Accident Case Study: Time Lapse - misunderstanding in-cockpit weather displays can lead to tragedy
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- Опубліковано 21 вер 2024
- Link to certificate, WINGS credit, and ASI transcript: bit.ly/ACSTime...
Description: One of the great advances in general aviation in recent years has been the widespread availability of datalink weather. Like any technology, though, it can be used improperly. Come along as we examine a tragic accident that highlights an important and often-overlooked limitation of datalink radar.
To learn more, check out our Thunderstorm Avoidance Safety Center at www.airsafetyinstitute.org/spotlight/thunderstorms.
Please visit the AOPA Foundation at www.aopafoundation.org/donate to learn how you can participate in funding future safety programs by the Air Safety Institute.
Excerpt from video transcript:
It’s just before ten o’clock on the night of December 19, 2011. In a house near Bryan, Texas, the gentle patter of light rain is suddenly interrupted by a sound like an explosion-loud and violent-but not like thunder. Outside, in what has now become a deluge, the source of the noise soon becomes apparent. A short distance away-strung out and shattered into a dozen pieces, lie the barely recognizable remains of a light aircraft-it’s five occupants beyond help. Soon, emergency responders are on site documenting the scene, doing what has to be done. There’s one simple question on everyone’s mind: What went wrong? Watch the video to learn more!
Air Safety Institute; these accident case studies are excellent. Short and to the point...keep up the great work please.
I agree LMatters these are the best I have ever seen.
I agree as well, but I just realized this video is 6 years old. I’ve watched all of their case studies several times over (I still watch them to fall asleep to, even though I could recite most of them from memory)- but I haven’t noticed if they’ve put out any recently. I’m afraid to check, but I hope they’re still putting out content.
Knowing they’re up to 6 years old makes the production quality even more impressive, though.
I'm not even a pilot, just have gotten interested in these kinds of videos and flying in general. Very well done.
Couldn't agree more. Invaluable info as a pilot.
Niner Tango Charlie Fiver Fivish Finkle
I really appreciate how hard the controller worked to help the pilot. He gave weather info, advised vectors, and checked in without being overbearing. I’d appreciate someone like that having my back while flying
I do agree that the controller was working hard, but sometimes I think the controllers are too polite.
You probably will never know it, but through these episodes you are saving many many lives. I know this particular story I watched years ago and it did influence me on some decisions, making real time observations and decisions on what the radar was showing.
I’m pretty sure they know it…it’s why they do it after all.
Wish the main guy was still with us. It isn't the same without him.
As a storm chaser with over 35 years experience, 6-10 minutes, in a extreme;y convective environment, can be the difference between a weak shower and a severe thunderstorm, radar delays aside. Hell, I've seen instances where skies go from relatively clear to a tornadic supercell in only 20 minutes.
Actually, I live in Orlando, Florida, 3-4 minutes can be the difference between torrential rain and SUNSHINE, lol. We get very small cells here. One learns to fly around those. Good space between them.
Your job is chasing storms? Really?
In Cancun it’s 1 minute lol
@@MisterTechnologic
🤣🤣🤣 I've been there a couple of times! I know what you mean!
☀️🌧☀️🌧☀️🌧😅
4 minutes.
I learned this lesson in a way few can say they survived.
Flying with a friend out of Yreka/Montague, headed southwest over Scott Valley then west into the Marble Mountain Wilderness. Aircraft was a Cessna 177 Cardinal RG. Weather was clear at Y/M, with convective activity building above the wilderness on a line following the high ridges. Our altitude was 8,000ft, at which we both knew from experience we were capable of operating at safely, indefinitely.
As we approached Fort Jones in the Scott Valley we saw rapid buildup to our Northwest, above Marble Mountain. To the South, about Etna Summit, was some light activity moving north out of the Russian Wilderness. We angled south to go between it and the rapid buildup. As we closed in on the high ridges, activity to the South accelerated dramatically. We angled a bit north, skirting just to the South of Boulder Peak. Activity began building ahead of us, so we elected to turn back by circling Boulder Peak to the north and heading back east. Activity to the north had become ASTONISHINGLY fast building! We were watching it boil as we circled Boulder Peak, but at the time we were only getting moderate chop. As we rolled wings level immediately north of Boulder Peak we got snatched up by decending inflow and sucked into the storm from approximately five miles away. I was flying at the time, but the PIC and aircraft owner immediately took the controls back. I believe his skill saved our lives. I would have made different choices, and they would have been wrong.
He did not attempt to fight the inflow. He held wings level, keeping them at right angles to the wind as it pulled sideways into the base of the storm. He pitched up and went to full power to fight decending into terrain, which we cleared by several hundred feet at most. As the draft turned to the vertical he started rolling right, again seeking to keep the wings horizontal to the air flow. As we entered the bottom of the storm he was vertical to the ground and nose level. We went to instruments, which he was rated for and I was familiar with but not rated for. We came out of the side of the storm still wings vertical, nose level, at 14,000ft, about 30-45 seconds after entering the bottom of the clouds. TWELVE THOUSAND FEET PER MINUTE rate of ascent!!!!
He made an emergency power off decent to 8,000 away from the storm, and since we'd come out pointed almost due east no turns we're needed. As we crossed over the ridge back over Yreka he told me "something's not right. Something doesn't feel right." I will never forget those words. They still scare the shit out of me. He called SeaTac and issued a PanPan, requested fire and rescue at Y/M, and prepped us for an emergency landing. As is seemingly so common, it was the smoothest greaser of a landing he'd ever done. Three little chirps are all that told us we were down. We unassed the plane, waited for fire to confirm no fuel leaks, then got it towed to his hanger for inspection. The fire marshal, also a local pilot, saw it first. A seam was stretched in the bottom of the left wing. The owner went up that cowling like a shot, then waved me up the right wing.
There were four wrinkles in the top of the left wing, two in the right. That's why I say he saved our lives. He held us wingtip to the wind, thus reducing strain on the wings just enough for us to survive.
STAY AWAY FROM THUNDERSTORMS!!!!!
TLDR
@@ЏонМастерман Your loss.
How many thumbs up can I give this? I’d like to practice this scenario in the simulator.
I remember reading a story similar to this (Shaun Olinger's) where the pilot lowered his seat, tightened up is harness, and said to the narrator: "I suggest that you do the same." Then rotating vertically nose down, he pushed the throttle in all the way, and they were still going up thousands of feet per minute. But they did avoid getting pulled into the blender upstairs.
@@BobbyChastain It would definitely be interesting. I have FSX, but even setting it up as best I can it's really hard to simulate that kind of airflow. You'd need a full-blown training system. I'd say it's a good thing to practice, but I strongly prefer to just stay the hell away from them!!! Ever since that flight, as long as I'm on the ground TSs are a lot of fun. In the air, if I can see them I am NOT HAPPY!! 😨
It's hard to describe the kind of terror that flight induced in me. I don't mind clear turbulence, rain and wind no issue, but anywhere near clouds or convective activity and I'm looking for a spot to put my feet down.
Be smart, be safe, be careful. Old vs bold and all that.
Anyone who installs a NEXRAD display in their plane should be required to watch this video before they can use it.
With ADS-B weather now, pretty much everyone has NEXRAD onboard.
Agreed. The AOPA discusses the system information lag in one of its online courses. I'm sure it is in the information when the unit is sold. Not everybody notices, though.
That box provided him with lousy info and lulled him into complacency. There is nothing wrong with being a wuss and simply not taking off. There was everything wrong with this flight. "Always leave yourself an out" didn't apply to this case. I feel horribly for his passengers and extended family.
@@lbowsk in defence of the pilot, you have no idea why he took off in the first place. everything happens for a reason and for some that reason means more than to others. and the info wasn't lousy, it just has a known time delay and whether he knew about that delay or not, we still don't know why he took off to begin with let alone what he was intending to do at the other end.
He was likely doing his best for his passengers and family as well as for himself but IMO left himself too much to do.
A more prudent pilot would probably land somewhere else for a few hours, have a break and take off again when the storm wasn't such a great risk to be within 10 miles of but perhaps he was taking a child with cancer to treatment or something. Who knows...
@@SilverCanary1 INSTEAD, two kids DIED.
Never, ever try to thread the needle of a storm when you can't see the storm. Give it a wide birth and when in doubt land and wait it out. Better to be on the ground wishing you were in the air than in the air wishing you were on the ground, and T-storms are much nicer to watch from a hotel room window.
berth
I love that " better to be on the ground...." statement. So simple but so true. This channel is amazing. It amazes me that some of these private pilots are so clueless, especially with these dangerous weather situations. In this case, even the ATC is extremely concerned. This was totally avoidable.
Absolute fact
Remember, you’re in the airplane, the controller is in his office. They can advise you till the cows come home, but they can’t really stop you.
@smakfu Air France 447.......
I flew my Piper Archer into a severe summer pop-up thunderstorm, and nearly was killed. God help me get out of that soup, and after that, I wouldn’t even fly if a drizzle was predicted by the weatherman.
As we'd say on tugboats towing oil, "The schedule is more flexible than the bow"
@Kilo Byte thanks great info!
@M Detlef I think you're missing the point. He's saying its better to be late then try and rush something and something way worse than being late happens.
@M Detlef if you'd said "pull over" perhaps just one person other than you would have got the joke. A sane person would think that a pilot would stop by landing somewhere, which could have made a big difference in this sad story. And he had maps and an autopilot and a GPS, but with weather infront of him and having flown for 9 hours, and given that he was relatively inexperienced he may not have adequately prepared enough alternative destinations to be comfortable picking one while flying in a situation that needed his full concentration (autopilot would not fly through that stuff I expect). your attempt at a joke was 2/10 and 5 people died in this crash in case you hadn't forgotten
Tommy Petraglia how is this even remotely related?
@@TheMarioMen1 It's a common saying among merchant sailors. It just means that you shouldn't risk your life just because you're in a rush to get somewhere. A great many pilots have died from flying into situations they weren't trained for or experienced in simply because they have that mindset of needing to get somewhere, they've got a schedule to keep. "The schedule is more flexible than the bow" just means that you can always reschedule stuff, but you can't always correct a bad situation before it turns to disaster. If in doubt, stay on the ground.
Single engine IFR, at night, around convective sigmets of fast moving thunderstorms, no on board radar but with nexrad and relying on it to avoid weather. If these are not red flags for any pilot, I don’t know what is. These are hard lessons to be learned and it is not uncommon.
controllers should not be overbearing but i dunno when dealing with a GA in the sh-- they could have lightly suggested nearby airports to the east. and i imagine all controllers involved in this now do that even if it isn't SOP
"play it by ear" is for musicians, not pilots
Yeah and the weather was called "extreme" ... should've gotten the hell outta there right then
As a musician, I prefer to have the sheet music...prevents disaster
@@Sshooter444 As a shitty musician, I wish I were capable of playing by ear.
That's good I like that.
Bloodrock check it out.
The controller did his best. More helpful and caring than some others we've heard in crash cases, IMO.
6:00 - Thunderstorm is a bad word, severe is even worse, but 'extreme' means GTFO. If ATC is ever talking about 'extreme' anything, put whatever it is at your 6 o'clock and paddle faster.
Hahahahaha, I have read your post over and over and over, I just can’t stop laughing. You nailed it. I just don’t understand what this pilot was thinking.
In my yrs of experience if its moderate, stay far away. 25 miles and know the direction of the storms. The wind is that hidden danger you won't see unless in the desert southwest where lots of dust will show the gust front or micro burst from the storms. If there's severe, you cancel the flight until it passes. There are now more than ever, GA single engine and small multi engine pilots that are some of the biggest idiots Ive ever seen and met. That treat flying like its no big deal. It IS A BIG DEAL. As a pilot, weather is 90% your office. Respect it, study it like your life depends on it because it does or you'll pay the price.
ATC needs to have the balls to say get the hell out of there or you will die.
AL this might be a dumb question but why can’t small aircraft have a huge parachute that can slow the fall, plus parachutes for the passengers to jump during the fall?
no further west if these videos are accurate, it seems the parachutes never deploy before crash landing and fatality rate is 100% in these situations. So it seems like never being in that position in the first place is better than navigating through that hell.
9 hours in that tiny plane, even on the best of days, would have been something I’d no subject my family to. Hell, 9 hours on a 767 and I’m ready to GTF outta there.
I can't even drive my truck on the highway for more than two hours before stopping to stretch my legs. That's why we don't go on long flights to Europe: I just can't stand the sitting.
Yea, I agree, that’s rough. I would cramp up after a while. I prefer to drive because I can stop every few hours and grab a snack and drink, especially in bad weather. I don’t like flying in bad wealthier.
Better than 30h of driving to go the same distance
@Grace Jackson I would assume either bottles or diapers, same as in those 20h long traffic jams in China
9 hours on a wide body is too much for you? hahahah awww
To be this reckless with your family on-board is sickening.
agreed
Someone in another video said it best: "Never take your family anywhere unless you've had several hundred hours IFR in your log".
@@jturie overall i disagree, im not sure if youre a pilot or not but that request is nuts. I agree that he should have had more experience, should have known his systems better, should have recognized get thereitis and shouldnt have landed well before the thunderstorms and gotten a hotel. But hundreds of hours of instrument is a commercial pilot task especially for your average pilot.
@@JohnDole good points.
Nine hours of high altitude flight, fatigue, hypoxia, and frustrated family members nagging or complaing or needing a bathroom or stretch ugh. Just divert away from the storm and take a break at the nearest airfield dont risk flying wven longer.
A night spent in a crappy motel could have prevented this. Takeoffs are optional, landings are mandatory. It's a shame so many pilots don't get this until they're up there and in trouble.
Yep, classic case of "Get There- Itis".....impatience
Night flight during IFR near storms with no on board real-time weather radar. Poor risk management with distance margins from weather. Very educational for me.
Many years flying heavy jets at high altitude taught me about the "special theory of thunderstorm relativity" . The closer you are to thunderstorms the more time seems to slow down and the longer it seems to take to get around them.
Convective weather flying has rules.
Rule 1 do not fly into a thunderstorm. Rule 2 you never try to fly blind around convective weather without radar. Rule 3 thunderstorms can reach out and touch you an incredible distance from the storm. Rule 4 weather radar will not always keep you from entering the bad area so give your self lots of room. Rule 5 do not break rules 1 through 4. say it again do not break rule 1 through 4.
you fly heavy jets at high altitude... ?? ..and yet despite having such knowledge you still watch videos like this.. i wonder what would be if Asian and African commercial pilots would be interested in learning more , i guess they would eventually find out how to manually trim the plane..
John Justjohn The video and the OP have nothing to do with Asian and African pilots. Your forceful interjection of this topic to insult pilots of those continents shows your ignorance, immaturity, total lack of respect and empathy for life’s lost. Congratulations on achieving a special level of stupid.
@@Vasu_Polu it has to do with the comment...man has large knowledge as commercial pilot and he never stopped learning, he is indeed great pilot compared to someone who stalls a jet and kills everyone on board or someone who doesnt know how to manually trim..other words asian and african pilots dont know basics of flying..or media lies and that never happened..
@@johnjustjohn8168 You are a Jackass sir. Pitiful really. American pilots are as good as any other to prang pefectly serviceable aircrafts, like the latest one in Texas you know.
@@johnjustjohn8168 Bigot Alert!
Couldn't wait to inject ethnicity into a WEATHER related accident analysis.
It's been 25 years ago, but I was doing touch and goes with a friend of mine one evening. As I was on final, I could see off in the distance a huge storm with lighting. My friend said "let's do one more touch and go". I knew that was a really bad idea, so I landed and we parked the 172 that we were in. It wasn't long after we got it tied down that the storm was on us. I don't know what it is that makes some people want to dangle their toes off the edge of a cliff. Personally, I think that life is precious and we shouldn't waste it...or risk losing it by making foolish choices.
Dan Stephens I’ll bet your friend is dead by now...
The help that was offered this pilot throughout was fantastic.
@ 5:57 "without getting too much farther away from the airport" aka "get there itis" fatal thinking
Its called "gotta get thereitis" and it's killed a many pilot.
@@badmonkey2222 gotta get there itis or get there itis- same thing
He may have had fuel concerns.
Aaron He doesn’t have any now.
Ms. Daisy being a new student pilot with 10hrs under the controls, I could never see myself put anyone (including myself) in such a dangerous situation. Yes, we never know what may happen to us at any given moment, but I am not going to build the odds against me, nor anyone. I hope I maintain this mindset after my IFR and my commercial. A lot of responsibilities
One of the things I took away from this - the Air Traffic Control service in the USA is exceptional. For the sake of your country, air safety and the safety of those on the ground, please, please don't privatise this world-class resource. Yours, a British private pilot flying in the USA.
Exactly what I've taken away from watching these videos. I am in the process of getting my private license. Its also astonishing how many are reluctant to seek help out of...pride I guess? I know my instructors have covered this, but not as decisively as I would think after watching these. I guess you could argue that experience has worked against the pilot in these cases- not seeking help from a false sense of ability one could argue. That being said I think it should be of the utmost importance to make it clear to new pilots like myself how crucial it is to have the ability to override ones ego and seek help when needed. I know that when you're new, or even perhaps for GA pilots who aren't in the air frequently, that ATC can be intimidating even cold sometimes. I will take a scolding or a few moments of condescending discourse over becoming a statistic any day personally. Even then the majority of ATC can pick out a newbie like myself and adjust accordingly
Absolutely agree!!
Right on! Government involvement fucks up EVERYTHING IT TOUCHES AND EVERYTHING IT HAS EVER TOUCHED!!! The US Post office is a icon of DISASTER!!! The DOJ, FBI and countless other agencies that are run by the CORRUPT US Gov't are all disasters! Private industry works because they have to run a good ship or face bankruptcy. Private industry could be even better if the leftist nut jobs in gov't didn't require lazy losers to be hired under affirmative action bullshit programs that are nothing more than welfare for scumbags. Fuck the Government! It is run by stupid, incompetent, corrupt criminal LOSERS!!!
So America is socialist now? Lol.
So it takes that long to get weather 8 minutes from source to pilot? I can't speak for anyone else but it seems to me in view of the actual technological capabilities existing today that ours in an archaic system. Is the British system private?
In Naval Aviator training we were taught to stay away from thunderstorms. Or if we find ourselves in one, to slow to "thunderstorm penetration speed" which is the same as tactical maneuver speed. That way, the wing stalls before an structural damage occurs. Fortunately, the "stay away" idea always worked for me.
Yeah , I’d bet a dime to a dollar that being tired and eager to get to his destination he was still at cruise speed ,rather than Va which would have given him some protection against up/downdrafts and maybe stalled his wing instead instead of chopping it off.
@@davidwhite8633another case of "must get there"-itis. Bad enough with people on the roads, but in the air it ends so much worse
Why does the plane experience“air speed building rapidly” as it passes through descent?
Gravity. If the descent is a thunderstorm downdraft, airspeed would be unaffected because the downward vector would be with the airmass rather than through it. @@happyweimermom8748
@@happyweimermom8748gravity? 😂
This narrator is fantastic. A professional.
"Get there late, but get there." - Love Story
another version of that which i like is "better late than dead on time"
isn't he just? I could listen to him all day
Just getting into flying, lessons learnt may save my life some day. these guys did not die in vain now, thanks to you. thank you.
Every instructor I have ever flew with. Has started their flight into convective weather story with - “the one time” I flew into a thunderstorm…
I pictured his wife and brother being anxious about the storm, but ultimately trusting that the pilot would deliver them safely to their destination, knowing that he would never do anything to endanger his family...
Lack of common sense, over-reliance on gadgets, little or no experience puts you in same situation. Amazing.
As a "rusty pilot," I'm in process of getting back in the air. Part of that includes working through the AOPA's online courses, including this one. These case studies are sobering, tragic, and thought provoking. Some should be mandated by the FAA.
good on ya for re-engaging study material!
Too many pilots ONLY consider VFR and discount convection.
what we all can do is benefit from these incidents and learn from them.My father, a naval aviator told me "It's better to learn from others mistakes instead of your own."
You'll generally survive learning the mistakes of others, not so much with your own.
@@Keys879 lolz
I refuse to to take off in any weather...mainly because I'm not a pilot.
Ha! ;-)
Good one 👍
instantrimshot.com/
I go one better..I don’t with one engine piloted by amateurs.
Me too. Still haven't died in an air crash either
When I hear "children" as passengers of a fatal flight, my stomach hurts.
@@willoughby1888 My Lord! A plane with seating for 8 filled with 12 damn people and no balance calculations performed.
@@willoughby1888 The Wiki entry said the pilot was a military pilot used to having a load master taking care of weight calculations as well as having very few hours on the type. Compounding that, he had few hours on conventional multi-engine. The article seems to imply he'd flown centerline thrust configurations, so I'd guess he flew push-pulls like O-2s in the military, maybe.
But, yeah, your point is taken on the whole faith thing. The insurance checkbox for "Christian" sounds like an urban myth to me but fascinating if true. What you say reminds me of the fable about a guy praying for help in a flood, yet he turns down all assistance offered, such as from a fellow in a rowboat, and ends up perishing. He figured God was supposed to save him through some spectacular miracle, when it was actually God sending help to him the whole time, the lesson being "God helps those who help themselves"...etc.
@@willoughby1888 Wow, can't believe that insurance thing is real! Will read up. I hadn't heard of "The Golden Windows", but I just read it online and found it an especially valuable lesson as well as a beautiful story - definitely one of the better ones. All I know is, you can't take any YT interactions too personally. Anyone can find being an asshole too easy online, but, fo some people, it's their dedicated hobby. Still, you can have a decent conversation once in a blue moon. I recommend Twitter, actually. It's got its own culture and conventions to get accustomed to, but there's definite potential there if you're looking for someone to talk to every now and again. Anyway, as my grandma was always fond of saying, "Have fun, BUT LEARN." Solid advice if you ask me.
@@willoughby1888 Yeah, I was unable to find anything either. I'm sure that the right search terms have to turn something up, but that's also impossible if you don't know the details. And I don't know the details, or I wouldn't be looking for them! It wouldn't surprise me in the least if any insurance companies involved paid a lot of good money to sanitize Google as well as they could so that results wouldn't easily come up.
then you probly are gonna throw up after hearing about the crash that happend at travis afb during the vietnam war they were transporting a entire plane of vietnamese orphaned babies and young children and crashed on take blowing up killing every one on board now that is sum there aint no god feeling type shit
night, convective sigmet, piston single: I'm out.
right, it's suicidal
Bad Santa no aircraft should be flying in sigmets short of military and rescue operators, never mind convective sigmets! Crazy.
Homicidal too. Lets not forget the innocent folks traveling with that guy.
Homicidal too. Lets not forget the innocent folks traveling with that gay.
Amen, the risk is too great.
Used to have a layover in Alaska.... I'm a flight attendant for Delta and was told by my FA crewmates that we can get a free ride to the mountains because they want us to talk about them with our passengers for more business.
I never went with them, the next day I was asked why.... I asked my crewmates how old the pilot was... young, very young may be 22...
I told my crewmate that he can build up his hours on someone else's lives, not mine. Another word, if he has a ton of hours and older, he would have been flying for Delta, not fly by night operator.
I flew for the same flight school a year ago. We were taught this accident in one of our safety classes.
A tragic story, but excellently explained. The stark reality of the raw power of nature is always formidable.
When I was a single man I would think the same way he did. But man. You’ve got kids (and they’re with you!). I’m like a little old lady now. No risk taking
As someone who has a great interest in aviation but who has not flown it’s crazy how different my perception is of aviation incidents after watching these videos. I always imagined that the cause of small plane crashes would be failure of engine or control systems. But in these case studies 90% of the aircraft were completely fine mechanically when they went down, and even the ones who did have issues seemed to be more than land-able had they been in different scenarios. Weather, terrain, prioritization and a touch of bad luck seems to be the fatal mixture here.
You're right.
Fuel exhaustion or continued flight into IMC are main causes of ga accidents : ie pilot error.
Most air accidents are indeed caused by pilot error. The more videos I watch, the more I personally feel it's complacency or the pilot becoming over-confident and over-stating their skills. As a student pilot with 35 hours I've been taught how to land in a field if the engine fails, what to do in the event I fly into cloud without realising, how to spot the signs that there might be an issue before it becomes an issue. None of those procedures will help me if I fly dangerously close to a storm and think I'll be ok.
Only yesterday I was talking to a client of mine who says "I would really love to fly, but I'd worry about an emergency situation." Pilots are well trained in doing so and I believe most accidents can be prevented. I also compared it to learning to drive - we're only taught how to stop a car rapidly if necessary. We're not (in the UK at least) taught how to handle adverse road conditions. It's not a test requirement to know how to prevent an incipient spin turning into a full uncontrollable spin that could flip you into other traffic - which I find odd. Flying is statistically many times safer than driving - and this is a very big reason, I feel.
I would much rather land the plane, wait, and be alive to tell the story tomorrow than thinking I'll be okay, and taking a nose-dive into the dirt.
wow man, well said.
+PIAviation Thing is that a PPL doesn't quality you to fly in IMC on it's own either, you need an instrument rating for that. The problem I see with driving licences is that there is no legal requirement to actually take one of the advanced driving courses that does cover operation in adverse weather before legally being permitted to drive in averse weather conditions. Considering how common continued driving into adverse weather conditions is as a cause of road traffic deaths perhaps it's about time there was a licencing category for that.
This guy is acting the fool with his family on board. UNBELIEVABLE.
Get-Thereitis.
@@TheBeingReal perfect example.
Another factor was night time. And Getthereitis.
It shouldn't have based on his flight experience. And he was calm enough on the radio. What got him into trouble is his confidence in his NexRad information overlay and not listening to ATC. I'm in agreement with the assessment explained in this video. 6 to 8 minutes is a hell of a long latency between updates when a storm is moving at 40+ knots and you're already flying into it at less than 100 Knots ground speed. That's what got this pilot in trouble While I agree, if this was a day trip the storm would have been obvious, that's not how we, as pilots, are supposed to be trained for IMC vectors. And when a controller is giving you real time updates and recommended course changes, damn.... take it!
Another one was speed ,had he slowed down instead of going faster when he hit the storm could have prevented his plane from breaking apart , fear ,cockiness and lack of knowledge killed many rich aviators .
@@obiecanobie919 yes
Some of the same crazy licensed drivers on the highways are the same crazy pilots in the skies.
Not the same on any level!
Yep, you nailed it.
Rarely, the training and self-selection is far better. But I agree, it can happen. We've all done stupid things, it is just the margins in flying are thinner, so personal standards have to be higher, which they usually are. Most of the time that is realized, but no one is perfect. I think of Scott Crossfield, a retired X-15 pilot who reached the edge of space. With bad judgment he flew his Cessna into a thunderstorm. On the other hand no one hears of the thousands of daily general aviation flights that land without incident-the vast majority of pilots are always conservative, and not close to crazy. I guess the same could be said for physicians, attorneys, or any other group that requires serious training.
I had a friend of mine, private pilot, make the same remark a few years ago.
@@copperheadh1052
Did you fly for Southern Air or Four Aces Air in the early '70s? Perhaps near Vientiane? I remember that call sign from a ThunderPig based out of L-19
Very depressing to listen to this but so extremely valuable as a pilot myself. These accounts definitely save lives, just a good reminder for me to keep pride in check, do a self assessment remember the human factors training.
The more of these Videos I watch the more I get the feeling that most of the time an over-confidential Pilot is the fault.
I'm not a pilot, i'm just interested in aviation
I hear ya bro...
An interest is the hook.
We have a saying. There are old pilots, and there are bold pilots, but there are no old, bold pilots.
I would say 9/10 times the crash is caused by pilot error, and 2/3 of those are that the pilot got in over their head and decided to push on anyway. Outside of a freak accident, almost every crash is caused by a chain of bad decisions that lead to the scene of the crash. The sad part is that if at any point in the chain the pilot changes their decision before the fatal link the flight ends safely on the runway. It is tragic, but the best thing to do is learn the lesson well and not get into the mindset that will start the first link on the chain.
That being said, if you are interested, there are plenty of flight schools out there and quite a few flying clubs that will mitigate a lot of the cost to flying.
I'm very new to flying. In training we flew into windy weather, weather that the instructor said only he will land in. We had 20kt crosswind on landing. No way in hell would I fly in bad weather as I got a lot of respect flying on this very windy day.
"Play it by ear" gave me chills. That was the point of doomed.
I dread to think of the terror the family must have gone through knowing they were about to perish. Oh dear.. Terrible story.
Indeed. One wonders, though, how many similar experiences they had in the past and how accustomed they were to flying into bad weather with this pilot. In any case, he was likely reassuring them how safe they were and how there was no danger - until, of course, it was too late. Of course, it was too late the moment the pilot decided he was going to play chicken with a bad thunderstorm.
Cant even imagine what the kids were going thru. Horrific !!!
@Rata 4U So So sorry to hear that. My Mother-inlaw has Dementia, and it's no joke for the family. A lot of pain watching your love ones suffering like that. Lost in their on home. We promised her we would not take her out of her home. It's literally killing my poor wife. But you have to make those sacrifices for your one and only mom or dad.
Amen. The left wing broke off! Horrible!
@Rata 4U No, no they didn't. Shitting your pants for 8,000' to the ground inside a thunderstorm until you smash into the ground is not dying well. Most deaths are not "dying well". Most deaths suck, it's just that we aren't there to see it.
Watching and listening to these is wrenching.
I look at it this way... You kinda gotta be afraid to fly to be a safe pilot. This guy wasn't afraid to fly. 😞
As the old saying goes ., one can learn to fly in 50 - 60 hours .. it can take the rest of your life to learn when NOT to fly .. this from an 83 yr old 12,000 hr ATP, CFII, MEI, with 21 years of corporate flying, single pilot ..mostly Navajo and the last 6 years in a Cheyenne II, with Adv. & Inst. Grnd Instructors ratings
why do a lot of you feel you have to opine your experience? there's no way we can verify this so we just assume you're lying. if what you're saying is so wise (which it is) it'll be wise on its own
Stay at least 20 miles from thunderstorms. Also, landing would not have made him very late as the storm was moving quick.
WELL SAID !
That's good advice that can save lives.
20 miles? I used to track them at 5.
Bartonovich52 We will be watching the next crash analysis video on you.
How about 50 miles. That's my minimum. I learned my lesson as a student!!
This one is really haunting, just a terrifying and horrible way to die. Yet so preventable.
Messing with bad weather is like petting a rattlesnake.
Land. Get a motel 6. Start fresh tomorrow
Ok but the point is: LAND......
Hahaha, I like your post
@Jeffrey Simmons lol
TOPSPOT why can’t they jump out with parachutes?
@Jeffrey Simmons Yeah, if motel 6 is the only option, death is preferable.
:P
I'm a former controller and I can't possibly see who could fault in any way this controller. Yes, our first mission is safety. I don't know what you, your mom, or George Bush are capable in any aircraft. His first statement after giving the altimeter was the bad weather. The pilot acknowledged. CONVECTIVE SIGMETS were issued. When the controller shift changed, they even discussed his choices. We don't fly the plane, the pilot does. The second controller told him not to turn to 250 when he wanted to and then warned him of the extreme cell 8 miles out. They agreed on his right turn, when able, to TSTC. I hate extra communications and asking POB is not a factor unless there is an emergency or filing a flight plan. I'm not flying and I can only give you my professional opinion based on training & experience while controlling.
What an outstanding intro. The literature is spot on
I was in a similar situation not too long ago. I was trying to get from KORL to KGNV when the weather deteriorated to the north, so I opted to go west to KSPG. Two massive cells were building during this time and left a small gap through which aircraft could safely fly. ATC even said he had gotten another aircraft through it, but I opted not to take the chance. I could only see it on NEXRAD and it looked like the gap may have been closing. Instead, I chose to go South where I finally got to KSEF. Still landed. Still had breakfast. Still managed to fly home. Don't take unnecessary risks.
You guys need to do more of these!
The brother in law was a personal friend of mine. I'm also a Private Pilot and this hit me and the family hard.
Damn. Sorry to hear that.
Day one of pilot training...
There are old pilots and there are bold pilots, but there are no old, bold pilots.
Best info regarding flying I was ever given
My uncle had a push-pull Cessna and would go all the way back on the runway to take off. He passed the tower well into the air and about level with the controllers. ATC would say, “Got enough runway there Cam?” And Uncle Cam would say, “Can’t use runway you don’t have.” This was a ritual repeated every flight.
Excellent presentation. This channel should be made mandatory viewing for student pilots prior to check ride.
Thanks for these videos, ASI. Excellent learning tools. And God bless those we lost and their families. We can honor them by learning from them.
I don't understand this guy at all. Family on board. Light weight, single engine and he wants to play 'just the tip' with a storm at night. Nexrad or not, this was complete buffoonary. Nexrad wasn't created so you can shoot the gap. It was created so you can say "Hey. There's storm 50 miles ahead. Maybe I should land now and not fly my family into El Nino." This is one of those situations where I think Center should have the authority to say "Flying clearance cancelled. Land your shit immediately."
I think the technology made it worse, at least in this case. Our technology makes us overconfident. Ancient generations worshiped the weather, we dismiss it.
Next time you see convective weather building, take your GPS and whatever weather uplink you use in your airplane. Then watch what the differences between what your uplink is painting and what you are experiencing on the ground. I do this all the time and the difference's are wildly apparent. I have seen it so different that sometimes the monster cell passes me and the uplink shows it still didn't reach my position. Know the limitations of your weather uplink and in GA never use it to pick through ANY bad weather especially CONVECTIVE! I did this once in my car during convective activity and traveling at 70 mph its even more dramatic.
Agree. Part of the problem is that NEXRAD displays (aviation or not) usually do not accurately convey the delay. I'm not sure why.
whut you use a weather radar when you drive? where tf you driving thru, middle east in a sandstorm? lol i thought i was intense for checking the doppler on my home computer before driving 45 minutes to the next town
So sad. A horrific accident. Well done analysis. Pilot in Georgia refused a corporate night flight, said the weather was too bad, wait until morning. They were mad at him. That night, some plane had an accident. The pilot departed the next morning without incident, the weather had past. Late, but arrived at destination safely.
Bold move by the pilot.... Especially with his family on board....
"The sun always shines on the wreckage" .......Ernest Gann
True enough, although the dead neither notice nor care.
Another of his - “In reference to flying through thunderstorms; "A pilot may earn his full pay for that year in less than two minutes. At the time of incident he would gladly return the entire amount for the privilege of being elsewhere.”
@@antonystringfellow5152 Stringfellow, love that name.
I so wish George Perry was still at the home of the safety Institute and producing fresh videos. What a change his departure has made
These videos are hard to watch but they are worth their weight in gold.
14 hours of actual means limited experience in these conditions. I think get homeitis and over confidence in his abilities played a big part. The latency in the radar display would be something that he should have known and not tried to skirt the weather unless he could see it. Who among us have not flown into weather more severe than we expected? I would be lying if I said I didn't but attitude flying is what I was taught in both civilian and military flying and it works.
I have humbled myself a number of times in light civilian aircraft by landing spending the night and pressing on the next day. I never felt like a lessor pilot for doing that and it isn't the end of the world to be a little late getting to your destination....
Always better to be safe than sorry.
Good attitude
Your response to this tragedy is very humbling, and spot on. So glad to know you probably wont be on Kathryns Report anytime soon. Fly safe!
It never ceases to amaze me how many pilot's push thier luck and try to skirt convective weather AT NIGHT and the attitudes ALLOT of them have arrogant and pompous..now who are you impressing by risking other people's lives for your own self gratification and self centeredmness because the only person that will notice is yourself it's one thing about ALLOT off pilot's that irks the shit out of me..Just land and have a meal and coffee and wait for the weather to pass your pride will live another day instead of being splatterd all over some guys corn field along with your wife and kids who do not deserve that. When he said oh i don't wanna get to far south away from the airport i knew he was fked then
Better to be late getting there than not at all..
That was an awesome video. I am a student of the Jeppesen system (Boring and dull, and time consuming) and let me say that this was very informative, direct, without any fluff and made sense. Unfortunately, it was a loss for that family, but this will help others learn about systems and electronics to help avoid this unfortunate situation in the future.
I wish you guys make more of these videos. They are extremely informative .
“Better late than Never “ should always supersede GetThere-itis
Complacency Kills - Take offs are optional - Landings are Mandatory
Very very sad. The pilot was to blame but unfortunately blame won't bring anyone back. Let's just use this to make sure it doesn't happen again.
It just did...
Always have a contingency plan in case weather is not cooperating. That's a must.
As soon as I VIEWED the line of t-storms between the piper , AND his destination , I stopped watching the video . R I P family, especially the children
Should be mandatory viewing I all pilot training . Well done
Tops at FL450? Jesus. That's well into the stratosphere, higher than a jet airliner. Only the worst thunderstorms are capable of that--the kind you give a very wide berth.
they can fly at FL450 if certified to do so, but FL410 is more usual.
FL450 is not well into the stratosphere. The only clouds that manage to punch through the tropopause would be an overshooting top that would be in the 550 to 600 range. The startosphere is too stable to have any bad weather or any weather at all into it. If you go well into it, there is no clouds, just stability. I will agree that even a t-storm with tops at 450 can be extremely violent. Meteoroloy seems to be a novelty with pilots, mostly GA. It is not something to be taken lightly. Most pilots gain enough knowledge to answer questions right on a test, like the official rules of the road. They have no insticnt for it and it can and has and will lead to fatal mistakes. Stay safe up there people.
I was lucky to have 3 years of Aerospace in High School with 2 great teachers that were pilots.. We learned all about bad weather flying... I am still alive at 67 from all of the help my teachers gave me.. I owe them my life a few times..
I honestly don’t get these seemingly inexperienced pilots hauling their family around on long journeys.
By the way, these videos have one of the best narrators on UA-cam. Thank you!
Very sad story. I am always amazed at the poor decision making by my fellow pilots. Why would anyone leave on a 10 hour trip at 2pm knowing there is weather on your route. He absolutely should have made 2 five hour legs and flown in daylight!!! At the very least, he should have landed before he got anywhere near that weather. Too bad so many had to die.
total push-on-itus here, could have just diverted to houston executive and drive the 3 hours, but they already flew 9 and the drive prob woulda been 12 hours total anyway so the pilot def didn't want to make an ass out of himself or something
Single engine non turbo prop at night.... No Thank You!
@@caddiskingI fly single engine non-turboprop IFR at night, and I’ve lost two engines. Life is full of risks. Training is the skill you need to get out alive. But prior preparation is what gives you plans you can execute to put your training to good use. There’s nothing inherently more “dangerous”, you just need a heck of a lot more plan Bs and Cs…and be dang sure you can call on that skill if needed.
That being said, if my choice is between night IMC or on the ground sipping a cold brew at a local watering hole in some middle of nowhere town until the next morning, my a** will be in a barstool.
I'm 16 and have no interest in becoming a pilot BUT I CAN'T STOP WATCHING THESE.
I just stumbled on this series of accident videos and find it to be really educational. I happen to have 20,000 hours in transport category aircraft but have almost zero experience with light GA flying. What comes through clearly in the lessons is a healthy respect for weather. The size of the airplane does not free a pilot from weather concerns. The information concerning NEXRAD weather displays is something I suspect is not well known.
So, so tragic. As always, very well put-together.
He was trying to "find a hole" in the extreme, fast-moving weather using laggy navigation and a small one engine aircraft... Is anyone surprised at the outcome? Instead of landing or getting the hell out of the area...
Watching and discussing videos like this one should be a part of ppl training
I remember my 1st day in Private Pilot ground school... The instructor puts up a picture of a gigantic thunderstorm and then says to us: "Do you see this? STAY AWAY from them, it will ruin your whole day..."
when i learnt to fly i was given a book called meteorology, the instructor held the book and said to me eye to eye...i can teach you to fly but this book will save your life a dozen times. and up to no.3 now
I live in Florida and in the spring and summer, when you see those clouds building, you stay on the ground. Flying during that time is for the heavys and they steer around that stuff.
We were on our way to Orlando in a heavy commercial plane and we landed in, I think, Saint Pete. The flight to Orlando took about 15 minutes. 🤪🤪
As a long-time GA pilot, I love these cases you present, there is ALWAYS something one can learn or take away from them, if to merely remind you of untoward things that can happen and that you want t avoid! Thanks, good work!
Convective SIGMETs are not issued in Alaska. Thunderstorms (usually just "air mass" type storms) are issued in CWA Center Weather Advisory form. Also, I know a guy who flew a C310 through a thunderstorm in Illinois at 10,000 feet and got a 9,000 foot per minute downdraft and was spit out the bottom of a cloud about 500 feet AGL. He's lucky to be alive. A C90 King Air pilot once told me he got over $100,000 hail damage from a storm cell 20 miles away. Hail shot up to the jetstream and was carried to him. Give storms lots of space. Good video.
I have unlimited respect for storms after watching an airline pilot's talk on microburst escape maneuvers. The fact that weather exists which requires a prolonged (minutes!) max-performance climb from a DC-10 at landing weight, and STILL FORCES A SINK RATE... I had no idea. And to think that they can appear out of a calm flying day to that level of intensity, in the time it takes those guys to do an approach. I don't know exactly how much weather it takes to smash a C172 into the ground like a swatted fly, but I do know it's less than what it takes to do the same to a 767. That's all you need to know. A thunderstorm is like what you get after a hydrogen bomb or a big volcano goes off. Cessnas don't belong in mushroom clouds.
In NE California, we had an anxious professional man take off in a small plane, in bad winds. I was on the crew that picked up his remains in a nearby farm field. By the time we got to the crash site, the weather had mellowed out.
He had been warned. Just wait. And the girlfriend he was going to see, told him to wait. Better to have less time together, than NO time together.
Professional men such as doctors and lawyers often believe their skill and experience translates to other arenas--tragically.
when u want some ass, bro, you just want some ass
@@andredarin8966 The Sirrus is turning out to be the new "forked tailed doctor killer"
As private pilot one of the most valuable lessons learned about flying through weather, was during my time as a flight mech on C119's No on board weather radar,most flights below10k ,and most of the flying in tornado alley . Had some really hairy experiences passing through fronts ,and unintended flying into embedded TS..
Unless I miss my guess, ATC has the most accurate weather available in real time. Drop the ego and attitude, say "What is the best route you can see for me between here and there please" and follow their advice, or say "I'd like to route to the closest airport where I can wait out this storm please" .... both ways you're most likely to arrive alive.
Seems to me that the pilot assumed he was looking at the same radar as air traffic control. Is it possible he was simply unaware of the actual time lag?
What a clear and precise presentation. Thank you AOPA/Air Safety Institute
A saying I learned skydiving.... "Better to be on the ground wishing you were in the air; than in the air wishing you were on the ground". When in doubt chicken out!!!
This reveals the dynamic nature of flying and technology. Every feature that makes flying safer can also make it more dangerous if it’s not properly employed.
Devastating and scary. In the 70's and 80's we flew through thuds and it was stupid. Maneuvering speed is no good in a loss of control and pushing your luck in any airplane can break it.
That's so sad, thanks for keeping some much needed caution in flying
Excellent presentation.
Watching these videos reminds me why I'm never going to get in a single-engine/civilian-private aircraft