How can you mistake Irving Finkle of anything but youngest most virile?! He is amazing! Thank you so much Jeremy for the amazingly educational session 🥰🥰
That strapping serving boy, keep an eye on him, he seems wise beyond his years. I've seen him rooting around the treasure rooms, playing board games when he should be working, and poking pointy sticks into mud. He's too smart and charismatic for his own good. A trouble maker and rabble rouser if ever I saw one.
I could have just looked at those two vessels and thought, "Wow, those are impressive. Great craftsmanship," and gone about my day. I appreciate Jamie Fraser explaining the historical context of the objects and what they can tell us about the cultures they were made in. This is why we have curators like this. And yes, Irving Finkel's cameo appearance is a perfect example of why I love British humor.
As if we don't see him he is present by tone and humor!, So, playing the servant , a new time he killed Us! Love those series by BM, unique in the World, and I m french🤗🙋
Thanks Jamie, I thoroughly enjoyed your talk/explanation. I studied Ancient History for 'A' level many moons ago, so was attracted to this topic. Sadly, we won't be able to visit the Museum while this is on, but if I ever get to the Museum, I will look for these wonderful items and remember your talk:-) Currently I'd be a good match for the 'most virile young servant'....Best wishes, Ruth in Brum.
Note that both these vessels are designed so that the user cannot put them down until the wine has been entirely consumed. Also please note that in at least this case the volume of the bowl standing in for the Persian royal cup seems to be less than that the serving device. The inevitable result will be the Persian king will be sitting there with a partially filled device in his right hand and a full bowl of wine in his left. Does the king drink and refill his bowl? Does he serve those sitting beside him? If he slips up after a couple of bowls of wine, does wine run all over the table? And we are told that, at that time, people enjoyed their meals while reclining on couches. So 1) reclining on one's left elbow, 2) holding the cup in the left hand, 3) the dispenser in the right hand and 4) bringing the bowl to the lips and actually drinking must have be quite a trick.
I think the wine goes straight into his mouth without the second bowl. That seems like what would be done by someone who uses a drinking cup that can't be set down until you've drunk all your wine.
@@rabbitsforyang8273 Yes, I agree. And the King's cupbearer would be serving first the King, and then the next-in-line-to-be-specially honoured dignitary. Whereas the Greek vessel may be more one-person (unless you do like the Scandinavians, whose drinking-horns went from person to person until empty).
ahahahaha, irving's cameo was perfect, but this was a very interesting curator's corner aside from that, it's very interesting to think how an object could influence a society and change it, and naturally it's a very interesting story. also it's very interesting knowing that griphons existed already in the 450 b.c. , it would be interesting to see a series on mythological animals and artifacts associated to them.
A fantastic episode ( although I don't ever recall one which was not interesting). As a Persian I always thought that we've had so much in common with the Greeks even though historically we were enemies. I never thought I would see Irving Finkle in a Ganymede role!
Personally, think luxury is being so respected at the British Museum that Irving Finkle is your wine servant. Also, luxury is drinking at work and no one says a word.
I don't know if anyone's commented on this, but I must say, I really appreciated how this particular presenter repeats his most important points so that they really stick in the mind and you know how it all fits together! And of course the practical presentation is also great.
I love this demonstration so much, I don't think I've ever fully seen a rhyton in action like that (with a surprise Finkle appearance, no less). Placing the objects in their social context, and in their comparative context, giving a sense of the transfer and transformation of ideas and values (especially that particularly enduring western phobia of eastern "decadence"), and makes them so much more meaningful than just interesting art objects on display. I live for any chance to see what can be sort of reverse-engineered of Achaemenid history by deconstructing Greek sources, I would love to see this exhibit, truly regret being on the wrong side of the Atlantic.
The wine spouting out of the chest made me think of how blood might flow if an animal were sacrificed. Was that part of the iconography of these objects? Were they intended to evoke ritual connotations?
Fascinating video! The beauty and detail of those two artifacts are amazing, as are the talent and imagination of the artists who created them. And I loved the cameo by the wonderful Dr. Irving Finkel. He's marvelous!
This was a really fantastic video! Some of the parallels and the differences between the two objects are quite striking at first glance already, but delving further reveals so much more not just about then, but about the times and the cultures overall. Really great work
i always get happy when you guys upload!! ready to learn something new today as well. Loved the humorous and fun way you explained this! Oh, and the cameo of Mr. Finkle was absolutely delightful!✨
Fascinating. The objects in Jamie's hands really come to life and tell their tales. Having been to the exhibition, I really appreciate the depth of information he managed to fit in a few minutes. I hope we can see more of you in future, Jamie.
Clicked on this while having my evening wine. Perfect timing! I love learning how ancient cultures enjoyed the same mundane things we enjoy today but in such interesting and dramatic ways.
Very interesting with humor! I remember Irving about how greek medicine was considering the Levant one. I've never seen a democracy, ceramic or silver, this is always elite's luxury. The Anatolian Rython reminds me those found in Thracian's treasures. As I'm living in South East Bulgaria.
Brilliant job as usual Jamie, you are a born educator, however keep an eye on that servant boy with a penchant for the contents of the rhyton Diana Freeman
Felt a bit Tomorrow's World (old UK tv series when demonstrations sometimes didn't go according to plan) when the demonstration kicked off. I liked this as it gives a bit of life behind the objects. Great job.
I'm almost certain that the Athenian drinking vessel represents an Eagle, most likely a Golden Eagle. The beak is too large for a falcon or a hawk, and the only vulture species in the Mediterranean region with a feathered head is the Lammergeier (also known as the Bearded Vulture), which is extremely distinctive and looks nothing like the artefact. Loved the Dr Irving Finkel cameo.
@Nnnoon If you knew what species you meant, then I could look into it, but without that info, I just have no idea what you're talking about. That description doesn't seem to match any Eurasian Hawk species I know of... but I admit I'm just an interested amateur and not a real expert. If you're talking about some really obscure species, then it's still more likely that the drinking vessel represents a Golden Eagle, as they're one of the the largest avian predators in much of Eurasia and are a well-known species throughout their range.
ok, far too busy right now - trying to find time to watch all this wonderful new content - was already enjoying immensely, thank you Jamie - before the young strapping servant bounded in... all my love to always wonderful Irving Finkle 💖💗💖 - to you both - *thank you* 🍷🥂🍷
For the “griffon” vessel, the placement of the opening and the way the wine gushes from that point makes me wonder if it was representing or symbolic of animal sacrifice.
Not to overshadow your wonderful presentation, Jamie, well done mate! But that cameo from our resident crazy uncle Finkle was the gold plate on our silver wine pourer 😂
I can appreciate the assessment of the two vessels. But what of the plebeian use of the Athenian drinking cup? Once filled, you can’t put it down. Which, to my mind, makes these vessels specific to drinking contests. And is there anything more indicative of drinking parties than chugging your draught faster than all others?
Well the greeks citizens had all slaves (in some source the poessing of slaves or at least servants is seen as the thing what makes you a citizen: be able to not work yourself and do politics/trade etc.) so they could have the vessel being held.
@@Tarnatos14 Often, finds are given hifalutin interpretations. “It’s a religious relic, used to honor the gods.” Speculating that ancients used the vessels in their drinking contests sort of humanizes them. Theta Kappa Epsilon frat boys then are not so different than their current day contemporaries.
@@Tarnatos14 Often, finds are given hifalutin interpretations. “It’s a religious relic, used to honor the gods.” Speculating that ancients used the vessels in their drinking contests sort of humanizes them. Theta Kappa Epsilon frat boys then are not so different than their current day contemporaries.
In serbian there is a saying, although mostly used by kids to ridicule other kids, due to its inherent sillyness) "ko se bije, taj se voli". it has multiple diferent, altough simmilar translations, most prominten are "who are fighting (each other), (they) are loving (each other)" or the, "who is beang beat(en), is being loved". The reason why I mention is that warfare between 2 groups, almost with a guarantee results in a shared influence. Rome is the prime example of that, they either responded with a new counter measure in occasion, in another sthraight up adopted thier enemies tactic, a lot of thier equipment arguably is ibero-celtic, and everything in between.
I'm having difficulty working out how the hawk cup works. How do you drink out of the bottom? They are both beautiful, and I'm so glad thy have lasted!.Wonderful presentation, thank you.
I was thinking "is that a sippy cup?!" but the thing is empty, so the "bottom" of the hawk cup is really the top edge. And you can't set the thing down once you fill it.
The interplay between Greek and Persian cultures was most famously illustrated by Aeschylus' play The Persians (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Persians?wprov=sfla1 ). Modern critics are divided: some think it sympathetic to the Persians, others that it's actually gloating over Persian defeat. I'd like to think the former, but both are possible IMO - it's like asking yourself, did Shakespeare really sympathise with Shylock, or was he just trying to make his baddie more interesting? Perhaps both at the same time - people are complicated...
There where not, at least not all if any. Maybe I'm also wrong, but as I know we only have some greek sources who say that, and for the persian court w ehave a bunch of administrative sources, which (again I'm maybe wrong myself) to my knowlodge dont speak about eunuchs.
The golden rhytons and the phiale at 7:58 min. are from the Panagyurishte Treasure. Which is from a slightly later period and possibly belonged to the Thracian king Seuthes III.
That Irving Finkle cameo was pure joy 🤣🤣🤣
Upstaged by the master
I mean he's got experience. He probably used to pour wine for these guys when he was a kid
Hilarious
@@imintheraindripdripdrophis younger image appeared in the tile mosaics under “virile, manly, young and strapping”
Fascinating history, excellent speaker. Demos cretos people power, this should be more widely-known.
Irv Finkel played the part of manservant with the greatest display of manliness and virility that I have ever seen.
I was not expecting that😂
4:52
What a strapping young lad xD
How can you mistake Irving Finkle of anything but youngest most virile?! He is amazing!
Thank you so much Jeremy for the amazingly educational session 🥰🥰
That strapping serving boy, keep an eye on him, he seems wise beyond his years. I've seen him rooting around the treasure rooms, playing board games when he should be working, and poking pointy sticks into mud. He's too smart and charismatic for his own good. A trouble maker and rabble rouser if ever I saw one.
There are many irresponsible youths in the palace these days.
I could have just looked at those two vessels and thought, "Wow, those are impressive. Great craftsmanship," and gone about my day. I appreciate Jamie Fraser explaining the historical context of the objects and what they can tell us about the cultures they were made in. This is why we have curators like this.
And yes, Irving Finkel's cameo appearance is a perfect example of why I love British humor.
I died. Irving is a national bloody treasure.
As if we don't see him he is present by tone and humor!, So, playing the servant , a new time he killed Us! Love those series by BM, unique in the World, and I m french🤗🙋
That guy is great, we need more of him
In he bounded. 😂❤
Read the description 😉
How can you send comments from the grave?
Im a Chinese, and it is fascinating to me listening to James' telling of these two objects. Thank you James Fraser, I am so going to see this exhibit
wonderful storytelling - with Irving Finkle as the icing on the cake! 🙂
Thanks Jamie, I thoroughly enjoyed your talk/explanation. I studied Ancient History for 'A' level many moons ago, so was attracted to this topic. Sadly, we won't be able to visit the Museum while this is on, but if I ever get to the Museum, I will look for these wonderful items and remember your talk:-) Currently I'd be a good match for the 'most virile young servant'....Best wishes, Ruth in Brum.
Note that both these vessels are designed so that the user cannot put them down until the wine has been entirely consumed. Also please note that in at least this case the volume of the bowl standing in for the Persian royal cup seems to be less than that the serving device. The inevitable result will be the Persian king will be sitting there with a partially filled device in his right hand and a full bowl of wine in his left. Does the king drink and refill his bowl? Does he serve those sitting beside him? If he slips up after a couple of bowls of wine, does wine run all over the table? And we are told that, at that time, people enjoyed their meals while reclining on couches. So 1) reclining on one's left elbow, 2) holding the cup in the left hand, 3) the dispenser in the right hand and 4) bringing the bowl to the lips and actually drinking must have be quite a trick.
I think the wine goes straight into his mouth without the second bowl. That seems like what would be done by someone who uses a drinking cup that can't be set down until you've drunk all your wine.
it would be the role of the king's cupbearer, not the king, to aim the wine and to keep it from being poisoned
@@rabbitsforyang8273 Yes, I agree. And the King's cupbearer would be serving first the King, and then the next-in-line-to-be-specially honoured dignitary. Whereas the Greek vessel may be more one-person (unless you do like the Scandinavians, whose drinking-horns went from person to person until empty).
@@lawrencecarlstrom3465 Like a wineskin is used in Spain! And part of the fun is passing it around without spilling any
I can't recall being so completely absorbed by this sort of presentation before. Really well done, thank you!
ahahahaha, irving's cameo was perfect, but this was a very interesting curator's corner aside from that, it's very interesting to think how an object could influence a society and change it, and naturally it's a very interesting story.
also it's very interesting knowing that griphons existed already in the 450 b.c. , it would be interesting to see a series on mythological animals and artifacts associated to them.
No, it's to think how a society could influence an object and remake it, by turning it upside down as it were.
A fantastic episode ( although I don't ever recall one which was not interesting). As a Persian I always thought that we've had so much in common with the Greeks even though historically we were enemies. I never thought I would see Irving Finkle in a Ganymede role!
Looking forward to the new exhibit, Persia to Greece.
Terrific video, as usual. And the special guest appearance by the indomitable Dr. Finkel was tremendous. 😂
I love old Persia cultures and his arts ❤️😘💯.
❤
Omg! You two were hilarious! Ivring played it perfectly! Love you Mr. Finkle!
Good choice having Irving Finkle being the strapping virile one :D This was a fascinating video. Thank you Jamie Fraser and all involved.
This is like if Monty Python became an archeological education show and I love it. Crying from laughing
Personally, think luxury is being so respected at the British Museum that Irving Finkle is your wine servant. Also, luxury is drinking at work and no one says a word.
I don't know if anyone's commented on this, but I must say, I really appreciated how this particular presenter repeats his most important points so that they really stick in the mind and you know how it all fits together! And of course the practical presentation is also great.
I love this demonstration so much, I don't think I've ever fully seen a rhyton in action like that (with a surprise Finkle appearance, no less). Placing the objects in their social context, and in their comparative context, giving a sense of the transfer and transformation of ideas and values (especially that particularly enduring western phobia of eastern "decadence"), and makes them so much more meaningful than just interesting art objects on display. I live for any chance to see what can be sort of reverse-engineered of Achaemenid history by deconstructing Greek sources, I would love to see this exhibit, truly regret being on the wrong side of the Atlantic.
The wine spouting out of the chest made me think of how blood might flow if an animal were sacrificed. Was that part of the iconography of these objects? Were they intended to evoke ritual connotations?
But that’s not a sacrificial animal such as a ram or a lamb. That’s a griffin. They’re semi-divine creatures.
This is pure genius! What a way to educate us! Laughing and learning - love it!
Fascinating video! The beauty and detail of those two artifacts are amazing, as are the talent and imagination of the artists who created them. And I loved the cameo by the wonderful Dr. Irving Finkel. He's marvelous!
I've grown to enjoy this channel very much. This channel never disappoints. ❤
Yay Prof Finkel!
I'm Persian and love the video
Great presentation! Love learning about ancient cultures.
Fascinating! Something new to me. Good insight well presented!
This was a really fantastic video! Some of the parallels and the differences between the two objects are quite striking at first glance already, but delving further reveals so much more not just about then, but about the times and the cultures overall. Really great work
i always get happy when you guys upload!! ready to learn something new today as well. Loved the humorous and fun way you explained this! Oh, and the cameo of Mr. Finkle was absolutely delightful!✨
The lovely Irving Finkel! Great addition to this video.
Great insight and the Irving Finkel servant gig was superb!
I love curators’ corners!
Absolutely fascinating. I've never heard or seen these objects before so I've learnt a lot. The explanation was tremendous. Thank you Jamie
Fascinating. The objects in Jamie's hands really come to life and tell their tales. Having been to the exhibition, I really appreciate the depth of information he managed to fit in a few minutes. I hope we can see more of you in future, Jamie.
That is some fantastic workmanship. The Persian wine rhyton was exquisite
Loved the finest bowl you could find in the canteen and the awesome performance of both Jamie and Irving! hahahah this made my day
Excellent! Thank you very much. ❤🎉
This was a lovely piece, thanks for all the hard work here.
As a Persian I find this discussion to be fascinating. Thanks for sharing
That was a very well presentation. Probably the most captivating historical story telling I’ve seen. Done give this man a documentary to direct!
Clicked on this while having my evening wine. Perfect timing! I love learning how ancient cultures enjoyed the same mundane things we enjoy today but in such interesting and dramatic ways.
Very interesting with humor! I remember Irving about how greek medicine was considering the Levant one. I've never seen a democracy, ceramic or silver, this is always elite's luxury. The Anatolian Rython reminds me those found in Thracian's treasures. As I'm living in South East Bulgaria.
Thank you. So interesting and so clearly expounded. Are there other examples of cross-cultural artisic influence?
How fun it must be to have Irving Finkle as a coworker!!!
Brilliant job as usual Jamie, you are a born educator, however keep an eye on that servant boy with a penchant for the contents of the rhyton
Diana Freeman
Also just loved the whole video and especially the demonstration!
what a terrific teaching model.thank-you.
He's a very good speaker.
@01:35 "... self-declared nemesis...." The Persian threat wasn't something the Hellenes just dreamed up.
these are the juicy details about history that I love the most! I want a bird mug now.
I saw Irving talk in Newburgh, NY back in I think 2011 or 12. It was standing room only and everyone was completely enthralled.
Felt a bit Tomorrow's World (old UK tv series when demonstrations sometimes didn't go according to plan) when the demonstration kicked off. I liked this as it gives a bit of life behind the objects. Great job.
I'm almost certain that the Athenian drinking vessel represents an Eagle, most likely a Golden Eagle. The beak is too large for a falcon or a hawk, and the only vulture species in the Mediterranean region with a feathered head is the Lammergeier (also known as the Bearded Vulture), which is extremely distinctive and looks nothing like the artefact. Loved the Dr Irving Finkel cameo.
And the Golden Eagle is an avatar of Zeus - here, the hooded figure almost seen at the end of the symposium in the empty rhyton.
@Nnnoon If you knew what species you meant, then I could look into it, but without that info, I just have no idea what you're talking about. That description doesn't seem to match any Eurasian Hawk species I know of... but I admit I'm just an interested amateur and not a real expert. If you're talking about some really obscure species, then it's still more likely that the drinking vessel represents a Golden Eagle, as they're one of the the largest avian predators in much of Eurasia and are a well-known species throughout their range.
This was wildly fascinating and extremely well-done!
Learned something new. Thank you for this.
I was lucky enough to visit the museum and see the exhibition, I can't overstate how good it was, what an amazing job!
Great work Jamie!
Excellent vibes, ty
Very interesting. Really enjoyed it. At 12:31 something you would find at a market in Tijuana 😊
This is the deepest, art history style response Ive heard for why there's novelty drinking cups lol.
There is no greater man of the world's nations than Irving ! Very instructive and entertaining session Jeremy.
this is most interesting thing i have seen this month. I am just an electritian, but i realy find it amazing. Good job
Very cool! That bird cup, in particular, is amazing!
This was so fantastic! Thank you!
A brilliant interpretation, James.
This is very interesting, and the pouring moment was way too good.
That. This was amazing. thank you.
thanks for giving this great insight. My girlfriend and me just started doing some pottery and this was quite inspiring.
I so want to hang with Jamie and Irving, drinking and playing the Royal Game of Ur whilst discussing the events of the day. Moo, Jamie!
Brilliant Video!
WHAT a presentation! Amazing!
This was so awesome to watch to
It was kind of you to to give them credit.
thank you for the video
ok, far too busy right now - trying to find time to watch all this wonderful new content - was already enjoying immensely, thank you Jamie - before the young strapping servant bounded in... all my love to always wonderful Irving Finkle 💖💗💖 - to you both - *thank you* 🍷🥂🍷
My only regret is that I can like this but once. The casting director deserves an Oscar.
@4:52 I was lmao for real because that joke had layers and the timing was perfect.
fun learning
For the “griffon” vessel, the placement of the opening and the way the wine gushes from that point makes me wonder if it was representing or symbolic of animal sacrifice.
Not to overshadow your wonderful presentation, Jamie, well done mate! But that cameo from our resident crazy uncle Finkle was the gold plate on our silver wine pourer 😂
I can appreciate the assessment of the two vessels. But what of the plebeian use of the Athenian drinking cup? Once filled, you can’t put it down. Which, to my mind, makes these vessels specific to drinking contests. And is there anything more indicative of drinking parties than chugging your draught faster than all others?
Well the greeks citizens had all slaves (in some source the poessing of slaves or at least servants is seen as the thing what makes you a citizen: be able to not work yourself and do politics/trade etc.) so they could have the vessel being held.
@@Tarnatos14 Often, finds are given hifalutin interpretations. “It’s a religious relic, used to honor the gods.” Speculating that ancients used the vessels in their drinking contests sort of humanizes them. Theta Kappa Epsilon frat boys then are not so different than their current day contemporaries.
@@Tarnatos14 Often, finds are given hifalutin interpretations. “It’s a religious relic, used to honor the gods.” Speculating that ancients used the vessels in their drinking contests sort of humanizes them. Theta Kappa Epsilon frat boys then are not so different than their current day contemporaries.
This episode was hilarious! Good job guys!😂😂😂😂
The hawk cup's ability to be viewed two ways reminds me of the "bunny/duck" optical illusion.
In serbian there is a saying, although mostly used by kids to ridicule other kids, due to its inherent sillyness) "ko se bije, taj se voli". it has multiple diferent, altough simmilar translations, most prominten are "who are fighting (each other), (they) are loving (each other)" or the, "who is beang beat(en), is being loved". The reason why I mention is that warfare between 2 groups, almost with a guarantee results in a shared influence. Rome is the prime example of that, they either responded with a new counter measure in occasion, in another sthraight up adopted thier enemies tactic, a lot of thier equipment arguably is ibero-celtic, and everything in between.
I'm having difficulty working out how the hawk cup works. How do you drink out of the bottom? They are both beautiful, and I'm so glad thy have lasted!.Wonderful presentation, thank you.
I was thinking "is that a sippy cup?!" but the thing is empty, so the "bottom" of the hawk cup is really the top edge. And you can't set the thing down once you fill it.
The interplay between Greek and Persian cultures was most famously illustrated by Aeschylus' play The Persians (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Persians?wprov=sfla1 ). Modern critics are divided: some think it sympathetic to the Persians, others that it's actually gloating over Persian defeat. I'd like to think the former, but both are possible IMO - it's like asking yourself, did Shakespeare really sympathise with Shylock, or was he just trying to make his baddie more interesting? Perhaps both at the same time - people are complicated...
Dr. Irving Finkel!!! I hope he got to finish the bottle!
4:47 Most virile servant? I thought the servants of the Achaemenid kings were eunuchs? Please correct me if I’m wrong
Killjoy.
There where not, at least not all if any. Maybe I'm also wrong, but as I know we only have some greek sources who say that, and for the persian court w ehave a bunch of administrative sources, which (again I'm maybe wrong myself) to my knowlodge dont speak about eunuchs.
The golden rhytons and the phiale at 7:58 min. are from the Panagyurishte Treasure. Which is from a slightly later period and possibly belonged to the Thracian king Seuthes III.
Super cool video!
Super!
Brilliant, thank you
Right on!
Irving has never looked so strapping. 😂
Very informative
The Irving Finkle cameo killed me oh my god--
love this
Sir, just marvelous 😊