I've commented on this accident over on Dan Millican's Taking Off site but wanted to get this out to as many pilots as possible. Full disclosure, I'm a retired 27-year controller from a busy radar facility and an instrument rated pilot. I've read many NTSB accident reports where the controller was of no help and/or played a part in setting up the accident. In this instance I feel that the radar controller did no wrong and was aware enough to recognize that the pilot did not have the flick and broke off the approach. One thing all pilots need to understand that not all controllers are pilots. In fact, very few are and have no idea of what is going on in the cockpit. At busy radar facilities like where I worked, KSDF, most of our traffic was big, heavy jumbo jets. They can take a lot more weather than me in my little C172 but to a controller with no flight experience, all aircraft are a target on the screen. We get no specialized training about GA airplanes and how they are affected except that ice is bad. We get no training on how a specific system failure can affect your aircraft. The controller did try to help him out when he cleared the aircraft for the approach, but it soon became obvious that he was not prepared. It would be interesting to hear the recording of initial contact and see what he was told to expect for an approach. Controllers can have a bad day too and could have told him to expect the 17R approach but if he said "expect vectors for the RNAV 35L", the pilot was the one confused. I make a habit of listening up to all radio chatter in the approach airspace. It has avoided some issues. If for example the controller did tell him to expect the south runway and then heard everyone else told to expect the north runway, that would raise a red flag for me and prompt an early inquiry. You mentioned that the controller should have cleared him to the IAF for the RNAV approach. The two main reasons that I would think that didn't happen is that controllers almost always advertise the ILS if there is one to the main airport. I've issued thousands of ILS clearances and even though I've been retired six years can still issue one in my sleep. The natural tendecy is to vector to the final approach course. Addionally, to your main airport that has a lot of other traffic inbound to the same runway, vectoring to the final is a way to control the final instead of just watching the target and hoping he does the procedure correct. There was a huge overtake by the SWA aircraft that the controller had to take into consideration and you know it's only going to get worse inside the FAF where the C210 would start slowing. Personally, as a controller and pilot, I liked to issue and receive RNAV approaches to the IAF where possible, but could hardly ever issue them to our main airport where we always had a sequence going on. In closing I wanted to say what I repeatedly preach at the IMC Club meetings here in Louisville that I host: 1. Accept all of the help that ATC can provide but don't let them fly your airplane. You are the PIC, not them. 2. Don't assume that ATC knows what your problem is or what you need to do to fix it. Tell them, in plain English what you need. 3. Never be afraid to declare an emergency. Once you declare an emergency, I guarantee that you will have their undivided attention. There is no one keeping score and no paperwork involved for you. The controller will most likely want you to give them a call when you get on the ground, but that is to make sure that you are all right and get enough information for ATC to do their reports. 4. If you are unsure about what is expected of you or don't understand a command or clearance, don't try to fake it, ask again. You may get a sigh on the mike but that is better than being another NTSB statistic.
Thumbs up for using "affected" properly. Sorry, I'm "that guy" :-/ Also, I used to fly Skyview One years ago. Had a complete electrical failure and ended up safely putting it down at LOU. Always enjoyed operating through the SDF airspace even if I was that annoying gnat getting in everybody's way. -- And this, "Additonally, to your main airport that has a lot of other traffic inbound to the same runway, vectoring to the final is a way to control the final instead of just watching the target and hoping he does the procedure correct." That clarifies something I had often wondered. Going into TEB, we are frequently given direct UNVIL then broken off with a heading to intercept, altitude, and followed by the clearance. I've often wondered why not just leave us on the path to UNVIL because the aircraft will turn and intercept the inbound course on its own. I can definitely see from the controller's point of view that in congested airspace it's better to have assurance that the aircraft has turned inbound rather than hope that it will.
@@aafjeyakubu5124 Too bad a bunch of traffic cameras put you guys out of business. Some of the controllers complained about the traffic survey guys but I never had a problem. You guys always saw the traffic and stayed out of the way. I feel it would be a different story now that most airlines have to respond to RAs and with the traffic guys in that close, I'm sure there would be a lot of them.
@@cscinc can't blame the ATC. Pilot needs to be confident in the knowledge of their aircraft and conditions. No two ways about it. Your the one flying the plane.
One other teachable point not mentioned, is that the centurion slowed to final approach speed and he did so early. If you're in icing, especially when you have an 11,000ft runway, KEEP YOUR SPEED UP! Procedure for my aircraft if we have a boot failure in icing is flying an airspeed a full 50kts faster than our normal final approach speed! If your wings are contaminated and your plane is getting heavy, high airspeeds are your best friend because the stall angle of attack is decreasing rapidly and the speeds requires to maintain it are going to rise as well.
Thank you, was wondering why not just fly faster until the thresh hold of the runway, then go ahead and stall as you touch down. IDK probably easier said than done...
@@marinebean420 he probably fell back to his training, and being Texas, icing is a rare thing. I did my training in Texas and only ever dealt with an icing day once. Thankfully we stressed icing even though we never dealt with it, but if you're not fresh out of school, it's easy to just do what you always do and slow down early out of habit when you're overwhelmed or stressed.
Matthew I was gonna ask the same question! I’m not a pilot but with that long of a runway I would think it would be better to haul ass and lose speed right above the runway.
@@matthewjohnson2428 Based on the fact that he crashed shortly after it could very well be that he was so iced up at that point the aircraft just slowed down on its own and he couldnt go any faster.
Juan, You are so correct! It was obvious the pilot was confused from the beginning, expecting a different approach. As soon as the controller knew this he should have “given him a ride” on a stable heading and altitude so the pilot could collect his thoughts. To just “slap” an approach clearance on the pilot different than what was expected is unacceptable. A small aircraft in IMC single piloted must be handled with GREAT care. I am retired with 30 years high level FAA approach experience. Controllers should ALWAYS be aware of the bases and tops as well as the freezing level. Then you can base your control actions on keeping aircraft out of adverse conditions as much as possible.
How do you know what approach was on the ATIS or what approach he was told to expect ? none of the headings or altitude looked unstable to me , you sure your not one of those VATSIM controllers????????????????????
@@ogc90 you don’t know. But by his reaction already deep into the approach it really doesn’t matter what ATIS or expected approach was. He was thinking he was going in from a completely different direction and wasn’t ready for it. In his situation he should have been broke off the approach earlier than he was. He was no where near ready for it.
@@ogc90 yes but he should have bailed him out earlier. Things were happening way to fast for the pilot. Sometimes you need to protect someone from their self
Juan, 30 yr controller and 40 yr pilot chiming in here. I had numerous situations similar to this in my career and can't stress enough to other pilots: DECLARE THE EMERGENCY !!! It gets everyone quickly on the same page and gets the pilot a formidable team on his side. If this had resulted in a happy ending, it might have ended at the supervisor's desk or at the very worst with a not-so-pleasant call to the FAA. Either way, a far more pleasant outcome than this one had. I was taught as a pilot (and transferred this wisdom to my ATC career) that almost every accident has a chain of at least 3 things that have to go wrong. Most pilots can deal with 1, really good pilots can handle 2, but the addition of a 3rd thing going wrong or sideways is where they turn lethal. This pilot's probable unfamiliarity with the aircraft would count as 1; his unawareness of the fast-moving cold front would have been 2; continued flight into known icing would have been 3 and getting really close to the airport expecting the wrong approach would have been 4. Not sure at what point he got his ATIS information, or whether he got it at all, but something was most definitely wrong here. His fate was most certainly sealed. As others have said, most light aircraft autopilots (especially early ones) with automatic pitch trim will gleefully keep adding trim until they run out of authority, disconnect and leave you with the yoke in your lap and no options left. Also, there are fewer and fewer controllers around these days who are pilots. If this had been me on the ground, hearing his voice, questioning the approach and hearing him say he was in freezing rain, I would have immediately asked if he had de-icing capability. If he said no, I would have declared the emergency for him and done everything I could to get him safely on the ground ASAP. Pilots need to forget the "Nasty old FAA" of the past and learn to view declaring an emergency as a tool to keep in their flying toolbox. This goes doubly so for non-professional, GA pilots flying in single-pilot, hard IMC conditions. The people on the ground are there to help. Let them.
As a former Centurion flyer, I just can only underline what you and some of your subscribers noted and recommended. Icing in a single or light twin is an absolute emergency and approach speed needs to be select higher to even high! This video of yours hopefully contributes to safe many lives. Thank you for creating this highly educational site and also a thank you to all your subscribers contributing with their comments about their own hands on experience, this is a great help for new pilots to survive the challenges of flying. To this day I’m heavily bonded to the Centurion being my beloved workhorse for many years, always returning me and passengers home safely despite the often adverse flying conditions up here in northern Canada.
Unfortunate outcome. I really like how you interject with the VAS clip by stopping and explaining things. As well done as I’ve yet seen. Very informative to say the least. Sorry the pilot was lost. Thanks Juan.
Pilot 50 years!!You guys do a wonderful job and it’s really so simple!Icing conditions?NO GO In my single!Many times I have turned around 180 and took upset passengers home safe though and never thought twice!Keep up the great work you guys do!!
Juan; to watch this report today of ALL days...it was 26 years ago today that those of us at American Eagle (Simmons) Airlines lost not only 4 friends and work mates, but 64 passengers as well 😢. Was flying as FO on ATR out of O’Hare that evening as well. To this day that was some of the worst weather I’ve ever flown in. We, as an industry,learned more about ice and icing conditions from the research conducted following that accident than I think we had up to that point in aviation history. From it has come the de-icing/anti-icing procedures we have in the Part 121 industry (Not all at once mind you, but through evolution.). Freezing liquid precip. Is absolutely THE MOST HAZARDOUS icing you can possibly encounter! To listen to the audio of this accident...😣. Sooo many errors here. And as you pointed out; not just by the pilot. To every GA pilot out there; severe ice is NOT something you want to experience. Boots are worthless in it...hot wings...better, but no guarantee. I “shut down” Epply airfield in Omaha, NE one evening by reporting severe ice on final and nil braking action on the runway. Guess what; management at Epply sent a letter of complaint about me to my CPO. Was asked for a return letter of explanation. My bottom line in it stated that the FAA requires me to report such conditions. And, that I would do so again regardless of what ground operations personnel want said if I again encounter such conditions. Safety first. Sorry if this seems to all like I’m rambling...but severe icing is just one of my pet peeves. Don’t mess with these kind of conditions...your job...YOUR JOB, is to get you and your passengers to the destination safely...NOT get delivered there in a wooden box. This one breaks my heart. My prayers go to the family and loved ones of this lost aviator.
I remember the ATR crash (I live in Indy, several of the passengers were from Indy). Didn’t they determine that the design of the ATR (72, I believe) was very poor for icing conditions?
@@kevino.7348 Simply put, yes. And I remember the French pilot who did the flight characteristics testing being in our winter ops prep class the following year. I’ll just say that after comments he made to us...instructor told us to take a 10 minute break...when we returned, he was absent from the room.
Giving a shit, and trying to make your point clear to others is not rambling. Its reinforcing your stance, in hopes that others understand just how important it is. Its easy to say to your boss well I had the numbers after an accident. Its a whole different situation to be saying that to a bunch of peoples families that have just lost people. Cause you didn't trust the training and your instincts.
Spot on CA Lowers. I had the pleasure of being your FO a few months ago. We talked about that ATR flight. Sad outcome. As is this very avoidable GA “accident”. Hope to fly with you again in a couple years. The furlough ate me.
I remember that crash also. I worked in maintenance in the tire and battery shop at ORD then. Then we got Saab's. I remember one Saab skidding around in front of the maint hangar on ice trying to stop. 20yrs there then 10yrs in stores. Just retired 2yrs ago.
I wish Juan would do more stuff like this. Texas is notorious for freezing rain. Yankees like to make fun of them for not knowing how to drive in snow but it’s not snow, it’s a layer of ice below.
If there is one lesson I learned in instrument training, it’s stay out of icing conditions in GA aircraft. Many years ago, I was on a flight in a Cessna 176 from Atlantic City to HFD in late winter. Ceilings had been dropping steadily and with reports of icing, I maintained clear of clouds. Ended up direct JFK at 2500 to stay out of the ice. NY approach diverted several commercial flights so I could stay safe. The controllers seemed to recognize my situation and were very accommodating. They got me through the class B space efficiently and safely.
@@takingthescenicroute1610 You are cleared to the ramp via taxiway alpha. Maintain wheels on the ground. Departure frequency will be ground. No need to squawk anything.
The terror in this pilot's voice is just heart-breaking. His voice is wavering, sounds like he's almost crying toward the end. So hard to watch, but so important to learn from.
@4:30 - There is nothing more important than having seasoned veterans in your group. Most things we see and experience are not generally new but are part of the institutional knowledge (preserved in the experiences of long-term veterans). Thanks for keeping institutional knowledge alive for the general population.
Juan, if you can save one pilot from this tragedy it is not a total loss. A hobby we all love and yet can turn deadly fast. Condolences to the pilots family, this video was hard for you to make but professionally done as always.
Thank you for talking us through this. You likely saved a life at some point in the future, be it someone potentially facing situation, or someone teaching another about this potential situation. Well done.
Juan, the only time I ever diverted for weather in the C-5 was going into Altus after an air refueling sortie. LTS was calling freezing rain, and we were PROHIBITED from flying in freezing rain in the C-5. We diverted to Carswell AFB, had dinner and flew back to Altus several hours later, safely. Good video analysis. John, ATP/CFII SMEL
Wow! Not a pilot myself, but an enthusiast, and big fan of all aspects of this channels content... Although I have viewed many of Mr. Browne's recaps of failed flights, this one somehow brought tears to my 57yrs young eyes early in the review. You could sense the tension in the air, in the pilots voice, on the first radio transmission we hear... and with Juan's "usual" excellent & accurate narration of the courses of action that should have been taken, and each new insight as to what was really happening up there, it was just about all I could take. Juan it has already been noted in the comments of this video, regarding your excellent work, but I will say it again, you make this information very interesting, in many aspects... stopping to explain a particular point, your at times animation in explaining a point, your conviction in your explanation of a point, your empathy & sympathy comes out when being critical of an action taken or not taken by a fellow pilot who has perished as a result of those action(s) or in actions, but not to be insulting or to "pile on" or adding "salt to the wound" sort of way... Ahh, but I am by now rambling on, and will shut up. Thank you sir. Peace be with this pilot.
Also not a pilot, but been watching for a couple of years for the informative content. Your words echo my own thoughts Gregg, this video is some of Juan's best work.
Once again - so much understandable information in your conversation, Juan (for us non-aviation types). The number of variables that have to be acknowledged and responded to by both crew and ATC is hard to comprehend. Thank you again for your teaching and reporting.
I'm not a pilot. I follow aviation accident reports for lessons learned that are applicable to outdoor recreation situations (and there are many applicable lessons). Thank you for your excellent analytical work and for the contribution that you make to safety. Five Stars, well earned.
There was an ice storm forecast here back in 2013. One of my work colleagues told me that she was taking her daughter to the airport to fly to KBOS from KOGS. I suggested that she not go to the airport the flight would not be happening. On Monday she was complaining about having to drive her daughter to Boston in an ice storm. Don't mess with freezing rain or drizzle no matter whether you are icing approved or not.
JUAN, you are the bomb! My father was killed in his Mooney in 1982 getting out of Finger Lakes in November. Never gained altitude. Accident was listed as pilot error. He had only 69 IFR hours, and, he was an auto and airplane mechanic. Bad timing. Im sure it was ice..... I have learned so much from watching you . Even a lay person can understand.
@@sarahalbers5555 Hi Sarah, thank you.... its been a long time and I've never had answers.. icing made the most sense... I feel that flying is something that people need to be committed to... a lot of part time pilots get airplanes for other reasons.... its a skill that requires continuous work.....its not for part time... my heart breaks when I listen to this pilot. He was too afraid and overwhelmed to ask for help... If the mooney made you nervous, it must have been for a reason. Definitely an airplane that needs a skilled and committed pilot. My girlfriend in Florida is on her 3rd at 80 years old! Very inspiring woman.... take care
@@terriholliday8038 Terri, I think the meteriologist may help you understand what was happening in the atmosphere the day your Dad passed away. I can feel your pain, I can't imagine how you must feel. The Mooney was kind of quirky, different than any other small plane I have ever been in. My stepfather sold Cessnas so it wasn't my first rodeo. BTW, the Mooney pilot flew 747s for a major carrier and I was a flt. att. for 18 yrs. I will keep you in my thoughts and I hope you find some definitive answers.
Hey Juan -- good to hear you are in Dallas. If you get a chance swing by the old Dallas Naval Air Station in Grand Prairie. I believe the runway is still there. In January, 1944, my father crashed his Stearman during flight training taking out the lights in Dallas for three days! And the cause -- wouldn't you know it -- carburetor icing !! He was badly injured but survived. Otherwise I wouldn't be here !
Wow 😳. As a GA pilot with a ME IR in Australia with occasional icing conditions, that was 1 of the most profoundly informative UA-cam videos I have ever watched. We’ve all experienced some icing during flight but to hear the recording of the pilot distress and demise is truly ghastly. You make some excellent points and provide pertinent advice. Keep up the excellent work.
Lubbock texas airport elevation is 3200' the pirep from the other plane indicated freezing up to 2000' agl. Which puts the freezing rain accident aircraft right at 5200'.
I grew up just NE of the outer marker for 17R. Weather there can change on a dime and give 9 cents in change. Poor guy was right at the 2000 ft icing altitude.
I didn't understand the altitude either. From EMUMY to ZOVOC is 10 miles. 5200 is the floor. If there was no freezing above that, I would rather declare the emergency and try to climb. At best 10 miles is at least 3-5 minutes in freezing soup.
@@jvcthd1098 On the ATC audio, did you hear a departing aircraft announce the icing ended at 7000 feet? Wonder if he was trying to throw a hint to the pilot in the Centurian.
I am not a pilot, I certainly haven't taken much more than a introductory lesson. But I am sure I am not the only person out there that appreciates you sharing this information. So much to learn from others mistakes. In the hopes of not letting history repeat itself.
Thanks, Juan! So many mistakes were made to get to this point. In FZDZ, he HAD to make it in on the 1st try, so his last chance was at 11:45 in your video when he asked for vectors. He had to declare an emergency then and get vectors to the runway. He was clearly not set up properly for the approach, so this was the only solution. Once he turned east for the 2nd attempt in freezing precip, it was over. He should have added at least 20 kts to the speed and delayed changing the configuration (gear/flaps) until over the runway. Hearing the Cirrus planning to launch into these conditions is mind boggling!??!!
Thanks for taking the time during your 777 sim training to give this level of analysis. I believe you have helped numerous pilots become aware of the issues experienced by the pilot lost near Lubbock. Ultimately the loss of every pilot, their passengers and their craft affect every aviator. You, sir, always do your best to put these accidents in perspective without assigning blame. We could use way more of these qualities in our national politics. Simulate safely and check-ride with joy! You must be beyond ready to resume your career.
I love your sobriety and professionalism. You deserve that Triple Seven. I went bankrupt with my ppl gave it up at 594 hours. Glad I did as my toehold in Aviation was always threadbare financially. Great incentives to cut corners. Stay rock solid and Godspeed
On the day this happened, we had a Piper Mirage land at KROW that was iced up pretty bad. Even the boots had ice. The parts that had no boots, there was at least a solid inch and a quarter of ice. Luckily, he was able to land safely, because we see what happened to the 210. Could've been a whole 'nother story.
I remember my late Mother-in-Law, as far back as the 1970's, using a similar expression "Slick as snot on a glass doorknob" when trying to grip something really slippery!
All this, and a Cessna 310 went down near Henderson airport the same day (October 30) after departing North Las Vegas Air Terminal nine minutes earlier. The aircraft had lost power in one engine and stalled around 100 ft. AGL trying to make it to Henderson airport after transitioning Class B airspace. Most of the final seconds of flight were caught on video.
You mean, Tom Cruise resembles JB who is the real star. Thanks Jaun for your many, many hours of informative analysis of all things aeronautical...... and a sprinkle of motorbiking.
Really sad, I almost had the same situation flying a Caravan for Fedex in Canada in the early 90's in Winnipeg. Deiced, then departed in light freezing drizzle. Cleared to climb to 8000 feet which would put me on top. The Caravan had full deice boots, but got very close to declaring a pan and returning to the airport. I was down to 120 knots and full power @ 100 ft/m climb rate. Made it on top and it took 2 hrs to be able to get back to the cruising speed of 160 knts. I can still remember it like it was yesterday. Could not imagine doing the same thing in a 210 with no deice.
A non aviator from Hallsville, Tx. Thanks Juan; absolutely amazing watching and listening to this report. An aviator working toward restoring his flight status has time to study other pilot's encounters and is willing to assist with educational information to all involved and touched by this tragedy. So close yet so far that only vigorous training can minimize the senseless loss of a single life.
Freezing rain is dynamite. It can run back on the wing before it freezes and your plane won't fly, it feels like a canoe full of water, so don't feel smug with all your anti-ice equipment. Also, boots or hot wings protect the leading edge, once you configure for landing you have ice on the flaps and ice under the slats that is not helping you fly.
@Dave Roche We flew out of Midway that day about the same time they crashed, the weather was nasty, but we were leaving and climbing quickly, not holding in the crap.
At my present company with that METAR I wouldn’t be allowed to launch. That’s nasty stuff, and I’ve flown into that field in winter and you need to be on your toes. Another good report
Your friend, Dan Millican, on his channel (Taking Off) simply stressed that as soon as the 210 started getting ice he should have declared an emergency and concentrated on climbing out of the icing altitude.
Hell Juan I'm a 64 year old with love of aircraft, the more i watch your video's I'm convinced you have to have the aptitude of a fighter pilot and the awareness of a 25 year old to fly anything......from Perth Australia
Years ago I talked with a Beech test pilot. He was flying from Wichita to N. Colorado. He hit very bad weather and had to land in NW Kansas in a King Air. At touch down, he was at FULL throttle when he landed! There was NO go around! Ice is deadly! Thanks for the video Juan and good luck with the 777 training! Oh and he said the Starship was his favorite plane!
The talk about icing sealing a pilot's fate at the beginning was great. As a pilot in training simple, concise, and simply worded pieces of advice such as this are absolutely invaluable.
Watching this a year later, and 2021 seems to have been even worse. Please take better care of yourselves all who fly, every life is too precious to lose. On an unrelated note, your choice of music is so perfect for your channel, it makes me feel exactly like flying makes me feel..on a higher plane ( no pun intended). But again, please, please take care of yourselves up there.
The 50kts ground speed could have been a result of having a constant throttle position set and not advancing it enough to cope with the increasing drag caused by icing accumulation. Chilling audio. I've had bad icing a few times in my career and the scariest was in a little C406 on a short positioning flight from Norwich to Liverpool (UK). I descended into the cloud (on an ILS), I had a lot of throttle on and the airspeed was still decaying. It was very sticky stuff. The boots were clearing it from the leading edges and the props were shedding it nicely but the front screen was covered. After we taxied in, the aircraft was covered in the stuff.
I've lost two friends in FedEx C-208 Caravans and another co-worker in a Piper T-Tail Lance. The guy in the Lance had no business flying that night and had pushed his limits before. The first Caravan friend's accident was botched by the NTSB. Neither I or his friends believed the final report. The second friend's accident was definetely from icing. If you have pneumatic boots or TKS, it doesn't matter. Neither one will carry you through an icing encounter of more than 1/2 inch of ice without going back to your departure point or descend to a warmer altitude. DECLARE AN EMERGENCY! Good Video
@CaliforniaFly Was the Lance crash in Smithville, TN? Was one of the Caravan crashes near Clarksville, TN ? We might have lived parallel lives at one point.....lol.
@@skyboy1956 I think the Lance crash was near Smithville. I knew that pilot from a previous job at Tac-Air. I was at the Clarksville accident the morning after. I worked with that pilot also at another company. There were about four 208's within about 50 miles of him, including myself, when he went down. Were you flying out of BNA back then?
@@CaliforniaFly I agree nobody believes Humphries' crash was ice related. The NTSB looked at the data in a vacuum, apparently ignoring the big(ger) picture. 2 or 3 BVN pilots were also at Clarksville when the pilot was removed from the wreckage. I didn't know the guy in the Lance but he had an ex-roommate in the MEM feeder mafia I was friends with. I remember when the Lance crash occurred. Bad stuff. I didn't fly out of BNA, I ran opposite direction out of MEM. Flew in W. Tx in the 208 for over a yr including LBB. Not a lot of ice out there but when there was it was wet and nasty.
@@skyboy1956 I was one of the three BVN pilots that got together and drove up to Clarksville that morning from Nashville. Linn LeFever from the BNA FSDO was there looking to see if there was any HazMat around. Humphries was still in the cockpit. We stayed till the owner of Baron showed up and stayed till Steve was removed from the plane. Some local media showed up and I suggested to the other guys that we don't tell those vultures anything and we went back to BNA.
Juan - Thank you for this insightful video. All pilots should head you advice on this, especially those flying single engine, pistons. The pilot in this video should have declared an emergency. He should have flown with at least an extra 20 knots on final to compensate (as best as one can) for carrying the ice. At 11k feet of runway, that was probably 7 times what he needed carrying ice. Controllers need to be more observant too. With FZDZ in the Metar don’t vector a piston around. Get him/her on the ground. This isn’t rocket science. The FAA, their employer, teaches us that in these conditions planes will stop flying pretty quickly. Great work Juan. Don
Love your channel, Juan! However, I think you got the FDZ backwards. It occurs when precip-either rain or melting snow, falls from a warmer altitude to a colder, lower one. This temperature inversion (warmer air above colder air) causes the droplets to super cool and freeze on contact. Here the pilot was at 10c & 5200’-probably close the boundary between the warm layer and the cold layer. Also, another aircraft reported the FDZ dissipating by 7000’. Good luck on your IOE! Fly safe. Jim BOS 737
Excellent presentation. I love your style...just the facts. No emotional desk pounding. I did a 20 year career in the U.S. Air Force and worked Command Post/Air Operations. I remember launching and recovering B-52s and KS-135s in bad weather conditions. It was challenging. Also, I was a crew member on the SAC Airborne Command Post (EC-135C) at Offutt AFB Ne. for 3 1/2 years so I am very familiar with bad weather ops. We always errored on the safe side. Keep up the good work!!!!!!
Juan, that freezing storm came through North Georgia the day before yesterday. Those always cause trees to come down. They often land on houses or trees. And they resulted in 4 deaths here in Georgia. Sorry, as always, for the loss of that pilot.
Thank you for this channel. I took notes on this one. Your comments had more info about icing than any of the instructors I worked with while training for my IFR rating.
Also Juan... first and foremost never be afraid to holler for help when you need it, and the earlier the better. Being slightly embarrassed is highly preferable to being very dead. RIP
I want to thank you for your narrations and your explanations on some of these mishaps. I started flying aircraft at the age of eight years old, flying with my uncle Dwight in a twin-engine piper Comanche with wing tanks I have flown and pretty much every aircraft trauma in the military and in civil aviation. I think my most memorable experience was flying at inverted stall flat spin in a t-38. P-38 to this day is my ultimate favorite aircraft. But thank you for what you do I think your channel is important as well as the the guys that pull up all the Aviation Communications at the website you frequently referred to I watch and listen to those guys all the time and they absolutely do do a remarkable job thanks everybody appreciate it
Great job Juan! Thank you for emphasizing how serious icing conditions are. No matter what our experience level or capability of the aircraft, icing should be avoided. Keep up the great work.
Thank you Juan, for this analysis. I had listened to Victor's upload of this incident, and was waiting for your comments. I knew there would be more to the story here. I could tell right from the start that the pilot of 22T was under a huge amount of stress, and totally unsure of what he should be doing.
I used to teach flying at Dupage Airport (DPA) in the early 90’s, which is located 50 mies west of Chicago. It was a great place to learn, because we would get actual instrument conditions, whereas my colleagues from schools in CA, never saw real IFR. Many great IFR conditions throughout the year. With that said, icing was always an issue at our airport during winter months. Once, I got caught in a wx system in my Cessna 172 that moved in within an hour of my departure. I was fine at 7000 on top of the clouds, but the controller unknowingly lowered me into clouds due to traffic. I should have called an Emergency, as we were now flying in the clouds on the ILS and picking up ice fast. We landed safely, with enough ice for to fill 10 coolers of beers..
When the pilot reads back only 1 parameter out of 6 that the controller gave him, that is a red flag that the pilot is overworked and not fully aware, confused, disoriented.
I had flying lessons and was doing fine but a divorce cut that short.However I learned to quickly respect that actually flying an aircraft was one thing.Finding your way around was massive.No GPS then.You only carry so much fuel and have to land somewhere.Whenever I have flown on a commercial flight I have never doubted the pilots ability to fly but have always hoped they knew where they were going! Respect.
This is a GOOD breakdown.. Its one thing to get behind and feel like you're getting behind the plane and maybe go around and set the app up again - it's another thing when your icing up in the wx and you start feeling THAT pressure to get down too
Just an enthusiast, deskchair pilot, but you got a new subscriber. Extremely interesting stuff and highly competent analysis. This kinda channel is what I bring up when my backwoods uncle asks what good the internet has ever done for anyone.
I see you were in the 62 MAW. I was in the 36 TAS from 1976 to 1982. We used to hear lots of worried pilots talking to Seattle Center while crossing the Cascades during icing season. We flew most of our tactical training in central Wa. around Grant County airport. We rarely had icing issues in the C-130.
Too many pilots have little to no appreciation as to just how fast airframe icing can ruin your day. It is much better to avoid even the temptation to flirt with it.
You are so right. I iced up one day in West Germany in a UH-1H. Started at 9000 in just a minute I was unable to maintain altitude , declared a pan pan pan, should have said mayday. Eventually was able to level off before going below 4000. A flight that I will never forget.
Thanks Juan for doing such a awesome job as always breaking down this incident and proving valuable information for us GA pilots. Learned a lot on this one.
Great video - what a wealth of knowlege and great communication skills. Knowing that autopilots and icing conditions are a bad mix is a golden nugget all by itself
With every millimeter of ice on wings your stall speed increases as it makes the wing more inefficient at generating lift. It now takes more speed to keep the wing flying. Your CG also changes with ice buildup on the tail surfaces. Best is to get the heck out of there and find some clear skies.
Juan Browne provides the best accident dissection on the net. Especially appreciated are his comments/suggestions for how to avoid similar accident scenarios and his willingness to go beyond the bare flight log and pilot/ATC tapes and offer his opinions.
The best way to fly in icing conditions is never. Good intro Juan! If the destination airport has that METAR go somewhere else and land in better conditions. Never push on or press on. Park the airplane change your plans. This is a tragic situation. Always look at the big picture before heading off. What a devastating year in GA accidents 2020 has been.
I agree with Dr. Michaelson. Your tireless explanation of the dangers of icing conditions to aircraft may well save many lives in the future. I would suggest you tube take your humanitarian approach to reporting on aircraft mishaps, regardless of the outcome of the crash you report, as the most important service to your fellow man. What greater lofty aspiration than to help keep aviators flying and not crashing. You tube, please, you know what you should do.
Loved how dramatic the opening was, and I really learned a lot from having you break down the ATC communications and radar positioning. Excellent video. Very well done 👈😎👍
OK, I'm not a pilot and I just randomly came across this video, but DAMN, man, you explained all of that so perfectly and clearly that I understood it every step of the way. What a tragedy.
Juan, Great video, as usual. A couple of thoughts. I am trying to track the flight back to its origin. Just after the pilot was handed over to Lubbock Approach, the controller offered him direct OGHUS (the western IAF) or vectors to final. The pilot asked for vectors to final, which should have been easier for the pilot, as the controller would call out the headings and a 30 degree turn to final would have been easier than a 90 degree turn. According to the recording, the last vector was less than 30 degrees from the inbound course and well outside the approach gate. Also, at one point the controller asked if the pilot remembered the tops, and the pilot said that he had been IMC for awhile. About 20 minutes into the flight he reported light icing at around 10,000. LBB was about half way to his original destination (KCRS). It seems that this flight was in a bad way from the start, and by the time he reached Lubbock Approach, the pilot was way behind things. I agree that he could have made it the first time. Keep the videos coming.
Interesting. Where did you pick up this information? As you said, he was originally destined for Midland but changed his flight plan en route. Do you know if Midland was below mins or had icing also?
@@malcolm20091000 I picked it up from LiveATC.net and Flightaware. LiveATC has ALB Departure, but not KBRG. The pilot had trouble getting his clearance from ALB Departure while airborne. At one point Center wanted him at 12,000, but the flight track shows that he made it only to 11,000. He reported light icing while still talking to ALB departure. I followed him for a frequency change or two, then fast forward. At about 19:58:35 on the LiveATC recording, he contacted Lubbock Approach, and within a minute or so, the controller offered him direct OGHUS or vectors to final. I haven't figured out the frequency for the previous sector or ARTCC, where he changed his destination to Lubbock. Do you happen to know the service ceiling for a 1960 210? I am sure that plane was nothing like today's 210s.
I did some light aircraft flying back in the 1970's. One time I found myself in a snow squall with near zero visibility while on final approach. I was ready for a missed approach/go-around when I reached a decision altitude. Fortunately, I was in that squall for about ten seconds and I did not ice up. Lesson learned - pay more attention to the weather. Another time my motorcycle iced up, completely obscuring my windshield. I was able to look over the top of the windshield. It was July. It was a freak happenstance. It taught me a great deal of respect for local atmospheric conditions.
Juan, another great segment. Do they spend enough time on airframe icing, and or also getting out of it. I too am a usaf Vet, Vietnam era, in-Country. Initially in 101voodo, transitioned to the thud prior to deployment to Danang. 1969. saw many c-141 there. keep up the good work, your hopefully saving lives.
I've commented on this accident over on Dan Millican's Taking Off site but wanted to get this out to as many pilots as possible. Full disclosure, I'm a retired 27-year controller from a busy radar facility and an instrument rated pilot. I've read many NTSB accident reports where the controller was of no help and/or played a part in setting up the accident. In this instance I feel that the radar controller did no wrong and was aware enough to recognize that the pilot did not have the flick and broke off the approach. One thing all pilots need to understand that not all controllers are pilots. In fact, very few are and have no idea of what is going on in the cockpit. At busy radar facilities like where I worked, KSDF, most of our traffic was big, heavy jumbo jets. They can take a lot more weather than me in my little C172 but to a controller with no flight experience, all aircraft are a target on the screen. We get no specialized training about GA airplanes and how they are affected except that ice is bad. We get no training on how a specific system failure can affect your aircraft.
The controller did try to help him out when he cleared the aircraft for the approach, but it soon became obvious that he was not prepared. It would be interesting to hear the recording of initial contact and see what he was told to expect for an approach. Controllers can have a bad day too and could have told him to expect the 17R approach but if he said "expect vectors for the RNAV 35L", the pilot was the one confused. I make a habit of listening up to all radio chatter in the approach airspace. It has avoided some issues. If for example the controller did tell him to expect the south runway and then heard everyone else told to expect the north runway, that would raise a red flag for me and prompt an early inquiry.
You mentioned that the controller should have cleared him to the IAF for the RNAV approach. The two main reasons that I would think that didn't happen is that controllers almost always advertise the ILS if there is one to the main airport. I've issued thousands of ILS clearances and even though I've been retired six years can still issue one in my sleep. The natural tendecy is to vector to the final approach course. Addionally, to your main airport that has a lot of other traffic inbound to the same runway, vectoring to the final is a way to control the final instead of just watching the target and hoping he does the procedure correct. There was a huge overtake by the SWA aircraft that the controller had to take into consideration and you know it's only going to get worse inside the FAF where the C210 would start slowing. Personally, as a controller and pilot, I liked to issue and receive RNAV approaches to the IAF where possible, but could hardly ever issue them to our main airport where we always had a sequence going on.
In closing I wanted to say what I repeatedly preach at the IMC Club meetings here in Louisville that I host:
1. Accept all of the help that ATC can provide but don't let them fly your airplane. You are the PIC, not them.
2. Don't assume that ATC knows what your problem is or what you need to do to fix it. Tell them, in plain English what you need.
3. Never be afraid to declare an emergency. Once you declare an emergency, I guarantee that you will have their undivided attention. There is no one keeping score and no paperwork involved for you. The controller will most likely want you to give them a call when you get on the ground, but that is to make sure that you are all right and get enough information for ATC to do their reports.
4. If you are unsure about what is expected of you or don't understand a command or clearance, don't try to fake it, ask again. You may get a sigh on the mike but that is better than being another NTSB statistic.
Thumbs up for using "affected" properly. Sorry, I'm "that guy" :-/ Also, I used to fly Skyview One years ago. Had a complete electrical failure and ended up safely putting it down at LOU. Always enjoyed operating through the SDF airspace even if I was that annoying gnat getting in everybody's way. -- And this, "Additonally, to your main airport that has a lot of other traffic inbound to the same runway, vectoring to the final is a way to control the final instead of just watching the target and hoping he does the procedure correct." That clarifies something I had often wondered. Going into TEB, we are frequently given direct UNVIL then broken off with a heading to intercept, altitude, and followed by the clearance. I've often wondered why not just leave us on the path to UNVIL because the aircraft will turn and intercept the inbound course on its own. I can definitely see from the controller's point of view that in congested airspace it's better to have assurance that the aircraft has turned inbound rather than hope that it will.
@@aafjeyakubu5124 Too bad a bunch of traffic cameras put you guys out of business. Some of the controllers complained about the traffic survey guys but I never had a problem. You guys always saw the traffic and stayed out of the way. I feel it would be a different story now that most airlines have to respond to RAs and with the traffic guys in that close, I'm sure there would be a lot of them.
pilot,we need to land now,,controler,please go around for 5 more mins please, pilot,,we dont have fuel,,controler,,,crickets..
@@cscinc can't blame the ATC. Pilot needs to be confident in the knowledge of their aircraft and conditions. No two ways about it. Your the one flying the plane.
Glad to hear you're using your vast atc knowledge to share and teach others in the IMC Club. Absolutely invaluable knowledge!
One other teachable point not mentioned, is that the centurion slowed to final approach speed and he did so early. If you're in icing, especially when you have an 11,000ft runway, KEEP YOUR SPEED UP! Procedure for my aircraft if we have a boot failure in icing is flying an airspeed a full 50kts faster than our normal final approach speed! If your wings are contaminated and your plane is getting heavy, high airspeeds are your best friend because the stall angle of attack is decreasing rapidly and the speeds requires to maintain it are going to rise as well.
Thank you, was wondering why not just fly faster until the thresh hold of the runway, then go ahead and stall as you touch down. IDK probably easier said than done...
@@marinebean420 he probably fell back to his training, and being Texas, icing is a rare thing. I did my training in Texas and only ever dealt with an icing day once. Thankfully we stressed icing even though we never dealt with it, but if you're not fresh out of school, it's easy to just do what you always do and slow down early out of habit when you're overwhelmed or stressed.
Good point. Used to fly Dch8 which had +20kt to approach speed in icing and thats a plane with relatively good ice protection system.
Matthew I was gonna ask the same question! I’m not a pilot but with that long of a runway I would think it would be better to haul ass and lose speed right above the runway.
@@matthewjohnson2428 Based on the fact that he crashed shortly after it could very well be that he was so iced up at that point the aircraft just slowed down on its own and he couldnt go any faster.
That whole talk at the start of being in an emergency or sealing your fate was excellent. Thanks for this Juan
Cap. Juan reports are always spot on and he gives us clear ventage info to understand or learn from others
🤗
I noticed that as well. Excellent humble advice.
Juan,
You are so correct! It was obvious the pilot was confused from the beginning, expecting a different approach. As soon as the controller knew this he should have “given him a ride” on a stable heading and altitude so the pilot could collect his thoughts. To just “slap” an approach clearance on the pilot different than what was expected is unacceptable. A small aircraft in IMC single piloted must be handled with GREAT care. I am retired with 30 years high level FAA approach experience. Controllers should ALWAYS be aware of the bases and tops as well as the freezing level. Then you can base your control actions on keeping aircraft out of adverse conditions as much as possible.
It seemed to me like the pilot felt intimidated by air traffic controller, and air traffic controller needed to get his ego in check.....IMO
How do you know what approach was on the ATIS or what approach he was told to expect ? none of the headings or altitude looked unstable to me , you sure your not one of those VATSIM controllers????????????????????
@@ogc90 you don’t know. But by his reaction already deep into the approach it really doesn’t matter what ATIS or expected approach was. He was thinking he was going in from a completely different direction and wasn’t ready for it. In his situation he should have been broke off the approach earlier than he was. He was no where near ready for it.
@@davidmichael5573 Did the controller re vector him for another approach after the pilot requested it yes or no????
@@ogc90 yes but he should have bailed him out earlier. Things were happening way to fast for the pilot. Sometimes you need to protect someone from their self
Juan, 30 yr controller and 40 yr pilot chiming in here. I had numerous situations similar to this in my career and can't stress enough to other pilots: DECLARE THE EMERGENCY !!! It gets everyone quickly on the same page and gets the pilot a formidable team on his side. If this had resulted in a happy ending, it might have ended at the supervisor's desk or at the very worst with a not-so-pleasant call to the FAA. Either way, a far more pleasant outcome than this one had. I was taught as a pilot (and transferred this wisdom to my ATC career) that almost every accident has a chain of at least 3 things that have to go wrong. Most pilots can deal with 1, really good pilots can handle 2, but the addition of a 3rd thing going wrong or sideways is where they turn lethal. This pilot's probable unfamiliarity with the aircraft would count as 1; his unawareness of the fast-moving cold front would have been 2; continued flight into known icing would have been 3 and getting really close to the airport expecting the wrong approach would have been 4. Not sure at what point he got his ATIS information, or whether he got it at all, but something was most definitely wrong here. His fate was most certainly sealed. As others have said, most light aircraft autopilots (especially early ones) with automatic pitch trim will gleefully keep adding trim until they run out of authority, disconnect and leave you with the yoke in your lap and no options left. Also, there are fewer and fewer controllers around these days who are pilots. If this had been me on the ground, hearing his voice, questioning the approach and hearing him say he was in freezing rain, I would have immediately asked if he had de-icing capability. If he said no, I would have declared the emergency for him and done everything I could to get him safely on the ground ASAP. Pilots need to forget the "Nasty old FAA" of the past and learn to view declaring an emergency as a tool to keep in their flying toolbox. This goes doubly so for non-professional, GA pilots flying in single-pilot, hard IMC conditions. The people on the ground are there to help. Let them.
He checked on with the correct ATIS and it advertised RNAV Y 35L. He was offered OHGUS but wanted RV. He was number 1 to the field.
Sir - sounds to me like you are a good air traffic controller !
Not so sure what the future may hold for the atc field ...?
How sad. We get to as close as possible to the situation when we hear the audio tapes. Poor guy. May his soul rest in peace.
Hearing that pilot is heartbreaking
As a former Centurion flyer, I just can only underline what you and some of your subscribers noted and recommended. Icing in a single or light twin is an absolute emergency and approach speed needs to be select higher to even high! This video of yours hopefully contributes to safe many lives. Thank you for creating this highly educational site and also a thank you to all your subscribers contributing with their comments about their own hands on experience, this is a great help for new pilots to survive the challenges of flying.
To this day I’m heavily bonded to the Centurion being my beloved workhorse for many years, always returning me and passengers home safely despite the often adverse flying conditions up here in northern Canada.
Thank you for all the information it's just fascinating to have this broken down for somebody who isn't a pilot. I really appreciate it.
Unfortunate outcome. I really like how you interject with the VAS clip by stopping and explaining things. As well done as I’ve yet seen. Very informative to say the least. Sorry the pilot was lost.
Thanks Juan.
Pilot 50 years!!You guys do a wonderful job and it’s really so simple!Icing conditions?NO GO In my single!Many times I have turned around 180 and took upset passengers home safe though and never thought twice!Keep up the great work you guys do!!
Juan; to watch this report today of ALL days...it was 26 years ago today that those of us at American Eagle (Simmons) Airlines lost not only 4 friends and work mates, but 64 passengers as well 😢. Was flying as FO on ATR out of O’Hare that evening as well. To this day that was some of the worst weather I’ve ever flown in. We, as an industry,learned more about ice and icing conditions from the research conducted following that accident than I think we had up to that point in aviation history. From it has come the de-icing/anti-icing procedures we have in the Part 121 industry (Not all at once mind you, but through evolution.). Freezing liquid precip. Is absolutely THE MOST HAZARDOUS icing you can possibly encounter!
To listen to the audio of this accident...😣. Sooo many errors here. And as you pointed out; not just by the pilot. To every GA pilot out there; severe ice is NOT something you want to experience. Boots are worthless in it...hot wings...better, but no guarantee.
I “shut down” Epply airfield in Omaha, NE one evening by reporting severe ice on final and nil braking action on the runway. Guess what; management at Epply sent a letter of complaint about me to my CPO.
Was asked for a return letter of explanation. My bottom line in it stated that the FAA requires me to report such conditions. And, that I would do so again regardless of what ground operations personnel want said if I again encounter such conditions. Safety first.
Sorry if this seems to all like I’m rambling...but severe icing is just one of my pet peeves. Don’t mess with these kind of conditions...your job...YOUR JOB, is to get you and your passengers to the destination safely...NOT get delivered there in a wooden box.
This one breaks my heart. My prayers go to the family and loved ones of this lost aviator.
I remember the ATR crash (I live in Indy, several of the passengers were from Indy). Didn’t they determine that the design of the ATR (72, I believe) was very poor for icing conditions?
@@kevino.7348 Simply put, yes. And I remember the French pilot who did the flight characteristics testing being in our winter ops prep class the following year. I’ll just say that after comments he made to us...instructor told us to take a 10 minute break...when we returned, he was absent from the room.
Giving a shit, and trying to make your point clear to others is not rambling. Its reinforcing your stance, in hopes that others understand just how important it is. Its easy to say to your boss well I had the numbers after an accident. Its a whole different situation to be saying that to a bunch of peoples families that have just lost people. Cause you didn't trust the training and your instincts.
Spot on CA Lowers. I had the pleasure of being your FO a few months ago. We talked about that ATR flight. Sad outcome. As is this very avoidable GA “accident”. Hope to fly with you again in a couple years. The furlough ate me.
I remember that crash also. I worked in maintenance in the tire and battery shop at ORD then. Then we got Saab's. I remember one Saab skidding around in front of the maint hangar on ice trying to stop. 20yrs there then 10yrs in stores. Just retired 2yrs ago.
I wish Juan would do more stuff like this. Texas is notorious for freezing rain. Yankees like to make fun of them for not knowing how to drive in snow but it’s not snow, it’s a layer of ice below.
I really enjoy your patience in explaining the meaning of a lot of aviation terms for non pilots like me
If there is one lesson I learned in instrument training, it’s stay out of icing conditions in GA aircraft.
Many years ago, I was on a flight in a Cessna 176 from Atlantic City to HFD in late winter. Ceilings had been dropping steadily and with reports of icing, I maintained clear of clouds. Ended up direct JFK at 2500 to stay out of the ice. NY approach diverted several commercial flights so I could stay safe. The controllers seemed to recognize my situation and were very accommodating. They got me through the class B space efficiently and safely.
HFD = Brainard Field or Bradley or P&WA ?
HFD is Brainard field. Bradley international is BDL. Pratt and Whitney no longer has an airfield. It was close about 20 years ago.
That Cirrus N8402Q attempting to takeoff in freezing rain is worth a discussion by itself.
"You're cleared to return to the parking stand. Clearance canceled for take off in freezing drizzle."
@@takingthescenicroute1610 You are cleared to the ramp via taxiway alpha. Maintain wheels on the ground. Departure frequency will be ground. No need to squawk anything.
@@asarangan ...and for even thinking departure would be a good idea in freezing drizzle, here's a number to write down...
I think it would be quite short. Consult Cirrus POH, limitations section, flight in freezing drizzle prohibited, end of discussion.
Rich guy with de-ice. Thinks he's bulletproof.
The terror in this pilot's voice is just heart-breaking. His voice is wavering, sounds like he's almost crying toward the end. So hard to watch, but so important to learn from.
@4:30 - There is nothing more important than having seasoned veterans in your group. Most things we see and experience are not generally new but are part of the institutional knowledge (preserved in the experiences of long-term veterans). Thanks for keeping institutional knowledge alive for the general population.
“Sticks like frozen snot to a glass doorknob.” Is quote I will be hard pressed to ever forget.
Juan, if you can save one pilot from this tragedy it is not a total loss. A hobby we all love and yet can turn deadly fast. Condolences to the pilots family, this video was hard for you to make but professionally done as always.
Thank you for talking us through this. You likely saved a life at some point in the future, be it someone potentially facing situation, or someone teaching another about this potential situation. Well done.
Juan, the only time I ever diverted for weather in the C-5 was going into Altus after an air refueling sortie. LTS was calling freezing rain, and we were PROHIBITED from flying in freezing rain in the C-5. We diverted to Carswell AFB, had dinner and flew back to Altus several hours later, safely. Good video analysis. John, ATP/CFII SMEL
Sweet ... job well done !
Wow!
Not a pilot myself, but an enthusiast, and big fan of all aspects of this channels content... Although I have viewed many of Mr. Browne's recaps of failed flights, this one somehow brought tears to my 57yrs young eyes early in the review.
You could sense the tension in the air, in the pilots voice, on the first radio transmission we hear... and with Juan's "usual" excellent & accurate narration of the courses of action that should have been taken, and each new insight as to what was really happening up there, it was just about all I could take.
Juan it has already been noted in the comments of this video, regarding your excellent work, but I will say it again, you make this information very interesting, in many aspects... stopping to explain a particular point, your at times animation in explaining a point, your conviction in your explanation of a point, your empathy & sympathy comes out when being critical of an action taken or not taken by a fellow pilot who has perished as a result of those action(s) or in actions, but not to be insulting or to "pile on" or adding "salt to the wound" sort of way...
Ahh, but I am by now rambling on, and will shut up.
Thank you sir.
Peace be with this pilot.
Also not a pilot, but been watching for a couple of years for the informative content. Your words echo my own thoughts Gregg, this video is some of Juan's best work.
Very nice comment sir !
Thank you -
Once again - so much understandable information in your conversation, Juan (for us non-aviation types). The number of variables that have to be acknowledged and responded to by both crew and ATC is hard to comprehend. Thank you again for your teaching and reporting.
I'm not a pilot. I follow aviation accident reports for lessons learned that are applicable to outdoor recreation situations (and there are many applicable lessons). Thank you for your excellent analytical work and for the contribution that you make to safety. Five Stars, well earned.
There was an ice storm forecast here back in 2013. One of my work colleagues told me that she was taking her daughter to the airport to fly to KBOS from KOGS. I suggested that she not go to the airport the flight would not be happening. On Monday she was complaining about having to drive her daughter to Boston in an ice storm. Don't mess with freezing rain or drizzle no matter whether you are icing approved or not.
She would have complained more about crashing in an ice storm though.
@@rinzler9775 generally crashing is not good for your health, especially when the flight controls are jammed with ice
JUAN, you are the bomb! My father was killed in his Mooney in 1982 getting out of Finger Lakes in November. Never gained altitude. Accident was listed as pilot error. He had only 69 IFR hours, and, he was an auto and airplane mechanic. Bad timing. Im sure it was ice.....
I have learned so much from watching you . Even a lay person can understand.
So sad, i' m sorry for your loss. My former boyfriend had a Mooney and it always made me nervous.
@@sarahalbers5555 Hi Sarah, thank you.... its been a long time and I've never had answers.. icing made the most sense... I feel that flying is something that people need to be committed to... a lot of part time pilots get airplanes for other reasons.... its a skill that requires continuous work.....its not for part time... my heart breaks when I listen to this pilot. He was too afraid and overwhelmed to ask for help...
If the mooney made you nervous, it must have been for a reason. Definitely an airplane that needs a skilled and committed pilot. My girlfriend in Florida is on her 3rd at 80 years old! Very inspiring woman.... take care
@Terri Holliday Message me the date. I'm a meteorologist and will take a look for you. I think I can get some data that far back.
@@terriholliday8038 Terri, I think the meteriologist may help you understand what was happening in the atmosphere the day your Dad passed away. I can feel your pain, I can't imagine how you must feel. The Mooney was kind of quirky, different than any other small plane I have ever been in. My stepfather sold Cessnas so it wasn't my first rodeo. BTW, the Mooney pilot flew 747s for a major carrier and I was a flt. att. for 18 yrs. I will keep you in my thoughts and I hope you find some definitive answers.
@@fozzywxman Thanks for reaching out to Terri. That was a lovely gesture. Please give us a follow up if possible.
Hey Juan -- good to hear you are in Dallas. If you get a chance swing by the old Dallas Naval Air Station in Grand Prairie. I believe the runway is still there. In January, 1944, my father crashed his Stearman during flight training taking out the lights in Dallas for three days! And the cause -- wouldn't you know it -- carburetor icing !! He was badly injured but survived. Otherwise I wouldn't be here !
Juan, Thank you for explaining the weather data and detail explanation of what the poor pilot was facing at the time.
4:35 what a great-looking crew! You haven't changted much Juan, same great smile.
Wow 😳. As a GA pilot with a ME IR in Australia with occasional icing conditions, that was 1 of the most profoundly informative UA-cam videos I have ever watched. We’ve all experienced some icing during flight but to hear the recording of the pilot distress and demise is truly ghastly. You make some excellent points and provide pertinent advice. Keep up the excellent work.
Lubbock texas airport elevation is 3200' the pirep from the other plane indicated freezing up to 2000' agl. Which puts the freezing rain accident aircraft right at 5200'.
thx - i wondered about that
Flying into IMC is just about as scary a proposition as I can think of.
I grew up just NE of the outer marker for 17R. Weather there can change on a dime and give 9 cents in change. Poor guy was right at the 2000 ft icing altitude.
I didn't understand the altitude either. From EMUMY to ZOVOC is 10 miles. 5200 is the floor. If there was no freezing above that, I would rather declare the emergency and try to climb. At best 10 miles is at least 3-5 minutes in freezing soup.
@@jvcthd1098 On the ATC audio, did you hear a departing aircraft announce the icing ended at 7000 feet? Wonder if he was trying to throw a hint to the pilot in the Centurian.
Excellent review of another tragic accident. If I was still flight instructing, I would encourage all my students to watch Juan's channel.
I watch the VASA live ATC videos, regularly. You add so much info and knowledge, Juan.
VASA and Blancolirio are both great aero channels.
Things happen so fast up there. You can’t get behind. A qualified or competent copilot is invaluable.
I am not a pilot, I certainly haven't taken much more than a introductory lesson. But I am sure I am not the only person out there that appreciates you sharing this information. So much to learn from others mistakes. In the hopes of not letting history repeat itself.
Thanks, Juan!
So many mistakes were made to get to this point.
In FZDZ, he HAD to make it in on the 1st try, so his last chance was at 11:45 in your video when he asked for vectors. He had to declare an emergency then and get vectors to the runway. He was clearly not set up properly for the approach, so this was the only solution. Once he turned east for the 2nd attempt in freezing precip, it was over.
He should have added at least 20 kts to the speed and delayed changing the configuration (gear/flaps) until over the runway.
Hearing the Cirrus planning to launch into these conditions is mind boggling!??!!
Thanks for taking the time during your 777 sim training to give this level of analysis. I believe you have helped numerous pilots become aware of the issues experienced by the pilot lost near Lubbock. Ultimately the loss of every pilot, their passengers and their craft affect every aviator. You, sir, always do your best to put these accidents in perspective without assigning blame. We could use way more of these qualities in our national politics. Simulate safely and check-ride with joy! You must be beyond ready to resume your career.
I love your sobriety and professionalism. You deserve that Triple Seven. I went bankrupt with my ppl gave it up at 594 hours. Glad I did as my toehold in Aviation was always threadbare financially. Great incentives to cut corners. Stay rock solid and Godspeed
Great job Juan. As a former approach controller who got to work many aircraft in these kind of conditions, your assessments were all right on.
On the day this happened, we had a Piper Mirage land at KROW that was iced up pretty bad. Even the boots had ice. The parts that had no boots, there was at least a solid inch and a quarter of ice.
Luckily, he was able to land safely, because we see what happened to the 210. Could've been a whole 'nother story.
I guess I've never heard of frozen snot on a doorknob but I guess that got my attention Almost as much as freezing rain conditions in flying.
I remember my late Mother-in-Law, as far back as the 1970's, using a similar expression "Slick as snot on a glass doorknob" when trying to grip something really slippery!
I just not heard of this before it's a good 1 I'll remember it
@Peter Mortensen Ha ha ha!
@Peter Mortensen Ha ha ha!
@Peter Mortensen time was LOTS OF DOOR KNOBS WERE GLASS 🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸
All this, and a Cessna 310 went down near Henderson airport the same day (October 30) after departing North Las Vegas Air Terminal nine minutes earlier. The aircraft had lost power in one engine and stalled around 100 ft. AGL trying to make it to Henderson airport after transitioning Class B airspace. Most of the final seconds of flight were caught on video.
JB failed to tell us he resembled tom cruise back in his AF days.
Yes. I’ve spoken to him about this previously.
You mean, Tom Cruise resembles JB who is the real star. Thanks Jaun for your many, many hours of informative analysis of all things aeronautical...... and a sprinkle of motorbiking.
And he told the girls he got paid like Tom Cruise too!
Well they both “Feel the need!”
@@c7042 You mean you resembled a goose? Sorry couldn't resist.
That tone we heard was a low altitude alert. I’d bet on the 210. Especially if he was icing up
Really sad, I almost had the same situation flying a Caravan for Fedex in Canada in the early 90's in Winnipeg. Deiced, then departed in light freezing drizzle. Cleared to climb to 8000 feet which would put me on top. The Caravan had full deice boots, but got very close to declaring a pan and returning to the airport. I was down to 120 knots and full power @ 100 ft/m climb rate. Made it on top and it took 2 hrs to be able to get back to the cruising speed of 160 knts. I can still remember it like it was yesterday. Could not imagine doing the same thing in a 210 with no deice.
A non aviator from Hallsville, Tx. Thanks Juan; absolutely amazing watching and listening to this report. An aviator working toward restoring his flight status has time to study other pilot's encounters and is willing to assist with educational information to all involved and touched by this tragedy. So close yet so far that only vigorous training can minimize the senseless loss of a single life.
VERY GOOD ADVICE FROM A WELL SEASONED AND VERY KNOWLEDGEABLE PILOT !!!!!!!!!! tx Juan !!!! Hope it saves some lives
Freezing rain is dynamite. It can run back on the wing before it freezes and your plane won't fly, it feels like a canoe full of water, so don't feel smug with all your anti-ice equipment. Also, boots or hot wings protect the leading edge, once you configure for landing you have ice on the flaps and ice under the slats that is not helping you fly.
@Dave Roche We flew out of Midway that day about the same time they crashed, the weather was nasty, but we were leaving and climbing quickly, not holding in the crap.
I was on Okinawa & Vietnam 1968-69, I can remember the C-141 Starlifters on the ramp at Kadena AFB.
So sad to see. Hindsight. I'm gobsmacked the Cirrus pilot wanted to go up. Scary. Good info Juan.
At my present company with that METAR I wouldn’t be allowed to launch. That’s nasty stuff, and I’ve flown into that field in winter and you need to be on your toes. Another good report
Your friend, Dan Millican, on his channel (Taking Off) simply stressed that as soon as the 210 started getting ice he should have declared an emergency and concentrated on climbing out of the icing altitude.
@@openphoto We don't know that to a certainty. Pilots, like all humans, make mistakes. We should learn from them.
@@openphoto It is a very rattling experience to fly into ice... especially heavy clear ice.
Once you get a heavy load of ice, it might not be possible to climb out of it unless you act quickly.
@@MrZrryan2 It appears to have been rime ice.
Hell Juan I'm a 64 year old with love of aircraft, the more i watch your video's I'm convinced you have to have the aptitude of a fighter pilot and the awareness of a 25 year old to fly anything......from Perth Australia
Years ago I talked with a Beech test pilot. He was flying from Wichita to N. Colorado. He hit very bad weather and had to land in NW Kansas in a King Air. At touch down, he was at FULL throttle when he landed! There was NO go around! Ice is deadly! Thanks for the video Juan and good luck with the 777 training! Oh and he said the Starship was his favorite plane!
The talk about icing sealing a pilot's fate at the beginning was great. As a pilot in training simple, concise, and simply worded pieces of advice such as this are absolutely invaluable.
Watching this a year later, and 2021 seems to have been even worse. Please take better care of yourselves all who fly, every life is too precious to lose. On an unrelated note, your choice of music is so perfect for your channel, it makes me feel exactly like flying makes me feel..on a higher plane ( no pun intended). But again, please, please take care of yourselves up there.
The 50kts ground speed could have been a result of having a constant throttle position set and not advancing it enough to cope with the increasing drag caused by icing accumulation.
Chilling audio. I've had bad icing a few times in my career and the scariest was in a little C406 on a short positioning flight from Norwich to Liverpool (UK). I descended into the cloud (on an ILS), I had a lot of throttle on and the airspeed was still decaying. It was very sticky stuff. The boots were clearing it from the leading edges and the props were shedding it nicely but the front screen was covered. After we taxied in, the aircraft was covered in the stuff.
Ive been close to two fatal icing tragedies. One Air carrier and one military. Listen to Juan !!!! Good stuff !!!
The intro music. Haunting and beautifully done. Good work!
I've lost two friends in FedEx C-208 Caravans and another co-worker in a Piper T-Tail Lance. The guy in the Lance had no business flying that night and had pushed his limits before. The first Caravan friend's accident was botched by the NTSB. Neither I or his friends believed the final report. The second friend's accident was definetely from icing. If you have pneumatic boots or TKS, it doesn't matter. Neither one will carry you through an icing encounter of more than 1/2 inch of ice without going back to your departure point or descend to a warmer altitude. DECLARE AN EMERGENCY!
Good Video
@CaliforniaFly Was the Lance crash in Smithville, TN? Was one of the Caravan crashes near Clarksville, TN ? We might have lived parallel lives at one point.....lol.
@@skyboy1956 I think the Lance crash was near Smithville. I knew that pilot from a previous job at Tac-Air. I was at the Clarksville accident the morning after. I worked with that pilot also at another company. There were about four 208's within about 50 miles of him, including myself, when he went down. Were you flying out of BNA back then?
@@CaliforniaFly I agree nobody believes Humphries' crash was ice related. The NTSB looked at the data in a vacuum, apparently ignoring the big(ger) picture. 2 or 3 BVN pilots were also at Clarksville when the pilot was removed from the wreckage. I didn't know the guy in the Lance but he had an ex-roommate in the MEM feeder mafia I was friends with. I remember when the Lance crash occurred. Bad stuff. I didn't fly out of BNA, I ran opposite direction out of MEM. Flew in W. Tx in the 208 for over a yr including LBB. Not a lot of ice out there but when there was it was wet and nasty.
@@skyboy1956 I was one of the three BVN pilots that got together and drove up to Clarksville that morning from Nashville. Linn LeFever from the BNA FSDO was there looking to see if there was any HazMat around. Humphries was still in the cockpit. We stayed till the owner of Baron showed up and stayed till Steve was removed from the plane. Some local media showed up and I suggested to the other guys that we don't tell those vultures anything and we went back to BNA.
youtube's algorithm pointed me to this channel and honestly i love the clarity and passion you put into these videos. Wonderful work.
Juan - Thank you for this insightful video. All pilots should head you advice on this, especially those flying single engine, pistons. The pilot in this video should have declared an emergency. He should have flown with at least an extra 20 knots on final to compensate (as best as one can) for carrying the ice. At 11k feet of runway, that was probably 7 times what he needed carrying ice. Controllers need to be more observant too. With FZDZ in the Metar don’t vector a piston around. Get him/her on the ground. This isn’t rocket science. The FAA, their employer, teaches us that in these conditions planes will stop flying pretty quickly. Great work Juan. Don
Love your channel, Juan! However, I think you got the FDZ backwards. It occurs when precip-either rain or melting snow, falls from a warmer altitude to a colder, lower one. This temperature inversion (warmer air above colder air) causes the droplets to super cool and freeze on contact.
Here the pilot was at 10c & 5200’-probably close the boundary between the warm layer and the cold layer.
Also, another aircraft reported the FDZ dissipating by 7000’.
Good luck on your IOE! Fly safe.
Jim BOS 737
Excellent presentation. I love your style...just the facts. No emotional desk pounding. I did a 20 year career in the U.S. Air Force and worked Command Post/Air Operations. I remember launching and recovering B-52s and KS-135s in bad weather conditions. It was challenging. Also, I was a crew member on the SAC Airborne Command Post (EC-135C) at Offutt AFB Ne. for 3 1/2 years so I am very familiar with bad weather ops. We always errored on the safe side. Keep up the good work!!!!!!
Juan, that freezing storm came through North Georgia the day before yesterday. Those always cause trees to come down. They often land on houses or trees. And they resulted in 4 deaths here in Georgia.
Sorry, as always, for the loss of that pilot.
Happened to me here in Birmingham. It was quite a storm!
Thank you for this channel. I took notes on this one. Your comments had more info about icing than any of the instructors I worked with while training for my IFR rating.
Also Juan... first and foremost never be afraid to holler for help when you need it, and the earlier the better.
Being slightly embarrassed is highly preferable to being very dead.
RIP
I want to thank you for your narrations and your explanations on some of these mishaps. I started flying aircraft at the age of eight years old, flying with my uncle Dwight in a twin-engine piper Comanche with wing tanks I have flown and pretty much every aircraft trauma in the military and in civil aviation. I think my most memorable experience was flying at inverted stall flat spin in a t-38. P-38 to this day is my ultimate favorite aircraft. But thank you for what you do I think your channel is important as well as the the guys that pull up all the Aviation Communications at the website you frequently referred to I watch and listen to those guys all the time and they absolutely do do a remarkable job thanks everybody appreciate it
Great job Juan!
Thank you for emphasizing how serious icing conditions are.
No matter what our experience level or capability of the aircraft, icing should be avoided.
Keep up the great work.
Thank you Juan, for this analysis. I had listened to Victor's upload of this incident, and was waiting for your comments. I knew there would be more to the story here.
I could tell right from the start that the pilot of 22T was under a huge amount of stress, and totally unsure of what he should be doing.
The poor guy and he was on his own.
ATC was not helping this guy. However, he should have declared an emergency to get priority assistance.
I used to teach flying at Dupage Airport (DPA) in the early 90’s, which is located 50 mies west of Chicago. It was a great place to learn, because we would get actual instrument conditions, whereas my colleagues from schools in CA, never saw real IFR. Many great IFR conditions throughout the year. With that said, icing was always an issue at our airport during winter months. Once, I got caught in a wx system in my Cessna 172 that moved in within an hour of my departure. I was fine at 7000 on top of the clouds, but the controller unknowingly lowered me into clouds due to traffic. I should have called an Emergency, as we were now flying in the clouds on the ILS and picking up ice fast. We landed safely, with enough ice for to fill 10 coolers of beers..
One of your very best narrations. Enumerating things we pilots MUST do in hazardous conditions such as this poor pilot had. Thank you!
62nd AW McChord. My dad flew the 1st C-141A to McChord from Lockheed in 1965.
When the pilot reads back only 1 parameter out of 6 that the controller gave him, that is a red flag that the pilot is overworked and not fully aware, confused, disoriented.
It's hard to overstate the effects panic can have on peoples ability to think.
I had flying lessons and was doing fine but a divorce cut that short.However I learned to quickly respect that actually flying an aircraft was one thing.Finding your way around was massive.No GPS then.You only carry so much fuel and have to land somewhere.Whenever I have flown on a commercial flight I have never doubted the pilots ability to fly but have always hoped they knew where they were going! Respect.
This is a GOOD breakdown.. Its one thing to get behind and feel like you're getting behind the plane and maybe go around and set the app up again - it's another thing when your icing up in the wx and you start feeling THAT pressure to get down too
Oh Man! A lifetime of experience in just one video. We all want to live to fly another day. Thank you!
Just an enthusiast, deskchair pilot, but you got a new subscriber. Extremely interesting stuff and highly competent analysis. This kinda channel is what I bring up when my backwoods uncle asks what good the internet has ever done for anyone.
I used to fly cargo in Texas- Aerostars and CE-401s and 402s- Freezing precip is one of those things that makes my butt pucker
I see you were in the 62 MAW. I was in the 36 TAS from 1976 to 1982. We used to hear lots of worried pilots talking to Seattle Center while crossing the Cascades during icing season. We flew most of our tactical training in central Wa. around Grant County airport. We rarely had icing issues in the C-130.
Too many pilots have little to no appreciation as to just how fast airframe icing can ruin your day. It is much better to avoid even the temptation to flirt with it.
You are so right. I iced up one day in West Germany in a UH-1H. Started at 9000 in just a minute I was unable to maintain altitude , declared a pan pan pan, should have said mayday. Eventually was able to level off before going below 4000. A flight that I will never forget.
Great explanation Juan, great teaching the do's and dont's of flying in bad weather. Riveting re-cap!
Thanks Juan for doing such a awesome job as always breaking down this incident and proving valuable information for us GA pilots. Learned a lot on this one.
Be sure to thank Juan too!
Lol typo, all fixed. Joan 😀
Great video - what a wealth of knowlege and great communication skills. Knowing that autopilots and icing conditions are a bad mix is a golden nugget all by itself
With every millimeter of ice on wings your stall speed increases as it makes the wing more inefficient at generating lift. It now takes more speed to keep the wing flying. Your CG also changes with ice buildup on the tail surfaces. Best is to get the heck out of there and find some clear skies.
Juan Browne provides the best accident dissection on the net. Especially appreciated are his comments/suggestions for how to avoid similar accident scenarios and his willingness to go beyond the bare flight log and pilot/ATC tapes and offer his opinions.
So sad, and again so avoidable! Senseless loss of someone's father, brother, son.....
The best way to fly in icing conditions is never. Good intro Juan! If the destination airport has that METAR go somewhere else and land in better conditions. Never push on or press on. Park the airplane change your plans. This is a tragic situation. Always look at the big picture before heading off. What a devastating year in GA accidents 2020 has been.
I agree with Dr. Michaelson. Your tireless explanation of the dangers of icing conditions to aircraft may well save many lives in the future. I would suggest you tube take your humanitarian approach to reporting on aircraft mishaps, regardless of the outcome of the crash you report, as the most important service to your fellow man. What greater lofty aspiration than to help keep aviators flying and not crashing. You tube, please, you know what you should do.
Loved how dramatic the opening was, and I really learned a lot from having you break down the ATC communications and radar positioning. Excellent video. Very well done 👈😎👍
Superb episode Juan. I felt like I was in the aircraft with the pilot and learned a lot from your analysis. My sincere condolences to his family.
Thank you so much for explaining all this so all us non pilots can understand what's going on. Sad that most accidents could be avoided. Thanks again.
OK, I'm not a pilot and I just randomly came across this video, but DAMN, man, you explained all of that so perfectly and clearly that I understood it every step of the way. What a tragedy.
Juan, Great video, as usual. A couple of thoughts. I am trying to track the flight back to its origin. Just after the pilot was handed over to Lubbock Approach, the controller offered him direct OGHUS (the western IAF) or vectors to final. The pilot asked for vectors to final, which should have been easier for the pilot, as the controller would call out the headings and a 30 degree turn to final would have been easier than a 90 degree turn. According to the recording, the last vector was less than 30 degrees from the inbound course and well outside the approach gate. Also, at one point the controller asked if the pilot remembered the tops, and the pilot said that he had been IMC for awhile. About 20 minutes into the flight he reported light icing at around 10,000. LBB was about half way to his original destination (KCRS). It seems that this flight was in a bad way from the start, and by the time he reached Lubbock Approach, the pilot was way behind things. I agree that he could have made it the first time. Keep the videos coming.
Interesting. Where did you pick up this information? As you said, he was originally destined for Midland but changed his flight plan en route. Do you know if Midland was below mins or had icing also?
@@malcolm20091000 I picked it up from LiveATC.net and Flightaware. LiveATC has ALB Departure, but not KBRG. The pilot had trouble getting his clearance from ALB Departure while airborne. At one point Center wanted him at 12,000, but the flight track shows that he made it only to 11,000. He reported light icing while still talking to ALB departure. I followed him for a frequency change or two, then fast forward. At about 19:58:35 on the LiveATC recording, he contacted Lubbock Approach, and within a minute or so, the controller offered him direct OGHUS or vectors to final. I haven't figured out the frequency for the previous sector or ARTCC, where he changed his destination to Lubbock. Do you happen to know the service ceiling for a 1960 210? I am sure that plane was nothing like today's 210s.
Once again you tell it like it is. Perfect reporting.
I hope all is going well with you.
I did some light aircraft flying back in the 1970's. One time I found myself in a snow squall with near zero visibility while on final approach. I was ready for a missed approach/go-around when I reached a decision altitude. Fortunately, I was in that squall for about ten seconds and I did not ice up. Lesson learned - pay more attention to the weather. Another time my motorcycle iced up, completely obscuring my windshield. I was able to look over the top of the windshield. It was July. It was a freak happenstance. It taught me a great deal of respect for local atmospheric conditions.
Juan, another great segment. Do they spend enough time on airframe icing, and or also getting out of it.
I too am a usaf Vet, Vietnam era, in-Country. Initially in 101voodo, transitioned to the thud prior to deployment to Danang. 1969.
saw many c-141 there. keep up the good work, your hopefully saving lives.