitled Goose Game.
Indie just means made by an independent studio. So no publisher or outside funding and not big enough to be a publisher.
It has nothing to do with style. And then there's the plague that is Indie-style games, where big companies try to mimic what indie ends up being to make a buck.
It's not even just big companies, there's plenty of indies imitating indies. I can say one of my favorite indies from last year was basically a mashup of two really popular indies-Vampire Survivor and Hades. Which worked out perfectly since I disliked those two games for very different reasons but ended up really enjoying the new game heavily inspired from both.
@@goldman77700 Trying to copy success is common. Sometimes it's actually just an inspiration and not a desire to clone. "I can do this but better!" is a good thing.
My issue is with big corpo wanting to cash in and ending up being something soulless. Kind of like chinese game clones.
@@soulwynd I'd say it's less "I can do this but better" and more "I want this to be better"
Thank you! I don't understand how "what is an indie game?" a difficult question to answer, it has nothing to do about the feeling of the game or the message or how personal it is
It's just a game developed by an independent developer. They can be good or bad, personal or not, derivative or not, it doesn't matter
It can be the most unoriginal thing and be indie if it was developed by an independent developer
I still consider Devolver and LRG published games to be indie as they only publish smaller projects.
"Cats see the human world as a puzzle platformer" is an interesting idea though, and the game does get it across very powerfully, even if the puzzle platformer part is rather standard mechanically.
Mirror's Edge is honestly a much better example of that tbh. Although the violent aspects and danger have a totally different vibe.
30:50 Why do they have problem answering the question?
It's a game made by a small studio or by a single programmer as a hobby, definitely not by a huge company with hundreds of workers.
Sounds like Dave the Diver would've been a fantastic yakuza-like game if all those bonkers minigames were optional
EDIT: I haven't played the game. I'm basing my thoughts on the information in the video
I didn't get this until I watched the video lol holy heck, I didn't know that was in the game. I thought it was merely a diving and fishing game. It's like Yakuza but with a gun to your head forcing you to play the minigames 😂 shoehorning a rhythm game within a diving game has got to be a flex somewhat.
Most of those mini-games are optional, and the ones that are not are really short story segments to add variety. Some of the mini-games are undeveloped (the stealth section and farming games are probably the worst.) But I don't think it was as bad as she says in the video. That said the thing I tend to value most in games is novelty so I had fun with it.
You can ignore like 90% of that shit.
Wow am I glad I didn't buy Dave the Diver. Wouldn't be surprised if all that bloat was directly caused by pressure from higher ups
Dave the Diver was great, but a lot of the side content did feel unnecessary and I would have preferred the spent more time making the restaurant and diving more varied, and less time adding in superfluous side activities.
I tune out the awards part of The Game Awards for this reason. It feels like the whole show is just recognizing virality.
I feel like most people care way more about the announcements, and the random goofy shit.
I love it when my Discord messages are so good they make it into my friends scripts.
It's happened a number of times now
First, I'm not a cat person...
The thing that you're missing about Stray is that if you get invested in the story and not worry about analyzing the actual gameplay itself... and you engage with its mechanics, it makes you think about the characters in the game like a cat would... By having robots instead of humans, you dissociate yourself from the characters despite the fact that they're as human like as can be. So much so that there's a strong chance they're literally humans in robot bodies.
Do you care about them? No. You're a cat. You go around forming temporary friendships and then move on. Just like a cat. And psychologically it feels basically natural. You just want to get out of the city.
But then there's B-12. You can absolutely form an emotional bond with B-12 as a character, and you find out B-12 is a human mind in a drone's body. Just as cats can form a strong bond with a human and not give a literal shit about any other humans in a sociopathic manner, that can happen to the player if you the layer lets it happen, stops worrying and just engages with the game for what it is and what it's trying to be.
While you don't embody the cat physically, the game does its best to manipulate you psychologically into embodying the cat mentally.
it literally won an award for "innovative gameplay".
WHAT? how did stray beat tunic AND cult of the lamb!?
Because it has pretty graphics and a normal ass cat. It’s that simple.
I've heard a lot of bad things about cult of the lamb so it's not surprising but stray is mid af 😂
@@wiktor3727 I do like Cult of the Lamb, but I gotta say it was pretty rough on release. Lots of bugs and missing features.
But they have been steadily updating it, adding a lot of features, content and QOL along the way. They're even adding a co-op mode which is pretty cool.
@@RazzleTheRed1*they have sex*
Dude. Neon White. It's in my top 3 favorite games of all time.
Based on what I heard about Stray, I refuse to believe it could be better than FUCKING NEON WHITE
I think defining "Indie" as "not AAA" is a genius definition, honestly.
it pushes into the spotlight the main reason people value "indie games" in the first place. Hell, it's why the label is called "independent"; in order to be "independent" you have to be contrasted against being "dependent", the question then becomes: Dependent on what?
I believe the answer to that question is where the real juice lies.
Furthermore, I believe the answer is found in the economic forces at play during the creation of the game (yes I am weird). I think, being "Independent" is a recognition of the freedom of the authors involved in the game, resulting from not having to answer to someone else. The only reason to answer to someone else in this way is, basically, money.
In this I am talking about the people ACTUALLY making the game, not the company.
If the creative team is making a game, and they are just following their own drive, it counts as independent. The issue then comes from figuring out how many of the decisions of the game were made with the goal of selling a bunch of copies. Capitalism worms its way through every creative endeavor so it's bound to be present in all creative works which are placed in the market and thus transformed into commodities to be compared with other games they must compete with for the gamers' money.
With this in mind, we must return to our original equation:
Indie =/= AAA
In this equation, "indie" gives up its own definition for that of the inverse of "AAA" which prompts the question: What defines a AAA game?
The answer, as I see it, is that a AAA game is a commodified game; meaning, a game MEANT to be "A game" one in a rack of games, its own specific characteristics transformed into indistinct features, interchangeable with that of any other "Game" in the rack; it's no longer "THIS game" it's just one of many options for you to choose.
In essence: a AAA game = any AAA game, otherwise, competing with one another wouldn't be possible.
It's why metrics like "hours per dollar" become a necessity. You could have spent that money in any other game, which would give you indistinct "fun", so the ONLY way to differentiate them is through those kinds of metrics.
Let us use this definition back in our original equation:
Indie =/= AAA
Meaning:
Indie =/= Commodity
An indie game, with this definition, would be a game that is not meant to compete with other games. A game that, at its core, refuses to give up its unique nature, refuses to become undifferentiated "fun". It's incomparable to other indie games because you can't really thread a cohesive definition that would put them all within the same box, and in that very impossibility, they refuse to be commodities, they are NOT AAA games.
It doesn't mean selling an indie game makes it not indie anymore, it doesn't mean they can't be compared with other indie games; rather, it just means that the forces that create the impulse to create undifferentiated, interchangeable products for a market, are absent or at the very least contained. In this way, no game can ever be "truly indie" except those which are not meant to be released (alla "the beginners' guide) but the label "indie" is still useful as a way to distinguish that feeling of a game which cannot be compared to others, not because it has more features, or lasts longer, or is updated more frequently, but because it simply is itself.
Anyways idk if it makes sense to anyone else.
TL;DR: the video made me think a lot and I thank you for that, first time viewer and definitely gonna binge all your other videos
Thanks for your comment! Welcome and I hope you enjoy the channel :)
I'd say independent just means "not owned by a massive company." Animal Crossing isn't an indie game, even if it could be. The creatives might not have been hampered, but.
My problem with this definition is that it would include games which were never called indie prior
Like the tales of series were never AAA games
But they certainly weren't indie
And they certainly do not fit the reason why you think things that aren't AAA are indie
@@MetronaJ I mean here is the thing, a game is a definition of when tech and creative minds create a vision. See the word vision? Well what has been going on in the AAA scene, most visions that the companies wants are being ruined by multiple DEI teams, people who found your original vision insulting to them and therefore demands change for "added profit" we as gamers want to see what the original vision was and playthrough it and then review it, but since we can't really see that the game becomes nothing to us other than *hey Look at this other teams vision for the original teams vision* games like stray and DtD while certainly not praise worthy are good games, not perfect or masterpieces but the original vision was there with the team and that's why we enjoy them. A game for everybody is a game for nobody, stray garnerd the right audience therefore garnerd people who liked the game and wanted to shed some light on it, but heres the catch: when something becomes popular the constant need to consume it because it's classified as a norm won't be everyones taste, the fear of missing out or needing to consume is a problem that can't be exactly fixed. I played stray and enjoyed it and since I could review it without needing to feel obligated to do so by DEI teams I gave it a good review, not my taste, could use more creative outlets but certainly for others that enjoy something that has a level of quality in it's enviromental story telling
@@orge9711 Oh, stfu about DEI bullshit, when games were bad in the past, people didnt claim it was some kind of a conspiracy to ruin games. You people act like consultancy groups like sweetbaby inc are going around like an armed militia, holding a gun to some poor writers head, forcing them to turn every single charachter into a minority
One problem is the nebulous definition of 'indie'. I mean, independent doesn't always mean small - it just means not acquired by a larger company. Valve, the owners of freaking Steam, are independent. But not, we would generally agree, indie. So what defines indie, normally it is a game made by a person or small team with limited resources. Dave the Diver doesn't fit this second definition at all, and also is just really a chaotic and baffling design.
Dave The Diver planning meeting:
_"So anyway, what genre will our game be?"_
_"YES!"_
The Cat Game Winning Over SIGNALIS Is A Crime
Not to mention citizen sleeper, Nobody saves the world, Neon White, Tunic, Sifu, VAMPIRE SURVIVORS. I could argue the case for any of those or Signalis for best indie, at least compared to Stray.
Neon White is my pick, as do all of you with your other preference.
But arguably, Stray receives a really great publication, and it really clicked with a lot of audience because the game is accessible and virtually unique.
I mean, you don't really see a lot of 'walking simulator' that utilizes a normal Cat. Whether anyone think the game is flawed or not immersive enough, I think it deserve the award simply because it's accessible, no nonsense, and quite creative in their conceptualization.
I think stray deserved its accolades. That’s not to say that other games didn’t also deserve to win the awards that stray did, because many of them for sure did. I agree with the previous commenter that Neon White definitely deserved awards, it’s a very polished, refined, unique, and just plain excellent game. But I do think that Stray deserved its wins, it’s a charming, well crafted, wonderful little game. Maybe not to everyone’s taste, but still a gem.
The fish farm part brings to mind the Sid Meier quote: "Given the opportunity, players will optimize the fun out of a game"
13:00 lmao
An indie game is where the developers make all the calls. Artistic choices, deadlines, story, difficulty... everything. They have a vision and staying true to that vision 100%. Regardless of what is trending, nothing needs to be approved from the outside, nothing is measured with the public. In summary, the devs are not mere workhorses here making a product born from careful calculations of a publisher based on mass appeal and market share. Profit was never the goal, but the expression of the idea. To materialize the vision. The priorities are different - staying true to the original concept, sometimes even at the cost of loosing reception. They view their product as a mirror and would not bear to look if they wouldn't stay true to it all the way.
Today, companies realized that there's a valid paying market for indie games, meaning there's money to be had. So they want in, but since their reason is not the expression of an idea, but profits, everything seems forced - their vision is not born on it's own, it's simply a plan to sate a need for money. That need is the organic part here that came first and the idea is the result - not the other way around. A plan purposefully generated and constantly altered based on where the gains are, for means of financial success. Thus the best they can do is an imitation, still without a soul, just a calculation - the reason why they came here in the first place. There was nothing banging inside anyone head to be let out, it's just an execution of well-organized tasks. These publishers are now hosting events to celebrate themselves in this territory as well, a place that was born in spite them. Thank you for conciously pinpointing this phenomenon:)
I understand the description you're going for but this can still apply to a bunch of older AAA games too. This can even apply to some of the EA original games.
@@paulpangilinan6671 You do realised that most of these AAA games did started out as an indie games right? Or at least the company started out as indie devs and are just developing a passion project. Maybe not EA specifically, but games like Half life or Doom were developed by small team that were then either grew into a massive triple A companies or bought by massive studios.
@@zackfross98 it also applies to a lot of arcade games like Tekken, Virtua Fighter, and Dead or Alive. It also applies to Assassins Creed, L4D1, Far Cry 2, and Devil May Cry. I think uncompromising design as a descriptor for what an indie game is kinda worse than the original description of an indie game because it unintentionally lumps in too many games into indie even if it doesn't fit. Like the original Sonic games would end up counting as indie games by this description. I prefer the original, more objective, description more because at least you can just correct people on it. You will just end up with arguments using the OP's description
The indie game manifesto
@@paulpangilinan6671 I would say that being "developer-driven" is one requirement for indie games and that it's just a prerequisite. Afterwards you can start going into business and corporate structure but if the game's design isn't foremost being driven by a vision it isn't really indie.
It's not a hard and fast rule of what is or isn't indie, I'd say it's more like an equation that factors in budget, team size, corporate oversight, etc. but that entire formula is multiplied by x, where x is a boolean of "does the developer have full creative control?"
I don't think I agree that indie games "should" be arbitrarily counter to AAA trends. Subversiveness, newness, surprise, these aren't the only value of art. Indie games can be anything; that's part of how they create such variety of mechanics and style. But I think it's wrong to say that's the only thing they can do. Refining, replicating, practicing, elaborating, expanding-- these are all things art, be it games or stories or any other medium, can do, and they all have value, and exist as part of an ecosystem that feeds itself. If no one ever wanted to ruminate on existing trends, mechanics, and story beats, we would all be much worse off, no matter what kind of game we prefer playing.
It's actually a bit maddening, because you yourself talked about wanting replication! You wanted Stray to give you the experience and atmosphere of Rain World! Is replication somehow more valid because it's replicating indie? Is it just because the 'original'-- in the form you recognize-- is newer and thus isn't "overdone" yet? Or, is it simply because that's the experience you like most, and you were disappointed to end up with something you like less?
Actually, that also rubbed me wrong on the reviewer section. You criticized these game journalists... for disclosing their biases and personal favoritism toward the content of what they were reviewing. I'm sure it did taint the rest of their reviews, as did the fact that they're for-profit reviewers under publications with editors and format requirements, probably writing on shit deadlines. Do you really expect and want reviewers to cut their voice out of their reviews entirely? Or do you just find their enthusiasm on this subject embarrassing, because you don't understand "cat people" and you don't share that enthusiasm? Would you react the same if reviewers for an otome game said "I'm a sucker for cheesy romance, so as soon as I saw the first encounter with Romance Candidate 1 I was like, 'sign me up!'"?
Some of these questions may seem like passive-aggressive rhetorical devices intended to make you seem or feel stupid. I mean these questions sincerely. I feel like there's things worth interrogating further in your complaints and arguments here. I don't have to agree with the conclusions you come to; the questions are, I think, still worth asking.
I'll also say, game awards an entirely different kettle of fish. It's reasonable to ask them to find and hold consistent standards, if they want to be taken seriously as an industry and consumer metric. I also don't think we should ever take an industry award show as a sincere metric for any measure of quality. That may be a controversial take, and I'm not saying that I see no value in award shows at all, but invariably, these awards-- Oscars, Hugos, Pulitzer, GotY-- bend to outside pressures, profit motives, and the force of popularity, as well as the constraints of time and resources. Expecting them to be a measure of objective quality, or a way to find hidden gems or raw experimentation, is a comical exercise in futility. Games have to get popular first before they hit an award show. They're never going to have that many sharp edges, because anything too unwelcoming or unfamiliar is not going to get the wide audience interest necessary to get to an award show.
It sounds to me, from your closing statements, that what you want has much less to do with what is or isn't indie, much less to do with what an award show says, and a great deal more to do with, "how do we foster the material conditions for experimentation in art to continue to thrive?" Policing or restricting the term "indie" isn't going to do that. Indie devs lean on for-profit structures like publishing and funding drives (largely) not out of greed or dispassion for their art and craft, but because they need to survive and thrive in order to make art. Freeware is dormant not because people don't care about free games and not because people don't want to make free games, but because that system is actually incredibly limiting for who can make games and what games they can make. The system as it is rewards big, polished, formulaic games because those are what make money right now, and money is the system's metric for success. If you want to see more games do other things, we need to build different systems, and that's a much broader and more complicated topic than "does having a publisher preclude you from being indie" alone.
This is an absolutely amazing comment!
I liked the video, and your comment definitely adds a lot to the discussion! I agree about the desire for repetition between Rain World and Stray being off-point to the message of the video - I'd say the 'desolate mysterious city' is actually *more* common in indie games than 'city with robot population' (def bc it's easier to make an empty city rather than fill it with NPCs).
I think the core issue here is the apparent lack of diversity of video games. Don't get me wrong, the games are there, but they're not reaching people, and these awards aren't doing them any favors. I've tried to hunt for active blogs/websites myself that would showcase new (more underground) indie games, but to no avail. I agree about building different systems, ones that would highlight innovation, subversion and experimentation in games.
Couldn't have said it better myself. Great comment.
Great comment, almost exactly what I was thinking in reaction to this video, but allow me to add something else that nobody else seems to dare question.
Another thing about her wish of distinguishing "indie" from "AAA" that really rubs me the wrong way is when she ascribed the indie scene as being more "queer" than triple-A. I have two things to say about that.
Firstly, that is simply not true, just look at Baldur's Gate 3, The Last of Us 1 and 2, Assassin's Creed Odyssey, Saints Row, Borderlands 3...
Secondly and most importantly, this partly exposes what I see as her desire to exclude certain game development personalities she dislikes from her pseudogramscian view of the "queer indie scene". This is further supported when she expressed her unrelated disdain for Jonathan Blow.
The indie scene is not supposed to have a counter-hegemony to that of the triple-A scene, both in terms of gameplay polish and politics. I simply wish for a world where the likes of Michal Kovařík, Simon Chylinski and Tim Soret can be just as respected by the same audience as Nicklas Nygren (who has blocked me on twitter), Maddy Thorson and Alec Holowka (RIP).
Man, every solution to pretty much every societal problem boils down to revolution huh... (that's not a bad thing, fuck capitalism)
I was a raving fan for Dave the Diver when I first started it, and your critiques were exactly what my gripes became for the second half of the game. With the farming mechanics and other features that allow you to skip past a lot of the main gameplay, the game stopped feeling like the game I fell in love with the further I progressed into it
The writing and the constant interrupting every few minutes so Dave can tell that he opened a door really reminded me of Dora the Explorer.
Indie to me just means that the developers are free from a publisher or other company funding them (hell indie is just short for independent anyway). I wouldn't consider Dave the Diver as indie solely for that reason (I don't know enough about Stray to say if it technically qualifies or not). I think saying things like "indies need to be experimental" feels counterproductive. As long as the devs are making what they want to make, I don't see the issue. Some people just want to make more of the kind of things they already like, while maybe adding a twist here or there to make things interesting. Pizza Tower (which was robbed by Dave the Diver btw), Stardew Valley, the boomer shooter scene, Splitgate, Bomb Rush Cyberfunk, etc.
I never think of indie as independent from a publisher, moreso based on how big the studio was while making the game, or how much money it took to make the game. For example: Outer Wilds was picked up by the same publisher of Stray: Annapurna. They gave Outer Wilds the budget to become as good and polished as it is, but the game is still an indie game at it's core, being born from only a few people and their ideas.
Maybe even that definition is kinda closed off. I don't know if we're talking about the same thing here, but Ultrakill has a publisher, and so does Animal Well and Hotline Miami or Children of the Sun. Are they not indie games because of that?
@@gabriellacet1172 Nope. I think the problem these days is that people only think about indie and AAA (or AAAA, but that's just a buzzword used by corporations to make a AAA game seem bigger than it actually is), but games can also be A or AA as well. As soon as an indie game gets a publisher, it becomes A or AA.
@@RednekGamurz dude I never understood what those As meant
@@gabriellacet1172 More As mean bigger budget and more devs working on the game, at least from what I understand. I don't think there's a clear line defining what's what
I actually liked a lot of Dave the Diver's side content. Well, not really the puzzles and games, but the farming parts. You had to actively hunt down the fish you wanted and put them to sleep after injuring them just the right amount. It becomes a bit trivial by the end game when you get very powerful tranquilizer/net guns , but early/mid game that is a major challenge. Especially for sharks or rare animals. It's like getting extra rewards for playing on hard mode.
I respectfully disagree on the fish farm compromising the actual diving core of the game. I see it as essential to maxing out the levels of the recipes since they require a TON of fish toward the last couple levels. Also the branch restaurant you open it helps provide ingredients for them, so there is a balance to it that works IMO
And I’d also like to add, I personally liked the constant stream of variety being added throughout the game, a lot of it can be ignored anyways.
It’s a game that keeps on giving. But that’s just my opinion. It’s prob worth noting that I got adult ADD, so that may be part of the reason I like it.
"I see it as essential to maxing out the levels of the recipes since they require a TON of fish toward the last couple levels" they could have just made it less grindy then
You nust be fun at parties@@LutraLovegood
@@Justcallmeaqua420 It's a perfectly valid argument. Why should a game undermine its own design and force the player to grind instead of actually engaging with the gameplay because the demand for resources increases towards the end? It's not a result of happenstance, it's designed as such.
If farming is sold as a solution to the problem, but the problem is entirely driven by the devs, then they could have just... not done it? And the game would be more fun? Typically a game would do something like increase fish population (perhaps as a result of something the player did in a mission to improve the local wildlife), unlock more effective fish catching methods/items or straight up introduce bigger fish which return more resources when caught.
@@feartrain1282 The problem is that adding new mechanics 6/7ths into the game is that there's not much time to use them. Everyone's least favorite curveball ending, Xen, turned Half Life from an incredible shooter to a first person platformer at the very end. I actually like Xen, it's just jarring.
The late game is when the player's skills are the most honed, and typically when the equipment/character is leveled up so they should be able to take on a challenge and pass it with flying colors.
I agree with a lot of your points, but i also think that its against the indie spirit to no call a game indie just because its doing what other games are doing instead of "rebelling"
Stray looks like you're a drone with a laser pointer telling the cat where to go.
If we go by objective definition, if they have a publisher they're not indie. However the term has indeed blurred a lot and many games can have publishers and be considered indies today.
My take for a game being indie or not:
1. Does it have a publisher?
If Yes, go next. If No, it's indie.
2. Did the publisher only help with marketing the game, and let the developers do whatever they want?
If Yes, it's indie. If No, it's not indie.
Devolver Digital is a good example of a publisher for indies, they do the marketing, but whatever it is that you're making they aren't gonna interfere, your game is your game, they're only gonna give it visibility.
The don't own the game or the IP, and didn't order you to make the game, they're only giving a helping hand, you provide them information on your game, they take a look at your game to see how best to market it, and say "you sir, you sir have something special, want some help?"
An indie game for me can have as much polish or high graphics the devs desire to strive for, if at the end of the day the game is all theirs, they're indie.
If a game studio is owned by a big company that publishes the game, let's say uuuh Konami, whatever, and they have a studio work on a Silent Hill game. Konami owns the Silent Hill IP, Konami owns the game itself, they can cancel it at any time, Konami provides then budget, well the studio is therefore absolutely not indie.
That's my take. That being said...
I'm still in disbelief Stray still won when the other nominated games were Tunic, Neon White, Cult of the Lamb and HOLY SHIT SIFU WAS THERE TOO. Any of these games could've won and I'd say "Y'know what, that's deserved" without disrespect to the others cuz all of them execute what they go for flawlessly and are very different from each other. Ngl Stray had no right even being there, no hate to the devs who put work in it, but I'd replace it for Signalis.
And my favorite underrated indie, Tunic.
Imma cheat and mention another, Outer Wilds, and I guess I mentioned Signalis as well.
Have a good day y'all.
Let's be clear about the Steam awards though. They are a complete joke because of how Valve incentivizes people to vote regardless of whether they have played or even heard of all the games listed. What happens then is people see the list of games, go "Oh yeah I've heard about/played that one" and click on whatever game is most popular. Thus you get things like Starfield winning Most Innovative Gameplay, Red Dead Redemption 2 winning Labour of Love, and The Last of Us winning Best Soundtrack.
I have to say, I don't really jive with the "no true scotsman" way to define indie games towards the end there. Sure, SOME indie games are streamlined five-hour experiences with no extra fluff, but then you have sprawling things like Terraria or Stardew that have incredibly broad scopes and get new areas and mechanics added constantly. Pseudoregalia is 100% an indie game, but the movement isn't that far off from something like Mario Odyssey. Is DUSK doing things all that different from Doom Eternal?
If there was an easy dividing line between indies and AAA games, the devs you talked to wouldn't have struggled like they did. Classification of ANY large group is wiggly, and saying things "don't count" as indie for whatever reason is just setting a bad precedent IMO.
That said, thank you for the clear care and attention you give to indie gaming in general, and for the shoutouts at the end! Corru.observer sounds amazing, and I love Echo.
I feel like indie is not a useful word anymore. If a guy in his basement makes an uninspired, lazy candy crush anime game is that indie? I don't care, it's garbage. I dunno. Everything is art, and most of it is bad but there will always be people making good art. And if a corporation by some miracle makes good art then I guess that's fine??
I liked his sentiments on prioritizing personally manageable, communal impacts, but it was odd hearing Droqen separate Hades (Supergiant Games) from Indie- I'd assume because of its success and praise. The studio has definitely grown over the decade, but I'd reckon they were basically business savvy indie developers who broke away from Electronic Arts and just stuck at it for years.
@@joppa-recoilerI see where you're coming from, but I think something funny is that I just love finding stuff like that sometimes. I'm not gobbling it down 24/7, so when I do stumble across some bizarre, undercooked project of a game, it makes me go "Hm, this guy had some level of talent and passion to construct this, but it's missing something. I wonder what he could pull off if his gaps were filled in by a teammate...!" I've made a few friends this way I think, not any big projects yet though. Someday I hope...!
Pseudoregalia is so much more limited in scope than Mario Odyssey though. And so much more personal, singular, pared down the the essentials, with a story that is purposely kept as vague as possible. It's almost impressionism.
What I love about Pseudoregalia is that it's like they asked "what if our game's movement was as joyful and expressive as Mario 64 and Mario Odyssey, but completely solitary, alienating, and open to interpretation?"
Where else could you get that? Only *those people* could have made *that* game.
I honestly love Dave the Diver's nonsense. Every time I see a minigame, I do a lil squeal. Whether its petting a whale or that one leahs chan scene, I love it. If it was just diving, it would get quite boring.
40:13 that’s a pun. You said there would no more pun. How can we trust you, pixel a day ????!
In other words, great video, loved it, xx
RAIN WORLD MENTIONED WE'RE SO BACK
One of the major issues with DtD's dialogue is that it commits the eternal cardinal sin of breaking the flow. It's one thing to have the game pause and comment on a room or an obstacle, maybe adding a clue to get the player thinking. It's another thing to halt the game upon a solution or change on the situation to comment on it when it is also obvious. I know a lot of people who play games now-a-days don't tend to explore and experiment as we used to be conditioned to do in the past, but they aren't stupid, blind, and deaf. They can see when a door opens right in front of them. It's why things like RE4 Remake having yellow paint might seem condecending, but it is quite an excellent way to convey information to a player base not used to exploration while not breaking the flow or railroading them.
If they really wanted Dave to comment on the player's progress, they could have simply added the text to a little speach bubble that appears upon solving a puzzle section. Or maybe just a little subtitle pops up at the bottom of the screen. Just anything but pausing the entire game so that they can bring up a dialogue box and a sprite, and have Dave do a rather long comment on it all. It completely kills the player's momentum, it kills the flow of the gameplay, and that is bound to not only make the player feel like they aren't fully in control but also like they just can't fully get into the game as they are constantly taken out of it. It's so painful to see, especially as this is a solved formula.
Literally just follow what Call Of Duty is doing when it comes to in-game dialogues, let alone FNAF: Security Breach. No pauses between text after text.
I don't find it to be a huge deal, but yeah I can definitely understand people getting annoyed about it.
most recently, I've been playing through thecatamites' library, and watching him grow as a developer from Space Funeral to his new Anthology of the Killer series has been one of the most inspirational experiences I've ever had. His intentional messiness makes me feel like *I* can make something, it made me start getting messier with my own art, and after finishing Anthology of the Killer I literally started drawing up a zine because the game had built up so much creative excitement in me that I HAD to do something with it.
Glad someone's giving Anthology of the Killer the recognition it deserves lmao
thecatamites rocks!!!!
The space funeral dev is still making stuff? I need to check this out
excellently written video! i agree with what you're saying here completely, and feel like you summarise and communicate your thoughts on these topics in a really eloquent way. instant subscribe!
I immediately subscribed when you admitted to being the friend who rants about rain world
I LOVE Dave the Diver BECAUSE of minigames and other gimmicks that later down the line get automated (particularly the vegetable/egg one). All farming sections make getting fish and ingredients much easier to cook new unlocked dishes. Some minigames are optional, yes, which is why I got a Switch version, not the Steam one, because I don't like to worry about completing a game 100% just to show off that plaque on my Steam profile. When diving became redundant, I waited for the Dredge and Godzilla DLC, because all the dangerous new fish, chases and various boss fighting mechanics, including secret ones, were so much FUN and different from the usual gameplay loop! Since the launch of the game last November, I became obsessed with it when usually I would spend hundreds of hours just on Splatoon 3. Guess that simple at first glance diving game gave my autistic brain a lot of stimulation.
Which I think is the point of it: the game is probably targeted at autistic people like me, who like to micromanage, who love to be involved in constantly new changing mechanics: from seahorse racing and weapon crafting to Tamagotchi lookalike and completing multiple quests! To some, it may be overwhelming. To me, someone who loves the tropical ocean aesthetics and various awesome mechanics, it was awesome to play through it over and over again.
What DID however conserned me was how the game was advertised throughout the Game Awards show. I remember watching Vinny Vinesauce reaction to the whole show, and by the end of it, no wonder he seemed annoyed by the meer mention of this game: about like 4 or 5 ads showcasing this game would just pop up non stop. And I feel like some people would feel the same, which is a shame, as I found a lot of positives about this game and would recommend it to someone who might be into stuff like this just like me.
Anyways, Pizza Tower being robbed by some Cocoon game was something that TRULY REALLY pissed me off in regards to the game awards shows lmao
I didn't play Dave the diver or Stray, but I can respect the honesty and integrity. It's not easy to go against the crowd when it comes to games that everyone is raving about.
The Stray Section feels like so much coping... I do agree that it isn't the most revolutionary gameplay wise. Yet, art isn't about how the technique is so groundbreaking, art is about how effective is at creating an emotional connection with the observer/enjoyer. In that sense, Stray is quite revolutionary, since it allows to experience something that hasn't been able to capture until recently. So yeah, I'm sorry you couldn't achieve catharsis with Stray, and I hope one day there would be a game that allows you to get to that emotional level.
What is this something that hasn't been able to be captured in games until recently? There have been plenty of games recently and throughout history that build a connection between the player and the main character through gameplay mechanics (Dark Souls, S.T.A.L.K.E.R., Celeste, Spec Ops: The Line, etc.), so the game really isn't revolutionary at all in the way that you're describing it.
@@spidermouse1 being able to behave like a cat in an almost realistic way (given some artistic liberties) and view the world through the eyes of such animal. That, for what I know, it hasn’t been done prior.
@@tobi1314 There have been a good amount of games that have the player interacting with the world in the way an animal would, and with a much higher degree of player control than in Stray. Some that I can think of are:
- Carrion
- Aliens vs Predator 2010
- The Shelter series
- Gato Roboto
- Rain World, which was mentioned in this video
And probably a lot more that I haven't played. Also, the point about the player not having enough control over the cat still stands. The cat might be able to interact with the environment realistically, but that doesn't change the fact that the player themselves are just looking for the next ledge and then pressing x.
Bro, a dog's life released like 15 years prior (yeah it's a dumb game but still)
The emotional connection seems to stem from the existence of the cat, mostly. To which I say, that's not new, nor revolutionary, nor does it make a great game. How does including a cat equal revolutionary deep emotional connection?
Despite being made by Capcom of all things, I think Shinsekai: Into the Depths will be massively up your alley. It's everything Dave the Diver isn't; messy visuals, focused on a central premise and perhaps most importantly of all, quiet and contemplative. It embodies the spirit of indie and flew massively under the radar, an underappreciated gem that could never see the stage of an awards show.
Great video!
If you're looking for indie games by watching the game awards then maybe you're just not thinking very hard
This is an incredible video. I went down a philosophical rabbit hole while on an edible(lmao i know how silly that sounds) wondering why I didn't like these highly acclaimed games, despite seemingly being the target audience. Your video randomly showed up in my recommends.
You articulated exactly my issues with these indie games, the game awards, and why gaming is such a special, magical medium. Games media wants to be taken seriously as an art form, yet they focus on the safest, blandest games.
Thanks for the video. ❤
Wow you have philosophical epiphanies while on edibles?! I just confusedly wonder "is time real" for three hours
Oh my god I have never felt a video so much in my life. I found myself agreeing more and more with everything you said. I bought Stray because everyone was saying it was like Rain World, and was EXTREMELY dissapointed.
WHO SAID IT WAS LIKE RAIN WORLD OH MY GOD
Just because you didn't liked something doesn't mean that it's bad
The fact that Pizza Tower didn't get anything made me die inside.
It sold well as a cult hit. An indie usually can't ask for more than that.
I cannot tell you how much I adore your videos
THANK YOU for the captions, especially on such a long video
You're welcome!
What I love about indie games is that people can take their little weird idea that doesn't seem at all marketable on paper and let you experience it. Like even if the result isn't very good quality as long as the price is fair I find it delightful to see what people can come up with. In general my favorite art is the kind that gives you an experience you'd never have expected to have.
Makes me think a bit of Cookie Cutter and the lead dev's intentions behind that game. He went over a hundred interviews with possible publishers before he found one that was comfortable with letting that game be what it is and not make it more marketable.
There's not many games out there where the main character is a somewhat chubby angry android lady with a chelsea cut and a delight for violence setting out to save her lover in a very colorful sci-fi/cyberpunk dystopia inhabited by amorous skeleton robots, magical androids, chunky toad people, a Hindu demon with a belly mouth and a weapon selection consisting of a chainsaw, a plasma cannon and a motorbike (among some others).
He wanted to make something that is really *his*. Not here to reinvent the wheel but to make something born of his love and tastes in media.
It's always sad to see game awards were there are multiple greats nominees but in the end it's just the more popular one that wins. In 2022, all other nominees were much better than Stray (especially Tunic because it has an alien language you actually have to understand yourself)
Cat person here. Stray having a cat avatar wasn't why the gameplay resonated with us. It was all the extra details that made me feel like I was role-playing as a cat. I've completed the game twice so I know my enjoyment wasn't hype blindness. On the other hand, I've tried playing dishonored 3 times and I never get more than a few hours in before I feel bored by the clunky movement and uninstall.
I agree
So… when I talk to myself, I say things like “Let’s go.” “You can do this.” “Come on Danielle.” So it’s not bad writing to have a character talk to themselves by saying “Let’s” instead of “I.” Maybe I watched and read too much LOTR and took on a Sméagol element to my personality, but I’m pretty sure I remember talking to myself while looking in the mirror at a super young age, so I think it’s just what came naturally to me.
I disagree with many, many things you said about Dave the Diver, but those are opinions based on your personal taste, which are fine to disagree on. This was the one that I felt was unfair- calling something bad writing, when it was completely fine.
Great video! Both reviews of games were humorous and informative at the same time. Second half is thought provoking and made me question myself what indie really is. Hope you will get more recognition since your work is wort it
Despite all the disclaimers that this isn't supposed to be gatekeepy or judgmental, I'm finding that every such disclaimer... is followed up by something that sounds very much gatekeepy and/or judgmental. Or at least very patronizing in a "well, I guess it's fine if you like these baby games" way. It all just comes off a lot like the "anti-casual" "hardcore gamer" attitude that unfortunately manifests in communities like the Dark Souls fandom.
And I don't understand the point of putting down some games to lift up others. Why couldn't this video have literally just been "If you liked Stray, please check out Rain World" or something?
Indie games are thriving. Another Crab's Treasure isn't viral "just because", it's a genuinely good game too and one made by a fully independent studio. Dead Cells is literally still one of the top 100 on the Steam charts and Motion Twin is a freaking worker's co-op. Crab Champions is made by one guy who composed Crab Rave once, got internet famous... And then decided to just do his own thing and somehow produced one of the best third person shooters in recent memory as a solo dev. The overwhelmingly positive list on Steam is packed from top to bottom with truly indie games. And small, innovative, eccentric games that absolutely leaned into being unconventional? They're absolutely killing it on this list. I'm looking right now. Chants of Sennaar, Hylics, Baba is You, Balatro... The list just keeps going and going and going.
On the flipside, Baldur's Gate 3 might be a big-budget "triple-i" title, but it was still made without some giant publisher breathing down people's necks and telling them to take fewer risks. It's gone mainstream despite being in a very, very niche genre, because it's that damn good. Same goes for something like Hades II on a smaller scale. These games aren't compromising themselves for mass appeal despite their high production values. And then there are devs who really do just WANT to do popular things because they like to play those popular things - say what you will about Palworld and "originality", but right down to the literal code of the game being held together by duct tape and the way they scraped together a dev team by taking chances on complete unknowns, it's built on the bones of nothing but the scrappiest and most authentic indie energy.
Also, it just kind of seems like the position of award shows is being way overvalued here to begin with. Last I checked, the Game Awards weren't really taken seriously in a broader sense. The voting round that put Starfield in an award was literally a 4chan meme vote and basically purely sarcastic, but that hasn't been mentioned once here. I think Stephanie Sterling's take of "just don't take these awards seriously because they're not seriously anything beyond advertisement shows, and they've never been any different" is the correct one, frankly.
I mean I play The Game Awards with a BINGO card, I am definitely not taking them seriously :) What I think you're missing is that any list of deservingly successful indie games like the one you posted contains a heavy survivorship bias. By definition, they are the ones that made it. DUSKERS for example is a far better roguelike than Dead Cells and has less than 1% of the Steam reviews, ULTRA ULTRA had to close down after the criminally underrated ECHO, Signs of the Sojourner has just 133 reviews on Steam despite being one of the best indie games released in the last 5 years. If you're simply looking at the successes, you're not seeing the full picture.
@@PixelaDay Okay, but what part of that requires tearing some games down to prop those up? Like I said. Why not make a video about "go check out DUSKERS and ECHO and Signs of the Sojourner, these shouldn't be forgotten even though other games are taking all the viral hype"? What do you achieve with what really just comes across as a sort of... Highlandering of the indie game field? We can enjoy all of these games. It doesn't have to be a competition. In fact, it seems counterproductive to treat it like one. You know what I actually love about indie releases nowadays? The "here, check out our friends" section that usually involves better publicized games shouting out lesser known ones. That's great. It's led me to discover new stuff to wishlist and pick up in my monthly Steam hoovering. I would love it if videos just told me "Hey, if you picked up Dave the Diver, have you considered these lesser known titles that are actually pretty great?"
I recently got lucky and found a cute game... by accident. I was looking at the shadow drop of EA classics on the store, and while the dev said that having so many titles dumped on the store buried her game off Popular New Releases... I literally only found it because I was checking out the EA drop and scrolled down past the line of retro games. So of course I did what came naturally: Bought Potions: A Curious Tale just to support the solo dev, in the same cart as all the odd little retro EA titles I came to pick up in the first place. Because why not both? Why not both. Both is good.
Also, the point was just that these games vastly outnumber AAA titles in the list of the most well-liked games. That's all.
@@FelisImpurrator From a random stranger on the internet: Would you be interested in hearing of some indie games (already out and upcoming) of which I suspect many have not heard of them?
I'll give three freebies: My Familiair, Zet Zillions and Loco Motive.
@@jurtheorc8117 Neat. Only seen the second. Thanks!
@@FelisImpurrator first time i've seen a reply be more liked than the creators reply, people must really agree with you
Loved that you used dave the diver soundtrack for the entire video
It's a great soundtrack ngl
The funny thing is that the term "indie" has gone the same exact route in the music industry and not just once but in repeating cycles. We never learn and repeat the same mistake. I feel like we are at the end of a cycle and a design revolution is imminent and coming
Incredible video. I can’t imagine how much work must have went into making this. Very inspiring to watch. Big fan 👏
Thank you so much! :)
Good Lord. I never played Dave the Diver, and now I'm very glad.
it should have been pizza tower
And to be fair, this is often just as much of a problem with users as it is with the presenters of these game awards. The reason bland, least-common-denominator design is popular with AAA developers is because it sells, and the reason it tends to win awards is because it's popular with users. If people didn't vote for Dave The Diver as Best Indie Game, it wouldn't win the Steam award for Best Indie Game. Yes, we can argue that it should never have been on the ballot, but if people had voted for Do Not Feed The Monkeys 2099, then that's what would've won.
they sell because they won't make anything else.
You are talking about what is being called "triple i". I think it formed it has formed because AAA games cost $200 mil & AA cost over $50 mil. So, some smaller games that used to be called indie moved up a level into the few million $ range.
mwaaaa i feel like the triple I initiative showcased true indie games, maybe call them.. oh yeah. AA. Just a thought
A game can be AAA simply with a budget of $30 Million, Remedy games is proof of this, they aren't indie.
I'll be honest, after what you just described what dave the diver is, i actually got interested in playing it lol
Yeah the absurd amount of mini games and chaos of systems made the game way more fun for me
I love Dave the Diver
Finally someone who think the same on Stray ! Even though I'm a cat people game design is no joke for me : these people have just took advantage of the toxoplasma gondii cat people are parasited with..
Also as a Cat people, like living with 11 cats, i can safely say that the animation is not that good, especially the targeted feeling of a playing a living cat. Spyro was better animated. Good animation is not just about having good animations parts, transitions are important.
I will never stop talking about The Longing. If you haven't played it, GO PLAY IT
Argghhh it's on my wishlist!! Good people keep talking about it so I know it's good
It feels like a villain era, speaking more and more directly against popular consensus. I'm so happy you're doing this.
Struggling against the tide of history does not make someone a villain. More like a hero.
@@noneofyourbusiness4616 a read Jean-Paul Sartre would be proud of
I think the missing language here is 'AA' - a game with AAA sensibilities, done on a lower budget.
They're appropriating the now lucrative term 'indie' (for something they don't control), and applying it to what we used to call AA (something they do control).
The game awards don't have an indie category, they have a AA category - actual indies still aren't invited. And I don't think it's a coincidence that, as game awards have gotten bigger and bigger, the term AA seems to be dying out even as those games get more and more awards.
God I wish Hellblade: Senuas Sacrifice didn't bury all it's greatness in AAA sensibilities. Stopped playing when they tried to break up the gameplay with some torch puzzles or something, but it was a real loss.
The difference between indie and AAA is all about the budget. A game can still be indie and have a big budget
The discussion about Dave the Diver and Stray having an excellent starting premise that it later abandons in favour of something less appealing reminded me of watching Disney's "Dinosaur" (2000) as a kid after seeing the entirely nonverbal and cinematic opening sequence in the trailer, only to find out it was a essentially a quippy prehistoric family adventure movie for the next hour.
Haven't watched the last section yet, maybe there's a big picture reason you're so critical of these games, but I think it's a unfair to say "All these people enjoyed Stray, and I didn't for valid reasons, so the game isn't good and they're all cat crazed idiots"
It's fine that you didn't enjoy the game, but that may have made you biased when analysing and presenting it. For example, you pointed at a lot of game tropes implying they were a negative, but you never explained why for many of them. Simple side quests aren't inherently bad unless you personally dislike them, and they're there to get you to explore the interesting level design that you never mentioned
Speaking of which, you talked about the movement mechanics without mentioning the level design. I'm sure I don't need to explain this, but those two things are deeply interconnected. Stray's movement is simple because its levels often aren't
Maybe you were expecting something incredibly out-of-the-box because you got reminded of rainworld. If Stray advertised itself as some unique and niche game, then I could see why recogniseable elements would be bad by default. But it wasn't advertised like that, of course. The opening segment wasn't a rainworld reference, it was a brief tone setter
Stray’s environment art isn’t simple. It’s detailed and dense. Stray’s levels however, are simple. Incredibly so.
@@willuigi64 The linear levels definitely can be, I'm more talking about like the slums or the anthill where it's very vertical, and it's not always clear what you can jump to
As a person who studied the game industry at uni, the literal definition of an indie game is a game with a small budget created by a small development team.
Triple A is the exact opposite.
Dave the Diver is not an indie game by definition.
The way you describe Stray as a "shittier big game" is what you call a Double A game.
Stray really coulda been a gif of a cat
But anyways, if the game had had a smaller budget, maybe with less pressure from on high corporate, it could've been a better game
Why'd they start making the game? Probably, because somebody said "look, cats are so graceful and cool and stuff, wouldn't it be neat to make really great movement animations for a cat, and we can port what we learn into future projects?"
And they done did that!
For an indie dev, that's probably the point where they go "ok, I've learned a lot, now lets go give players an obstacle course to play in with their new cat model"
But no
These guys still had budget
So their conversation probably went "ok, we've got the model, now where's the game"
And thus their amazing jumping cat model was sidelined in favor of the most atmospheric puzzle solving game they could think up
As opposed to the, arguably much more fun thing it could've been, which is a parkour platformer sorta thing
Maybe with a cutsie, cat person's dream house art style, with just a lot of things to play with as a cat
Coulda had the joke be that cats always land on their feet, so if your cat jumps into a ceiling fan, or falls and hits a bar on the way down, they go into an exaggeratedly funny spin, but somehow land perfectly
Or maybe gone with that one pigeon shitter simulator, or untitled goose game, where the goal is to make your humans lives miserable by trying to trip them, hide the tv remote, knock stuff off the counter, stuff like that
Or build in multiplayer and or a map maker, like zeepkist or that one marble track game, where you make parcore levels to challenge people, or cat racing
All of these ideas, much more fun to play, and make better use the most likely very difficult animation they made, than.. the sitting, or pacing around as you try to solve a puzzle
It's obvious the model was made for action
So where's the action?
I dunno, the lowest common denominator gameplay contributed to its amazing sales... Not to say that nobody on that game had artistic vision but... Clearly, making money was a goal and actually skill based platforming is not what gets you there. BTW I played and kinda liked it because I was burned out on difficult games at the time. So the above isn't meant to insult it, more to say that games I want to love are too damn hard for me at times.
It's absurd to me that somebody could complain about TOO MUCH things to do in a GAME??? Maybe it's my ADHD brain that speaks here but what made Dave the Diver fun for me WAS the absurd amount of things to do. Once I've finished the storyline and what was left was just fishing and managing a restaurant I got bored and, well, stopped playing
The thing is that it's mostly fluff and filler. It has a lot of stuff for you to do, but most of it is not very interesting nor actually different from what you have already done. So it does an excellent job at entertaining you but you keep playing by inertia and immediately forget most of what you did. Still if you just want to distract yourself and have a chill time, I personally think it's pretty good.
I've got also adhd and i noticed for myself how that stuff just burns me out very quickly. It creates stress for me and i okay indie games to get personal stories and design, because that is extremly interesting for me.
I live stay, but it's not innovative. And i put Dave the Diver on my wishlist, but i think i will take it off again, because most of the time i play games after work when i just wanna chill out.
Rule of thumb: don't use videos of the final boss fight since it is clearly a spoiler.
41:43 you can't believe how excited i was when you started mentioning my favorite games one after the other (even dyo!)