Since you are new to Chip Theory games, you may not realize that all of their cards are PVC. This even includes the large cards like Rule sheets and player aids. You never need card sleeves with Chip Theory games. Too Many Bones and Cloudspire are both around $150. This game has as many dice as Too Many Bones, as much Neoprene as Cloudspire, as much Chips as either game and many more cards. I am also sure that the IP license is adding cost to the game. I don't have an issue with them making a profit.
Also the chips are weighted which took seconds to research and has a two part with an insert which makes them more expensive to make... Just lazy for these types of videos. Jus a bit of research before making the video.
I think it will be interesting to see how KOA reviews the product once it is delivered. I do wish all the paper components like cards, player aids etc in other board games were made the same as a CTG game. EDIT: This game is also a shift to the type of games KOA normally backs. It would be similar if he investigated historical GMT or Compass games wargames and the cost of those.
Long post incoming... disclaimer: I am not a native english speaker ;) Hey KoA, I usually enjoy watching your videos, but I feel like you're overlooking some things here and are not 100% on point this time. I may be wrong aswell, just thought I'd drop my 2 cents anyways as constructive criticism and ideally to come out smarter after writing that comment. So, I want to start with the first point you're making: The spreading out of the material as to make things seem more where they aren't. I truly believe this is not the case here, as a) you get an overview prior to the detailed version of what is in the box and b) everything included (or likely included as the game is not 100% finished as mentioned in the livestream they did) is transparently shown in each category, which I honestly enjoy more than a cluttered picture of everything where you'd have to guess what is what. I think the critique you're making may be true for other campaigns more than it is here. The second, big thing you're talking about and the question if this all is worth $200 is also not even remotely fair in my opinion and you leave out key things that definitely need to be priced into that game. First of all - no, what we see on the campaign is not worth $200 and it is not supposed to be worth that much. It is what you, as a customer are paying AFTER all is done. And that does not only include the cost of material and/or shipping, that includes paying staff to create the game, paying artists to design the game, potentially paying for housing where all that takes place, likely paying for the IP itself, paying for marketing and then paying for the production of the game. They said they have been working on this project for 2 years now and are likely working on it for another year, just imagine the salaries paid if you put like 3 people 9 to 5ing on it. And after all is said and done, they of course also want to make a profit with that game where I believe it is way smaller than what you suggest it will be. I agree with your last point of the "extras" though, they are coming with a hefty margin and I do believe this is also the main driver for a bigger profit. So yeah, maybe I overestimate costs here, I can't be sure, but looking at everything it actually feels like a fair price to me, especially considering the time that already went into that campaign and the hours of work that go into a game like that. Nonetheless, I think it's fair to say it is too much for one individually and not back it, after all I believe in CTG delivering a great experience well worth the money.
I would rather back an expensive game from a company that has a successful business model and knows their margins to keep the lights on. Too many companies are pricing games with too thin of margins and can’t sustain solvency.
That being said, after VAT and import costs well over 200 euros for a game is very steep. I got Oathsworn at SPIEL for 180 and that's a massive game. This is in the same price range as Frosthaven. And if you compare those this'll lose big time as far as content goes. But, still backed ofcourse as I'm a sucker for these games and it'll hit my table frequently, no problem 😊
In my opinion, most funds are required to pay multiple full time employees for two or three years. Then there are two options: sell it with high price and stay in business or do it the Mythic way. In addition, in the past I had some insight in IP related contracts (not boardgame related, but I think the differences should be minor). IP costs can be huge and we should not underestimate them.
IP costs are supposed to LOWER prices bcause developers can rely on the higher volume that comes with the IP. That's more or less the whole point to popular IPS.
@@jamesdavid7782 end stage of production yes the IP moves product. However the upfront entering into the contract, having to approve all art and designs, having to run all lore past Bethesda and adding all of that to the dev time. This is 3 years of work that has to be back payed essentially.
You always pay VAT over shipping, wether it's up front or later if they charge shipping in the pm. At least that's the case for me in the Netherlands. So I really like that shipping is included. Crowdfunding in general is so expensive though (in Europe) that I doubt you ever really get it cheaper than in retail. You back it because of the exclusives and uncertain availability later.
same for UK. VAT is also charged on shipping. Whilst that may feel punitive, I believe that arose from companies in the past increasing shipping costs to decrease price (and hence reduce VAT).
Very much disagree. Gloomhaven, Frosthaven and Oathsworn were dead cheap at original launch. I also got 3 Aeon's End games very cheap compared to retail prices. I always estimate the hours of gameplay we can get out of a game and for boardgames it's usually around max 2$ per hour when it's good value.
It depends on the print run. Oathsworn 2nd and Isofarian Guard, both not available in retail here in Germany, were scandalously cheap in their first run but the second printings saw a big increase in overall price. I am sure they went too cheap at first and now equal the real costs (at least to my next to zero knowledge of material costs...) but I missed the first print on both games and the second print runs certainly had the sticker shock moment for me.
I’m actually genuinely surprised with all the hate towards the price. With all chip theory games we are to expect high prices. But, that said, I think you’re really underestimating the quality. Those cards aren’t card stock but pvc. The rulebooks are freaking plastic. The neoprene is stitched, beautiful, and thick. Not all neoprene is built the same. CTG always goes to the extreme. That said, all their games are soooo expensive. Too many bones base box isn’t much cheaper and yet this seems to have way more content. I don’t think you can count the number of hours of content in this box. And that content, from experiencing their previous games, is most likely to be fun, unique, and incredibly interesting. With so many builds and quests, I’d expect to play this game for hours and hours. But, that said, it is expensive. It took me a long time to dip my toes into too many bones. But I don’t regret it. Even if I don’t have that much content for it, I love what I have. Ppl comparing this to $400 worth of minis in other games they’ll play twice seems silly. This is a game that will get played time and time again in many collections. But I wouldn’t blame anyone for walking away from this unwilling to take a $200 chance on an unknown. That’s a ton of money. But many backers have tried CTG and they’re back for more.
I agree with everything you said minus a couple of things. I am not sure your getting the exact price of the chips for the game. Yes standard plastic Poker Chips are cheap, however once you up the type and quality they can get really expensive. Even more so then mini's. My friend plays card games, and goes to those cash Poker type game, and he has a set of 500 Pure Clay 10 Gram Poker Chips that cost him 220$. He said a price of 50 would be around 35$, that's around 4$ a chip. He said the chips in Chips theory games are equivalent to his Pure Clay Chips. So the 40$ pack of 65 Premium health chips is actually a good deal following that pricing. I would also argue them putting crap plastic chips in the base game is the same thing that many do with dice, they give you crap dice, and then offer better dice as an add on. The other thing I would argue is the Neoprene mat, is 35" by 42" which is just a little bit smaller then their Burn cycle mat which was 35" by 44". Both are the same price. Let me just tell you based on the size of the Burn Cycle mat, the mat is massive and is one of the biggest mats I own. The only other mat that is quite large like that is the one in Western Legends 47" by 25" which was 35$, but its half as thick, non-stitched and non-double sided. So I think the 60$ price tag is accurate for what you getting on the mat. Do you really need it, no not at all. But I feel like the quality is their to warrant the price.
oh I didn't realize the mat was so big, that's actually pretty decent. It's still cheap to make, but that's more akin to normal prices then, or at least not hugely outlandish. As for the clay chips, they aren't clay though right? They are plastic? I'll know once they deliver, but I looked up weighted poker chips (which I assume are made the same way) and they were still around $10 for a nice set of them in a wooden box. Your friend might pay $200+ for specialty stuff, but that doesn't make it priced as fairly as alternatives. Once you get to that "premium" zone the pricing changes wildly, like business prices for travel. That and this game is not in a vacuum. We have their other offerings to compare to. Their recent Victorum was $95 and has a ton of those chips. It's no coincidence that they have a new record for how much to charge on their big IP offering.
I feel the price is expected. Right now in Australia Too Many Bones is $230 aud + Shipping ($10-15 depending on the store) TMB expansions are $55 + Shipping. Elder scrolls is ~$300 aud base which considering licensing and "free" shipping that's an expected increase. The expansion is a good deal, being almost the same price as a TMB expansion + "free" shipping when getting the gameplay all in.
This depends though, for backers in the US this might be expensive. But for us in South East Asia which usually have to pay 60-100$ USD shipping then it's actually pretty cheap. The shipping for Isofarian Guard to my country is 200$ so, this game is actually free for me, I just need to pay for shipping :)
I'm sure we owe a good portion of that price to Zenimax. Also, I love the fact that I can get free shipping and be confident that I won't get asked for money later, amd that Chip Theory will likely not close down any time soon
You realize the all in is cheaper than many big box games that have sold gang busters. Factor in shipping being free (this game will be HEAVY) and this is cheaper than games like Oathsworn for example. But no one lost their minds over the price of those.
I think when you get it, you'll feel it's worth it. Not from a gameplay perspective, but from the components. It's not just CTG's reputation for quality, it's the *actual* quality. It's having all the cards be plastic (so you don't have to sleeve, if you do) - it's about them being good quality chips and neoprene. Yes, they can be done cheaper - but these won't be. CTG's games are the only "premium" games I've ever properly felt that from. Despite all the posturing, outside of the minis, you can see the corners that were cut in a KDM box. Their games really feel like high quality in a way no others have matched. Yes, it's a bit like how with an Apple phone you open it and get that nice feeling that yes, you've bought something valuable and it's presented really well... but unlike an Apple phone, you get to revisit that feeling every time you open it up and play it. In terms of the two specific things you mentioned: playmats - CTG avoided playmats for a long time, with the argument that "everything is already neoprene, why do you want more?" - and it's a good argument and is also why their playmats don't actually sell as well as others. If you've already got a generic neoprene mat for your gaming table they really don't add much. They're not replacing a board. The mat they're selling is pretty big also and doesn't compare that badly to 3ftx3ft stitched wargaming mats on price. The health chips - pretty much every CTG game uses the "unit chip on top of health chips to track health" - and while the premium health chips are great, you only really need one set for all their games (or like you say, can just buy a pack of poker chips) - I've actually seen them on social media encourage people to do this in the past. Your Cloudspire or Too Many Bones premium health chips will be just fine for this. So I don't think it's quite as cynical as you think. (Now, when they did this when TMB first came out, it may have been a bit cynical, for sure.)
This was a great video that had me thinking for days. After mulling it over though, I realized while the profit margins must be there for this to work, there has to be a pretty dramatic difference between this and the standard methods we usually see for us to have seen zero copy-cats after years of CTG proving successful following this model.
I don’t see a point if good Games, honest Campaigns and Consumer Friendly Companies, make Money. It’s their purpose. I like your Comparison with Apple, they are expensive too, but deliver Quality. And Apple also was setting Standards for other cheaper Mobile Companies. If CTG will do so in Future for boardgames, i am fine with it. What you didn’t mention, they are not using Fomo, in their Campaigns, which is a huge plus for me, and a standard I would like to see in the future for other Companies. I am free to decide, if I want to lent them Money now, to grow their Company or if don’t want to. I will be able to buy the exact same Game with all Components in the future, just purchase it later, maybe a few month after delivery, for just a bit increase in price, maybe 20%. Or even cheaper or same price on secondary market, cause their Quality Components are so top notch, it’s like buying an refurbished iPhone, you wont feel or see the difference.
Ehhhhhh let's not talk about apple setting standards lmao. That ended loooong ago. They're playing catch up to android by like 4 years at this point. Like yes their hardware is premium and their software infrastructure is user friendly. But it is undoubtedly behind and nowhere near as customisable.
Many people in the comments are pointing out interesting points and good feedback. I’d like to add other considerations that go into research and development, paying employee salaries, and the marketing production. While the manufacturing portion may appear inflated on the surface, I’m curious about how the overall price seems when you take those other factors, not discussed in this video into account. (You did mention shipping being baked in as well)
Incidentally you never charge for something like "design" time. The idea is that the design produces the product that ends up paying for the design. But you don't charge $50 for a deck of cards just because it took you longer to design them than the other companies selling them for $30. That's not how pricing works with products. Like all things in real life, it's more complex than you can possibly talk about briefly of course. When my first job out of college with working on HP printers my father asked how they could possibly need so many people just to make a printer. No one ever realizes all the various stuff that goes into something complex, and board games are certainly complex, touching many different manufacturing industries and then deliver? Ooof!
If it was just about a singular game and not a company with employees and contractors for art and other services, then I would agree with not factoring in things like “design” time. But, like you said, things get much more complex when you start factoring in all of those intangible things outside of components. Like Thomas said, a business has to have some way of recouping their design and development costs and still turn a profit as a company. Side note: Thanks for doing a video analyzing board game material cost. I’d actually like to see a video segment where you possibly go over some of those other details that could factor into the cost of a game. Maybe you could manage an interview with one of the developers to go over things they need to consider. I’m sure they can’t share hard numbers of things like employee salaries, but it would be nice to know what considerations they have to make when deciding on what “MSRP” should be for a product they are trying to deliver.
@@TheKingofAverage isn't it? Isn't that a huge part of the Kingdom Death (and Games Workshop) business model? These are "premium" miniatures with loads of effort put into the design, so we charge a lot more? I'll acknowledge it's *rare* for this to happen in the board game industry at least but it does happen. The entire fashion industry lives off it too.
Higher end poker chips can be around $0.50 but at these quantities they should at most be .25 a chip, the base game has 79 chips so max cost is probably $19.75 on the chips
@@Boardgametherapist That's the rule of thumb for games that go through retail distribution where the distributor and the store get their cut. They don't exist for KS and direct to customer games so there should be less of a markup.
I backed at the $230 level and I am backer #550, the one thing I did was the stretch pay system which is a brilliant thing for people who can't justify spending that amount or can't afford a big lump sum I have said about this before, it is a nice feature on Gamefound and I think it would be nice for Kickstarter to adopt this approach, I am looking forward to this as I am a massive fan of Oblivion and Skyrim but also I am a consistent player on Elder Scrolls Online, thanks for pointing out some things in this video, looking forward to seeing your unboxing video, thanks KoA :D
The game will be amazing and will be worth it for me i’m sure. Plus i’m happy it’s not a big campaign game you never finish but a more manageable and replayable one. Every stretch goal unlocked add to that replayability directly. Sometimes quality over quantity is better. I think this is the case with this one. Especially with the quality of material and ease to set-up and tear down.
I’ve never played a CTG game, so I thought, with the IP, this would be the one for me to take the plunge. But after looking at the price, I’m not so sure. I’m not afraid to spend money on some big games (I’ve got KDM, AT:O, etc) but what I would be getting with this one seems really small in comparison. Also the “campaign” component of this game seems really weak and I have serious questions about replayability. (I’m curious what your thoughts are on that aspect.). When I consider what to spend $200 on for crowdfunding this month, Townsfolk Tussle is looking like a better value.
That is my concern also - replayability. I don’t like how there are no rules or clear component list. The game has an act 1-3 structure. Where acts 1,2 are different regions and different quests. Act 3 seems to be fighting the same boss, always? Not sure on this point, asked the question of CTG with no answer as yet. So for me I’m interested, but definitely have some questions.
Yes, the Act 1 and 2 always leading to the same showdown is particularly worrisome. And how much variation are we actually going to have in the Act 1&2 quests? They have talked about different permutations of guilds and regions, but if it is light on story (and it seems very light on story) what is the real difference?
Yes, I don’t want to pay $200 for a one or two shot game. I also don’t like the very limited and generic maps. I think maybe a dollar pledge on this one and wait and see what emerges in reviews.
I wonder sometimes if we do a disservice to ourselves by assessing value of a game by the number of components or possible hours of entertainment for the price it has rather than the enjoyment it provides, the tightness of the experience or the depth of the decisions.
As a backer who is willing to overlook a lot for the high price, I am a little amazed and annoyed by the very low number of cards.... Feels like a very cheap/easy way to increase variety
i am out at this price. ;-) And for the EU VAT topic: Here in germany it's 19% on top, even on shipping. If a "kickstarter" charge e. g. 20 für shipping its ~ 24 in real here. But 195 real dollar, (not the "fake" canadian dollar ;-) even if shipping is included, is too much.
I really don’t get the VAT Discussion around crowdfunding, living in Germany too. Don’t you understand you pay VAT all the time, repairing your car, buying on Amazon, buying Food, going to a cinema? Only because it wasn’t collected in previous years on international crowdfunding, doesn’t mean it’s such a big thing to discuss, don’t you think? Also don’t you see collecting VAT and taxes, for the State, is for your own benefit. Free schools, support students, supporting poor people and refugees, building and repairing infrastructure, not having so much homeless people, so much crime, because of supporting more equality. I know nothing is perfect over here, we could do more, the state could vaste less and investing more wisely into the future and into next generations, I know. And it’s certainly true, VAT and taxes could be collected more from rich, than from normal people sure. But always complaining about paying VAT, only seeing the negative in it, I truly can’t stand it. It’s a deluxified Hobby, nothing necessary, and we are able to pay deluxe VAT and Taxes for it, for the greater benefit of our society. Don’t you think?
We are talking about it because it's not 200$ but 250$ for single boardgame with very little stuff inside. For 250$ you can buy like 4-5 games with same amount if not more content. I think lot of people were looking forward to back this game becase of the ip and than saw the price tag and were understandably disappointed.
For me, it was the exact opposite. I saw the Elder Scrolls game advertisement, and passed over it several times until I saw that Chip Theory was the game publisher. Chip Theory games are some of my favorite for many reasons.
Not about the money for me, it’s the fact that I feel this is so similar to other games. Does this really bring anything to the table that Descent, oathsworn, league of dungeoneers, or even Gloomhaven doesn’t bring? If I didn’t own any campaign style dungeon crawls and was a big fan of ES then this would be enticing, but personally it’s too similar to other unplayed dungeon crawls that I already own.. That being said, I still want it
CTG have regularly stated that margins are pretty tight on their core box games and the majority profit lies in the expansion content. This is the reason they have given that discounts on crowd funding are usually very small. The ~11g chips are heavy because they are not just plastic they have a metal core for weight and it's why the Brass mags in Burncycle stick to them. So the weighted chips are not just higher density plastic single efforts. My quick calculation is they charge about 0.50 per metal weighted chip. AFAIK printed Neoprene is relatively expensive.. if it was really cheap then other companies would be using it more regularly. Ultimately CTG make expensive relatively "luxury" games and wrt crowd funding they don't participate in FOMO so i your not up for backing you can always buy from their store later so not comparable to say CMON with all the FOMO huge margin exclusive add-on content. AFAIK development has also been extended (higher costs) as the IP owner want oversight of everything...so it's not just paying the IP cost i would guess? Ultimately you backed it before the page updated with the box content .. :)
Great info thank you! Always interested in learning stuff like how they are made. You can buy weighted poker chips aplenty on the cheap. A box of them for $10 and such and that includes the all wooden box for storage. I assume it's standard weighting tech. Funny it's also just sticking metal in it like our electronics :D Agreed on the luxury, and I wish I had thought of saying that word when describing that very thing long winded. Also a confident back. You know you'll get the game, you know it'll be quality. But you do end up paying for that confidence and luxury. Many of us are happy to do so too!
@@alescervinka7501 Right, like the numerous high end game companies that are going out of business (Holy Grail, Mythic, Highborne, Blacklist, etc). Board game companies ARE deep in the red in many cases. People have misconceptions about what their fancy toys cost, especially with post-covid inflation. Considering the shipping's covered and the amount of content in the box, this game seems completely reasonable to me. Oathsworn and Frosthaven are both a lot more + have shipping on top and the Oathsworn team have talked at length about not really making ANY profit on the first go around.
What about the lack of reviews of this game? Lack of gameplay videos? (I only know of 2 and they both suck.) What about those gameplay videos not having good prototype components? Even you said the page wasn't ready when the campaign started. The thing you get for this IP are maps and iconography. No thanks. Won't back it because I'm burnt out on getting these expensive games that have horrible or even just dull gameplay.
Because the game isn't fully developed yet. Yeah I know with a lot of modern companies they just use KS as a store front for a finished product (so no money loans /interest to pay back on) but CTG don't. CTG tend to come very early to KS and take a bit more feedback from backers so the backing process covers a fair the development cycle not just the manufacturing and shipping costs.
@@RocketMagnetUK That's my point. It isn't fully developed yet. You don't know what game you are buying. All you know is it's like Too Many Bones with an ESO skin.
@@timf7354 Yeah agreed, however CTG always come early in the development cycle. A large number of modern companies don't need CF they just use it as a pre-order system for a free loan (no investors to pay back). Still both the company and backers can benefit as there is no middleman investment money to pay). Personally I'd argue CTG are behaving more in the spirit of what Crowd Funding is fundamentally than most other companies. As for Reskins.. unfortunately this is the modern world as new stuff is too risky (see Burncycle CTGs last totally new game/IP struggled so hence this is the result IMO).. so companies say .. hey our new game is like this thing you already like and its based on this IP... hence it sells. Just look at CMON they've been releasing the same fundamental game for years with a new skin and some tweaks and they do gang busters. Same arguments have been made over all the recent CTG campaigns but thats just how they do it.. and very clearly say .. hey if your not sure wait for the final game and buy it from our store later as it's not CF exclusive.
the comments are kind of all over the place. Fans defending, people hating. its silly. The game is expensive. make no mistake. is it worth it? for each to decide. are they making money? of course they are, and they should There is no defending this. its either its worth it for you or it isnt. it can be cheaper. proof? there is a retailer pledge. thats all you need to know. its not a scam lol. they have top notch customer service, they deliver their games, they replace parts if needed, they are always active in their discord to help with questions, they have top notch QC. you get what you pay for am i going to back this? probably not unless by the end of the campaign it just too good to pass up. currently the game is still in early development and i dont care 1 bit about the IP or how much it cost. that said, if any company can do an IP justice and take these components and meld them into a game that is engaging, challenging, and just feels good to play its CTG.
I'm one of the backers who backed but didn't look first..... The reason I purchased without looking was due to the pedigree of To Many Bones and IP that I love. And I can always back out if I dont think it has value for me.
I agree with companies charge a lot more for the "goodies", the playmats and high components. Keep the base stuff low and charge more on this kind of stuff. This way you game can reach more people (creating more hype) and you can get the business going with the extra stuff. This should be a more common practice in my option
@@TheKingofAverage yes agree. It is a very high price. Not sure if justifies (probably not and depends on your wallet) but their games have usually great components. For me is impossible with 23% VAT on top and can't justify
Thanks for the review and comments. Just what I needed on this game. I see comment that this is a short campaign, but no guide as to how many hours play we can expect. Also a bit unconvinced at this point about the replayability with the limited options. This game interests me, but on the fence at the moment and will want to see more information and gameplay to have a better idea.
Each campaign is 3 play sessions. Which they said would be about 7.5hrs (for all 3 sessions) for 2 players approx. Also that only shows you a couple of story lines out of 30 ( before stretch goals) so I recon (in my opinion only) you could get 15 ish plays before seeing repeated story lines. Then their is the expansion and hinted other expansions to come...
And that’s just campaign/story content. All of it is playable with various races, classes, and skills. So if your a one and done see all the story elements once then move on then this has a lot less replayability than if you were to try the same exact set up under completely different character/play styles and mob draws. If replayability is a concern I’d ask will I play each campaign more than one play through.
I play elder scrolls from arena (I), I love the IP, I really wanted to play a chip theory game but I won't give them 200+ for two years. I will buy it from a local eu retailer afterwards and maybe with the same money I will buy too many bones and play it tomorrow. I'm not an investor, I want to pay and get something. Is that a novel idea in the board game industry? (I'm new).
Videos like this are a bit irritating because we don't know how much the IP cost them. ITs easy to say when you aren't the one putting your butt on the line to start a company design something for years and market it. Chip Theory has their reputation for a reason. They produce High quality components arguably the best in the business. I have no problem paying for quality.
I have cancelled my pledge actually. Its fine bells and whisles, but its not worth the price...whatever sentiment i have for the pc game. I will wait 20 days to decide if I should come back
When all is said and done. Calculating the expense of to manufacture, purchase material, labor, freight shipping, printing, and to door shipping a company comes up with a expense. Usually for games they will multiply it by 5 or 3 to come up with an MSRP. There are a lot of products on the market which we buy every day which are near 7 times this number. In the end usually you try to balance your price with that of other similar products in the market. However a business doesn't have to do this. They can charge what they feel their product is worth. I can't remember how long ago I believe some one from Asmodee made a statement about price increases on board games. That luxury games should have a higher price on them because they are bigger games and are just that a luxury. That might not be exactly how it was put but I remember the debate that spurred. So be honest I look at the price and I don't think its that expensive in todays world. Also judging by the backing and how much they have raised so far I think they actually came up with a price backers are willing to pay. Am I going to back this? No. Not because of the price because it doesn't interest me. Would I pay if it did. I might because I like the idea of chips and the mats and all that they put in. Most companies would just make cardboard tokens, cardboard hexes, not put a thought into storage and most likely charge over 100 for this. Then get you on shipping for more. I often pimp up my games with storage, protecting tokens, converting tokens to something else, and doing all sorts of things so I appreciate companies that do have more upgraded components. To me I think that is what should be on most board game kickstarters. Upgraded games with more touch to the components and storage. I also like that this company chose to put the shipping into the price rather than adding it later.
Great video as always KoA! While I’m a huge fan of the IP, I’m going plan to pick this one up via retail/after market. FYI - the injection mold delivery system consists of the Sprue, Runner and Gate(s). The Gate being the vestige you are referring too as the point of polymer entry into the cavity of the mold. I love your explanations and info you are bringing to the industry. You are very much appreciated!
Great video. As a USA backer sticker shock hit real hard and I was out as soon as I realized how little was on offer. Thought I was maybe missing something so thanks for saving me a wad of cash and some storage space.
The business model from CTG is to make games with premium quality components. They come at a hefty premium cost. In my opinion it doesn't add any value in terms of fun, gameplay, enjoyment. So if you are on a budget, definitely pick something else. For example Gloomhaven and Mage Knight are way better "bang for buck" in terms of hours of gameplay per dollar spent.
LOL so if I have this right based on your video, "Chip Theory are charging this price on their game so they can make a profit!!" This video (and some of your other Kickstarter critiques) are weird because it seems to be criticizing the obvious, that Chip Theory is not running a charity and indeed is a capitalist enterprise. As customers we seem obsessed with having our cake and eating it too. Cheap games! But lots of stretch goals! I should be paid well and have great benefits! But companies I buy products from shouldn't make any money off of me but they should still pay their people well! But shipping is too expensive! But free shipping is smoke and mirrors and a scam! In a world where Holy Grail is going under, Darkest Dungeon barely made it backers, Blacklist minis were a mess, etc, I'd rather a company charge me what they need to be a successful enterprise than wonder if my game will ever show up.
The answer, quite simply, is clickbait. KoA used to be serious, but now he needs to cater to the rage baiting that he's shifted toward over the past year and a half or so.
That's a far too simplistic look at it. This is what your comment logically follows: Companies want to make profit, so you can never discuss how much they charge for things. That's just silly man. They could put it on Gamefound for $9,999 and say it's for profit and I can't make a video to discuss the purchase price? Of course we can discuss it :) Let's reverse it and say they were selling it for $90. Could I then not make a video saying how great of a deal it is? Or can I only not discuss price when it's not 100% positive? And @Thor, always a pleasure. Regardless of what I'm doing it's great to see you consistently watching. Hopefully that means you secretly find what I make helpful in some way :)
@@TheKingofAverage Not saying you shouldn't discuss it at all, just saying it's very odd to criticize a company for making a profit on a product. Mythic went out of business because they didn't charge enough. Holy Grail just went out of business leaving backers hanging. Countless other companies are coming back to backers and asking for more funds to get projects delivered. I've seen the guys from Oathsworn comment in several facebook groups that they made absolutely no money on the initial run of a game that garnered endless acclaim. If anything this campaign seems like it might be a window into what things actually need to cost if huge productions like this are going to continue to exist in board games. And yeah - newsflash - this stuff is expensive. "Is it worth it?" is a completely fair question to ask. "They are making a profit off of you!" is a very silly thing to wield as a critique, particularly when you have other videos also critiquing Kickstarters for not delivering, charging too much for shipping, etc. There simply has to be more to it than what you're projecting in these videos or the industry wouldn't be experiencing some of the crises/company collapses we've seen this past year.
One thing about the health chips, I have the weighted health chips for TMB so I’ll just use those when playing this too. I figured it’s a way to keep the price $10 lower for the CTG veterans 😅
When I saw there were no miniatures I was surprised but I was still happy with it as it seemed to have great art (unlike the Skyrim boardgame) and it wouldn't hit my wallet too badly... I was wrong. I'd be prepared to pay this price for a miniature game but not for this.
You can be sure that chips are really better in osder to play. You can see your map and you will have all your stats on the chip! And what a feeling!!!
@@crockpot5921 premium to what exactly? a bunch of dice, cards, chips and tiles that can't be used for anything else other than this game? It's just a big waste of money for me.
@@marieteach2376 if it’s anything like too many bones, which it seems like it will, there is pvc instead of paper (booklets, cards, reference sheets, etc), thick neoprene instead of cardboard, weighted chips for everything but the health chips which is an add on and plastic storage for everything (not thin inserts or crappy trays, everything has a place in a high quality plastic holder or container). The boxes are the only paper product and they are like this reinforced cardboard material. I’ve never seen another company take premium this far, no components are overlooked. To that end it is complete overkill and raises the price but you are getting a quality product. Without minis or other bulky items the box size is incredibly small compared to the game and what’s in the box.
@@marieteach2376 not to mention all the custom dice are high quality but I think that goes without saying. From what I’ve seen the neoprene map mats could be used for other games as well. It is expensive, but other than minis and map tiles most components in other games never see use in another setting this one is only missing the minis :)
I will need to reread the campaign, but I suspect the ‘stretch goals’ are essentially the rest of the game (on disc dlc?), and arguably already factored in given pretty safe projections on how well it would likely do. There is no mention of there being a ‘free expansion’ (like with TMB) for backers’, chip theory don’t do exclusives, and this would help get around having to get approvals from Zeni/Nethesda. Kinda deceptive if this is actually the case, but would leave a better gauge of value at the end, which certainly seems quite poor when looking at their ‘what’s in the box’.
I would not agree that CTG games are overpriced, but I would not argue with labelling them overproduced. You get what you pay for with CTG. TMB is one of my favorite games and the premium components contribute to that. I've not regretted the purchase. I'll will back this if I can scrape together the money.
"I can proxy..." Yep, I am done buying huge games that have me buying redundant components, with occasional exceptions. I didn't even give give Maladum a second glance. Sell me the rules, dice, and cards like Elder Scrolls: Call to Arms. Sell me just the rules like Five Leagues from the Borderlands or Mork Borg: Forbidden Psalm. I've got 2 great neoprene inch grid battlemats I play them on. I've got stunning 3d printed terrain that I add to slowly as I need to. I print miniatures and I'm soon getting an absolute ton of generic standees between Dungeon Universalis and League of Dungeoneers. I can have a premium experience without buying the same thing dozens of times, and now that I'm at that point, I'm passing campaigns by. I'm buying Marvel United because I want those specific minis, or I'd sell them and proxy some beautiful community made inch tokens. But otherwise, I'm digging deeper into games I love, especially ones with community, ones with a long tail, ones with fan-made content and years of engagement with both the game and the fans.
Maladum will be amazing. Core Space is a blast and Maladum is a more polished fantasy version. What's not to love? It's your loss if you don't want to give it a 2nd glance.. ;) Otherwise I generally agree with you, I also don't need more minis and I'm backing League of Dungeoneers. But Battle Systems just makes THAT good games and terrain.. ;)
@@1AngelAlita I would have definitely taken a look if they'd sold a version without terrain. I don't need paper terrain; I have much better. The loss of one game is offset by a lot of $10-20 games and expansions of games I love that I can buy instead, ones that have community support. I really do wish they'd done the sensible thing and sold a version without terrain or battlemat (or minis, if I'm really dreaming), because I probably would have gotten it.
Chip theory routinely says that their games would cost much more in retail. They maintain that the only reason they can sell their games at such a low price point is because they sell direct to the consumer. Too many bones has a 150 price on their store and they have always claimed in the past that it would be much more if they used normal retail routes. It sounds like you don't agree with that. What are your thoughts on that?
retail doesnt agree with that lol. a lot of their games are showing up in retail with discounts and free shipping at the normal thresholds. there is even a retailer pledge in this campaign. i have all of CTGs stuff, but there stuff is expensive. it can obviously be cheaper or there wouldnt be a retailer pledge option.
8 told my mates this was an instant back for me, all in, I said. Then I saw the base game price. 200 plus 20 percent vat. As others have said, there isn't enough content in base price for me, not enough map hexes, loot cards etc. I'm a little gutted. I can afford it but I just hate being robbed and at the moment I'm holding back to see if the content will increase to justify the cost for me. For the price the game would have to be getting played constantly for months.
Truth is, their games with chips are heavy and shipping would be pricey and it will cost more in retail/direct/later. It is a slam dunk for them. Easy money (unless gameplay is awful).
This will be worth every penny spent. Either in game play or resale value, which ever is more important to you. You compared this a lot to CMON games. This is how i see it. You can fly first class with Delta, or you can fly Frontier Air. They both get you where you are going, but one just FEELS better and you know you're more than likely going to have a better experience. Not to really besmirch CMON as i back most/a lot of their games. There is just a difference between Chip Theory and pretty much any other company. I don't feel bad paying a little more for their games. I liked how you broke everything down and explained that even after all you said, you're still a backer. I'm a backer too and i know it's expensive but damn it it's going to be worth it, whether i end up enjoying the game or not. Chip Theory has earned my trust and my money.
yes. all of them. its expensive just the same. my cloudspire box with all the expansions weighs 20ish pounds. i have all of burncycle and tmb minus the undelivered campaigns. i didnt see anything wrong with michael said
@@Mike_James The problem is that he's making an awful lot of assumptions about components and pricing seemingly based almost entirely off of looking at pictures.
@@thor5120 he is likely more accurate than fans would want to admit. there is a retailer pledge. they arent going to sell the game to them at a break even point and itll be cheaper than what we are being charged to a degree where it makes sense for a retailer to do it. im ok with CTG making money, but it is what it is. plus i figure at this point CTG has to have a good supply chain set up. they arent paying top dollar for all of their components every new game considering the amount of business they bring to the table. the components are nice, but it doesnt mean they are crazy expensive to produce.
I thought his video was spot on. It isn’t even so much the components for me (I’m sure they are nice) but rather the scant details of the content, and what type of replayability there will be. I can justify spending $200-$400 on a campaign game that I will enjoy for 60 hours or more (100+ in some cases). But with these apparently light-on-story mini campaigns, and the same final showdown every time, it is looking like the content and replayability is questionable at the moment. For $200+, I need a bit more info on that.
20 strong is the first time CTG have really tried to go for making a “cheap” game. Otherwise it’s well within the range of what you’d expect from them. Compared to the size of TMB or cloudspire, there is a lot more in these boxes than you get with their other games, so the comparable price increase id think is understandable..? I do think CTG put more effort into a lot of their games than some others though too - compared with something like marvel zombies, scenarios and enemies are always a lot more varied and in depth; it usually at least seems like they’re not just slapping a new IP sticker onto a standard mission and calling it a days worth of work. Going by what they said on stream, their first meeting with Bethesda and zenimax around the game was pre covid. Sure, they’ve had other projects going on at the same time since then, but you’re talking 2.5-3 years of development on this one? I think the labour aspect of it has to be taken into account too; could it have been done cheaper? Absolutely, but by the time they lose a slice of the pie to IP on top of other costs, how many units do you think they would have had to have sold to meet their breakeven point on the campaign?
This. Most people are looking at cost of product vs cost of what's in the box. Not accounting for the years of dev work, art time etc. Yes they probably are making like 60%+ in pure profit on these, that goes back into paying staff and covering costs of running the company. There's soooo much more on the backend that needs to be accounted for. Add to that we know zenimax are pretty scummy with gouging prices.
I'm backed for now based on IP and reputation, but mostly I'm still watching and waiting to see what makes this game special and something that clicks for me. The live stream playthrough made the game seem competent but not yet fun for me.
CTG is the best boardgame company ever. I love all their games. They will fix some things. They always present a product which is not totally finished on crowfunding (it should, by the way, be the same for every company as crowfunding is not a store!!!). And they always add things, listen to their fans. They are amazing!!!
The IP adds value (even if it's sentimental) but there's a licensing fee that they don't have when using their own IP. That could explain part of the price increase. They might also be forecasting a lot of stretch goals, so cost increase. So they have to guess what the cost will be at the end of the campaign. So yes that price is inflated but maybe not by that much. I'm also wondering about the timing of the campaign...TMB Unbreakable will start to deliver in about a month, in May. For a company that's giving free shipping, that a big expense coming up.
I actually spoke about the IP costs in the video so I assume you commented before that (which is totally fine, just means your thoughts lead to the same area I did though we come to a different conclusion) :)
You did. It would be helpful to explicitly do the math. The IP cost is *at least* 15% of gross and could be 30%. Other IP’s get 50% of gross… IP fee >= VAT or shipping costs For $230 pledge: 15% = $34.50 30% = $69 50% = $115 Apple, Google, Microsoft, Sony, and Nintendo all charge ~30% for their IP. 30% is quite likely, IMO. This is an Apple with three big bites out of it…
One other thing is there are not kickstarter exclusives that if you are late to the game you won't get unless you spend outrageous amounts. They use quality products on everything and really nothing is needed for upgrades or say like sleeves. So everything should last basically forever unless you intentionally try to destroy it. Getting cards wet or cardboard wet can basically ruin other games. Now not saying the price isn't big but with shipping and upgrades it's really not outrageous. Plus the company produces quality games
I like CTG, i own all of their game (sans burncycle) with all expansions.. I was taken aback by the amount of content you get for the money. Unless tts demo (if available) proves to be phenomenal, it's a skip for me, sadly
Neoprene quality (both print and thickness) varies a LOT between manufacturers though. I’ve gotten some absolute TRASH thin and floppy mats from other companies for $25. On the other hand, CTG neoprene is always great and thick.
@@DonSilvestre is it really? Too many bones had fine mats, but i saw some problem with print. I wonder if a cut in playmat is more expensive than mat itself
Hmmm, I get your normal views of products but I think where you missed the mark (for me) is you note the product is expensive but never compared apples to apples. In this case I am referring to Too Many Bones...this game takes the core bones of TMB (from what I can initially tell and adds IP. So how much does this product cost if we compare TMB+Shipping versus this product cost (and considering uptick for IP) this viewers likely would have interest in. Other caveat is potentially a "stretch goal" still may have a chance to add say an unexpected expansion or something though true CTG normally avoid FOMO aspects and mentions everything either way will be available to buy after the campaign. Note: Its been ages since i looked at TMB price so it would take me even a bit of research to look it up. I did check that base TMB was $130 on last campaign and this game is 195 so $65 difference when considering shipping including is still a margin but on consumer end not a crazy margin difference after sticker shock value. On my side I am still considering if I want to back or reach out to Chip Theory Games as a smaller channel to review the product. My initial thought is I may want to wait to see how many legs the game will have as I fully suspect CTG will have even more expansions and its safer to wait and confirm instead of it being a 7/10 game it realy is a top tier game. This is where i think the biggest concern is for me at least is not enough game videos with I believe one on launch day (they did note some reason why in the campaign itself). Anyhow I could probably ramble on, interesting video still I just disagree that its expensive for what it is. What i do consider many of their games are is well over produce product that comes with a luxury price that buyers have to be aware of but CTG caters to this and I am less concern about their mark up because if your correct then thats excellent for them to help stay in business given the typical awful margins the board game industry can have.
Yeaa I gave up on this scene. Tamashii will be the last game I back, and until companies learn that scamming or overpricing your customers will result in bad blood, I'm going to play with whatever I have
It is a sound philosophy. I keep thinking that I should reduce my game collection to about 25 games, instead of 100+. Probably isn't going to happen though?
It helps a lot more that the people that you want to play the games with are no more around you, that was the 1st blow couple of years ago. (They are still very much alive and well, but could care less about whether I'm alive or dead at this point.) Then it descended into almost backing grim dynasty because I love those kind of games but no one else likes. Then watching these scams unfold. I'd take a nail bat and enter their offices if I could but well.
Thanks, Michael for bringing into focus my main reason why I'm passing on this: costs. CTG is a premium game company maker and more power to them and their fans who love everything they publish but I can't justify backing this, especially cuz I'm not a CTG or TES fan, I'm not a content creator who needs to keep the finger on the pulse and I don't have $200 to burn on FOMO and honestly? I just don't think enough unique and exploration-focused gameplay is there for me. And, sadly, this also means the last chance for me to convince myself that a CTG game can lure me in. I was willing to like this, and I do to a certain degree, but for me at least the "experiment" feels too pricey. 😔
While I agree with you that the material costs will probably not be very high, there are a lot of other costs you didn’t mention, i. e. all the hours of work by many people put into this. Just for fun, let’s break down the cost of the game (a very rough estimate): Materials, printing, packing $ 40 Game development, graphics, editing, playtesting $ 40 General costs: rent, utilities, customer service etc. $ 30 IP fee $ 20 Shipping $ 50 Profit $ 15 Sum $ 195 If this is halfway right, it’s still a very good profit, though not as outrageous as you implied.
That's not how pricing of products work. You don't charge $60 for a deck of cards when everyone else charges $30 just because you spend longer making it. Awaken Realms has multiple 40-man teams of artists and devs. That doesn't mean they charge more for their game than the indie guy and his buddy that made a similar game. You charge what people are willing to pay taking into account necessity (costs, shipping, etc.) - the design is paid for by actually making the product to sell. This is why suddenly now that an IP is involved it's a $200 base pledge. People, because of the IP, are willing to pay more. It's got mostly nothing to do with any design costs IMO.
@@TheKingofAverage I disagree. By your own logic I could sell a $30 card game for $60, as soon as I make it an IP game - and find buyers for it. If Awaken Realms don't cover their real costs, they will go broke. A two people team can calculate differently and arrive at a different price. The real difference will be in edition size - a two people team might be in the black after selling 500 copies, while Awaken Realms might have to sell more than 10,000 copies to get there. People are willing to pay more for IP, that we can agree on.
Awaken realms also works on multiple titles, they have 3 projects coming up on crowd funding, if they have 45 employees equally divided into each projects it’s the same as all of chip theory working on one singular title. It’s easier for them to cover cost. I’m pretty sure if they had 45 employees all working on stalker, that games price will definitely match that.
I feel most Chip Theory games are a little over priced, some of their games were expensive day 1 of their production and haven't gone down any. I get they are using flat rate shipping, but that just means they take the highest cost to ship to whatever country/location and add that into the cost of the product, so everyone pays a bit. Do agree the IP with Elder Scrolls does seem like it's adding the normal 30% inflation that you see with most games. And just like most of the Video Game based IPs their is a lot of bloat and expecting backers to just jump right in not knowing much about the gameplay. We are too far behind on Too Many Bones and not going to spend $1000 to get it all, so was hoping this one would be a good entry point, but $230 for the base game and one expansion seems a little high compared to TMB $150 for core box and $30 for an expansion so $180.
I agree, I was so excited to get in on a CTG product having heard so much about Too Many Bones. I immediately backed as backer #544. But as you said, I backed before seeing what it includes. Now that I see, I honestly don't think it's worth more than $100 given an alleged Kickstarter discount. I keep thinking of all the other great games I could buy right now for $200 instead.
Backer 613 here, I'm still getting it because I love the video game and I've never tried chip theory before, but I do agree they are probably 50 bucks more than it should be, the upgraded chips should be free, that's the only complaint I have so far.
Are you joking? Heavy cheaps, neoprene maps, pvc cards...and ALLL what is coming. CTG games are always around 150$. Add the licence and...your expansive shipping and you get it. You should keep your pledge. CTG games are SO good. I went for a risky strategist pledge a couple years ago and i really do not regret. My best games are CTG ones!
@@IntBakske No! really not! On TMB you just have a 4x4 map....and the possibilities are invredible. This single map can last for an entire life!!! I can't imagine all what we'll e able to do with all those neoprene maps.
I've backed because of the ESO IP and the Chip Theory Games reputation. But at this pricepoint any other company would provide mini's. Just imagine the difference in immersion... With mini's this game would be a nr1 contender... Oh yeah and a bit more tiles wouldn't hurt either. I've done hundreds of delves and dungeons in the Elder Scrolls games, and what made those great is the immense variety. 16 tiles won't bring that feeling to the table. Still, I'm looking forward to CTG to blow me away on this one...
Imagine how much it would’ve cost if there were miniatures. I was on board for getting this. It was possibly going to be my last crowd funded game as I’m not buying anymore unless I see an absolute amazing one come along which I don’t expect. After seeing the cost and the gameplay I’m not really excited about the game anymore. I like the free shipping but still bit pricey. I also have the issue of 3 other unfinished campaign games on my shelves and don’t even know if or when they’ll be finished. So why buy another one? Honestly feel I’ve come to the end of my gaming enthusiasm.
Yep I will skip this. Sadly cause I#m a big elder scrolls fan and backed the skyrim boardgame before. I would love a cardboard version for a reasonable price without all the "high quality stuff" just to enjoy the campaign story.
You can get away with bloating a game with miniatures for a premium price because you can use the miniatures elsewhere, however bloating it with premium chips, dice and pop-out mats which you can only use with this game is asking a lot.
About VAT Shipping has to be VATed ;) Only the shipping to border but the only CF campain i know making this a differend is the battletech kickstarter live at the moment
true but at least they offer to pay in installments then it is only about 12- 19 $ per month for 10 months depending on a version ... that is affordable
The variety is the only thing putting me down in this one. It seems too little gear and items for what we are paying, a few runs of the game and you will have seen almost all content. I will probably still back because shipping is free and I live in Brazil, so not only the price would increase later but the added shipping could potentially double the total price
Your IP cost is interesting. If you look at the cost of Lego (home grown theme) vs Lego (Star Wars or Disney theme) you will see a pretty big premium for the SW Lego sets. Does it stop the crowd from buying SW Lego...well maybe a bit. Maybe some just buy a few sets they really like instead of all of them. I buy a few other themes beyond SW Lego like Modular construction, Botanical, Ideas, etc. and I can say I certainly do get a lot more pieces for the same price as SW Lego. Not only that but after buying many SW Lego over the years my grey piece quantity is off the freaking charts and the non SW Lego sets give me a much wider color variety.. I digress a bit away from the board game space but I hope its been at least a little illuminating.
I watch a lot of UA-camrs that cover the games I like but I can honestly say that I feel you are the only one who is 💯 truthful. I appreciate that. There is no worse feeling then spending your hard fought for money on a game that is just disappointing. I'm a huge Fallout fan and after watching a bunch of videos I was close to buying the board game by Fantasy Flight until I watched your video on it. I knew something was off when they stopped supporting it so soon but it seemed like no one wanted to be brutally honest about it. I get it tho, they don't want to bash it and not have the companies not send them new games to review but with that said I feel they aren't being honest with their viewers at the same time. You do a great job of breaking down all the pros and cons of the games you cover. Keep up the amazing work it is much needed and appreciated.
Just to touch on poker chips. First of all ABS weighted chips are NOT casino weight. They're roughly 4g heavier on average. Actual casino chips come in a couple flavours, you have premium plastic injection moulding (abbiati/matsui/sun-fly/Bud Jones) are pretty expensive for their security features. Then you have clays. Clays are EXPENSIVE to manufacture. Each chip starts as a blank, has whatever spot pattern cut and the other colours placed in before it is stamped in a mould. It is very labour intensive. Mould masters cost $50,000+ (source: Classic Poker Chips owner when talking about losing their roman mould master). Let's just be glad we're not talking about clay chip prices ($2+ a chip)
Me too! Sadly I feel that $200 for the core game turned many away. 21,000+ grabbed their Too Many Bones expansion but Elder Scrolls gets a bit over 6k. That price turned a lot of people off and that's money left out. More at a lower margin is not as good as fewer at a higher margin IMO.
I enjoy watching your channel. I understand you like to call out unfair and unjust business practices - which is great, kudos to that. But here you are explaining manufacturing costs, which as pointed out by some other comments isn’t accurate to begin with. Most importantly this is a small portion of running a business. Designers, staff, office, equipment investment and depreciation costs, and also planning enough to expand the business to do more and larger projects. They are a business afterall and the majority of players are happy with their products and justify the cost to acquire them. As many have pointed out, they rather have a polished product…
The numbers I give area directly from other developers. As for staff, office, etc. That's not taken into account when pricing an object for sale. If it took you 3 years instead of 1 to design a deck of cards you don't sell it for double what the other guys do. If you do, it's not for design time. All of that other stuff is used to help make the object you sold more appealing so you sell more, not so you charge more. You charge what the market can sustain and what people are willing to spend on it. And they are free to charge $200. I just know it cost them a lot of backers and in the end, less money made overall.
Ah I understand what your point is now. Yes, you are correct, that the product they release needs to be within the market value of the product and not sole based on how long it took them to make or design. The range is based on justification of the buyers. Your example of Apple is excellent. It points out that people are willing to pay a premium for CTG products, just like Apple products. This is the cost to maintain customer service, branding, polished products with rounds of QC and game testing. A product that is half the quality (for oversimplification sake, say half the thickness of the cards) does not cost half the price. It’s is exponentially more expensive to product high quality products. Your video focuses on manufacturing costs and how this game is overpriced. Where if order to make that comment you should have factor in the justification costs that buyers are willing to pay as per some points mentioned in this comment section. You also oversimplify the IP process. If you made a boardgame with a famous IP, and/or run a campaign of your own then many of these points will come to light. So, here we have a company with a good product, that is consistently producing happy customers who are happy to pay a premium for a peace of mind. Shouldn’t this be within the range of a justified valued product?
@@TheKingofAverage Making less money overall is better than going out of business. You must take into account all your expenses when putting a product up for sale or you won't be in business long. The market dictates what someone is willing to pay for an item. Chip theory games is able to sell there items for more because they provide premium products and great customer services. If you want an example of people doing it wrong then just look at all the producers you love to post about that are going under. They obviously do not know how to run a buisness. Same goes for the ones that are funding games to pay for old projects. Its just a matter of time.
Thank you and you are able to articulate what I’m trying to say much more clearly. If companies didn’t factor in office space, staff etc. such as the operating expenses to price their products, then that is when companies fail. Cash flow would be negative and they wouldn’t be able to survive in the long run.
Interesting vid, but I don't understand why you didn't compare to Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim the Adventure Game. I don't understand why this Elder Scrolls is over $2 million already when Skyrim's campaign made $1.5 million total. I don't understand why this is more money when Skyrim is basically the same IP and has miniatures. (Skyrim seems to have sold for around $130 for the core game and $300 with expansions). I don't understand why people like this better when the artwork looks like generic fantasy and the Skyrim game looks like actual Bethesda quality imagery. Skyrim's cards even include equipment items where the images seem very similar to the PC/video game. 200 equipment cards alone, BTW. There seem to be TONS of cards and tokens in that one. Any ideas?
Skyrim Adventure game's minis looked awful, their art looked like cheap unimaginative paint over screen shots, and Modiphius has an absolutely atrocious crowdfunding track record. CTG has a bulletproof reputation for great campaigns, customer service, and if you like the type of thing they do, they really haven't had a bad miss yet (burncycle's divisive and not for me but I see lots of people who love it as well).
I'm okay with how CGT has been handling this campaign. Compared to the Elder Scrolls game from a year or two ago, this just comes off as more appealing. I think realistically, this would be a heavy game to ship, so even though the all-in gameplay bundle is $230, I still consider $30 of that almost being attributed to shipping, if not more. This year, I've been also going for more quality over quantity. I think last year, I backed close to 10 games. This year, I haven't backed a single one. I'm more okay with backing this game because I see where the effort has been put into it and see the potential from the gameplay footage I've seen so far.
It is expensive (here in Italy VAT is 22%) but I'd rather spend money knowing the company will deliver, backed batman escape from arkham asylum later this year and don't know if I'll ever get the game
My wallet is genuinely happy this game doesn't interest me. I was all set to go all in until it launched, and for whatever reason it didn't mesh with my brain. Happy other people are excited for it tho!
Thanks for this video. After much thought, this will be only the 2nd CTG offering that I don’t back. It’s not entirely a matter of affordability for me, but the price seems frivolous considering the cost of food, electricity, and other things these days. I backed 2d6 Dungeon and the HexploreIt 2nd campaign book instead and am still over $100 under what this one game would cost. Now the question is, do I take that savings and put it towards the Battletech campaign?! 😂
On the CMON Dune thing. I can only speak for myself but I backed less for the IP (although it helps) and more for the fact it was the War of the Ring designers.
I've bought cheaper games with hundreds of minis that were equally as good if not better than this one and I could use those minis in other games. There is no reason to upscale everything to neoprene or expensive materials for a bunch of glorified cardboard pop-outs that will only ever be used for one game, this is ridiculously overpriced for what it is.
I don't own a CTG game, but have looked really good to me--I appreciate the douse of cold water on my hype. I wonder where KoA gets his info on how much all these items cost.
It’s not all about manufacturing costs. You’re also paying for development, playtesting, great customer service, etc. the overall experience of interacting with a Chip Theory game is hands down better than with any other companies game on the market. If I could only buy games from one Company, CTG would be the one. Every part of my experience with their games, their campaigns, and their customer support has been nothing but positive.
CTG makes premiums products that last. Their games are beyond durable and will stand the test of time. I'll happily pay for their products and support them. Their customer service is amazing and they are all good people who actually love what they do and don't cater to the BS FOMO like CMON does. Now, I live CMON games, hate that 90% of the crap they release on KS is exclusive. Plus CTG shipping is cheap for how heavy this stuff is and they do flat rate $15 from their store. If you want a basic breakdown I'd suggest reaching out to Josh/Ghillie before making whatever assumptions/research you did. He would probably be more than happy to talk about cost cause he has in many videos already. Companys are in business to make money period, they have salaries and bills to pay.
I've been in well over 500 campaigns and this is the first one that charged me New Jersey tax to the tune of nearly $27. What's up with that? Just another reason I hate fn Jersey.
I'm curious how they do the math under the hood there. I was charged 7.4% sales tax on the all-in pledge, which is $29.60. State tax here in GA is 4% and my county is 8%. I trust the Gamefound backend about as far as I can throw it, so I can't help but raise an eyebrow.
Yeah I assume they calculated the average per county per state, maybe weighted by population or something. I'm not clear on if we'll pay the difference/get credit when we get more specific in the pm.
DEspite the price, I prefer this over any IP game made by Steamforge. If you compare those games gameplay and how much we get (and how little of Elden Ring SFG put into game to sell tons of expansions) the choice is simple and obvious. Not a fan of those practices, but it;s still lesser evil for me.
multiple stretch goals of 1 item card for increase of $50k is just sad. This is a big amount and I think that backers should receive more than one lonely small piece of paper
Since you are new to Chip Theory games, you may not realize that all of their cards are PVC. This even includes the large cards like Rule sheets and player aids.
You never need card sleeves with Chip Theory games.
Too Many Bones and Cloudspire are both around $150. This game has as many dice as Too Many Bones, as much Neoprene as Cloudspire, as much Chips as either game and many more cards.
I am also sure that the IP license is adding cost to the game. I don't have an issue with them making a profit.
This!
Also the chips are weighted which took seconds to research and has a two part with an insert which makes them more expensive to make... Just lazy for these types of videos. Jus a bit of research before making the video.
@@Ocqlarity Ek stem saam! Kak hom uit.
@@Ocqlarity Kak hom uit.
I think it will be interesting to see how KOA reviews the product once it is delivered. I do wish all the paper components like cards, player aids etc in other board games were made the same as a CTG game.
EDIT: This game is also a shift to the type of games KOA normally backs. It would be similar if he investigated historical GMT or Compass games wargames and the cost of those.
Long post incoming... disclaimer: I am not a native english speaker ;)
Hey KoA, I usually enjoy watching your videos, but I feel like you're overlooking some things here and are not 100% on point this time. I may be wrong aswell, just thought I'd drop my 2 cents anyways as constructive criticism and ideally to come out smarter after writing that comment.
So, I want to start with the first point you're making: The spreading out of the material as to make things seem more where they aren't. I truly believe this is not the case here, as a) you get an overview prior to the detailed version of what is in the box and b) everything included (or likely included as the game is not 100% finished as mentioned in the livestream they did) is transparently shown in each category, which I honestly enjoy more than a cluttered picture of everything where you'd have to guess what is what. I think the critique you're making may be true for other campaigns more than it is here.
The second, big thing you're talking about and the question if this all is worth $200 is also not even remotely fair in my opinion and you leave out key things that definitely need to be priced into that game.
First of all - no, what we see on the campaign is not worth $200 and it is not supposed to be worth that much. It is what you, as a customer are paying AFTER all is done. And that does not only include the cost of material and/or shipping, that includes paying staff to create the game, paying artists to design the game, potentially paying for housing where all that takes place, likely paying for the IP itself, paying for marketing and then paying for the production of the game.
They said they have been working on this project for 2 years now and are likely working on it for another year, just imagine the salaries paid if you put like 3 people 9 to 5ing on it.
And after all is said and done, they of course also want to make a profit with that game where I believe it is way smaller than what you suggest it will be.
I agree with your last point of the "extras" though, they are coming with a hefty margin and I do believe this is also the main driver for a bigger profit.
So yeah, maybe I overestimate costs here, I can't be sure, but looking at everything it actually feels like a fair price to me, especially considering the time that already went into that campaign and the hours of work that go into a game like that. Nonetheless, I think it's fair to say it is too much for one individually and not back it, after all I believe in CTG delivering a great experience well worth the money.
I would rather back an expensive game from a company that has a successful business model and knows their margins to keep the lights on. Too many companies are pricing games with too thin of margins and can’t sustain solvency.
Agreed
Of course!!!
I would rather back good game instead of unkown bloat with lots of "expensive" components
That being said, after VAT and import costs well over 200 euros for a game is very steep. I got Oathsworn at SPIEL for 180 and that's a massive game. This is in the same price range as Frosthaven. And if you compare those this'll lose big time as far as content goes.
But, still backed ofcourse as I'm a sucker for these games and it'll hit my table frequently, no problem 😊
„Too many companies“ is going to be their next game title. 😊
In my opinion, most funds are required to pay multiple full time employees for two or three years. Then there are two options: sell it with high price and stay in business or do it the Mythic way.
In addition, in the past I had some insight in IP related contracts (not boardgame related, but I think the differences should be minor). IP costs can be huge and we should not underestimate them.
IP costs are supposed to LOWER prices bcause developers can rely on the higher volume that comes with the IP. That's more or less the whole point to popular IPS.
@@jamesdavid7782 end stage of production yes the IP moves product. However the upfront entering into the contract, having to approve all art and designs, having to run all lore past Bethesda and adding all of that to the dev time. This is 3 years of work that has to be back payed essentially.
You always pay VAT over shipping, wether it's up front or later if they charge shipping in the pm. At least that's the case for me in the Netherlands. So I really like that shipping is included.
Crowdfunding in general is so expensive though (in Europe) that I doubt you ever really get it cheaper than in retail. You back it because of the exclusives and uncertain availability later.
same for UK. VAT is also charged on shipping.
Whilst that may feel punitive, I believe that arose from companies in the past increasing shipping costs to decrease price (and hence reduce VAT).
Very much disagree. Gloomhaven, Frosthaven and Oathsworn were dead cheap at original launch. I also got 3 Aeon's End games very cheap compared to retail prices. I always estimate the hours of gameplay we can get out of a game and for boardgames it's usually around max 2$ per hour when it's good value.
😮😅😅😮😮😮😮😅😮😮😮😅😮😮van 😅😮😮😮😮9u30 😮😮😅
It depends on the print run. Oathsworn 2nd and Isofarian Guard, both not available in retail here in Germany, were scandalously cheap in their first run but the second printings saw a big increase in overall price. I am sure they went too cheap at first and now equal the real costs (at least to my next to zero knowledge of material costs...) but I missed the first print on both games and the second print runs certainly had the sticker shock moment for me.
I’m actually genuinely surprised with all the hate towards the price. With all chip theory games we are to expect high prices. But, that said, I think you’re really underestimating the quality. Those cards aren’t card stock but pvc. The rulebooks are freaking plastic. The neoprene is stitched, beautiful, and thick. Not all neoprene is built the same. CTG always goes to the extreme. That said, all their games are soooo expensive. Too many bones base box isn’t much cheaper and yet this seems to have way more content. I don’t think you can count the number of hours of content in this box. And that content, from experiencing their previous games, is most likely to be fun, unique, and incredibly interesting. With so many builds and quests, I’d expect to play this game for hours and hours. But, that said, it is expensive. It took me a long time to dip my toes into too many bones. But I don’t regret it. Even if I don’t have that much content for it, I love what I have. Ppl comparing this to $400 worth of minis in other games they’ll play twice seems silly. This is a game that will get played time and time again in many collections. But I wouldn’t blame anyone for walking away from this unwilling to take a $200 chance on an unknown. That’s a ton of money. But many backers have tried CTG and they’re back for more.
I agree with everything you said minus a couple of things. I am not sure your getting the exact price of the chips for the game. Yes standard plastic Poker Chips are cheap, however once you up the type and quality they can get really expensive. Even more so then mini's. My friend plays card games, and goes to those cash Poker type game, and he has a set of 500 Pure Clay 10 Gram Poker Chips that cost him 220$. He said a price of 50 would be around 35$, that's around 4$ a chip. He said the chips in Chips theory games are equivalent to his Pure Clay Chips. So the 40$ pack of 65 Premium health chips is actually a good deal following that pricing. I would also argue them putting crap plastic chips in the base game is the same thing that many do with dice, they give you crap dice, and then offer better dice as an add on.
The other thing I would argue is the Neoprene mat, is 35" by 42" which is just a little bit smaller then their Burn cycle mat which was 35" by 44". Both are the same price. Let me just tell you based on the size of the Burn Cycle mat, the mat is massive and is one of the biggest mats I own. The only other mat that is quite large like that is the one in Western Legends 47" by 25" which was 35$, but its half as thick, non-stitched and non-double sided. So I think the 60$ price tag is accurate for what you getting on the mat. Do you really need it, no not at all. But I feel like the quality is their to warrant the price.
oh I didn't realize the mat was so big, that's actually pretty decent. It's still cheap to make, but that's more akin to normal prices then, or at least not hugely outlandish.
As for the clay chips, they aren't clay though right? They are plastic? I'll know once they deliver, but I looked up weighted poker chips (which I assume are made the same way) and they were still around $10 for a nice set of them in a wooden box.
Your friend might pay $200+ for specialty stuff, but that doesn't make it priced as fairly as alternatives. Once you get to that "premium" zone the pricing changes wildly, like business prices for travel.
That and this game is not in a vacuum. We have their other offerings to compare to. Their recent Victorum was $95 and has a ton of those chips.
It's no coincidence that they have a new record for how much to charge on their big IP offering.
@@TheKingofAverage Yeah but Victorum released at $150 on their site due to inflation and scope creep by the time it released.
I feel the price is expected. Right now in Australia Too Many Bones is $230 aud + Shipping ($10-15 depending on the store) TMB expansions are $55 + Shipping. Elder scrolls is ~$300 aud base which considering licensing and "free" shipping that's an expected increase. The expansion is a good deal, being almost the same price as a TMB expansion + "free" shipping when getting the gameplay all in.
Gameology has TMB listed for $300 as it is. This sticker price really was not unexpected for ctg fans.
This depends though, for backers in the US this might be expensive. But for us in South East Asia which usually have to pay 60-100$ USD shipping then it's actually pretty cheap. The shipping for Isofarian Guard to my country is 200$ so, this game is actually free for me, I just need to pay for shipping :)
This! The recent Heroes of the Pacific had shipping for 90 euros… basically doubled the cost of the game for me…
@@Talonnz1 yeah, shipping can get really crazy for big heavy game
I'm sure we owe a good portion of that price to Zenimax. Also, I love the fact that I can get free shipping and be confident that I won't get asked for money later, amd that Chip Theory will likely not close down any time soon
Yeaaa.. well free shipping is somehow relative you know.. it'll be woven in the current price somehow
@@IntBakske Oh, I'm sure I'm paying for shipping for myself and others on this one
You realize the all in is cheaper than many big box games that have sold gang busters. Factor in shipping being free (this game will be HEAVY) and this is cheaper than games like Oathsworn for example. But no one lost their minds over the price of those.
Additionally find me a big box campaign core game these days less than $125. Add shipping to that and is this core box really much more expensive?
@@dougsaus7837 yes it is still expensive lol
CTG has never let me down. I've never received one of their games and thought, "I spent too much money on this."
Triplock says hi.
@@jamesdavid7782 absolutely!
I think when you get it, you'll feel it's worth it. Not from a gameplay perspective, but from the components. It's not just CTG's reputation for quality, it's the *actual* quality. It's having all the cards be plastic (so you don't have to sleeve, if you do) - it's about them being good quality chips and neoprene. Yes, they can be done cheaper - but these won't be. CTG's games are the only "premium" games I've ever properly felt that from. Despite all the posturing, outside of the minis, you can see the corners that were cut in a KDM box. Their games really feel like high quality in a way no others have matched. Yes, it's a bit like how with an Apple phone you open it and get that nice feeling that yes, you've bought something valuable and it's presented really well... but unlike an Apple phone, you get to revisit that feeling every time you open it up and play it.
In terms of the two specific things you mentioned: playmats - CTG avoided playmats for a long time, with the argument that "everything is already neoprene, why do you want more?" - and it's a good argument and is also why their playmats don't actually sell as well as others. If you've already got a generic neoprene mat for your gaming table they really don't add much. They're not replacing a board. The mat they're selling is pretty big also and doesn't compare that badly to 3ftx3ft stitched wargaming mats on price.
The health chips - pretty much every CTG game uses the "unit chip on top of health chips to track health" - and while the premium health chips are great, you only really need one set for all their games (or like you say, can just buy a pack of poker chips) - I've actually seen them on social media encourage people to do this in the past. Your Cloudspire or Too Many Bones premium health chips will be just fine for this. So I don't think it's quite as cynical as you think. (Now, when they did this when TMB first came out, it may have been a bit cynical, for sure.)
This was a great video that had me thinking for days. After mulling it over though, I realized while the profit margins must be there for this to work, there has to be a pretty dramatic difference between this and the standard methods we usually see for us to have seen zero copy-cats after years of CTG proving successful following this model.
I don’t see a point if good Games, honest Campaigns and Consumer Friendly Companies, make Money. It’s their purpose. I like your Comparison with Apple, they are expensive too, but deliver Quality. And Apple also was setting Standards for other cheaper Mobile Companies. If CTG will do so in Future for boardgames, i am fine with it.
What you didn’t mention, they are not using Fomo, in their Campaigns, which is a huge plus for me, and a standard I would like to see in the future for other Companies. I am free to decide, if I want to lent them Money now, to grow their Company or if don’t want to. I will be able to buy the exact same Game with all Components in the future, just purchase it later, maybe a few month after delivery, for just a bit increase in price, maybe 20%. Or even cheaper or same price on secondary market, cause their Quality Components are so top notch, it’s like buying an refurbished iPhone, you wont feel or see the difference.
Ehhhhhh let's not talk about apple setting standards lmao. That ended loooong ago. They're playing catch up to android by like 4 years at this point. Like yes their hardware is premium and their software infrastructure is user friendly. But it is undoubtedly behind and nowhere near as customisable.
Many people in the comments are pointing out interesting points and good feedback. I’d like to add other considerations that go into research and development, paying employee salaries, and the marketing production. While the manufacturing portion may appear inflated on the surface, I’m curious about how the overall price seems when you take those other factors, not discussed in this video into account. (You did mention shipping being baked in as well)
I was going to say the same thing. Lots of other cost to consider.
Incidentally you never charge for something like "design" time. The idea is that the design produces the product that ends up paying for the design. But you don't charge $50 for a deck of cards just because it took you longer to design them than the other companies selling them for $30. That's not how pricing works with products.
Like all things in real life, it's more complex than you can possibly talk about briefly of course. When my first job out of college with working on HP printers my father asked how they could possibly need so many people just to make a printer. No one ever realizes all the various stuff that goes into something complex, and board games are certainly complex, touching many different manufacturing industries and then deliver? Ooof!
That isn't true. You should be trying to recover all sunk costs such as design, art, graphics, etc. Or you are losing money.
If it was just about a singular game and not a company with employees and contractors for art and other services, then I would agree with not factoring in things like “design” time. But, like you said, things get much more complex when you start factoring in all of those intangible things outside of components. Like Thomas said, a business has to have some way of recouping their design and development costs and still turn a profit as a company.
Side note: Thanks for doing a video analyzing board game material cost. I’d actually like to see a video segment where you possibly go over some of those other details that could factor into the cost of a game. Maybe you could manage an interview with one of the developers to go over things they need to consider. I’m sure they can’t share hard numbers of things like employee salaries, but it would be nice to know what considerations they have to make when deciding on what “MSRP” should be for a product they are trying to deliver.
@@TheKingofAverage isn't it? Isn't that a huge part of the Kingdom Death (and Games Workshop) business model? These are "premium" miniatures with loads of effort put into the design, so we charge a lot more?
I'll acknowledge it's *rare* for this to happen in the board game industry at least but it does happen. The entire fashion industry lives off it too.
Higher end poker chips can be around $0.50 but at these quantities they should at most be .25 a chip, the base game has 79 chips so max cost is probably $19.75 on the chips
Makes sense then. +plastic cards, neoprene, dice. Multiply all that combined by 5 and I think that’s a general rule of thumb for MSRP.
@@Boardgametherapist That's the rule of thumb for games that go through retail distribution where the distributor and the store get their cut. They don't exist for KS and direct to customer games so there should be less of a markup.
I backed at the $230 level and I am backer #550, the one thing I did was the stretch pay system which is a brilliant thing for people who can't justify spending that amount or can't afford a big lump sum I have said about this before, it is a nice feature on Gamefound and I think it would be nice for Kickstarter to adopt this approach, I am looking forward to this as I am a massive fan of Oblivion and Skyrim but also I am a consistent player on Elder Scrolls Online, thanks for pointing out some things in this video, looking forward to seeing your unboxing video, thanks KoA :D
Yup, would not of backed without stretchpay. It would $380 upfront for me vs $38 a month. No brainer.
Ah... the warm feeling of spending money you don't have... 😂
The game will be amazing and will be worth it for me i’m sure. Plus i’m happy it’s not a big campaign game you never finish but a more manageable and replayable one. Every stretch goal unlocked add to that replayability directly. Sometimes quality over quantity is better. I think this is the case with this one. Especially with the quality of material and ease to set-up and tear down.
I’ve never played a CTG game, so I thought, with the IP, this would be the one for me to take the plunge. But after looking at the price, I’m not so sure. I’m not afraid to spend money on some big games (I’ve got KDM, AT:O, etc) but what I would be getting with this one seems really small in comparison. Also the “campaign” component of this game seems really weak and I have serious questions about replayability. (I’m curious what your thoughts are on that aspect.). When I consider what to spend $200 on for crowdfunding this month, Townsfolk Tussle is looking like a better value.
That is my concern also - replayability. I don’t like how there are no rules or clear component list. The game has an act 1-3 structure. Where acts 1,2 are different regions and different quests. Act 3 seems to be fighting the same boss, always? Not sure on this point, asked the question of CTG with no answer as yet. So for me I’m interested, but definitely have some questions.
Honestly backed Dungeon Universalis, that game seems to have much more content for a similar price.
Yes, the Act 1 and 2 always leading to the same showdown is particularly worrisome. And how much variation are we actually going to have in the Act 1&2 quests? They have talked about different permutations of guilds and regions, but if it is light on story (and it seems very light on story) what is the real difference?
Yes, I don’t want to pay $200 for a one or two shot game. I also don’t like the very limited and generic maps. I think maybe a dollar pledge on this one and wait and see what emerges in reviews.
I wonder sometimes if we do a disservice to ourselves by assessing value of a game by the number of components or possible hours of entertainment for the price it has rather than the enjoyment it provides, the tightness of the experience or the depth of the decisions.
As a backer who is willing to overlook a lot for the high price, I am a little amazed and annoyed by the very low number of cards.... Feels like a very cheap/easy way to increase variety
i am out at this price. ;-)
And for the EU VAT topic: Here in germany it's 19% on top, even on shipping. If a "kickstarter" charge e. g. 20 für shipping its ~ 24 in real here. But 195 real dollar, (not the "fake" canadian dollar ;-) even if shipping is included, is too much.
I really don’t get the VAT Discussion around crowdfunding, living in Germany too. Don’t you understand you pay VAT all the time, repairing your car, buying on Amazon, buying Food, going to a cinema? Only because it wasn’t collected in previous years on international crowdfunding, doesn’t mean it’s such a big thing to discuss, don’t you think? Also don’t you see collecting VAT and taxes, for the State, is for your own benefit. Free schools, support students, supporting poor people and refugees, building and repairing infrastructure, not having so much homeless people, so much crime, because of supporting more equality. I know nothing is perfect over here, we could do more, the state could vaste less and investing more wisely into the future and into next generations, I know. And it’s certainly true, VAT and taxes could be collected more from rich, than from normal people sure. But always complaining about paying VAT, only seeing the negative in it, I truly can’t stand it. It’s a deluxified Hobby, nothing necessary, and we are able to pay deluxe VAT and Taxes for it, for the greater benefit of our society. Don’t you think?
We are talking about it because it's not 200$ but 250$ for single boardgame with very little stuff inside. For 250$ you can buy like 4-5 games with same amount if not more content. I think lot of people were looking forward to back this game becase of the ip and than saw the price tag and were understandably disappointed.
Did you get any add-ons? If so what did you spring for?
no way am I paying over $230 for this so gameplay all in only.
For me, it was the exact opposite. I saw the Elder Scrolls game advertisement, and passed over it several times until I saw that Chip Theory was the game publisher. Chip Theory games are some of my favorite for many reasons.
No mention of the $400 All-in?
Not about the money for me, it’s the fact that I feel this is so similar to other games. Does this really bring anything to the table that Descent, oathsworn, league of dungeoneers, or even Gloomhaven doesn’t bring?
If I didn’t own any campaign style dungeon crawls and was a big fan of ES then this would be enticing, but personally it’s too similar to other unplayed dungeon crawls that I already own..
That being said, I still want it
CTG have regularly stated that margins are pretty tight on their core box games and the majority profit lies in the expansion content.
This is the reason they have given that discounts on crowd funding are usually very small.
The ~11g chips are heavy because they are not just plastic they have a metal core for weight and it's why the Brass mags in Burncycle stick to them. So the weighted chips are not just higher density plastic single efforts. My quick calculation is they charge about 0.50 per metal weighted chip.
AFAIK printed Neoprene is relatively expensive.. if it was really cheap then other companies would be using it more regularly.
Ultimately CTG make expensive relatively "luxury" games and wrt crowd funding they don't participate in FOMO so i your not up for backing you can always buy from their store later so not comparable to say CMON with all the FOMO huge margin exclusive add-on content.
AFAIK development has also been extended (higher costs) as the IP owner want oversight of everything...so it's not just paying the IP cost i would guess?
Ultimately you backed it before the page updated with the box content .. :)
Great info thank you! Always interested in learning stuff like how they are made. You can buy weighted poker chips aplenty on the cheap. A box of them for $10 and such and that includes the all wooden box for storage. I assume it's standard weighting tech. Funny it's also just sticking metal in it like our electronics :D
Agreed on the luxury, and I wish I had thought of saying that word when describing that very thing long winded. Also a confident back. You know you'll get the game, you know it'll be quality. But you do end up paying for that confidence and luxury. Many of us are happy to do so too!
If this game has tight margins than another boardgames must be deep in the red.
@@alescervinka7501 Right, like the numerous high end game companies that are going out of business (Holy Grail, Mythic, Highborne, Blacklist, etc). Board game companies ARE deep in the red in many cases. People have misconceptions about what their fancy toys cost, especially with post-covid inflation. Considering the shipping's covered and the amount of content in the box, this game seems completely reasonable to me. Oathsworn and Frosthaven are both a lot more + have shipping on top and the Oathsworn team have talked at length about not really making ANY profit on the first go around.
What about the lack of reviews of this game? Lack of gameplay videos? (I only know of 2 and they both suck.) What about those gameplay videos not having good prototype components? Even you said the page wasn't ready when the campaign started. The thing you get for this IP are maps and iconography. No thanks. Won't back it because I'm burnt out on getting these expensive games that have horrible or even just dull gameplay.
Because the game isn't fully developed yet.
Yeah I know with a lot of modern companies they just use KS as a store front for a finished product (so no money loans /interest to pay back on) but CTG don't.
CTG tend to come very early to KS and take a bit more feedback from backers so the backing process covers a fair the development cycle not just the manufacturing and shipping costs.
@@RocketMagnetUK That's my point. It isn't fully developed yet. You don't know what game you are buying. All you know is it's like Too Many Bones with an ESO skin.
@@timf7354 Yeah agreed, however CTG always come early in the development cycle.
A large number of modern companies don't need CF they just use it as a pre-order system for a free loan (no investors to pay back). Still both the company and backers can benefit as there is no middleman investment money to pay).
Personally I'd argue CTG are behaving more in the spirit of what Crowd Funding is fundamentally than most other companies.
As for Reskins.. unfortunately this is the modern world as new stuff is too risky (see Burncycle CTGs last totally new game/IP struggled so hence this is the result IMO).. so companies say .. hey our new game is like this thing you already like and its based on this IP... hence it sells. Just look at CMON they've been releasing the same fundamental game for years with a new skin and some tweaks and they do gang busters.
Same arguments have been made over all the recent CTG campaigns but thats just how they do it.. and very clearly say .. hey if your not sure wait for the final game and buy it from our store later as it's not CF exclusive.
the comments are kind of all over the place. Fans defending, people hating. its silly.
The game is expensive. make no mistake. is it worth it? for each to decide. are they making money? of course they are, and they should
There is no defending this. its either its worth it for you or it isnt. it can be cheaper. proof? there is a retailer pledge. thats all you need to know.
its not a scam lol. they have top notch customer service, they deliver their games, they replace parts if needed, they are always active in their discord to help with questions, they have top notch QC. you get what you pay for
am i going to back this? probably not unless by the end of the campaign it just too good to pass up. currently the game is still in early development and i dont care 1 bit about the IP or how much it cost. that said, if any company can do an IP justice and take these components and meld them into a game that is engaging, challenging, and just feels good to play its CTG.
I wonder if you ended up backing? The pm closes in September
I'm one of the backers who backed but didn't look first..... The reason I purchased without looking was due to the pedigree of To Many Bones and IP that I love. And I can always back out if I dont think it has value for me.
I agree with companies charge a lot more for the "goodies", the playmats and high components. Keep the base stuff low and charge more on this kind of stuff. This way you game can reach more people (creating more hype) and you can get the business going with the extra stuff. This should be a more common practice in my option
oh agreed, it'll never be as good of a deal when an add-on - it's got to pay for the added sku as well!
But this is $195 base already :D
@@TheKingofAverage yes agree. It is a very high price. Not sure if justifies (probably not and depends on your wallet) but their games have usually great components. For me is impossible with 23% VAT on top and can't justify
Remembering last zombicide where shipping was nearly more than the price tag.....
Thanks for the review and comments. Just what I needed on this game. I see comment that this is a short campaign, but no guide as to how many hours play we can expect. Also a bit unconvinced at this point about the replayability with the limited options. This game interests me, but on the fence at the moment and will want to see more information and gameplay to have a better idea.
Each campaign is 3 play sessions. Which they said would be about 7.5hrs (for all 3 sessions) for 2 players approx.
Also that only shows you a couple of story lines out of 30 ( before stretch goals) so I recon (in my opinion only) you could get 15 ish plays before seeing repeated story lines. Then their is the expansion and hinted other expansions to come...
And that’s just campaign/story content. All of it is playable with various races, classes, and skills. So if your a one and done see all the story elements once then move on then this has a lot less replayability than if you were to try the same exact set up under completely different character/play styles and mob draws. If replayability is a concern I’d ask will I play each campaign more than one play through.
The last ks I backed was Tanaris. That one was also expensive. A lot of games are getting too expensive now. Sad but true. Shipping and VAT....
Tanares gave an absurd amount of content, though
@@edwardleronculbreath732 indeed absurd. I really regret backing this and going all-in.
@@911Gargoyle Not having fun with it?
@@edwardleronculbreath732 can't say yet. I only have the Tanaris core box at the moment. But 15 boxes in total....I don't know what I was thinking
Right there with you, but I hear nothing but praise. You can find advice out there for condensing it into way fewer boxes
I play elder scrolls from arena (I), I love the IP, I really wanted to play a chip theory game but I won't give them 200+ for two years.
I will buy it from a local eu retailer afterwards and maybe with the same money I will buy too many bones and play it tomorrow.
I'm not an investor, I want to pay and get something. Is that a novel idea in the board game industry? (I'm new).
Videos like this are a bit irritating because we don't know how much the IP cost them. ITs easy to say when you aren't the one putting your butt on the line to start a company design something for years and market it. Chip Theory has their reputation for a reason. They produce High quality components arguably the best in the business. I have no problem paying for quality.
$260 CAD for just the base game is insanity to me. There's no way I'd play the game enough to justify that price
After i spent $450 cdn on Wild Assent for so much more, i couldn’t do something like this.
I have cancelled my pledge actually. Its fine bells and whisles, but its not worth the price...whatever sentiment i have for the pc game. I will wait 20 days to decide if I should come back
Totally new game, not like zombicide, different models, same game! No shipping cost! Top company ❤
When all is said and done. Calculating the expense of to manufacture, purchase material, labor, freight shipping, printing, and to door shipping a company comes up with a expense. Usually for games they will multiply it by 5 or 3 to come up with an MSRP. There are a lot of products on the market which we buy every day which are near 7 times this number. In the end usually you try to balance your price with that of other similar products in the market. However a business doesn't have to do this. They can charge what they feel their product is worth. I can't remember how long ago I believe some one from Asmodee made a statement about price increases on board games. That luxury games should have a higher price on them because they are bigger games and are just that a luxury. That might not be exactly how it was put but I remember the debate that spurred. So be honest I look at the price and I don't think its that expensive in todays world.
Also judging by the backing and how much they have raised so far I think they actually came up with a price backers are willing to pay. Am I going to back this? No. Not because of the price because it doesn't interest me. Would I pay if it did. I might because I like the idea of chips and the mats and all that they put in. Most companies would just make cardboard tokens, cardboard hexes, not put a thought into storage and most likely charge over 100 for this. Then get you on shipping for more. I often pimp up my games with storage, protecting tokens, converting tokens to something else, and doing all sorts of things so I appreciate companies that do have more upgraded components. To me I think that is what should be on most board game kickstarters. Upgraded games with more touch to the components and storage. I also like that this company chose to put the shipping into the price rather than adding it later.
Great video as always KoA! While I’m a huge fan of the IP, I’m going plan to pick this one up via retail/after market. FYI - the injection mold delivery system consists of the Sprue, Runner and Gate(s). The Gate being the vestige you are referring too as the point of polymer entry into the cavity of the mold. I love your explanations and info you are bringing to the industry. You are very much appreciated!
Great video. As a USA backer sticker shock hit real hard and I was out as soon as I realized how little was on offer. Thought I was maybe missing something so thanks for saving me a wad of cash and some storage space.
The business model from CTG is to make games with premium quality components. They come at a hefty premium cost. In my opinion it doesn't add any value in terms of fun, gameplay, enjoyment. So if you are on a budget, definitely pick something else. For example Gloomhaven and Mage Knight are way better "bang for buck" in terms of hours of gameplay per dollar spent.
I have endless value out of TMB. I am down for whatever CTG wanna do.
LOL so if I have this right based on your video, "Chip Theory are charging this price on their game so they can make a profit!!"
This video (and some of your other Kickstarter critiques) are weird because it seems to be criticizing the obvious, that Chip Theory is not running a charity and indeed is a capitalist enterprise.
As customers we seem obsessed with having our cake and eating it too. Cheap games! But lots of stretch goals! I should be paid well and have great benefits! But companies I buy products from shouldn't make any money off of me but they should still pay their people well! But shipping is too expensive! But free shipping is smoke and mirrors and a scam! In a world where Holy Grail is going under, Darkest Dungeon barely made it backers, Blacklist minis were a mess, etc, I'd rather a company charge me what they need to be a successful enterprise than wonder if my game will ever show up.
The answer, quite simply, is clickbait. KoA used to be serious, but now he needs to cater to the rage baiting that he's shifted toward over the past year and a half or so.
That's a far too simplistic look at it. This is what your comment logically follows: Companies want to make profit, so you can never discuss how much they charge for things.
That's just silly man. They could put it on Gamefound for $9,999 and say it's for profit and I can't make a video to discuss the purchase price? Of course we can discuss it :)
Let's reverse it and say they were selling it for $90. Could I then not make a video saying how great of a deal it is? Or can I only not discuss price when it's not 100% positive?
And @Thor, always a pleasure. Regardless of what I'm doing it's great to see you consistently watching. Hopefully that means you secretly find what I make helpful in some way :)
@@TheKingofAverage Not saying you shouldn't discuss it at all, just saying it's very odd to criticize a company for making a profit on a product. Mythic went out of business because they didn't charge enough. Holy Grail just went out of business leaving backers hanging. Countless other companies are coming back to backers and asking for more funds to get projects delivered. I've seen the guys from Oathsworn comment in several facebook groups that they made absolutely no money on the initial run of a game that garnered endless acclaim. If anything this campaign seems like it might be a window into what things actually need to cost if huge productions like this are going to continue to exist in board games. And yeah - newsflash - this stuff is expensive. "Is it worth it?" is a completely fair question to ask. "They are making a profit off of you!" is a very silly thing to wield as a critique, particularly when you have other videos also critiquing Kickstarters for not delivering, charging too much for shipping, etc. There simply has to be more to it than what you're projecting in these videos or the industry wouldn't be experiencing some of the crises/company collapses we've seen this past year.
One thing about the health chips, I have the weighted health chips for TMB so I’ll just use those when playing this too. I figured it’s a way to keep the price $10 lower for the CTG veterans 😅
Ah do you have enough? I'd worry they'd be different amounts.
@@TheKingofAverage dont worry.
When I saw there were no miniatures I was surprised but I was still happy with it as it seemed to have great art (unlike the Skyrim boardgame) and it wouldn't hit my wallet too badly... I was wrong. I'd be prepared to pay this price for a miniature game but not for this.
You can be sure that chips are really better in osder to play. You can see your map and you will have all your stats on the chip! And what a feeling!!!
Muchhhh smaller boxes but everything still has that premium feel, greater than a standee does
@@crockpot5921 premium to what exactly? a bunch of dice, cards, chips and tiles that can't be used for anything else other than this game? It's just a big waste of money for me.
@@marieteach2376 if it’s anything like too many bones, which it seems like it will, there is pvc instead of paper (booklets, cards, reference sheets, etc), thick neoprene instead of cardboard, weighted chips for everything but the health chips which is an add on and plastic storage for everything (not thin inserts or crappy trays, everything has a place in a high quality plastic holder or container). The boxes are the only paper product and they are like this reinforced cardboard material. I’ve never seen another company take premium this far, no components are overlooked. To that end it is complete overkill and raises the price but you are getting a quality product. Without minis or other bulky items the box size is incredibly small compared to the game and what’s in the box.
@@marieteach2376 not to mention all the custom dice are high quality but I think that goes without saying. From what I’ve seen the neoprene map mats could be used for other games as well. It is expensive, but other than minis and map tiles most components in other games never see use in another setting this one is only missing the minis :)
I will need to reread the campaign, but I suspect the ‘stretch goals’ are essentially the rest of the game (on disc dlc?), and arguably already factored in given pretty safe projections on how well it would likely do.
There is no mention of there being a ‘free expansion’ (like with TMB) for backers’, chip theory don’t do exclusives, and this would help get around having to get approvals from Zeni/Nethesda.
Kinda deceptive if this is actually the case, but would leave a better gauge of value at the end, which certainly seems quite poor when looking at their ‘what’s in the box’.
So far, every product from Chip Theory has been worth every penny to me. The production is unparalleled, and the games are extremely well designed
I would not agree that CTG games are overpriced, but I would not argue with labelling them overproduced. You get what you pay for with CTG. TMB is one of my favorite games and the premium components contribute to that. I've not regretted the purchase. I'll will back this if I can scrape together the money.
"I can proxy..." Yep, I am done buying huge games that have me buying redundant components, with occasional exceptions. I didn't even give give Maladum a second glance. Sell me the rules, dice, and cards like Elder Scrolls: Call to Arms. Sell me just the rules like Five Leagues from the Borderlands or Mork Borg: Forbidden Psalm. I've got 2 great neoprene inch grid battlemats I play them on. I've got stunning 3d printed terrain that I add to slowly as I need to. I print miniatures and I'm soon getting an absolute ton of generic standees between Dungeon Universalis and League of Dungeoneers. I can have a premium experience without buying the same thing dozens of times, and now that I'm at that point, I'm passing campaigns by. I'm buying Marvel United because I want those specific minis, or I'd sell them and proxy some beautiful community made inch tokens. But otherwise, I'm digging deeper into games I love, especially ones with community, ones with a long tail, ones with fan-made content and years of engagement with both the game and the fans.
Maladum will be amazing. Core Space is a blast and Maladum is a more polished fantasy version. What's not to love? It's your loss if you don't want to give it a 2nd glance.. ;) Otherwise I generally agree with you, I also don't need more minis and I'm backing League of Dungeoneers. But Battle Systems just makes THAT good games and terrain.. ;)
@@1AngelAlita I would have definitely taken a look if they'd sold a version without terrain. I don't need paper terrain; I have much better. The loss of one game is offset by a lot of $10-20 games and expansions of games I love that I can buy instead, ones that have community support. I really do wish they'd done the sensible thing and sold a version without terrain or battlemat (or minis, if I'm really dreaming), because I probably would have gotten it.
Chip theory routinely says that their games would cost much more in retail. They maintain that the only reason they can sell their games at such a low price point is because they sell direct to the consumer. Too many bones has a 150 price on their store and they have always claimed in the past that it would be much more if they used normal retail routes. It sounds like you don't agree with that. What are your thoughts on that?
retail doesnt agree with that lol. a lot of their games are showing up in retail with discounts and free shipping at the normal thresholds. there is even a retailer pledge in this campaign. i have all of CTGs stuff, but there stuff is expensive. it can obviously be cheaper or there wouldnt be a retailer pledge option.
8 told my mates this was an instant back for me, all in, I said. Then I saw the base game price. 200 plus 20 percent vat. As others have said, there isn't enough content in base price for me, not enough map hexes, loot cards etc. I'm a little gutted. I can afford it but I just hate being robbed and at the moment I'm holding back to see if the content will increase to justify the cost for me. For the price the game would have to be getting played constantly for months.
Truth is, their games with chips are heavy and shipping would be pricey and it will cost more in retail/direct/later. It is a slam dunk for them. Easy money (unless gameplay is awful).
They're baking shipping into the price of the game, so it'll probably be a bit cheaper at retail
This will be worth every penny spent. Either in game play or resale value, which ever is more important to you. You compared this a lot to CMON games. This is how i see it. You can fly first class with Delta, or you can fly Frontier Air. They both get you where you are going, but one just FEELS better and you know you're more than likely going to have a better experience. Not to really besmirch CMON as i back most/a lot of their games. There is just a difference between Chip Theory and pretty much any other company. I don't feel bad paying a little more for their games. I liked how you broke everything down and explained that even after all you said, you're still a backer. I'm a backer too and i know it's expensive but damn it it's going to be worth it, whether i end up enjoying the game or not. Chip Theory has earned my trust and my money.
I like that analogy :)
Does CTG sell their stuff later via retail or do they have a shop?
They have a webstore and flat rate shipping. I picked up the 1st edition from their store after the original KS. Nothing goes to other retailers AFAIK
Worldwide store they have. Local game stores can also stock their stuff.
@@dogtags2010 thanks, good to know they do that
You can easily find their stuff at retail (base games anyway)
Have you actually handled any CTG game?
yes. all of them. its expensive just the same. my cloudspire box with all the expansions weighs 20ish pounds. i have all of burncycle and tmb minus the undelivered campaigns. i didnt see anything wrong with michael said
@@Mike_James The problem is that he's making an awful lot of assumptions about components and pricing seemingly based almost entirely off of looking at pictures.
@@thor5120 he is likely more accurate than fans would want to admit. there is a retailer pledge. they arent going to sell the game to them at a break even point and itll be cheaper than what we are being charged to a degree where it makes sense for a retailer to do it. im ok with CTG making money, but it is what it is.
plus i figure at this point CTG has to have a good supply chain set up. they arent paying top dollar for all of their components every new game considering the amount of business they bring to the table. the components are nice, but it doesnt mean they are crazy expensive to produce.
I thought his video was spot on. It isn’t even so much the components for me (I’m sure they are nice) but rather the scant details of the content, and what type of replayability there will be. I can justify spending $200-$400 on a campaign game that I will enjoy for 60 hours or more (100+ in some cases). But with these apparently light-on-story mini campaigns, and the same final showdown every time, it is looking like the content and replayability is questionable at the moment. For $200+, I need a bit more info on that.
20 strong is the first time CTG have really tried to go for making a “cheap” game. Otherwise it’s well within the range of what you’d expect from them. Compared to the size of TMB or cloudspire, there is a lot more in these boxes than you get with their other games, so the comparable price increase id think is understandable..?
I do think CTG put more effort into a lot of their games than some others though too - compared with something like marvel zombies, scenarios and enemies are always a lot more varied and in depth; it usually at least seems like they’re not just slapping a new IP sticker onto a standard mission and calling it a days worth of work. Going by what they said on stream, their first meeting with Bethesda and zenimax around the game was pre covid. Sure, they’ve had other projects going on at the same time since then, but you’re talking 2.5-3 years of development on this one? I think the labour aspect of it has to be taken into account too; could it have been done cheaper? Absolutely, but by the time they lose a slice of the pie to IP on top of other costs, how many units do you think they would have had to have sold to meet their breakeven point on the campaign?
This. Most people are looking at cost of product vs cost of what's in the box. Not accounting for the years of dev work, art time etc. Yes they probably are making like 60%+ in pure profit on these, that goes back into paying staff and covering costs of running the company. There's soooo much more on the backend that needs to be accounted for. Add to that we know zenimax are pretty scummy with gouging prices.
I'm backed for now based on IP and reputation, but mostly I'm still watching and waiting to see what makes this game special and something that clicks for me. The live stream playthrough made the game seem competent but not yet fun for me.
CTG is the best boardgame company ever. I love all their games. They will fix some things. They always present a product which is not totally finished on crowfunding (it should, by the way, be the same for every company as crowfunding is not a store!!!). And they always add things, listen to their fans. They are amazing!!!
The IP adds value (even if it's sentimental) but there's a licensing fee that they don't have when using their own IP. That could explain part of the price increase. They might also be forecasting a lot of stretch goals, so cost increase. So they have to guess what the cost will be at the end of the campaign. So yes that price is inflated but maybe not by that much. I'm also wondering about the timing of the campaign...TMB Unbreakable will start to deliver in about a month, in May. For a company that's giving free shipping, that a big expense coming up.
I actually spoke about the IP costs in the video so I assume you commented before that (which is totally fine, just means your thoughts lead to the same area I did though we come to a different conclusion) :)
You did. It would be helpful to explicitly do the math. The IP cost is *at least* 15% of gross and could be 30%. Other IP’s get 50% of gross…
IP fee >= VAT or shipping costs
For $230 pledge:
15% = $34.50
30% = $69
50% = $115
Apple, Google, Microsoft, Sony, and Nintendo all charge ~30% for their IP. 30% is quite likely, IMO.
This is an Apple with three big bites out of it…
IP also adds review and approval cycles as well as legal fees.
One other thing is there are not kickstarter exclusives that if you are late to the game you won't get unless you spend outrageous amounts.
They use quality products on everything and really nothing is needed for upgrades or say like sleeves. So everything should last basically forever unless you intentionally try to destroy it.
Getting cards wet or cardboard wet can basically ruin other games.
Now not saying the price isn't big but with shipping and upgrades it's really not outrageous. Plus the company produces quality games
Thanks for the analysis. Half way through I was like no way am I doing this. At the end I'm like yeah I might still do it. Lived this honest analysis.
hah! Sounds like my own journey a bit :D
I like CTG, i own all of their game (sans burncycle) with all expansions..
I was taken aback by the amount of content you get for the money.
Unless tts demo (if available) proves to be phenomenal, it's a skip for me, sadly
You'll get hundreds of hours of gameplay to discover though. It's not thát terrible of an offer.
I noticed the neoprene discrepancy when I saw that in League of Dungeoneers it cost 7 euros as an add on.
Sounds about right. No joke it's pretty cheap to manufacture all things considered.
Neoprene quality (both print and thickness) varies a LOT between manufacturers though. I’ve gotten some absolute TRASH thin and floppy mats from other companies for $25. On the other hand, CTG neoprene is always great and thick.
@@DonSilvestre is it really? Too many bones had fine mats, but i saw some problem with print. I wonder if a cut in playmat is more expensive than mat itself
@@PentaHousen Yes it is, really. No idea on the cut neoprene being more expsensive, but I can’t imagine why it wouldn’t be
Hmmm,
I get your normal views of products but I think where you missed the mark (for me) is you note the product is expensive but never compared apples to apples.
In this case I am referring to Too Many Bones...this game takes the core bones of TMB (from what I can initially tell and adds IP.
So how much does this product cost if we compare TMB+Shipping versus this product cost (and considering uptick for IP) this viewers likely would have interest in.
Other caveat is potentially a "stretch goal" still may have a chance to add say an unexpected expansion or something though true CTG normally avoid FOMO aspects and mentions everything either way will be available to buy after the campaign.
Note: Its been ages since i looked at TMB price so it would take me even a bit of research to look it up. I did check that base TMB was $130 on last campaign and this game is 195 so $65 difference when considering shipping including is still a margin but on consumer end not a crazy margin difference after sticker shock value.
On my side I am still considering if I want to back or reach out to Chip Theory Games as a smaller channel to review the product.
My initial thought is I may want to wait to see how many legs the game will have as I fully suspect CTG will have even more expansions and its safer to wait and confirm instead of it being a 7/10 game it realy is a top tier game. This is where i think the biggest concern is for me at least is not enough game videos with I believe one on launch day (they did note some reason why in the campaign itself).
Anyhow I could probably ramble on, interesting video still I just disagree that its expensive for what it is. What i do consider many of their games are is well over produce product that comes with a luxury price that buyers have to be aware of but CTG caters to this and I am less concern about their mark up because if your correct then thats excellent for them to help stay in business given the typical awful margins the board game industry can have.
Yeaa I gave up on this scene. Tamashii will be the last game I back, and until companies learn that scamming or overpricing your customers will result in bad blood, I'm going to play with whatever I have
Hats off to you! The rest of us our weak and easily distracted by cleverly crafted crowdfunding pages.
It is a sound philosophy. I keep thinking that I should reduce my game collection to about 25 games, instead of 100+. Probably isn't going to happen though?
It helps a lot more that the people that you want to play the games with are no more around you, that was the 1st blow couple of years ago. (They are still very much alive and well, but could care less about whether I'm alive or dead at this point.)
Then it descended into almost backing grim dynasty because I love those kind of games but no one else likes.
Then watching these scams unfold. I'd take a nail bat and enter their offices if I could but well.
Thanks, Michael for bringing into focus my main reason why I'm passing on this: costs. CTG is a premium game company maker and more power to them and their fans who love everything they publish but I can't justify backing this, especially cuz I'm not a CTG or TES fan, I'm not a content creator who needs to keep the finger on the pulse and I don't have $200 to burn on FOMO and honestly? I just don't think enough unique and exploration-focused gameplay is there for me. And, sadly, this also means the last chance for me to convince myself that a CTG game can lure me in. I was willing to like this, and I do to a certain degree, but for me at least the "experiment" feels too pricey. 😔
While I agree with you that the material costs will probably not be very high, there are a lot of other costs you didn’t mention, i. e. all the hours of work by many people put into this.
Just for fun, let’s break down the cost of the game (a very rough estimate):
Materials, printing, packing $ 40
Game development, graphics, editing, playtesting $ 40
General costs: rent, utilities, customer service etc. $ 30
IP fee $ 20
Shipping $ 50
Profit $ 15
Sum $ 195
If this is halfway right, it’s still a very good profit, though not as outrageous as you implied.
That's not how pricing of products work. You don't charge $60 for a deck of cards when everyone else charges $30 just because you spend longer making it.
Awaken Realms has multiple 40-man teams of artists and devs. That doesn't mean they charge more for their game than the indie guy and his buddy that made a similar game. You charge what people are willing to pay taking into account necessity (costs, shipping, etc.) - the design is paid for by actually making the product to sell.
This is why suddenly now that an IP is involved it's a $200 base pledge. People, because of the IP, are willing to pay more. It's got mostly nothing to do with any design costs IMO.
@@TheKingofAverage I disagree. By your own logic I could sell a $30 card game for $60, as soon as I make it an IP game - and find buyers for it.
If Awaken Realms don't cover their real costs, they will go broke. A two people team can calculate differently and arrive at a different price. The real difference will be in edition size - a two people team might be in the black after selling 500 copies, while Awaken Realms might have to sell more than 10,000 copies to get there.
People are willing to pay more for IP, that we can agree on.
Awaken realms also works on multiple titles, they have 3 projects coming up on crowd funding, if they have 45 employees equally divided into each projects it’s the same as all of chip theory working on one singular title. It’s easier for them to cover cost. I’m pretty sure if they had 45 employees all working on stalker, that games price will definitely match that.
I feel most Chip Theory games are a little over priced, some of their games were expensive day 1 of their production and haven't gone down any. I get they are using flat rate shipping, but that just means they take the highest cost to ship to whatever country/location and add that into the cost of the product, so everyone pays a bit. Do agree the IP with Elder Scrolls does seem like it's adding the normal 30% inflation that you see with most games. And just like most of the Video Game based IPs their is a lot of bloat and expecting backers to just jump right in not knowing much about the gameplay. We are too far behind on Too Many Bones and not going to spend $1000 to get it all, so was hoping this one would be a good entry point, but $230 for the base game and one expansion seems a little high compared to TMB $150 for core box and $30 for an expansion so $180.
I agree, I was so excited to get in on a CTG product having heard so much about Too Many Bones. I immediately backed as backer #544. But as you said, I backed before seeing what it includes. Now that I see, I honestly don't think it's worth more than $100 given an alleged Kickstarter discount. I keep thinking of all the other great games I could buy right now for $200 instead.
Well, you could withdraw your pledge and buy those other games. Real question is, would you do it now or do you still want Elder Scrolls from CTG? ;)
Backer 613 here, I'm still getting it because I love the video game and I've never tried chip theory before, but I do agree they are probably 50 bucks more than it should be, the upgraded chips should be free, that's the only complaint I have so far.
527 here and I backed out once I saw what was in the box.. the ammount of hexes is just laughable..
Are you joking? Heavy cheaps, neoprene maps, pvc cards...and ALLL what is coming. CTG games are always around 150$. Add the licence and...your expansive shipping and you get it.
You should keep your pledge. CTG games are SO good. I went for a risky strategist pledge a couple years ago and i really do not regret. My best games are CTG ones!
@@IntBakske No! really not! On TMB you just have a 4x4 map....and the possibilities are invredible. This single map can last for an entire life!!! I can't imagine all what we'll e able to do with all those neoprene maps.
I've backed because of the ESO IP and the Chip Theory Games reputation. But at this pricepoint any other company would provide mini's.
Just imagine the difference in immersion... With mini's this game would be a nr1 contender...
Oh yeah and a bit more tiles wouldn't hurt either.
I've done hundreds of delves and dungeons in the Elder Scrolls games, and what made those great is the immense variety.
16 tiles won't bring that feeling to the table.
Still, I'm looking forward to CTG to blow me away on this one...
Imagine how much it would’ve cost if there were miniatures.
I was on board for getting this. It was possibly going to be my last crowd funded game as I’m not buying anymore unless I see an absolute amazing one come along which I don’t expect.
After seeing the cost and the gameplay I’m not really excited about the game anymore. I like the free shipping but still bit pricey.
I also have the issue of 3 other unfinished campaign games on my shelves and don’t even know if or when they’ll be finished. So why buy another one?
Honestly feel I’ve come to the end of my gaming enthusiasm.
Perhaps you just need a break. I think we all cool our jets after a while.
Yep I will skip this. Sadly cause I#m a big elder scrolls fan and backed the skyrim boardgame before.
I would love a cardboard version for a reasonable price without all the "high quality stuff" just to enjoy the campaign story.
You can get away with bloating a game with miniatures for a premium price because you can use the miniatures elsewhere, however bloating it with premium chips, dice and pop-out mats which you can only use with this game is asking a lot.
About VAT
Shipping has to be VATed ;)
Only the shipping to border but the only CF campain i know making this a differend is the battletech kickstarter live at the moment
Oh interesting thank you!
In Europe you pay VAT on shipping So that's the same...
true but at least they offer to pay in installments then it is only about 12- 19 $ per month for 10 months depending on a version ... that is affordable
The variety is the only thing putting me down in this one. It seems too little gear and items for what we are paying, a few runs of the game and you will have seen almost all content. I will probably still back because shipping is free and I live in Brazil, so not only the price would increase later but the added shipping could potentially double the total price
Your IP cost is interesting. If you look at the cost of Lego (home grown theme) vs Lego (Star Wars or Disney theme) you will see a pretty big premium for the SW Lego sets. Does it stop the crowd from buying SW Lego...well maybe a bit. Maybe some just buy a few sets they really like instead of all of them. I buy a few other themes beyond SW Lego like Modular construction, Botanical, Ideas, etc. and I can say I certainly do get a lot more pieces for the same price as SW Lego. Not only that but after buying many SW Lego over the years my grey piece quantity is off the freaking charts and the non SW Lego sets give me a much wider color variety.. I digress a bit away from the board game space but I hope its been at least a little illuminating.
I watch a lot of UA-camrs that cover the games I like but I can honestly say that I feel you are the only one who is 💯 truthful. I appreciate that. There is no worse feeling then spending your hard fought for money on a game that is just disappointing. I'm a huge Fallout fan and after watching a bunch of videos I was close to buying the board game by Fantasy Flight until I watched your video on it. I knew something was off when they stopped supporting it so soon but it seemed like no one wanted to be brutally honest about it. I get it tho, they don't want to bash it and not have the companies not send them new games to review but with that said I feel they aren't being honest with their viewers at the same time. You do a great job of breaking down all the pros and cons of the games you cover. Keep up the amazing work it is much needed and appreciated.
Just to touch on poker chips. First of all ABS weighted chips are NOT casino weight. They're roughly 4g heavier on average. Actual casino chips come in a couple flavours, you have premium plastic injection moulding (abbiati/matsui/sun-fly/Bud Jones) are pretty expensive for their security features. Then you have clays. Clays are EXPENSIVE to manufacture. Each chip starts as a blank, has whatever spot pattern cut and the other colours placed in before it is stamped in a mould. It is very labour intensive. Mould masters cost $50,000+ (source: Classic Poker Chips owner when talking about losing their roman mould master). Let's just be glad we're not talking about clay chip prices ($2+ a chip)
Thank you for the info! :)
@@TheKingofAverage if it ever takes your interest head over to Poker Chip Forum and see some of the stupid amounts guys have paid for chips 🤣🤣🤣
Well , they are making games to make money , not to break even . I hope they are selling their stuff and making a good profit out of it.
Me too! Sadly I feel that $200 for the core game turned many away. 21,000+ grabbed their Too Many Bones expansion but Elder Scrolls gets a bit over 6k. That price turned a lot of people off and that's money left out. More at a lower margin is not as good as fewer at a higher margin IMO.
I enjoy watching your channel.
I understand you like to call out unfair and unjust business practices - which is great, kudos to that.
But here you are explaining manufacturing costs, which as pointed out by some other comments isn’t accurate to begin with. Most importantly this is a small portion of running a business. Designers, staff, office, equipment investment and depreciation costs, and also planning enough to expand the business to do more and larger projects.
They are a business afterall and the majority of players are happy with their products and justify the cost to acquire them. As many have pointed out, they rather have a polished product…
The numbers I give area directly from other developers.
As for staff, office, etc. That's not taken into account when pricing an object for sale. If it took you 3 years instead of 1 to design a deck of cards you don't sell it for double what the other guys do. If you do, it's not for design time. All of that other stuff is used to help make the object you sold more appealing so you sell more, not so you charge more.
You charge what the market can sustain and what people are willing to spend on it.
And they are free to charge $200. I just know it cost them a lot of backers and in the end, less money made overall.
Ah I understand what your point is now.
Yes, you are correct, that the product they release needs to be within the market value of the product and not sole based on how long it took them to make or design. The range is based on justification of the buyers. Your example of Apple is excellent.
It points out that people are willing to pay a premium for CTG products, just like Apple products. This is the cost to maintain customer service, branding, polished products with rounds of QC and game testing.
A product that is half the quality (for oversimplification sake, say half the thickness of the cards) does not cost half the price. It’s is exponentially more expensive to product high quality products.
Your video focuses on manufacturing costs and how this game is overpriced. Where if order to make that comment you should have factor in the justification costs that buyers are willing to pay as per some points mentioned in this comment section.
You also oversimplify the IP process. If you made a boardgame with a famous IP, and/or run a campaign of your own then many of these points will come to light.
So, here we have a company with a good product, that is consistently producing happy customers who are happy to pay a premium for a peace of mind.
Shouldn’t this be within the range of a justified valued product?
@@TheKingofAverage Making less money overall is better than going out of business. You must take into account all your expenses when putting a product up for sale or you won't be in business long. The market dictates what someone is willing to pay for an item. Chip theory games is able to sell there items for more because they provide premium products and great customer services. If you want an example of people doing it wrong then just look at all the producers you love to post about that are going under. They obviously do not know how to run a buisness. Same goes for the ones that are funding games to pay for old projects. Its just a matter of time.
Thank you and you are able to articulate what I’m trying to say much more clearly.
If companies didn’t factor in office space, staff etc. such as the operating expenses to price their products, then that is when companies fail. Cash flow would be negative and they wouldn’t be able to survive in the long run.
Interesting vid, but I don't understand why you didn't compare to Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim the Adventure Game. I don't understand why this Elder Scrolls is over $2 million already when Skyrim's campaign made $1.5 million total. I don't understand why this is more money when Skyrim is basically the same IP and has miniatures. (Skyrim seems to have sold for around $130 for the core game and $300 with expansions). I don't understand why people like this better when the artwork looks like generic fantasy and the Skyrim game looks like actual Bethesda quality imagery. Skyrim's cards even include equipment items where the images seem very similar to the PC/video game. 200 equipment cards alone, BTW. There seem to be TONS of cards and tokens in that one.
Any ideas?
Skyrim Adventure game's minis looked awful, their art looked like cheap unimaginative paint over screen shots, and Modiphius has an absolutely atrocious crowdfunding track record. CTG has a bulletproof reputation for great campaigns, customer service, and if you like the type of thing they do, they really haven't had a bad miss yet (burncycle's divisive and not for me but I see lots of people who love it as well).
I'm okay with how CGT has been handling this campaign. Compared to the Elder Scrolls game from a year or two ago, this just comes off as more appealing. I think realistically, this would be a heavy game to ship, so even though the all-in gameplay bundle is $230, I still consider $30 of that almost being attributed to shipping, if not more. This year, I've been also going for more quality over quantity. I think last year, I backed close to 10 games. This year, I haven't backed a single one. I'm more okay with backing this game because I see where the effort has been put into it and see the potential from the gameplay footage I've seen so far.
It is expensive (here in Italy VAT is 22%) but I'd rather spend money knowing the company will deliver, backed batman escape from arkham asylum later this year and don't know if I'll ever get the game
My wallet is genuinely happy this game doesn't interest me. I was all set to go all in until it launched, and for whatever reason it didn't mesh with my brain. Happy other people are excited for it tho!
Thanks for this video.
After much thought, this will be only the 2nd CTG offering that I don’t back. It’s not entirely a matter of affordability for me, but the price seems frivolous considering the cost of food, electricity, and other things these days. I backed 2d6 Dungeon and the HexploreIt 2nd campaign book instead and am still over $100 under what this one game would cost. Now the question is, do I take that savings and put it towards the Battletech campaign?! 😂
On the CMON Dune thing. I can only speak for myself but I backed less for the IP (although it helps) and more for the fact it was the War of the Ring designers.
I've bought cheaper games with hundreds of minis that were equally as good if not better than this one and I could use those minis in other games. There is no reason to upscale everything to neoprene or expensive materials for a bunch of glorified cardboard pop-outs that will only ever be used for one game, this is ridiculously overpriced for what it is.
I don't own a CTG game, but have looked really good to me--I appreciate the douse of cold water on my hype. I wonder where KoA gets his info on how much all these items cost.
Lol, i hit back the second the page flipped for backing. CTGs take my money!!!
It’s not all about manufacturing costs. You’re also paying for development, playtesting, great customer service, etc. the overall experience of interacting with a Chip Theory game is hands down better than with any other companies game on the market. If I could only buy games from one Company, CTG would be the one. Every part of my experience with their games, their campaigns, and their customer support has been nothing but positive.
CTG makes premiums products that last. Their games are beyond durable and will stand the test of time. I'll happily pay for their products and support them. Their customer service is amazing and they are all good people who actually love what they do and don't cater to the BS FOMO like CMON does. Now, I live CMON games, hate that 90% of the crap they release on KS is exclusive. Plus CTG shipping is cheap for how heavy this stuff is and they do flat rate $15 from their store. If you want a basic breakdown I'd suggest reaching out to Josh/Ghillie before making whatever assumptions/research you did. He would probably be more than happy to talk about cost cause he has in many videos already. Companys are in business to make money period, they have salaries and bills to pay.
I've been in well over 500 campaigns and this is the first one that charged me New Jersey tax to the tune of nearly $27. What's up with that? Just another reason I hate fn Jersey.
I'm curious how they do the math under the hood there. I was charged 7.4% sales tax on the all-in pledge, which is $29.60. State tax here in GA is 4% and my county is 8%. I trust the Gamefound backend about as far as I can throw it, so I can't help but raise an eyebrow.
@@keeop right?!
Yeah I assume they calculated the average per county per state, maybe weighted by population or something. I'm not clear on if we'll pay the difference/get credit when we get more specific in the pm.
I like my too many bones which seems like a much better value than this unfortunately.
DEspite the price, I prefer this over any IP game made by Steamforge. If you compare those games gameplay and how much we get (and how little of Elden Ring SFG put into game to sell tons of expansions) the choice is simple and obvious. Not a fan of those practices, but it;s still lesser evil for me.
Great unbiased video, subscribed. Keep it up
Thank you Nicolas! Happy to have you here :)
multiple stretch goals of 1 item card for increase of $50k is just sad. This is a big amount and I think that backers should receive more than one lonely small piece of paper
CTG cards are made of PVC though
You know they are ripping you off when the health chip on their website is only $30 but the health chips on this game is $35.
They answered this in their comments on the campaign, it’s basically their standard premium health cost + a licensing fee.