When Louis calls it a “gift” he literally says what he means: the dark gift allowed him to stay alive, see the change in the world and even have a normal business. He now can exist as an openly gay Black man even though it’s still not easy.
Yes it didn't happen how Lestat expected it but he unknowingly gave Louis the gift of time. Louis is objectively more free as a black gay man in present day than he would have ever been in his natural lifetime. It's why I think he's embraced his vampirism much sooner than in the books - it prob helps also that in the present day there are "ethical" ways of drinking human blood. In the book Louis really only embraces vampirism towards the end of the series, so it'll be very interesting to see how a Louis who is more sure in himself will impact the plot moving forward! And I know some people have argued it's a sudden turn but really it was a gigantic change he was made aware of in the last episode - it changes everything. All this time he has believed that Lestat came to Paris to kill him and Claudia, so him becoming a vampire would always lead to Claudia's death and Lestat trying to kill him. And he loves Lestat so that must have been even more painful, and on top of that he's stuck with a man who bores him that he's staying with out of spite. That none of this was true/needed is SUCH a weight lifted off his shoulders. He still has guilt over the part he played in Claudia's fate (and other things) but compared to what he was going through earlier it must be such a relief. And now he can finally see a future before him and recognise his continued existence for the gift that it is.
Such an interesting discussion! I love your podcasts. And I've noticed that in both Season 1 and Season 2, rainwater is used as a way to wash away b.s. subterfuge and expose the truth. Jonas and Louis have their private moment in the rain, not knowing that jealous Lestat is watching, but Lestat's muddy boots later disclose to Louis that he, Lestat, was there. Claudia buries her victims in shallow earth, and when the heavy rains come the bodies rise to the surface to reveal what she did. Louis swims the river to reach Lestat in Season 1, as you pointed out, and in Season 2 he returns to Lestat during an especially bad hurricane. Objective truth is brought to light in all these "wet" scenes!
I saw an old interview clip of Ann Rice saying how she base Louis on herself. That Louis is essentially her and how she relates so much to him. Lestat, she said, was a character that ended up surprising her with how he fascinated her and how she really loves that character.
"Follow the bouncing ball" felt like Claudia daring the audience. They happily went along with tormenting them through out the trial and she was daring them to see it thru, to sing along and be complicit in their death.
Regarding Armand and why he betrayed Louis in Paris, I think it came down to his commitment issues with Louis and the coven. He struggled to decide who he’d stay with and ultimately sided with the coven because of his survival instincts AND not wanting to be alone. If Lestat didn’t save Louis, Armand probably would’ve let Louis die 😭
Armand has a lot of history with that coven and Lestat and what he did. I think that episode was slept on in many ways with Armand’s telling. He def did ALOT of retelling that telling
I believe that the overarching theme of this show, among many others, is that we are all unreliable narrators of our own stories. The saying "there are three sides to every story: your side, my side, and the truth" has never been more relevant. It's a reflection of real life. When a relationship breaks down, we often cast ourselves as the victim and the other person as the villain, sometimes without any malicious intent. We tell stories based on how we feel, and as adults, we should understand by now that just because we feel a certain way doesn’t make it true. This show is absolutely brilliant! I could go on forever about it. I love the fandom and would love to engage more with you all to unpack and analyze the characters!
16:46 there's a lot of layers to Armand's motivations. We barely get to see the real armand this season imo because he's always acting around Louis (in dubai) and in the story the version of armand we get to see is the one he curated to fit the narrative he wanted to tell. We see armand only in glimpses, like in ep 5 in San Fran and here and there when he is provoked or emotional. But when you think about it to him Louis was supposed to be a way of out of his monotony with the coven and also a connection to Lestat because idk if you caught it but armand is absolutely obssesed with Lestat just as much as Louis is but in a very different way. And of course when he realizes in Paris that Louis's feelings for Lestat and his disregard for the Laws the he cherishes so much (Santiago warned claudia about it ) were going to be a constant source of conflict for them he was like well f*ck it I need to cut him out and I need to do it in a way that will hurt Lestat deeply. Imo He only decided to go back with Louis because 1)he came to the belated realization that the coven was no longer what he wanted and he didn't want to have to endure eternity alone 2) there mightve have been a confrontation with lestat after the facts and before he pulled Louis out the wall that we didn't see. Also keep in mind Armand enjoys playing games and when he gets bored he gets creative. Idk if yall noticed the parallels between Claudia's play and what happened with Paul and the way he was looking at Louis when it was being performed. Or what he did with the photo albums for Paris. He loves playing these crazy ass games and loves to see where they take him. He very much is a twisted motherf*cker with lots of mental issues but the kicker is I love him too 😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭 I'm one of those girlies that loves Lestat and Armand and Louis. I love all the characters even the terrible ones. Also keep in mind that Armand's upbringing is why he does what he does he finds it more comfortable to act like the weaker party and manipulate perception in order to get what he wants. It feels safer for him that way. It's fascinating
Excellent comment. Armand is obsessed with Lestat, and he hates that he that he loves him as much as he hates him. Their interactions tickle me so much. I can’t wait for season 3. Lestat is my fave, but I love me some Louis too and I’m very fond of the gremlin.
Oh wow! So basically Armand is on some squid games shit, he’s so old and rich he just creates chaos and violence for fun. Also I’ve been trying to figure out this whole time why he would let the coven kill Louis after acting so in love with him and your comment rly brought it altogether for me. Armand wanted to kill Louis IN FRONT OF Lestat to get back at him for leaving him. That’s wild. And I definitely think there had to have been a conversation with Lestat and Armand when Lestat came back to Paris and/or after they killed Claudia like you said. I still can’t figure out why Armand ended up saving Louis from the wall coffin tho… is it just more of his games? Does he REALLY care about Louis or is everything rly just about getting back at Lestat? You’ve got me thinking so many questions now lol
@SaintJawn that last part is kinda unclear to me too. But I have theories based on some context clues. Like he grew bored of of the coven and decided to take Louis out the wall to destroy it you know the way he led Lestat back to his coven to destroy it back in the day. If you go back and watch ep 4 when they are in the restaurant watch the body language while he's being told the stuff that's going on in the coven he's annoyed, he's bored and again in ep 6 before he lets Santiago take them in the restaurant when Claudia asked him how he's enjoying her coffin and he brings up all the things he doesn't miss about being with them. We do get kernels of truth out of him it's not the full truth. So I think he grew bored of the coven and decided to pull Louis out to destroy it he also knows that Louis can't hurt him either way, he's super powerful afterall. And also I think whatever he notices of Lestat after the trial push him to free Louis too which is why he also was somewhat confident that Lestat wasn't gonna expose him when he takes Louis to see him in Magnus' Lair. That part is still a little unclear as to exactly what that conversation was cuz we weren't shown much but yeah that's my theory
I think what Louis meant was that Lestat gave him the opportunity to live in a time where he is more accepted and give him time to learn to love himself fully and honestly. It took him a long time to get there given armands influence and how armand was shaping louis into his perfect companion but once louis broke free from armands spell he was able to see that lestat was trying to allow him to grow organically into who he is meant to be. He has been telling him since episode 1 “be all the beautiful things you are and be them without apology” i think its only now that louis is finally ready to do that and love not just who he was as a human but who he can be as a vampire. That strong vampire potential that Lestat saw in him is ready to come out. He wouldn't have been able to be those things without the dark “gift”.
17:40 a core element of armand's manipulation technique (with louis at least, he changes it up depending on the person) is to present himself a the sheep or the lamb, he makes himself appear frail and harmless, servile, so louis falls into this feeling of having power over him when in reality every single thing that louis does to (and/or) with armand is because armand allows it. armand knows he is the strongest vampire in most of the rooms he enters and he knew he was the strongest vampire in his coven, he's been able to mind-control them in the past with ease
You mentioned the use of water in the series and how it correlated to the water during the hurricane scene where Louis and Lestat are reunited. Claudia and her demise are a major part of that conversation. The hurricane going on at that moment is symbolic of the “Stormy romance between you two!” that Claudia exclaimed during the trial. In that final scene when the shutters of the house implode, it could’ve been the spirit of Claudia-who referred to herself as a shingle on the roof-releasing her fury for the part Louis and Lestat played in her death. In the very least, I think the implosion and the debris/shingles being tossed about are a metaphor for Claudia.
I moved to New Orleans after the movie of IWTV, and it was lovely. I got to attend the Lestat ball at the orphanage and buy many of the books from the Rink. The TV shows is beyond awesome - my only problem is - like many other shows adapted from books - how the readers get mad/upset with the aging up of characters... Like really - you want to see a 5 year old play an 80 year old woman - while perpetually looking 5... Aside, from that I'm glad this telling of this story is more inclusive and sensitive to the viewers by not taking us to the original time in the book ...
21:29 Armand made louis feel inferior, i.e., when Armand mocked louis' passions in s2ep6 "A vampire w/hobbies" code switching is DEF the feel I get💯💯✨️
I also found the water observation interesting, but the most striking nature metaphor in these last two episodes is Lestat being called a hurricane by Armand ("there's no scripting a hurricane") and then Louis going headfirst coffin advance-shipped into the middle of a hurricane and signing the liability waiver. And them hugging in the middle of it all while the rest of the house breaks down. Which could also be a callback to Claudia saying she was just a shingle that flew off from their roof. The show isn't very subtle with what they want to tell. I also think with regards to vampirism being called a gift, i feel like what Louis says in passing in the last episode ties into it: how he thought of ways how it could end up differently--be a man in the different suit, steal the candy from the barber. But he says he would still end up kissing Lestat on the altar, and he would still not burn Lestat when Claudia suggests they burn him, ending with Claudia being dead. Because Louis's love for Lestat is tied with the gift of vampirism and an allegory for his repressed homosexuality. And part of his arc is coming to terms with his agency and his culpability and the most unpleasant parts of his memory, including him craving that love and that gift that it took him a century--well more than a human lifetime--to accept, something he would not have the ability to if not for vampirism. That's why he thanks Lestat for the nights ahead where he might try to live honestly.
My personal theory is that Armand downplays his past relationship with Lestat a ton, but would actually get back together with him in a heartbeat given the opportunity. He desperately grasps for love from the people least willing to give it to him and schemes his way into their lives. The thing that attracts him to Louis is similar to the thing that attracts him to Lestat, this upheaval, chaos in his well-ordered life, thier inability to follow the rules he has set for himself. He welcomes that loss of control, but its impossible for him to remain in that state; he needs to gain control back. I think the trial/play was an opportunity for him to break up Louis and Lestat, to dissolve their bond by having Lestat do irredeemable things to Louis, so that one of the two would come back to Armand in the end. I think he was willing to take either of them in the fallout, but was probably thinking it would be Lestat left alone for him to get back in with it. He constantly uses them to hurt each other (thinking of that scene in ep5) because he wants to dissolve their ties so he can be the main priority to either of them. I dont think he notes the hypocrisy of this and how he also carries baggage from past relationships into each of his own, i.e. casting all his partners in the role of Marius so he can play Amadeo again. I honestly feel like he did not turn Daniel out of spite at the end (spite is more Louis' thing imho), but out of this desperate grasping to have anyone stay attached to him. Louis is his consolation prize in the fallout of the trial, Daniel may be his consolation prize in the fallout of this relationship. A bond between maker and fledging cant be broken. But thats just my theories on it lol and we'll have to see what happens.
i saw a tweet that basically said armand was probably willing to let louis die along with claudia because (in his mind) lestat could be free to be with him. and i can see it. i do think we'll get more insight on that trial in s3 as well.
@@haje7096I think he wanted to punish Lestat for the same reason he wanted to punish Louis. Slight (?) book spoilers but, Armand had a much more proactive role in his relationship with Lestat, he wasn’t just seduced and abandoned. He *did* unspeakable things to Lestat in order to get him to stay and it doesn’t work. He’s angry.
I also feel it was more than spite Armand seems to show fascination for Daniel. Ever since the room when he saved his life. Armand is attracted to those who operate outside of the norm, as Lestat and Louis both did, Daniel definitely does that. Even as human Daniel isn’t shy about telling Armand to shut up even though he is a 500 something year old powerful vampire and we do know Armand loves to dominated. So yes I think he is intrigued.
Glad yall are finally caught up, now yall have to suffer with the rest of us, when S3 drops, week by week episodes. Welcome to the fandom!!!!!!!!!!!! (distant hugs) We're all a vampire coven now!
12:25 this circles back to episode 2 of the season 2 when we are first introduced to Santiago and he tells them you are all complicit. They are all complicit.
About Armand motivation…there’s a video essay on UA-cam called “exploring the complexity of interview with the Vampire “ from creator “Serieable” that explains it better than I could ever. I’ve read 6 of the book and I’ve always find Armand character difficult to grasp and I love Armand tv version way more than the book version… in the essay Serieable says that Armand motivation comes from how trauma and eternal life have shaped his concept of time and interpersonal relationships, it really interesting video, I always recommend it because it made me understand Armand better after all these years. Anyway great video I discovered your podcast because of iwtv and I will definitely continue to fallow because your comments are insightful and you made me reflect on certain aspects of the show more deeply. Thank you!❤
ahhh i’m so happy you guys are finally caught up! i think everyone who watched this show, specifically season two, would also agree that it is the best show on television right now. nothing else really comes close. in regards to your analysis on weather/water not being able to stop louis and lestat from reuniting, i think the scene that showed this was when louis was checking into the hotel and the guy at the front desk asks him to fill out a waiver for the hurricane and he signs it with a smile. the hurricane is lestat and louis filling out that form was him signing himself up for a second chance with lestat knowing the risk that comes with it. idk something about that is so beautiful to me. also i’m surprised yall didn’t talk about daniel more. a lot of fans gloss over it, but him continuing to publish the book after louis purposefully lit his laptop on fire to prevent it did not sit right with me. it’s clear that louis did not want that book released after learning how armand skewed his memories and experiences, and specifically how lestat is portrayed in it. daniel ignoring that and publishing it anyway was definitely…a choice.
Armand lied about saving Louis, but he told the truth about starting his betrayal the night of Madeline's transformation. Louis met Armand and asked him to witness what could be something beautiful. Louis came in close, touching, loving and passionate about his ask. But as soon as Armand said, "Are you asking me or making me", Louis' whole demeanor went cold. He responded, "That's okay" and kissed him but, as Louis would say in future San Francisco, it was "a 'fine' that doesn't sound like 'fine'." That must have terrified Armand. He won't create anyone because he finds it disgusting but he'll lose the coven completely if he lets Louis turn another human. After all, Armand put Santiago's maker in the crypt for creating Santiago without Maître's permission. How would he get away with giving this rogue vampire permission to create? He weighed Louis' conditional love against the coven's certain endurance, and he chose. Armand did learn one big thing from that night. In '73 when he reeeeeeally wanted to kill Daniel and Louis stopped him, Armand said, "Are you asking me..?" He knew Louis was talking to Arun the slave, and that Arun will never say no to Maître again.
Agree except Armand says no to maître constantly. Submission to Louis was only ever just an illusion Armand perpetrated to be comfortable but it was never the truth.
@@anarudiazI don't perceive Armand as saying no, exactly. I actually believe Mr. "I-will-never-harm-you" does his evil, then reshapes Louis' memories. They're both passive-aggressive, but Armand is as emotionally weak as he is physically powerful. Slipping famous Fred Stein pictures into Louis' photography portfolio, then hinting Louis is insane and might have put them in there himself, is more Armand's mind-bending modus operandi. It's no wonder Louis got freaked out enough about all the holes in his memory to call Daniel Molloy to Dubai.
@@tdali8347 you’re right in that he doesn’t “say no.” I made myself unclear. What I meant by that was, Armand is not actually the submissive he playacts to be. If Louis is not acting the way Armand wants him to act, he will manipulate him or events in order to get the desired effects. So we agree completely.
I've really enjoyed hearing your thoughts on this season! So when it comes to Armand and his motivations this episode, I had a thought during your episode six conversation that I needed to hold back until you'd seen the full season. Now that you have, here's what I'd been thinking: In the episode six conversation, Adrian pointed out that Armand said to Louis, "Are you asking or are you making me?" (about turning Madeleine) and thought that Louis was annoyed about Armand bringing it up because it brought up the shame of their D/s dynamic. That wasn't how I saw that scene though. Basically, if you rewatch that scene, Louis is asking Armand to be part of an experience he's trying to make meaningful, turning Madeleine. Armand doesn't want to do it, mostly because he's holding onto outdated coven rules, and Louis is communicating that he's going to do it anyway, with some determination but overall very gently. Armand tries to bring their D/s dynamic into the situation and Louis backs off immediately because he wants participating to be something Armand chooses to do freely, not because it's part of some game between the two of them. But unfortunately, Armand sees Louis declining to participate as a rejection of him and we learn in the season finale that he started plotting against Louis and Claudia right away after that. Ester asked what Armand's motivation was and if it was that he was angry. I'd say it was that he felt rejected by Louis, which is worse than pure anger because there's hurt behind it too. Armand is a really damaged character and I hope we get to learn more about him in future seasons of the show.
just a note though its not outdated coven rules, its very much a personal rule he’s set for himself. even in dubai he mentioned being repulsed at the idea of turning someone. (he did turn daniel at the end of the season but there’s a lot of backstory behind why which the show hasn’t gone into yet)
Damn, when it comes to Armand you’re right about him, he is the strongest vampire we’ve met in the show so far, but he is stunted emotionally and plays submissive in a manipulative way that I suspect comes from his human experience as a slave, people refer to him as the devil’s minion and knowing some things from the next book (the vampire lestât) he more than deserves that title. He’s very strong, manipulative and genuinely insecure that’s a dangerous combo that makes him very volatile but in like in a more quiet way. I still love him though😅
No spoilers but Armand isn’t the Devil’s Minion 😅 he’s the devil and the minion is uh…someone else lmao “I am the Devil’s minion and he grants my every wish.” Was said about Armand not *by* Armand.
Armand is a 500 year old vampire even more powerful than Lestat. In this season he froze an entire restaurant full of vampires and people. He can read minds with much more ease than anybody. He was in no danger of getting killed by his coven. That means he saw Louis didn't love him enough, and decided he had to die. And that also meant rewiring his brain and mindfucking him every so often times in that 77 years they were together. This becomes evident after so many rewatches. And about his motivations, this ties back to Lestat. Do you think a guy who has had a one-sided obsession for like, a decade about Lestat would be truthful about him? Or would be normal about Lestat's newest lover and child and fledglings?
Loved watching you react to my favorite show. And even though Armand is my favorite because he's just so pathetic I love people having negative reactions to him. I hope you'll post a reaction to the season 3 teaser from SDCC.
Remember though: what happened on stage after Louis was dragged off stage, is now being told from Armand, who is lying. So Claudia going out singing one of their stupid songs just doesn’t sound like something she would do. That was b.s.
Love that you guys still keep in mind that literally everyone's retelling is biased in their favor 😅 (or in Claudia's case in Daddy Lou's). I love your take on Louis' pov being adopted from Claudia's diaries ! I think that plus Lestat's perceived betrayal of Louis in Paris is what skewed his retelling of NOLA events etc Its understandable that Lestat's actions in that light would appear more sinister and intentionally manipulative because Louis is remembering it all with the pain of knowing that Lestat came to the trial to have them killed. Ultimately none of them are blameless. They have hurt each other so much (and yes. Even post 2x07 and 2x08, the ep 5 drop is still inexcusable and Lestat agrees but its up to Louis to decide if 70 years later its forgivable 😅). But the love is very much still there. Really enjoyed watching your episode breakdowns ! Praying for a late 2025 release of season 3 !
I felt like a lot of what was said in the play was still lies tho bcuz Lestat goes off script several times and actually takes accountability for the abuse he inflicted on Louis. I think the part about Louis pursuing Lestat was one of those lies to paint him as the bad guy in the trial. It doesn’t make any sense for that part to be true. I think a lot of their story was rewritten by Santiago and Armand in the play and that’s why Lestat goes off script and says no that’s not true. I think the part about Louis making him turn Claudia was the truth. I think Armand is public enemy number 1 tho 😂
At least in the books, Armand’s motivation in the trial, I believe, was always revenge or a hurt ego from Lestat. He’s always had this love/hate thing with Lestat, and before Lestat left France, Armand begged him to stay and love him and be with him. I think Lestat leaving really made him angry which is why he did what he did to Nicky and Louis. I do think Armand loved Louis, but I don’t think they were ever in love. Then when that didn’t work he wanted to go back to Lestat lol.
To me armand situation is really simple, Sophie's choice, from his perspective it's a difficult moment, choosing between the coven of "several lifetimes" or a person he was falling in love with, but it had to be done, kill both and move on as he always did in his 500 years of life... being part of everything it's just another step. I think their immortality is the key to understanding Armand's behavior. just another event that passes in his tragic existence!
armand's special brand of psychological abuse is tied into him being a religious fanatic. he's always looking for something or someone to worship. so he devotes himself to upholding the great laws. but there's an egotistical part of him that just likes being in control of other vampires. so he punishes those who won't submit to him, all while acting like he didn't have a choice. despite being well over 400 years old by the time he enters the story. so when lestat showed up prancing and carrying on to entertain a bunch of humans, armand's first thought was "how do i control this one?". the more lestat resisted, the more armand pursued. he even kidnapped and tortured nicki to lure in lestat and it still didn't get him the control he wanted. plus it cost him his whole coven! which i think left him angrier than he lets on while talking to daniel in 2x03. by the time the "trial" is happening, armand is still obsessed with upholding the great laws. and he's lowkey obsessed with lestat. so he uses punishing claudia and louis as a way to both punish lestat for his past 'insolence' and more vulnerable to giving in to armand.
Armand’s active participation can be seen a few ways. He wanted to punish Louis and Claudia for violating the Great Laws or he wanted to punish Lestat by killing their maker and making a fledgling without permission; or the only way he could keep the coven was to sacrifice them and in the end, the coven was the most important thing. He had choices.
I also saw a TikTok of someone saying that when Claudia said “this isn’t a trail it’s a stoning” they should’ve changed it to it was a lynching because it would bring attention to how this white coven is orchestrating the execution of these two black vampires while ignoring the laws that lestat broke and giving Madeline a chance to save herself but condemning Louis and Claudia
About Armand (love discussing him lol), The problem with his role in the trial was that we don’t know enough from his perspective and what got him to agree to directing the play, if there were changes made by the coven separately afterwards, etc. because the season kind of ends with the reveal we’re left with this image of Armand as the “mastermind” behind everything and i think we’ll get more nuance on that later. Personally, maybe i’m assuming the best out of Armand bc i really understand him + being south asian + having context for a lot of the things in his backstory, but I do believe while he directed the play out of spite for louis and lestat’s relationship i doubt that he was the one who arranged it to be as cruel as it actually ended up being, and i think he’s very susceptible to “submitting” to others when asked, and there must’ve been a truth to the lie he told louis earlier about himself feeling forced to take the coven’s side and himself believing that he couldn’t prevent the trial. I think that’s part of his weakness which you brought up! I think Armand is mentally very weak and he’s aware of this so he retorts to mental manipulation as a way to keep himself safe. He also has a very weird relationship with vampirism and is very strict with the rules he places on himself about his vampiric nature (this will be explored further with him and daniel), and to me it comes off as the fact that 1. he never escaped the mindset he’s been in from when he was a victim of sex trafficking and abuse (becomes dangerous when he actually does have power, and refuses to accept accountability) and 2. he’s limits himself for various reasons but one of which i believe is that he doesn’t want to become an abuser himself, the very concept of vampires as predatory creatures conflict with the other side of his nature (also dangerous because he’s not putting his power to good use he’s just standing by and letting things happen) and because he tries to fight back against his own nature so much it ends up with him becoming explosive in bad ways like with the trial and san francisco. but yeah! that’s how i understand him I think. I might be completely wrong though but this is what makes most sense to me. i can’t wrap my head around him being enthusiastic about the trial, and the motivations appear minimal.
I knew ya’ll wouldn’t be able to resist watching the rest.😂 AMC actually released a Teaser for season 3 during SD ComicCon, y’all should definitely watch that. Armand is a creature of habit and he’s spent most of his life in service to someone. His comfort zone is being a sub in a relationship. Louis uncertainty and constantly obsessing over Lestat is what I think made him align with the coven for the Trial. I think he partly did the play to break Louis and Lestat but mostly to punish Lestat for not choosing him. Louis and Armand stayed with each other for 70 plus years to spite Lestat over a lie. I think Louis thanked Lestat because he was reluctant to a lot that Lestat had to offer him. Thinking about it from a queer context I’m like if I was forced out the closet early in a volatile time would I be respective learning everything there is to know about queerness at that time as I do now? Probably not. I think Louis always associated his Vampirism with loss so to him there was no benefits but Lestat who has suffered loss too chooses to see the world differently regardless of the negative. Season 3 should be crazy because it will be from Lestat’s perspective and cover more lore. If we’re following book lore Louis and Lestat should have some reconciliation by the end before we enter the Queen of the Damned arc which I’m most excited for.
a possible problem with the claudia's last moments is that we only hear it from armand... the director of the trial... did claudia really sing the song or is armand lying?
Thought: Louis has to leave Daniel with Armand for a bit after the fight? What does Louis need to leave the house for when you just had the prime Minister's doctor pay Daniel a home visit? Daniel learns all the trials and tribulations of being a vampire while eating 7 course meals consisting of some of Daniel's favorite foods that were listed in his book. What a Madeline thing for Louis to do. 😊 Armand didn't turn Daniel out of spike, he turned him as punishment. Why else would Armand risk digesting chemotherapy ridden blood? What does that do to a 500+yr old vampire?
Have you guys tried the show EVIL? The first couple of seasons are on Netflix, and the rest are on Paramount. Im finishing up now, and it's quite interesting.
Lestat was still really weakened when he came to Paris. Which is why he couldn’t save both Louis and Claudia. Armand wanted to be rid of the coven but passively. Like he did with Lestat with the original coven.
I never thought Lestat's telling during the trial of how Louis pursued him was true. I always thought Lestat told it this way because he was instructed to do so by Armand as the play's director but also Lestat was still angry with Louis and wanted to get back at him. Louis denies it and I believed Louis in that moment. I think this is one of the more honest aspects of Louis and Lestat's relationship is that Lestat did pursue Louis in all of his passionate glory. We all know these vampires are enchanted with magical but tragic Louis. The power dynamic between the two supports this. Louis isn't even at his foundation the character that would pursue a master vampire, a white vampire at that, in the way you think Lestat seems to suggest. So yes, he's lying when he recounts this during the trial.
Armand was able to change Louis memories as was shown in the earlier episode where both Daniel and Louis realized they each were manipulated both with their memories and worse in Daniel's case his whole life after San Francisco was created by Armand's tricks.. Is it any wonder it was Armand who perhaps to atone for his actions turned Daniel. Armand if you remember was created very young in comparison to the others so his maturity got stuck as that of a selfish petulant teenager or young adult who just wants what he wants and everyone else be damned.
Jacob Anderson was talking about Lestat in that interview lol, not Armand. Armand wanted both of them dead. If you rewatch episode 7, you can see Lestat swaying back and forth, you can see bruises on his wrists and hands. Also if you notice, Lestat looks beautiful episode 7, but episode 8 when Daniel helps reveal the truth, you can see that Lestat’s face has deep eye bruises. There are clues that the majority of the audience didn’t catch because Louis didn’t catch them. On Anne Rice, yes Claudia is based on her daughter, Louis was based on herself, and Lestat was based on her husband (& the obsession and toxicity is also based on their irl relationship after losing their daughter). Anne admitted this herself in interviews. Louis calls it a gift because of the opportunity that eternity gives you to change and live honestly without shame. Something Louis has never been able to do. As a human he would have died repressed, miserable, and in the closet. Now he has the chance to self-actualize, he has the time and is ready for it. Btw my little theory about that fight that Louis & Armand had and then magically was resolved next episode is because I think Armand has been tweaking Louis’ memories. I don’t think he does it after every argument, but I think he does it when Louis is getting too close to the truth. This is also why I don’t believe Louis asked Armand to erase his memory after San Francisco. In season 1, Claudia said, “we leave the damage so we never forget the damage.” And that’s what Louis has always done, he lives in the damage tbh. One last thing, you guys never mentioned Daniel! What are your thoughts on what happened to him? Lol I hope y’all watch the s3 teaser and talk about it next time😊. I’ve loved listening to you both discuss this show. As a book reader, I also can’t wait to see you guys take in S3 which is an adaptation of The Vampire Lestat. That book is arguably the best in the whole series.
ok, so now that ur all caught up. I could tell u to go watch that fun season 3 teaser that was released during comic con. however, imma just be THAT person and say you should read The Vampire Lestat. the second book in the series and the one that is going to be adapted next season. Lestat really does feel like a complete new person in that series, and it's because Anne Rice fell in love with Lestat, and he essentially becomes the MC in 9 out the 13 books. other than that, what can I really say that u haven't said already. Lestat, Louis, and Armand ALL have hand in Claudia's demise. and it sad to say but if she didn't die here she would've died eventually some other way because from what we heard from the vampires though floating out there in that finale, lestat was right, the vampire out in the world are vicious but it makes sense since they are Apex predators. as for Armand. it does feel that what he does is so irredeemable, but somehow that vamp has won me over (I blame Lestat in the novels for that. bc even when he doesnt like someone he cant help but point how how hot and sad they are 😂). I don't hate Armand. I just pity him. I do believe Armand if he really wanted to he could've overpowered the coven and Louis in the present-day confrontation, but I think he isn't emotionally/mentally stable enough to do it. like Armand himself said, "Why is it that the ones with the most power are often the weakest" overall, after season 2, I came out really side eyeing Louis a lot more. like yeah what happen to him in that abusive relationship with Lestat was horrible but there many things he avoided taking accountability for and that really irked me. as for claudia, I really didn't like her in both the movie and the novel and the show really made me champion for this tragic character. her and Madeline deserve to go live off together. in my headcanon they are still out there. 😢
also one thing I want to point out is. I see Armand as a vampire who is constantly trying to find a purpose for his existence and therefore one reason why he betrays Louis and Co is because he is looking at it in a "what is the higher probability of me getting out of this alive and still having something to live for?" maybe he knew that he could fight off these vamps but a.) he's not confident enough to think he can do it and b.) he gonna take the path that seems that he doesn't have to do most of the work. idk if that makes sense. like he's an opptunist in a way and even if he miserable with the coven that still would've put up with it because at least he servitude to someone or something. this is why am so interested in seeming his more religious side. he is the only vamp so far that I know who believes in a God. anne rice really used him to explore her own conflicts with religion
I LOVE My brilliant friend! I’ve been watching it since it first came out and it’s one of my favorite show along with IWTV! Also, I never really comment on posts ….but I never hear people talk about that show, and so I got excited when I saw it mentioned 😂
@@ryannwatkins7612 Aha me too it’s so good and so underrated! I rarely comment too but love the way these guys dissect characters and motivations and Lila and Lenu are ripe for that!
@@TheFloralP. Right! I dissect Lenu and Lila in my head for hours after the episodes 😂. Every episode I go back and forth with myself about which one is the actual worst friend 😂. They drive me crazy with some of their decisions, but I love them and I just want them both to be happy! And their relationships with the men in their life is so so interesting
15:50 what do you mean?? obviously armand had enough power to save both of them (he's the most powerful- he could knock out every single vampire in the coven (restaurant scene)) moreover, i believe armand chose the coven bc of claudia / armand and louis' relationship with claudia in the picture, wasn't enough. after claudia was dealth with armand knew he could finally have louis all to himself and he began buildinging his cage of empathy
The reason I said to stop covering two episodes at a time, it was too hard not to Give away Spoilers haha. You guys would say something then I had to bite my tongue so hard not to comment, especially with Armond and Lestat. I've watched it a few times now and I still cry, especially over poor sweet Claudia. She finally found happiness and someone to love, only to die in the end. As far as I see it, she was the only innocent one, out of them all. Yes, she was a monster, but she had to be, she was raised as one, and then was punished for it.
To be fair, she was punished for breaking The Great Laws. It was attempting to kill her maker/coven leader, killing the vamp tramp, and writing about vampires. Claudia being a monster was a positive in the eyes of the coven.
I’ve rewatched a few episodes after watching your videos(love them btw) but one thing I keep struggling to understand is, why was Santiago and the coven so determined to k**lClaudia specifically. They were targeting her way before finding out about Lestat despite her being so fascinated and kind initially. Like why was Armand so quick to back them up on that.
My understanding of armands investment in the play is because armand doesnt have an identity. He needs someone like louis or like the coven to define him as a person and he dedicates himself entirely to it even if it causes him pain. He shows his love through service and suffering for the sake of the other person. He leans into his identity as a director since he cannot lean into his love of louis because louis relationship with claudia will always be a danger and burden to armand. I think as a director he was romanticizing their tragic love story that could never be. if he cannot be louis’ lover he will be the best damn director to ever suffer for his art. He makes this tragedy part of his body of work and his identity just like he does with his other relationships with people/other vampires. His sacrifice is proof of how remorseful he is to the coven.
She is the only one that doesn't get an apology, lestat can cry and say sorry to Louis but she had hands put on her and yet still gets punished throughout. To be fair, Armand way of going about it is a very human trait. I would say that you should probably go back and listen to him while he speaks.
The truth is that they both manipulated each other in their own way. Louis withholds from Lestat...but that could be because of how he grew up. essentially, he had to hide all of himself from the whores, from the white businessmen, from his whole family. He was never truly himself. So it would make sense that he would also compartmentalize to hide part of himself from Lestat. And what little power he had over Lestat he would try to exercise even though there was an imbalance of power. At the same time, Lestat's love was toxic. He demanded all of Louis's attention even though he felt that he could give his affection to multiple people. He withheld the truth from Louis and Claudia. Lestat was withholding as well. They were not their best selves with each other. It was all around toxic.
Armand is a slave to rules and dogma, he doesn’t have his own beliefs, just rules to follow and enforce. He has been enforcing the great laws for over two hundred years, so the idea that he would suddenly change and take a different path when Lestat or Louis shows up, just doesn’t ring true. Armand doesn’t really change, it’s his biggest problem. Even when he was with Louis, he still has rules, and he brainwashed Louis so that his rules are adhered to.
Both Lestat and Armand are kind of similar when it comes to love. They both suffer from abandonment issues, needing to be loved, and needing Louis to love them the way they want to. However, their approach on how to solve Louis reciprocating their love is different. With Lestat you have perfectly understood his mentality of “If I can't have you, no one can". He views Louis as his possession, his creation, his great love who he doesn't want to share to the point he gets jealous of the attention Louis gives to their daughter. We understand that he cannot stand the thought of Louis leaving him and not loving him, so his choice is to hurt him in retaliation. “Because how dare Louis?” I mean he did admit he wanted to own Louis. With Armand, I read his mentality as “I am afraid of you abandoning me the way others already did, so I will abandon you (read destroy you) before you do”. Armand was enthralled by Louis, this young vampire who seemed to not conform to any rules, the opposite of what Armand has been doing all his life with the coven. However he started to doubt Louis' love and commitment to him, especially after Madeleine's turning, which was something Armand was completely against. And those doubts paralleled his past trauma and the people who he loved who abandoned him (his family,, Lestat, his maker..). My point is that he didn't want to go through that trauma again so he chose safety aka the coven over love (even when we know he hates being a coven leader). Regarding the dynamic between Louis and Lestat it is ok to say it was abusive because it was. The writers wrote both relationships with Lestat and then Armand as such. The new revelations we got during the trial do not change the power imbalance both Lestat and Armand had over Louis and the need they had to control him. Lestat was a rich white vampire in Jim Crow, Armand was an ancient vampire leader of a coven of dozens, both stalked and read Louis' mind to get information on him before approaching him, both are more powerful and much older than Louis, Lestat selectively chose what knowledge he would share with Louis and Claudia to keep them close to him. Armand had the power to wipe minds and he did use that power on Louis to not further strain their relationship, Louis asked Armand? Well, are we sure now after the finale? Lestat did beat up Louis and choked Claudia. Lestat did cheat on Louis for the duration of their marriage: this hasn't changed. So yeah those were abusive relationships. I do encourage you guys to watch the first season or both seasons again. Because now you will watch it knowing that Louis is doing this interview thinking that Lestat was an active participant in their daughter's death. And you will notice that Louis is still kinda kind to Lestat in his retelling. And also with the knowledge that Louis doesn't know the full extent of Armand's hand in the trial other than Armand cowardly selling them out to save his own skin. And you will notice Louis jabs of resentment/passive aggressiveness towards Armand that weren't so flagrant when you first watched the show.. Last point regarding Louis seeing being a vampire as a gift and no longer a curse. I'm with you on the bafflement. I think it was rushed by the writers for lack of time. Because we didn't see what triggered Louis to change his view on the dark gift, we didn't see how he came to this conclusion. And I would have loved to watch that journey.
Thank y’all so much for sharing your thoughts. You’re some of my favorite creators because y’all are so thoughtful. I would like to point out a few things now things that y’all mentioned. 1) The version of the fight, Louis and lestat’s courting period, and Claudia’s turning in 2x7 are not really lestat’s version of events. We know that the trial is being scripted and directed in order to make Louis and Claudia look guilty. So the version of Louis we see there isn’t really how lestat sees/ saw him; it how the coven wanted him to look. Louis thinks that’s lestat’s version of events because at the time he thinks Lestat wanted him and Claudia dead and played an active role in orchestrating the trial. 2) Y’all kinda allude to the fact that the reason Claudia and Louis aren’t given the grace to apologize and move on is because they’re black and I think that’s right. If you really analyze the trial it starts to look like a lynching real quick. From the anti black stereotypes they use against Louis to the cutting of the ankles (something enslavers used to do to slaves). 3) Overall, I still think Louis and lestat’s relationship was abusive (and mutual abuse isn’t a thing), because lestat still had significant power over Louis and Claudia, continuously cheated on Louis, and used his greater power and wisdom to control them; which is corroborated by Claudia’s diaries. That being said, I do feel like I understand why Lestat acted the way he did and I’m excited to see his arc and backstory even thought it doesn’t justify the abuse. 4) I think Louis is thanking lestat for a second lease on life. Lestat thought by turning Louis he was giving him the power to be his authentic self but he failed to consider the racial politics of the time and Louis’ personal trauma. Because so much time has passed, Louis now lives in a world and is in a place mentally where he can take advantage of vampirism to be his authentic self. Again, thank y’all so much for sharing your journey with this show with us. Wishing y’all well.
I agree with you except point 1. He was scripted but you can tell when Lestat is telling the truth (Tbf in his pov), because Santiago and the rest get irritated or angry with him. I do believe he was telling the truth about Claudia’s turning and their fight in NOLA.
@@anarudiaz I see what you mean, but we don’t see them getting irritated at him for the specifics of the fight or Claudia’s turning. It’s only when he tries to take accountability like when he says he should be sentenced along Claudia and Louis. To be fair, I don’t think lestat is lying of his own free will, but I do think the trial was meant to deliberately highlight Louis and Claudia’s faults. Why would the coven be upset at Lestat for highlighting those faults in his story when that’s the whole point of the trial?
@@aliyahmckoy9154 looking back you’re correct. And obviously the turning is very different in the books, but there is book evidence that’s convinced me to the fact that Lestat is being honest. When it comes to Claudia and her turning, there’s a lot of mirroring Lestat’s second fledgling (vague for spoiler reasons). That sealed the deal for me.
@@anarudiaz That’s interesting. I haven’t gotten that far in the books yet so, I’ll have to see how I feel once I’ve read more. In general, I think Claudia’s turning was probably somewhere in between Louis/claudia’s version and the trial version, but I’m definitely open to changing my mind if given more information.
Lestat was abusive. Louis was manipulative but suffered from PTSD. Louis was human. Lestat ‘s claim that Louis pursued him is not believable. Louis was at fault for Claudia.
Yeah, a queer black man openly pursuing a white person in Jim Crow South? If a black person had gotten their signals wrong they could end up swinging from the nearest tree.
I think it's debatable. A lot of people don't like referring to their relationship as "abusive" since "mutual abuse" isn't a thing, and then it's implying the toxicity in their relationship is one-sided when it really isn't. Plus abusers tend to show a pattern of abuse in past relationships which neither Lestat nor Louis have a history of - so this is really a situation where they each made the other worse. Lestat with his general BPD-ness and Louis with his passive-aggressiveness and possessiveness. With 0 communication it was a powder keg waiting to explode. I agree with you though that I don't think even Lestat believes that Louis pursued him. He could read his mind so knew Louis wanted him, but I very much think this is part of the script and the way Lestat plays it is maximum drama, I don't think he himself believes a word he is saying, he's just playing his role...
@@mieroth I mean, abuse victims can behave in toxic ways towards their abusers. The reason that's not considered "mutual abuse" is because of power dynamics and the fact that they are reacting to a situation that was started by an abuser. The more accurate term for a lot of Louis' behavior towards Lestat would be reactive abuse, which *is* a real phenomenon, it just doesn't imply an even level of culpability the way mutual abuse does (the reason the framework of "mutual abuse" is widely rejected). It also absolutely doesn't stop Lestat's behavior from being abusive, lol
@@maevem316: Louis admits to starting things though, and deliberately going out of his way to antagonize Lestat "and make him suffer because I was suffering." I don't think the situation is quite as simple as you're making it out to be, and is the reason why many people have just removed abuse from the conversation to avoid discussions of "mutual abuse" - instead preferring to simply call their relationship toxic and situationally violent. And I tend to agree with that, I think that fits their relationship better as a descriptor. Louis always resisted the label of him being abused which surprised Daniel after decades of distance from Lestat, but I think we're supposed to realize that Louis did know what he was talking about and had a firmer grasp on his relationship with Lestat and its pitfalls than Daniel did as an outsider (which is a bit of a plot-twist, since at the time it was happening we saw Daniel as the only one seeing the truth of the situation and Louis as being in denial). And Louis has been blinded in many ways in the present but like Lestat he has clearly done a lot of introspection over the past few decades, and that's why he's single now and continuing on his journey of learning himself and I love that for him.
I do wish they hinted towards the racism in season 2 more. I really wish Claudia would have said “lynching” instead of “stoning” during the trial. As a Black American character I think it would have really honed in on not being able to escape racism either ! Only because it was hinted at during the first season that Europe was more accepting, only for Louis and Claudia to find out that just like Lestat saying that the vampires are vicious so is the racism because it’s not something they’re used to dealing with.
I was thinking that when lestat was recounting what happened between him and Louis it was based on what Armand thinks happened Because we know lestat was reading a script and Armand was the one who wrote it and I don’t think lestat would ever tell Armand the story of him and Louis nor would I think Louis But in the relationship between Armand and Louis you could argue that Louis was the one in control the pursuer the one doing the ‘hunting’ so if Armand thinks that just how Louis was then maybe he wrote that into the play even tho that’s not what actually happened between Louis and lestat
Armand wasn’t the one that wrote the play though? Santiago and Sam wrote it based on Claudia’s diaries they’ve been reading and they embellished it to make Louis worse and Lestat better coz it fit their trial better. It’s not what Armand thinks happened between Louis and Lestat.
16:48 SPOILERS TO THE VAMPIRE LESTAT AHEAD there could be several reasons why armand would do what he did. in his own words "it was you or my coven of 200 years, and i couldn't count on your love lasting as long". armand needed structure in his life and being a coven leader gave him that even when it was something that he didn't like to do. the other possible reason is that he could be more invested in lestat than he let on, we still don't know what the writers are going to do with his feelings about lestat, but they are a pretty big motivation for armand throughout the entirety of the books and, from the way it's looking, it seems like the writers are going to follow that storyline.
I think maybe the reason Armand betrayed Louis is because, like the rest of the coven, he's envious that Louis and Claudia have been able to retain some of their humanity. Which might also explain why his attitude towards Louis through the decades seems to keep going back and forth because he can only ever have proximity to humanity instead of actually having it. I think that's why when Louis finds out the truth, he begins desperately chasing after him and fabricating lies in order to keep that proximity. I think that's also why he hates Daniel because he's actually able to bring out and connect with Louis' humanity.
It’s already been renewed. Please watch the teaser trailer for S3.
Thank God!
@@ourcrazystupidpodcast I know right!!!!
@@ourcrazystupidpodcast It would be really cool if you reacted to the s3 teaser. It's a short but perhaps perfect piece of marketing
They’re doing my favorite book in the chronicles next season and I can’t wait.
Interview with the Vampire being the best show on TV is not a hot take, it is the truth of the universe.
When Louis calls it a “gift” he literally says what he means: the dark gift allowed him to stay alive, see the change in the world and even have a normal business. He now can exist as an openly gay Black man even though it’s still not easy.
Yes it didn't happen how Lestat expected it but he unknowingly gave Louis the gift of time. Louis is objectively more free as a black gay man in present day than he would have ever been in his natural lifetime. It's why I think he's embraced his vampirism much sooner than in the books - it prob helps also that in the present day there are "ethical" ways of drinking human blood. In the book Louis really only embraces vampirism towards the end of the series, so it'll be very interesting to see how a Louis who is more sure in himself will impact the plot moving forward!
And I know some people have argued it's a sudden turn but really it was a gigantic change he was made aware of in the last episode - it changes everything. All this time he has believed that Lestat came to Paris to kill him and Claudia, so him becoming a vampire would always lead to Claudia's death and Lestat trying to kill him. And he loves Lestat so that must have been even more painful, and on top of that he's stuck with a man who bores him that he's staying with out of spite. That none of this was true/needed is SUCH a weight lifted off his shoulders. He still has guilt over the part he played in Claudia's fate (and other things) but compared to what he was going through earlier it must be such a relief. And now he can finally see a future before him and recognise his continued existence for the gift that it is.
@@mieroth totally agree!
Such an interesting discussion! I love your podcasts. And I've noticed that in both Season 1 and Season 2, rainwater is used as a way to wash away b.s. subterfuge and expose the truth. Jonas and Louis have their private moment in the rain, not knowing that jealous Lestat is watching, but Lestat's muddy boots later disclose to Louis that he, Lestat, was there. Claudia buries her victims in shallow earth, and when the heavy rains come the bodies rise to the surface to reveal what she did. Louis swims the river to reach Lestat in Season 1, as you pointed out, and in Season 2 he returns to Lestat during an especially bad hurricane. Objective truth is brought to light in all these "wet" scenes!
I saw an old interview clip of Ann Rice saying how she base Louis on herself. That Louis is essentially her and how she relates so much to him. Lestat, she said, was a character that ended up surprising her with how he fascinated her and how she really loves that character.
"The best show on TV?" Why yes, yes it is. I haven't loved a show so much as this one in years! Both the writing and acting is on a whole other level!
"Follow the bouncing ball" felt like Claudia daring the audience. They happily went along with tormenting them through out the trial and she was daring them to see it thru, to sing along and be complicit in their death.
Good point
I do wonder though if that actually happened, since that came from Armand only and Louis could not corroborate.
Regarding Armand and why he betrayed Louis in Paris, I think it came down to his commitment issues with Louis and the coven. He struggled to decide who he’d stay with and ultimately sided with the coven because of his survival instincts AND not wanting to be alone. If Lestat didn’t save Louis, Armand probably would’ve let Louis die 😭
Armand definitely planned on Louis dying! Armand is beautiful, broken, and spiteful lol.
Armand has a lot of history with that coven and Lestat and what he did. I think that episode was slept on in many ways with Armand’s telling. He def did ALOT of retelling that telling
Yep 😔
I believe that the overarching theme of this show, among many others, is that we are all unreliable narrators of our own stories. The saying "there are three sides to every story: your side, my side, and the truth" has never been more relevant. It's a reflection of real life. When a relationship breaks down, we often cast ourselves as the victim and the other person as the villain, sometimes without any malicious intent. We tell stories based on how we feel, and as adults, we should understand by now that just because we feel a certain way doesn’t make it true. This show is absolutely brilliant! I could go on forever about it. I love the fandom and would love to engage more with you all to unpack and analyze the characters!
16:46 there's a lot of layers to Armand's motivations. We barely get to see the real armand this season imo because he's always acting around Louis (in dubai) and in the story the version of armand we get to see is the one he curated to fit the narrative he wanted to tell. We see armand only in glimpses, like in ep 5 in San Fran and here and there when he is provoked or emotional. But when you think about it to him Louis was supposed to be a way of out of his monotony with the coven and also a connection to Lestat because idk if you caught it but armand is absolutely obssesed with Lestat just as much as Louis is but in a very different way. And of course when he realizes in Paris that Louis's feelings for Lestat and his disregard for the Laws the he cherishes so much (Santiago warned claudia about it ) were going to be a constant source of conflict for them he was like well f*ck it I need to cut him out and I need to do it in a way that will hurt Lestat deeply. Imo He only decided to go back with Louis because 1)he came to the belated realization that the coven was no longer what he wanted and he didn't want to have to endure eternity alone 2) there mightve have been a confrontation with lestat after the facts and before he pulled Louis out the wall that we didn't see.
Also keep in mind Armand enjoys playing games and when he gets bored he gets creative. Idk if yall noticed the parallels between Claudia's play and what happened with Paul and the way he was looking at Louis when it was being performed. Or what he did with the photo albums for Paris. He loves playing these crazy ass games and loves to see where they take him.
He very much is a twisted motherf*cker with lots of mental issues but the kicker is I love him too 😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭 I'm one of those girlies that loves Lestat and Armand and Louis. I love all the characters even the terrible ones.
Also keep in mind that Armand's upbringing is why he does what he does he finds it more comfortable to act like the weaker party and manipulate perception in order to get what he wants. It feels safer for him that way. It's fascinating
Excellent comment. Armand is obsessed with Lestat, and he hates that he that he loves him as much as he hates him. Their interactions tickle me so much. I can’t wait for season 3. Lestat is my fave, but I love me some Louis too and I’m very fond of the gremlin.
Oh wow! So basically Armand is on some squid games shit, he’s so old and rich he just creates chaos and violence for fun. Also I’ve been trying to figure out this whole time why he would let the coven kill Louis after acting so in love with him and your comment rly brought it altogether for me. Armand wanted to kill Louis IN FRONT OF Lestat to get back at him for leaving him. That’s wild. And I definitely think there had to have been a conversation with Lestat and Armand when Lestat came back to Paris and/or after they killed Claudia like you said. I still can’t figure out why Armand ended up saving Louis from the wall coffin tho… is it just more of his games? Does he REALLY care about Louis or is everything rly just about getting back at Lestat? You’ve got me thinking so many questions now lol
@SaintJawn that last part is kinda unclear to me too. But I have theories based on some context clues. Like he grew bored of of the coven and decided to take Louis out the wall to destroy it you know the way he led Lestat back to his coven to destroy it back in the day. If you go back and watch ep 4 when they are in the restaurant watch the body language while he's being told the stuff that's going on in the coven he's annoyed, he's bored and again in ep 6 before he lets Santiago take them in the restaurant when Claudia asked him how he's enjoying her coffin and he brings up all the things he doesn't miss about being with them. We do get kernels of truth out of him it's not the full truth. So I think he grew bored of the coven and decided to pull Louis out to destroy it he also knows that Louis can't hurt him either way, he's super powerful afterall. And also I think whatever he notices of Lestat after the trial push him to free Louis too which is why he also was somewhat confident that Lestat wasn't gonna expose him when he takes Louis to see him in Magnus' Lair. That part is still a little unclear as to exactly what that conversation was cuz we weren't shown much but yeah that's my theory
I think what Louis meant was that Lestat gave him the opportunity to live in a time where he is more accepted and give him time to learn to love himself fully and honestly. It took him a long time to get there given armands influence and how armand was shaping louis into his perfect companion but once louis broke free from armands spell he was able to see that lestat was trying to allow him to grow organically into who he is meant to be. He has been telling him since episode 1 “be all the beautiful things you are and be them without apology” i think its only now that louis is finally ready to do that and love not just who he was as a human but who he can be as a vampire. That strong vampire potential that Lestat saw in him is ready to come out. He wouldn't have been able to be those things without the dark “gift”.
so glad i found this podcast. yall have really in depth, well thought out and interesting takes
17:40 a core element of armand's manipulation technique (with louis at least, he changes it up depending on the person) is to present himself a the sheep or the lamb, he makes himself appear frail and harmless, servile, so louis falls into this feeling of having power over him when in reality every single thing that louis does to (and/or) with armand is because armand allows it. armand knows he is the strongest vampire in most of the rooms he enters and he knew he was the strongest vampire in his coven, he's been able to mind-control them in the past with ease
I find really funny that both Armand and Lestat kind of downplay their power to get with Louis.
You mentioned the use of water in the series and how it correlated to the water during the hurricane scene where Louis and Lestat are reunited. Claudia and her demise are a major part of that conversation. The hurricane going on at that moment is symbolic of the “Stormy romance between you two!” that Claudia exclaimed during the trial. In that final scene when the shutters of the house implode, it could’ve been the spirit of Claudia-who referred to herself as a shingle on the roof-releasing her fury for the part Louis and Lestat played in her death. In the very least, I think the implosion and the debris/shingles being tossed about are a metaphor for Claudia.
I moved to New Orleans after the movie of IWTV, and it was lovely. I got to attend the Lestat ball at the orphanage and buy many of the books from the Rink. The TV shows is beyond awesome - my only problem is - like many other shows adapted from books - how the readers get mad/upset with the aging up of characters... Like really - you want to see a 5 year old play an 80 year old woman - while perpetually looking 5... Aside, from that I'm glad this telling of this story is more inclusive and sensitive to the viewers by not taking us to the original time in the book ...
21:29 Armand made louis feel inferior, i.e., when Armand mocked louis' passions in s2ep6 "A vampire w/hobbies" code switching is DEF the feel I get💯💯✨️
I also found the water observation interesting, but the most striking nature metaphor in these last two episodes is Lestat being called a hurricane by Armand ("there's no scripting a hurricane") and then Louis going headfirst coffin advance-shipped into the middle of a hurricane and signing the liability waiver. And them hugging in the middle of it all while the rest of the house breaks down. Which could also be a callback to Claudia saying she was just a shingle that flew off from their roof. The show isn't very subtle with what they want to tell.
I also think with regards to vampirism being called a gift, i feel like what Louis says in passing in the last episode ties into it: how he thought of ways how it could end up differently--be a man in the different suit, steal the candy from the barber. But he says he would still end up kissing Lestat on the altar, and he would still not burn Lestat when Claudia suggests they burn him, ending with Claudia being dead. Because Louis's love for Lestat is tied with the gift of vampirism and an allegory for his repressed homosexuality. And part of his arc is coming to terms with his agency and his culpability and the most unpleasant parts of his memory, including him craving that love and that gift that it took him a century--well more than a human lifetime--to accept, something he would not have the ability to if not for vampirism. That's why he thanks Lestat for the nights ahead where he might try to live honestly.
My personal theory is that Armand downplays his past relationship with Lestat a ton, but would actually get back together with him in a heartbeat given the opportunity. He desperately grasps for love from the people least willing to give it to him and schemes his way into their lives. The thing that attracts him to Louis is similar to the thing that attracts him to Lestat, this upheaval, chaos in his well-ordered life, thier inability to follow the rules he has set for himself. He welcomes that loss of control, but its impossible for him to remain in that state; he needs to gain control back. I think the trial/play was an opportunity for him to break up Louis and Lestat, to dissolve their bond by having Lestat do irredeemable things to Louis, so that one of the two would come back to Armand in the end. I think he was willing to take either of them in the fallout, but was probably thinking it would be Lestat left alone for him to get back in with it. He constantly uses them to hurt each other (thinking of that scene in ep5) because he wants to dissolve their ties so he can be the main priority to either of them. I dont think he notes the hypocrisy of this and how he also carries baggage from past relationships into each of his own, i.e. casting all his partners in the role of Marius so he can play Amadeo again. I honestly feel like he did not turn Daniel out of spite at the end (spite is more Louis' thing imho), but out of this desperate grasping to have anyone stay attached to him. Louis is his consolation prize in the fallout of the trial, Daniel may be his consolation prize in the fallout of this relationship. A bond between maker and fledging cant be broken. But thats just my theories on it lol and we'll have to see what happens.
I love every word you said!
i saw a tweet that basically said armand was probably willing to let louis die along with claudia because (in his mind) lestat could be free to be with him. and i can see it. i do think we'll get more insight on that trial in s3 as well.
@@haje7096I think he wanted to punish Lestat for the same reason he wanted to punish Louis. Slight (?) book spoilers but, Armand had a much more proactive role in his relationship with Lestat, he wasn’t just seduced and abandoned. He *did* unspeakable things to Lestat in order to get him to stay and it doesn’t work. He’s angry.
I also feel it was more than spite Armand seems to show fascination for Daniel. Ever since the room when he saved his life. Armand is attracted to those who operate outside of the norm, as Lestat and Louis both did, Daniel definitely does that. Even as human Daniel isn’t shy about telling Armand to shut up even though he is a 500 something year old powerful vampire and we do know Armand loves to dominated. So yes I think he is intrigued.
@@dduchess3606 yes, I agree!
This is one of the best shows ever made, so good
Glad yall are finally caught up, now yall have to suffer with the rest of us, when S3 drops, week by week episodes.
Welcome to the fandom!!!!!!!!!!!! (distant hugs) We're all a vampire coven now!
What an incredible ride! lol
12:25 this circles back to episode 2 of the season 2 when we are first introduced to Santiago and he tells them you are all complicit. They are all complicit.
Boom. Exactly this!
@ourcrazystupidpodcast also there was definitely a racial undertone to the trial. It was more of a lynching than anything else
About Armand motivation…there’s a video essay on UA-cam called “exploring the complexity of interview with the Vampire “ from creator “Serieable” that explains it better than I could ever. I’ve read 6 of the book and I’ve always find Armand character difficult to grasp and I love Armand tv version way more than the book version… in the essay Serieable says that Armand motivation comes from how trauma and eternal life have shaped his concept of time and interpersonal relationships, it really interesting video, I always recommend it because it made me understand Armand better after all these years. Anyway great video I discovered your podcast because of iwtv and I will definitely continue to fallow because your comments are insightful and you made me reflect on certain aspects of the show more deeply. Thank you!❤
Thank you!
ahhh i’m so happy you guys are finally caught up! i think everyone who watched this show, specifically season two, would also agree that it is the best show on television right now. nothing else really comes close. in regards to your analysis on weather/water not being able to stop louis and lestat from reuniting, i think the scene that showed this was when louis was checking into the hotel and the guy at the front desk asks him to fill out a waiver for the hurricane and he signs it with a smile. the hurricane is lestat and louis filling out that form was him signing himself up for a second chance with lestat knowing the risk that comes with it. idk something about that is so beautiful to me.
also i’m surprised yall didn’t talk about daniel more. a lot of fans gloss over it, but him continuing to publish the book after louis purposefully lit his laptop on fire to prevent it did not sit right with me. it’s clear that louis did not want that book released after learning how armand skewed his memories and experiences, and specifically how lestat is portrayed in it. daniel ignoring that and publishing it anyway was definitely…a choice.
Armand lied about saving Louis, but he told the truth about starting his betrayal the night of Madeline's transformation. Louis met Armand and asked him to witness what could be something beautiful. Louis came in close, touching, loving and passionate about his ask. But as soon as Armand said, "Are you asking me or making me", Louis' whole demeanor went cold. He responded, "That's okay" and kissed him but, as Louis would say in future San Francisco, it was "a 'fine' that doesn't sound like 'fine'."
That must have terrified Armand. He won't create anyone because he finds it disgusting but he'll lose the coven completely if he lets Louis turn another human. After all, Armand put Santiago's maker in the crypt for creating Santiago without Maître's permission. How would he get away with giving this rogue vampire permission to create? He weighed Louis' conditional love against the coven's certain endurance, and he chose.
Armand did learn one big thing from that night. In '73 when he reeeeeeally wanted to kill Daniel and Louis stopped him, Armand said, "Are you asking me..?" He knew Louis was talking to Arun the slave, and that Arun will never say no to Maître again.
Agree except Armand says no to maître constantly. Submission to Louis was only ever just an illusion Armand perpetrated to be comfortable but it was never the truth.
@@anarudiazI don't perceive Armand as saying no, exactly. I actually believe Mr. "I-will-never-harm-you" does his evil, then reshapes Louis' memories. They're both passive-aggressive, but Armand is as emotionally weak as he is physically powerful. Slipping famous Fred Stein pictures into Louis' photography portfolio, then hinting Louis is insane and might have put them in there himself, is more Armand's mind-bending modus operandi. It's no wonder Louis got freaked out enough about all the holes in his memory to call Daniel Molloy to Dubai.
@@tdali8347 you’re right in that he doesn’t “say no.” I made myself unclear. What I meant by that was, Armand is not actually the submissive he playacts to be. If Louis is not acting the way Armand wants him to act, he will manipulate him or events in order to get the desired effects. So we agree completely.
17:03 everything leads back to lestat🤧😭 Armand a bitter ex pretty much
It's an incredible show with so many layers and attention to detail. Thank you both for furthering the discussion with your POV!
Thanks for tuning in with us!
I've really enjoyed hearing your thoughts on this season! So when it comes to Armand and his motivations this episode, I had a thought during your episode six conversation that I needed to hold back until you'd seen the full season. Now that you have, here's what I'd been thinking: In the episode six conversation, Adrian pointed out that Armand said to Louis, "Are you asking or are you making me?" (about turning Madeleine) and thought that Louis was annoyed about Armand bringing it up because it brought up the shame of their D/s dynamic. That wasn't how I saw that scene though. Basically, if you rewatch that scene, Louis is asking Armand to be part of an experience he's trying to make meaningful, turning Madeleine. Armand doesn't want to do it, mostly because he's holding onto outdated coven rules, and Louis is communicating that he's going to do it anyway, with some determination but overall very gently. Armand tries to bring their D/s dynamic into the situation and Louis backs off immediately because he wants participating to be something Armand chooses to do freely, not because it's part of some game between the two of them. But unfortunately, Armand sees Louis declining to participate as a rejection of him and we learn in the season finale that he started plotting against Louis and Claudia right away after that.
Ester asked what Armand's motivation was and if it was that he was angry. I'd say it was that he felt rejected by Louis, which is worse than pure anger because there's hurt behind it too. Armand is a really damaged character and I hope we get to learn more about him in future seasons of the show.
just a note though its not outdated coven rules, its very much a personal rule he’s set for himself. even in dubai he mentioned being repulsed at the idea of turning someone. (he did turn daniel at the end of the season but there’s a lot of backstory behind why which the show hasn’t gone into yet)
Also vampirism is called “the dark gift” but Louis is now connected to it as such.
It is easily the best show on TV! You y'all are 100% correct!
Damn, when it comes to Armand you’re right about him, he is the strongest vampire we’ve met in the show so far, but he is stunted emotionally and plays submissive in a manipulative way that I suspect comes from his human experience as a slave, people refer to him as the devil’s minion and knowing some things from the next book (the vampire lestât) he more than deserves that title. He’s very strong, manipulative and genuinely insecure that’s a dangerous combo that makes him very volatile but in like in a more quiet way. I still love him though😅
No spoilers but Armand isn’t the Devil’s Minion 😅 he’s the devil and the minion is uh…someone else lmao
“I am the Devil’s minion and he grants my every wish.” Was said about Armand not *by* Armand.
Armand is a 500 year old vampire even more powerful than Lestat. In this season he froze an entire restaurant full of vampires and people. He can read minds with much more ease than anybody. He was in no danger of getting killed by his coven. That means he saw Louis didn't love him enough, and decided he had to die. And that also meant rewiring his brain and mindfucking him every so often times in that 77 years they were together. This becomes evident after so many rewatches.
And about his motivations, this ties back to Lestat. Do you think a guy who has had a one-sided obsession for like, a decade about Lestat would be truthful about him? Or would be normal about Lestat's newest lover and child and fledglings?
Lestat based on Anne's husband, Louis based on Anne herself and Claudia based on their deceased daughter.
oh i also wanted to add your discussions are always so insightful, and i’d love to hear you guys discuss daniel!
Loved watching you react to my favorite show. And even though Armand is my favorite because he's just so pathetic I love people having negative reactions to him. I hope you'll post a reaction to the season 3 teaser from SDCC.
Remember though: what happened on stage after Louis was dragged off stage, is now being told from Armand, who is lying. So Claudia going out singing one of their stupid songs just doesn’t sound like something she would do. That was b.s.
Lestat only went to save Louis 😢 he loved him even after everything that happened
Absolutely love this show need yall to talk abt Arcane next
We're rewatching it rn!
Love that you guys still keep in mind that literally everyone's retelling is biased in their favor 😅 (or in Claudia's case in Daddy Lou's).
I love your take on Louis' pov being adopted from Claudia's diaries ! I think that plus Lestat's perceived betrayal of Louis in Paris is what skewed his retelling of NOLA events etc
Its understandable that Lestat's actions in that light would appear more sinister and intentionally manipulative because Louis is remembering it all with the pain of knowing that Lestat came to the trial to have them killed.
Ultimately none of them are blameless. They have hurt each other so much (and yes. Even post 2x07 and 2x08, the ep 5 drop is still inexcusable and Lestat agrees but its up to Louis to decide if 70 years later its forgivable 😅). But the love is very much still there.
Really enjoyed watching your episode breakdowns ! Praying for a late 2025 release of season 3 !
It is absolutely the best show on TV right now. This show is firing on all cylinders and I cannot wait for season 3!
I felt like a lot of what was said in the play was still lies tho bcuz Lestat goes off script several times and actually takes accountability for the abuse he inflicted on Louis. I think the part about Louis pursuing Lestat was one of those lies to paint him as the bad guy in the trial. It doesn’t make any sense for that part to be true. I think a lot of their story was rewritten by Santiago and Armand in the play and that’s why Lestat goes off script and says no that’s not true. I think the part about Louis making him turn Claudia was the truth. I think Armand is public enemy number 1 tho 😂
At least in the books, Armand’s motivation in the trial, I believe, was always revenge or a hurt ego from Lestat. He’s always had this love/hate thing with Lestat, and before Lestat left France, Armand begged him to stay and love him and be with him. I think Lestat leaving really made him angry which is why he did what he did to Nicky and Louis. I do think Armand loved Louis, but I don’t think they were ever in love. Then when that didn’t work he wanted to go back to Lestat lol.
To me armand situation is really simple, Sophie's choice, from his perspective it's a difficult moment, choosing between the coven of "several lifetimes" or a person he was falling in love with, but it had to be done, kill both and move on as he always did in his 500 years of life... being part of everything it's just another step. I think their immortality is the key to understanding Armand's behavior. just another event that passes in his tragic existence!
armand's special brand of psychological abuse is tied into him being a religious fanatic. he's always looking for something or someone to worship. so he devotes himself to upholding the great laws. but there's an egotistical part of him that just likes being in control of other vampires. so he punishes those who won't submit to him, all while acting like he didn't have a choice. despite being well over 400 years old by the time he enters the story.
so when lestat showed up prancing and carrying on to entertain a bunch of humans, armand's first thought was "how do i control this one?". the more lestat resisted, the more armand pursued. he even kidnapped and tortured nicki to lure in lestat and it still didn't get him the control he wanted. plus it cost him his whole coven! which i think left him angrier than he lets on while talking to daniel in 2x03.
by the time the "trial" is happening, armand is still obsessed with upholding the great laws. and he's lowkey obsessed with lestat. so he uses punishing claudia and louis as a way to both punish lestat for his past 'insolence' and more vulnerable to giving in to armand.
Armand’s active participation can be seen a few ways. He wanted to punish Louis and Claudia for violating the Great Laws or he wanted to punish Lestat by killing their maker and making a fledgling without permission; or the only way he could keep the coven was to sacrifice them and in the end, the coven was the most important thing. He had choices.
I also saw a TikTok of someone saying that when Claudia said “this isn’t a trail it’s a stoning” they should’ve changed it to it was a lynching because it would bring attention to how this white coven is orchestrating the execution of these two black vampires while ignoring the laws that lestat broke and giving Madeline a chance to save herself but condemning Louis and Claudia
I love that. Id like to see that tiktok
About Armand (love discussing him lol),
The problem with his role in the trial was that we don’t know enough from his perspective and what got him to agree to directing the play, if there were changes made by the coven separately afterwards, etc. because the season kind of ends with the reveal we’re left with this image of Armand as the “mastermind” behind everything and i think we’ll get more nuance on that later.
Personally, maybe i’m assuming the best out of Armand bc i really understand him + being south asian + having context for a lot of the things in his backstory, but I do believe while he directed the play out of spite for louis and lestat’s relationship i doubt that he was the one who arranged it to be as cruel as it actually ended up being, and i think he’s very susceptible to “submitting” to others when asked, and there must’ve been a truth to the lie he told louis earlier about himself feeling forced to take the coven’s side and himself believing that he couldn’t prevent the trial.
I think that’s part of his weakness which you brought up!
I think Armand is mentally very weak and he’s aware of this so he retorts to mental manipulation as a way to keep himself safe. He also has a very weird relationship with vampirism and is very strict with the rules he places on himself about his vampiric nature (this will be explored further with him and daniel), and to me it comes off as the fact that
1. he never escaped the mindset he’s been in from when he was a victim of sex trafficking and abuse (becomes dangerous when he actually does have power, and refuses to accept accountability) and
2. he’s limits himself for various reasons but one of which i believe is that he doesn’t want to become an abuser himself, the very concept of vampires as predatory creatures conflict with the other side of his nature (also dangerous because he’s not putting his power to good use he’s just standing by and letting things happen)
and because he tries to fight back against his own nature so much it ends up with him becoming explosive in bad ways like with the trial and san francisco.
but yeah! that’s how i understand him I think. I might be completely wrong though but this is what makes most sense to me. i can’t wrap my head around him being enthusiastic about the trial, and the motivations appear minimal.
Short answer: yes
Long answer: absolutely
Oh I'd love to see your reactions and thoughts/theories for s3 based on the trailer.
I knew ya’ll wouldn’t be able to resist watching the rest.😂 AMC actually released a Teaser for season 3 during SD ComicCon, y’all should definitely watch that.
Armand is a creature of habit and he’s spent most of his life in service to someone. His comfort zone is being a sub in a relationship. Louis uncertainty and constantly obsessing over Lestat is what I think made him align with the coven for the Trial. I think he partly did the play to break Louis and Lestat but mostly to punish Lestat for not choosing him. Louis and Armand stayed with each other for 70 plus years to spite Lestat over a lie.
I think Louis thanked Lestat because he was reluctant to a lot that Lestat had to offer him. Thinking about it from a queer context I’m like if I was forced out the closet early in a volatile time would I be respective learning everything there is to know about queerness at that time as I do now? Probably not. I think Louis always associated his Vampirism with loss so to him there was no benefits but Lestat who has suffered loss too chooses to see the world differently regardless of the negative.
Season 3 should be crazy because it will be from Lestat’s perspective and cover more lore. If we’re following book lore Louis and Lestat should have some reconciliation by the end before we enter the Queen of the Damned arc which I’m most excited for.
a possible problem with the claudia's last moments is that we only hear it from armand... the director of the trial... did claudia really sing the song or is armand lying?
Great review!!! Thank you!!!
I really enjoyed these podcasts on iwtv :)
Thank you!!
Idk if you guys have seen Severance, but the new season is (finally) slotted to come out this January! Could be a great next watch 📺
@@lalalillymo4 we do! We’ll be reviewing that as well
Thought:
Louis has to leave Daniel with Armand for a bit after the fight? What does Louis need to leave the house for when you just had the prime Minister's doctor pay Daniel a home visit?
Daniel learns all the trials and tribulations of being a vampire while eating 7 course meals consisting of some of Daniel's favorite foods that were listed in his book. What a Madeline thing for Louis to do. 😊
Armand didn't turn Daniel out of spike, he turned him as punishment. Why else would Armand risk digesting chemotherapy ridden blood? What does that do to a 500+yr old vampire?
Have you guys tried the show EVIL? The first couple of seasons are on Netflix, and the rest are on Paramount. Im finishing up now, and it's quite interesting.
Lestat was still really weakened when he came to Paris. Which is why he couldn’t save both Louis and Claudia. Armand wanted to be rid of the coven but passively. Like he did with Lestat with the original coven.
You should watch slow horses and severance.
I never thought Lestat's telling during the trial of how Louis pursued him was true. I always thought Lestat told it this way because he was instructed to do so by Armand as the play's director but also Lestat was still angry with Louis and wanted to get back at him. Louis denies it and I believed Louis in that moment. I think this is one of the more honest aspects of Louis and Lestat's relationship is that Lestat did pursue Louis in all of his passionate glory. We all know these vampires are enchanted with magical but tragic Louis. The power dynamic between the two supports this. Louis isn't even at his foundation the character that would pursue a master vampire, a white vampire at that, in the way you think Lestat seems to suggest. So yes, he's lying when he recounts this during the trial.
Currently the best show on TV. I just wish that more people knew how good it is and would give it a try!
Season 3 was greenlit around the season 2 finale.
Armand was able to change Louis memories as was shown in the earlier episode where both Daniel and Louis realized they each were manipulated both with their memories and worse in Daniel's case his whole life after San Francisco was created by Armand's tricks.. Is it any wonder it was Armand who perhaps to atone for his actions turned Daniel. Armand if you remember was created very young in comparison to the others so his maturity got stuck as that of a selfish petulant teenager or young adult who just wants what he wants and everyone else be damned.
Jacob Anderson was talking about Lestat in that interview lol, not Armand. Armand wanted both of them dead.
If you rewatch episode 7, you can see Lestat swaying back and forth, you can see bruises on his wrists and hands. Also if you notice, Lestat looks beautiful episode 7, but episode 8 when Daniel helps reveal the truth, you can see that Lestat’s face has deep eye bruises. There are clues that the majority of the audience didn’t catch because Louis didn’t catch them.
On Anne Rice, yes Claudia is based on her daughter, Louis was based on herself, and Lestat was based on her husband (& the obsession and toxicity is also based on their irl relationship after losing their daughter). Anne admitted this herself in interviews.
Louis calls it a gift because of the opportunity that eternity gives you to change and live honestly without shame. Something Louis has never been able to do. As a human he would have died repressed, miserable, and in the closet. Now he has the chance to self-actualize, he has the time and is ready for it.
Btw my little theory about that fight that Louis & Armand had and then magically was resolved next episode is because I think Armand has been tweaking Louis’ memories. I don’t think he does it after every argument, but I think he does it when Louis is getting too close to the truth. This is also why I don’t believe Louis asked Armand to erase his memory after San Francisco. In season 1, Claudia said, “we leave the damage so we never forget the damage.” And that’s what Louis has always done, he lives in the damage tbh.
One last thing, you guys never mentioned Daniel! What are your thoughts on what happened to him? Lol
I hope y’all watch the s3 teaser and talk about it next time😊. I’ve loved listening to you both discuss this show. As a book reader, I also can’t wait to see you guys take in S3 which is an adaptation of The Vampire Lestat. That book is arguably the best in the whole series.
ok, so now that ur all caught up. I could tell u to go watch that fun season 3 teaser that was released during comic con. however, imma just be THAT person and say you should read The Vampire Lestat. the second book in the series and the one that is going to be adapted next season. Lestat really does feel like a complete new person in that series, and it's because Anne Rice fell in love with Lestat, and he essentially becomes the MC in 9 out the 13 books.
other than that, what can I really say that u haven't said already. Lestat, Louis, and Armand ALL have hand in Claudia's demise. and it sad to say but if she didn't die here she would've died eventually some other way because from what we heard from the vampires though floating out there in that finale, lestat was right, the vampire out in the world are vicious but it makes sense since they are Apex predators. as for Armand. it does feel that what he does is so irredeemable, but somehow that vamp has won me over (I blame Lestat in the novels for that. bc even when he doesnt like someone he cant help but point how how hot and sad they are 😂).
I don't hate Armand. I just pity him. I do believe Armand if he really wanted to he could've overpowered the coven and Louis in the present-day confrontation, but I think he isn't emotionally/mentally stable enough to do it. like Armand himself said, "Why is it that the ones with the most power are often the weakest"
overall, after season 2, I came out really side eyeing Louis a lot more. like yeah what happen to him in that abusive relationship with Lestat was horrible but there many things he avoided taking accountability for and that really irked me. as for claudia, I really didn't like her in both the movie and the novel and the show really made me champion for this tragic character. her and Madeline deserve to go live off together. in my headcanon they are still out there. 😢
also one thing I want to point out is. I see Armand as a vampire who is constantly trying to find a purpose for his existence and therefore one reason why he betrays Louis and Co is because he is looking at it in a "what is the higher probability of me getting out of this alive and still having something to live for?" maybe he knew that he could fight off these vamps but a.) he's not confident enough to think he can do it and b.) he gonna take the path that seems that he doesn't have to do most of the work. idk if that makes sense. like he's an opptunist in a way and even if he miserable with the coven that still would've put up with it because at least he servitude to someone or something. this is why am so interested in seeming his more religious side. he is the only vamp so far that I know who believes in a God. anne rice really used him to explore her own conflicts with religion
I think you would love My Brilliant Friend
I LOVE My brilliant friend! I’ve been watching it since it first came out and it’s one of my favorite show along with IWTV! Also, I never really comment on posts ….but I never hear people talk about that show, and so I got excited when I saw it mentioned 😂
@@ryannwatkins7612 Aha me too it’s so good and so underrated! I rarely comment too but love the way these guys dissect characters and motivations and Lila and Lenu are ripe for that!
@@TheFloralP. Right! I dissect Lenu and Lila in my head for hours after the episodes 😂. Every episode I go back and forth with myself about which one is the actual worst friend 😂. They drive me crazy with some of their decisions, but I love them and I just want them both to be happy! And their relationships with the men in their life is so so interesting
@@ryannwatkins7612 Fr, the men in that show 😩 (Other than Enzo 🙏)
yeah, armand’s real bad. he’s still my favorite character. he’s just too interesting
i’m so sorry claudia
Everyone forgets that Antoinette is dead. Claudia doesnt get a pass because she killed Antoinette. Lestat is alive, yes, but Antoinette isnt.
15:50 what do you mean?? obviously armand had enough power to save both of them (he's the most powerful- he could knock out every single vampire in the coven (restaurant scene)) moreover, i believe armand chose the coven bc of claudia / armand and louis' relationship with claudia in the picture, wasn't enough. after claudia was dealth with armand knew he could finally have louis all to himself and he began buildinging his cage of empathy
Best Show YES!!!!!
The reason I said to stop covering two episodes at a time, it was too hard not to Give away Spoilers haha. You guys would say something then I had to bite my tongue so hard not to comment, especially with Armond and Lestat. I've watched it a few times now and I still cry, especially over poor sweet Claudia. She finally found happiness and someone to love, only to die in the end. As far as I see it, she was the only innocent one, out of them all. Yes, she was a monster, but she had to be, she was raised as one, and then was punished for it.
To be fair, she was punished for breaking The Great Laws. It was attempting to kill her maker/coven leader, killing the vamp tramp, and writing about vampires. Claudia being a monster was a positive in the eyes of the coven.
I’ve rewatched a few episodes after watching your videos(love them btw) but one thing I keep struggling to understand is, why was Santiago and the coven so determined to k**lClaudia specifically. They were targeting her way before finding out about Lestat despite her being so fascinated and kind initially. Like why was Armand so quick to back them up on that.
My understanding of armands investment in the play is because armand doesnt have an identity. He needs someone like louis or like the coven to define him as a person and he dedicates himself entirely to it even if it causes him pain. He shows his love through service and suffering for the sake of the other person. He leans into his identity as a director since he cannot lean into his love of louis because louis relationship with claudia will always be a danger and burden to armand. I think as a director he was romanticizing their tragic love story that could never be. if he cannot be louis’ lover he will be the best damn director to ever suffer for his art. He makes this tragedy part of his body of work and his identity just like he does with his other relationships with people/other vampires. His sacrifice is proof of how remorseful he is to the coven.
She is the only one that doesn't get an apology, lestat can cry and say sorry to Louis but she had hands put on her and yet still gets punished throughout. To be fair, Armand way of going about it is a very human trait. I would say that you should probably go back and listen to him while he speaks.
It's sooo upsetting. Hope she further haunts the narrative fr.
The truth is that they both manipulated each other in their own way. Louis withholds from Lestat...but that could be because of how he grew up. essentially, he had to hide all of himself from the whores, from the white businessmen, from his whole family. He was never truly himself. So it would make sense that he would also compartmentalize to hide part of himself from Lestat. And what little power he had over Lestat he would try to exercise even though there was an imbalance of power. At the same time, Lestat's love was toxic. He demanded all of Louis's attention even though he felt that he could give his affection to multiple people. He withheld the truth from Louis and Claudia. Lestat was withholding as well. They were not their best selves with each other. It was all around toxic.
Season 3 has been greenlit and there is already a teaser trailer
Armand is a slave to rules and dogma, he doesn’t have his own beliefs, just rules to follow and enforce. He has been enforcing the great laws for over two hundred years, so the idea that he would suddenly change and take a different path when Lestat or Louis shows up, just doesn’t ring true. Armand doesn’t really change, it’s his biggest problem. Even when he was with Louis, he still has rules, and he brainwashed Louis so that his rules are adhered to.
Have you seen the movie? If not, I recommend watching it and maybe comparing it to the show.
Both Lestat and Armand are kind of similar when it comes to love. They both suffer from abandonment issues, needing to be loved, and needing Louis to love them the way they want to. However, their approach on how to solve Louis reciprocating their love is different.
With Lestat you have perfectly understood his mentality of “If I can't have you, no one can". He views Louis as his possession, his creation, his great love who he doesn't want to share to the point he gets jealous of the attention Louis gives to their daughter. We understand that he cannot stand the thought of Louis leaving him and not loving him, so his choice is to hurt him in retaliation. “Because how dare Louis?” I mean he did admit he wanted to own Louis.
With Armand, I read his mentality as “I am afraid of you abandoning me the way others already did, so I will abandon you (read destroy you) before you do”. Armand was enthralled by Louis, this young vampire who seemed to not conform to any rules, the opposite of what Armand has been doing all his life with the coven. However he started to doubt Louis' love and commitment to him, especially after Madeleine's turning, which was something Armand was completely against. And those doubts paralleled his past trauma and the people who he loved who abandoned him (his family,, Lestat, his maker..). My point is that he didn't want to go through that trauma again so he chose safety aka the coven over love (even when we know he hates being a coven leader).
Regarding the dynamic between Louis and Lestat it is ok to say it was abusive because it was. The writers wrote both relationships with Lestat and then Armand as such. The new revelations we got during the trial do not change the power imbalance both Lestat and Armand had over Louis and the need they had to control him. Lestat was a rich white vampire in Jim Crow, Armand was an ancient vampire leader of a coven of dozens, both stalked and read Louis' mind to get information on him before approaching him, both are more powerful and much older than Louis, Lestat selectively chose what knowledge he would share with Louis and Claudia to keep them close to him. Armand had the power to wipe minds and he did use that power on Louis to not further strain their relationship, Louis asked Armand? Well, are we sure now after the finale? Lestat did beat up Louis and choked Claudia. Lestat did cheat on Louis for the duration of their marriage: this hasn't changed. So yeah those were abusive relationships.
I do encourage you guys to watch the first season or both seasons again. Because now you will watch it knowing that Louis is doing this interview thinking that Lestat was an active participant in their daughter's death. And you will notice that Louis is still kinda kind to Lestat in his retelling. And also with the knowledge that Louis doesn't know the full extent of Armand's hand in the trial other than Armand cowardly selling them out to save his own skin. And you will notice Louis jabs of resentment/passive aggressiveness towards Armand that weren't so flagrant when you first watched the show..
Last point regarding Louis seeing being a vampire as a gift and no longer a curse. I'm with you on the bafflement. I think it was rushed by the writers for lack of time. Because we didn't see what triggered Louis to change his view on the dark gift, we didn't see how he came to this conclusion. And I would have loved to watch that journey.
Thank y’all so much for sharing your thoughts. You’re some of my favorite creators because y’all are so thoughtful.
I would like to point out a few things now things that y’all mentioned.
1) The version of the fight, Louis and lestat’s courting period, and Claudia’s turning in 2x7 are not really lestat’s version of events. We know that the trial is being scripted and directed in order to make Louis and Claudia look guilty. So the version of Louis we see there isn’t really how lestat sees/ saw him; it how the coven wanted him to look. Louis thinks that’s lestat’s version of events because at the time he thinks Lestat wanted him and Claudia dead and played an active role in orchestrating the trial.
2) Y’all kinda allude to the fact that the reason Claudia and Louis aren’t given the grace to apologize and move on is because they’re black and I think that’s right. If you really analyze the trial it starts to look like a lynching real quick. From the anti black stereotypes they use against Louis to the cutting of the ankles (something enslavers used to do to slaves).
3) Overall, I still think Louis and lestat’s relationship was abusive (and mutual abuse isn’t a thing), because lestat still had significant power over Louis and Claudia, continuously cheated on Louis, and used his greater power and wisdom to control them; which is corroborated by Claudia’s diaries. That being said, I do feel like I understand why Lestat acted the way he did and I’m excited to see his arc and backstory even thought it doesn’t justify the abuse.
4) I think Louis is thanking lestat for a second lease on life. Lestat thought by turning Louis he was giving him the power to be his authentic self but he failed to consider the racial politics of the time and Louis’ personal trauma. Because so much time has passed, Louis now lives in a world and is in a place mentally where he can take advantage of vampirism to be his authentic self.
Again, thank y’all so much for sharing your journey with this show with us. Wishing y’all well.
I agree with you except point 1. He was scripted but you can tell when Lestat is telling the truth (Tbf in his pov), because Santiago and the rest get irritated or angry with him. I do believe he was telling the truth about Claudia’s turning and their fight in NOLA.
@@anarudiaz I see what you mean, but we don’t see them getting irritated at him for the specifics of the fight or Claudia’s turning. It’s only when he tries to take accountability like when he says he should be sentenced along Claudia and Louis. To be fair, I don’t think lestat is lying of his own free will, but I do think the trial was meant to deliberately highlight Louis and Claudia’s faults. Why would the coven be upset at Lestat for highlighting those faults in his story when that’s the whole point of the trial?
@@aliyahmckoy9154 looking back you’re correct. And obviously the turning is very different in the books, but there is book evidence that’s convinced me to the fact that Lestat is being honest. When it comes to Claudia and her turning, there’s a lot of mirroring Lestat’s second fledgling (vague for spoiler reasons). That sealed the deal for me.
@@anarudiaz That’s interesting. I haven’t gotten that far in the books yet so, I’ll have to see how I feel once I’ve read more. In general, I think Claudia’s turning was probably somewhere in between Louis/claudia’s version and the trial version, but I’m definitely open to changing my mind if given more information.
@@aliyahmckoy9154 yes, I take this from The Vampire Lestat which is the second book. It will blow your mind. (So much better than the first book)
Lestat was abusive. Louis was manipulative but suffered from PTSD. Louis was human. Lestat ‘s claim that Louis pursued him is not believable. Louis was at fault for Claudia.
Yeah, a queer black man openly pursuing a white person in Jim Crow South? If a black person had gotten their signals wrong they could end up swinging from the nearest tree.
I think it's debatable. A lot of people don't like referring to their relationship as "abusive" since "mutual abuse" isn't a thing, and then it's implying the toxicity in their relationship is one-sided when it really isn't. Plus abusers tend to show a pattern of abuse in past relationships which neither Lestat nor Louis have a history of - so this is really a situation where they each made the other worse. Lestat with his general BPD-ness and Louis with his passive-aggressiveness and possessiveness. With 0 communication it was a powder keg waiting to explode.
I agree with you though that I don't think even Lestat believes that Louis pursued him. He could read his mind so knew Louis wanted him, but I very much think this is part of the script and the way Lestat plays it is maximum drama, I don't think he himself believes a word he is saying, he's just playing his role...
@@mieroth I mean, abuse victims can behave in toxic ways towards their abusers. The reason that's not considered "mutual abuse" is because of power dynamics and the fact that they are reacting to a situation that was started by an abuser. The more accurate term for a lot of Louis' behavior towards Lestat would be reactive abuse, which *is* a real phenomenon, it just doesn't imply an even level of culpability the way mutual abuse does (the reason the framework of "mutual abuse" is widely rejected). It also absolutely doesn't stop Lestat's behavior from being abusive, lol
@@maevem316: Louis admits to starting things though, and deliberately going out of his way to antagonize Lestat "and make him suffer because I was suffering." I don't think the situation is quite as simple as you're making it out to be, and is the reason why many people have just removed abuse from the conversation to avoid discussions of "mutual abuse" - instead preferring to simply call their relationship toxic and situationally violent. And I tend to agree with that, I think that fits their relationship better as a descriptor.
Louis always resisted the label of him being abused which surprised Daniel after decades of distance from Lestat, but I think we're supposed to realize that Louis did know what he was talking about and had a firmer grasp on his relationship with Lestat and its pitfalls than Daniel did as an outsider (which is a bit of a plot-twist, since at the time it was happening we saw Daniel as the only one seeing the truth of the situation and Louis as being in denial). And Louis has been blinded in many ways in the present but like Lestat he has clearly done a lot of introspection over the past few decades, and that's why he's single now and continuing on his journey of learning himself and I love that for him.
I do wish they hinted towards the racism in season 2 more. I really wish Claudia would have said “lynching” instead of “stoning” during the trial. As a Black American character I think it would have really honed in on not being able to escape racism either ! Only because it was hinted at during the first season that Europe was more accepting, only for Louis and Claudia to find out that just like Lestat saying that the vampires are vicious so is the racism because it’s not something they’re used to dealing with.
I was thinking that when lestat was recounting what happened between him and Louis it was based on what Armand thinks happened
Because we know lestat was reading a script and Armand was the one who wrote it and I don’t think lestat would ever tell Armand the story of him and Louis nor would I think Louis
But in the relationship between Armand and Louis you could argue that Louis was the one in control the pursuer the one doing the ‘hunting’ so if Armand thinks that just how Louis was then maybe he wrote that into the play even tho that’s not what actually happened between Louis and lestat
Armand wasn’t the one that wrote the play though? Santiago and Sam wrote it based on Claudia’s diaries they’ve been reading and they embellished it to make Louis worse and Lestat better coz it fit their trial better. It’s not what Armand thinks happened between Louis and Lestat.
16:48 SPOILERS TO THE VAMPIRE LESTAT AHEAD
there could be several reasons why armand would do what he did. in his own words "it was you or my coven of 200 years, and i couldn't count on your love lasting as long". armand needed structure in his life and being a coven leader gave him that even when it was something that he didn't like to do. the other possible reason is that he could be more invested in lestat than he let on, we still don't know what the writers are going to do with his feelings about lestat, but they are a pretty big motivation for armand throughout the entirety of the books and, from the way it's looking, it seems like the writers are going to follow that storyline.
Armand is forever 17 years old. Just for reference.
Not in the show, he was turned at 27
Claudia is blameless!
I think maybe the reason Armand betrayed Louis is because, like the rest of the coven, he's envious that Louis and Claudia have been able to retain some of their humanity. Which might also explain why his attitude towards Louis through the decades seems to keep going back and forth because he can only ever have proximity to humanity instead of actually having it. I think that's why when Louis finds out the truth, he begins desperately chasing after him and fabricating lies in order to keep that proximity. I think that's also why he hates Daniel because he's actually able to bring out and connect with Louis' humanity.