This is how PARADOX NEEDS to balance HOI4
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- Опубліковано 12 чер 2024
- Join us on Feedback IRL for an in-depth discussion on the prevalent issue of power creep in Hearts of Iron IV. In this video, we'll explore the challenges posed by the imbalance of power dynamics within the game and delve into the root causes behind this phenomenon. From overpowered mechanics to disparities in national focus trees, we'll identify key areas contributing to power creep and propose innovative solutions to restore balance and fairness to the gameplay experience. Whether you're a dedicated player or a curious observer, this discussion offers valuable insights into the intricacies of game design and the ongoing efforts to maintain a dynamic and engaging HOI4 environment. Tune in now to join the conversation and contribute your ideas to the solution!
-TIMESTAMPS-
00:00 Intro
01:00 Power creep solutions
08:42 Outro
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#hoi4 #heartsofiron4 #dlc - Ігри
Yeah. I think the problem is that you buy the expansion when the countries are powerful and almost immediately they aren't as good and not as fun. Feels like I immediately lost value after I bought the expansion.
I would have found it incredibly funny if Chile had a focus that grants cores on every coastal province in the world - and only the coastal ones! To balance this out, they'd have to struggle with massibely increased resistance in inland provinces.
I said this before in a previous vid about this DLC... I don't think this DLC is the problem it's a symptom. National bonus's for combat don't feel nationally inspired. Equally, there seems to be no vision for these bonus's. It feels very arvotrary who gets them for how much and why. This needs more work from a golistic viewpoint by Paradox
My issues with compliance as a requirement are its difficulty to increase during wartime and its generally passive nature, either requiring you to wait and postpone war participation due to its already low rate or you are only really able to do it after the wars end and there is no real incentive to keep playing.
A way to fix this, and potentially the issue of compliance in general, could be to give players more control over it outside of garrison laws. Imagine if you could toggle a state's resources not to be used and in exchange compliance ticks up higher - meaning no manpower or factories of that state are usable during it. Or if building inside of a state gave you a bonus to compliance for a time - a temporary buff to its tick rate instead of a set amount added because that in turn could be abused by big economies, snowballing them. There are several mechanics they could add, and, fitting your last video, they could have been a good feature addition for Trial of Allegiance.
Compliance makes sense as a mechanic, but we are missing one half of it mechanically and in terms of roleplay, to not just pacify a people but to try and win their favor. A nation wouldn't do it for a people they want to oppress, but certainly for one they want to integrate as brothers.
the fallout mod for hoi4 does it really well,
Portugal integrating Angola and Mozambique costs percentage political power and takes a super long time (think it was 720 days or something like that, can’t remember the specifics). I think it’s rightfully difficult to integrate as a colonial power is coring a colony, but makes the unifying South America coring mechanics seen wayyyy too easy and less costly.
coring as portugal gives you a huge recruitable pup percentage modifier like 40% by the time you finish both Angola and Mozambique
As someone who plays the US, I love it. With all the little revolutions and changes in government, it allow the US to reach 30% war support much quicker to unlock The Giant Wakes.
The main problem that I am seeing paradox have is the same problem that many popular mods have.
That they give nations too much stuff, they dont focus on the big picture and just prefer to go into meme paths.
You could have some haha funny Señor Hilter stuff, but more realistic, but instead they are just letting core all of germany.
Even in OWB the fallout mod, you need 95% compliance to core states! And that takes a lot of PP!
Owb is a shit mod and it's compliance system is too easy to game tbh.
I think that they released the DLC with the countries already being too strong. They should have released the DLC with like you said lukewarm bonuses to reflect the fact that it's obvious they can't easily beat any major power but still have interesting bonuses to fight against theirs neighbours. It's should be more challenging. I also agree that 15 dollars is too much for a focus tree only DLC. The overall picture of the game is damaged because of recent DLC being drop unbalanced.
Maybe for the Spirit of the Conquistadors, the 20% and other maximum level bonuses expire after a year but then get reduced to a smaller amount which is then permanent. Other than that I think we just desperately need the older dlc nations to have full reworks to bring them up to modern standards.
cone-key-stih-dor
I swear I felt my fathers turning in their graves every time he said that
Feedback, it is about 15 dollars I believe everywhere in the world, 15 dollars for a Brazilian and for an American is not the same
It does seem very op that Brazil can core a concured Argentina more easily than Spain can recore Spain after the civil war.
Spain gets around 15% Division attack for their conquistador path. Argentina should've been nerfed to be similar to that.
I'm not buying any Paradox expansions until 3 months pass after it's released. I bought this expansion after seeing it's content, played it briefly..and then Paradox nerfs it into the dirt. It feels like a huge bait and switch. I may not be able to get my money back because of it, but I promise you I will be much more wary on giving Paradox my money in the future.
Kaiserreich's Shandong focus tree is higher quality than this whole dlc.
I think expiring bonuses is 100% the way to go. Is Hoi4 not a strategy game? Timed Attacks are a classic of the genre. It makes so much sense to have really good bonuses that expire but push a player into war to take advantage of them.
I think there's a bit of a problem with your comment about the integration of the various regions in South America. You said you want it to cost more, to have more prerequisites and to take longer.
But on the flipside, many people (you included) did complain about the anarchist Spain mechanic where you need to have the province at a set compliance and then have to wait for a long time for you to get the core of the region.
Yes, there needs to be a better balance, but there will always be people who say that it's either too easy or not easy enough to do
I can't agree on the coring part.
ToA isn't bad because you gain the cores too simple. Imagine they had to jump through the same hoops as any Spanish fraction when re-coring their territory. It's just awful.
ToA is bad because you gain these cores for no apparent reason. It's bad because almost every ideology in every focus tree can core the same territory without a reasonable explanation.
When a PDX community guy mentioned he thinks the team did a great (first) job on this I really had to laugh. This dlc is 90% copypasta and renaming the focuses and that's not only for the shared miltary branch. The only exception is maybe Chile.
Overall ToA is mostly just soulles. You can't create the same stuff out of 500 years of being colonies gaining independence over time as you can create out of European history with its alt-history paths, that's obvious. Anyways slapping us with this uninspired bunch of seemingly identical alt paths is just a bad job.
THIS!!!! If you're gonna give countries cores at least make it be based on somethinig.... 😐😐😐
Another way of balancing those op focuses would be to make it so you take a hit to another part of your country ie X focus gives you a massive combat buff but while it is active you take a negative compliance, cp, xp or pp modifier. Its flavour to show that your empire is devoting its focus on conquest or whatever at the expense of other areas creating strengths and weakness that can be exploited by your enemies.
When something is deemed too strong, such as A>B. You don't nerf A, you buff B. Nerfing A makes players who liked A feel like you are kicking them down, while buffing B makes those who like B feel like they have had their concerns addressed without taking anything from players of A.
Buffing the non-SA countries to match this OP nonsense would end up with Germany world dominations in 2 years. Paradox went way over the top with this meme shit.
This is the words of someone who doesn't understand what the phrase "Power Creep" means, also it's called balance, if you do what you suggested, a situation similar to the one listed above would happen.
That's not a universally-good rule. If everyone's buffs were the same, it makes everything feel generic. Dave's suggestions were good because they make the SA bonuses unique, but limited. Also, it would be a lot of work to adjust every country instead of just a few.
@@tkc1129 I don't disagree with you about Dave's suggestions, they are good. As for buffs, they don't have to feel the same; if they do it's because of lazy game design. So if A has super subs you could buff B's ASW stats on DDs or Nav bombers for example. Or counter strong armour with buffs to Infantry piercing or CAS, rather than giving both side OP tanks. It isn't an easy thing to do, which is why a lot of games struggle with balance vs uniqueness of factions, and why a lot of bad games just give you all the same faction with different skins to make the devs lives easier.
@@commandergree6131 Power creep is an imbalance caused when newly introduced material is objectively better than the existing material. Ideally the devs would aim for things to be relatively equal in power, but when power creep does occur you need to restore equilibrium to the game (make all the choices viable). You do that by nerfing the new stuff, buffing the old stuff, or a combination of the 2. Nerfs are generally poorly received as it feels like you have been given something cool and then had it taken away. Buffs are generally better received as it feels like you've gained something. Sometimes nerfs are necessary, probably were in this case as some of those bonuses are WILD, but should be avoided as much as possible. It's generally better to buff the old stuff and make it feel refreshed than to take away new things, but at the end of the day the goal is balance in which all choices are viable.
I think a way to fix the national Spirits would be to improve the via decisions. So you would start with a plus 5% Attack and can increase this with Army xp or political power
I agree on coring but I really think that cores should be something based on history, not a button to core every province you own...
In the topic of gaining core on another nations territory. Maybe make it very expensive in time, political power, whatever, but make espionage speed it up. Use propaganda, trade missions, and other minor things that generally don't have a use in the game to dramatically speed up the process of coring territory. If you don't do the small things, then coring might take literally years, instead of months to achieve.
5:09 in owb you can core all the states in game its take enormus amount of pp and 95 % complience
Dave try the communist path for argentina, they also have the option to core S.A but it cost 75 pp with a -0.1 pp gain for the time of the desicion that I would say is more than thr Brazilian one. So at the end you need like more than 5000 pp and like 6 or 7 years ingame time. So it makes sence a "democratic" unios as America do sul would cost less than a communist utopia
why are nobody talking about the new special forces tree, and the cap modifier +30% and the -25% cap contribution ..you can have Half your battalions as special forces. and Finland is worse (they have focus that do the same). I think that I got the modifier so high (with Finland), that special forces battalions started to count toward the total ????? .. don´t know what happened, in the end I just build special forces and it was a never ending loop (must be some kind of glitch) but the bonuses are so broken. (maybe the Glitch happen when you also have a Commando high command +6 cap )... Finland can get a +45% cap modifier, with a -25% contribution, and a +6 cap.. (from what I just seen)
I feel like the limited amount of research slots is supposed to encouraged you to use market access to get licences for stuff you cant research yet.
It's illogical that argentina is that overpowered but some european country like czechoslovakia have a so bad focus tree it's not even fun to play, like there is no flavour, there is no goal, we need a goal. It's also illogical that thzy are different country but in alt hist they do almost the same thing at the end (except chili, it's a little bit different)
I dont see a problem with these op focuses. They dont affect the game at all in single player. If you playing as Germany do the new SA focus trees change the game at all? No they dont because the AI in SA does nothing.
It makes the game laggier and ruins immersion when some of the greatest industrial powers exist in South America in 1944
I think Dave is wrong.
The coring mechanics used are normally part of capstone focuses and either take huge amounts of pp or time to achieve.
We have had a ball playing all of the nations in the dlc and it has been worth it's price so far.
My only issue is that it just keeps highlighting how poorly designed or just unfun the early trees are - all of which deserve an update to this level of fun
I think coring cost should be dynamic, based on amount of people in the state. Cause i dont want to core lifeless jungle in the middle of nowhere for 200 pp around 300 days
I think applying the same way India removes agrarian society should apply for coring south America, where you need max infrastructure before you can core a province, and it costs a decent chunk (50 or maybe 75) of political power. This makes you invest civilian economy and Political Power to core a province, and I feel like it should be hard to core a province anyways.
I don't think south america needed a nerf I think other countries need a buff
They should have seperate things for MP and SP.
in SP/Co-op let the player(s) feel strong. It shouldn't really matter.
But because MP if something is "too strong" it gets nerfed until it's useless, and affects singleplayer. I don't know how big MP even is in HoI4. This is an issue in Warhammer, where things get nerfed and become useless in SP because multiplayer.
Multiplayer had nothing to do with this, most MP use their owns mods anyway. We are talking about singleplayer balance
@@willywonka6487 ah, yes, powercreep and multiplayer being mentioned multiple times is definitely talking about "single player"
@@IIITheDeadGamerIII its literally singleplayer. no one plays multiplayer. No one leaving negative steam reviews plays mp either.
@@IIITheDeadGamerIII He probably means paradox should not have considered multiplayer when balancing. only goofballs play Vanilla MP who as mentioned are goofballs and will have their fun since they are casual players usually. But Tryhard MP mods all have their own mods, players never wanted MP balance from PDX since there never was such a thing in vanilla.
Dave, Portugal takes 720 days tô core Angola and Moçambique
In my opinion, the worst part is that you completed the conquest of South America in 1941, at which time the great events had already occurred.
Also it is criminal how you can in no way get 5 research slots as any of these countries, Mapuche Chile having maximum 3 even, it's insanely stupid
So the Warlord can get 6 ID slots but a country made to conquest just 3? XD
I found this video interesting to say the least. Arguing that nerfs suck but while acknowledging that it’s OP. What is PDX supposed to do when their perspective is how to make the most amount of players happy and piss off the least amount. It’s a balancing act that I think no one can accomplish.
The hate on the DLC is mostly subjective which is fair but with a diverse customer base generally creates a bubble that people think their opinions are the majority without any evidence. I think the fact PDX pushback on power creep states they maybe the larger camp.
I will add to one of the issues missed it isn’t just that people think it should cost less. Though and I know I’m throwing a little shade to think a DLC will be the same cost after the kind of inflation the world has experienced in the last 4 years comes of as having little self awareness or entitlement issues. Back to the point regional pricing was way off due to the fact that certain markets were hit harder by inflation compared to Europe. While pricing didn’t scale with inflation it however didn’t account for relative to previous price points. For example DLC in the US roughly cost a pack of smokes when BftP came out and ToA is roughly the same. Pricing in South America and SEA didn’t scale the same.
Nordic was best it provided si much flavor
👍👍 hope they fix it
Really disappointed as an Argentine excited to see my country get a focus tree. The Kaiserreich team put more effort than the actual devs (although at this point this is a constant)
I was on the fence but now I won't be buying this country pack cause I never play here and the stuff it offers that seemed fun ain't in it. I like the idea proposed but it still seems lackluster imo. I never play in South America so I can say anything no incentive for it
They need to make the older national focuses be as good as these, not nerf new stuff that is actually more fun to play. They went the wrong direction.
I hate playing games that have a multiplayer community. I'm so goddamned sick of hearing about nerfing and buffing and OP and balance and all this bullcrap that basically all boils down to, "WAH I GOT BEAT IN THE GAME I WAS PLAYIN WAH RAGE QUIT!"
Dave bad. Dave like bad thing. Bad thing bad because Dave like and Dave have bad head.
I find that HOI 4 expansions should be bigger, bolder and more innovative. I think a huge issue people are having is they are buying a $15-$35 dlc that literately just adds minuscule focuses and rarely anything tangible to the player. A large dlc, adding what 2-3 of their DLCs add plus an innovative new feature would be of better value to me as a consumer. I understand that a large hurdle for them would be that they work on every dlc in separate development teams, but that is not what I see as a consumer nor what I care about. For $30 I can go buy a great indie game to sink hundreds of hours into over their $15 tiny dlc that I will probably put 1-4 hours of my time into. Time to money ratios are everything to gamers. We want to get lost in your content. But not if the price for our time is terrible. Plus, much of their old big country trees are now boring or outdated. America, Germany, and Japan are some of highest requested reworks that I have heard about. I personally think America needs a way better tree, especially given the dynamic political shifts. The alt tree is very anticlimactic. It represents no major change in the world as a major power either. This could all be solved with a simple solution: HOI4 is still one of their most active games with a huge player base, but they don’t have a custodian team. Which is a poor tactical decision on their part. They need one. It would solve many issues without the need for other dev teams to waste time adding or subtracting content from unrelated countries to their dlc (Canada*cough*). They could simply focus on creating a great dlc related to their passion project.
Tell me. Who was insane enough to even consider buying it?
For nations that lack man power would be horrible waiting for your cores, so no please dont do that, I already suffer enough with Sweden integrating the rest of scandinavia for 180 days and costing me daily pp
Isn't this just a rehash of Dave's previous video? Talk about being repetitive, the focus trees aren't the only ones... lol.
And its pronounced Con-KEE-stah-doors.
Hey Feedback, don't know if you will ever see this but I feel like you may be being a little harsh on paradox. When you say that certain people thought the focus trees lacked diversity, it wasn't clear if you thought that as well, but I am not sure this is a true statement. For example, Chile's fascist path, restoring the old kingdom, allows for only partial coring of South America, so the Chilean player does not become overpowered. You also say the focus trees lack creativity but both of the Chilean monarchist paths are extremely creative and based on real-life events. I have played both of these paths and I find them extremely fun and, for the first time, I find myself playing the game into the late 1940s because the focus trees are so large and intriguing. All of Brazil's paths are extremely fun, especially the democratic path, as well as Argentina's fourth Reich path. So I am not sure that it is really fair to be so harsh on Paradox in terms of diversity or creativity. This DLC is my favorite. On your point about powercreep, but I do not think the game would be nearly as fun if the requirements to core territory were harder to meet. That is one of the things that makes this DLC so fun is those on-map decisions allowing you to core individual states. Compared to the unite Scandinavia decisions that deny you coring if you don't control Jan Mayen or one small state. But I can agree with you that yes powercreep is an issue, but I think it is an issue for almost all multiplayer games.
Otherwise, I love your content and videos, they are what got me into this game in the first place, please keep up the awesome work!!!
I own this DLC, but I turned it off, I honestly prefer to play without it. Hopefully they give us a Shadows of Change level update to it, because this is just... Bad.
Im having a blast on trials of allegiance. Im 30 hours into it and just playing fascist argentina before my big ironman mode run
Coring is right. It is a language and culture community. England should have the same with the white commonwealth as well. Germany cores the German speaking cores. Why so much problem with the Spanish speaking cores?
Brasil is a brother, doesn't count.
It was the Bolivar dream
I don't know if anyone noticed, but they nerfed the Treaty with the USSR. It now only gives 1 200% bonus to armor instead of 2 100% bonuses.
That's a buff...
nerfing is good. better then op. i want to do different stuff kid,.
Team Nerfing
I disagree
Dave bad, Dave not good
😭
I guess I’m in the minority and have enjoyed it. I think it’s a real improvement over their last country specific one in battle for the Bosporus. I never play multiplayer so I can see where the changes would really be a detriment to multiplayer games. But I like the country I choose being strong. I like having the option of coring South America etc.
I will say some of your suggestions are well taken. Choosing when to implement a national focus is a great idea.