I absolutely love your conversations about IWTV. Every week you two bring up a perspective that is greatly appreciated. I have a lot of feeling about this show as well so to sit and listen to yall share my same feelings or bring up new ideas that I haven’t even thought of is so fun to watch. I love this show and I’m happy yall are enjoying it and covering it with such depth. ❤❤❤
since entering iwtv discourse my takeaway has boiled down to: lestat has ALWAYS been aware of human racial oppression, but because he was turned as a white french aristocrat, he never personally learned/felt/faced the weight of it when he was human. then as a vampire his ignorance shifted to a question of vampiric superiority, therefore in his mind any situations of human racism became trivial. he is so far removed from louis’ lived experience as a black man in america that it makes sense why they clashed over it 😭 he does not care about human relations at all, and I think in his mind he was waiting for louis to “get over it” in some way- “it” being his humanity, his blackness, his baggage from being a marginalized and oppressed person…. the problem being that all these things don’t just “go away” once you become a vampire. and instead of understanding, he becomes increasingly frustrated and perplexed at louis’ inability to leave it all behind and adapt to vampiric existence, just like he was able to do. edit: great video btw!! I’m glad y’all are listening to the podcast as well, naomi is a gem of a host and I wish they brought her back for s2 😭
Exactly!!!!! You put it perfectly. Its not that Lestat is racist, Lestat doesnt care about human affairs! Racism is a human construct that doesnt fit amongst the vampire existence. Since Louis was still trying to remain human, he was allowing all of that to still get under his skin.
ok y'all. i'm with you but let's tell the truth about black folks. it was louis' creole mammy that made him feel suicidal by blaming him for his brother's death. the brother that he truly loved. the suicidal feelings he felt were sowed in louis by his mammy and not lestat.
Yes!!!!!! Louis wanted to die, so Lestat gave him the death he wanted. Ive seen people say Lestat turned him against his will and Im like, nah... He told him exactly what he was going to do and asked Louis if he wanted a better life!
Lestat is somewhat oblivious of race and by making Louis a vampire he figured he was removing Louis from the prejudices of the world not realizing that even as a vampire that still exist for him as a black man. Lestat is over 100 years old at this point in the story and most of his primary interactions prior to coming to New Orleans have been with other Vampires so it is hard for him to see that Louis is experiencing a death of his humanity that will take time. It was hard for Lestat when he became a vampire and it was hard for his first love Nicholas which is partly why he behaves the way he does with Louis because of that loss.
What you say is valid. However it's not all about race cause Lestat is in love with Louis which is why he turned him in the first place, so they could be immortal companions. He is trying to guide louis through this process but Louis is so full of guilt and internalized homophobia. And it takes him (Louis)a long time to come to terms with it. Telling Daniel that in the years since his come to accept his sexuality and it wasn't until the 2000's that he least how to control the blood lust and feed without killing. I just think we shouldn't blame it all on Lestat they are all very complex and nuanced characters.
Yes. It’s weird how people try to make everything Lestat’s fault. Is he perfect? No. But he’s not the big bad that is the reason Louis is suffering. Louis was suffering long before and long after Lestat.
Yes...but after several years of Louis explaining these issues to him, at that point he is being overtly dismissive of issues that Louis has to face routinely. Lestat loved going to the opera over and over and over and it brought him so much joy but does he not get how demeaning Louis felt attending it with him? How something that brought Lestat joy routinely hurt Louis? When you don't see race, that doesn't mean you aren't racist or that the ignorance is good natured (the larger message that some don't see at face value).
@@fizzychizzy Lestat has seen how the world changes over time and the moral compass of humanity shift when I mention lived experiences that's what I mean. He's seen the world change over two centuries. I'm not defending him I'm just saying why I think he acts the way he does
@@ginouclint7845 I just want to point out that for the entire time that Lestat has been alive and in greater society, he has seen people of darker skin being discriminated against (2 centuries). There is no point in time, in his existence, that race has not had an impact on the experiences of people of color. And, as a vampire, he can clearly see/hear the thoughts of the people that are oppressed by it. He is aware of it. He talks to Louis about it in episode 1...but he some how thinks Louis is supposed to be above something that has impacted POC's lives for 2 centuries. EDIT: all this to say that Lestat has seen the moral compass shift over time BUT this is one thing that has been fixed the ENTIRE time.
agreed but he has also witnessed the abolition of slavery , the fall of the french monarchy, the separation of church and state, the change in religious beliefs and the evolution of scientific research. Do you imagine that after seeing all of that he would linger on another one of humanity's messed up social and political diseases. Think about it for a second yes discrimination and racism against black people is still rampant to this day but the beliefs themselves, the attitude of the majority has shifted. The norm has changed. And Louis lived to see it.
@@ginouclint7845 TODAY. It has changed today. But in the 1920s, it is the law of the land and rampant in Europe and the US and other places in the world. Its almost absurd to think that Louis would be above something that Lestat has seen exist for 2 centuries i.e. his entire life. Its like the sky being blue or the moon and the stars in the sky at night at this point in time. They just are. Things have shifted but the animus thoughts regarding race have stayed mostly present even when slavery ended. We are not talking about Lestat in the 1960s or 1970s. That is not the time of their relationship. You agree, but you don't seem to get it. It was incredibly dismissive and is crazy that he would even think that it wouldn't be a problem for Louis when he has seen it be a problem for people for 2 centuries.
Yeah, vampirism within Anne Rice's world is absolutely tied to oppression... In my opinion, the books are more so a gay oppression allegory(because they're both white men in the books so obviously there's no race element). But the showrunner & writers are geniuses and that they were able to look at Anne's work see that gay allegory ...and figured that they could add a race element nuance into the show... And all of it still makes sense. There were a couple of points that were plot points in the books that originally had absolutely NOTHING to do with race but did have the queer allegory... You guys attributed it to the racial nuance that is masterfully woven within the show... But it was an original book friction between the two... Louis is *desperately* trying to hold on to his humanity and stay away from vampirism/gayness... And there's that disconnect between them. Lestat took to vampirism significantly better than Louis did.... All of those moments of disconnect and friction between the two of them that were originally solely a queer allegory... In the show also can have a racial one as well. It just adds so much more depth... And allows for wonderful conversations to happen within the fandom. About Lestats polyamory... That wasn't him trying to be manipulative.... He's honestly just a little bit of a slut... And he, canonically, likes being called one in the books so he wouldn't be upset with me referring to him as such lmaoo... He just really does like variety. I don't think it was necessarily a manipulative thing that he was doing to try and get Louis to snap and kill someone... he just saw that Louis was going through what is essentially a vampire eating disorder... Which was affecting him in multiple ways, like IRL eating disorders do... And just kind of let him go through it after a certain point because Lestat was TRYING to change Louis mind about things these last two episodes... He's been trying to tell him that eating animals is NOT actually sustainable and it WILL start to affect his energy levels & libido etc... but his prodding wasn't working. 🤷♀️ Because Louis is desperately clinging to his humanity as tightly as he possibly can. He WANTS animal blood to be sustainable so badly... But it unfortunately just isn't. And so since Louis is just super depressed... And seems like he doesn't really want to be around Lestat much less have sex with him... Lestat starts fulfilling his needs with other people... Is that a good thing to be doing that I condone in real life? Absolutely not. It's very shitty. But that is why he's doing it... that's just the reality of the motivation behind the character. "Louis doesn't want to have sex with me or be around me and just wants to mope and be depressed and tired bc animal blood? Fine, I'll just go do my own thing then... He WILL eventually realize that subsisting on animal blood isn't sustainable..." That's the thing about Lestat. He is VERY willing to play the long game if his very obvious prodding isn't actually working. He's perfectly fine sitting back and waiting for a very very long time for people to just kind of learn the lesson on their own, if he isn't being listened to... This is one of the first instances I can remember within the show where he does it and it's not going to be the last... They're absolutely moments of Lestat being impulsive and impatient... But he can also be very patient at times. You guys are absolutely right that Claudia coming in changes EVERYTHING... Because yeah, Louis will have someone on his side to bounce things off of... He doesn't just have to interact with someone who has fully embraced their vampirism and is a white man. Louis and Claudia will be able to connect due to their race but also just due to the fact that they are NOT maker and fledgling... As the show has already told us, Maker and fledgling are cut off from each other, psychically... Louis and Claudia won't be. They will be able to connect in a way that Lestat and Louis NEVER will be able to...just like with their race.
Oh yeah Lestat views vampires as much higher on the totem pole than humans. So to him its literally "the petty musings of meat". Except for a few humans most he doesn't care about people. So he doesn't get that regardless of his vampirism he will always be seen as a black man while Lestat is a blond and blue, white and French aristocracy. Oh Lestat will be jealous with anyone rhat Louis is interested in.
As usual I love the talk! You said something here about louis and his choices and how he wouldn't make that choice again, i cannot wait for you to get to the second season
This is set at a time when American was a lot more blatantly racist, most black people were still not conscious of the covert stuff because they are still fighting overt racism, I don’t think Lestat is intentionally racist, as a white European he probably hasn’t taken much notice of his bias until he started to interact with Louis. This is a bad analogy but it’s like how I never really noticed pregnant women till my sister was pregnant, now I spot them everywhere, but since I’ve never been expecting myself I still don’t really know how it affects them. It’s human nature to be most concerned about our own lived experience, and this is before social media, movies or any attempt to get white folk to emphasize with other races
Lestat is obsessed with a black man. He could've chose any white person to turn but chose Louis. There's your answer, I think it's simple. As a black person, personally if you start viewing the show like this, you're not go to enjoy it as much.
I was looking forward to this commentary but I had some issues. I’m not going to tell another black person about their experiences or feelings, it just felt like a lot of seeing racism where I didn’t. The time period was also a consideration I think has been not explored enough, not to excuse behavior but to examine reactions and relationships. Lestat is a vampire not a person some of his contempt may be towards humanity in general. Also keep in mind the fact that Louis may be an unreliable source or what is Louis motivations or situation when recalling his version. Look forward to more of your work!
@@2ndround415 yeah, there is also genuinely the aspect of racism working a little bit differently in France compared to how shit was going down in the US... Like they show it in the first episode... Like racism DID exist in France but it was nowhere NEAR to the level like it was in the US during this time period... And it took a little bit of adjusting for Lestat he's like "wow these people treat you like shit for no reason... that's crazy, Louis!"... So like yeah there's a genuine disconnect in the show about how racism in the US affects Louis' daily life... That Lestat just genuinely can't understand because racism ISN'T like THIS in France, genuinely. He can't see the nuance. And since the behavior isn't being directed at Lestat because he's a white man... he can't see it as clearly. Like in episode 2 he was genuinely really frustrated and confused as to why Louis killed that very important man in town because he was racist towards Louis... In a way that Lestat can't understand because he's a white man and also because he's French he doesn't understand the nuances of racism in the US... They don't treat black people in France that way... Like racism did still exist but it wasn't as insidious. Jonah even mentions that Europe functions differently. Very differently... so much so that he is kind of excited that he's going to WAR in Europe because he WILL be treated significantly differently by the Europeans regarding his race and sexuality. Lestat just sees that Louis snapped and killed some human that was VERY important and so he's pissed. Because Lestat knows enough about human society in genral to understand that you don't kill important townsfolk. People will see that they're missing. That seems like a pretty common sense simple rule for Lestat... But Louis emotions got the better of him and he got pissed off at a racist.... But they are psychically cut off from each other and so there's no way for Lestat to understand that specific situation... If Louis was a vampire that Lestat didn't turn into a vampire he could just connect psychically and understand ALL of the complicated emotions that went behind making the choice to kill that man... There would have been more of a chance for Lestat to understand the situation but he just CAN'T for multiple reasons. He isn't sticking his head in the sand and pretending that racism doesn't exist at all. He just does not understand the SPECIFIC brand and flavor of racism that exists in the US... Like in episode 1 he says that he only just got to the US he hasn't been there very long, at this point. Only a couple of years, at most, and also being a white man none of the racism is directed towards him other than potentially people being weird that he's French... Weird tension probably did also exist in that aspect... but that's NOWHERE near on the level of the racism against black people at the time... I don't really agree with them saying Lestat is just kind of seeing the racism and brushing it under the rug in like a malicious way... Like all of this is in Louis' perspective we are seeing things happening to Louis that Lestat isn't seeing and CAN'T see bc they are disconnected. He very literally can't understand how it is emotionally affecting Louis. It just adds another layer of miscommunication. Lestat said if he saw the man be racist to Louis' face he would have killed himself... But the issue is that racism can be extremely subtle in the US, like Louis said. The man told him that Louis did a good job in a super fucking condescending racist way... there's still a chance Lestat might not have picked up on the subtle nuances in the situation that Louis did even if it happened right in front of him. 🤷♀️ That's the difference between covert racism and overt racism, I suppose. One is really easy to pick up on cause it hits you over the head and is blatant. I'm sure once they get further into the show they will see how significantly different the racial situation in France was. As you said, the time period is actually pretty significant! It definitely explains WHY Lestat is reacting to Louis and his behaviour in the way that he is... The rot of racism goes extremely deep in the US in a way that it just doesn't in France in the same way. Lestat is ignorant regarding US racism. But he is NOT maliciously ignorant like they are seeming to imply...IMO.
@@glittermethis Thank you so much! I REALLY appreciate hearing that. ❤️ I'm so grateful that this show was made. Because it's caused such interesting deep conversations to happen within this fandom... I don't have anyone in my real life who has watched this show so everyone here on social media are the only people that I can have these conversations with. I'm really grateful that you liked me just rambling on for paragraphs in the comment section. 🤣 I'm sure it can very easily come off as obnoxious and long-winded. But I type the same way that I speak, in rambles! 🤣🤣
I don’t think Lestat is racist. But he doesn’t care about racism enough to be actively anti-racist which is still bad. Especially having chosen a Black partner. He thinks he is above caring about racism because he isn’t human & he tries to force that ideology on Louis not understanding Louis will be Black regardless if he’s immortal or not. Racism will always affect him.
6:03 In the books the vampires didn’t see themselves as part of the human world. Racism and talks of race, gender, or age was not important because that was apart of the human world. What is important is moral and immortal, period.
Honestly this whole comment section is super mature about this topic when it comes to Lestat compared to most videos I've seen. Personally I can see you guys love IWTV, as do I. But I might have to disagree about Lestat being racist. But however, I think he is more oblivious or dismissive about the racial politics in 1910s New Orleans because he himself was from France and he never has experienced what Louis went through or even is aware about it. For Lestat's case, his was more about wanting Louis to embrace his vampirism. Since vampirism in the books was a metaphor for Queerness, Lestat desperately expects too much from Louis that he doesn't stop to think about Louis' connection to his inner humanity (AKA his racial identity). This is what causes tension within this pairing. It's a sad story to watch. But I appreciate your take on it. From one IWTV fan to another, it's great that everyone's talking about this show. It's a great show!
I also feel like it’s not really touched on much in the show, but part of why Louis wanted Claudia so badly was because she was also Black. There was some very subtle allusions to it in later episodes, but Lestat is never able to realize why that particular dynamic is important to Louis.
This is a great video! You make some great points. I think Lestat's not consciously racist, he just doesn't care because those issues don't concern him the way they affect Louis.
I think this is just a different lens through which to view it. That's the cool thing about having such a complex show that deals with intersectionality. Straight people are going to see different things than gay people. Black people are going to notice different things than white people. It's awesome that we can watch the same show and have so many different perspectives, and then share those perspectives to understand each other a little better. I think what these folks are doing is very cool indeed!
@@abhishekpackage-pg8lc I saw gone with the wind once as a child. Besides not getting the hype of that movie you would have to be blind not to see the racism. You can see the racism in the show as well. But not everything has a racist undertone to it. People who see racism everywhere are just as bad as people who don’t see racism at all. I’m glad I’m not either of those types of people.
all of this analysis is sooo good i was nodding along the whole time. Louis is such a well-written character and his arc in s1 is one of my favorite things in this show. very excited to see what you think of the rest of it!
Yeah, honestly Lestat is not Black. So it was never something he had to see/experience. I don’t think he’s oblivious he just sees it all as “petty musings of meat”. I don’t think he’s racist… but more so NOT anti racist. On Louis’ perspective being Black is the only identity he is allowed in America, so it makes sense that this part of his humanity would be hard to let go. Like he’s not even really a man, “they” call him “boy”. I also think he uses his Blackness as a shield when he gets too close to embracing his gayness (vampirism), because of Black cultures views on Querrness.
We disagree on some things but it's very interesting to hear your opinions on the show! ❤I'm also happy to see you're not being downvoted for sharing these opinions - there is a big divide in this fandom with groups of fans who argue for vastly different interpretations of the show as a whole, it makes it very difficult to share some opinions openly without people lumping you into a certain "camp", and I hate when all of that nonsense spreads to new viewers. I hope you ignore any hate you DO see and keep it at, your opinions on the show are such a joy to listen to! 👏
Lestat isn’t exactly racist I just think he don’t really give af about any kind of human suffering. He only wanted it to seem he empathized with Louis so that Louis would come to trust and confide in him. Lestate definitely used the racism of the time as yet another thing he could offer Louis “freedom” from. He weaponized it for sure.
It's sad that everything you see is happening because of race. The side of town they were walking through was predominately Black. This is why Rolin says " if you watching and trying to be reductive , it won't work for you" But carry on. 🌷
I'm curious as to how this is explained in the books, because Louis being black is (as far as I know) 100% for the show and, apparently, show!Lestat is super accurate to book!Lestat... I haven't read them, but now I want to know if Lestat shows racism towards any character in the books.
In the books Lestat isn't really racist - he's just not especially against racism. He finds slavery very convenient as a source for food (since Louis is a slave-owner). Same way how he goes after prostitutes in the show, since the police/society is less likely to care about the death of a prostitute. That's just the reality of him being a serial killer though, he shows no views in his own narration that shows at any kind of prejudice. Louis on the other hand is very racist in the books as a human, which isn't explored deeply but it is explored a bit - it takes him becoming a vampire to realise the humanity of black people. 😶 In present day when telling the interview he admits his wrongs in that regard. Also for this reason in the books it's kind of a poetic justice moment that Louis becomes a vampire and feels "enslaved," which is missing a bit from the show where we feel more sympathy for Louis in his struggles. Though as has been noted Louis is still descendent of slave owners in the show as a nod to the books. He's a descendent of "Free People of Color," and Jim Crow laws would have been introduced in his lifetime, before that his family would have had much more power in society. And he's still in the business of owning human bodies, I mean even he's not pretending his girls at all want to be there, they just have no other options. So his story does have most of the same character beats, I'd say the major difference is that show!Louis clearly feels guilt/shame for his profession (and his misogyny) in the show even as a human, while book!Louis takes much longer to realize his flaws in this regard. And that makes show!Louis much more sympathetic, despite his actions.
I appreciate that Louis never kills anyone Black in the show of i was a vampire id be the same way but especially after he caused a white riot and devistated the Black community in Storyville.
Why do black people look at the actions of whites as always being racist? I don't believe that The Vampire is racist. I see Louis is carrying the racism of his life like a chain around his neck. He can rise above it. Lestat doesn't see it anymore. Vampires are Gods in Lestat's eyes. The sad part is Anne Rice wrote about a white man; racism wasn't a factor. This show did add a layer of racism to the story, but I don't think the writes meant to make it all about race.
@@yvettelang1961 we never said it was all about race, but the show intentionally exploring racial dynamics in their story. It sounds like you might be bringing your own bias into what we’re actually trying to say here.
@@ourcrazystupidpodcast I feel you are pointing to things that have no racial intentions, but you being black that is the way you see it. Perhaps if we give people the benefit of doubt about their intentions, we can move forwad. I am biracial and have been attacked by 3 sides of racism in America.
I feel like since the show runners and the writers on the show are predominantly white the reason why we're as black people able to see things in a deeper racial lens is bc that's an experience we live that the show runners aren't privy to so they're writing like here's those vampire issue without having the the thought of how race is also playing a bigger factor in Louis and Lestats relationship
@@jasmynsmith4696 much of what is happening here are things from the book. Lestat's dismissiveness is book accurate. Louis's clinging to humanity is also book accurate. Lestat feels Louis should embrace his vampirism, because if he did, he too wouldnt be dealing with these human constructs.
If you guys really did want to entertain this idea you forgot the most obvious evidence for this show having some subliminal racial undertones .... It's the subliminal ones that are more valid to explore . Such as Lestat being framed as a "White Savior" and the "Sub and Dom " type of relationship he had with Claudia and Louie that mirrored that almost of master and slave ... The scene in episode 7 where Louie begs him to make Claudia and Louie is shown emasculated and unable to change her without Lestats help ... Those are the strongest evidence for the subliminal racial programming that is in this show ..,
smh at how every time someone criticizes lestat someone comes running to tell how "it's from louis' perspective and he's an unreliable narrator so it could be that lestat is not that bad 😠😠😠" girl sit down (this about a comment here)
Maybe because it’s the truth? The show runners and actors all said that Louis isn’t telling the full story and is an unreliable narrator. It’s what the entire first 2 season is based off of. If you haven’t watched S2 yet then you won’t understand.🤷🏽♀️
@@PLLittleMama2007maybe it's just me but i think it's embarrassing that people keep waiting for a "better" version of the character to explain away all his flaws and kind of annoying when people have a weak pre-made answer to defend their favorite white man (that doesn't even fit all because it's reductive and kinda useless) when people are trying to genuinely discuss his character. and don't you worry that i watched it all. i really like lestat. his fans (and loustat fans) are something, though.
Yeah, one layer that the creator’s did not think about when making Louis (and Claudia) black is that people don’t believe Black people. A story that positions Louis as an unreliable narrator will trigger that bias. I see it a lot with the comparisons between Louis’ and Lestat’s retellings of Claudia’s turning and the big fight, and how they are quick to believe Lestat over Louis even though both retellings are unreliable.
@@1993sparkmedia Louis legit said that Lestat was telling the truth and that he did not want to look bad by telling Daniel how involved he was in Claudia’s turning. So Louis intentionally lied to make himself look better in the story. All confirmed by Louis himself. I get what you are saying but this has always been the way the story was written. The series will still follow the source material.
Vampires have always been depicted by Hollywood as clever, charming, manipulative elites of the Undead. Add to the cauldron: French cultural arrogance, a view of blacks as amusing diversions/train able puppets and white supremacy, then stir - you get Lestat
Louis is a plantation owner in the books. In the show, the de Pointe du Lac’s generational wealth came from a sugar plantation. Who do you think was working in those sugar fields? The money from the plantation was just about to run dry when Louis took over as executor of his dad’s will, 5 years prior to meeting Lestat. Also, the du Lac’s have black servants in the show. To me, it’s just a continuation of what they were used to having when they owned the plantation. I’m sure they treat those black servants nice. Book Louis (who was white) thought the same way.
I absolutely love your conversations about IWTV. Every week you two bring up a perspective that is greatly appreciated. I have a lot of feeling about this show as well so to sit and listen to yall share my same feelings or bring up new ideas that I haven’t even thought of is so fun to watch. I love this show and I’m happy yall are enjoying it and covering it with such depth. ❤❤❤
@@Dijon17 thank you! It’s been fun so far haha
Lestat went after Jelly Roll because he was going to quit without informing Louis.
since entering iwtv discourse my takeaway has boiled down to: lestat has ALWAYS been aware of human racial oppression, but because he was turned as a white french aristocrat, he never personally learned/felt/faced the weight of it when he was human. then as a vampire his ignorance shifted to a question of vampiric superiority, therefore in his mind any situations of human racism became trivial. he is so far removed from louis’ lived experience as a black man in america that it makes sense why they clashed over it 😭 he does not care about human relations at all, and I think in his mind he was waiting for louis to “get over it” in some way- “it” being his humanity, his blackness, his baggage from being a marginalized and oppressed person…. the problem being that all these things don’t just “go away” once you become a vampire. and instead of understanding, he becomes increasingly frustrated and perplexed at louis’ inability to leave it all behind and adapt to vampiric existence, just like he was able to do.
edit: great video btw!! I’m glad y’all are listening to the podcast as well, naomi is a gem of a host and I wish they brought her back for s2 😭
Exactly!!!!! You put it perfectly. Its not that Lestat is racist, Lestat doesnt care about human affairs! Racism is a human construct that doesnt fit amongst the vampire existence. Since Louis was still trying to remain human, he was allowing all of that to still get under his skin.
Nailed it!!
Vampirism in the show too feels like a metaphor for queerness too.
For sure
It’s very much so in the books too the idea of hiding your desires for society.
@@blkanimeluvr 100% and it is emphasized brilliantly
Covid
ok y'all. i'm with you but let's tell the truth about black folks. it was louis' creole mammy that made him feel suicidal by blaming him for his brother's death. the brother that he truly loved. the suicidal feelings he felt were sowed in louis by his mammy and not lestat.
Not to mention during this time he was hiding his sexuality and feeling catholic guilt.
Yes!!!!!! Louis wanted to die, so Lestat gave him the death he wanted. Ive seen people say Lestat turned him against his will and Im like, nah... He told him exactly what he was going to do and asked Louis if he wanted a better life!
Lestat is somewhat oblivious of race and by making Louis a vampire he figured he was removing Louis from the prejudices of the world not realizing that even as a vampire that still exist for him as a black man.
Lestat is over 100 years old at this point in the story and most of his primary interactions prior to coming to New Orleans have been with other Vampires so it is hard for him to see that Louis is experiencing a death of his humanity that will take time.
It was hard for Lestat when he became a vampire and it was hard for his first love Nicholas which is partly why he behaves the way he does with Louis because of that loss.
What you say is valid. However it's not all about race cause Lestat is in love with Louis which is why he turned him in the first place, so they could be immortal companions. He is trying to guide louis through this process but Louis is so full of guilt and internalized homophobia. And it takes him (Louis)a long time to come to terms with it. Telling Daniel that in the years since his come to accept his sexuality and it wasn't until the 2000's that he least how to control the blood lust and feed without killing. I just think we shouldn't blame it all on Lestat they are all very complex and nuanced characters.
Excellent comment! 🙌🏾
Yes. It’s weird how people try to make everything Lestat’s fault. Is he perfect? No. But he’s not the big bad that is the reason Louis is suffering. Louis was suffering long before and long after Lestat.
Also I don't think Lestat is racist just intentionally oblivious because of his own experiences
Yes...but after several years of Louis explaining these issues to him, at that point he is being overtly dismissive of issues that Louis has to face routinely. Lestat loved going to the opera over and over and over and it brought him so much joy but does he not get how demeaning Louis felt attending it with him? How something that brought Lestat joy routinely hurt Louis? When you don't see race, that doesn't mean you aren't racist or that the ignorance is good natured (the larger message that some don't see at face value).
@@fizzychizzy Lestat has seen how the world changes over time and the moral compass of humanity shift when I mention lived experiences that's what I mean. He's seen the world change over two centuries. I'm not defending him I'm just saying why I think he acts the way he does
@@ginouclint7845 I just want to point out that for the entire time that Lestat has been alive and in greater society, he has seen people of darker skin being discriminated against (2 centuries). There is no point in time, in his existence, that race has not had an impact on the experiences of people of color. And, as a vampire, he can clearly see/hear the thoughts of the people that are oppressed by it. He is aware of it. He talks to Louis about it in episode 1...but he some how thinks Louis is supposed to be above something that has impacted POC's lives for 2 centuries.
EDIT: all this to say that Lestat has seen the moral compass shift over time BUT this is one thing that has been fixed the ENTIRE time.
agreed but he has also witnessed the abolition of slavery , the fall of the french monarchy, the separation of church and state, the change in religious beliefs and the evolution of scientific research. Do you imagine that after seeing all of that he would linger on another one of humanity's messed up social and political diseases. Think about it for a second yes discrimination and racism against black people is still rampant to this day but the beliefs themselves, the attitude of the majority has shifted. The norm has changed. And Louis lived to see it.
@@ginouclint7845 TODAY. It has changed today. But in the 1920s, it is the law of the land and rampant in Europe and the US and other places in the world. Its almost absurd to think that Louis would be above something that Lestat has seen exist for 2 centuries i.e. his entire life. Its like the sky being blue or the moon and the stars in the sky at night at this point in time. They just are. Things have shifted but the animus thoughts regarding race have stayed mostly present even when slavery ended. We are not talking about Lestat in the 1960s or 1970s. That is not the time of their relationship. You agree, but you don't seem to get it. It was incredibly dismissive and is crazy that he would even think that it wouldn't be a problem for Louis when he has seen it be a problem for people for 2 centuries.
Yeah, vampirism within Anne Rice's world is absolutely tied to oppression... In my opinion, the books are more so a gay oppression allegory(because they're both white men in the books so obviously there's no race element). But the showrunner & writers are geniuses and that they were able to look at Anne's work see that gay allegory ...and figured that they could add a race element nuance into the show... And all of it still makes sense. There were a couple of points that were plot points in the books that originally had absolutely NOTHING to do with race but did have the queer allegory... You guys attributed it to the racial nuance that is masterfully woven within the show... But it was an original book friction between the two... Louis is *desperately* trying to hold on to his humanity and stay away from vampirism/gayness... And there's that disconnect between them. Lestat took to vampirism significantly better than Louis did.... All of those moments of disconnect and friction between the two of them that were originally solely a queer allegory... In the show also can have a racial one as well. It just adds so much more depth... And allows for wonderful conversations to happen within the fandom.
About Lestats polyamory... That wasn't him trying to be manipulative.... He's honestly just a little bit of a slut... And he, canonically, likes being called one in the books so he wouldn't be upset with me referring to him as such lmaoo... He just really does like variety. I don't think it was necessarily a manipulative thing that he was doing to try and get Louis to snap and kill someone... he just saw that Louis was going through what is essentially a vampire eating disorder... Which was affecting him in multiple ways, like IRL eating disorders do... And just kind of let him go through it after a certain point because Lestat was TRYING to change Louis mind about things these last two episodes... He's been trying to tell him that eating animals is NOT actually sustainable and it WILL start to affect his energy levels & libido etc... but his prodding wasn't working. 🤷♀️ Because Louis is desperately clinging to his humanity as tightly as he possibly can. He WANTS animal blood to be sustainable so badly... But it unfortunately just isn't. And so since Louis is just super depressed... And seems like he doesn't really want to be around Lestat much less have sex with him... Lestat starts fulfilling his needs with other people... Is that a good thing to be doing that I condone in real life? Absolutely not. It's very shitty. But that is why he's doing it... that's just the reality of the motivation behind the character. "Louis doesn't want to have sex with me or be around me and just wants to mope and be depressed and tired bc animal blood? Fine, I'll just go do my own thing then... He WILL eventually realize that subsisting on animal blood isn't sustainable..." That's the thing about Lestat. He is VERY willing to play the long game if his very obvious prodding isn't actually working. He's perfectly fine sitting back and waiting for a very very long time for people to just kind of learn the lesson on their own, if he isn't being listened to... This is one of the first instances I can remember within the show where he does it and it's not going to be the last... They're absolutely moments of Lestat being impulsive and impatient... But he can also be very patient at times.
You guys are absolutely right that Claudia coming in changes EVERYTHING... Because yeah, Louis will have someone on his side to bounce things off of... He doesn't just have to interact with someone who has fully embraced their vampirism and is a white man. Louis and Claudia will be able to connect due to their race but also just due to the fact that they are NOT maker and fledgling... As the show has already told us, Maker and fledgling are cut off from each other, psychically... Louis and Claudia won't be. They will be able to connect in a way that Lestat and Louis NEVER will be able to...just like with their race.
@@AnxietyRat great points here!
Excellent comment! 🙌🏾
Love this comment and your reflection on this work.
This was beautifully written thank you
Oh yeah Lestat views vampires as much higher on the totem pole than humans. So to him its literally "the petty musings of meat". Except for a few humans most he doesn't care about people. So he doesn't get that regardless of his vampirism he will always be seen as a black man while Lestat is a blond and blue, white and French aristocracy.
Oh Lestat will be jealous with anyone rhat Louis is interested in.
As usual I love the talk! You said something here about louis and his choices and how he wouldn't make that choice again, i cannot wait for you to get to the second season
We're loving the show so far! Can't wait for it!!
@@ourcrazystupidpodcast I've been tuning in every week for this you guys are great
This is set at a time when American was a lot more blatantly racist, most black people were still not conscious of the covert stuff because they are still fighting overt racism, I don’t think Lestat is intentionally racist, as a white European he probably hasn’t taken much notice of his bias until he started to interact with Louis. This is a bad analogy but it’s like how I never really noticed pregnant women till my sister was pregnant, now I spot them everywhere, but since I’ve never been expecting myself I still don’t really know how it affects them. It’s human nature to be most concerned about our own lived experience, and this is before social media, movies or any attempt to get white folk to emphasize with other races
Lestat is obsessed with a black man. He could've chose any white person to turn but chose Louis. There's your answer, I think it's simple. As a black person, personally if you start viewing the show like this, you're not go to enjoy it as much.
@@Dennis_K09 do you think a person in a relationship with a black person can have racist ideas/bias?
@ourcrazystupidpodcast Yes I can believe that, but to ask is Lestat racist is a reach here. Everything isn't that deep!!!
I was looking forward to this commentary but I had some issues. I’m not going to tell another black person about their experiences or feelings, it just felt like a lot of seeing racism where I didn’t. The time period was also a consideration I think has been not explored enough, not to excuse behavior but to examine reactions and relationships. Lestat is a vampire not a person some of his contempt may be towards humanity in general. Also keep in mind the fact that Louis may be an unreliable source or what is Louis motivations or situation when recalling his version. Look forward to more of your work!
@@2ndround415 yeah, there is also genuinely the aspect of racism working a little bit differently in France compared to how shit was going down in the US... Like they show it in the first episode... Like racism DID exist in France but it was nowhere NEAR to the level like it was in the US during this time period... And it took a little bit of adjusting for Lestat he's like "wow these people treat you like shit for no reason... that's crazy, Louis!"... So like yeah there's a genuine disconnect in the show about how racism in the US affects Louis' daily life... That Lestat just genuinely can't understand because racism ISN'T like THIS in France, genuinely. He can't see the nuance. And since the behavior isn't being directed at Lestat because he's a white man... he can't see it as clearly. Like in episode 2 he was genuinely really frustrated and confused as to why Louis killed that very important man in town because he was racist towards Louis... In a way that Lestat can't understand because he's a white man and also because he's French he doesn't understand the nuances of racism in the US... They don't treat black people in France that way... Like racism did still exist but it wasn't as insidious. Jonah even mentions that Europe functions differently. Very differently... so much so that he is kind of excited that he's going to WAR in Europe because he WILL be treated significantly differently by the Europeans regarding his race and sexuality. Lestat just sees that Louis snapped and killed some human that was VERY important and so he's pissed. Because Lestat knows enough about human society in genral to understand that you don't kill important townsfolk. People will see that they're missing. That seems like a pretty common sense simple rule for Lestat... But Louis emotions got the better of him and he got pissed off at a racist.... But they are psychically cut off from each other and so there's no way for Lestat to understand that specific situation... If Louis was a vampire that Lestat didn't turn into a vampire he could just connect psychically and understand ALL of the complicated emotions that went behind making the choice to kill that man... There would have been more of a chance for Lestat to understand the situation but he just CAN'T for multiple reasons. He isn't sticking his head in the sand and pretending that racism doesn't exist at all. He just does not understand the SPECIFIC brand and flavor of racism that exists in the US... Like in episode 1 he says that he only just got to the US he hasn't been there very long, at this point. Only a couple of years, at most, and also being a white man none of the racism is directed towards him other than potentially people being weird that he's French... Weird tension probably did also exist in that aspect... but that's NOWHERE near on the level of the racism against black people at the time... I don't really agree with them saying Lestat is just kind of seeing the racism and brushing it under the rug in like a malicious way... Like all of this is in Louis' perspective we are seeing things happening to Louis that Lestat isn't seeing and CAN'T see bc they are disconnected. He very literally can't understand how it is emotionally affecting Louis. It just adds another layer of miscommunication. Lestat said if he saw the man be racist to Louis' face he would have killed himself... But the issue is that racism can be extremely subtle in the US, like Louis said. The man told him that Louis did a good job in a super fucking condescending racist way... there's still a chance Lestat might not have picked up on the subtle nuances in the situation that Louis did even if it happened right in front of him. 🤷♀️ That's the difference between covert racism and overt racism, I suppose. One is really easy to pick up on cause it hits you over the head and is blatant.
I'm sure once they get further into the show they will see how significantly different the racial situation in France was. As you said, the time period is actually pretty significant! It definitely explains WHY Lestat is reacting to Louis and his behaviour in the way that he is... The rot of racism goes extremely deep in the US in a way that it just doesn't in France in the same way. Lestat is ignorant regarding US racism. But he is NOT maliciously ignorant like they are seeming to imply...IMO.
@@AnxietyRat absolutely 💯 agree with you. Very well said!
@@AnxietyRat Excellent comment! I love reading your comments…they always elevate the conversation.
@@glittermethis Thank you so much! I REALLY appreciate hearing that. ❤️ I'm so grateful that this show was made. Because it's caused such interesting deep conversations to happen within this fandom... I don't have anyone in my real life who has watched this show so everyone here on social media are the only people that I can have these conversations with. I'm really grateful that you liked me just rambling on for paragraphs in the comment section. 🤣 I'm sure it can very easily come off as obnoxious and long-winded. But I type the same way that I speak, in rambles! 🤣🤣
you guys make such good points! i love the idea that lestat is holding onto his humanity through louis. it explains his side of the trauma bond.
I don’t think Lestat is racist. But he doesn’t care about racism enough to be actively anti-racist which is still bad. Especially having chosen a Black partner. He thinks he is above caring about racism because he isn’t human & he tries to force that ideology on Louis not understanding Louis will be Black regardless if he’s immortal or not. Racism will always affect him.
6:03
In the books the vampires didn’t see themselves as part of the human world. Racism and talks of race, gender, or age was not important because that was apart of the human world.
What is important is moral and immortal, period.
Honestly this whole comment section is super mature about this topic when it comes to Lestat compared to most videos I've seen. Personally I can see you guys love IWTV, as do I. But I might have to disagree about Lestat being racist. But however, I think he is more oblivious or dismissive about the racial politics in 1910s New Orleans because he himself was from France and he never has experienced what Louis went through or even is aware about it. For Lestat's case, his was more about wanting Louis to embrace his vampirism. Since vampirism in the books was a metaphor for Queerness, Lestat desperately expects too much from Louis that he doesn't stop to think about Louis' connection to his inner humanity (AKA his racial identity). This is what causes tension within this pairing. It's a sad story to watch. But I appreciate your take on it. From one IWTV fan to another, it's great that everyone's talking about this show. It's a great show!
I also feel like it’s not really touched on much in the show, but part of why Louis wanted Claudia so badly was because she was also Black. There was some very subtle allusions to it in later episodes, but Lestat is never able to realize why that particular dynamic is important to Louis.
The “it’s fine” while shaking his head no! 😂😂😂😂
This is a great video! You make some great points. I think Lestat's not consciously racist, he just doesn't care because those issues don't concern him the way they affect Louis.
Respectfully, I disagree.
I think y’all looked TOO deeply and missed so much of the show by viewing it that way.
I’m so surprised.
😂😅 we tried
I think this is just a different lens through which to view it. That's the cool thing about having such a complex show that deals with intersectionality. Straight people are going to see different things than gay people. Black people are going to notice different things than white people. It's awesome that we can watch the same show and have so many different perspectives, and then share those perspectives to understand each other a little better. I think what these folks are doing is very cool indeed!
@@Nihilist_Porcupine folks can look at gone with the wind and see no racism.
@@Nihilist_Porcupine
Well I’m Black so just because you’re Black doesn’t mean you will see the same thing either.
But thanks!
@@abhishekpackage-pg8lc
I saw gone with the wind once as a child. Besides not getting the hype of that movie you would have to be blind not to see the racism.
You can see the racism in the show as well. But not everything has a racist undertone to it.
People who see racism everywhere are just as bad as people who don’t see racism at all.
I’m glad I’m not either of those types of people.
Lestat see human as food.
Your reviews are so insightful. I've watched other creators' videos and still found yours entertaining and delving into new perspectives. Thank you.
all of this analysis is sooo good i was nodding along the whole time. Louis is such a well-written character and his arc in s1 is one of my favorite things in this show. very excited to see what you think of the rest of it!
Hi guys. You know that season 1 is now streaming on Netflix right?
Bruh lol
Yeah, honestly Lestat is not Black. So it was never something he had to see/experience. I don’t think he’s oblivious he just sees it all as “petty musings of meat”. I don’t think he’s racist… but more so NOT anti racist. On Louis’ perspective being Black is the only identity he is allowed in America, so it makes sense that this part of his humanity would be hard to let go. Like he’s not even really a man, “they” call him “boy”. I also think he uses his Blackness as a shield when he gets too close to embracing his gayness (vampirism), because of Black cultures views on Querrness.
We disagree on some things but it's very interesting to hear your opinions on the show! ❤I'm also happy to see you're not being downvoted for sharing these opinions - there is a big divide in this fandom with groups of fans who argue for vastly different interpretations of the show as a whole, it makes it very difficult to share some opinions openly without people lumping you into a certain "camp", and I hate when all of that nonsense spreads to new viewers. I hope you ignore any hate you DO see and keep it at, your opinions on the show are such a joy to listen to! 👏
Lestat isn’t exactly racist I just think he don’t really give af about any kind of human suffering. He only wanted it to seem he empathized with Louis so that Louis would come to trust and confide in him. Lestate definitely used the racism of the time as yet another thing he could offer Louis “freedom” from. He weaponized it for sure.
Lestat is sooo pro black.. I dont even need to watch the video...
I love that people are watching this show because I’ve read all the books and Anne rice is my fav author🎉
Glad I stumbled upon this vid. Always wanted to discuss the show with someone with a black perspective! Great discussion guys!
It's sad that everything you see is happening because of race. The side of town they were walking through was predominately Black. This is why Rolin says " if you watching and trying to be reductive , it won't work for you"
But carry on. 🌷
@@jordanparker657 the show is very intentional about exploring racial themes. If you disagree with that, that’s fine.
I'm curious as to how this is explained in the books, because Louis being black is (as far as I know) 100% for the show and, apparently, show!Lestat is super accurate to book!Lestat... I haven't read them, but now I want to know if Lestat shows racism towards any character in the books.
Louis is a slave owner in the book…
@@PLLittleMama2007 Say whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat?!
@@MsPsychedelia And on the show Louis’ family money comes from sugar plantation.
In the books Lestat isn't really racist - he's just not especially against racism. He finds slavery very convenient as a source for food (since Louis is a slave-owner). Same way how he goes after prostitutes in the show, since the police/society is less likely to care about the death of a prostitute. That's just the reality of him being a serial killer though, he shows no views in his own narration that shows at any kind of prejudice.
Louis on the other hand is very racist in the books as a human, which isn't explored deeply but it is explored a bit - it takes him becoming a vampire to realise the humanity of black people. 😶 In present day when telling the interview he admits his wrongs in that regard. Also for this reason in the books it's kind of a poetic justice moment that Louis becomes a vampire and feels "enslaved," which is missing a bit from the show where we feel more sympathy for Louis in his struggles.
Though as has been noted Louis is still descendent of slave owners in the show as a nod to the books. He's a descendent of "Free People of Color," and Jim Crow laws would have been introduced in his lifetime, before that his family would have had much more power in society. And he's still in the business of owning human bodies, I mean even he's not pretending his girls at all want to be there, they just have no other options. So his story does have most of the same character beats, I'd say the major difference is that show!Louis clearly feels guilt/shame for his profession (and his misogyny) in the show even as a human, while book!Louis takes much longer to realize his flaws in this regard. And that makes show!Louis much more sympathetic, despite his actions.
I appreciate that Louis never kills anyone Black in the show of i was a vampire id be the same way but especially after he caused a white riot and devistated the Black community in Storyville.
Never kills a black person in the show?😂 What about his boys? If you don’t understand that then I guess you haven’t made it that far yet.
It sounds like the person doing this analysis only watched season 1
@@missbritt288 yes. We’re only on episode 4. It’s a weekly podcast
It's a bit of both 😂😂
Why do black people look at the actions of whites as always being racist? I don't believe that The Vampire is racist. I see Louis is carrying the racism of his life like a chain around his neck. He can rise above it. Lestat doesn't see it anymore. Vampires are Gods in Lestat's eyes. The sad part is Anne Rice wrote about a white man; racism wasn't a factor. This show did add a layer of racism to the story, but I don't think the writes meant to make it all about race.
@@yvettelang1961 we never said it was all about race, but the show intentionally exploring racial dynamics in their story.
It sounds like you might be bringing your own bias into what we’re actually trying to say here.
@@ourcrazystupidpodcast I feel you are pointing to things that have no racial intentions, but you being black that is the way you see it. Perhaps if we give people the benefit of doubt about their intentions, we can move forwad. I am biracial and have been attacked by 3 sides of racism in America.
@@yvettelang1961 that’s real
I feel like since the show runners and the writers on the show are predominantly white the reason why we're as black people able to see things in a deeper racial lens is bc that's an experience we live that the show runners aren't privy to so they're writing like here's those vampire issue without having the the thought of how race is also playing a bigger factor in Louis and Lestats relationship
@@jasmynsmith4696 much of what is happening here are things from the book. Lestat's dismissiveness is book accurate. Louis's clinging to humanity is also book accurate. Lestat feels Louis should embrace his vampirism, because if he did, he too wouldnt be dealing with these human constructs.
If you guys really did want to entertain this idea you forgot the most obvious evidence for this show having some subliminal racial undertones .... It's the subliminal ones that are more valid to explore . Such as Lestat being framed as a "White Savior" and the "Sub and Dom " type of relationship he had with Claudia and Louie that mirrored that almost of master and slave ... The scene in episode 7 where Louie begs him to make Claudia and Louie is shown emasculated and unable to change her without Lestats help ... Those are the strongest evidence for the subliminal racial programming that is in this show ..,
smh at how every time someone criticizes lestat someone comes running to tell how "it's from louis' perspective and he's an unreliable narrator so it could be that lestat is not that bad 😠😠😠" girl sit down
(this about a comment here)
Maybe because it’s the truth? The show runners and actors all said that Louis isn’t telling the full story and is an unreliable narrator. It’s what the entire first 2 season is based off of. If you haven’t watched S2 yet then you won’t understand.🤷🏽♀️
@@PLLittleMama2007maybe it's just me but i think it's embarrassing that people keep waiting for a "better" version of the character to explain away all his flaws and kind of annoying when people have a weak pre-made answer to defend their favorite white man (that doesn't even fit all because it's reductive and kinda useless) when people are trying to genuinely discuss his character.
and don't you worry that i watched it all. i really like lestat. his fans (and loustat fans) are something, though.
Yeah, one layer that the creator’s did not think about when making Louis (and Claudia) black is that people don’t believe Black people. A story that positions Louis as an unreliable narrator will trigger that bias. I see it a lot with the comparisons between Louis’ and Lestat’s retellings of Claudia’s turning and the big fight, and how they are quick to believe Lestat over Louis even though both retellings are unreliable.
@@1993sparkmedia exactly!! it's pretty maddening tbh
@@1993sparkmedia Louis legit said that Lestat was telling the truth and that he did not want to look bad by telling Daniel how involved he was in Claudia’s turning. So Louis intentionally lied to make himself look better in the story. All confirmed by Louis himself. I get what you are saying but this has always been the way the story was written. The series will still follow the source material.
Vampires have always been depicted by Hollywood as clever, charming, manipulative elites of the Undead. Add to the cauldron: French cultural arrogance, a view of blacks as amusing diversions/train able puppets and white supremacy, then stir - you get Lestat
He was a slave owner in the film so why not
To be clear: _Louis_ was a slave owner in the books/film, not Lestat.
Louis is a plantation owner in the books. In the show, the de Pointe du Lac’s generational wealth came from a sugar plantation. Who do you think was working in those sugar fields?
The money from the plantation was just about to run dry when Louis took over as executor of his dad’s will, 5 years prior to meeting Lestat. Also, the du Lac’s have black servants in the show. To me, it’s just a continuation of what they were used to having when they owned the plantation. I’m sure they treat those black servants nice. Book Louis (who was white) thought the same way.
No!