Prior to my mission, I bought "This Land - Only One Cumorah" and was awe struck. I was still learning about the idea that the Nephites' main sphere would have been in the northern continent. During my mission, I drew a LOT of maps showing the obvious Mayan temples as the center of that influence. Today, I look back at that with some embarrassment, but now I see things very differently. There's so many evidences that point to a Hebraic society here, in the northern continent.
@@michaelmcvey9986I don't think that's true. Speculation is perfectly fine in many cases. But you should not base your testimony on things unless it is confirmed by that Spirit. That's what the anti Mormons refuse to understand.
I think it's all right, as long as you don't base your testimony on it. Some have based their testimony on the Yucatan model and have fallen away. The U.S. Heartland model sounds more plausible to me. But I only find it interesting. My testimony is by the Spirit and the treasured words and teachings of Jesus Christ I newly find each time I read.
That's not the position of a senior apostle... Elder Holland. Please watch and enjoy the conversation! ua-cam.com/video/pS3X9ciItLo/v-deo.htmlsi=7M32pgPVLQN9NB-0
This video should be required watching for all members of the Church! Wow! Just wow! this clarified so many small details that to me never quite made sense! Thank you so much for this!
And aside from not having time to write any of the articles, let alone sign them, according to Emma's last testimony, Joseph was incapable of writing a well drafted letter.
Is there anyway possible you guys can create a list of all the things that are changed or not talked about in the Saints book with the page number, in one column. And then in another column show where you can see the actual facts and proof that they changed it. Like the example you showed in this video. That would be super helpful.
The only way to do that would be a side-by-side comparison between the history depicted in the new Saints volume and prior Church History accounts. It would be a painstaking process, but could really demonstrate where there are differences. At this point our team doesn't have the time to do such a comprehensive work, but we would encourage any other interested parties to do so. Great comment.
The Nephites never had time to build extravagant temples made from hewn stone. That takes many years, manpower and peace in the land and they were basically always on the run and/or at war.
And nowhere are edifices made of stone mentioned in the text. Even King Niah's "palace" was said to be made primarily of wood. Mosiah 11:9 "And he also built him a spacious palace, and a throne in the midst thereof, all of which was of fine WOOD and was ornamented with gold and silver and with precious things."
Wayne May and Bruce Porter said the Israelites never raised the tool to cut stone as it was forbidden by The Law of Moses. Nor did they build steps to their altars but ramps. Exodus 20: 25,26 What little stone cutting they did had to be done below grade, like twelve oxen for a Baptismal font.
There is a modern equivalent to JS declaring his signature will be on official publications. President Nelson gave us a similar declaration when he told us nothing is official without the new seal on it. Then a letter went out, missing the seal and any mention of the Savior. People declared the letter a direct commandment, then used it to condemn the non compliant. Times move on and people stay the same
Hello Rod and friends, Is it possible that the central and meso american inhabitants are actually descendants of the nephite descendants that made their way to the lands southwards when the fiery serpents came during third nephi after he seals the earth that it brings forth no fruit, but a famine? just curios. I've always been more of a heartlands than meso/ central overall.
Take a look at the Native American stories about Kentucky. I think it'll blow you mind. Additionally, the Eastern Band of the Cherokee have long asserted that they came from Israel. They've been dismissed forEVER on this subject, but having spoken directly to a tribal member, he was excited to know I was a member of the Church. He said, "You're the only group of Christians who BELIEVE us!" As far as the cultures that arose in Meso-America, the dates and their stories are different than those of the northern continent. Maya culture and religion has some uncanny resemblance to the Hindu. Aztec came from in or around Baja California. Additionally, the Aztec state that they discovered Teotihuacan ("place where gods were born"). It may be that Teotihuacan (the site) was originally a Nephite city, since it's dates do match well with the Nephite timeline; but it could also be Jaredite. In any case, it's hard to point to those cultures as having a direct connection to the Nephites, since they lack the Hebraic foundations and evidences we see in the northern continent.
That is awesome. When I was serving in The Great Montana Billings Mission I served up in Poplar for a month and One of the branch members who was Native mentioned a story passed down from like her great great grand dad or something like that.(She looked white and I assumed natives were darker skin tone at the time) When she told me the story it matched exactly to the story of the resurrected Christ visiting the Nephites; hence why i always leaned towards the heartland model. I did not know about the Aztec being related to the Hindu culture I will have to check that out. Also do you know the tribe in kentucky? WOuld love to check that out. @@kz6fittycent
The Nephites and Lamanites began in North America. Through marriage and migration there are traces of Lehi's blood all over North, South and Central America. The Mayans in about 800 AD were forced out of their homes by drought or famine and they joined the Lamanites most likely up the Mississippi and interacted. The Native American Chiefs of America call the Maya the Snake People who enslaved the ancient Lamanites and then went back to Mayan territory, according to Wayne May and Rod Meldrum.
Rod covers this in detail in his DVD titled The Hinterland Hypothesis, available on sale for a limited time in the Bookstore at www.bookofmormonevidence.org. Rod covers the many temple dedicatory prayers where the prayer specifically mentions serving the remnants of the Lamanites in the temple. Please get a copy of the DVD online, watch the entire 2 hour presentation and we feel it will address all your questions.
"If there are mistakes they are the mistakes of men." 35:48. Mistake by scribes and editors between messenger Nephi and Messenger Moroni. 36:23. The Messenger at Fayette. 37:12. The Messenger and Mary Whitmer: "I am Brother Nephi". 39:30. The contrasting appearances between Nephi and Moroni. 39:52 Whitmer meets both Nephi and Moroni. It makes sense that Moroni, son of Mormon the abridger, would deliver the abridged part. (Mosiah through Moroni.) There ought to be gospel art of Moroni and Nephi in the Repository room with records stacked along the walls, sitting in council as the 116 pages fiasco was happening. The small plates are on the table in front of them and angels all around. "We've got this!" 😀
We would love to see an artists rendition of what you described! Artist David Lindsley did a remake of an iconic painting of Mormon finishing the record with a more accurate Heartland setting depicted. From this... images.app.goo.gl/GunfKVsvqhuyJN2m8 to this... images.app.goo.gl/LWV9Dgd9P9otUERr5 And artist Jon McNaughton did another incredible painting of the repository of records here... jonmcnaughton.com/mormon-abridging-the-plates-10x15-litho-open-edition/
aninteresting point about south america iconography is that they are more akin to india temples than anything related to jewish or egyptian. recent research found that early indian diviniry had separeted and move across the planet to avoid an other war( mahabarata) south american pyramid werelikely built by indian native beforethe flood
Yes, Scott Christopher is a good friend of filmmaker Kels Goodman who had Scott do a spoof video, Discovering History, involving Scott Wolter of the History Channel's America Unearthed series. Scott is a paid professional actor but when it comes to his work with Scripture Central, we don't know if he's being paid or if he really believes in the Mesoamerica model. He's a highly recognizable actor in the LDS community and a truly nice guy.
You guys are great but the things you are saying about two sets of plates does not make sense to me in light of what is said in Words of Mormon. You guys are ripping through this stuff quickly as if I know what you are talking about and you’re leaving me completely confused about this issue.
In march 15, Joseph smith also wrote in the times and seasons that he specifically had nothing to do with the previous paper. The previous paper had the book of Abraham, the first vision account, and the articles of faith. What exactly did he not agree with in the previous paper? I don't know, but I will say the book of Abraham has been a thorn in the church's side, so has the various versions of the first vision. I wish we knew more about what he was thinking.
But if you read the different accounts of the First Vision, side by side, you will find that they all collaborate. It's a wonderful experience to do so and I highly recommend it. Joseph told these accounts to o different friends. You know how you might share the same experience with different friends adding a few different details or using different words to say the same thing, depending on your relationship with them and your perception of their comprehension skills? Read them all together and get a holistic picture. The Book of Abraham has never been a "thorn in the church's side.". It is a blessing as we have received more insight into Abraham's life. I don't know what your personal concerns are, so I recommend looking at Hugh Nibley's book, Abraham in Egypt. I'm sure it will address all of your questions.
We couldn't agree more with wishing we knew more about exactly how Joseph was thinking... but we can better understand what he was thinking by what he actually did in action. For example, when the Lord commanded him to send the first four missionaries "unto the Lamanites" in D&C 28, 30, 32, he didn't send them to Mexico, Guatemala or South Ametica, but rather to New York, Ohio and Missouri, never to Central or South America.
At about 39 minutes into the program yoy are discussing how Nephi son of Nephi was one of the Three Nephites who tarried. That could not possibly be true. See the heading to 3rd Nephi chapter 1 written by Mormon. Then see the heading to 4th Nephi. Then read 4th Nephi verse 19: "19 And it came to pass that Nephi, he that kept this last record, (and he kept it upon the plates of Nephi) died,..." Nephi DIED! He could not have been one of the Three Nephites!
Nephi was chosen as one of Christs 12 Disciples in 34 AD. When were The Three Nephites first on the earth? When did Nephi die in 4 Nephi 19? Did Nephi die or was he translated? All three Nephites were taken away from the Nephites and Lamanites in about 300 AD.
The Nephi that was one of the disciples that was blessed to never die by Christ during His visit to the Nephites is not the same Nephi at the end of the Book. It was the last Nephi that died, not the former Nephi.
I'm continually dumbfounded by the Meso believers. They show the great stone pyramids, like Chichen Itza but ignore the details of the same. When you go to Chichen Itza you see engravings in the stones of the pagan religion of the Maya. The pyramid itself, entirely was built to illustrate their gods of a bird, a snake and astronomy. The pyramid features a shadow of a snake descending it on the solstices. When you clap your hands in the area between the pyramid and the adjacent stone structures, am echo sound like a bird is heard. It is well known the pyramid was built to conduct human sacrifice at its top. I'm sorry, but this was never a Nephite temple, building or any other Nephite structure, and was not modeled after one either. It is 100% Mayan construction, likely in a time period post BofM era. So the vast majority of great stone structures in MesoAmerica could not be Nephite in any way shape or form. Now, one could argue that the Lamanites possessed the building technology learned previously from Nephites and built them post BofM era and even increased in knowledge of architecture and astronomy over time. But that flies in the face of what the BoM teaches. It teaches that the Lamanites were a loathsome, idol people. To imagine they built even greater structures and increased greater technology after the Nephites were gone makes no sense at all. Finally, while the Hebrews often build primary structures of stone in the old world, they do not build pyramids. Using stone is of course a necessity in Judea as large timber is practically non-existent. The heartland of America, by extreme contrast is filled with plentiful, excellent timber for building; indeed a promised land by comparison. The Book Of Mormon specifically mentions earthen mounds with wooden structures on top. It never mentions stone pyramids. Just another set of a plethora of facts that favors North America and not Meso for BofM setting. Now, many Church members in Latin America feel strongly they have Lamanite ancestry. With the Heartland model, it is not impossible or even improbable that this is true. Afterall, knowing that archeology has shown that there is a dominant race of people in the Americas with Asian DNA, it is quite plausible that they existed in Meso and South America before the BofM era. These cultures in fact over time became very large and technologically advanced. It is probable at least small groups of them ventured north prior, during and after the Nephite era. In fact, it seems logical to me that given the technological superiority and population size of Meso American tribes compared to the post BoM Lamanite remnants, it is probable that they came north and mixed with and/or captured Lamanites and carried them back to Meso and South America. Or the opposite, Lamanites wandered south and mixed with Meso American and other southward cultures. This Lamanite blood could be sprinkled into many possible regions in the America since ancient times.
Are you two going to do an archaeological dig for 'lord of the rings' evidence next? Because everyone knows the BoM is just as fictional as 'lord of the rings,' or 'dracula' or 'star wars'
@@richarner3856 if you have any scrap of evidence have it peer reviewed and go collect your Nobel prize. As we both know there’s no evidence for any of it …because it’s made up
Prior to my mission, I bought "This Land - Only One Cumorah" and was awe struck. I was still learning about the idea that the Nephites' main sphere would have been in the northern continent. During my mission, I drew a LOT of maps showing the obvious Mayan temples as the center of that influence. Today, I look back at that with some embarrassment, but now I see things very differently. There's so many evidences that point to a Hebraic society here, in the northern continent.
The church has no stand on this, and say we should not speculate about this. The only way to know is by the Spirit.
@@michaelmcvey9986I don't think that's true. Speculation is perfectly fine in many cases. But you should not base your testimony on things unless it is confirmed by that Spirit. That's what the anti Mormons refuse to understand.
I think it's all right, as long as you don't base your testimony on it. Some have based their testimony on the Yucatan model and have fallen away. The U.S. Heartland model sounds more plausible to me. But I only find it interesting. My testimony is by the Spirit and the treasured words and teachings of Jesus Christ I newly find each time I read.
That's not the position of a senior apostle... Elder Holland. Please watch and enjoy the conversation!
ua-cam.com/video/pS3X9ciItLo/v-deo.htmlsi=7M32pgPVLQN9NB-0
Thanks for sharing!
This video should be required watching for all members of the Church! Wow! Just wow! this clarified so many small details that to me never quite made sense! Thank you so much for this!
Thank you for your time and interest. We obviously feel the same!
Love it Rod and Jonathan. They are an awesome team.
Ahh... THANKS! 😊
Dynamic Duo
I really appreciate your research and videos. I can now recognize when Gospel teachers have been influenced by progressive sources.
so happy to see that you're enjoying these! what stands out the most between the progressive sources and learning from our content?
Excellent additional details. Thank you for taking the time to share all this extra information.
Glad it was helpful!
And aside from not having time to write any of the articles, let alone sign them, according to Emma's last testimony, Joseph was incapable of writing a well drafted letter.
Is there anyway possible you guys can create a list of all the things that are changed or not talked about in the Saints book with the page number, in one column. And then in another column show where you can see the actual facts and proof that they changed it. Like the example you showed in this video. That would be super helpful.
I will see what can be done
The only way to do that would be a side-by-side comparison between the history depicted in the new Saints volume and prior Church History accounts. It would be a painstaking process, but could really demonstrate where there are differences.
At this point our team doesn't have the time to do such a comprehensive work, but we would encourage any other interested parties to do so.
Great comment.
Wonderful info, but hard to follow because Ron kept interrupting the guest speaker.
There was a lot of back and forth. Sorry if Rod interrupted more than he should have.
The Nephites never had time to build extravagant temples made from hewn stone. That takes many years, manpower and peace in the land and they were basically always on the run and/or at war.
And nowhere are edifices made of stone mentioned in the text. Even King Niah's "palace" was said to be made primarily of wood. Mosiah 11:9 "And he also built him a spacious palace, and a throne in the midst thereof, all of which was of fine WOOD and was ornamented with gold and silver and with precious things."
@@BookofMormonEvidence .... and no doubt, a little cement. Adobe or cob - like cement. :>)
Wayne May and Bruce Porter said the Israelites never raised the tool to cut stone as it was forbidden by The Law of Moses. Nor did they build steps to their altars but ramps. Exodus 20: 25,26
What little stone cutting they did had to be done below grade, like twelve oxen for a Baptismal font.
What is the significance of your blue t-shirts? What do they say and where can I get one?
There is a modern equivalent to JS declaring his signature will be on official publications. President Nelson gave us a similar declaration when he told us nothing is official without the new seal on it. Then a letter went out, missing the seal and any mention of the Savior. People declared the letter a direct commandment, then used it to condemn the non compliant.
Times move on and people stay the same
Hello Rod and friends, Is it possible that the central and meso american inhabitants are actually descendants of the nephite descendants that made their way to the lands southwards when the fiery serpents came during third nephi after he seals the earth that it brings forth no fruit, but a famine? just curios. I've always been more of a heartlands than meso/ central overall.
Take a look at the Native American stories about Kentucky. I think it'll blow you mind. Additionally, the Eastern Band of the Cherokee have long asserted that they came from Israel. They've been dismissed forEVER on this subject, but having spoken directly to a tribal member, he was excited to know I was a member of the Church. He said, "You're the only group of Christians who BELIEVE us!"
As far as the cultures that arose in Meso-America, the dates and their stories are different than those of the northern continent. Maya culture and religion has some uncanny resemblance to the Hindu. Aztec came from in or around Baja California. Additionally, the Aztec state that they discovered Teotihuacan ("place where gods were born"). It may be that Teotihuacan (the site) was originally a Nephite city, since it's dates do match well with the Nephite timeline; but it could also be Jaredite. In any case, it's hard to point to those cultures as having a direct connection to the Nephites, since they lack the Hebraic foundations and evidences we see in the northern continent.
That is awesome. When I was serving in The Great Montana Billings Mission I served up in Poplar for a month and One of the branch members who was Native mentioned a story passed down from like her great great grand dad or something like that.(She looked white and I assumed natives were darker skin tone at the time) When she told me the story it matched exactly to the story of the resurrected Christ visiting the Nephites; hence why i always leaned towards the heartland model. I did not know about the Aztec being related to the Hindu culture I will have to check that out. Also do you know the tribe in kentucky? WOuld love to check that out. @@kz6fittycent
The Nephites and Lamanites began in North America. Through marriage and migration there are traces of Lehi's blood all over North, South and Central America. The Mayans in about 800 AD were forced out of their homes by drought or famine and they joined the Lamanites most likely up the Mississippi and interacted. The Native American Chiefs of America call the Maya the Snake People who enslaved the ancient Lamanites and then went back to Mayan territory, according to Wayne May and Rod Meldrum.
Rod covers this in detail in his DVD titled The Hinterland Hypothesis, available on sale for a limited time in the Bookstore at www.bookofmormonevidence.org. Rod covers the many temple dedicatory prayers where the prayer specifically mentions serving the remnants of the Lamanites in the temple. Please get a copy of the DVD online, watch the entire 2 hour presentation and we feel it will address all your questions.
"If there are mistakes they are the mistakes of men."
35:48. Mistake by scribes and editors between messenger Nephi and Messenger Moroni.
36:23. The Messenger at Fayette.
37:12. The Messenger and Mary Whitmer: "I am Brother Nephi".
39:30. The contrasting appearances between Nephi and Moroni.
39:52 Whitmer meets both Nephi and Moroni.
It makes sense that Moroni, son of Mormon the abridger, would deliver the abridged part.
(Mosiah through Moroni.)
There ought to be gospel art of Moroni and Nephi in the Repository room with records stacked along the walls, sitting in council as the 116 pages fiasco was happening. The small plates are on the table in front of them and angels all around. "We've got this!" 😀
We would love to see an artists rendition of what you described! Artist David Lindsley did a remake of an iconic painting of Mormon finishing the record with a more accurate Heartland setting depicted.
From this... images.app.goo.gl/GunfKVsvqhuyJN2m8
to this... images.app.goo.gl/LWV9Dgd9P9otUERr5
And artist Jon McNaughton did another incredible painting of the repository of records here...
jonmcnaughton.com/mormon-abridging-the-plates-10x15-litho-open-edition/
bookofmormonartcatalog.org/artists/lindsley-david/
aninteresting point about south america iconography is that they are more akin to india temples than anything related to jewish or egyptian. recent research found that early indian diviniry had separeted and move across the planet to avoid an other war( mahabarata) south american pyramid werelikely built by indian native beforethe flood
Just saw Scott Campbell the actor with his own show. I thought that he was a Heartlander or is he just showing possibilities?
Yes, Scott Christopher is a good friend of filmmaker Kels Goodman who had Scott do a spoof video, Discovering History, involving Scott Wolter of the History Channel's America Unearthed series.
Scott is a paid professional actor but when it comes to his work with Scripture Central, we don't know if he's being paid or if he really believes in the Mesoamerica model. He's a highly recognizable actor in the LDS community and a truly nice guy.
You guys are great but the things you are saying about two sets of plates does not make sense to me in light of what is said in Words of Mormon. You guys are ripping through this stuff quickly as if I know what you are talking about and you’re leaving me completely confused about this issue.
In march 15, Joseph smith also wrote in the times and seasons that he specifically had nothing to do with the previous paper. The previous paper had the book of Abraham, the first vision account, and the articles of faith. What exactly did he not agree with in the previous paper? I don't know, but I will say the book of Abraham has been a thorn in the church's side, so has the various versions of the first vision. I wish we knew more about what he was thinking.
But if you read the different accounts of the First Vision, side by side, you will find that they all collaborate. It's a wonderful experience to do so and I highly recommend it. Joseph told these accounts to o different friends. You know how you might share the same experience with different friends adding a few different details or using different words to say the same thing, depending on your relationship with them and your perception of their comprehension skills? Read them all together and get a holistic picture. The Book of Abraham has never been a "thorn in the church's side.". It is a blessing as we have received more insight into Abraham's life. I don't know what your personal concerns are, so I recommend looking at Hugh Nibley's book, Abraham in Egypt. I'm sure it will address all of your questions.
We couldn't agree more with wishing we knew more about exactly how Joseph was thinking... but we can better understand what he was thinking by what he actually did in action. For example, when the Lord commanded him to send the first four missionaries "unto the Lamanites" in D&C 28, 30, 32, he didn't send them to Mexico, Guatemala or South Ametica, but rather to New York, Ohio and Missouri, never to Central or South America.
At about 39 minutes into the program yoy are discussing how Nephi son of Nephi was one of the Three Nephites who tarried. That could not possibly be true. See the heading to 3rd Nephi chapter 1 written by Mormon. Then see the heading to 4th Nephi. Then read 4th Nephi verse 19:
"19 And it came to pass that Nephi, he that kept this last record, (and he kept it upon the plates of Nephi) died,..."
Nephi DIED! He could not have been one of the Three Nephites!
Nephi was chosen as one of Christs 12 Disciples in 34 AD. When were The Three Nephites first on the earth? When did Nephi die in 4 Nephi 19? Did Nephi die or was he translated? All three Nephites were taken away from the Nephites and Lamanites in about 300 AD.
The Nephi that was one of the disciples that was blessed to never die by Christ during His visit to the Nephites is not the same Nephi at the end of the Book. It was the last Nephi that died, not the former Nephi.
I'm continually dumbfounded by the Meso believers. They show the great stone pyramids, like Chichen Itza but ignore the details of the same. When you go to Chichen Itza you see engravings in the stones of the pagan religion of the Maya. The pyramid itself, entirely was built to illustrate their gods of a bird, a snake and astronomy. The pyramid features a shadow of a snake descending it on the solstices. When you clap your hands in the area between the pyramid and the adjacent stone structures, am echo sound like a bird is heard. It is well known the pyramid was built to conduct human sacrifice at its top. I'm sorry, but this was never a Nephite temple, building or any other Nephite structure, and was not modeled after one either. It is 100% Mayan construction, likely in a time period post BofM era. So the vast majority of great stone structures in MesoAmerica could not be Nephite in any way shape or form.
Now, one could argue that the Lamanites possessed the building technology learned previously from Nephites and built them post BofM era and even increased in knowledge of architecture and astronomy over time. But that flies in the face of what the BoM teaches. It teaches that the Lamanites were a loathsome, idol people. To imagine they built even greater structures and increased greater technology after the Nephites were gone makes no sense at all.
Finally, while the Hebrews often build primary structures of stone in the old world, they do not build pyramids. Using stone is of course a necessity in Judea as large timber is practically non-existent. The heartland of America, by extreme contrast is filled with plentiful, excellent timber for building; indeed a promised land by comparison. The Book Of Mormon specifically mentions earthen mounds with wooden structures on top. It never mentions stone pyramids. Just another set of a plethora of facts that favors North America and not Meso for BofM setting.
Now, many Church members in Latin America feel strongly they have Lamanite ancestry. With the Heartland model, it is not impossible or even improbable that this is true. Afterall, knowing that archeology has shown that there is a dominant race of people in the Americas with Asian DNA, it is quite plausible that they existed in Meso and South America before the BofM era. These cultures in fact over time became very large and technologically advanced. It is probable at least small groups of them ventured north prior, during and after the Nephite era. In fact, it seems logical to me that given the technological superiority and population size of Meso American tribes compared to the post BoM Lamanite remnants, it is probable that they came north and mixed with and/or captured Lamanites and carried them back to Meso and South America. Or the opposite, Lamanites wandered south and mixed with Meso American and other southward cultures. This Lamanite blood could be sprinkled into many possible regions in the America since ancient times.
Are you two going to do an archaeological dig for 'lord of the rings' evidence next? Because everyone knows the BoM is just as fictional as 'lord of the rings,' or 'dracula' or 'star wars'
Not everyone knows what you claim, millions know it's the truth.
Millions know it complete fiction @BookofMormonEvidence
@@richarner3856 if you have any scrap of evidence have it peer reviewed and go collect your Nobel prize. As we both know there’s no evidence for any of it …because it’s made up