B*ll*cks. Someone beat me. And it was ten years ago. If you like this type of content and you want to see it more often, consider signing up for Channel Membership: / @danworrall
Hi Dan. Hope you are on the mend and your new meds are working well. Just wondering if there is an example of the least loud song out there somewhere... wondering if such an example could be musical as (in order to claim quietest mix) it would have to have very low dynamic range. I suppose also that one would require a very loud amplifier to enjoy such a work.
@DanWorrall Hello Dan. Would there be a chance that you will review Luna from UAD? I know it is Mac exclusive, but comes with bunch of plugins that may be worth to look at?
The highest possible LUFS a piece of audio can have is +6.4 LUFS (approximately, there's some slight variance due to some subjectivity in how LUFS meters should be implemented). I demonstrate this and explain why this is the case in the latest video on my channel, indirectly in response to this video. I briefly explain how the LUFS algorithm works and how this can be used to mathematically determine the "loudest" possible audio according to this measurement standard.
I saw the video and was really impressed with the technical expertise you showed to achieve these numbers. Shows that the LUFS measuring is but an approximation after all. I admit, I am a little sad we will never have +14LUFS just for the memes. 🥲
It's funny bc iirc, Five Star Hotel was achieving loudness on Gray Data by literally just pushing the output bus into the red, no special tools just DAW volume knobs They've stopped doing that on later albums lol
I'm curious, then, not what the loudest song you could mix is, however, what is the loudest signal of any kind that you can make? I ask this because when I first installed Bias FX and opened it, it began to blast a sound I can only describe as distorted metal pans banging together, but the volume level must have been multiplied by the average student loan debt. After having a small heart attack, I exported a recording of this signal in FLAC and checked the loudness, and it measured an insane 81.2 LUFS. The loudest song I can recall, Mumbai Power by Skrillex, measures at -3. Needless to say, I was quite impressed. It's not every day a plugin expereinces a catastrophic error which could permanently damage the user.
I actually gave a maths talk inspire by the video! Turns out you can actually get *arbitrarily* loud with full scale samples: if your samples are (..., -1, +1, -1, +1, +1, -1, +1, -1, ...) with a repeated one in the middle, your intersample peak shoots up as roughly the log of the number of samples before it (the proof is actually quite simple!). Maybe someone could take a look at making a song with this?
Also, the loudness war is not a competition for the highest peak level, rather the highest average level, weighted by frequency. 22.05KHz will be weighted much lower than stuff around 3k, so this probably wouldn't read very high in terms of LUFS.
@@DanWorrall Of course it's mostly sinusoidal, but I found that using it as a waveform input to various synths still yields very loud (and surprisingly harmonically rich) results. Also, since the filter for LUFS is constant, it just scales down the result, but as we can make it arbitrarily loud (ofc assuming a perfect DAC), this just means we need more samples for the same loudness!
@@DanWorrallThat's a very good point. Since the peak grows quite slowly, there should be a loudest length of the pure waveform. I'll have a look for how I could maximise the loudness for lower frequency waves: experiments have shown that transposing the sound down still seems to have arbitrary large peaks, but I haven't proven that yet... Maybe a future talk 😂
I'm having flashbacks to living in Bristol with a gabber loving housemate on the brink of psychosis, being visited by my ex, who was almost in full blown section-me-now psychosis, 24/7 gabber! Parallel Deserts is unspeakably loud... Parallel Deserts has won this battle, but The Loudness War probably won't end on a musical level until someone decides to use a volcanic eruption, nuclear explosion or the impact of a solar system ending event as a musical element. Even then... it doesn't really count if it destroys everything in our known existence, including the recording. Eh.
Hey Dan! I don’t really care about them or whoever won that so called war. All I want is that you continue providing useful information which the so called winner doesn’t. All the best !
More energy around the 3k region presumably, as Loudness Units are frequency weighted. It doesn't actually sound louder to my ears, both are equally obnoxious...
@@DanWorrall The algorithm for determining loudness uses a high-shelving filter with corner frequency around 2kHz, which in theory would mean that a sped/pitched up nightcore version of 'I Won The Loudness War' could claim the victory ;)
I saw a video earlier where he got it to the mathematical maximum LUFS integrated. It was something like +6.4. Only thing is, the sound was silence, it was just one tone at the nyquist frequency
"Unsubscribe" 😐. Man, this is such a disappointment. (Parallel deserts sounds like what you feel at 5am when you wander drunk in front of the speaker at a very niche drum and bass festival).
@@Arcessitor i think it was a pac-mans fault originally... with them electronic sound fx, dark hallways, flashing light environments, whilst eating all sorts of different "candies" and "keys" that made the game... typical todays disco
im sure you can't even claim the full sample scale crown because of the existence of certain ZX spextrum tracks, unless they aren't full scale despite being binary
Well, subjectively, yours actually sounds like a song. There’s melody, there’s clear percussive elements and it doesn’t ever give a clipping/white noise vibe. Alas, that does not win a Guinness World Record, but at least I know which track I will actually enjoy unironically.
Thanks for the reference. Well, Parallel Desserts might have the crown for now, but isn't it possible that some other song could overtake it? Maybe some other attempt you might produce? Wanted to mention, the beginning of your first take at the loudness war brought to mind some sounds in the beginning of Acid Rain by Lorn. Powerful stuff.
I am not sure if this logo is new, or just new to me, but in my opinion, it is a misstep. Rather than evoke equalizer bars it evokes a craving for something tasty and Halal-certified. Inexperienced or shoddy graphic designers will round the corners on rectangles, primarily because the software allows them to. I find this beyond off-brand for this channel. It is the design equivalent of the exact kind of practice that, were it audio-related, Dan Worrall would surgically dismantle in one of his videos.
ZX spectrum games/demos do a lot of fun stuff with a single digital output. They would be effectively full scale at every sample. eg ua-cam.com/video/gNc_xczyGLc/v-deo.html
got a lot of respect for a man who can admit theyre wrong. sorry to hear the loudness war continues
but can you really hear it when it's so loud?
So much pain, so much death, so much compression... when will the limiting end???
@@damiana5268 Why? Participate fam. Im ab to upload a rap song at -2 lufs integrated
😂 Brilliant! 👏👏 The fact you made this video is "cooler" than the claim 💜
Hi Dan. Hope you are on the mend and your new meds are working well. Just wondering if there is an example of the least loud song out there somewhere... wondering if such an example could be musical as (in order to claim quietest mix) it would have to have very low dynamic range. I suppose also that one would require a very loud amplifier to enjoy such a work.
I think maybe John Cage won that one already...
Judge me, but I found Parallel Deserts unironically interesting. The clipping brings a lot of charm to the tune
same, I just wish I could listen to it from start to finish without my ears starting to bleed
@@TheAtomicTom just lower the volume
@@offsetemusic I did, but it's still super fatiguing to my ears. I can only listen to 40 second chunks
@@TheAtomicTomholy shit, I thought you were being dramatic. I lasted about 60 seconds with the volume incredibly low.
@@saent_bass Same. I don't think I've ever listened to anything at that low volume
Svdden Death's Terrible measured at +4 for me. That was a while back so I am not sure if what im saying holdsup
Please do the new Izotope Trash 3.
@DanWorrall Hello Dan. Would there be a chance that you will review Luna from UAD? I know it is Mac exclusive, but comes with bunch of plugins that may be worth to look at?
Yes, either when they make a Windows version or when I get some kind of Mac, whichever happens sooner.
@DanWorrall let me know if I can be of service.
@@DanWorrall in beta for Windows and Mac now
The hearing loss war continues😂😂
war is still a champ in that tho
lmfaooo
Hey, at least you can still claim you have the loudest song in terms of RMS sound power! 😉
Dan Worrall: The saviour of many a MacBook speaker
The highest possible LUFS a piece of audio can have is +6.4 LUFS (approximately, there's some slight variance due to some subjectivity in how LUFS meters should be implemented).
I demonstrate this and explain why this is the case in the latest video on my channel, indirectly in response to this video. I briefly explain how the LUFS algorithm works and how this can be used to mathematically determine the "loudest" possible audio according to this measurement standard.
I saw the video and was really impressed with the technical expertise you showed to achieve these numbers. Shows that the LUFS measuring is but an approximation after all.
I admit, I am a little sad we will never have +14LUFS just for the memes. 🥲
It's funny bc iirc, Five Star Hotel was achieving loudness on Gray Data by literally just pushing the output bus into the red, no special tools just DAW volume knobs
They've stopped doing that on later albums lol
I really enjoy the musicality of ""I won the loudness war"" and I want more of that... please make more for our visceral experience. Thank you
I'm curious, then, not what the loudest song you could mix is, however, what is the loudest signal of any kind that you can make? I ask this because when I first installed Bias FX and opened it, it began to blast a sound I can only describe as distorted metal pans banging together, but the volume level must have been multiplied by the average student loan debt. After having a small heart attack, I exported a recording of this signal in FLAC and checked the loudness, and it measured an insane 81.2 LUFS. The loudest song I can recall, Mumbai Power by Skrillex, measures at -3. Needless to say, I was quite impressed. It's not every day a plugin expereinces a catastrophic error which could permanently damage the user.
At least I now know LUFS is calculated with a weighting, without looking it up.
I actually gave a maths talk inspire by the video! Turns out you can actually get *arbitrarily* loud with full scale samples: if your samples are (..., -1, +1, -1, +1, +1, -1, +1, -1, ...) with a repeated one in the middle, your intersample peak shoots up as roughly the log of the number of samples before it (the proof is actually quite simple!). Maybe someone could take a look at making a song with this?
That's very interesting. However, apart from the repeated sample, that's a sine wave at Nyquist, right? I'm not sure that counts as music anymore!
Also, the loudness war is not a competition for the highest peak level, rather the highest average level, weighted by frequency. 22.05KHz will be weighted much lower than stuff around 3k, so this probably wouldn't read very high in terms of LUFS.
@@DanWorrall Of course it's mostly sinusoidal, but I found that using it as a waveform input to various synths still yields very loud (and surprisingly harmonically rich) results. Also, since the filter for LUFS is constant, it just scales down the result, but as we can make it arbitrarily loud (ofc assuming a perfect DAC), this just means we need more samples for the same loudness!
@@harlanconnor more samples will increase that intersample peak, but also reduce the integrated (average) loudness of the whole file.
@@DanWorrallThat's a very good point. Since the peak grows quite slowly, there should be a loudest length of the pure waveform. I'll have a look for how I could maximise the loudness for lower frequency waves: experiments have shown that transposing the sound down still seems to have arbitrary large peaks, but I haven't proven that yet... Maybe a future talk 😂
The 'bollocks' 😂😂😂
We still LUFS you Dan.
The war isn’t over yet!
I'm having flashbacks to living in Bristol with a gabber loving housemate on the brink of psychosis, being visited by my ex, who was almost in full blown section-me-now psychosis, 24/7 gabber! Parallel Deserts is unspeakably loud... Parallel Deserts has won this battle, but The Loudness War probably won't end on a musical level until someone decides to use a volcanic eruption, nuclear explosion or the impact of a solar system ending event as a musical element. Even then... it doesn't really count if it destroys everything in our known existence, including the recording. Eh.
This was all about taking the piss on the loudness war anyway. All in good fun.
That Five Star Hotel album is really good, nice to see this little crossover between a youtuber I enjoy and an artist I enjoy.
Hey Dan! I don’t really care about them or whoever won that so called war. All I want is that you continue providing useful information which the so called winner doesn’t. All the best !
I've got a "tune" that hits about +20 it's not the nicest piece of music I've written, but the lufs are ridiculous
Can you explain how it can be louder
More energy around the 3k region presumably, as Loudness Units are frequency weighted. It doesn't actually sound louder to my ears, both are equally obnoxious...
@@DanWorrall The algorithm for determining loudness uses a high-shelving filter with corner frequency around 2kHz, which in theory would mean that a sped/pitched up nightcore version of 'I Won The Loudness War' could claim the victory ;)
@@sjaak5172 I could release two minutes of full scale 3k square wave, but I think I'll concede with dignity instead ;)
I saw a video earlier where he got it to the mathematical maximum LUFS integrated. It was something like +6.4. Only thing is, the sound was silence, it was just one tone at the nyquist frequency
Yeah, but yours sounds better
wrong.
Nope still not the only song using only full scale sanples. Music written for the ZX spectrum beeper have been far ahead of you for decades.
honestly, your song slaps harder
I honestly don't give a &#!¥
You won the loudness war far as I'm concerned. The end.
I want to win the dynamics war.
i think the 1st place reward is going deaf
"Unsubscribe" 😐. Man, this is such a disappointment. (Parallel deserts sounds like what you feel at 5am when you wander drunk in front of the speaker at a very niche drum and bass festival).
I would've never thought five star hotel to be referenced or crossover worlds with Dan Worrall🤣
i might be half deaf but you’re song sounds louder vs 5 Star on Spotify to me
Five Star Hotel also make absolute bangers
Well their's isn't wonky and I like wonkiness
I'm shocked and disappointed, I may just unsubscribe! The trust feeling has gone
FIVE STAR MENTIONED !!!!!!!!!!!1!!
Smashed to bits 😂
i dont understand why people dont just use the volume button if they dont hear good... ah well, i like classical music anyway
because clubs
@@Arcessitor i think it was a pac-mans fault originally... with them electronic sound fx, dark hallways, flashing light environments, whilst eating all sorts of different "candies" and "keys" that made the game... typical todays disco
How did you get every single sample full scale?
Promise not to tell? I wrote a couple of lines of JS code: if input > 0 output = 1 else output = -1. Turn your monitors down before you try it ;)
Out of curiosity, how loud is that classic "Green Hills Zone - Ear Rape Edition" ?
I think there are free VSTs that measure that
im sure you can't even claim the full sample scale crown because of the existence of certain ZX spextrum tracks, unless they aren't full scale despite being binary
xDD
And it was a song by a millennial snowflake to boot!
At least you can keep your loudest song participation trophy
Well, subjectively, yours actually sounds like a song. There’s melody, there’s clear percussive elements and it doesn’t ever give a clipping/white noise vibe. Alas, that does not win a Guinness World Record, but at least I know which track I will actually enjoy unironically.
Sad, sad news!
Your ones better
😂😂😂😂🆙
❤️😹
lol
Can't even make the claim at the end Dan, ZX/PC beeper music has you beat by a few decades ;)
Your track is still great though!
Wouldn't it benefit someone to have only full scale samples mostly in the 1k-3k frequency range?
How about the new Beatles song that’s -6LUFS (what??) , is there a record for the loudest no.1 song :)
I guess one way you could still claim the 'cool' crown is your attempt is clearly toungue in cheek?...
slamming brutal death metal leads in these wars so far ;)i think its one of places that this is welcome :)
It would be interesting to see either track mastered for vinyl... or just cut on vinyl as they are!
Loudes mix + mastering i haved reached so fsr was -4 lufs
Love your song! Plus the video explaination, it really get me emotional every time i listen to it! Thankyou Dan ❤
So there’s a song objectively better than yours?!
but can you master it to be the quietest song in the world?
I bet there's a lot of audio content around the 3 kHz frequency!
It wouldn't be really a war if there is a winner right ? But good that you cleared it up
yoo an info if u know how many rms and crest factor?
..Try it again :'D
Make love not war 😂
Hey Dan...have you checked out any music by Current Value?
No, should I?
ya totally...very interesting dynamics and production.. loudness done with intention but also resolution. @@DanWorrall
Haha damn 😅
Lol
Crazy.
Thanks for the reference. Well, Parallel Desserts might have the crown for now, but isn't it possible that some other song could overtake it? Maybe some other attempt you might produce?
Wanted to mention, the beginning of your first take at the loudness war brought to mind some sounds in the beginning of Acid Rain by Lorn. Powerful stuff.
So what was it in that track that made it louder than yours?
Upper midrange energy, I assume. Loudness units are frequency weighted, so stuff around 3k reads higher.
@@DanWorrall Makes sense! Thank you 🙏
I like your song more, Dan
Yeah, listening to PD now and... not as interesting. Works as an interlude, but start getting bored with it.
I am not sure if this logo is new, or just new to me, but in my opinion, it is a misstep. Rather than evoke equalizer bars it evokes a craving for something tasty and Halal-certified. Inexperienced or shoddy graphic designers will round the corners on rectangles, primarily because the software allows them to. I find this beyond off-brand for this channel. It is the design equivalent of the exact kind of practice that, were it audio-related, Dan Worrall would surgically dismantle in one of his videos.
ZX spectrum games/demos do a lot of fun stuff with a single digital output. They would be effectively full scale at every sample. eg ua-cam.com/video/gNc_xczyGLc/v-deo.html
Respect.