I grew up Mormon, and most of my family remains in it. I had discussions with my sister over the years as I was learning about the biblical God. It has been a rocky road for me. At last, after working backward on the timeline of what my family taught me religiously, I have landed in the Catholic church. My baby is 6 months old, and I'm incredibly excited for her as we go on this journey together. She was baptized at 5 weeks old.♡
Congratulations. You made a great choice. I experienced the mormon church for a few years and never did really like it much. My wife and I have gone 'Home to Rome' and we feel brand new.
I grew up in a very active Mormon family. Dad was bishop when I was 8 years old mom was young women's president when I was 12. I was always beat over the head to living the example of the "christ like" life. I even married in the Temple. Being a history buff, I always questioned the fact that the Catholic Church claims that they are a continuation. I always took the leader's of the church at thier word. Now that I am older and my children are grown. I have also come to appriciate having primary sources for evidence. So I started looking for how I can find who had the Power of God in thier church. I came accross a interview with a priest who was an exorcist..When he told some stories of how the power that he held was more superior to a pastor from another church, that told me where I needed to be. Just like in the bible when Jesus cast the demons into the swine . Now, I have not taken my name from the mormon church and will not until after my adoptive parents have passed. I do not have it in me to break thier hearts. I have told all of my children, that I am converting. So I am sure that my parents know, they just don't say anything. It is a very lonely feeling leaving everything you have known all of your life, and then not having your own spouse come with you on it. He wants nothing to do with any church. Same with my teen. So I will continue to live right and pray the rosary and give it all to mother Mary and her blessed son Jesus.
@@lisahinkle3867 Good for you. I only spent a few years in the mormon church before leaving, but my daughters are still members. Much of my Christian history from birth was with the episcopal church, but today's episcopal church is not even close to the church my parents took us to. The episcopal church today, from the top down, openly condones sin, such as; adultery via divorce/remarriage, murder via a 'womans right to choose', and homosexuality, including many of the clergy are involved in same sex relationships. When I finally 'woke up' and realize what was going on, we had to leave. The Catholic Church was the only logical choice. Thanks Be To God for the Catholic Church.
@@johns1834 I have one child who is still part of the LDS church two that are full-on Pagan due to trauma done to them by so-called Christians, and one that is agnostic at best. My husband of 21 years is agnostic. He supports me in going to church but does not wish to join. This saddens me.
As a Christian who moved to Utah then converted to Catholicism, part of my journey was having to define the Church to defend it. My close friend from FLDS is almost Catholic now too! Pray for him please.
As a Latter-day Saint this is THE BEST discussion on my faith from another religious group I've ever seen. No fabricated quotes, strawman arguments, ad hominem, or outright hostility. Very well done.
As a Latter-day Saint I am looking forward to this as well. I still have much of it ahead of me but this appraisal is getting me excited about the content.
I'm an avid listener and active LDS as well. Though my big beef is, if you're going to discuss our church, get a member to join you. Honestly, I can't like a video where a faith is discussed that does not give that faith a chance to respond to your ideas. There are 17-19M of us. It shouldn't be hard to find just one to sit down with you.
@@penguinman9837well, there was a debate offered by an LDS apologist on another channel @PintswithAquinas. The LDS member backed out and deleted his posts for some reason.
@@penguinman9837 I found in another thread here that it was Robert Boylan (sp). Do you have another LDS apologist who would agree to a debate here or on PWA?
Really enjoyed this as a Latter-day Saint. Seriously the caricatures get exhausting. I appreciate you, Trent, on the good-faith approach you've given us (in both this and previous content) and I'm certainly going to check out Shameless Popery. I would love to hear you bring on an LDS perspective to both clarify and answer some of the critiques you raised regarding creatio ex nihilo vs materia, trinitarianism vs "social trinitarianism", infinite regression, etc. Even if not a debate format, merely the discussion with someone like you-who I know plays fair but also knows how to analyze and make a strong case-would be excellent content and very insightful not only for your Catholic viewers on Mormonism but also Latter-day Saints on Catholicism (which through yours and like podcasts I've dissolved many a caricature and found appreciation for myself). Love the content guys.
@@extract8058would you mind elaborating a bit on your statement? A question is begged when discussing the topic, "Are (certain group) a part of the Christian community?" Which would be, what are the Bounds to Christianity? So that would be my question to you as well, what does it mean to be a Christian?
Is there any chance you could do the same for Jehovah’s witnesses? We don’t get a lot of Mormons in the U.K. but I’d really love to know how to respond to the Watchtower at my front door! Thanks
I think it’s also important to be upfront when seeking to be charitable. If you pretend to be nice, and tolerant, and interested, but really you don’t care for Latter-day Saint theology and you’re only listening in order to convert them from their heresy, then when they realize that you have no real love for Mormonism, they’ll see you as a bad faith actor trying to waste their time. If you want to make any progress, you have to be as open-minded as you want them to be.
@@KnuttyEntertainment Thanks for your coaching. I didn’t say I pretend to be nice or tolerant. I could elaborate more, but let’s just say I’ve lived around the LDS for many years and know their tenets and doctrine, along with their approach. Their stumbling blocks are the Trinity, the Blessed Mother, and polytheism (which they don’t like to admit to believing). When I defend my Catholic faith, I don’t sugar coat anything, but rely on the Catechism, the Bible, and tradition. Also I have several good, long time Mormon friendships that bridge any religious differences. Sincerity and charity go hand in hand!
Don’t worry, when I said “you” I wasn’t referring to anyone in particular. You’re right, Latter-day Saints don’t believe in the Trinity, and they hold to Henotheism. Although, even though they think Mary was a mostly normal person, they do believe in a Heavenly Mother, but the identity of that mother is unknown.
@@KnuttyEntertainmentare you saying you can't be nice, tolerant, and interested if you don't care for Latter-day Saint theology? I think one can be all those things and not believe (or even see merit) in certain beliefs, be they LDS, Catholic, etc.
I was saying don’t pretend to be more open minded than you are. I find Greek Mythology very interesting. But I think it’s completely wrong. If I was talking to a pagan, I would be interested in their beliefs, but I would be upfront that my interest is scholarly, and that I have no interest in adopting their ideas. That’s especially important if you want the other party to adopt your ideas. They would be quite soured to find out you expected them to change, all while faking your own intentions to consider their case.
I’ve been enjoying watching Joe on Shameless Pot Pourri. Jokes aside, I do enjoy the work you both do for apologetics. As a fellow Catholic, I pray the best for you all, and even for those here that are LDS members.
Trent, thanks for always being respectful. I would love to see you have Mormon theologian and apologist Blake Ostler on your channel. I'd be happy to help put the both of you in contact in any way I can.
@@KnuttyEntertainment i think he's thinking of Robert Boylan who decided not to debate Jimmy Akin on Pints because the topic was too broad. There was a community post about it on PWA a week ago.
I have had great experiences with Mormons as neighbors and co-workers. I find them to be down-to-earth, hard working, family focused, and helpful towards others. I am glad you two are trying to avoid the caricatures.
They are almost always exceptionally kind, wholesome people who live out their faith. Their biggest downfall is the errancy of their church, but they would make fantastic Christians if they would convert and receive a valid Baptism!
I live in Nevada, a lot of Mormons here. Wonderful people, I really love them. I'm in love with a woman who was raised Mormon, I tell her a little about Catholicism. Maybe one day she will convert
@AnarSchism, or learning about Roman Catholicism will make her know she does not want to join it. The more I learn about Roman Catholicism, the more certain I am to not join it.
@Hamann9631 Thanks. I forgot about this comment. She's engaged to a guy who was raised Catholic. Neither of them are inclined to believe anything, other than maybe there is a God. I have been around a long time. Nearly 70 yrs. Seems like there are nice people and not nice people in every belief
Don’t you mean ‘shameless potpourri’ For those that don’t know the subtitles at least in Joes early videos would always show ‘shameless potpourri’ Hence why several people ask Joe to make a shameless potpourri items for sale 😂
Great discussion of my faith by these two. I appreciate the method and content of their discussion. It’s helpful to have conversations that help us truly understand where we agree and where we differ. I’ve enjoyed listening to Trent’s videos on sola scritura and sola fide (sp?) as these are topics I’d say we are in fairly good agreement on and Trent makes great cases for his positions. Would love to see either of these two have a discussion with a similarly reasonable member of my church.
As a Latter-day Saint, thank you for an honest and thoughtful conversation concerning my Church. One point of interest is you stated that you felt our theology didn’t provide a great response to new age atheism. I find that interesting as I feel that Latter-day Saint theology answers many questions that atheists raise that I feel traditional Christianity doesn’t have great answers for. For instance, I feel it answers existential questions better of who we are and what is our purpose. I feel it answers the problem of pain very well and what is the ultimate cause of pain. I feel it answers if mankind really has agency independent of God and who is responsible for our actions. It answers more clearly who God is and what is His purpose. I find the doctrine that we are the same species as our Father and we can become like Him to be beautiful and makes so much sense. I find the my doctrine very compelling and feel it goes deeper and answers more questions than I have seen provided by most other religions. Having not been raised in it, I can see why you find it strange and incorrect from your understanding of the scriptures. That is my two cents. Thanks again for this discussion.
I agree with this whole heartedly. Most criticisms I've found generally stem from, "your theology is weird" and "that's not Christian" which aren't arguments at all. Many Christians end up using atheist reasoning to discredit the doctorine or the church, not realizing that that same logic can be used against them. Everything in the end comes comes down to faith. By their fruits you shall know them.
I wish you could do a series on non denominational christians. I k ow it's a tough subject but my best friend, his wife, their 3 kids, the mother in law, my wife, my grandmother and several of my friends are all being drawn to this non denominational church. It's basically baptist without oversight but the problem is they protest apologetics altogether. They see it as a tool of division rather than a system of defense.
I wonder if that's what's preached at those services. I just found out that a cousin of mine started attending a non-denom church and she couldn't answer questions either.
@michellehorn2023 Everyone that goes there just says they like it because they preach from the Bible. When I ask about specific doctrines they take off running like I said a bad word. It's like a check your brain at the door and enjoy the presence of God kind of church. I looked at their website and it's typical baptist theology behind it all. Believers baptism, sola scriptura, sola fide, and PSA. When I ask about that, their response is "well that's basic Bible truth" I say it's basic baptist truth but they take it as traditional Christian biblical beliefs. It's like trying to get your hands around an oily snake. Very hard to pin them down, they all stray away from any kind of religious debate. I even tried to get them to look into the scientifically verified miracles of the church and the look I get is deer in headlights. The results are zilch. It's like they act like I'm trying to trick them. The worst part is all of them keep coming at me with level 1 anticatholic stuff like "call no man father" "all have sinned and fallen short" "salvation by faith rather than works so no man may boast" all the simple ones. I bat them away pretty easily but they take my defense like I'm trying to convert them. I've never met christians more defensive in that way.
Yes I completely agree. Because often they don’t really have anything that sort of resembles a sacrament or a sacrament but with their own interpretation. It’s usually a very simplified belief.
@@timboslice980 The Calvinist.....ugh! You'd think when the "anti" rederick stuff started they'd question the motives. Keep planting those seeds! Good bless.
@@xsantosofficialx1782 It really is a very poor "denomination" It has no depth. Their adherents are _encouraged_ to not have any depth. If it isn't explicit in the Bible then it's "not important" even with completely natural conclusions derived from Biblical truths. You start using the Bible as it was meant, by reading and contrasting several tracts of Scripture, and they get lost. How can I justify biblically the Perpetual Virginity of Mary if they are unwilling to read the Bible except verse by verse?
“The model that the trinity uses is a model that is native to Jewish culture, its native to ancient Israel.” - Benjamin D. Sommer biblical scholar and Jewish theologian. Professor of Bible at The Jewish Theological Seminary of America and Senior Fellow at the Shalom Hartman Institute. There is an old jewish doctrine that points to multiple "Powers" in heaven. I recommend reading these 2 books: The Jewish Trinity and Two Powers in Heaven.
I was Mormon. Both sides of my family are Mormons, have been for generations. The wisest man I have ever know, my grandfather, was Mormon. I say all this to preface the fact that nothing broke my heart like taking the bible to my then bishop and said here in John it says " in the beginning was the word the word was with God and the word was God. All things were made; and without him was not anything made was made." How could there be anything before God then? And his response was to say that passage didn't mean what it said and denied the word of God. I wept to know the church of my family is false. It breaks my heart to this day
What did you do after you realized that your faith wasn't true. Did you remain in the faith for the sake of your family....or did you join another religion?
I'm sorry for the experience that you've had and also happy that you've been able to maintain faith in God through your crisis of faith here. As a Latter-day Saint, I'd like to try to answer what you said by way of good faith and love, not argument or belittling. I would answer: a) God is an eternal being so by definition there cannot be anything before him. If your bishop denies this he has some kind of misunderstanding. While we'd hope bishops are excellent sources of doctrine, I'm sure you know that's often not the case. b) "In the beginning" assumes a beginning of some kind of time frame, and thus may not actually be commenting on whatever timeframe preceded it. This defense is, of course, more relevant to a defense of "infinite regression" which assumes our God was created by His God, etc. ad infinitum. While open-minded, I personally reject infinite regression. But even so, the "in the beginning" line by definition is only commenting on the beginning of some timeframe (presumably the creation of the world) and not any timeframe preceding it, so in your analysis I'd ask you to consider that. Not sure if clearly articulated, but I hope that offers a little bit of insight on my perspective.
I can do a debate against myself if you would like.. I am a cradle Catholics that was LDS for 19 years and returned to the Catholic faith after being drawn to the Eucharist. I find myself aggravated with them because of the disrespect for Jesus Christ but they do not even see it, on the other hand, I find myself defending them all the time. lol. I asked my friends about the abortion in cases in rape and incest and they told me they leave that to the prophet and they are fine with it. 😮
I was an Lds member for over 40 years and I hear your concerns on the lack of respect towards Jesus. When he is not portrayed as our God but just a little “g” god, or big brother, the reverence for him in the real presence is highly underrated…even though they still practice a sacrament in “remembrance of him”. That is one of the reasons my heart and head has become drawn towards the Catholic Church. Pray for me please.
@@mollyedwards7494 I will be praying for you and reach out to me by private message any time you need to chat. It is hard when you leave because they claim to hold our salvation and exaltation in the palm of their hands as well as that of our families. Plus you lose your entire social network. I did not know they didn’t consider Jesus to be God as part of the godhead until after I returned to the Catholic Church and one of the missionaries snapped at me saying, “Jesus is not God”. At Christmas time the bulletin board was not decorated with an image of Jesus or the Nativity, it was decorated with garland and a picture of Russell M. Nelson. I couldn’t be upset with the people because that is what they were taught. The quote by Joseph Smith saying he held a church together better than even Jesus Christ should make anyone who loves Christ leave but nope, multiple people said, Joseph had every reason to boast because he did keep a church together longer than Jesus Christ did. That infuriates me because to me they clearly do not understand that while the apostles and Christian martyrs were being killed and those who did not believe leaving, the church was not falling apart but coming together. In the hymn Praise to the Man they sing that the earth (meaning the people of the earth) will have to atone for Joseph’s blood shed. Why? If we do not have to atone for the blood of Christ shed, why in the heck would we have to atone for Joseph’s blood? I left the church before realizing all these things and now it is very hard to stay calm. Every heart string tugging story I was told was a lie and the leaders know it. The people believe them to be true and by controlling their access to truth and labeling those who leave as lost or apostates there is no chance to help anyone. I love the people but I really am upset about all the lies told that continue through today.
@mollyedwards7494 Have you heard of RCIA? It's starting at Catholic Church's right after labor day. You can go to learn what Catholics believe if you are interested.
@@mollyedwards7494 You do realize that the Church is called the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The priesthood we bear is the Priesthood after the Order of the Son. The Baptism and blessings we give start in the authority of Christ, in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost. The prayers we say are in the name of Jesus Christ. The name we take on ourselves in the Sacrament is Christ's. There is no little 'g' in our respect to Jesus. I am very awed that someone would have that perspective and actually have been a member. Its like going to school still never learning to read. He is literally the only reason we have a Church to begin with. It is not the Church of Heavenly Father or Joseph Smith or Brigham Young. It is rightfully the Church of Jesus Christ. Whatever lack of respect you felt in the Church is clearly a representation of your own ignorance and not the attitude of the Church generally.
@@jacobsamuelson3181 wow , what a way to undermine someone's faith. It's clear you people don't like it when someone leave your false church. Get over it Repent and come into full communion with the Catholic church , the one true holy Catholic and apostolic church that Jesus Christ established on the rock of St Peter and has been standing for 2,000 years! Glory to Jesus Christ 🙏☦️❤️
Mormons are wonderful people. I just can’t agree with their theology on too many levels, and I appreciate Trent for keeping us all honest by telling us not to be judgy. Bc tbh that’s me. I can be like that. 😢😅
@@Link25 Do you deny that the literal worship of a human sacrifice is the core tenet of Christianity? Paul created Christianity in 48 AD and this is how he put it: Romans 8:32 "He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all." 1 Corinthians 5:7 "Christ our passover is sacrificed for us." Romans 3:25 "God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement." Romans 5:8 "God showed his great love for us by sending Christ to die for us." Hebrews 10:10 "We are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ."
@@EvilXtianity posting single verses doesn't strengthen your argument argument. Yes, Jesus is the Lamb but he also resurrected. Without the Resurrection there would be no Christianity.
Ironically, His Resurrection is one of two events in Jesus’ life that almost all scholars agree did happen. Jesus was not only written about in the Bible, but also by Jewish writers such as Josephus and Roman writers such as Tacitus. You can start your search for ancient writings on Jesus here, although I fear even history won’t convince you if His existence. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sources_for_the_historicity_of_Jesus
As a LDS member who went to rica and seriously considered Catholicism for a while, and someone studying philosophy, I thought this was very charitable!
Another thing on why some Saints get offended by not being called Christian: I think because the average LDS don’t really care about the metaphysics of their view of God, they focus far more on orthopraxy than on orthodoxy. And to them, being a Christian (in their use of the term), means being a Christ-like person, being a literal Saint, while obviously the Nicene Christian tradition sees the creeds as one of the essential parts of its own self-definition. So we talk past each other.
Hopefully you sign up for RCIA again and are able to be in full communion with Christ true church in this side of heaven! Glory be to Jesus Christ 🙏☦️❤️
Would love to see this conversation happen with some additional insight from Steve Pynakker of @MormonBookReviews. He's an Evangelical who stresses open and charitable dialogue on this subject. He's had Catholics on, too. Great video, thanks!
7:35 I would just being up a quick correction about the Knights of Columbus, our exemplification (initiation ceremony) is now public and can be witnessed by anyone.
I just want to say that all of this is spot on. I’d like to point out that a lot of the conversation that Christians have about Mormon doctrine about the God Head is really not commonplace among practicing Mormons. To many of them, they see their faith as one of many Christian denominations, just one that has apostolic authority and priesthood. They rarely talk seriously about the big issues you bring up and relegate it to “deep doctrine” discussions which even then are considered mysterious and beyond understanding. This emphasis on submitting to priesthood authority really characterizes the faith. It’s what drew people in but it is also what leads to problems when those in authority are allowed to contradict time honored beliefs and rewrite them as they would like to believe. Often, conversations about these very important doctrinal points devolve into “well, I trust in the authority of so-and-so”. It actually becomes an interesting case study when discussing Sola Scriptura and where authority really comes from.
@@jwatson181 in Catholicism we are encouraged to ask questions though Lay theologians have existed since antiquity and their presence has been welcomed Mormon theologians though they just don't exist, I don't think
Very critically and charitably engaging. The Catholic Church is the actual Church of Jesus Christ of ladder day (and all seasons) saints, since it has been for 2000 yrs and has the most overwhelming evidence for it; to start Mat 16:18 “Now I say to you that you are Peter (which means ‘rock’), and upon this rock I will build my church, and all the powers of hell will not conquer it.” NLT
@@ItsSnagretAgreed, the phrase “the gates of the nether world shall not prevail against it” has at least two meanings both of which disprove common Protestant and Mormon objections against Catholicism. One: it means that peters office will not end in his death but will continue on. Second it means that the devil will have no power to destroy the Church, that the Church will always remain despite the many apostasies that occur.
@@SevereFamine The Protestant position is not that the Church was destroyed or anything like that. Only that the institutions of the Church have produced errors and we shouldn't bind ourselves to those errors.
One thing that I have used to trip up Mormons is to point out their flip flop on contraception. It’s hard for them to explain their massive moral changes on this and polygamy which seem geared to simply appease.
@@HaleStorm49 having a moral law and then suddenly changing your official stance on what a sin is. It’s hard to find any approval of contraception at all in Mormon literature or guidelines until very recently, like within the past 20 years. But now on the LDS website they have the generic protestant position that it’s a “private” choice “between couples.” Catholics in good standing are 100% on contraception because it’s a mortal sin. We can’t prevent people from disobeying and calling themselves Catholic, but we at least don’t change our rules to fit in with society.
@@HaleStorm49For a church to flip flop they would teach one thing definitively and then later teach a partial or total negation of that same thing later. The Catholic Church on the other hand has clearly taught against contraception in all cases for all time.
Paul warned in the NT that in the latter days that people would not endure sound (logical) doctrine, and frankly there are few if any doctrines more unsound or illogical than the athanasian creed (doctrine of the trinity). Is it logical to pray to yourself, or to be able to sit on the right hand of yourself, or for part of you know when you will return return, but the other part won't, or when you are baptized, descend upon yourself while throwing your voice from heaven saying that too are well pleased with yourself?!? Continued...
This was very interesting, but I felt like an idiot when it comes to what Mormon's believe. I was raised in the Mormon religion, and there was one thing I never could accept, the idea of the Great Apostasy. I still can't. I have a cousin who is LDS to this day. When I was going through my belief struggle, we discussed it almost daily, as we shared an apartment. When I decided on a more classic Christian view, suddenly in her mind, all of our discussions became my persecuting the LDS. It has been almost 40 years, and discussing this is still like walking on eggshells. I love her dearly, but this is a taboo subject. Guess I've forgotten a lot of what she believes.
Trent doesn't do it so much but Eric Sammons, Patrick Fedora (I don't remember his name) Church Militant, 1 Pet 5 guy who left the church, Taylor Marshall and most of the other Catholic voices spend a majority of the time discussing how to remedy apostasy in the church today...but will likewise say they dont accept the idea of apostasy in 150 AD, or 300AD, 900AD or any time after...until say Vatican II, etc. Why is the great apostasy a difficult concept to accept when apostasy in the present is rampant?
@@a_Catholic_Ant Im not sure I follow which argument you are making here. Are you saying that discussion of church apostasy isn't mainstream or that they are incorrect and it is not actually occurring?
@@HaleStorm49 No, I'm saying that in the case of Vatican 2 itself their is no apostasy, it's only Rad Trad saying that. Their is some merit in saying their is some apostasy in the Church (case in point sedevacantism), but I would like to add though that this isn't the whole church falling into heresy.
cmon, we all knew mormonism was for the loonies when it endorsed polygamy. like what man in his right mind would be masochistic enough to actually WANT more than one nagging ball-and-chain
That’s the point. Joseph Smith really really DIDN’T want to practice polygamy. Never really slept around either. He had like 10 kids with his first wife, and was never in a room alone with others. Not that his other wives were all that attractive, lot of old widows. And even when the practice was expanded to the membership at large, it was often the case that you were assigned by your bishop to provide for the local widow and her children. You weren’t ever building a harem. Plus there’s a lot of theological things going on in the background of the practice, and almost none of it is sexual.
Do you think anybody asked Moses, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, David, Solomon or any of the thousands of other prophets we don't know whether they wanted to practice plural marriage? I do like that Joel touched on the importance of asking good questions. Good advice.
@@KnuttyEntertainment Please go back and read the church essays on the topics, then search for the journals of each woman named. You are totally wrong. They have documentation of his booty calls at other members houses, him getting busted doing the nasty in the barn with Fannie Alger (not a spiritual wife), marrying 20 something women behind Emma's back, sending the father of teenaged sisters (whose mother died on a mission) then marrying both sisters while their dad was away. I was always told he only married women who were not married to a faithful Mormon man, nope he sent his leaders on missions then secretly married the wives. Just keep clicking the section asking if you want to know more then read the official journals. I am not saying this to hurt you... I just don't want you looking like a fool like poor Emma did when she finally found out.
Love the timing after seeing people arguing about this online. Mormons are nice but I really feel like their beliefs are too far outside what an observer would group with other forms of Christianity.
Latter-day Saints are non-Nicene. They reject Classical Theism and Trinitarianism, ideas that developed from Ancient Greek thought centuries after Christ. If you define Christianity with those ideas, then Latter-day Saints aren’t Christian, but neither is the ante-Nicene Church by that standard. And the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is claiming to be a restoration of the ante-Nicene church, so it only makes sense.
@@KnuttyEntertainmentrevelation is developed over time so your comment makes no sense. They church has the authority to have a council because it’s founded by Christ. What exactly about the Nicene creed is bad. The two things you listed are pretty standard theology. If you think you’re smarter than church fathers then use your 300iq to explain you side. Idk where you got the idea that the council of Nicaea was guided by ancient Greeks lol.
I didn’t assume that Christianity changed by the time of the Nicene creed, I asserted it. The council itself doesn’t really matter to me. Most of the damage was already done by that point, no one had proper authority and they were adopting wrong ideas.
@@KnuttyEntertainment Yes, that's an absurd antihistorical assumption. Mormonism hinges on the supposed "great apostasy" which is completely incompatible with history. At least we discovered where the hiccup is. So you wouldn't say that all or even most of ante-nicene so-called christians had the correct religion, right?
I'll add my thanks as a lifelong LDS to Trent and Joe for a model Christian engagement with our faith tradition. I've also appreciated the mutual respect shown by Trent when engaging with Protestants. I would not expect the Catholic Church to accept LDS baptisms for the reasons given. But, I would submit that in this age denominational baptism is not the right measure for identifying a Christian in interfaith dialogue (nor is it used for such in practice by most). I would consider a part of the Christian tradition any who earnestly confesses Jesus is LORD, is resurrected, and in whom exclusively is faith unto salvation, without diving further into definitional detail. The details are essential, just not for the purpose of othering an earnest disciple of Jesus of Nazareth.
I think the important detail is god being "other" vrs father. I love God the Father. I would revolt from a god that created us for entertainment purposes.
As a former Mormon that converted to Catholicism, I definitely get bent out of shape when people say I wasn't a Christian. I most certainly was. I read the Bible. I prayed to God, in Jesus' name. Do Mormon's have a lot of misunderstandings? Absolutely. My primary argument to a Mormon would be that Jesus told us that the gates of hell would not prevail against His church. Joseph Smith's story about the angel telling him that none of the churches on earth were right and that he had to re-establish the church would make Jesus a liar. But I'm grateful to the Mormon church for being a stepping stone on my path to Catholicism. In fact, it was a Mormon apologetic called "A Marvelous Work and a Wonder" that started me on the path as it relayed a conversation between a Mormon and a Catholic priest in which the priest was reported to have said that the Mormons didn't know the strength of their own position- that either the Catholic faith was right, or the Mormon faith was, that protestants hadn't a leg to stand on because a living branch cannot come from a dead tree. When I concluded that Mormonism was wrong, that unforgotten passage started me on the path to Catholicism. And the more I read the Bible (an NIV version) and kept reading over and over in the Gospels and in the Epistles about how what you do matters, and how there is such a thing as sin that is deadly, etc., I began to look at the only two churches that really felt consistently followed the teachings of Christ. That would be Catholicism and Orthodoxy. Ultimately I came to the conclusion that Catholicism is the true faith, and I am home. But I was always a Christian.
Did the gates of hell prevail? No. But there was an apostasy. God prevails because He has the ability to restore His priesthood. God prevailed. Hell did not. Because God is omnipotent and omniscient.
@@DesertPrimrose If Jesus had to come back and re-establish his Church on earth, then the gates of hell most certainly did prevail against the first Church he set up. And he said that would not happen. I believe Jesus.
I will say LDS isn’t Christian but I refer to the doctrines in the church rather than every single individual. I think the more someone commits to LDS-specific beliefs, the farther they get from true Christianity. I believe that some Mormons may belong to the church but internally align much more with true Christianity, which seems to apply to you as well. Just my thoughts😅
@@dan-ch8kr I get where you're coming from. And I recognize that Mormons have a skewed view of the Trinity and of Heaven/Hell among other things. But they do believe in Jesus, they do practice baptism. I've never quite understood why Mormons are considered by the church to not be Christian, when protestant denominations that subscribe to a number or errors and even heresies are still considered Christian. Regardless, I'm definitely a baptized/confirmed Catholic now, thanks be to God.
Its cool to hear two catholics state the commonalities between our two faiths. I'm not super informed on deep Catholic theology so this was very informative.
Hi brother! I am a Protestant and I was decently perplexed by your statement on the church’s apostasy. A Mormon would indeed have a seemingly valid point stating that a prophet or other religious figure would be needed to lead the church into rebirth. It took me a second to find an answer to this and it is a great objection to my beliefs. Here is what I have come to believe about that in my relationship with God: Why go to a man, when the Word of God is sitting in your hands? Why have A prophet, when you can have all of their words as directed by God, and the words of the greatest prophet: Jesus, or God himself? I thank you for bringing this to my attention as it actually is a valid question to have. As a counterpoint it could be asked why Mormons would listen to someone who rejects the Theology of Christianity going so far as to reject the necessity of Christ as payment for sin, and even claims to be driven by a desire to make himself a god even to the point that he claims that a man has the power to level himself with God? Again I thank you for the observation as it, again makes perfect sense at first glance. If you have any questions about the point I made, I would be happy to hear it. God bless you, have a wonderful day!
I do apologize if this comes across as rude I just wanted to respond to the question as, it was kind of surprising to me. It was a good point, and good points deserve an answer. I’m also sorry if I write in a weird style, as I am kind of a robot when typing. Lol God bless y’all
Great questions. I find that one of the biggest fundamental differences among Mormons and what makes it so hard to reach them is that they deny that the Bible is the Word of God. They say the Bible was written by man, and man is subject to error, and they also bring up how the Bible has been translated many times. This honestly sounds sensible on the surface-level but it actually lacks so much faith and historical basis. Regardless though, that’s what they believe, and it’s why they believe they need a prophet to “restore” Christianity🥲
I would love for Catholic Answers and Apologia Studios to come together on the common ground of refuting the LDS church! I think it would be helpful for Durbin and all of them to see where Catholics are coming from. And that they agree with our councils on definitional Christianity. Really encouraging and helpful episode. Great reminders of how to effectively evangelize rather than push people away.
Apologia doesn’t care for common ground. They jump unsuspecting people on the street and Bible bash them for views, deceptively filming people after saying they wouldn’t film their conversation.
_"...to come together on the common ground of refuting the LDS church!"_ LOL, from someone who literally worships cannibalism and propitiatory human sacrifice!
I don't think the Apologia guys would be down for it. They seem to hold a very deep disdain for the Catholic Church and they probably don't want to join them in anything.
34:01 Mormons just to clear up some beliefs, are not polytheistic because we believe 1 god, the father, is the highest of all and is in charge of all, his son, Jesus Christ, was sent here to do his will as well as the Holy Ghost. They have received there exaltation meaning they have all power to act and know everything. However primarily we pray to and seek guidance from the father.
Thank you for talking about labels and how useless they are. As a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints who refers to herself as an LDS Christian I very thoroughly appreciate it. I will very fully accept that we have theological differences and our baptisms are not recognized by each other. I think that we can come together over our love of Christ and his infinite sacrifice for us.
Trent, I’d be curious to hear your thoughts on this. If we have too narrow of a definition of “Christian,” don’t we render the term “heretical” meaningless? For example, no one calls an atheist or a Buddhist a “heretic,” as they are just straight-up totally different beliefs. On the other hand, everyone considers Arius a heretic, but his followers were called “Arian CHRISTIANS” by historians. I think “Christian” has to be broad enough to be able to separate heretical groups from orthodox groups. So, while I personally find their beliefs troubling and WAY outside the mainstream, I see an argument for classifying Mormons as “Christian” in an academic sense, given they believe in the Resurrection and self-identify as Christians. They’re just extremely heretical. TL;DR I think if we classify early heretical groups like Arians and Gnostics as at least in some way “Christians,” we should do the same for modern heretics.
The dead cats thing about Luther is from a legitimate Guardian article by Kate Connelly that is reporting on an archaeological dig of Luther's home. Interestingly, the academic paper by Nebelsick and Emmerling does corroborate Luther lied about his wealthy upbringing and lifestyle (the man was a bit of a monster and verifiably antisemetic) but has no mention of dead cats. So it isn't that the claim is intentionally unfounded, it seems that Kennedy just trusted the Guardian to not lie to him. Now it's possible there are German exhibits from the dig or Connelly is citing someone not available in English, but as of yet, I can't find the primary sources on dead cats.
I think that still falls under making sure the information is supported. I can totally admit there are things I don’t know in life and often trust in sources who have the time and resources to pursue such topics. Given the history of Lutheran as the Protestant Revolt leader, I think maybe spreading the line about killing cats and his less than ideal behavior should be brought up carefully. Maybe once a study or source compilation is done that puts all of that together would be best so there’s a deposit of resources people can look on their own. After all, Abraham Lincoln did warn not to believe everything on the internet.
I looked up the Guardian article and it just says that they disposed of dead cats in the waste bin. It seems like a stretch to conclude from that that Luther was murdering cats as a child especially since the article doesn't even indicate that it was his childhood home. It seems strange to us but I don't know the cultural norms of disposing of cats in 16th century Germany, especially when cats were probably seen as a utility animal for catching rats rather than a pet.
I read that article before my video and it doesn't mention anything about Luther killing the cats. I doubt people of the 16th century gave pets fancy funerals. Cats were also more like rat patrols than beloved pets.
My mom told me that even as late as the 1970’s - it was common in the countryside that when your cat ended up pregnant…you would drown the kittens in order to keep the cat population down. Because if you let them live, they would inevitably be eating YOUR cat’s food (which was kept outside bc country cats are outdoor/indoor). Horrifying to me, but apparently very normal back then. My mom remembers her dad placing the new litter of kittens in a flour sack and chucking it in the pond on their land. He’s a good man too! So is my grandma! After her 2nd litter, they finally got her fixed so she couldn’t get pregnant again. So, I imagine that in the 16th century…it wasn’t possible to get your cat spayed/neutered? Or that it was much less common to do so. I also doubt they had animal shelters or many vets around for cats. So with an increase in cat pregnancies that couldn’t be curbed by spaying and neutering…it would probably be considered irresponsible to NOT drown/kill the cats that didn’t have owners, especially if they were overtaking the streets…filled with fleas…or harming your own pets. So even if it’s true that Luther killed cats - I don’t see that as a problem. I think it would be the equivalent of someone coming into my house and finding a bunch of mouse traps in my attic with dead mice or a dead possum, raccoon, or snake in my dumpster. Nowadays we view cats much differently….but that wasn’t always the case.
On your point in 24:37 I would have to say that while i understand the intent I cant really agree on this point. Especially as it concerns whether someone is a Christian or not. In my believe and understanding someone who does not affirm the trinity is not Christian. I am sorry if you reject the Trinity you do believe in a different God, ergo not Christian.
It seems that religions that have, let's call it bad prerequisites for apologetics, have to develop other kinds of pressures for proselytizing and preventing defection.
As a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saint I really appreciate your approach to discussing our differences. Ivd been trying to better understand our Christian brothers and sisters' faith more, and podcasts like this are really good People like Jeff Durham are a real turn-off acting like he knows my faith better then I know it So to sum up I 💯 agree with what you said about how to approach "mormons" don't belittle and don't call our garments "magic underwear" 😅🙄
I've got a hundred reasons to be critical of LDS, but your group having your own distinctive rules for dress ain't one. Calling it magic underwear is just being petty and mean spirited.
I wear a cross as my reminder of my faith and I use a Rosary to pray intentionally about something or for someone. The LDS garments are as sacred to you as wearing a cross is to me. You don’t wear garments to offend anyone, and likewise I don’t wear a cross to offend anyone! I could never look with any disdain on someone who upholds their spiritual belief and personal devotion. If we could all seek to have greater understanding and compassion, we’d be a lot further down the road and demonstrating Jesus’s commandment to “Love our neighbors as ourselves.”
@@iemy2949 archeologist found a cave with inscription on it dating from 2AD, the cave was a hidden chapel of sorts (since bring Christian in that time was dangerous) and inside there is a cross. This cross (which you are so offended by) is the same symbol that the faithful have been using since the time of Jesus. Here's a quick video of said cave: ua-cam.com/video/cH6BJDxQjAU/v-deo.htmlsi=WrKhSC4RzYqDtO3s
Also, science backs up the fact that matter/energy can not be created or destroyed! The Hebrew word "barrau" which was translated as create really means to organize and not to make something from nothing! That is as impossible as to make two and two be correctly give!! Continued...
Catholics were way too soft on this topic. LDS leadership & past prophets including the pedophile Joseph smith taught that all the creeds are an abominations to God & all the Catholic leadership including with all churches are Corrupt. That they are the only true church of Jesus “I have always declared God to be a distinct personage, Jesus Christ a separate and distinct personage from God the Father, and the Holy Ghost was a distinct personage and a Spirit: and these three constitute three distinct personages and three Gods,” (Teachings of Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 370).
It’s very relevant to talk about Mormons since they’re heavily involved with the TV show “The Chosen” which many Catholics I like. i haven’t nor intend to watch that show.
I don't want to sound mean. Really. But - why would anyone dedicate their lives to a religion founded by a guy named Joe Smith living in upstate New York? It just always seemed absurd on it's face, and the nutty beliefs do nothing to dispel that but only reinforce it.
@@iemy2949 Hi, friend. Again, I don't want to be disrespectful, but your question is precisely the mindset that could induce otherwise rational people with a christian upbringing to follow a guy named Joe Smith. Or Jim Jones. Or Sun Myung Moon. Or Ann Lee. Or David Koresh. Or any other deluded person with a Messiah complex.
As the other guy pointed out, Jesus of Nazareth was a seemingly ordinary man from the boonies. While I don't believe Joseph Smith was a prophet, his status as a seemingly ordinary man is not the way of questioning that position.
12:57 they don’t reject solo scriptura , they literally believe the Bible was adulterated and rejected it. The most famous thing between us is: we don’t need the Bible, we have the BM.
Literally no LDS person would claim to not need the Bible because The Book of Mormon exists. It is *another* testament of Jesus Christ. "In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established." 1 Corinthians 13:1
@@DesertPrimrose have you noticed what happened with the 3 ones? each one of these three witnesses was excommunicated from The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints by about eight years after the publication of their testimony. I’m sorry but you need to study more about your religion. Good luck.
@@Lovecatholicfaith sweetie, I know about my religion. I was referring to the Book of Mormon being a witness of Jesus Christ in addition to the Bible. On the off-topic subject of three witnesses that you randomly brought into the discussion, none of them ever denied their testimony of The Book of Mormon. Two of them were rebaptized into The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Good try, though 👍
12:47 the garments have signs or symbols on it . This signs are like answers when you died, because for pass by the angels you have to know the signs. It so confused for memorized and we have to go to the temple a lot of times to memorize it.
Also, if you examine carefully the second chapter of Daniel, we know already that Christ set up His kingdom during the time of the iron legs (the Roman empire) which begs the question; why did it need to be set up in the days of the kingdoms of part iron and clay (the last days)! Continued...
34:00 Ironically, Just as there requires sophistication to understand the Trinity as not three Gods, LDS can say the same thing that it requires sophistication to understand that our beliefs is not polytheistic in almost an identical manner.
@@allieooop3923 Jacob wasn’t saying that Trent is line with Latter-day Saint teachings, he was talking about how the types of arguments he used ultimately lead to those conclusions.
Just found your channel from your debate with Destiny. I'm a life-long member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and I loved this discussion. It reminds me of the videos that Pastor Jeff has been making with his channel "Hello Saints" (another channel which I also love)
"many protestants hold to a great apostasy" "some protestants don't hold to a great apostasy" (that is a sloppy characterization; it should be flipped)
I appeciate your treatment of LDS doctrine but I think you are glossing over the idea/concept of intelligences in the bigger scope of LDS creation doctrine. What does it mean that intelligences including God existed before material?
I had to get baptized when I converted from Mormonism, conditionally due to my parents looking at a lot of different Christian denominations and I couldn't get a straight answer from my mom. Not her fault cause ya know, she thinks Mormon baptism erased all the others. Father Lewis, the parish priest, said "don't worry, we'll make it happen." It was one of the best experiences of my life thus far. Felt like I was waling on a cloud the rest of the day.
Why don't the Catholics, Protestants, Orthodox, Jehovah's Witnesses, and Mormons work it all out among themselves as to what is the "one True" version of Christianity...and THEN come after us agnostics and atheists. After all, what if we pick the "wrong' Christianity???
I think a better approach is do Catholics embody more Christlike attributes compared to the typical member of the lds church? At the end of the day, religion has a purpose. If your Christianity is not making you more Christ like than I doubt anyone will care what things you bring up.
Something that you won’t hear a lot from Mormons, when speaking to other Christians, is the differences that we have. I like being different from the rest of Christianity. I see too many Latter-day Saints try to convince wider Christianity that we’re all in the same club. If the Protestants and the Catholics don’t want you, good. I don’t want to be in your club, because we are different. If I was trying to convince you that we were in the same club, I wouldn’t be a Latter-day Saint.
The RSV & NRSV (Catholic Editions) are pretty well used. The main "Catholic" translation is the New American Bible Revised Edition, which is what you will hear read from at Mass. The translation is fine, but the standard footnotes that go with it are often highly influenced by modernist and critical scholarship and are often problematic. I have heard they are re-working these and hopefully they will be more representative of faithful scholarship, rather than skeptical scholarship. For specific bibles, the Word on Fire Bibles are spectacular in all ways and uses an NRSV. They have beautiful art, chunks of commentary from Bishop Barron, Church Fathers, and other Christian figures. The Ignatius New Testament Study Bible uses the RSV translation and has solid study notes. The Catholic Adventure Bible is also well-reviewed (but I've never used it) and uses an RSV translation.
Also , it's RCIA time of year. If you're interested in possibly becoming Catholic best thing is to go to the RCIA class at your nearby Church. Classes start real soon@😊
Yeah I have been in contact with my only Catholic church in my town of rural Georgia the Catholic Church has answered some questions for me that the protestant church refuses to answer that being said it's hard for me I was raised protestant my whole life although I do feel like Christ is leading me toward his true church.
@@DivineMercy0414 Totally get that. My parents and wife were less than thrilled, but the Lord has been really good to me,and nothing is better than being able to receive the sacraments!
@@DivineMercy0414 Did you ever hear of Tim Staples from Catholic answers? He was a pastor either Baptist or AOG. Well his family was upset at first when he became Catholic but then they all converted. You never know what could happen. Be not afraid!! 😇
Trent--there's an established youtuber who became a Jesus follower just recently...he is a machine when it comes to studying (and interpreting) the Bible and he's very impressive and sincere....he's denying the Trinity and I was wondering what someone like you would think of his theology. It's Young Don Reborn (found him thru Ruslan.) Thank you.
Perhaps he’d like to be Mormon or JW. They both deny the Trinity. And he’s playing his own personal interpretation over those who were taught the Apostles from the beginning of the faith
I would disagree with some of your representations of what we teach in the Church, but not due to any dishonesty just limited experience or not looking at things from within the perspective of the church. What I mean is there are some built in assumptions from your experiences that colour how you interpret what we teach (for e.g. we would not view God having a physical form or disbelief in ex nihilo creation to be limiting God). But it is a very good faith discussion. I very much appreciate the section on "are Mormons Christian". I of course think we are as we are trying to the best of our ability to follow Jesus Christ and his teachings, but it is important to hammer out what we mean by it. I think we need a good definition to have any discussion. The best phrase to use a lot of the time is "what do you mean by that".
I grew up Mormon, and most of my family remains in it. I had discussions with my sister over the years as I was learning about the biblical God. It has been a rocky road for me. At last, after working backward on the timeline of what my family taught me religiously, I have landed in the Catholic church. My baby is 6 months old, and I'm incredibly excited for her as we go on this journey together. She was baptized at 5 weeks old.♡
Congratulations. You made a great choice. I experienced the mormon church for a few years and never did really like it much. My wife and I have gone 'Home to Rome' and we feel brand new.
Good bless you.
I grew up in a very active Mormon family. Dad was bishop when I was 8 years old mom was young women's president when I was 12. I was always beat over the head to living the example of the "christ like" life. I even married in the Temple. Being a history buff, I always questioned the fact that the Catholic Church claims that they are a continuation. I always took the leader's of the church at thier word. Now that I am older and my children are grown. I have also come to appriciate having primary sources for evidence. So I started looking for how I can find who had the Power of God in thier church. I came accross a interview with a priest who was an exorcist..When he told some stories of how the power that he held was more superior to a pastor from another church, that told me where I needed to be. Just like in the bible when Jesus cast the demons into the swine . Now, I have not taken my name from the mormon church and will not until after my adoptive parents have passed. I do not have it in me to break thier hearts. I have told all of my children, that I am converting. So I am sure that my parents know, they just don't say anything. It is a very lonely feeling leaving everything you have known all of your life, and then not having your own spouse come with you on it. He wants nothing to do with any church. Same with my teen. So I will continue to live right and pray the rosary and give it all to mother Mary and her blessed son Jesus.
@@lisahinkle3867 Good for you. I only spent a few years in the mormon church before leaving, but my daughters are still members.
Much of my Christian history from birth was with the episcopal church, but today's episcopal church is not even close to the church my parents took us to.
The episcopal church today, from the top down, openly condones sin, such as; adultery via divorce/remarriage, murder via a 'womans right to choose', and homosexuality, including many of the clergy are involved in same sex relationships.
When I finally 'woke up' and realize what was going on, we had to leave.
The Catholic Church was the only logical choice.
Thanks Be To God for the Catholic Church.
@@johns1834 I have one child who is still part of the LDS church two that are full-on Pagan due to trauma done to them by so-called Christians, and one that is agnostic at best. My husband of 21 years is agnostic. He supports me in going to church but does not wish to join. This saddens me.
As a Christian who moved to Utah then converted to Catholicism, part of my journey was having to define the Church to defend it. My close friend from FLDS is almost Catholic now too! Pray for him please.
As a Latter-day Saint this is THE BEST discussion on my faith from another religious group I've ever seen. No fabricated quotes, strawman arguments, ad hominem, or outright hostility. Very well done.
Pray to God that He bring everyone to the fullness of truth - not just my own or your own conception of it, but THE truth. Be blessed.
yeah, it's a whole lot better than Fradd's "mormonism ought to be crushed beneath out feet and I'm in favor of burning Mormon books".
As a Latter-day Saint I am looking forward to this as well. I still have much of it ahead of me but this appraisal is getting me excited about the content.
@@jacobmayberry3566yeah, not a fan of Fradd’s comment, but still good content and a great interview.
As one of your Latter-Day Saint subscribers, I really appreciated your nuanced and careful treatment on this issue. Well done
Thank you for listening!
Glory to Jesus Christ 🙏☦️❤️
I'm an avid listener and active LDS as well. Though my big beef is, if you're going to discuss our church, get a member to join you. Honestly, I can't like a video where a faith is discussed that does not give that faith a chance to respond to your ideas. There are 17-19M of us. It shouldn't be hard to find just one to sit down with you.
@@penguinman9837well, there was a debate offered by an LDS apologist on another channel @PintswithAquinas. The LDS member backed out and deleted his posts for some reason.
@@MichaelGlowacki Weird. I'll do it myself if I must. I'm nobody, just a dad with opinions.. but I'll do it.
@@penguinman9837 I found in another thread here that it was Robert Boylan (sp).
Do you have another LDS apologist who would agree to a debate here or on PWA?
That's a great line. "It's not creating any light. It's only generating heat."
Really enjoyed this as a Latter-day Saint. Seriously the caricatures get exhausting. I appreciate you, Trent, on the good-faith approach you've given us (in both this and previous content) and I'm certainly going to check out Shameless Popery.
I would love to hear you bring on an LDS perspective to both clarify and answer some of the critiques you raised regarding creatio ex nihilo vs materia, trinitarianism vs "social trinitarianism", infinite regression, etc. Even if not a debate format, merely the discussion with someone like you-who I know plays fair but also knows how to analyze and make a strong case-would be excellent content and very insightful not only for your Catholic viewers on Mormonism but also Latter-day Saints on Catholicism (which through yours and like podcasts I've dissolved many a caricature and found appreciation for myself).
Love the content guys.
I'm not Mormon. But the question "are Moromons Christian" reminds me of when Protestants question whether Catholics are Christian, and vice versa.
I am also LDS and love what is being said here.
@@extract8058would you mind elaborating a bit on your statement?
A question is begged when discussing the topic, "Are (certain group) a part of the Christian community?" Which would be, what are the Bounds to Christianity?
So that would be my question to you as well, what does it mean to be a Christian?
@@extract8058Protestants and Catholics agree with each other on a lot more than either does with Mormons.
Is there any chance you could do the same for Jehovah’s witnesses? We don’t get a lot of Mormons in the U.K. but I’d really love to know how to respond to the Watchtower at my front door! Thanks
Not to promote another channel, but Bryan Mercier of The Catholic Truth has a lot of videos on his channel about JWs.
JW are heretics
@@EpoRose1She's not a Catholic, but I recommend Melissa Dougherty, who does a lot of discussion on Jehovah's Witnesses and how to minister to them.
Sam shamoun SHAMOUNIAN
In the playlist you’ll see refuting jehova witness
Charity is the only way to roll. You will always be warmly remembered when you are charitable!
I think it’s also important to be upfront when seeking to be charitable. If you pretend to be nice, and tolerant, and interested, but really you don’t care for Latter-day Saint theology and you’re only listening in order to convert them from their heresy, then when they realize that you have no real love for Mormonism, they’ll see you as a bad faith actor trying to waste their time. If you want to make any progress, you have to be as open-minded as you want them to be.
@@KnuttyEntertainment Thanks for your coaching. I didn’t say I pretend to be nice or tolerant. I could elaborate more, but let’s just say I’ve lived around the LDS for many years and know their tenets and doctrine, along with their approach. Their stumbling blocks are the Trinity, the Blessed Mother, and polytheism (which they don’t like to admit to believing). When I defend my Catholic faith, I don’t sugar coat anything, but rely on the Catechism, the Bible, and tradition. Also I have several good, long time Mormon friendships that bridge any religious differences. Sincerity and charity go hand in hand!
Don’t worry, when I said “you” I wasn’t referring to anyone in particular.
You’re right, Latter-day Saints don’t believe in the Trinity, and they hold to Henotheism. Although, even though they think Mary was a mostly normal person, they do believe in a Heavenly Mother, but the identity of that mother is unknown.
@@KnuttyEntertainmentare you saying you can't be nice, tolerant, and interested if you don't care for Latter-day Saint theology? I think one can be all those things and not believe (or even see merit) in certain beliefs, be they LDS, Catholic, etc.
I was saying don’t pretend to be more open minded than you are. I find Greek Mythology very interesting. But I think it’s completely wrong. If I was talking to a pagan, I would be interested in their beliefs, but I would be upfront that my interest is scholarly, and that I have no interest in adopting their ideas.
That’s especially important if you want the other party to adopt your ideas. They would be quite soured to find out you expected them to change, all while faking your own intentions to consider their case.
I’ve been enjoying watching Joe on Shameless Pot Pourri. Jokes aside, I do enjoy the work you both do for apologetics. As a fellow Catholic, I pray the best for you all, and even for those here that are LDS members.
Trent, thanks for always being respectful. I would love to see you have Mormon theologian and apologist Blake Ostler on your channel. I'd be happy to help put the both of you in contact in any way I can.
@@macj9585 Jesus was not respectful of false religions
Joe's parents are my godparents! I am so blessed to have them as godparents, they are wonderful people so it's no wonder Joe turned out so great!
More of these collaborations please!!! My two favorite Catholic apologists 😊
There has been an unofficial Catholic UA-cam series on Mormonism between Counsel of Trent, Shameless Popery, and Pints with Aquinas.
We all talk to each other lol. -Kyle
You should do videos with Latter-day Saint UA-camrs, Jacob Hansen of thoughtful faith, and the Ward Radio guys would love to collaborate.
@@KnuttyEntertainmentPretty sure Jacob was supposed to do a debate on PWA and backed out. (Or maybe it was another YTer)
I follow this closely and haven’t heard of this, can you give me some sources?
@@KnuttyEntertainment i think he's thinking of Robert Boylan who decided not to debate Jimmy Akin on Pints because the topic was too broad. There was a community post about it on PWA a week ago.
I have had great experiences with Mormons as neighbors and co-workers. I find them to be down-to-earth, hard working, family focused, and helpful towards others. I am glad you two are trying to avoid the caricatures.
They are almost always exceptionally kind, wholesome people who live out their faith. Their biggest downfall is the errancy of their church, but they would make fantastic Christians if they would convert and receive a valid Baptism!
I live in Nevada, a lot of Mormons here.
Wonderful people, I really love them.
I'm in love with a woman who was raised Mormon, I tell her a little about Catholicism.
Maybe one day she will convert
Maybe one day you will :) There is a good reason we're in a different Matrix.
If the Lord is willing and if the creek don't rise !
@AnarSchism, or learning about Roman Catholicism will make her know she does not want to join it. The more I learn about Roman Catholicism, the more certain I am to not join it.
@Hamann9631
Thanks.
I forgot about this comment.
She's engaged to a guy who was raised Catholic.
Neither of them are inclined to believe anything, other than maybe there is a God.
I have been around a long time.
Nearly 70 yrs.
Seems like there are nice people and not nice people in every belief
I love "Shameless popery!"
Don’t you mean ‘shameless potpourri’
For those that don’t know the subtitles at least in Joes early videos would always show ‘shameless potpourri’
Hence why several people ask Joe to make a shameless potpourri items for sale 😂
Joe is ultra based
I don't know where I heard that phrase before and had even used it once as a joke so it was fun to discover his channel so many years later.
Maybe he should bring in a guest named “The Seamus Papist@ 😂
Great discussion of my faith by these two. I appreciate the method and content of their discussion. It’s helpful to have conversations that help us truly understand where we agree and where we differ. I’ve enjoyed listening to Trent’s videos on sola scritura and sola fide (sp?) as these are topics I’d say we are in fairly good agreement on and Trent makes great cases for his positions. Would love to see either of these two have a discussion with a similarly reasonable member of my church.
Awesome team 👏 🙌
Im LDS, and i wish to thank you for your fair explanation of my church! ❤
Early Islam was indeed a Christian heresy, but it later evolved into its own religion.
Heresy
No just no
@@ironrex6979? just ?
@@fantasia55 Simply no. It will always be a heresy.
@@ironrex6979 Muslim is it’s own religion, way beyond a heresy.
Wonderful insights Trent and Joe
As a Latter-day Saint, thank you for an honest and thoughtful conversation concerning my Church. One point of interest is you stated that you felt our theology didn’t provide a great response to new age atheism. I find that interesting as I feel that Latter-day Saint theology answers many questions that atheists raise that I feel traditional Christianity doesn’t have great answers for. For instance, I feel it answers existential questions better of who we are and what is our purpose. I feel it answers the problem of pain very well and what is the ultimate cause of pain. I feel it answers if mankind really has agency independent of God and who is responsible for our actions. It answers more clearly who God is and what is His purpose. I find the doctrine that we are the same species as our Father and we can become like Him to be beautiful and makes so much sense.
I find the my doctrine very compelling and feel it goes deeper and answers more questions than I have seen provided by most other religions. Having not been raised in it, I can see why you find it strange and incorrect from your understanding of the scriptures.
That is my two cents. Thanks again for this discussion.
I agree with this whole heartedly. Most criticisms I've found generally stem from, "your theology is weird" and "that's not Christian" which aren't arguments at all. Many Christians end up using atheist reasoning to discredit the doctorine or the church, not realizing that that same logic can be used against them. Everything in the end comes comes down to faith.
By their fruits you shall know them.
I wish you could do a series on non denominational christians. I k ow it's a tough subject but my best friend, his wife, their 3 kids, the mother in law, my wife, my grandmother and several of my friends are all being drawn to this non denominational church. It's basically baptist without oversight but the problem is they protest apologetics altogether. They see it as a tool of division rather than a system of defense.
I wonder if that's what's preached at those services. I just found out that a cousin of mine started attending a non-denom church and she couldn't answer questions either.
@michellehorn2023 Everyone that goes there just says they like it because they preach from the Bible. When I ask about specific doctrines they take off running like I said a bad word. It's like a check your brain at the door and enjoy the presence of God kind of church. I looked at their website and it's typical baptist theology behind it all. Believers baptism, sola scriptura, sola fide, and PSA. When I ask about that, their response is "well that's basic Bible truth" I say it's basic baptist truth but they take it as traditional Christian biblical beliefs. It's like trying to get your hands around an oily snake. Very hard to pin them down, they all stray away from any kind of religious debate. I even tried to get them to look into the scientifically verified miracles of the church and the look I get is deer in headlights. The results are zilch. It's like they act like I'm trying to trick them. The worst part is all of them keep coming at me with level 1 anticatholic stuff like "call no man father" "all have sinned and fallen short" "salvation by faith rather than works so no man may boast" all the simple ones. I bat them away pretty easily but they take my defense like I'm trying to convert them. I've never met christians more defensive in that way.
Yes I completely agree. Because often they don’t really have anything that sort of resembles a sacrament or a sacrament but with their own interpretation. It’s usually a very simplified belief.
@@timboslice980 The Calvinist.....ugh! You'd think when the "anti" rederick stuff started they'd question the motives. Keep planting those seeds! Good bless.
@@xsantosofficialx1782 It really is a very poor "denomination"
It has no depth. Their adherents are _encouraged_ to not have any depth. If it isn't explicit in the Bible then it's "not important" even with completely natural conclusions derived from Biblical truths.
You start using the Bible as it was meant, by reading and contrasting several tracts of Scripture, and they get lost. How can I justify biblically the Perpetual Virginity of Mary if they are unwilling to read the Bible except verse by verse?
“The model that the trinity uses is a model that is native to Jewish culture, its native to ancient Israel.” - Benjamin D. Sommer biblical scholar and Jewish theologian. Professor of Bible at The Jewish Theological Seminary of America and Senior Fellow at the Shalom Hartman Institute. There is an old jewish doctrine that points to multiple "Powers" in heaven. I recommend reading these 2 books: The Jewish Trinity and Two Powers in Heaven.
Great episode!😊
I was Mormon. Both sides of my family are Mormons, have been for generations. The wisest man I have ever know, my grandfather, was Mormon.
I say all this to preface the fact that nothing broke my heart like taking the bible to my then bishop and said here in John it says " in the beginning was the word the word was with God and the word was God. All things were made; and without him was not anything made was made." How could there be anything before God then? And his response was to say that passage didn't mean what it said and denied the word of God.
I wept to know the church of my family is false. It breaks my heart to this day
That is very brave of you but remember the Word of God is what will sustain you and lead you to salvation. You are in my prayers.
What did you do after you realized that your faith wasn't true.
Did you remain in the faith for the sake of your family....or did you join another religion?
My prayer for you is that you didn’t become Atheist, and that you found a new church home where you can freely explore the Holy Bible!
I'm sorry for the experience that you've had and also happy that you've been able to maintain faith in God through your crisis of faith here.
As a Latter-day Saint, I'd like to try to answer what you said by way of good faith and love, not argument or belittling.
I would answer:
a) God is an eternal being so by definition there cannot be anything before him. If your bishop denies this he has some kind of misunderstanding. While we'd hope bishops are excellent sources of doctrine, I'm sure you know that's often not the case.
b) "In the beginning" assumes a beginning of some kind of time frame, and thus may not actually be commenting on whatever timeframe preceded it. This defense is, of course, more relevant to a defense of "infinite regression" which assumes our God was created by His God, etc. ad infinitum. While open-minded, I personally reject infinite regression. But even so, the "in the beginning" line by definition is only commenting on the beginning of some timeframe (presumably the creation of the world) and not any timeframe preceding it, so in your analysis I'd ask you to consider that.
Not sure if clearly articulated, but I hope that offers a little bit of insight on my perspective.
Your grandfather probably knew that the existing verse is truncated a bit from the original version John recorded. We need more wise men like him.
I can do a debate against myself if you would like.. I am a cradle Catholics that was LDS for 19 years and returned to the Catholic faith after being drawn to the Eucharist. I find myself aggravated with them because of the disrespect for Jesus Christ but they do not even see it, on the other hand, I find myself defending them all the time. lol.
I asked my friends about the abortion in cases in rape and incest and they told me they leave that to the prophet and they are fine with it. 😮
I was an Lds member for over 40 years and I hear your concerns on the lack of respect towards Jesus. When he is not portrayed as our God but just a little “g” god, or big brother, the reverence for him in the real presence is highly underrated…even though they still practice a sacrament in “remembrance of him”. That is one of the reasons my heart and head has become drawn towards the Catholic Church. Pray for me please.
@@mollyedwards7494 I will be praying for you and reach out to me by private message any time you need to chat. It is hard when you leave because they claim to hold our salvation and exaltation in the palm of their hands as well as that of our families. Plus you lose your entire social network.
I did not know they didn’t consider Jesus to be God as part of the godhead until after I returned to the Catholic Church and one of the missionaries snapped at me saying, “Jesus is not God”. At Christmas time the bulletin board was not decorated with an image of Jesus or the Nativity, it was decorated with garland and a picture of Russell M. Nelson. I couldn’t be upset with the people because that is what they were taught. The quote by Joseph Smith saying he held a church together better than even Jesus Christ should make anyone who loves Christ leave but nope, multiple people said, Joseph had every reason to boast because he did keep a church together longer than Jesus Christ did. That infuriates me because to me they clearly do not understand that while the apostles and Christian martyrs were being killed and those who did not believe leaving, the church was not falling apart but coming together. In the hymn Praise to the Man they sing that the earth (meaning the people of the earth) will have to atone for Joseph’s blood shed. Why? If we do not have to atone for the blood of Christ shed, why in the heck would we have to atone for Joseph’s blood? I left the church before realizing all these things and now it is very hard to stay calm. Every heart string tugging story I was told was a lie and the leaders know it. The people believe them to be true and by controlling their access to truth and labeling those who leave as lost or apostates there is no chance to help anyone. I love the people but I really am upset about all the lies told that continue through today.
@mollyedwards7494 Have you heard of RCIA? It's starting at Catholic Church's right after labor day. You can go to learn what Catholics believe if you are interested.
@@mollyedwards7494 You do realize that the Church is called the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The priesthood we bear is the Priesthood after the Order of the Son. The Baptism and blessings we give start in the authority of Christ, in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost. The prayers we say are in the name of Jesus Christ. The name we take on ourselves in the Sacrament is Christ's. There is no little 'g' in our respect to Jesus. I am very awed that someone would have that perspective and actually have been a member. Its like going to school still never learning to read. He is literally the only reason we have a Church to begin with. It is not the Church of Heavenly Father or Joseph Smith or Brigham Young. It is rightfully the Church of Jesus Christ. Whatever lack of respect you felt in the Church is clearly a representation of your own ignorance and not the attitude of the Church generally.
@@jacobsamuelson3181 wow , what a way to undermine someone's faith. It's clear you people don't like it when someone leave your false church.
Get over it
Repent and come into full communion with the Catholic church , the one true holy Catholic and apostolic church that Jesus Christ established on the rock of St Peter and has been standing for 2,000 years!
Glory to Jesus Christ 🙏☦️❤️
Mormons are wonderful people. I just can’t agree with their theology on too many levels, and I appreciate Trent for keeping us all honest by telling us not to be judgy. Bc tbh that’s me. I can be like that. 😢😅
LOL, from someone who literally worships cannibalism and propitiatory human sacrifice!
@@Link25
Do you deny that the literal worship of a human sacrifice is the core tenet of Christianity?
Paul created Christianity in 48 AD and this is how he put it:
Romans 8:32
"He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all."
1 Corinthians 5:7
"Christ our passover is sacrificed for us."
Romans 3:25
"God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement."
Romans 5:8
"God showed his great love for us by sending Christ to die for us."
Hebrews 10:10
"We are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ."
@@EvilXtianity posting single verses doesn't strengthen your argument argument. Yes, Jesus is the Lamb but he also resurrected. Without the Resurrection there would be no Christianity.
@@StringofPearls55
_"Yes, Jesus is the Lamb but he also resurrected."_
Provide evidence that Jesus existed.
Ironically, His Resurrection is one of two events in Jesus’ life that almost all scholars agree did happen.
Jesus was not only written about in the Bible, but also by Jewish writers such as Josephus and Roman writers such as Tacitus.
You can start your search for ancient writings on Jesus here, although I fear even history won’t convince you if His existence.
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sources_for_the_historicity_of_Jesus
As a LDS member who went to rica and seriously considered Catholicism for a while, and someone studying philosophy, I thought this was very charitable!
Another thing on why some Saints get offended by not being called Christian: I think because the average LDS don’t really care about the metaphysics of their view of God, they focus far more on orthopraxy than on orthodoxy. And to them, being a Christian (in their use of the term), means being a Christ-like person, being a literal Saint, while obviously the Nicene Christian tradition sees the creeds as one of the essential parts of its own self-definition. So we talk past each other.
Hopefully you sign up for RCIA again and are able to be in full communion with Christ true church in this side of heaven!
Glory be to Jesus Christ 🙏☦️❤️
@@jackleonard2240
They are not Christian because they believe in a false Jesus from a false book, written by a convicted conman.
@@jeffs4483 that’s not charitable
@@Hithereitsme32
Neither is the LDS.
Would love to see this conversation happen with some additional insight from Steve Pynakker of @MormonBookReviews. He's an Evangelical who stresses open and charitable dialogue on this subject. He's had Catholics on, too. Great video, thanks!
7:35 I would just being up a quick correction about the Knights of Columbus, our exemplification (initiation ceremony) is now public and can be witnessed by anyone.
I just want to say that all of this is spot on. I’d like to point out that a lot of the conversation that Christians have about Mormon doctrine about the God Head is really not commonplace among practicing Mormons. To many of them, they see their faith as one of many Christian denominations, just one that has apostolic authority and priesthood. They rarely talk seriously about the big issues you bring up and relegate it to “deep doctrine” discussions which even then are considered mysterious and beyond understanding. This emphasis on submitting to priesthood authority really characterizes the faith. It’s what drew people in but it is also what leads to problems when those in authority are allowed to contradict time honored beliefs and rewrite them as they would like to believe. Often, conversations about these very important doctrinal points devolve into “well, I trust in the authority of so-and-so”. It actually becomes an interesting case study when discussing Sola Scriptura and where authority really comes from.
Mormanism is basically catholicism in practice. People who just want to be told by men they worship what to think.
@@jwatson181 in Catholicism we are encouraged to ask questions though
Lay theologians have existed since antiquity and their presence has been welcomed
Mormon theologians though they just don't exist, I don't think
Have you ever done a video on inventions that Catholics had that revolutionized the world, if you haven’t that would be a good video idea to me
I was christened Catholic, but I have studied theology for more than 60 years, which is one big reason that I converted. Continued...
Islam started as a Christian heresy 32:33
Very critically and charitably engaging.
The Catholic Church is the actual Church of Jesus Christ of ladder day (and all seasons) saints, since it has been for 2000 yrs and has the most overwhelming evidence for it; to start Mat 16:18 “Now I say to you that you are Peter (which means ‘rock’), and upon this rock I will build my church, and all the powers of hell will not conquer it.” NLT
Do some more exegesis on that scripture and it will surprise you on what it means
Mormons believe in a Great Apostacy.
@@ItsSnagretAgreed, the phrase “the gates of the nether world shall not prevail against it” has at least two meanings both of which disprove common Protestant and Mormon objections against Catholicism. One: it means that peters office will not end in his death but will continue on. Second it means that the devil will have no power to destroy the Church, that the Church will always remain despite the many apostasies that occur.
@@SevereFamine The Protestant position is not that the Church was destroyed or anything like that. Only that the institutions of the Church have produced errors and we shouldn't bind ourselves to those errors.
I don't know, the Orthodox keep telling me that they were the Church founded by Jesus 2000 years ago and haven't changed since.
One thing that I have used to trip up Mormons is to point out their flip flop on contraception. It’s hard for them to explain their massive moral changes on this and polygamy which seem geared to simply appease.
They have to accept contradictory doctrine from God to accept their faith. Sorta like Islam.
Mormons will hold to a type of "abrogation", where newer doctrine overrides older doctrine and teachings.
How are Catholics doing with contraception? Define flip flop.
@@HaleStorm49 having a moral law and then suddenly changing your official stance on what a sin is. It’s hard to find any approval of contraception at all in Mormon literature or guidelines until very recently, like within the past 20 years. But now on the LDS website they have the generic protestant position that it’s a “private” choice “between couples.” Catholics in good standing are 100% on contraception because it’s a mortal sin. We can’t prevent people from disobeying and calling themselves Catholic, but we at least don’t change our rules to fit in with society.
@@HaleStorm49For a church to flip flop they would teach one thing definitively and then later teach a partial or total negation of that same thing later. The Catholic Church on the other hand has clearly taught against contraception in all cases for all time.
Christian = Baptized in the name of the Holy Trinity and believes in the Nicene Creed.
Amen
Did 1st Century Christians confess faith in the Nicene Creed?
@@DesertPrimrose They had the believes written down in the Nicene Creed. They also didnt have the Bible, so did they believe in the Bible?
@@DesertPrimroseYou're approaching it backwards. The Nicene Creed are the beliefs of 1st century Christians written down and codified
Paul warned in the NT that in the latter days that people would not endure sound (logical) doctrine, and frankly there are few if any doctrines more unsound or illogical than the athanasian creed (doctrine of the trinity). Is it logical to pray to yourself, or to be able to sit on the right hand of yourself, or for part of you know when you will return return, but the other part won't, or when you are baptized, descend upon yourself while throwing your voice from heaven saying that too are well pleased with yourself?!? Continued...
This was very interesting, but I felt like an idiot when it comes to what Mormon's believe.
I was raised in the Mormon religion, and there was one thing I never could accept, the idea of the Great Apostasy. I still can't. I have a cousin who is LDS to this day. When I was going through my belief struggle, we discussed it almost daily, as we shared an apartment. When I decided on a more classic Christian view, suddenly in her mind, all of our discussions became my persecuting the LDS. It has been almost 40 years, and discussing this is still like walking on eggshells. I love her dearly, but this is a taboo subject.
Guess I've forgotten a lot of what she believes.
Trent doesn't do it so much but Eric Sammons, Patrick Fedora (I don't remember his name) Church Militant, 1 Pet 5 guy who left the church, Taylor Marshall and most of the other Catholic voices spend a majority of the time discussing how to remedy apostasy in the church today...but will likewise say they dont accept the idea of apostasy in 150 AD, or 300AD, 900AD or any time after...until say Vatican II, etc.
Why is the great apostasy a difficult concept to accept when apostasy in the present is rampant?
@@HaleStorm49 Those are really only Rad Trad Catholics talking about "Apostasy" in Vatican II and that isn't mainstream,
@@a_Catholic_Ant Im not sure I follow which argument you are making here. Are you saying that discussion of church apostasy isn't mainstream or that they are incorrect and it is not actually occurring?
@@HaleStorm49 No, I'm saying that in the case of Vatican 2 itself their is no apostasy, it's only Rad Trad saying that. Their is some merit in saying their is some apostasy in the Church (case in point sedevacantism), but I would like to add though that this isn't the whole church falling into heresy.
I'd say it's Trent's taste in music (Phil Collins, Peter Cetera) that makes him the world's youngest boomer. 🎶
Neither artist belongs to the boomers.
SUSSUDIO
@chasnikisher7006 They belong to VH-1. Ha..it was just a lol.
Video filled the radio star. (Rhymes with)
cmon, we all knew mormonism was for the loonies when it endorsed polygamy. like what man in his right mind would be masochistic enough to actually WANT more than one nagging ball-and-chain
That’s the point. Joseph Smith really really DIDN’T want to practice polygamy. Never really slept around either. He had like 10 kids with his first wife, and was never in a room alone with others. Not that his other wives were all that attractive, lot of old widows.
And even when the practice was expanded to the membership at large, it was often the case that you were assigned by your bishop to provide for the local widow and her children. You weren’t ever building a harem.
Plus there’s a lot of theological things going on in the background of the practice, and almost none of it is sexual.
Do you think anybody asked Moses, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, David, Solomon or any of the thousands of other prophets we don't know whether they wanted to practice plural marriage? I do like that Joel touched on the importance of asking good questions. Good advice.
@@KnuttyEntertainment Please go back and read the church essays on the topics, then search for the journals of each woman named. You are totally wrong. They have documentation of his booty calls at other members houses, him getting busted doing the nasty in the barn with Fannie Alger (not a spiritual wife), marrying 20 something women behind Emma's back, sending the father of teenaged sisters (whose mother died on a mission) then marrying both sisters while their dad was away. I was always told he only married women who were not married to a faithful Mormon man, nope he sent his leaders on missions then secretly married the wives. Just keep clicking the section asking if you want to know more then read the official journals. I am not saying this to hurt you... I just don't want you looking like a fool like poor Emma did when she finally found out.
@@catherinemcdavid1533 Simply wrong:
m.ua-cam.com/video/LOlm4lt3mts/v-deo.html
m.ua-cam.com/video/K1DUvorU2l0/v-deo.html
Love the timing after seeing people arguing about this online. Mormons are nice but I really feel like their beliefs are too far outside what an observer would group with other forms of Christianity.
Latter-day Saints are non-Nicene. They reject Classical Theism and Trinitarianism, ideas that developed from Ancient Greek thought centuries after Christ. If you define Christianity with those ideas, then Latter-day Saints aren’t Christian, but neither is the ante-Nicene Church by that standard. And the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is claiming to be a restoration of the ante-Nicene church, so it only makes sense.
@@KnuttyEntertainment this argument assumes Nicea changed christianity rather than ratifying it. That's an absurd anti historical idea!
@@KnuttyEntertainmentrevelation is developed over time so your comment makes no sense. They church has the authority to have a council because it’s founded by Christ. What exactly about the Nicene creed is bad. The two things you listed are pretty standard theology. If you think you’re smarter than church fathers then use your 300iq to explain you side. Idk where you got the idea that the council of Nicaea was guided by ancient Greeks lol.
I didn’t assume that Christianity changed by the time of the Nicene creed, I asserted it. The council itself doesn’t really matter to me. Most of the damage was already done by that point, no one had proper authority and they were adopting wrong ideas.
@@KnuttyEntertainment Yes, that's an absurd antihistorical assumption. Mormonism hinges on the supposed "great apostasy" which is completely incompatible with history. At least we discovered where the hiccup is.
So you wouldn't say that all or even most of ante-nicene so-called christians had the correct religion, right?
I am impressed how well you know LDS theology. Still agree with the LDS view.
Can you do a podcast on Seventh Day Adventist. Do you have one?
As an Ex-Mormon Christian (now Evangelical) I really appreciate this conversation and your desire for good dialogue with Latter-day Saints.
I'll add my thanks as a lifelong LDS to Trent and Joe for a model Christian engagement with our faith tradition. I've also appreciated the mutual respect shown by Trent when engaging with Protestants. I would not expect the Catholic Church to accept LDS baptisms for the reasons given. But, I would submit that in this age denominational baptism is not the right measure for identifying a Christian in interfaith dialogue (nor is it used for such in practice by most). I would consider a part of the Christian tradition any who earnestly confesses Jesus is LORD, is resurrected, and in whom exclusively is faith unto salvation, without diving further into definitional detail. The details are essential, just not for the purpose of othering an earnest disciple of Jesus of Nazareth.
I think the important detail is god being "other" vrs father. I love God the Father. I would revolt from a god that created us for entertainment purposes.
Joe is really great
As a former Mormon that converted to Catholicism, I definitely get bent out of shape when people say I wasn't a Christian. I most certainly was. I read the Bible. I prayed to God, in Jesus' name. Do Mormon's have a lot of misunderstandings? Absolutely. My primary argument to a Mormon would be that Jesus told us that the gates of hell would not prevail against His church. Joseph Smith's story about the angel telling him that none of the churches on earth were right and that he had to re-establish the church would make Jesus a liar. But I'm grateful to the Mormon church for being a stepping stone on my path to Catholicism. In fact, it was a Mormon apologetic called "A Marvelous Work and a Wonder" that started me on the path as it relayed a conversation between a Mormon and a Catholic priest in which the priest was reported to have said that the Mormons didn't know the strength of their own position- that either the Catholic faith was right, or the Mormon faith was, that protestants hadn't a leg to stand on because a living branch cannot come from a dead tree. When I concluded that Mormonism was wrong, that unforgotten passage started me on the path to Catholicism. And the more I read the Bible (an NIV version) and kept reading over and over in the Gospels and in the Epistles about how what you do matters, and how there is such a thing as sin that is deadly, etc., I began to look at the only two churches that really felt consistently followed the teachings of Christ. That would be Catholicism and Orthodoxy. Ultimately I came to the conclusion that Catholicism is the true faith, and I am home. But I was always a Christian.
Glory to Jesus Christ 🙏☦️❤️
Did the gates of hell prevail? No. But there was an apostasy. God prevails because He has the ability to restore His priesthood. God prevailed. Hell did not. Because God is omnipotent and omniscient.
@@DesertPrimrose If Jesus had to come back and re-establish his Church on earth, then the gates of hell most certainly did prevail against the first Church he set up. And he said that would not happen. I believe Jesus.
I will say LDS isn’t Christian but I refer to the doctrines in the church rather than every single individual. I think the more someone commits to LDS-specific beliefs, the farther they get from true Christianity. I believe that some Mormons may belong to the church but internally align much more with true Christianity, which seems to apply to you as well. Just my thoughts😅
@@dan-ch8kr I get where you're coming from. And I recognize that Mormons have a skewed view of the Trinity and of Heaven/Hell among other things. But they do believe in Jesus, they do practice baptism. I've never quite understood why Mormons are considered by the church to not be Christian, when protestant denominations that subscribe to a number or errors and even heresies are still considered Christian. Regardless, I'm definitely a baptized/confirmed Catholic now, thanks be to God.
Thank you for explaining though. It’s good to know what I believe and why.
Its cool to hear two catholics state the commonalities between our two faiths. I'm not super informed on deep Catholic theology so this was very informative.
Hi brother! I am a Protestant and I was decently perplexed by your statement on the church’s apostasy. A Mormon would indeed have a seemingly valid point stating that a prophet or other religious figure would be needed to lead the church into rebirth. It took me a second to find an answer to this and it is a great objection to my beliefs. Here is what I have come to believe about that in my relationship with God: Why go to a man, when the Word of God is sitting in your hands? Why have A prophet, when you can have all of their words as directed by God, and the words of the greatest prophet: Jesus, or God himself? I thank you for bringing this to my attention as it actually is a valid question to have. As a counterpoint it could be asked why Mormons would listen to someone who rejects the Theology of Christianity going so far as to reject the necessity of Christ as payment for sin, and even claims to be driven by a desire to make himself a god even to the point that he claims that a man has the power to level himself with God?
Again I thank you for the observation as it, again makes perfect sense at first glance. If you have any questions about the point I made, I would be happy to hear it. God bless you, have a wonderful day!
I do apologize if this comes across as rude I just wanted to respond to the question as, it was kind of surprising to me. It was a good point, and good points deserve an answer.
I’m also sorry if I write in a weird style, as I am kind of a robot when typing. Lol
God bless y’all
You should read the book the Great Apostasy.
Great questions. I find that one of the biggest fundamental differences among Mormons and what makes it so hard to reach them is that they deny that the Bible is the Word of God. They say the Bible was written by man, and man is subject to error, and they also bring up how the Bible has been translated many times. This honestly sounds sensible on the surface-level but it actually lacks so much faith and historical basis. Regardless though, that’s what they believe, and it’s why they believe they need a prophet to “restore” Christianity🥲
I would love for Catholic Answers and Apologia Studios to come together on the common ground of refuting the LDS church! I think it would be helpful for Durbin and all of them to see where Catholics are coming from. And that they agree with our councils on definitional Christianity.
Really encouraging and helpful episode. Great reminders of how to effectively evangelize rather than push people away.
Let it be done oh Lord!
Apologia doesn’t care for common ground. They jump unsuspecting people on the street and Bible bash them for views, deceptively filming people after saying they wouldn’t film their conversation.
_"...to come together on the common ground of refuting the LDS church!"_
LOL, from someone who literally worships cannibalism and propitiatory human sacrifice!
Apologia Studios is not catholic friendly. Does well with the anti-abortion and refutes LDS theology but he thinks very little of Catholics.
I don't think the Apologia guys would be down for it. They seem to hold a very deep disdain for the Catholic Church and they probably don't want to join them in anything.
34:01 Mormons just to clear up some beliefs, are not polytheistic because we believe 1 god, the father, is the highest of all and is in charge of all, his son, Jesus Christ, was sent here to do his will as well as the Holy Ghost. They have received there exaltation meaning they have all power to act and know everything. However primarily we pray to and seek guidance from the father.
Tell me agian where and how we get the doctrine of the Trinity ?
Thats what I thoght. Hmmm
A LOT of great thoughts just on dialoguing effectively and charitably in general.
Thank you for talking about labels and how useless they are. As a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints who refers to herself as an LDS Christian I very thoroughly appreciate it.
I will very fully accept that we have theological differences and our baptisms are not recognized by each other. I think that we can come together over our love of Christ and his infinite sacrifice for us.
My thoughts exactly
Whats your favorite jiu jitsu submission, Trent. We need answers
Probably the crucifix
Will you comment on the Pope’s recent remarks about American Catholicism?
These are two of my heroes
Trent, I’d be curious to hear your thoughts on this. If we have too narrow of a definition of “Christian,” don’t we render the term “heretical” meaningless? For example, no one calls an atheist or a Buddhist a “heretic,” as they are just straight-up totally different beliefs. On the other hand, everyone considers Arius a heretic, but his followers were called “Arian CHRISTIANS” by historians. I think “Christian” has to be broad enough to be able to separate heretical groups from orthodox groups. So, while I personally find their beliefs troubling and WAY outside the mainstream, I see an argument for classifying Mormons as “Christian” in an academic sense, given they believe in the Resurrection and self-identify as Christians. They’re just extremely heretical.
TL;DR I think if we classify early heretical groups like Arians and Gnostics as at least in some way “Christians,” we should do the same for modern heretics.
Needed to leave a comment to get rid of the 666 comments number haha
The dead cats thing about Luther is from a legitimate Guardian article by Kate Connelly that is reporting on an archaeological dig of Luther's home. Interestingly, the academic paper by Nebelsick and Emmerling does corroborate Luther lied about his wealthy upbringing and lifestyle (the man was a bit of a monster and verifiably antisemetic) but has no mention of dead cats. So it isn't that the claim is intentionally unfounded, it seems that Kennedy just trusted the Guardian to not lie to him. Now it's possible there are German exhibits from the dig or Connelly is citing someone not available in English, but as of yet, I can't find the primary sources on dead cats.
I think that still falls under making sure the information is supported. I can totally admit there are things I don’t know in life and often trust in sources who have the time and resources to pursue such topics.
Given the history of Lutheran as the Protestant Revolt leader, I think maybe spreading the line about killing cats and his less than ideal behavior should be brought up carefully. Maybe once a study or source compilation is done that puts all of that together would be best so there’s a deposit of resources people can look on their own.
After all, Abraham Lincoln did warn not to believe everything on the internet.
I looked up the Guardian article and it just says that they disposed of dead cats in the waste bin. It seems like a stretch to conclude from that that Luther was murdering cats as a child especially since the article doesn't even indicate that it was his childhood home. It seems strange to us but I don't know the cultural norms of disposing of cats in 16th century Germany, especially when cats were probably seen as a utility animal for catching rats rather than a pet.
I read that article before my video and it doesn't mention anything about Luther killing the cats. I doubt people of the 16th century gave pets fancy funerals. Cats were also more like rat patrols than beloved pets.
My mom told me that even as late as the 1970’s - it was common in the countryside that when your cat ended up pregnant…you would drown the kittens in order to keep the cat population down. Because if you let them live, they would inevitably be eating YOUR cat’s food (which was kept outside bc country cats are outdoor/indoor). Horrifying to me, but apparently very normal back then. My mom remembers her dad placing the new litter of kittens in a flour sack and chucking it in the pond on their land. He’s a good man too! So is my grandma! After her 2nd litter, they finally got her fixed so she couldn’t get pregnant again.
So, I imagine that in the 16th century…it wasn’t possible to get your cat spayed/neutered? Or that it was much less common to do so. I also doubt they had animal shelters or many vets around for cats. So with an increase in cat pregnancies that couldn’t be curbed by spaying and neutering…it would probably be considered irresponsible to NOT drown/kill the cats that didn’t have owners, especially if they were overtaking the streets…filled with fleas…or harming your own pets.
So even if it’s true that Luther killed cats - I don’t see that as a problem. I think it would be the equivalent of someone coming into my house and finding a bunch of mouse traps in my attic with dead mice or a dead possum, raccoon, or snake in my dumpster. Nowadays we view cats much differently….but that wasn’t always the case.
Could you guys do more videos like this but discussing Islam in respect to Catholicism?
On your point in 24:37 I would have to say that while i understand the intent I cant really agree on this point. Especially as it concerns whether someone is a Christian or not. In my believe and understanding someone who does not affirm the trinity is not Christian. I am sorry if you reject the Trinity you do believe in a different God, ergo not Christian.
It seems that religions that have, let's call it bad prerequisites for apologetics, have to develop other kinds of pressures for proselytizing and preventing defection.
As a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saint I really appreciate your approach to discussing our differences.
Ivd been trying to better understand our Christian brothers and sisters' faith more, and podcasts like this are really good
People like Jeff Durham are a real turn-off acting like he knows my faith better then I know it
So to sum up I 💯 agree with what you said about how to approach "mormons" don't belittle and don't call our garments "magic underwear" 😅🙄
I've got a hundred reasons to be critical of LDS, but your group having your own distinctive rules for dress ain't one. Calling it magic underwear is just being petty and mean spirited.
I wear a cross as my reminder of my faith and I use a Rosary to pray intentionally about something or for someone. The LDS garments are as sacred to you as wearing a cross is to me. You don’t wear garments to offend anyone, and likewise I don’t wear a cross to offend anyone! I could never look with any disdain on someone who upholds their spiritual belief and personal devotion. If we could all seek to have greater understanding and compassion, we’d be a lot further down the road and demonstrating Jesus’s commandment to “Love our neighbors as ourselves.”
@irishmclass2042 I love that thank you! ❤️
@@irishmclass2042 I’m offended (actually more disgusted) that you wear a Roman torture/execution device.
@@iemy2949 archeologist found a cave with inscription on it dating from 2AD, the cave was a hidden chapel of sorts (since bring Christian in that time was dangerous) and inside there is a cross. This cross (which you are so offended by) is the same symbol that the faithful have been using since the time of Jesus.
Here's a quick video of said cave:
ua-cam.com/video/cH6BJDxQjAU/v-deo.htmlsi=WrKhSC4RzYqDtO3s
Also, science backs up the fact that matter/energy can not be created or destroyed! The Hebrew word "barrau" which was translated as create really means to organize and not to make something from nothing! That is as impossible as to make two and two be correctly give!! Continued...
Does Trent have any Q & A session ?
Catholics were way too soft on this topic.
LDS leadership & past prophets including the pedophile Joseph smith taught that all the creeds are an abominations to God & all the Catholic leadership including with all churches are Corrupt. That they are the only true church of Jesus
“I have always declared God to be a distinct personage, Jesus Christ a separate and distinct personage from God the Father, and the Holy Ghost was a distinct personage and a Spirit: and these three constitute three distinct personages and three Gods,” (Teachings of Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 370).
It’s very relevant to talk about Mormons since they’re heavily involved with the TV show “The Chosen” which many Catholics I like. i haven’t nor intend to watch that show.
I tried to watch it but it's just too goofy. They didn't do the best job of casting their characters. Peter and Mathew...ugh!
It's an awesome show. It really humanizes the first century Christians.
I love that show
I don't want to sound mean. Really. But - why would anyone dedicate their lives to a religion founded by a guy named Joe Smith living in upstate New York? It just always seemed absurd on it's face, and the nutty beliefs do nothing to dispel that but only reinforce it.
Or for that matter a guy named Jesus of Nazareth or Paul of Tarsus from 2000 years ago? What’s the difference?
@@iemy2949 Hi, friend. Again, I don't want to be disrespectful, but your question is precisely the mindset that could induce otherwise rational people with a christian upbringing to follow a guy named Joe Smith. Or Jim Jones. Or Sun Myung Moon. Or Ann Lee. Or David Koresh. Or any other deluded person with a Messiah complex.
@@rhwinner This from a person who, respectfully, belongs to the largest and most destructive cult in human history. Amazing.
@@iemy2949No
As the other guy pointed out, Jesus of Nazareth was a seemingly ordinary man from the boonies. While I don't believe Joseph Smith was a prophet, his status as a seemingly ordinary man is not the way of questioning that position.
12:57 they don’t reject solo scriptura , they literally believe the Bible was adulterated and rejected it. The most famous thing between us is: we don’t need the Bible, we have the BM.
Literally no LDS person would claim to not need the Bible because The Book of Mormon exists. It is *another* testament of Jesus Christ. "In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established." 1 Corinthians 13:1
@@DesertPrimrose have you noticed what happened with the 3 ones? each one of these three witnesses was excommunicated from The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints by about eight years after the publication of their testimony. I’m sorry but you need to study more about your religion. Good luck.
@@Lovecatholicfaith sweetie, I know about my religion. I was referring to the Book of Mormon being a witness of Jesus Christ in addition to the Bible.
On the off-topic subject of three witnesses that you randomly brought into the discussion, none of them ever denied their testimony of The Book of Mormon. Two of them were rebaptized into The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Good try, though 👍
12:47 the garments have signs or symbols on it . This signs are like answers when you died, because for pass by the angels you have to know the signs. It so confused for memorized and we have to go to the temple a lot of times to memorize it.
Also, if you examine carefully the second chapter of Daniel, we know already that Christ set up His kingdom during the time of the iron legs (the Roman empire) which begs the question; why did it need to be set up in the days of the kingdoms of part iron and clay (the last days)! Continued...
34:00 Ironically, Just as there requires sophistication to understand the Trinity as not three Gods, LDS can say the same thing that it requires sophistication to understand that our beliefs is not polytheistic in almost an identical manner.
Love the episode
Love the thumbnail. We Mormons do in fact look like that 😂😂😂
@9:30 Which religious group does is this most accurately describing?
Thank GOD FATHER & HIS WIFE, GODDESS MOTHER, for restoring THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST, back on earth, in these LATTER DAYS.
You should do a video with Jacob Hansen of Thoughtful Faith or the Ward Radio guys.
Knutty why don't you just go on?
@@HaleStorm49 I’m fine with that.
@@allieooop3923 Yeah, good video.
@@KnuttyEntertainment I'm thinking Trent wouldn't appreciate the misleading way his beliefs were presented.
@@allieooop3923 Jacob wasn’t saying that Trent is line with Latter-day Saint teachings, he was talking about how the types of arguments he used ultimately lead to those conclusions.
Just found your channel from your debate with Destiny. I'm a life-long member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and I loved this discussion. It reminds me of the videos that Pastor Jeff has been making with his channel "Hello Saints" (another channel which I also love)
LDS is not Christianity.
@@jeffs4483Sounds like someone didn't watch the video... 🙄
@@tasamolic
I was LDS for many years before converting to Christianity. Haha, nice try.
@@tasamolic
Sounds like someone doesn't understand what the LDS is... 🙄 Haha, thanks for the Laugh.
I like this guy Joe he’s reminds me of a based catholic Seth Rogan 🤣💯😬 great Video ✝️🇻🇦⛪️🙏🇺🇸🦅
Airwolf…. I knew I loved Trent for more reasons than just his apologetics
"many protestants hold to a great apostasy" "some protestants don't hold to a great apostasy" (that is a sloppy characterization; it should be flipped)
Top notch material. I’m an active Latter-day Saint who recently subscribed to your channel and look forward to fair-handed discussions like this!
Short answer, "Yes."
I appeciate your treatment of LDS doctrine but I think you are glossing over the idea/concept of intelligences in the bigger scope of LDS creation doctrine. What does it mean that intelligences including God existed before material?
If you're struggling to find Mormon Apologetics, I bet WARD RADIO could find you a person to represent that side.
Yep, it's easy. I would do it happily and so would Henderson.
I had to get baptized when I converted from Mormonism, conditionally due to my parents looking at a lot of different Christian denominations and I couldn't get a straight answer from my mom. Not her fault cause ya know, she thinks Mormon baptism erased all the others. Father Lewis, the parish priest, said "don't worry, we'll make it happen." It was one of the best experiences of my life thus far. Felt like I was waling on a cloud the rest of the day.
It’s almost like Mormons actually believe the scripture that we are offspring of god
I don't want to rule my own universe if that's ok.
I'm LDS, and neither do I ❤
Why don't the Catholics, Protestants, Orthodox, Jehovah's Witnesses, and Mormons work it all out among themselves as to what is the "one True" version of Christianity...and THEN come after us agnostics and atheists. After all, what if we pick the "wrong' Christianity???
Mormonism is a whacky cult and nothing else. These two guys here are being fake and bending over backwards to be “nice” to a dangerous cult.
It is completely wrong to say that it is not useful to debate “if Mormons are Christians.”
I think a better approach is do Catholics embody more Christlike attributes compared to the typical member of the lds church?
At the end of the day, religion has a purpose. If your Christianity is not making you more Christ like than I doubt anyone will care what things you bring up.
Something that you won’t hear a lot from Mormons, when speaking to other Christians, is the differences that we have. I like being different from the rest of Christianity. I see too many Latter-day Saints try to convince wider Christianity that we’re all in the same club. If the Protestants and the Catholics don’t want you, good. I don’t want to be in your club, because we are different. If I was trying to convince you that we were in the same club, I wouldn’t be a Latter-day Saint.
I like they way you defined our God vrs your God. We do look at God as an Organizers not an everything came out of him type creator.
As a protestant searching the Catholic church what would be a good reliable translation of the Catholic bible with more modern wording?
The RSV & NRSV (Catholic Editions) are pretty well used. The main "Catholic" translation is the New American Bible Revised Edition, which is what you will hear read from at Mass. The translation is fine, but the standard footnotes that go with it are often highly influenced by modernist and critical scholarship and are often problematic. I have heard they are re-working these and hopefully they will be more representative of faithful scholarship, rather than skeptical scholarship.
For specific bibles, the Word on Fire Bibles are spectacular in all ways and uses an NRSV. They have beautiful art, chunks of commentary from Bishop Barron, Church Fathers, and other Christian figures. The Ignatius New Testament Study Bible uses the RSV translation and has solid study notes.
The Catholic Adventure Bible is also well-reviewed (but I've never used it) and uses an RSV translation.
Also , it's RCIA time of year. If you're interested in possibly becoming Catholic best thing is to go to the RCIA class at your nearby Church. Classes start real soon@😊
Yeah I have been in contact with my only Catholic church in my town of rural Georgia the Catholic Church has answered some questions for me that the protestant church refuses to answer that being said it's hard for me I was raised protestant my whole life although I do feel like Christ is leading me toward his true church.
@@DivineMercy0414 Totally get that. My parents and wife were less than thrilled, but the Lord has been really good to me,and nothing is better than being able to receive the sacraments!
@@DivineMercy0414 Did you ever hear of Tim Staples from Catholic answers? He was a pastor either Baptist or AOG. Well his family was upset at first when he became Catholic but then they all converted. You never know what could happen. Be not afraid!! 😇
Trent--there's an established youtuber who became a Jesus follower just recently...he is a machine when it comes to studying (and interpreting) the Bible and he's very impressive and sincere....he's denying the Trinity and I was wondering what someone like you would think of his theology. It's Young Don Reborn (found him thru Ruslan.) Thank you.
Ooops...you actually address this at 29:00. The baptism. Thank you.
Perhaps he’d like to be Mormon or JW. They both deny the Trinity. And he’s playing his own personal interpretation over those who were taught the Apostles from the beginning of the faith
I would disagree with some of your representations of what we teach in the Church, but not due to any dishonesty just limited experience or not looking at things from within the perspective of the church. What I mean is there are some built in assumptions from your experiences that colour how you interpret what we teach (for e.g. we would not view God having a physical form or disbelief in ex nihilo creation to be limiting God).
But it is a very good faith discussion. I very much appreciate the section on "are Mormons Christian". I of course think we are as we are trying to the best of our ability to follow Jesus Christ and his teachings, but it is important to hammer out what we mean by it. I think we need a good definition to have any discussion. The best phrase to use a lot of the time is "what do you mean by that".
Some, are extremely lacking knowledge of, THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER DAY SAINTS.